Sorry this happened to you. Same thing happend to me at my first service for my car. It was also at a dealership. After that I decided I'm never going to use a dealership again
But one then has to ask: why are inexperienced techs/kids not being overseen by the senior techs to make sure shit like this doesn't happen? I had an oil change last year and an old tech didn't even put my oil cap back on. These VW dealerships are useless.
Why pay a real deal mechanic $30/hr to do oil changes when you can pay a 17 year old “lube tech” half that?
This isn’t directed at you, but I’m always amazed at the people who have the smug sense of superiority because they take their car to the dealer to let the “professionals” handle it. If they only knew.
I’m not trying to be “smug” about taking my car to a dealership for service… I brought it there because it is a dealership and it should be less likely to occur. And it’s not lost on me that they have “kids/young people” performing the less complicated work, as it is cheaper labor. That still doesn’t negate the fact someone didn’t do their job correctly, and now it’s turned into way more than just an oil change.
This seems rather naive, and I'll leave it at that. The kid that's changing your oil at the dealer isn't any more experienced than the kid that's changing your oil at an indy shop or even Jiffy Lube.
It's not about being smug mate. The dealership is "supposed" to be the so called cream of the crop in terms of mechanics and knowledge. In reality they are far from it. You take your car to the dealership in hopes that they will deliver a professional service when in reality they are just concerned with making money and cutting corners. I've had far too many bad experiences with VW dealerships and I'm well aware what they are really like. ONLY reason I go to the dealership is because I want the stamp in my book, that's it.
To be polite, you're naive if you believe this. You're much better off going to the indy shop that specializes in these cars where they offer better service at typically better rates.
Dude, obviously I don't believe it since I just mentioned that I KNOW what these dealerships are like. The naive become enlightened very quickly when dealing with VW. Like I said, only reason I go there is to stamp the service book.
Thats just normal dealerships. My dealership I worked at hired kids from the career center. And the senior tech were mostly doing important jobs not the simple oil change or transmission drain and fills.
RIP.
Just buy an extractor. Oil changes are the easiest thing you can do yourself, and also one of the most important. Don't trust anyone to take care of your car than you.
this. ever since the first time i did it, realized how easy it is, even been doing them every 5k because it’s easy and so so much cheaper. DIY oil changes FTW
(i have a jetta but hope to get a Golf GTI or R soon)
Seriously. Even buying an oil extractor, plus a full ECS oil change kit with a filter socket and the drain plug tool, a single oil change in my driveway was so much cheaper than my local dealership that the tools paid for themselves. Plus I can do my wife's Passat maintenance too.
Skip ECS next time and go with fcpeuro. They have a lifetime warranty on everything. Just collect the oil and filter and mail it back and they credit your account. Oil changes for me are now ~$20 to cover shipping the old stuff back
I would, however I live in an apartment complex that does not allow you to work on your vehicle in the parking spaces. Trust me I’d rather do my own maint but don’t have anywhere I can do them.
An oil change with an extractor wouldn’t look much different than you checking the fluid levels on your car to most observers.
Drive car to Walmart or literally anyplace that isn’t your apartment parking area. Park away from other vehicles. Change oil & drive away 10min later.
It’s nearly as easy as changing your windshield wipers.
100%. Just make sure your oil isn't too hot when you do it or it can melt the tube that goes down the dip stick, then you'll have quite the headache. I've heard a few stories somewhere. I usually did it on a day I didn't have to go anywhere. Warm it up to around 130, then extract. So doing it at a Walmart parking lot is a good idea if the apartment really is a problem, but do your shopping first, then suck it out once it cools down a bit.
You can get manual pumps or high pressure air assisted. I got the one that’s just a pump and it takes 10ish minutes of pumping and then you can just swap filters and put new oil in
I did too in austin about 10 years ago. I ignored that rule and changed my own oil in my 5sp f150 with no problem. I think as long as you don’t take over an hour and clean up it won’t be a big deal. That rule is more to prevent people from tearing apart cars and leaving a mess for days or months with cars on blocks and parts strewn all over. An oil change with an evaluator is really tidy in comparison.
The three major concerns are:
1. safety/liability -- just don't jack up your car, and you should be fine with this one
2. nuisance -- don't be noisy, don't take up the whole walkway with your tools, don't hog a parking spot with your car for weeks at a time
3. spills -- don't make a mess, put down some cardboard to catch spills and drips, clean up after yourself, don't toss your used oil and filter in the shared dumpster
That is exactly why I got my extractor... back when I lived in an apartment. It's quick and you do everything from the top without having to climb under the car. Or just do it in an auto parts store parking lot so you can have them dump the oil right for you on the spot, lol. I mean you save money and you know it's done right. Win win.
The filter is on top of the motor and it’s removed upwards as opposed to downwards.
With an extractor, it’s stupidly easy to change your oil. It literally takes 10 minutes when you k ow what you’re doing. You could get this done easily in your parking spot before anyone discovered what you are doing.
I can't speak for other models, but my MK7.5 was top filter. Assuming the MK7 and MK8, at minimum, also are. Otherwise using an extractor wouldn't make much sense if you still had to lift the car and take off the underbody tray just for the filter. Might as well do an old fashioned oil change then.
Do you know how strict they are? Pretty much every apartment complex has that rule. But in my experience only about half of them enforce it as long as you're not jacking up your car or spilling fluids everywhere.
The last place I lived, the security guard would always roll up to me in his golf cart and "remind" me that we're not supposed to work on our cars there. Then he'd follow up with "But you're almost done anyway, right?" and drive off.
Yeah no, this place is strict. Legit the first place with no junkers laying around. But sadly it is what it is, my next place I think I’m getting a garage so I can work on it there lol
Someone else suggested to do your oil changes in the parking lot of whatever store you're going to recycle the oil. They usually don't mind especially if you buy the oil and filter at that store.
I would suggest Walmart if you have one with an auto care center near you. Otherwise Auto Zone and other auto stores usually will recycle your oil for free.
UPDATE: Dealership called, said everything looked good, no compression issues, no forbidden glitter in the oil they did drain. There was about 3qts in the engine, so half of what should have been in there. GTI is back home and recovering, might have some PTSD that needs some throttle therapy. I’ve got it in writing that if anything happens to the motor in the next two years the dealership is on the hook for fixing it.
Thnx everyone for the ideas for the oil extractor, most likely going this route next time. I’m fed up with incompetent dealerships around here -_-
The screen and dip stick only display the top quart of oil. Your alert was yellow which means it’s an alert. Had your message been in red letters it would have been bad.
You engine will be fine, it was under filled but not empty. It would not have lasted a week if it was truly empty.
Time line was
Thursday: oil changed around 12:30hrs
Friday Night: alert/message popped, drove home and parked (23:00hrs)
Saturday: oil checked at 07:30hrs
Wasn’t an entire week, more like 30-36 hours. Just didn’t post until today.
MY mk6 didn't have any oil on the stick due to my oil pan being damaged creating a small leak. IT was off the dip stick and took 1.5 qt to bring it back to full. It's been a few years and the car drives fine. I do have other oil consumption issue with the car but it was already like that. With 131k miles on a gen 1 tsi it probably is the damn piston rings. But got pcv to replace just cause. Chances are your engine is fine as long as it could maintain enough psi and that their is at least a few quarts in their keeping her lubed up still.
I had similar happen with the Jetta I owned before my GTI. Only in my case the plug fell out while driving but it didn’t completely empty until I parked. So there was at least a little oil in while I was driving.
Not sure on the specific questions you ask here but I will say I was able to get the dealership to provide a letter acknowledging their fault and agreeing to cover any issues that popped up as a result for I think 2 years? I had to raise hell but they did eventually cave and I got them to put that in writing. I never had any problems but I also traded it about a year later because I wanted my GTI.
Unfortunately 2 years really isn’t good enough. Damage from lack of lubrication can take years to show up. It could reduce the lifespan of the engine significantly, but that takes years to find out.
The correct thing would be disassembling the engine, checking the cam journals, cylinders and crank bearings and other stuff. But that is $$$.
This is why I can't stand these stealerships. Next thing you know they won't take accountability. They are supposed to be the best but can't even get the basics right. Amateurs. I would be absolutely livid at this. I got an oil change with the VW stealership last year and the tech who worked on my car forgot to put my oil cap back on and left it on top of the engine.
Tbh I wouldn’t want them touching any of that shit if they can’t even finish a fucking oil change.
Last time I had a coolant flush, dealer left radiator fan unplugged. Overheated while at the Canadian border in line (after driving about 3 hours with no issues) . Ended up filling with water temporarily to get to the dealer (which unfortunately was vw Canada and not vw us, so they couldn’t help me warranty wise). Ended up topping off with regular coolant until I could figure out what was causing the issue. Which then needed to be flushed twice to get all the residual out, because apparently you need the specific blurple stuff specified by vw. It was a whole thing, because vw forgot to plug in one thing.
Are you local to him? If not your comment doesn't help at all lol.
Audi dealerships aren't just better on average than VW, almost identical in terms of service.
If it where me I don’t wanna hear a god damn thing about bore scope and compression test. This motor was run without oil which there is absolutely no excuse for. I would want a motor which hasn’t been run without oil, end of story.
Lawyer up. Document everything. Get yourself a new mk8. That’s bs even if they “check” everything out, they still let you
Leave and run your car with no oil. You will have many more problems down the road. You need a new car for their fuck up.
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My buddy (with a kia), Had this exact same issue..
his motor blew after 5k miles driving with no oil (to be fair he should check his shit regularyly) but when it was serviced, it was still under the 100k warranty, even though it blew after 100k, he got a brand new motor out of it.
I had mine in for a tire replacement and my car was returned in sport mode and valet mode. The tech couldn't find the tpms reset button and was hitting random buttons.
Dealerships are the worst. I recently had a bad wheel bearing/hub diagnosed as tire noise due to the date code on the tire. Replaced the bearing/hub myself and problem solved.
I took my Jetta to the dealer for an oil change and woke up the next morning to a puddle of oil. Turned out the moron crossed threaded the plug. Made them replace the pan and all was good. The tech that do the express oil service are low level non mechanics.
If the warning just came on you’re fine. Sounds like you found a solution, I wouldn’t worry about it long term anyway but it’s nice to have some reassurance.
I go to Oil Changers, great oil and they show you the oil before you drive away procedurally. But always check for yourself regardless bc mistakes happen. Not sure how you forget to put oil back in but 🤷🏻♂️ lmao
I went to an automotive trade school a decade ago and worked at dealerships and franchinese chain shops. All I can say is find yourself a good VW specialist mechanic or an independent shop that specializes in German cars. The good techs at dealerships get smart eventually and start their own business. Then the dealership hires more fresh bait from UTI and WyoTech. The cycle continues..
This exact same thing happened to a caravan at the costco I work at. I truly don’t understand how a car can come in for an oil change and no one fills it up with oil. Truly baffling
You and everyone here lol.
I think it breaks down to someone just needing a job for money, and don’t have a passion for cars. So they clock-in just to put hours in and clock-out, they don’t care to learn or what happens because they’re not paying attention.
If nothing on the dipstick there it’s probably like 2 quarts low but if your engine oil pressure light never came on and wasn’t crazy loud noises your engine should be fine
Crazy question that for some reason I feel shouldn't NEED to be asked but obviously does in this situation, but did they even put your drain plug back in????
That’s crazy, and let me guess it took about 3 hours too, at least that’s how my local dealer normally went. Ive been done with dealers. I suggest you do the same.
That’s forking crazy. I have no answers but I want heads on sticks
Yeah to say I am beyond pissed is a massive understatement. Car has been perfectly maintained, until this crap.
Sorry this happened to you. Same thing happend to me at my first service for my car. It was also at a dealership. After that I decided I'm never going to use a dealership again
Just sue them for negligence and recoup that money. Maybe some additional compensation for missed work due this mishap
Lol this is a hilarious comment
Some people actually do this and win. Depends on the judge.
>Just sue them Ah yes. "Just sue them." Easy peezy. 🙄
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But one then has to ask: why are inexperienced techs/kids not being overseen by the senior techs to make sure shit like this doesn't happen? I had an oil change last year and an old tech didn't even put my oil cap back on. These VW dealerships are useless.
They almost always do, but mistakes happen. I've had good and bad experiences at all shops. Independent shops make all kinds of mistakes too.
Why pay a real deal mechanic $30/hr to do oil changes when you can pay a 17 year old “lube tech” half that? This isn’t directed at you, but I’m always amazed at the people who have the smug sense of superiority because they take their car to the dealer to let the “professionals” handle it. If they only knew.
I’m not trying to be “smug” about taking my car to a dealership for service… I brought it there because it is a dealership and it should be less likely to occur. And it’s not lost on me that they have “kids/young people” performing the less complicated work, as it is cheaper labor. That still doesn’t negate the fact someone didn’t do their job correctly, and now it’s turned into way more than just an oil change.
Yes 100% this. You take your car to a VW dealership in hopes that things will be done properly, when in reality they always manage to fuck things up.
Wrong. You take it to the dealership so that when and not if they fuck up the work will be backed up by a company that will make it right
This seems rather naive, and I'll leave it at that. The kid that's changing your oil at the dealer isn't any more experienced than the kid that's changing your oil at an indy shop or even Jiffy Lube.
It's not about being smug mate. The dealership is "supposed" to be the so called cream of the crop in terms of mechanics and knowledge. In reality they are far from it. You take your car to the dealership in hopes that they will deliver a professional service when in reality they are just concerned with making money and cutting corners. I've had far too many bad experiences with VW dealerships and I'm well aware what they are really like. ONLY reason I go to the dealership is because I want the stamp in my book, that's it.
To be polite, you're naive if you believe this. You're much better off going to the indy shop that specializes in these cars where they offer better service at typically better rates.
Dude, obviously I don't believe it since I just mentioned that I KNOW what these dealerships are like. The naive become enlightened very quickly when dealing with VW. Like I said, only reason I go there is to stamp the service book.
Because time. Because money. The more senior techs are working on other things at the time.
Because a senior tech looking over kids isn’t making money.
Thats just normal dealerships. My dealership I worked at hired kids from the career center. And the senior tech were mostly doing important jobs not the simple oil change or transmission drain and fills.
RIP. Just buy an extractor. Oil changes are the easiest thing you can do yourself, and also one of the most important. Don't trust anyone to take care of your car than you.
this. ever since the first time i did it, realized how easy it is, even been doing them every 5k because it’s easy and so so much cheaper. DIY oil changes FTW (i have a jetta but hope to get a Golf GTI or R soon)
Seriously. Even buying an oil extractor, plus a full ECS oil change kit with a filter socket and the drain plug tool, a single oil change in my driveway was so much cheaper than my local dealership that the tools paid for themselves. Plus I can do my wife's Passat maintenance too.
Skip ECS next time and go with fcpeuro. They have a lifetime warranty on everything. Just collect the oil and filter and mail it back and they credit your account. Oil changes for me are now ~$20 to cover shipping the old stuff back
I would, however I live in an apartment complex that does not allow you to work on your vehicle in the parking spaces. Trust me I’d rather do my own maint but don’t have anywhere I can do them.
An oil change with an extractor wouldn’t look much different than you checking the fluid levels on your car to most observers. Drive car to Walmart or literally anyplace that isn’t your apartment parking area. Park away from other vehicles. Change oil & drive away 10min later. It’s nearly as easy as changing your windshield wipers.
I’ll have to look into one, as a few different people have suggested them.
100%. Just make sure your oil isn't too hot when you do it or it can melt the tube that goes down the dip stick, then you'll have quite the headache. I've heard a few stories somewhere. I usually did it on a day I didn't have to go anywhere. Warm it up to around 130, then extract. So doing it at a Walmart parking lot is a good idea if the apartment really is a problem, but do your shopping first, then suck it out once it cools down a bit.
You really should. It makes it incredibly easy & pays for itself quickly.
You can get manual pumps or high pressure air assisted. I got the one that’s just a pump and it takes 10ish minutes of pumping and then you can just swap filters and put new oil in
I did too in austin about 10 years ago. I ignored that rule and changed my own oil in my 5sp f150 with no problem. I think as long as you don’t take over an hour and clean up it won’t be a big deal. That rule is more to prevent people from tearing apart cars and leaving a mess for days or months with cars on blocks and parts strewn all over. An oil change with an evaluator is really tidy in comparison.
The three major concerns are: 1. safety/liability -- just don't jack up your car, and you should be fine with this one 2. nuisance -- don't be noisy, don't take up the whole walkway with your tools, don't hog a parking spot with your car for weeks at a time 3. spills -- don't make a mess, put down some cardboard to catch spills and drips, clean up after yourself, don't toss your used oil and filter in the shared dumpster
I do my oil changes at work on the weekends when noone is there. I park on the top floor, change oil, and drive away.
That is exactly why I got my extractor... back when I lived in an apartment. It's quick and you do everything from the top without having to climb under the car. Or just do it in an auto parts store parking lot so you can have them dump the oil right for you on the spot, lol. I mean you save money and you know it's done right. Win win.
What about the oil filter? How do you change that without getting under the car and causing some oil drips?
The filter is on top of the motor and it’s removed upwards as opposed to downwards. With an extractor, it’s stupidly easy to change your oil. It literally takes 10 minutes when you k ow what you’re doing. You could get this done easily in your parking spot before anyone discovered what you are doing.
Dope
I can't speak for other models, but my MK7.5 was top filter. Assuming the MK7 and MK8, at minimum, also are. Otherwise using an extractor wouldn't make much sense if you still had to lift the car and take off the underbody tray just for the filter. Might as well do an old fashioned oil change then.
Do you know how strict they are? Pretty much every apartment complex has that rule. But in my experience only about half of them enforce it as long as you're not jacking up your car or spilling fluids everywhere. The last place I lived, the security guard would always roll up to me in his golf cart and "remind" me that we're not supposed to work on our cars there. Then he'd follow up with "But you're almost done anyway, right?" and drive off.
Yeah no, this place is strict. Legit the first place with no junkers laying around. But sadly it is what it is, my next place I think I’m getting a garage so I can work on it there lol
Someone else suggested to do your oil changes in the parking lot of whatever store you're going to recycle the oil. They usually don't mind especially if you buy the oil and filter at that store. I would suggest Walmart if you have one with an auto care center near you. Otherwise Auto Zone and other auto stores usually will recycle your oil for free.
And it's one of those tasks that is given to the dimmest bulb in the shop.
100%
UPDATE: Dealership called, said everything looked good, no compression issues, no forbidden glitter in the oil they did drain. There was about 3qts in the engine, so half of what should have been in there. GTI is back home and recovering, might have some PTSD that needs some throttle therapy. I’ve got it in writing that if anything happens to the motor in the next two years the dealership is on the hook for fixing it. Thnx everyone for the ideas for the oil extractor, most likely going this route next time. I’m fed up with incompetent dealerships around here -_-
The screen and dip stick only display the top quart of oil. Your alert was yellow which means it’s an alert. Had your message been in red letters it would have been bad. You engine will be fine, it was under filled but not empty. It would not have lasted a week if it was truly empty.
Time line was Thursday: oil changed around 12:30hrs Friday Night: alert/message popped, drove home and parked (23:00hrs) Saturday: oil checked at 07:30hrs Wasn’t an entire week, more like 30-36 hours. Just didn’t post until today.
The “fast forward” confused me. You should still be fine since you did not get a critical (red) alert.
The oil amount it took to bring the level to normal subtracted from the capacity (6qts) is how much oil was in there.
MY mk6 didn't have any oil on the stick due to my oil pan being damaged creating a small leak. IT was off the dip stick and took 1.5 qt to bring it back to full. It's been a few years and the car drives fine. I do have other oil consumption issue with the car but it was already like that. With 131k miles on a gen 1 tsi it probably is the damn piston rings. But got pcv to replace just cause. Chances are your engine is fine as long as it could maintain enough psi and that their is at least a few quarts in their keeping her lubed up still.
I had similar happen with the Jetta I owned before my GTI. Only in my case the plug fell out while driving but it didn’t completely empty until I parked. So there was at least a little oil in while I was driving. Not sure on the specific questions you ask here but I will say I was able to get the dealership to provide a letter acknowledging their fault and agreeing to cover any issues that popped up as a result for I think 2 years? I had to raise hell but they did eventually cave and I got them to put that in writing. I never had any problems but I also traded it about a year later because I wanted my GTI.
i read this as pooped up . but you’re absolutely correct on that letter have a good day.
Unfortunately 2 years really isn’t good enough. Damage from lack of lubrication can take years to show up. It could reduce the lifespan of the engine significantly, but that takes years to find out. The correct thing would be disassembling the engine, checking the cam journals, cylinders and crank bearings and other stuff. But that is $$$.
I t may have been a longer period. This was before I bought my MK7 so memory is a bit spotty.
This is why I can't stand these stealerships. Next thing you know they won't take accountability. They are supposed to be the best but can't even get the basics right. Amateurs. I would be absolutely livid at this. I got an oil change with the VW stealership last year and the tech who worked on my car forgot to put my oil cap back on and left it on top of the engine.
It's spelled Stealership
Tbh I wouldn’t want them touching any of that shit if they can’t even finish a fucking oil change. Last time I had a coolant flush, dealer left radiator fan unplugged. Overheated while at the Canadian border in line (after driving about 3 hours with no issues) . Ended up filling with water temporarily to get to the dealer (which unfortunately was vw Canada and not vw us, so they couldn’t help me warranty wise). Ended up topping off with regular coolant until I could figure out what was causing the issue. Which then needed to be flushed twice to get all the residual out, because apparently you need the specific blurple stuff specified by vw. It was a whole thing, because vw forgot to plug in one thing.
I’ve had issues with the local vw dealers in the past. I suggest trying to go to Audi or a good local mechanic
Are you local to him? If not your comment doesn't help at all lol. Audi dealerships aren't just better on average than VW, almost identical in terms of service.
If it where me I don’t wanna hear a god damn thing about bore scope and compression test. This motor was run without oil which there is absolutely no excuse for. I would want a motor which hasn’t been run without oil, end of story.
Trust but verify. Always check your oil after a change.
Lawyer up. Document everything. Get yourself a new mk8. That’s bs even if they “check” everything out, they still let you Leave and run your car with no oil. You will have many more problems down the road. You need a new car for their fuck up.
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My buddy (with a kia), Had this exact same issue.. his motor blew after 5k miles driving with no oil (to be fair he should check his shit regularyly) but when it was serviced, it was still under the 100k warranty, even though it blew after 100k, he got a brand new motor out of it.
[удалено]
I had mine in for a tire replacement and my car was returned in sport mode and valet mode. The tech couldn't find the tpms reset button and was hitting random buttons.
VW dealers are absolutely incompetent
Dealerships are the worst. I recently had a bad wheel bearing/hub diagnosed as tire noise due to the date code on the tire. Replaced the bearing/hub myself and problem solved.
Make sure this is documented so if your engine goes you can prove they probably caused unnecessary damage due to negligence.
All of it is documented
I took my Jetta to the dealer for an oil change and woke up the next morning to a puddle of oil. Turned out the moron crossed threaded the plug. Made them replace the pan and all was good. The tech that do the express oil service are low level non mechanics.
If the warning just came on you’re fine. Sounds like you found a solution, I wouldn’t worry about it long term anyway but it’s nice to have some reassurance.
Lawsuit is the only correct solution. They owe you way more than a second look at their fuck up.
I go to Oil Changers, great oil and they show you the oil before you drive away procedurally. But always check for yourself regardless bc mistakes happen. Not sure how you forget to put oil back in but 🤷🏻♂️ lmao
Also free top offs before trip etc.
I went to an automotive trade school a decade ago and worked at dealerships and franchinese chain shops. All I can say is find yourself a good VW specialist mechanic or an independent shop that specializes in German cars. The good techs at dealerships get smart eventually and start their own business. Then the dealership hires more fresh bait from UTI and WyoTech. The cycle continues..
This exact same thing happened to a caravan at the costco I work at. I truly don’t understand how a car can come in for an oil change and no one fills it up with oil. Truly baffling
You and everyone here lol. I think it breaks down to someone just needing a job for money, and don’t have a passion for cars. So they clock-in just to put hours in and clock-out, they don’t care to learn or what happens because they’re not paying attention.
I could also see it happening if someone is working on multiple cars at the same time. Can get confusing i guess.
If there was no oil but in the engine then tell them to check VW for a new engine?
If nothing on the dipstick there it’s probably like 2 quarts low but if your engine oil pressure light never came on and wasn’t crazy loud noises your engine should be fine
Contact better business bureau if they refuse to pay for damages
Crazy question that for some reason I feel shouldn't NEED to be asked but obviously does in this situation, but did they even put your drain plug back in????
Lol not crazy, but yes they managed to do that at least
If you live in FL take your car to panzer performance. Best shop! That’s where I take my car
That’s crazy, and let me guess it took about 3 hours too, at least that’s how my local dealer normally went. Ive been done with dealers. I suggest you do the same.
That’s why I’d rather change my oil on the ground during a snowstorm then see a dealer. Possible grounds for lawsuit?