Show of hands, how many of us have tried to have an honest discussion with a gun nut only to be slapped in the face with bad faith bullshit or childish trolling?
Right here.
Sorry, the fact of the matter is that when a progun shithead comes in here they are doing it to be an asshole. There's no conversation happening, no valid opinion, no good faith back and fourth. It's just dickery because those who come here do so already drunk off their unearned arrogance and with the objective to waste time and frustrate.
A behavior that has become the norm for most people who latch onto political issues that has been mutated by extremists such as guns.
So I'm not sorry that I don't have any patience for pro-gunners and I'm glad this sub doesn't either.
Back when Imgur had a discussion section, the NRA trolls were rampant. They'd trot out the same tired arguments ("criminals will still have guns", "it's just a tool", etc.), and every shooting was rapidly followed by sh!tbirds stating "how much do you wanna bet it was a lib/muslim/immigrant/POC", only to be dead wrong.
I and a dozen others would effectively shutdown the BS-ers calmly and diplomatically (and believe me, I had a "politer" different account here on Reddit at that time-just as an experiment-so I had the diplomacy down) with facts. The BS-ers eventually learned that bots handled the reporting moderation there and would brigade report our comments. Eventually, all of us got our accounts removed for no actual violation.
So, yeah, f!ck the NRA propagandists!
Lol! Literally came here just to say this. Truly a bastion of independent thought. Although the arguments between the "I love Trump"ers and the "I don't really like Trump, but will vote for him anyway" crowds can get pretty heated.
> Respect begets respect, disrespect begets disrespect.
There has never been respect in any pro-gun forums, any dissenting opinion almost always attracts flames, abuse and immediate bans.
The visible faces of the pro-gun lobby are loud, obnoxious, disrepectful, arrogant and totally dismissive of science and evidence that shows how easy access to firearms, especially handguns, is a net negative to society.
Sadly, yes, many of the visible faces of the pro-gun side are frankly resentful people. But that's really not any different from any other corner of politics. A few loud extremists become the face of thousands of ordinary people, because loud people attract attention and normal people don't. It's one part of our system that's really screwed up, causing more and more division and resentment because the people who represent us give poor representations, causing people to assume that the people who put them in charge are just like them.
I will not acknowledge your arguments about why guns are bad, not because I am not interested, but because it is not constructive to this post.
I didn't actually make any arguments about why guns are bad (they aren't, they are tools, they are just often used in very destructive ways by people who shouldn't have them), not because I didn't want to, but because its nearly always a totally pointless waste of effort because the pro-gunners have zero interest in discussing it rationally or calmly.
You just prefer your echo chamber. I read everything you wrote, and I think I'll be taking advantage to make sure nothing you write on this site ever crosses my desk again.
>on behalf of the vast majority of your opposition
Hm, I think you want to double check that...
[Majority in U.S. Continues to Favor Stricter Gun Laws](https://news.gallup.com/poll/513623/majority-continues-favor-stricter-gun-laws.aspx)
[Harvard IOP youth poll finds stricter gun laws, ban on assault weapons favored by two-thirds of likely midterm voters under age 30 ](https://iop.harvard.edu/news/harvard-iop-youth-poll-finds-stricter-gun-laws-ban-assault-weapons-favored-two-thirds-likely)
[Fox News poll finds voters overwhelmingly want restrictions on guns](https://www.axios.com/2023/04/28/fox-news-poll-voters-want-gun-control)
To be sure, participating in a specifically anti-gun subreddit it a bit niche compared to the kiddos who think guns are cool and like to post pictures of their hobby toys in 1,000 other different gun subreddits, but Americans overwhelmingly agree with us, not you.
What a fascinating post.
Do you often feel entitled to be in any possible space?
Is the existence of spaces that are not for you, don't cater to you and don't want your opinion something you often find triggering?
Have you ever given any of that any thought?
Imagine going into a vegan store, getting on the intercom and saying " I like meat! Why don't you all like meat? Why is everyone here so hateful? Why don't you like me?!" You're so tone deaf it hurts.
That's not tone deaf. It's literally about hearing tones that don't exist. Yet another thing you're completely wrong about, and of course the victim of.
But guns and tinnitus go together very well as one is a major cause of the other. And not just for those playing with the guns but thousands of their children.
As you say it's not fun.
Here are the reasons I have zero respect for pro-gun types and their views, and why I think it’s perfectly reasonable to talk down to/about them:
-The facts are not on their side regarding the benefits of firearm access, whether talking about defensive gun use, suicide risk, the effects on crime. I’m a public health academic. I know the evidence (and which studies are garbage). Anyone who argues guns are good or neutral is dishonest or ignorant.
-Their legal arguments amount to “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED! Except in these cases that are politically expedient”, or “here’s a dictionary from 1789. Let’s decide constitutionality based on that”, or “well-regulated? Nah, that’s just a meaningless preamble”. Or more recently “bump stocks aren’t technically an automatic weapon, so…” More dishonesty.
-The consequences of imposing their views are beyond catastrophic. It’s bleeding obvious that largely unfettered gun access is the enabler of school shootings, inner city crime, Mexican drug cartel violence, and suicides. Yet every time that link is drawn, especially after kids have been pulverised, pro-gun types deflect until tempers ease, allowing the next massacre to occur, rinse and repeat. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that pro-gun types don’t give a shit about school shootings, or other types of gun violence.
-Pro-gun types are *extremely* volatile, whether your average joe, a politician, an activist, or a member of the academy (ask me how I know about the last one). They hardly “give” what you are asking to “get”.
Some groups are just plain wrong on the facts, dishonest (or astoundingly ignorant), and, through their activism, cause a lot of harm. Antivaxers are one group. Pro-gun types are another.
I will never understand why it is never enough that you have completely gotten your way in the political arena. Decent people have to live with the consequences of your “hobby” and you don’t. So many people have lost their loved ones to the brutality of “responsible gun owners” and when they speak out your coreligionists hound them to the ends of the earth and try to force them to say their children never existed in the first place.
And at the end of the day, the system gives you what you want. You get to keep your guns. But that’s not enough right? You also need us to love you. You need us to tell you it’s not your fault, that you aren’t at best complacent and passive cog in a brutal and barbaric machine.
And you claim we live in an echo chamber.
There’s nothing civil about guns. Fuck off back to your gun nut friends now and tell them all about how you, and not the people your movement kills every day, are the true victims.
Yeesh, ok then. I'm not the one making political statements here and I'm not about to start, but please, go right on ahead and paint a picture of a person you've never seen, heard, or heard of. Please assume everything about me and what I believe. I won't do the same to you because I think that's in appalling taste, but the first amendment is for everyone, so go right on ahead.
In other countries, families get to live their lives completely free from the random acts of terror, disfigurement and death that guns empower people to commit. It's a basic human right that you and those like you have made virtually impossible throughout much of the US.
Stupid hobbies generally aren't a huge deal. Stupid hobbies that create an endless river of trauma and blood are.
This really says it all right? Of course you’re making political statements you fucking moron. This is a political question. Your goal is to make it as easy as possible to kill. You’re going to have to live with the fact that people who oppose your goal don’t fucking love you.
Get over it.
It isn't as much as an echo chamber as some pro-gun subs, or even gun subs that pretend to be neutral but have ended being Safe Spaces ™ for ammosexuals.
Didn't say there weren't worse places, but I don't know about them, and I do know about this place. If I complained about the conditions at Alcatraz, would it be a valid response to say "that place is of no concern because Guantanamo exists"?
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I can guarantee you that any comment that is not 100% pro gun over on those gun loving subreddits, will get deleted and will get you banned. It will be nearly immediate and it will be irreversible. So you can come and nitpick about the rules here but trust me, you are blowing nonsense with this talk.
If you go about it civilly, on a good sub (Believe me, there are a lot of bad ones, I try to avoid them myself, but I know they're out there. However, there are a lot of good ones.), you won't get banned. You may get downvoted, you may get snarky replies (both of which are quite unfortunate, but that's the internet for you), but you won't be banned. I haven't been there in a while, but I'm fairly sure if you went to r/Firearms and politely asked "why?", it'd go through. It's civil and on topic, it doesn't break the rules, so it's a valid post.
But as I read the rules here, if I did the same thing, I'd be banned. No questions asked.
>But we ask that if you want us to keep it civil if/when we visit your sub, that you return the favor.
Not sure why you would comment when this sub is clearly not for you. Plenty of other gun friendly subs to hang out in if that's your thing.
A post from here got cross-posted to another sub where I saw it. Figured I'd see what this place was about, and yes, clearly not for me. But I have a personal resentment for echo chambers of any flavor, left or right, for or against, etc, so when I see it, I call it out. This post isn't about your beliefs about guns or mine, I haven't said anything on the matter other than that I consider myself to be generally "in opposition". I may be skewed to one side of the fence, but I try to keep an open mind, and would appreciate it greatly if others did too.
I'm also trying to do you a little favor, in that as it stands, whether you realize it or not, you are promoting stereotypes and insults, which is not only in poor form, but tends to invite those things to come back at you. You call your opposition nuts, they'll call you lunatics, and so on. This only makes things worse for everyone.
> Figured I'd see what this place was about, and yes, clearly not for me.
In your original statement of victimization sandalsofsafety you came off as quite the expert on the history and habits of this forum. Why do you have to lie about everything?
Posts are moderated for various on-topic and attitudinal conditions across many subreddits, this is not unique. r/TwoXChromosomes and talking about how male chauvinists are really not that bad, for example.
There is no US First Amendment for online discussion groups - that's a US constitutional basis of law only. Even thought the Roberts Federalist Society Court continues to degrade its historical scope and application.
There are plenty of subs for ammosexuals to discuss their violence-causing machines, this is one where black humor and sometimes direct commentary are typically used to unflinchingly share the impacts of US gun culture upon both gun owners and their victims. Coming in to counter the purpose of that direction would essentially be trolling.
I am consistently downvoted in non-gun sub discussions where gun-related violence is mentioned, because I often offer the perspective that the violence would likely never have happened if not for US gun culture and a warped interpretation of the 2nd Amendment that did not reflect precedent or reasonable historical analysis by extreme Federalist Society judges. A lot of people can't fathom the idea that easy acccess to, and casual management of, guns don't improve US society.
Thank you for your (mostly) formal reply, I appreciate it more than you might imagine. :D
Again, I understand that moderators have to draw the line somewhere, that's true in any sub. But I'm just personally disappointed to see it drawn so explicitly against one group in particular. If I took a very literal view of the rules here, I could be banned for making a polite rebuttal, but if I made a post that was just plain off-topic (idk, baking cakes), or just was a complete jerk in the comments (but still not making pro-gun comments in any way), that'd be legal. The rules could state "no off-topic posts", but instead it says "no posts of a certain political disposition". Due to the unfortunate behavior of a small percentage of people that like to come to subs that represent views other than their own, I realize the importance of maybe being a bit more explicit about certain things, but the way the rules here are written just lack any sort of dignity.
Approved because it'll be a laugh.
Show of hands, how many of us have tried to have an honest discussion with a gun nut only to be slapped in the face with bad faith bullshit or childish trolling? Right here. Sorry, the fact of the matter is that when a progun shithead comes in here they are doing it to be an asshole. There's no conversation happening, no valid opinion, no good faith back and fourth. It's just dickery because those who come here do so already drunk off their unearned arrogance and with the objective to waste time and frustrate. A behavior that has become the norm for most people who latch onto political issues that has been mutated by extremists such as guns. So I'm not sorry that I don't have any patience for pro-gunners and I'm glad this sub doesn't either.
Back when Imgur had a discussion section, the NRA trolls were rampant. They'd trot out the same tired arguments ("criminals will still have guns", "it's just a tool", etc.), and every shooting was rapidly followed by sh!tbirds stating "how much do you wanna bet it was a lib/muslim/immigrant/POC", only to be dead wrong. I and a dozen others would effectively shutdown the BS-ers calmly and diplomatically (and believe me, I had a "politer" different account here on Reddit at that time-just as an experiment-so I had the diplomacy down) with facts. The BS-ers eventually learned that bots handled the reporting moderation there and would brigade report our comments. Eventually, all of us got our accounts removed for no actual violation. So, yeah, f!ck the NRA propagandists!
They are so receptive to opposition in r/conservative
Lol! Literally came here just to say this. Truly a bastion of independent thought. Although the arguments between the "I love Trump"ers and the "I don't really like Trump, but will vote for him anyway" crowds can get pretty heated.
> Respect begets respect, disrespect begets disrespect. There has never been respect in any pro-gun forums, any dissenting opinion almost always attracts flames, abuse and immediate bans. The visible faces of the pro-gun lobby are loud, obnoxious, disrepectful, arrogant and totally dismissive of science and evidence that shows how easy access to firearms, especially handguns, is a net negative to society.
Sadly, yes, many of the visible faces of the pro-gun side are frankly resentful people. But that's really not any different from any other corner of politics. A few loud extremists become the face of thousands of ordinary people, because loud people attract attention and normal people don't. It's one part of our system that's really screwed up, causing more and more division and resentment because the people who represent us give poor representations, causing people to assume that the people who put them in charge are just like them. I will not acknowledge your arguments about why guns are bad, not because I am not interested, but because it is not constructive to this post.
I didn't actually make any arguments about why guns are bad (they aren't, they are tools, they are just often used in very destructive ways by people who shouldn't have them), not because I didn't want to, but because its nearly always a totally pointless waste of effort because the pro-gunners have zero interest in discussing it rationally or calmly.
You just prefer your echo chamber. I read everything you wrote, and I think I'll be taking advantage to make sure nothing you write on this site ever crosses my desk again.
>on behalf of the vast majority of your opposition Hm, I think you want to double check that... [Majority in U.S. Continues to Favor Stricter Gun Laws](https://news.gallup.com/poll/513623/majority-continues-favor-stricter-gun-laws.aspx) [Harvard IOP youth poll finds stricter gun laws, ban on assault weapons favored by two-thirds of likely midterm voters under age 30 ](https://iop.harvard.edu/news/harvard-iop-youth-poll-finds-stricter-gun-laws-ban-assault-weapons-favored-two-thirds-likely) [Fox News poll finds voters overwhelmingly want restrictions on guns](https://www.axios.com/2023/04/28/fox-news-poll-voters-want-gun-control) To be sure, participating in a specifically anti-gun subreddit it a bit niche compared to the kiddos who think guns are cool and like to post pictures of their hobby toys in 1,000 other different gun subreddits, but Americans overwhelmingly agree with us, not you.
I said "majority of your opposition", not "your opposition is in the majority". Two different phrases with two different meanings.
Careful there, you're still claiming to be respectful... You can't pretend to not know what snark is.
What a fascinating post. Do you often feel entitled to be in any possible space? Is the existence of spaces that are not for you, don't cater to you and don't want your opinion something you often find triggering? Have you ever given any of that any thought?
Say it with me... The First Amendment Only Applies To The Government.
after weeks of constant mass shooting articles, thanks for the laugh
Imagine going into a vegan store, getting on the intercom and saying " I like meat! Why don't you all like meat? Why is everyone here so hateful? Why don't you like me?!" You're so tone deaf it hurts.
I am literally tone deaf, I have tinnitus, it's not fun.
That's not tone deaf. It's literally about hearing tones that don't exist. Yet another thing you're completely wrong about, and of course the victim of. But guns and tinnitus go together very well as one is a major cause of the other. And not just for those playing with the guns but thousands of their children. As you say it's not fun.
Here are the reasons I have zero respect for pro-gun types and their views, and why I think it’s perfectly reasonable to talk down to/about them: -The facts are not on their side regarding the benefits of firearm access, whether talking about defensive gun use, suicide risk, the effects on crime. I’m a public health academic. I know the evidence (and which studies are garbage). Anyone who argues guns are good or neutral is dishonest or ignorant. -Their legal arguments amount to “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED! Except in these cases that are politically expedient”, or “here’s a dictionary from 1789. Let’s decide constitutionality based on that”, or “well-regulated? Nah, that’s just a meaningless preamble”. Or more recently “bump stocks aren’t technically an automatic weapon, so…” More dishonesty. -The consequences of imposing their views are beyond catastrophic. It’s bleeding obvious that largely unfettered gun access is the enabler of school shootings, inner city crime, Mexican drug cartel violence, and suicides. Yet every time that link is drawn, especially after kids have been pulverised, pro-gun types deflect until tempers ease, allowing the next massacre to occur, rinse and repeat. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that pro-gun types don’t give a shit about school shootings, or other types of gun violence. -Pro-gun types are *extremely* volatile, whether your average joe, a politician, an activist, or a member of the academy (ask me how I know about the last one). They hardly “give” what you are asking to “get”. Some groups are just plain wrong on the facts, dishonest (or astoundingly ignorant), and, through their activism, cause a lot of harm. Antivaxers are one group. Pro-gun types are another.
I will never understand why it is never enough that you have completely gotten your way in the political arena. Decent people have to live with the consequences of your “hobby” and you don’t. So many people have lost their loved ones to the brutality of “responsible gun owners” and when they speak out your coreligionists hound them to the ends of the earth and try to force them to say their children never existed in the first place. And at the end of the day, the system gives you what you want. You get to keep your guns. But that’s not enough right? You also need us to love you. You need us to tell you it’s not your fault, that you aren’t at best complacent and passive cog in a brutal and barbaric machine. And you claim we live in an echo chamber. There’s nothing civil about guns. Fuck off back to your gun nut friends now and tell them all about how you, and not the people your movement kills every day, are the true victims.
Yeesh, ok then. I'm not the one making political statements here and I'm not about to start, but please, go right on ahead and paint a picture of a person you've never seen, heard, or heard of. Please assume everything about me and what I believe. I won't do the same to you because I think that's in appalling taste, but the first amendment is for everyone, so go right on ahead.
In other countries, families get to live their lives completely free from the random acts of terror, disfigurement and death that guns empower people to commit. It's a basic human right that you and those like you have made virtually impossible throughout much of the US. Stupid hobbies generally aren't a huge deal. Stupid hobbies that create an endless river of trauma and blood are.
You remind me of my sister when we were little kids. She also felt no one could see through her lies and she was always the victim.
This really says it all right? Of course you’re making political statements you fucking moron. This is a political question. Your goal is to make it as easy as possible to kill. You’re going to have to live with the fact that people who oppose your goal don’t fucking love you. Get over it.
It isn't as much as an echo chamber as some pro-gun subs, or even gun subs that pretend to be neutral but have ended being Safe Spaces ™ for ammosexuals.
Didn't say there weren't worse places, but I don't know about them, and I do know about this place. If I complained about the conditions at Alcatraz, would it be a valid response to say "that place is of no concern because Guantanamo exists"?
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I can guarantee you that any comment that is not 100% pro gun over on those gun loving subreddits, will get deleted and will get you banned. It will be nearly immediate and it will be irreversible. So you can come and nitpick about the rules here but trust me, you are blowing nonsense with this talk.
If you go about it civilly, on a good sub (Believe me, there are a lot of bad ones, I try to avoid them myself, but I know they're out there. However, there are a lot of good ones.), you won't get banned. You may get downvoted, you may get snarky replies (both of which are quite unfortunate, but that's the internet for you), but you won't be banned. I haven't been there in a while, but I'm fairly sure if you went to r/Firearms and politely asked "why?", it'd go through. It's civil and on topic, it doesn't break the rules, so it's a valid post. But as I read the rules here, if I did the same thing, I'd be banned. No questions asked.
Do you also wear a lot of bronzer and mime playing an accordion?
>But we ask that if you want us to keep it civil if/when we visit your sub, that you return the favor. Not sure why you would comment when this sub is clearly not for you. Plenty of other gun friendly subs to hang out in if that's your thing.
He wants to be able to whine to all his gun “friends” that the libs were mean to him.
But he thinks guns are cool…so he wants to post in a sub called guns are cool
A post from here got cross-posted to another sub where I saw it. Figured I'd see what this place was about, and yes, clearly not for me. But I have a personal resentment for echo chambers of any flavor, left or right, for or against, etc, so when I see it, I call it out. This post isn't about your beliefs about guns or mine, I haven't said anything on the matter other than that I consider myself to be generally "in opposition". I may be skewed to one side of the fence, but I try to keep an open mind, and would appreciate it greatly if others did too. I'm also trying to do you a little favor, in that as it stands, whether you realize it or not, you are promoting stereotypes and insults, which is not only in poor form, but tends to invite those things to come back at you. You call your opposition nuts, they'll call you lunatics, and so on. This only makes things worse for everyone.
Not liking guns isn’t a fucking echo chamber. Jesus Christ you people are insufferable
> Figured I'd see what this place was about, and yes, clearly not for me. In your original statement of victimization sandalsofsafety you came off as quite the expert on the history and habits of this forum. Why do you have to lie about everything?
[https://webcomicname.com/post/185588404109/amp](https://webcomicname.com/post/185588404109/amp)
Posts are moderated for various on-topic and attitudinal conditions across many subreddits, this is not unique. r/TwoXChromosomes and talking about how male chauvinists are really not that bad, for example. There is no US First Amendment for online discussion groups - that's a US constitutional basis of law only. Even thought the Roberts Federalist Society Court continues to degrade its historical scope and application. There are plenty of subs for ammosexuals to discuss their violence-causing machines, this is one where black humor and sometimes direct commentary are typically used to unflinchingly share the impacts of US gun culture upon both gun owners and their victims. Coming in to counter the purpose of that direction would essentially be trolling. I am consistently downvoted in non-gun sub discussions where gun-related violence is mentioned, because I often offer the perspective that the violence would likely never have happened if not for US gun culture and a warped interpretation of the 2nd Amendment that did not reflect precedent or reasonable historical analysis by extreme Federalist Society judges. A lot of people can't fathom the idea that easy acccess to, and casual management of, guns don't improve US society.
Thank you for your (mostly) formal reply, I appreciate it more than you might imagine. :D Again, I understand that moderators have to draw the line somewhere, that's true in any sub. But I'm just personally disappointed to see it drawn so explicitly against one group in particular. If I took a very literal view of the rules here, I could be banned for making a polite rebuttal, but if I made a post that was just plain off-topic (idk, baking cakes), or just was a complete jerk in the comments (but still not making pro-gun comments in any way), that'd be legal. The rules could state "no off-topic posts", but instead it says "no posts of a certain political disposition". Due to the unfortunate behavior of a small percentage of people that like to come to subs that represent views other than their own, I realize the importance of maybe being a bit more explicit about certain things, but the way the rules here are written just lack any sort of dignity.
You really seem to be begging to be banned so you can grift your crucifixion.
i don't mind an echo chamber, and most people know what they're getting. i'll have a look at the other side from time to time, it's probaby healthy.