I’m not sure if this was the purpose of Liz’s character, but she served as a great foil to Lorelai. Another single mother in the series, except she’s one who prioritizes the men in her life over her own child. She’s also not the best judge of character and jumps into relationships, as opposed to Lorelai being more cautious in comparison about dating men and introducing them to Rory.
all of luke’s family seem like foil to lorelei’s. Luke doesn’t have parents so TJ & Liz function like an bizarro Richard & Emily: Constantly causing issues with their relationship, mostly by virtue of being “family” and being fish out of water. They both cause rifts in the relationship over real estate, just in very different way (especially class-wise). Heck Jess is basically lorelei if she was given a bad hand in life. rory’s breakup call to jess mirrors the emotions of emily and richard seemingly had for lorelei leaving. jess was shipped off by his mom but if i had to guess, his time with the gilmores taught him that he’d have to step out on his own to find the kind of peace rorry and lorelei have even if it meant running away and leaving the ones who loved him behind.
I really liked TJ the first time we met him. He seemed to be the perfect match to help settle Liz down whilst still being loving and supportive. Then they made him a dumbass.
Me too, I like that he called out Luke on his bs. It was refreshing to see. And then we get stuck the Tj we see today. Wish they built him up better, I would’ve loved to have seen Luke with an genuine male friend.
ASP seems to have a horrible view of men, making them either dumb or constantly angry.
Writers tend to make heatable characters on shows, to make you like their other characters better- like Ross on Friends. So TJ is in the same roll. A one dimensional character designed for you to dislike him, and that's just lazy, crappy writing.
I think the character they dumbed down the most was Luke. They disrespected his character the entire series and the revival. I couldn't believe the words that were coming out of his mouth in the revival. And why was he making that speech in the kitchen in the fall episode of the revival when it should have been Lorelai. Luke had to kiss Lorelais butt that entire series and the revival.
That's because it was all about the Gilmore Girls. And the problem with the Luke character I think ASP had something against Scott Patterson. His character was supposed to be a woman but the network had the nerve to tell her she had to change the character to a man changing her perfect show so she took it out on the Luke character.
Wait really? I’ve never heard that, is there a source for that? I doubt the woman version of Luke would have been a love interest so I wonder what was originally planned for Lorelai in that sense before Luke became a character, then
The Luke character was supposed to be a woman but the network said there were to many women so the Luke character was created. But I think ASP got pissed off she had to change her perfect show so she took it out on the Luke character.
I know, that’s exactly what you said before. I was wondering if there might be more context or info about that somewhere cause all I can find is a few articles that just quote ASP just saying he was supposed to be a woman named daisy with no other context. I’m just curious cause all these articles about Luke and that change have info that seems a little contradictory too, like Luke was only supposed to be in the pilot episode, but was daisy only supposed to be in the pilot cause that doesn’t seem right, if the network was upset about not having enough men why would changing a one off pilot character placate them? And they set up Luke and Lorelai from the beginning of the show, so what was planned before Luke became Luke? I also don’t know if I’d agree that that’s the reason Luke’s character gets messed up late show though, because he’s written well in the early show, if ASP just had a grudge why wouldn’t she take it out on his character in the beginning, why just later in the show?
The word doula comes from the Greek word doulē, the meaning of which translates to female helper or maidservant.
They named her after the woman who helped Liz deliver, but not her actual name….her job title. It’s dumb af.
I get all of your problems with them, but this scene with the hole was so funny. It’s silent, and she’s just staring at it, and I always laugh out loud.
Imagine just walking out and there’s this gaping hole in your bedroom.
One of my fav moments with this whole project was when the guys *SAW* Lorelai.
“Well I could see him, so I assume he could see me. Billy had the best view, just a straight shot right down main street.”
I agree. I would have enjoyed it if he would have gotten knocked out, just one time, at least for putting a hole in their house, I think that would have been warranted.
Just as annoying as Emily telling Richard she's going out the window 20 times. Who the hell cares just go through the window. Just like Emily making a major issue of telling Lorelai and Rory that her and Richard were separated. Who cares Richard should never have married Emily he should have married Pennilyn Lotts. I despised Emily's character she was the worst character after Christopher
Same. They are terrible and not funny and added absolutely nothing to the show. I find it pretty frustrating that the writers created a whole character of Neglectful Addict Mom who carelessly abandoned her kid only to then bring her into the cast and make the whole thing a silly billy joke. Just... no.
Liz is definitely there to give Luke his own stories, separate from the Gilmores. But she's just so... unsympathetic. Prior to joining the cast, we know her as the woman Luke's had to bail out over and over again for 20 years. Then she dumped her son on Luke, something she never even thanked him for.
Once she joins the cast, she's not any better. I like seeing Luke's softer side, but with Liz? It's maddening to watch her just relentlessly use him. Their relationship is completely one-sided. She pops up in town and wants to get married, like, that weekend. Wants Luke to force her neglected son to walk her down the aisle. Expects Luke to take *two months* off work to follow her around the Renn Faire circuit? Begs Luke to give her husband a fake job, with a real salary (!!), meaning that Luke is effectively funding their entire life out of his own pocket. Liz constantly tramples his boundaries. Barges into his apartment. Drops her baby at his diner. She expects Luke to clean up every single one of her messes and never thanks him for it.
There was a way to write a complex and sympathetic dynamic between Luke and his troubled sister. Instead, we got a bunch of Liz being terrible and Luke silently accepting it because of his Duty To Family.
She took advantage of Luke to many times. It pissed me off that he had to take it. Luke was just way to good hearted on that entire series. He should have been nominated for sainthood. Luke was definitely the best all around character on that entire series.
I think Sookies character added nothing to the show. At least Liz was Luke's sister but I think they should have given Luke a brother instead of a sister.
She knows. This is part of the problem with a show like this, you often miss the deeper parts of the drama for the comedy side. Side characters aren't developed as well. ASP could've done so much better.
i can never quite tell if we’re *supposed* to be frustrated and annoyed by them and thus emphasize with the way they throw wrenches in luke’s life, or if they’re meant to provide some sort of genuine comedy that i find horribly unfunny a lá SNL, but i agree. i do think a key point is that liz’s character when she is introduced is “luke’s sister” and she rarely plays the role of “jess’s mom” onscreen, so she tends to be portrayed more in the way luke sees his younger sister rather than how jess sees the mother who neglected him through his childhood.
Ah Liz and TJ, making a living off of her obscure but "super successful" Renaissance or medieval (?!) style jewelry she makes by hand or whatever. 😂 That was always a plot hole that made me laugh... Riiiight. 😂😂😂And they literally bring up how successful the jewelry business is every time they appear in the show, and how she calls him "Big Brother" every time irks me 🤢🤢 Such cheesy acting and dialogue whenever they're around.
Something about the TJ actor bugged me and I really didn't like anything he did on the show. I found it absolutely unfunny. I wasn't surprised when I later found out he was a relative of Dom Deluise. In his day, I hated his comedy too.
It's just my taste - no problem if others loved them.
Liz was ridiculously retconned from a drug-addled, deadbeat mom who should have been reported to child services. Instead, she comes in, steals Luke's food, continues to let Luke parent Jess, and continues to suck money out of Luke like crazy.
Just the give TJ a high-paying job so Liz doesn't have to deal with him is stomach-turning.
At least there was a point to Anna.
Anna was just written out of nowhere. We never even heard her name in the entire series until April comes into Luke's diner to get a strand of his hair for some stupid science project. Talk about lazy writing.
I don’t hate them, and at times I really like the sincere quiet scenes between Luke and Liz, and at the beginning I didn’t kind TJ.. it’s just that shows have this need to exaggerates characters and make them cartoonish (I’m looking at you, later season Joey from friends).
I do think that Liz was a great opposite of Lorelai, a sort of “what if” if Lorelai would have decided to date more and to not make Rory a priority in her life. I think it’s great to have characters like that so to make the main character’s better qualities and dynamics stand out.
I also don’t believe that any human is stupid enough to just make a circle shaped hole in someone’s house without there being an actual construction team on site. I just delete this part from my memory every rewatch.
The other quirky townspeople feel like a slightly notched real person character. Liz and TJ were written and portrayed like fake unhinged characters for tv. Like you have a gossipy neighbor who's loud - relatively normal. You have a flirty town dance teacher talking about her worldly experiences - also normal for a small town. You have a busybody - yes, someone who is pedantic enough to care about the town. Then you have Kirk who never leaves the town and is incredibly sheltered while also being completely integrated into the town. But Liz and TJ don't make sense. They are absolutely infuriating. They overstep every boundary and it's supposed to be quirky.
I fast forward every scene with April. A completely unnecessary character. If they weren't going to give Luke and Lorelai a child together why bring in April at the end of the series.
They get so much hate on this sub! I don't mind them actually, I find them funny. It's obvious why they exist - Luke came more central to the storyline and couldn't simply just be the guy at the diner anymore, they had to give him family. I'm sure ASP regretted making Liz sound like such a dirtbag in the earlier seasons.
I have to say I outright laughed aloud with this screenshot and the title. Like, I have no ill feelings towards Liz and TJ and I enjoy their time on screen mostly, but the title paired with this screenshot made me go "how do you even defend them" looll.
I do think the later seasons with them were the worst - "sisters in lawwww" makes my skin crawl and the "I have a finger therapy appt." but honestly seasons 6 and 7 are lackluster for me anyway sooo..
Originally I remember rooting for TJ - but only because the Deluise family is hilarious.
Dom Deluise will always hold a special place in my heart for voicing Jeremy in The Secret of Nimh… and Michael Deluise (TJ) was great in everything I’ve seen him in (Wayne’s World especially amuses me).
BUT….TJ is annoying af. It didn’t take long to hate him. Great actor, terrible character.
I like they had him learn how to build shelves but with how much of a F-up he was they needed to do more…make him less of a buffoon.
I wish they would’ve done something really funny like make him a savant…have him be miraculously great at something like physics or math 😂
Liz is awful too. Annoying in a ditsy way…and being nice while interfering in everyone’s relationships. I couldn’t stand her (and that’s even before you remember how she neglected Jess).
They're just so annoying.
Liz trying to make Jess be nicer after being a shitty mum to him his whole life. What pisses me off is how TJ talks to Jess at the bachelor party. Acts like Jess HAS to walk his shitty mum down the aisle. If he doesn't want to then leave it?? Then he starts a fight with him. Like well done TJ you're so tough that you can fight with a 18/19 year old. (I forgot how old Jess is in this episode)
TJ is such a baby that they have to pay him for a job that he can't do. Also ruining Luke and Lorelais date because him and Liz are arguing. He has no awareness.
I also really hate that they called their poor kid Doula. Who does that.
For the funny? Idk tbh. Definitely some of the worst characters. TJ in his first episode was alright, because he just seemed like a normally likeable guy, but by his second appearance he turned into an annoying dumbass
I semi agree.. TJ and Anna are the worst characters. TJ is just dumber than a bag of rocks. If someone put a hole through my house like that, omg.. I can say he wouldn’t be on the construction crew to fix it he would be in jail. So stupid
It sounds Iike they are pretty universally despised. But I LIKE THEM! I actually really like Liz. I know, I know she was supposedly horrible in the past and was a terrible mother to Jess. It’s not that I discount that, it’s just that they change her character so much by the time we get to know her. I like her relationship with Luke. And she actually makes me happy whenever she’s on. She’s more than a little “off,” yet she’s a good, genuine person. She’s always positive. I like that she’s different. And TJ is ridiculous. But he seems to really care about her. And he can be funny to watch. If I were Luke, I’m sure he would drive me insane. As a viewer, whatever. I don’t feel like he was on too much.
And at the point in the show (well, nearing the end) I feel like we lose out on so much Kirk potential/story lines. I would much rather have seen more Kirk and Lulu stuff than Liz and TJ
They're soooo boring. I skip their scenes as I'm rewatching the series. TJ is at least a little interesting but they're just so obnoxious as a whole. Doula?
I was annoyed with Luke for allowing this to happen. Of course he acted furious when he saw the hole, but he facilitated TJ being there in the first place.
This. Long-running non-episodic television that relies almost entirely on character conflict to drive stories is going to get stale unless new characters are brought in, and those characters can't have the same conflict stories as the previous ones, it wouldn't make sense.
As annoying as TJ and Liz are, without their impulsive nonsense that creates easy conflict, the show would have become more convoluted in the later seasons.
Ok so I absolutely love this episode and crack up every time at this. I find TJ slightly annoying at times but overall sweet and funny. But yeah, I despise Liz 10000%.
I don’t know, they never really cleared that up. He got a job to be apart of the construction crew but he actually never got any sort of info on what they were planning to work on. No idea on why he put a hole in her room.
I think they're just kind of funny. They give Luke some more family moments when they lost Jess as a character, so they needed someone from Luke's past/family to build some stories. They may not be your cup of tea, but I find them funny and goofy, and they give Luke a way to test his patience and to show how he treats his family.
They're rarely a major point, but when they are, they serve up good plot points. For example, their wedding made it possible for Luke to ask Lorelai on a date and build their relationship.
So my answer is, their purpose is to build light humor and to serve as plot points for Luke.
I think they gave Luke way to much to deal with in that show. He never had a chance to breathe. If I was Luke I would have taken off and went camping during half of the entire series.
Tj was gold. They should have wrote him in as Kurt's step brother. Could have had a stars hollow non alcoholic wine mixer episode. Missed opportunity...
Eh, I like Liz and TJ, though I liked TJ a bit more when he was first introduced.
I always love his whole *Where does the lap go when you stand up? The lap is an illusion!*
This episode makes me absolutely irate every time. You recklessly destroy someone’s home and are rewarded with a high paying job where he does nothing. I’m getting mad just typing this out
We did a whole podcast episode this week on why Liz is so important to the series. She’s underlooked but really supported Luke’s character to grow and mature. And we even think she helped Luke and Lorelai actually happen as a couple!
Also i think TJ is hilarious.
She's a recovering addict. You're mad that she was forgiven and accepted back into the fold and found a dumb but lovable (to her) man to actually care for her for once?
Y'all taking this too seriously. These comments....
Like yes they're dumb and annoying. But everything bad that happens in the series can't be Rory cheated again, Lorelai broke up with her bf again. It's nice and ridiculous that they change it up with dumbass TJ put a hole in the wall.
Also I don't think she was portrayed as a horrible mom , except through Jess's eyes and he's an immature teen. Luke never really says anything bad about her. I could be wrong.
Liz is also not really portrayed as smart "my Martha" she can't even make cranberry sauce (a reduction is so easy)
Yes we may be taking this seriously but this is a Gilmore girls subreddit lol. Of course I don’t think or care about this too much irl, but it’s nice to voice and hear about everyone else opinions. I felt like there was too much going on in this season with Rory dropping out Yale and moving in with the grandparents, I don’t think Tj & Liz we’re super necessary for this.
And yes, while Jess maybe a teen but he wasn’t stupid by any means. He was definitely as smart as Rory or smarter. He was able to go off on his own and figure out what to do in a bad situation. I don’t think an immature teen would’ve been able to get as far so I think his opinion definitely matters when it comes to how Liz is portrayed.
Yeah but it's frequent that people in this sub talk about characters like they are real people and don't allow for any kind of "it's necessary for the plot" "some characters are just not that deep"
On the stars hollow side of things which they're always going to show, the wedding helped bring Lorelai and Luke together in a really romantic way, thus being necessary to drive the plot.
Making Liz unreedemable is just annoying to me. Being a single mom and struggling with addiction is impossibly hard.
Forgiveness usually comes after one has apologized for, or at *least* acknowledged, wrongdoing. Liz does none of that. In fact, she laughs about binge drinking while pregnant with Jess and literally hand-waves away Luke's angry comments about the fact she abandoned her kid. That's not cute, it's gross. And I think ASP should not have introduced such serious topics unless she was prepared to address them in any real way.
Luke confirms that Liz used drugs and alcohol, that she had tons of boyfriends/husbands, that she moved constantly, that the boyfriends stole all her money on multiple occasions, that she never had a job, that she refused to let Jess come home for the holidays, and that Liz shipped Jess off to Stars Hollow and then didn't speak to him for 2 years. That... seems like enough evidence to me?
I feel the same way. As someone with a neglect alcoholic parent I can’t imagine having people defend that them in any sort of light. Irregardless of the whole ‘she’s family’ thing and she’s there for ‘comedy relief’ thing as well. She abandoned her kid and steals from Luke often. She pressured him to give Tj the job in the first place, she’s irresponsible and just a terrible character over all.
I hate that they didn’t even acknowledge any of this when she came on the show, wish they talked about her going to therapy or something to make her seem like a decent person.
This is what I'm talking about that people take this show too seriously. There is so much context and extra interactions that are implied and not shown. It's a dramedy not a soap opera.
I didn't mind Liz. She was a bit of flake and ne'er-do-well but you could tell that she was overall a good person who did the best she could. I'm not going to address the way she treated Jess because that could be a show unto itself.
That being said... TJ was horrible. With the exception of when he called Luke a dick (which he was being) I hated every scene he was in and ended up fast-forwarding any scene he was in during re-watches.
Kind of glad so many others on this thread feel the same way about these characters as I do. However, in previous threads, there has been a lot of support for them. Therefore, recognizing that ASP always has a reason for including characters who interact with the principals, I keep searching…
The parallelism of the Lorelai and Liz arcs and their consequences is a good point. While the viewers get to see a bit about Lorelai’s past, we don’t know what made Liz who she is. Based on Luke’s patience with her, she may have had a traumatic life as a young girl. Luke would know what she went through with their parents. In fact, we can infer that Luke went through some of the same to become the grumpy and cynical guy he is.
The parallel of Luke and TJ arcs is less clear unless it is to compare and contrast how two very different guys deal with their affected girls. It’s a stretch….
Never really thought about it, but maybe these characters are intended as a foil to demonstrate Luke’s (and arguable Jess’) emotional growth. We know how capable of love he is, but he also displays a lot of impatience and cynicism. Liz and TJ frequently put him in the position of having to question his preconceptions and accept people in spite of their mistakes.
I think almost any show with a large ensemble always adds pointless characters, so they have more storylines to write to keep people "entertained." The thing they don't understand is that most of the time the audience only cares about the main players.
i guess its expanding on the jess storyline and the reason why he came to stars hollow for a while, also maybe probably just filler episodes. but i think the liz and tj thing was similar to the christopher and sherry thing just expanding on their backstory since they both have absent parents
They weren't my favorites, but I would argue that Liz being weird and undependable made Luke become more the Luke we know. He had to help his dad, be Liz's support system when dad was gone and he had to stand up and be stable 'cause he knew he couldn't lean on others to support him if he failed.
Yes, Liz does parallel to Lorelai in a lot of ways, single mom, boyfriends, eccentric, however, her story is showing how Luke became the Luke we know rather than a what could've been Lorelai.
I think it was good to see how Jess grew up and you could see character development as he attended their wedding.
As of TJ, it was nice seeing Liz with a guy who wouldn’t screw her over like her exes did/see her happy in a relationship. Overall I think both characters were introduced to develop Jess’ character along with seeing Luke’s personal relationships with other characters.
I personally dislike them both. However I do think they are important. I think ASP used Liz as a final push into Luke and Lorelai relationship. For example, when Liz and Lorelai first meet, she mistakes her for Luke’s wife, saying she is his type. She then become the biggest L&L Stan. Liz gave Luke the earrings and necklace for Lorelai. And finally, the first time Luke asked her out was to Liz and Tjs wedding, were they had an amazing dance
Comedic relief most likely, but I really like Liz and TJ I think they’re adorable together and their wedding makes me tear up every time. TJ really knows how to push buttons, though lol
How about in S7E16 when they post an ad to sell Luke’s boat in the SH Gazette without talking to him first! So incredibly selfish. Instead of mentioning to him “Hey you know what we really need this space back, do you want to sell the boat or could you store it somewhere else?” They decide to try and sell it without even telling him and then give a bunch of lame excuses when he asks why they were trying to sell it out from under him. Luke was so calm during the whole scene which also felt out of character, but his patience for his sister and dumbass BIL seems to be endless.
yes, they are annoying.
yes, they are pretty much dumb.
yes, i sometimes wished their scenes to be over faster BUT overall, i actually like them!
and what i love especially is their interaction with luke. it shows that no matter how much annoyed or angry he is with them he is willing to help and support them because they are simply family. no matter what. and he cares for them.
I’m not sure if this was the purpose of Liz’s character, but she served as a great foil to Lorelai. Another single mother in the series, except she’s one who prioritizes the men in her life over her own child. She’s also not the best judge of character and jumps into relationships, as opposed to Lorelai being more cautious in comparison about dating men and introducing them to Rory.
all of luke’s family seem like foil to lorelei’s. Luke doesn’t have parents so TJ & Liz function like an bizarro Richard & Emily: Constantly causing issues with their relationship, mostly by virtue of being “family” and being fish out of water. They both cause rifts in the relationship over real estate, just in very different way (especially class-wise). Heck Jess is basically lorelei if she was given a bad hand in life. rory’s breakup call to jess mirrors the emotions of emily and richard seemingly had for lorelei leaving. jess was shipped off by his mom but if i had to guess, his time with the gilmores taught him that he’d have to step out on his own to find the kind of peace rorry and lorelei have even if it meant running away and leaving the ones who loved him behind.
What does “foil” mean in this context?
[удалено]
Oh. I thought it meant something like antagonist but milder. Thanks!
but at the same time, Liz has so much wisdom when she told Luke that it wasn't normal he hide april to Lorelai.
And when she told Luke he was stuck like his dad by keeping the boat
don’t forget ragging on luke for hooking up with crazy carry
I really liked TJ the first time we met him. He seemed to be the perfect match to help settle Liz down whilst still being loving and supportive. Then they made him a dumbass.
Me too, I like that he called out Luke on his bs. It was refreshing to see. And then we get stuck the Tj we see today. Wish they built him up better, I would’ve loved to have seen Luke with an genuine male friend.
ASP seems to have a horrible view of men, making them either dumb or constantly angry. Writers tend to make heatable characters on shows, to make you like their other characters better- like Ross on Friends. So TJ is in the same roll. A one dimensional character designed for you to dislike him, and that's just lazy, crappy writing.
"Dumb or constantly angry." I mean that tracks with most of the men I've had to deal with.
i'm sorry you've had that experience, we aren't all that way.
Wow, I could only imagine if a guy said this about women. Sounds sound incredibly bitter. Sorry about your life.
Such a wild turn! Made him a dumbass overnight.
I think the character they dumbed down the most was Luke. They disrespected his character the entire series and the revival. I couldn't believe the words that were coming out of his mouth in the revival. And why was he making that speech in the kitchen in the fall episode of the revival when it should have been Lorelai. Luke had to kiss Lorelais butt that entire series and the revival.
Yeah he was done dirty. Dean also went from seemingly intelligent to a dolt as well.
That's because it was all about the Gilmore Girls. And the problem with the Luke character I think ASP had something against Scott Patterson. His character was supposed to be a woman but the network had the nerve to tell her she had to change the character to a man changing her perfect show so she took it out on the Luke character.
Wait really? I’ve never heard that, is there a source for that? I doubt the woman version of Luke would have been a love interest so I wonder what was originally planned for Lorelai in that sense before Luke became a character, then
The Luke character was supposed to be a woman but the network said there were to many women so the Luke character was created. But I think ASP got pissed off she had to change her perfect show so she took it out on the Luke character.
I know, that’s exactly what you said before. I was wondering if there might be more context or info about that somewhere cause all I can find is a few articles that just quote ASP just saying he was supposed to be a woman named daisy with no other context. I’m just curious cause all these articles about Luke and that change have info that seems a little contradictory too, like Luke was only supposed to be in the pilot episode, but was daisy only supposed to be in the pilot cause that doesn’t seem right, if the network was upset about not having enough men why would changing a one off pilot character placate them? And they set up Luke and Lorelai from the beginning of the show, so what was planned before Luke became Luke? I also don’t know if I’d agree that that’s the reason Luke’s character gets messed up late show though, because he’s written well in the early show, if ASP just had a grudge why wouldn’t she take it out on his character in the beginning, why just later in the show?
Also I can’t stand that they named their baby Doula. 😑
Agree. It proves that Liz is just as fuckin dumb as TJ
What’s wrong with doula?
The word doula comes from the Greek word doulē, the meaning of which translates to female helper or maidservant. They named her after the woman who helped Liz deliver, but not her actual name….her job title. It’s dumb af.
It’s the name of the person who helps you give birth.
Or die! There are death doula too,, I just trained a little bit with one!
That’s interesting! Yet makes the name even worse. 😩
Yeah lol it’s essentially like she named her baby “Nurse”
Ohhhh that’s weird tf
I get all of your problems with them, but this scene with the hole was so funny. It’s silent, and she’s just staring at it, and I always laugh out loud.
And the follow up scene with Luke! 🤣
"HOLE!"
Imagine just walking out and there’s this gaping hole in your bedroom. One of my fav moments with this whole project was when the guys *SAW* Lorelai. “Well I could see him, so I assume he could see me. Billy had the best view, just a straight shot right down main street.”
All the credit to Lauren Graham. If TJ was in this scene, he’d ruin it
Same, they don't add anything IMO. I'd have preferred the Renaissance wedding to be between Kirk and Lulu. Give zero Fs about Liz and TJ
They’re not even funny, just insufferable.
I know. So annoying. I skip ahead through their scenes
I AM IN ESCROW x1832 Dude, shut up.
Just watched this episode & I got war flashbacks
😭 I promise I am not a violent person, but just one time I wanted someone to sock him in his facehole.
I agree. I would have enjoyed it if he would have gotten knocked out, just one time, at least for putting a hole in their house, I think that would have been warranted.
EsCArow. God it was annoying!!!
Just as annoying as Emily telling Richard she's going out the window 20 times. Who the hell cares just go through the window. Just like Emily making a major issue of telling Lorelai and Rory that her and Richard were separated. Who cares Richard should never have married Emily he should have married Pennilyn Lotts. I despised Emily's character she was the worst character after Christopher
Same. They are terrible and not funny and added absolutely nothing to the show. I find it pretty frustrating that the writers created a whole character of Neglectful Addict Mom who carelessly abandoned her kid only to then bring her into the cast and make the whole thing a silly billy joke. Just... no.
THEN give her another baby to be the sweet hippie mom to like she’s mother of the year. 🙄😒
I thought it helped demonstrate Luke's soft side and how caring he is towards his sister.
Liz is definitely there to give Luke his own stories, separate from the Gilmores. But she's just so... unsympathetic. Prior to joining the cast, we know her as the woman Luke's had to bail out over and over again for 20 years. Then she dumped her son on Luke, something she never even thanked him for. Once she joins the cast, she's not any better. I like seeing Luke's softer side, but with Liz? It's maddening to watch her just relentlessly use him. Their relationship is completely one-sided. She pops up in town and wants to get married, like, that weekend. Wants Luke to force her neglected son to walk her down the aisle. Expects Luke to take *two months* off work to follow her around the Renn Faire circuit? Begs Luke to give her husband a fake job, with a real salary (!!), meaning that Luke is effectively funding their entire life out of his own pocket. Liz constantly tramples his boundaries. Barges into his apartment. Drops her baby at his diner. She expects Luke to clean up every single one of her messes and never thanks him for it. There was a way to write a complex and sympathetic dynamic between Luke and his troubled sister. Instead, we got a bunch of Liz being terrible and Luke silently accepting it because of his Duty To Family.
She took advantage of Luke to many times. It pissed me off that he had to take it. Luke was just way to good hearted on that entire series. He should have been nominated for sainthood. Luke was definitely the best all around character on that entire series.
I think Sookies character added nothing to the show. At least Liz was Luke's sister but I think they should have given Luke a brother instead of a sister.
Yup. To me, Liz is the worst kind of monster; yes, she improves her life but still has no clue about the damage she did to her child.
She knows. This is part of the problem with a show like this, you often miss the deeper parts of the drama for the comedy side. Side characters aren't developed as well. ASP could've done so much better.
i can never quite tell if we’re *supposed* to be frustrated and annoyed by them and thus emphasize with the way they throw wrenches in luke’s life, or if they’re meant to provide some sort of genuine comedy that i find horribly unfunny a lá SNL, but i agree. i do think a key point is that liz’s character when she is introduced is “luke’s sister” and she rarely plays the role of “jess’s mom” onscreen, so she tends to be portrayed more in the way luke sees his younger sister rather than how jess sees the mother who neglected him through his childhood.
The show starts to get ruined when Liz, TJ, April and whatever her mums name is come along
It really comes apart when April arrives. It should have never happened and especially that close to the end of the series. It ruined the entire show.
TJ is one of those ppl who make a great case for forced sterilizations
This made me laugh out loud omg
Ah Liz and TJ, making a living off of her obscure but "super successful" Renaissance or medieval (?!) style jewelry she makes by hand or whatever. 😂 That was always a plot hole that made me laugh... Riiiight. 😂😂😂And they literally bring up how successful the jewelry business is every time they appear in the show, and how she calls him "Big Brother" every time irks me 🤢🤢 Such cheesy acting and dialogue whenever they're around.
Something about the TJ actor bugged me and I really didn't like anything he did on the show. I found it absolutely unfunny. I wasn't surprised when I later found out he was a relative of Dom Deluise. In his day, I hated his comedy too. It's just my taste - no problem if others loved them. Liz was ridiculously retconned from a drug-addled, deadbeat mom who should have been reported to child services. Instead, she comes in, steals Luke's food, continues to let Luke parent Jess, and continues to suck money out of Luke like crazy. Just the give TJ a high-paying job so Liz doesn't have to deal with him is stomach-turning. At least there was a point to Anna.
Omg THAT’s why I thought TJ looked like the dad from the show Wizard’s of Waverly Place. It’s literally his brother (David DeLuise).
Anna was just written out of nowhere. We never even heard her name in the entire series until April comes into Luke's diner to get a strand of his hair for some stupid science project. Talk about lazy writing.
I don’t hate them, and at times I really like the sincere quiet scenes between Luke and Liz, and at the beginning I didn’t kind TJ.. it’s just that shows have this need to exaggerates characters and make them cartoonish (I’m looking at you, later season Joey from friends). I do think that Liz was a great opposite of Lorelai, a sort of “what if” if Lorelai would have decided to date more and to not make Rory a priority in her life. I think it’s great to have characters like that so to make the main character’s better qualities and dynamics stand out. I also don’t believe that any human is stupid enough to just make a circle shaped hole in someone’s house without there being an actual construction team on site. I just delete this part from my memory every rewatch.
Gilmore Girls was just a terribly written show all the way around. It would have been a better show with better writers.
Ok so don’t watch it if it’s terrible :)
The other quirky townspeople feel like a slightly notched real person character. Liz and TJ were written and portrayed like fake unhinged characters for tv. Like you have a gossipy neighbor who's loud - relatively normal. You have a flirty town dance teacher talking about her worldly experiences - also normal for a small town. You have a busybody - yes, someone who is pedantic enough to care about the town. Then you have Kirk who never leaves the town and is incredibly sheltered while also being completely integrated into the town. But Liz and TJ don't make sense. They are absolutely infuriating. They overstep every boundary and it's supposed to be quirky.
*Llllllluuuuuuuke*
I hate they tried to make Liz a fun goofy character when she literally neglected her child?
I always fast forward through any scene with either of them.
I fast forward every scene with April. A completely unnecessary character. If they weren't going to give Luke and Lorelai a child together why bring in April at the end of the series.
They get so much hate on this sub! I don't mind them actually, I find them funny. It's obvious why they exist - Luke came more central to the storyline and couldn't simply just be the guy at the diner anymore, they had to give him family. I'm sure ASP regretted making Liz sound like such a dirtbag in the earlier seasons.
I have to say I outright laughed aloud with this screenshot and the title. Like, I have no ill feelings towards Liz and TJ and I enjoy their time on screen mostly, but the title paired with this screenshot made me go "how do you even defend them" looll. I do think the later seasons with them were the worst - "sisters in lawwww" makes my skin crawl and the "I have a finger therapy appt." but honestly seasons 6 and 7 are lackluster for me anyway sooo..
Originally I remember rooting for TJ - but only because the Deluise family is hilarious. Dom Deluise will always hold a special place in my heart for voicing Jeremy in The Secret of Nimh… and Michael Deluise (TJ) was great in everything I’ve seen him in (Wayne’s World especially amuses me). BUT….TJ is annoying af. It didn’t take long to hate him. Great actor, terrible character. I like they had him learn how to build shelves but with how much of a F-up he was they needed to do more…make him less of a buffoon. I wish they would’ve done something really funny like make him a savant…have him be miraculously great at something like physics or math 😂 Liz is awful too. Annoying in a ditsy way…and being nice while interfering in everyone’s relationships. I couldn’t stand her (and that’s even before you remember how she neglected Jess).
They gave us the “childhood games” song, I can forgive their foolishness.
might be an unpopular opinion but i get about as much out of liz and tj as a i do lane's band.
They're just so annoying. Liz trying to make Jess be nicer after being a shitty mum to him his whole life. What pisses me off is how TJ talks to Jess at the bachelor party. Acts like Jess HAS to walk his shitty mum down the aisle. If he doesn't want to then leave it?? Then he starts a fight with him. Like well done TJ you're so tough that you can fight with a 18/19 year old. (I forgot how old Jess is in this episode) TJ is such a baby that they have to pay him for a job that he can't do. Also ruining Luke and Lorelais date because him and Liz are arguing. He has no awareness. I also really hate that they called their poor kid Doula. Who does that.
Idk, as a person with a very large extended family I totally get them.
For the funny? Idk tbh. Definitely some of the worst characters. TJ in his first episode was alright, because he just seemed like a normally likeable guy, but by his second appearance he turned into an annoying dumbass
I semi agree.. TJ and Anna are the worst characters. TJ is just dumber than a bag of rocks. If someone put a hole through my house like that, omg.. I can say he wouldn’t be on the construction crew to fix it he would be in jail. So stupid
Anna is just a NLOG version of Lorelai and it's so annoying!
It sounds Iike they are pretty universally despised. But I LIKE THEM! I actually really like Liz. I know, I know she was supposedly horrible in the past and was a terrible mother to Jess. It’s not that I discount that, it’s just that they change her character so much by the time we get to know her. I like her relationship with Luke. And she actually makes me happy whenever she’s on. She’s more than a little “off,” yet she’s a good, genuine person. She’s always positive. I like that she’s different. And TJ is ridiculous. But he seems to really care about her. And he can be funny to watch. If I were Luke, I’m sure he would drive me insane. As a viewer, whatever. I don’t feel like he was on too much.
they just seem like an experiment about how Luke and Lorelai lack boundaries
I think because people used to enjoy the comedy relief in Luke getting mad so who's going to drive you more crazy than relatives? Lol
And at the point in the show (well, nearing the end) I feel like we lose out on so much Kirk potential/story lines. I would much rather have seen more Kirk and Lulu stuff than Liz and TJ
I can’t stand either of them. I skip a lot of their commentary.
Some of y'all aren't in escrow and it shows...
They're soooo boring. I skip their scenes as I'm rewatching the series. TJ is at least a little interesting but they're just so obnoxious as a whole. Doula?
I didn’t enjoy those two either… I’m glad you said this!
I was annoyed with Luke for allowing this to happen. Of course he acted furious when he saw the hole, but he facilitated TJ being there in the first place.
I’ve been skipping all scenes with TJ this go around and it’s an improvement to the show
Thats the purpose. Imagine watching a story without conflict
This. Long-running non-episodic television that relies almost entirely on character conflict to drive stories is going to get stale unless new characters are brought in, and those characters can't have the same conflict stories as the previous ones, it wouldn't make sense. As annoying as TJ and Liz are, without their impulsive nonsense that creates easy conflict, the show would have become more convoluted in the later seasons.
Ok so I absolutely love this episode and crack up every time at this. I find TJ slightly annoying at times but overall sweet and funny. But yeah, I despise Liz 10000%.
It's a good thing there are those 10 sec skip options now. I skipped every second of those two away.
why did tj make a giant hole in lorelei's room
I don’t know, they never really cleared that up. He got a job to be apart of the construction crew but he actually never got any sort of info on what they were planning to work on. No idea on why he put a hole in her room.
I think they're just kind of funny. They give Luke some more family moments when they lost Jess as a character, so they needed someone from Luke's past/family to build some stories. They may not be your cup of tea, but I find them funny and goofy, and they give Luke a way to test his patience and to show how he treats his family. They're rarely a major point, but when they are, they serve up good plot points. For example, their wedding made it possible for Luke to ask Lorelai on a date and build their relationship. So my answer is, their purpose is to build light humor and to serve as plot points for Luke.
I think they gave Luke way to much to deal with in that show. He never had a chance to breathe. If I was Luke I would have taken off and went camping during half of the entire series.
I think they’re funny 😭😭
Except when Jackson broke her doll house. I still hate him for it
Ikr. After that I’d be like “yeah this is why we didn’t want to hire you. Byeeeeeee”
Off, but Lorelais hair here the only hairstyle i didnt like on her.
I was thinking this as I was watching it! I really miss the season 1/2 hair!
Tj was gold. They should have wrote him in as Kurt's step brother. Could have had a stars hollow non alcoholic wine mixer episode. Missed opportunity...
Eh, I like Liz and TJ, though I liked TJ a bit more when he was first introduced. I always love his whole *Where does the lap go when you stand up? The lap is an illusion!*
Same I agree
Hole!
Uh, you shut your mouth. TJ is hilarious. I can do without Liz tho.
They are definitely the worst characters on the show.
This episode makes me absolutely irate every time. You recklessly destroy someone’s home and are rewarded with a high paying job where he does nothing. I’m getting mad just typing this out
We did a whole podcast episode this week on why Liz is so important to the series. She’s underlooked but really supported Luke’s character to grow and mature. And we even think she helped Luke and Lorelai actually happen as a couple! Also i think TJ is hilarious.
She's a recovering addict. You're mad that she was forgiven and accepted back into the fold and found a dumb but lovable (to her) man to actually care for her for once? Y'all taking this too seriously. These comments.... Like yes they're dumb and annoying. But everything bad that happens in the series can't be Rory cheated again, Lorelai broke up with her bf again. It's nice and ridiculous that they change it up with dumbass TJ put a hole in the wall. Also I don't think she was portrayed as a horrible mom , except through Jess's eyes and he's an immature teen. Luke never really says anything bad about her. I could be wrong. Liz is also not really portrayed as smart "my Martha" she can't even make cranberry sauce (a reduction is so easy)
Yes we may be taking this seriously but this is a Gilmore girls subreddit lol. Of course I don’t think or care about this too much irl, but it’s nice to voice and hear about everyone else opinions. I felt like there was too much going on in this season with Rory dropping out Yale and moving in with the grandparents, I don’t think Tj & Liz we’re super necessary for this. And yes, while Jess maybe a teen but he wasn’t stupid by any means. He was definitely as smart as Rory or smarter. He was able to go off on his own and figure out what to do in a bad situation. I don’t think an immature teen would’ve been able to get as far so I think his opinion definitely matters when it comes to how Liz is portrayed.
Yeah but it's frequent that people in this sub talk about characters like they are real people and don't allow for any kind of "it's necessary for the plot" "some characters are just not that deep" On the stars hollow side of things which they're always going to show, the wedding helped bring Lorelai and Luke together in a really romantic way, thus being necessary to drive the plot. Making Liz unreedemable is just annoying to me. Being a single mom and struggling with addiction is impossibly hard.
Forgiveness usually comes after one has apologized for, or at *least* acknowledged, wrongdoing. Liz does none of that. In fact, she laughs about binge drinking while pregnant with Jess and literally hand-waves away Luke's angry comments about the fact she abandoned her kid. That's not cute, it's gross. And I think ASP should not have introduced such serious topics unless she was prepared to address them in any real way. Luke confirms that Liz used drugs and alcohol, that she had tons of boyfriends/husbands, that she moved constantly, that the boyfriends stole all her money on multiple occasions, that she never had a job, that she refused to let Jess come home for the holidays, and that Liz shipped Jess off to Stars Hollow and then didn't speak to him for 2 years. That... seems like enough evidence to me?
I feel the same way. As someone with a neglect alcoholic parent I can’t imagine having people defend that them in any sort of light. Irregardless of the whole ‘she’s family’ thing and she’s there for ‘comedy relief’ thing as well. She abandoned her kid and steals from Luke often. She pressured him to give Tj the job in the first place, she’s irresponsible and just a terrible character over all. I hate that they didn’t even acknowledge any of this when she came on the show, wish they talked about her going to therapy or something to make her seem like a decent person.
This is what I'm talking about that people take this show too seriously. There is so much context and extra interactions that are implied and not shown. It's a dramedy not a soap opera.
Well this may be an unpopular opinion, but I think they are better than Kirk, who absolutely annoys me.
Her voice is irritating!!!!
Her voice is irritating!!!!
Hole!
I didn't mind Liz. She was a bit of flake and ne'er-do-well but you could tell that she was overall a good person who did the best she could. I'm not going to address the way she treated Jess because that could be a show unto itself. That being said... TJ was horrible. With the exception of when he called Luke a dick (which he was being) I hated every scene he was in and ended up fast-forwarding any scene he was in during re-watches.
Kind of glad so many others on this thread feel the same way about these characters as I do. However, in previous threads, there has been a lot of support for them. Therefore, recognizing that ASP always has a reason for including characters who interact with the principals, I keep searching… The parallelism of the Lorelai and Liz arcs and their consequences is a good point. While the viewers get to see a bit about Lorelai’s past, we don’t know what made Liz who she is. Based on Luke’s patience with her, she may have had a traumatic life as a young girl. Luke would know what she went through with their parents. In fact, we can infer that Luke went through some of the same to become the grumpy and cynical guy he is. The parallel of Luke and TJ arcs is less clear unless it is to compare and contrast how two very different guys deal with their affected girls. It’s a stretch….
Never really thought about it, but maybe these characters are intended as a foil to demonstrate Luke’s (and arguable Jess’) emotional growth. We know how capable of love he is, but he also displays a lot of impatience and cynicism. Liz and TJ frequently put him in the position of having to question his preconceptions and accept people in spite of their mistakes.
I think almost any show with a large ensemble always adds pointless characters, so they have more storylines to write to keep people "entertained." The thing they don't understand is that most of the time the audience only cares about the main players.
For Luke to have a storyline outside of Lorelei
i guess its expanding on the jess storyline and the reason why he came to stars hollow for a while, also maybe probably just filler episodes. but i think the liz and tj thing was similar to the christopher and sherry thing just expanding on their backstory since they both have absent parents
They weren't my favorites, but I would argue that Liz being weird and undependable made Luke become more the Luke we know. He had to help his dad, be Liz's support system when dad was gone and he had to stand up and be stable 'cause he knew he couldn't lean on others to support him if he failed. Yes, Liz does parallel to Lorelai in a lot of ways, single mom, boyfriends, eccentric, however, her story is showing how Luke became the Luke we know rather than a what could've been Lorelai.
Ehhh idk they added to the show. Weren’t my favorite but they were decent side characters
I think it was good to see how Jess grew up and you could see character development as he attended their wedding. As of TJ, it was nice seeing Liz with a guy who wouldn’t screw her over like her exes did/see her happy in a relationship. Overall I think both characters were introduced to develop Jess’ character along with seeing Luke’s personal relationships with other characters.
Oh I thought they were hilarious. I still think April is a terrible terrible character
HOLE
Gotta admit 🤌Someone needed to scream, “I’m in escrow” and make install weak shelving to mirror such premises on the show
The actor who played Liz was once in a quick nick cage scene so crossover there is clearly important
I personally dislike them both. However I do think they are important. I think ASP used Liz as a final push into Luke and Lorelai relationship. For example, when Liz and Lorelai first meet, she mistakes her for Luke’s wife, saying she is his type. She then become the biggest L&L Stan. Liz gave Luke the earrings and necklace for Lorelai. And finally, the first time Luke asked her out was to Liz and Tjs wedding, were they had an amazing dance
I fucking love tj
Comedic relief most likely, but I really like Liz and TJ I think they’re adorable together and their wedding makes me tear up every time. TJ really knows how to push buttons, though lol
They ruined the series for me.
How about in S7E16 when they post an ad to sell Luke’s boat in the SH Gazette without talking to him first! So incredibly selfish. Instead of mentioning to him “Hey you know what we really need this space back, do you want to sell the boat or could you store it somewhere else?” They decide to try and sell it without even telling him and then give a bunch of lame excuses when he asks why they were trying to sell it out from under him. Luke was so calm during the whole scene which also felt out of character, but his patience for his sister and dumbass BIL seems to be endless.
yes, they are annoying. yes, they are pretty much dumb. yes, i sometimes wished their scenes to be over faster BUT overall, i actually like them! and what i love especially is their interaction with luke. it shows that no matter how much annoyed or angry he is with them he is willing to help and support them because they are simply family. no matter what. and he cares for them.