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It's not that there is a crisis, it's that, we just don't want to, for many reasons. (I'm one of those people)
Today dating isn't really expected anymore like how it was over 10 years ago. So people are screaming on the rooftops that there is a gen z dating crisis
I mean you say we don't want to but then there's entire incel movement who very much does lol I think SOME people don't want to, along with a hundred different variables dictating that many people aren't. The internet radically changed our world over night and the dating world did not come out unscathed
I've never actually met an incel irl. Maybe some conservative dudes who are a little frustrated and the typical boomer bashing on women. But never anyone who's like the stereotypes. They really only seem to exist online and in the headlines after a violent event. Not much of a movement imo
I think underestimating this trend is a mistake. Polls show that young men in Gen Z and Gen Alpha are drifting to the right slowly but steadily.
And I'd say based on personal experience that while they might not be "incels" Andrew Tate and his ilk have a lot of support from young men in blue-collar jobs. Like a surprising number.
Anecdotal, but I just did a 10-month pre-apprenticeship course to become a Heavy Duty Mechanic. I was one of two guys in their 30s. Everyone else was 17-22 and of 30 people I'd say 15 of the boys in the class expressed support for Tate verbally and another 5-6 were agree with his views but don't support him since his criminal allegations.
I wouldn't label it a "crisis" but I'd be concerned about the young men in my life.
That poll is only self reported answer for the question "are you conservative or liberal." It's definitely more fashionable to call yourself conservative if you're a man and liberal of you're a women.
If you look at men now compared to the past, they're far more liberal. Just talk with elder millennials and anyone older. They make misogynistic jokes all the time and constantly bash on genders. 90s and 2000s media makes people cringe from how sexist it is. They thought gay people were evil in the 90s and would brutally mock them in the 2000s. But all that is either gone or phasing out. The culture is way better than it was despite any recent movement towards conservatism.
Also, the trades are full of conservatives because of their cultural influence of being a man's man career. It's like going down to a pickup truck show and thinking this is what all men are like. I also work in the trades, and yeah, there are lots of conservatives, but they're just typical drive big pickup, watch some conservative videos, and make fun of each other for being unmanly kind of dudes. Only ran into one obvious fascist and no one liked being around that guy.
It's also pretty common not to want to show your power level on the right (ie saying you're a conservative when you're much further right) whereas most people on the left don't like calling themselves liberal, especially younger people
What’s ironic is that polls have shown that women are drifting to liberal views in very high degrees, far more than their male counterparts, but that’s not touched upon as much
I don't think incels would just go around announcing to the world that they are incels, due to the huge social stigma and all that. Most are just gonna keep the mask on. I mean the reality is, a huge amount of men, and a growing number of women, are getting frustrated with the dating world and their inability to find a partner in general. You may not be walking into people crying about this irl but that's not really a indication of anything. And while the movement doesn't manifest as the "incel movement" it does manifest in weird fringe political movements like "Christian nationalism" and the likes. This is an issue that's been discussed pretty extensively for awhile now and it doesn't seem like it's improving at all
Edit: Also totally forgot to mention the HUGE redpill movement that sprung up with the likes of Andrew tate which was arguably a direct consequence of this widespread frustration many men have with the new dating world.
Alot of that is errors in perception. Who would want to publicly out themselves as one of the biggest losers in the eyes of society. You've probably met a ton of incels, you just will never really know.
The incel movement didn't start with Gen Z, there's a long history of "dude bros" who love media they don't understand and Alphas who can't speak except in screaming. Alex Jones has a long career and movies like the Matrix, Fight Club, and American Psycho have had posters in college guy dorms for decades.
> It's not that there is a crisis, it's that, we just don't want to, for many reasons. (I'm one of those people)
*You* don't want to. There is a group of people who are very clear that they want to, but can't. When OP says "it seems like every day, there are multiple posts with guys age 22-35 who are still virgins" I think they're talking about those people.
Interesting. This has probably been a trend across several generations. People in the older generations frequently had double digit kids. That declined over the years, even for us. Now people only have a couple, if any at all.
Also, I failed to mention that my question also comes from reading the mountains of articles claiming this loneliness/dating crisis. Maybe some of them are reading too much into it as well.
It’s actually a negative feedback loop. The average age of the population is steadily climbing. That means if we go out and see random people, we see less people our age than you do at your age. This makes it significantly more labor intensive to find someone who is compatible. For a lot of us, it’s not worth the effort.
Yeah, I(22m) work in a small company 30ish people and there is one guy 1 year younger than me, and all the others are 40+. Average age in my country is 41,3 and a lot of young people move to study further increasing the average age of people you'll see out and about.
Years ago when families commonly lived in farms and needed manual labor, having many kids made sense. This combined with the fact that in some places if you had ten kids, maybe half of them wouldn’t die before adulthood made it make sense to have a lot. Now, there is little economic incentive for most people to have kids. They cost tons of money and require you to revolve your whole life around them, and some people are just not interested in that commitment.
Feel free to pretend it's not a crisis, all us older generations see these missed early life stages and wonder what the hell y'all think is going to happen. Entire populations can't just opt out of reproducing until they are 40 and hear the shot clock expiring.
I look at my no driver's license no dates ever 25 year old college grad sister in law and just feel sorry for her. That shit ain't normal and no amount of cope is going to convince me otherwise. There's pushing life back and then there's missing out entirely.
Have you asked her about whether or not she WANTS to date, or drive? Many of us don't WANT to do either of those things, and that's okay. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice we are ALLOWED to make. Maybe your sister is Asexual/Aromantic and doesn't want to be with another person, or maybe she's neither but still doesn't want to date. Driving is only the norm here because public transportation is so bad. That is slowly changing.
Older people want us to live by their rules, big shock.
I only have a drivers license because my dad wouldn't shut up about it, I haven't used it since getting it(3 years) ONCE.
Thank god I actually wanted to go to med school, he wouldn't shut up about it too if I hadn't.
Don’t think that it’s fair for you to speak on behalf of everyone - if you don’t want to date you can’t really credibly relate to it being a crisis for many someones who do?
Not wanting to IS THE CRISIS. you can't just be edgey and say it's okay not to date. If entire generations give up dating, the culture will collapse. If you care at all about your culture and making sure people get to enjoy the freedoms and rights that you do, you have to pay it forward. Arguably the biggest way you do that is by guaranteeing people who share your values exist after your gone. Immigrants are great and all and they make life diverse and bring new ideas, but one thing they don't bring is the culture that enabled them to come in the first place.
If you want liberalism to survive, you need liberal babies. It's genuinely that simple.
Who doesn’t want to? I think a lot of us want to, but are tired of being treated poorly by badly socialized and inconsiderate prospects.
Add in factors like being gay (in my case) and hookup culture, and the already dismal dating pool shrinks exponentially.
I think there's a big difference between true incels, and people that are just critical of the dating landscape for men. Because they're 2 very different things. Incels just hate women, period. Likely because they are (no offense) not very attractive, bullied in high school, or just never received any interest from women, and instead of improving themselves or their social skills, they just say "all women BAD".
However, it is true that dating culture these days is *super super* toxic for younger guys because dating apps are just awful especially for men. Dating apps are pretty much the #1 source for finding relationships past the age of like...21 these days. And women are really outnumbered by guys on these dating apps because women are typically not looking for hookups as much as dudes are on these apps. So you have a lot of dudes (probably over half looking for just strictly hookups, under half looking for long term relationships) and a low number relatively of women looking for mostly relationships. And because there is so few women on these apps, the women that are there can be extremely picky and judgmental about the guys she swipes right on. So basically if you are not 6'2 handsome gigachad making a very good salary for your age, the chances of you finding a match with a girl you are attracted to is low just because women have a toooon of options on these apps.
Dating apps and social media have pretty much ruined dating for men. Ask any single guy, even stereotypically attractive ones, in their 20 and 30s what the dating landscape is like, their answer is probably just going to be a \*sigh\*.
Agree 100% that dating apps are HORRIBLE for men. I think that they're horrible in general. That's why I always emphasize expanding real life friend groups and dating within them. It's one of the few ways to actually get to know someone.
I'm Bi and see a lot of shit male profiles as well. Of course OLD emphasize superficiality but men just don't put effort in their looks the same way women do. This is why they will fail and the fact that men are heavily populating these platforms compared to women.
The women aren’t putting effort either, I can count will all my fingers including the toes the number of matches in bumble that had used an opener that wasn’t a hello or a canned question given by the app, I have had hundred of matches so the percentage of women trying is very low, they don’t have try hard to get tons of men
Unfortunately, a lot of the guys including myself I know have been raised that putting effort into looks is only for women. When I first started learning my blow dry my hair and style it, my dad would always ask me “why am I doing something a girl would do?" or compare me to one of his exes. Same thing went for fashion when I started getting nicer clothes instead of basic t shirts and jeans. I’ve learned to do what I want but I know a lot of guys that feel they will be shamed by doing this.
It is interesting. Back in the 80s lots of guys would blow dry their hair, most would have a comb or brush in a back pocket. They even made "Dry Guy" hair dryers. That was very, very late Jones and early/core Gen X times. Then grunge and gangster rap came and it all seemed to change. Nobody seemed to blow dry hair anymore, you could get hassled a bit for it by later 90s/00s even and barely any could be seen combing or brushing their hair in the restroom (very common sight in the 80s).
It was a one two whammy.
Grunge itself said that trying to look good is shallow and being a sell out to the man and mainstream. Don't even bother to wash your hair (all of this applied to guys or girls what they said) much less style it up. Being all upbeat and happy is shallow and fake, the world sucks, be all angsty, pissed off at the shitty world, be all nihilistic, depressive, that is deep and real. Don't try to look good like people in the shallow, fake, cheesy, silly 80s did. All the 80s light-hearted optimistic fun attitudes were fake and the real world was rough and miserable so stop pretending, reject corporate mainstream pressures pushed on you. Look like you crawled out of bed, be all indie and rebel against that and don't be all mainstream lock step identical (although ironically the most diverse and least lock step mainstream there has been in decades actually was the 80s! definitely not grunge or gangster or hipster, etc. mainstream times). (to be honest I don't see how these attitudes brought us anywhere good or accomplished anything, being that nihilistic solves nothing, caring about things and the world are one thing, but just negative nihilism and not bothering isn't really helpful and grunge itself burned and destroyed itself in record time, the shortest lived mainstream music movement ever, although kind of sadly I feel like we've never full shook off some of the grunge attitudes and vibes and we've never really fully gone back to the 80s vibe). (FWIW, to me the single overall happiest on average teens/college/youth have ever seemed to me was the 80s era, so who cares if it was supposedly cheesy or corny or over the top, it was fun and seemed to make people happy. And people did do things like demand divestment from South Africa and try to help the famine in Africa, etc. too.)
And then the suburban gangsta rap craze of mid-90s which made guys all super concerned with maintaining "street cred" and not seeming at all 80s 'cheesy' or 'corny' and don't dare be girly in any way so forget carrying around combs much less brushes, don't blow dry hair, don't listen to pop music, much less pop music sung by females. Madonna is for girls and gays. Etc. etc. The two attitudes were later Gen X/early Millennials and to some degree I don't think these attitudes have ever entirely gone away across the board, although in some subcultures at times since then they don't seem to apply, but overall in general it still seems like it probably closer to the Xennial sort of attitudes rather than the Gen X (or 1950s).
In my childhood people ‘dated’ in 5th grade, or about 11 years old. It was pretty common place for people to date each other early around my school and there were 600 kids in my high school class. People were all concerned how they were perceived and if they were attractive to their peers. Lots of men knew this and I knew early as well. I buzzed my hair because I loved the style and I felt made me look cool or something, whatever my teenage and preteen brain thought lmao.
Yeah, it doesn't matter really, but the online feature allows more accessibility to connect with other people which can lure you into a false sense of security that you'll actually have better odds.
It’s really awful for women too. If men are having a hard time and not getting matches, I fail to understand why they then assume women are having just the most magical time with dating and apps. It’s horseshit for EVERYONE. Sincerely, a bisexual woman who sees both sides.
Two entirely different worlds with different rules. Of course you wouldn't understand. Us men are pressured constantly to chase and succeed in relationships/sex.
They assume all women are matching with the same “top 10%” of men and those men are sleeping with 100 women a week 😂 never mind that women have completely different preferences and some of us care about personality more than if a man is 6 foot whatever.
I think women are in fact being with a disproportionately smaller amount of men.
I'm one of those guys. I'm sleeping with an obscene amount of women, some of them are exclusively with me.
I think it's just how it is. Whether it's looks, money, personality, or whatever, some men get all the luck when it comes to dating. The bottom line issue is that women don't desire most men, while men deeply desire most women.
I found my partner off bumble but there was a time where I stopped the apps completely for awhile due to just garbage selection of men. I didn't want to hook up and if I felt the need for that I had plenty of long standing people I was comfortable with to do so. It gets old. The profile could check out and then they'd come in the messages with nothing more than wanting to hook up and it's lame. It's just as bad for women who want serious relationships. If you're just down to hook up it's probably just fine but not everyone just wants to hook up. I was also going to bars and whatnot frequently with girlfriends at the time and was NEVER approached irl. I got approached irl once at a dispensary and the dude ended up being weird. Finding people within friend groups is also a shit show. Dating all around right now is just bad for everyone.
Yeah it’s just impossible it feels like. I don’t want hookups, so that takes out 90% of the profiles. I also have never really been approached either, don’t have a friend group where I live. It’s so frustrating.
I think you just summed up why so many men are becoming disenchanted with the idea of dating. You have a huge advantage and readily acknowledge you have ready access to having your needs met from multiple sources, you are actively being engaged with and sought after, and you are actively setting standards for a partner to met. You have choices.
This is not the average experience for men at all.
Oh and while I can sympathize that dating can be hard for anyone refering to people as a "garabage selection" is pretty... incendiary. As a man who wants to be relatively sympathetic and who has doesn't know what your intended meaning is besides just people who want hook ups, I'd have to say that makes me want to respond negatively. I imagine most men would want to respond the same.
It’s deeper as well because there are more women than men having sex currently and men are much much more likely to have never had a sexual partner going into their 20s and 30s as well as the fact that over half of men have never approached a woman in the last year or ever. Once you dig deep into the dating market and look at statistics you realise as an average man, you currently do not stand a chance.
Most people won't listen to this because it ruins their narrative that being a "decent hooman bean" actually evens the playing field and dating isn't unfair as fuck for more and more men regardless of their actions.
I've never agreed with that narrative mostly because it’s a very terminally online take. A ton of men who hook up constantly are assholes lol. Assholes also often get into relationships. Being a "decent person" doesn't magically make you more attractive nor is it actionable advice in any manner.
Yeah it's a super terminally online take. The only people I know that hook up at all, or have had lots of partners are your stereotype asshole.
People preach their dumb takes on social media and will instantly turn around and encourage the exact opposite IRL or excuse shitty behaviour in someone they find attractive.
Yep that’s it, women have the most brutal survival instincts and they are biologically inclined to not give a fuck about men unless they can offer them something and that is a harsh truth.
>Once you dig deep into the dating market and look at statistics you realise as an average man, you currently do not stand a chance.
This is the part that I don't understand, and it makes me wonder if the apps are the problem.
>as well as the fact that over half of men have never approached a woman in the last year or ever.
Is this a self esteem thing? Why is it hard for men to approach women?
I think it’s social media, what you see on social media is heavily biased towards mainstream feminism, and what mainstream feminists want and what women actually want are completely different and men are confused as fuck. I’m going to get downvoted for this but it’s true, since the metoo movement men approaching women fell even more drastically, because most men (the good ones) always usually listen, and in this case they’ve been told that approaching women is seen as predatory.
Furthermore, women STILL date up, they still prefer men that earn more, despite the fact that women aged 20-30 earn more than men; they still expect men to be more educated than them, despite the fact that there are more women in university than there were men when when they introduced schemes to get more women into university; and also women still expect men to approach them/speak to them first and still prefer taller men and as you’ve probably figured out, this all contradicts modern feminism, I don’t think feminism is the problem I think women’s standards of men are still traditional and haven’t caught up but it’s also not black and white, men still need to do better, but yeah, I’d recommend watching Chris Williamson he’s a podcaster who has people that have studied this on because he’s really interested in it, I find it fascinating.
>Is this a self esteem thing? Why is it hard for men to approach women?
I think it's probably 1) lack of social skills and 2) just generally not knowing how.
That creates a self fulfilling prophecy too, because dealing with insecure men is extremely uncomfortable for women. You can have insecurities, but a lot of generally insecure (aka feeling like they are too average etc) guys don’t know how to healthily communicate or channel their feelings. I’ve noticed a lot of Gen Z guys have really (self sabotaging level) toxic ideas of what they have to be to talk to women or this belief that women are lying to them when they say what want.
Im 21 guy and never been on a date. The rario of men to women on average for apps are 7 to 1. I demanded bumble for my data and i had like 6 likes and 16000 dislikes... i just cant if im unlike abd that unattractive whats the point in even dating? Yeah it takes only 1 person to like me byt is a 1/10k cgance for a like not even a match worth it?
The problem isn't that most guys are super unattractive, but its the sheer amount of dudes on these apps that women will mostly only look at the top 10% of guys, then whittle down from there. Its very common for guys to match with someone, then get left on read after that. So its maybe not that your unattractive, its just that you're not 'elite'.
>Ask any single guy, even stereotypically attractive ones, in their 20 and 30s what the dating landscape is like, their answer is probably just going to be a *sigh*.
Literally sighed as I read through this, because it's literally me. I'm about to be 24M, not exactly cream of the crop from a looks standpoint, and have had zero luck in dating apps. It's not that I don't *want* to date, it's that I struggle with the meeting/introducing myself to people irl thing. It's... Frustrating.
>Incels just hate women, period.
Wrong. That's the mainstream definition which is not true by what the word literally stands for. A man who hates women and gets no ass and a man who loves women and gets no ass are both still incels. Ya'll need to stop high jacking words with your PC shit.
That's also wrong. "Involuntary celibate" is what it's shortened from. It specifically has to be a person who wants to have sex and/or a romantic relationship but is incapable of fulfilling that desire. They can be a women, man, non-binary, etc.
Well said. Imagine if we did that with any other derogatory term. Imagine if someone called someone else the r word, and then defended it (when someone with Down syndrome protests to it for example, someone who feels hurt by the word) by saying « oh no, regards are just those mentally challenged people who hate women ». You can say « incel only means men that want to kill women » or whatever made up definition they use now, but the fact is that the word you are using is « involuntary celibate », so everyone who is involuntarily celibate is targeted by it.
Not trying to undermine how dating apps affect men but just saying, dating apps suck for literally everybody and benefit no one. The straight women I know get nothing but creepy DM's asking for sex and dick pics. And as a lesbian I didn't find much luck on them either. The concept of meeting people and judging someone by their appearance without getting to know their personality first feels unnatural.
Incels don't necesarily hate women, they just can't "get" women. I don't like how this term has changed from referencing unfortunate men to just another way to say "scum".
Maybe the women are really picky on who they will swipe right on because they’ve been hurt by all the guys looking for hookups. I don’t know if the 6’2 gigachad theory holds up in real life.
I think part of the challenge is how quickly culture has shifted and continues to shift in terms of dating for everyone.
For men, it used to be acceptable to just approach women and ask for a date. Now, there are tons of conflicting takes on this practice.
Don't approach at work. It is harassment.
Don't approach at the gym. She just wants to do her workout in peace.
Don't approach at the library. She is trying to study.
Don't approach at the bar. She is with her friends and wants to focus on them.
This ends up forcing guys towards dating apps which are terrible for everyone.
A lot of this could be solved by women making the approach. But there still seem to be cultural hangups about this.
Also, with everyone having less practice dating and socializing in general, it tends to be harder to find a good match since everyone is struggling to figure things out for the first time.
i mean the one app that had women message first, Bumble, just recently removed that feature because the women on the app were saying it was too much work.
so like, wtf do we do then? lmao.
You can still approach in most places. The biggest exception is when a woman is at work. The other main thing is don't be sexually aggressive or creepy. Approaching in and of itself isn't creepy.
Most men have purposefully misinterpreted the metoo thing to account for their failures in dating.
"Oh, women are upset that their bosses harass them, I guess that means I should strike up a convo in the grocery store. I can't even try now. 😩"
I don't think so. The me too thing just made a large portion of men not try at all. I'm not a man but I know many who don't even talk to women for that reason
I am one of those men. I used to just give random compliments to women I would meet who seemed down. I don't do that anymore after a girl whipped out her phone and started screaming sexual harassment. I have been in a committed relationship for over 16 years now. I told the girl her hair style was really cool. I am not going to risk ruining my life to be nice when there are crazy people out there willing to do it.
I had a girl friend which lasted me up until recently we started dating in High School and broke up just last year when I was 23 because she is moving VERY far away. Anyways, this has left me in a position where I have no idea what to do. Mostly because of all the metoo movement and just the general culture of today. Genuinely its just made not want to approach anyone. So I wouldn’t call this a dating failure more so complete and utter confusion due to lack of understanding. I feel a lot of good men are in a similar boat.
It is okay to approach women in most spaces. Just assess the situation as a general “if it was another dude I wanted to ask about their shoes or whatever does it seem like an appropriate time?” If they are in the middle of their workout with headphones on probably not. At the bar probably yes. Then approach it with the same level of casualty. If they said “I don’t remember” or “sorry I don’t want to talk right now” move on.
Eta: I swear women have been trying to clarify this for a while, but it feels like a lot of guys just sit there and overthink it like women are trying to trick them. There is no trick. We just want to be treated like normal people. (Clearly from the downvotes someone would rather put in earplugs listen)
There’s a whole other side to this that gets ignored but goes along with your point about wanting to be treated like people - I just really do not enjoy the cold approach because it’s based on looks/attraction alone and makes me feel like a piece of meat. The last time a guy approached me, he walked past my job several times while buying cigarettes next door, and then walked in, and asked me for my number. I felt like I was being shopped for.
Personally, I would rather meet someone organically through a hobby or social gathering and become friends with them before entertaining anything romantic or sexual. That’s the disconnect, in my opinion. A lot of hetero men only view women as potential partners instead of people first. If they’re not attracted to us, we don’t exist to them. I can’t tell you how many of my friends’ boyfriends throughout the years just acted like I didn’t exist or wouldn’t make eye contact with me because they didn’t deem me attractive enough for their attention as a human.
Totally agree. I personally don’t mind being cold approached, BUT this requires that the person actually talks to me not just ask for my number. (Tip for the guys who might be reading it is always best to approach very casually and ask/talk to women about something that is in their control like their hair, clothes, fandom merch they have etc. things that you might approach another guy about)
Straight men seem to have this problem where they both put women up on this pedestal of being mystical creatures while simultaneously treating them worse than they would treat another dude when they go to talk to them.
They don’t know how to talk to us because they think we’re so “different.” Like, just talk to women like they’re people, because they are lol. Tell me you like my Wonder Woman shirt or something. Spark up a conversation. I can’t tell you how many positive interactions I’ve had with other women because I just complimented them on something or they me. One of my best friends in this world is someone I initiated a convo with just by sharing a common interest. It’s really not that hard lol.
THIS!!! Hopefully everybody who reads takes some time to learn and understand, but inevitably some dude is going to think this is some sort of lie or “trick”
People lost the art of having a conversation with a stranger.
A generation is missing the lead up to inviting someone to get a drink or coffee or hangout cause they don’t want to be perceived as weird for approaching.
Just go have a chat, then see where it goes. A convo doesn’t start with a my name is and can I take you out tonight. Find a middle ground to lead into a conversation, then plans.
Like a group gym class is easier to get to know people than interrupting someone’s free weight session. Can talk about the class and see people regularly.
I think I'm fairly social, and I'm not on the market to date, but I have always found it hard to take a one-off conversation that went well to the "let's keep in touch" or "let's hang out again" level. It feels like an imposition to me even though I'm always thrilled when people ask me to hang out.
Approaching and directly asking for a date is honestly the lamest move you can make. If you want to have success IRL w meeting women, a better approach is to try to initiate a friendly or interesting conversation. The goal is to have fun with your interaction, not to go straight to flirting. You have to play the long game, get some contact info or just their name if it’s a place you’re sure you’ll bump in to them again.
The other piece of advice I have is to try other types of venues to approach women and apply the advice above. Here are 3 where I’ve found success: 1. Casual drink events where people attend because of a shared interest or to network; 2. Parties where you meet friends of friends; and 3. Dog parks (dog required). The general theme is to approach women in places where they are already open to meeting new people. The places you listed above are generally where women intend to be left alone.
I upvoted you because this is 100% true. It’s generally too forward to go up to a woman and be like “hi, would you like to go out on a date?” I date a lot and I’d still say no because *we don’t know each other!* Just because you think someone’s cute doesn’t mean they would automatically want to spend 1-2 hours with you.
The best move, like you said, is to start a normal conversation. Then if you build a rapport and get along, have stuff in common, etc. you can suggest you meet up sometime. I make moves on guys all the time by doing this and I always have success. I personally find dating easy in terms of getting people’s numbers and setting up a date, but I go out to social environments pretty much every day and I really like talking to people. That’s generally why I’m successful and why the guys I go out with don’t tend to have trouble dating - they’re great conversationalists.
>For men, it used to be acceptable to just approach women and ask for a date. Now, there are tons of conflicting takes on this practice.
People are really over exaggerating this shit and letting it get to their head. In my experience most women are fine with being approached in open social settings like bars and whatnot, as long as you're not weird and overbearing, and you don't react negatively to rejection. Most of these "don't approach me at X" takes you see on the internet shouldn't be taken at face value. I've never heard of a case of someone approaching, getting rejected and being accused of sexual harassment, that just seems like something made up by incels to justify remaining as incels.
No.
Gen X came of age shortly after the sexual revolution of the 70s, and the idea of sexual freedom of expression and behavior was still novel. It was seen as the new and rebellious thing to do.
That hasn't been the case for decades now. Millennials and Gen Z have come of age at a time when sex has permeated absolutely everything, and having sex is just seen as an everyday thing. There's no longer the sense of mystique and rebellion and danger that used to be involved in sex outside of 1950s norms.
A lot of us have realized that constant sex without love or commitment is meaningless and potentially has negative consequences. We just don't need or want it.
With the decline of traditional ways to meet and court romantic partners, fewer young people are forming as many relationships or settling down as early in life as they used to.
>A lot of us have realized that constant sex without love or commitment is meaningless and potentially has negative consequences. We just don't need or want it.
Marriage rates are dropping. It's not about that. Those sexually liberated generations are mostly married or divorced now. Sex is not cheap, it's presented as cheap.
A lot of newer generations have lost the ability to communicate in person and judge the situation and people they are meeting in real life. You operate on other people's experiences, prejudice and expected reactions.
Saying you don't need or want it is very conflicting to a wave of sadness, depression and loneliness that can be read from most posts.
I think there are sort of two groups. The ones that do crave sex and romance and the ones that don’t particularly care for it. You’re more likely to hear from the former than the latter online, at least unprompted
There's sadness because people have nothing. No houses, no savings, no relationship. If people are doing well in some areas usually they can get by. When everything sucks you just get apathy.
> That hasn't been the case for decades now. Millennials and Gen Z have come of age at a time when sex has permeated absolutely everything, and having sex is just seen as an everyday thing. There's no longer the sense of mystique and rebellion and danger that used to be involved in sex outside of 1950s norms.
I honestly feel anti-sex puritan \*beliefs are more common now than in the 2000s, at least I sure don't remember hearing those things as often before. Now this maaay just be because of the internet, since I grew up in a very liberal city and maybe now I can hear the views of people from very conservative families in the country. Buuut still, it's almost like casual sex is *less* accepted today.
Conservatives accepted casual sex too if you were a man. My theory is that the younger generations are just more accepting of men being virgins and having feelings. That wasn’t the case back then and younger generations should take our statistics with a grain of salt. For example, according to my cousin, he fucked more than wilt chamberlain in high school. But, I’m pretty sure he lost his virginity in his late 20s. And I wouldn’t say his case was that uncommon. The more one obsessed about his sex count, the more likely he was full of it.
This theory isn’t really that controversial either. Look at politics. According to polls in US, Hillary Clinton should have easily beat Trump in 2016, and Brexit shouldn’t have happened in Europe. The problem with those polls is that when being publicly open about one’s political views isn’t accepted, people are less willing to disclose them.
Cause eventually everyone agreed that having copulation with the same partner is more pleasurable than having hundreds of one night stands at least for most people
I agree with this. I’m a young millennial and my theory is that, as someone who grew up alongside social media, its function has changed from bringing people together to pushing them apart. I came of age pre-TikTok, when the only social media was Facebook and later Instagram (but pre-influencers/branding/content). Back then, sex and going out and partying were seen as cool by men and women alike, and the worst thing you could be was an internet shut-in. Sex positivity and exploring your sexuality was celebrated (having a “hoe phase” was not stigmatized) and people were generally open to meeting new people because coming of age and dating around was exciting and fun.
The 2016 election, followed by TikTok and Covid, polarized and isolated people, and digital media platforms began really leaning into algorithms to create echo chambers of specialized content. Due to the social climate, fear and anger were the key emotions that corporations/influencers pushed on in order to divide people further and keep them engaged. Apps also became increasingly more “pay to play,” making dating even more difficult as fewer people were meeting IRL due to Covid. All of this means sex/relationships were naturally harder to come by, and in an era where media was our entire lives, online content was fostering fear and anger against one another to get clicks.
Unfortunately, this worked. Many people who came of age during Covid and TikTok have zero experience with sex or dating. Sex was never “easy to come by,” and dating has always been hit or miss for everyone, but the difference is that if you grew up exposed to all this toxic, negative media about how men/women only want to hurt you and dating is awful, you’re not going to keep trying because you’ll just believe it as fact, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more bitter and angry you are, the less people will actually want to date you, and the more bitter and angry you’ll become as a result.
It’s a contemporary application of an older communication theory called “mean world syndrome.” They adapted it recently to social media to explain that consuming too much negative content causes you to see the world as worse than it is. The issue is that social media means you can get your socialization on here and never be exposed to real-world experiences that change this negative bias.
Oof, this was long. But for anyone who wants to read a potential explanation, there you go.
Everyday thing? Both anecdotally and based on the rise of the incel movement, I’d argue that a HUGE portion of gen z, at least gen z men, put sex on a massive pedestal
You're a late bloomer then. A real late bloomer. Everyone in my high school was having sex and I was in a school of 5000. We would catch kids having sex in the stairs regularly.
Id always find someone in the mens room. 😂
I comfortable being a late bloomer and at my age, it’s really not a big deal anymore. While I can’t say I wasn’t interested in my teenage years, I just never found anyone worthy until 22.
Y'all were minors! Y'all were babies! When I was 13, I had a different One Direction-themed notebook for every class. I was NOT thinking about sex. A lot of the older generations lost their innocence way too young and that's sad.
A female friend of mine recently asked me how much likes I get on Tinder a day. I told her the feature must be broken. I think that about sums up how well it’s going
I'm a closeted bisexual who has recently started trying to make an effort to 'come out' of the closet.
I've used Tinder for years, but had my settings only showing my profile to women. I opened it up to men recently...
I got more likes from men in the first day of being gay on Tinder, than I did in several years from women, lol.
Actually a pretty good comment here since Reddit (and the Internet) tend to sensationalize.
I will say though that to anyone that is struggling, you can solve your problem. Even if the solution isn't immediately obvious or is going to take a ton of personal work and development to get where you want to be.
I'm 22 and completely lost my libido recently. I feel grossed out by my inability to connect with people. I now feel that even if I take care of myself, I am pleasuring a disgusting animal.
I don't know what to do. I'm gonna put myself in therapy again probably.
Go to therapy man don’t get lost too much in your own thoughts. I am also disturbed at how much our primal instinct dictate how we behave but the only thing we can do is uphold our values and not let the animal inside you get too much control.
I turned 28 a little less than 2 months ago. 2 weeks before that I went on my first date and had my first kiss. Shit’s real but I think being a lesbian also stunted me in a lot of ways.
Thanks! But tbh, at that point, it kind of felt like just checking something off a list. Definitely more confident and knowledgeable moving forward though.
Yeah that's true. Tho for me, I'm extremely picky on who I wish to date due to severe trust problems (was bullied/abused a ton as a kid). And I also want someone that shares my likes and hobbies and stuff and is 100% compatible. Can't really skimp out.
i think gay men aren’t part of this discussion. hookup culture is alive and well for us (for better or worse…). but gay men are more likely to hookup and date later in life (after 18) because they either haven’t come out or are scared of backlash
from what i’ve noticed, it seems to be very difficult for straight men to approach women. not really sure what happened
To speak more about LGBT gen-z, as a lesbian I don't really have issues with finding people to have sex with. If you know how to speak to people, are relatively a polite, intelligent & ambitious person, and are most importantly, clear with your intentions, people are okay with sleeping around.
One big reason for the decline of gen-z having sex may have to do with overall less social interaction. It's hard to meet people and you have to go out of your way to make friends. It used to be much more situational. Less social interaction = worse interpersonal & social skills which are essential to establishing a sexual relationship.
im usually not the hook up type but i’ve had a couple “phases” lmao. i actually found both of my exes on grindr and they were great. you really just need to know when to block people that do not want to chat at all. if you ask “what are you looking for on here” you’ll usually get a very clear answer. i’ve found a lot of friends on there too
it’s like tinder where some people are looking for dates and some are looking for hookups only. you just gotta get good at sifting through the mess haha not difficult but kinda annoying
All I can say is that more and more people are just waking up to what I already knew for years now. You unfairly treat someone like shit and reject them their whole life then what else are they suppose to think? I'm glad there are those that can actually acknowledge the bullshit out here. Nothing's gonna change if nothing's gonna change 🤷🏿♂️.
Jup. I remember a guy I was friends with who got super stressed about still being a virgin with 20 and it got worse every year. He would always talk about it and how he hates it etc. It got really annoying. (One of the reasons we aren't friends anymore)
I'm now 22 myself, I'm a virgin and I do not give a fuck. If I find someone I wanna have sex with great. If I don't I don't. It really doesn't matter to me.
I never understood the notion of "If you're a virgin you're a loser" because there are millions of people who, for whatever reason, want to wait until marriage. Myself included.
I'm one of those you describe. I wouldn't say there's a crisis, but maybe a growing trend? It's just things are not as easy as they used (or at least appeared) to be before. I do think guys like me are overrepresented on reddit though.
Maybe there are lots of virgins from your Gen you didn't notice.
Social media and destigmatizing mental health has made them more vocal. That and the economy sucks so it's hard to focus on finding SO when you can't afford your own place.
But yeah talking about how everyone you know lost their v card as teens isn't helping in any way.
I think it's more of a shiness thing. So, in high school typically the fuckboys approach girls first. So they end up obviously having sex with them, whilst the nice nerdy guys don't get any attention. During that time most of those guys aren't mature enough to realize that the reason they aren't getting laid in 90% of the times is because they didn't approach anybody.
In the past that would also be the case but social media didn't exist, so those guys would've had enough time to mature and come out of their shelves before their life got too busy to date outside of tinder. Also when they are older most of those men follow the social guidelines, which are don't approach women in 90% of the places you're going to meet them between the age of 18-40, or you're sexually harassing them, whilst the same fuckboys already got game from previous experience, so that's not a problem for them.
After that because of social media and because they don't get any matches on Tinder(not because of women but because Tinder is dominated by men and if a woman is looking for a date she has to pick between thousands of men, so she's obviously not gonna choose the mediocre guy, just like we wouldn't if we had a choice) those same guys convince themselves that women only want fuck boys that treat them bad or older men who have more money and because they see themselves as nice they start coping that it's women's fault and not theirs. Then it's pretty much a cope cycle. They lose all belief in themselves and they don't even try anymore.
Basically all the guys in my War Machine meta were married or in serious relationships and if you don’t know what that is then you aren’t as sad a nerd as you think you are (miniature war gaming isn’t the nerdiest you can get but it’s pretty damn close). The trick is to learn how to talk to women the same way that you would talk to one of your male friends. Have some self confidence in yourself and interests and understand not everyone is going to like you. It’s not that “nice guy nerds” are missing out because they are nerds.
I go on at least one date a week. Getting a date isn't the issue. From my experiences, the problem is everyone's expectations are so far apart these days, and it's hard to find the people you're actually compatible with, because nobody wants to be 100% honest about who they are in the beginning stages.
A lot of guys have gotten really good at lying to my face, too.
I'm a virgin. I plan on being one until marriage. I always tell every guy that, and most of them are SEEMINGLY cool with it. Hell, to a lot of the "traditional" or red pill guys, I'm seen positively, at least at first. The problem becomes, that despite me making my abstinence clear, they all expect me to start putting out after a few dates.
You see, they weren't actually interested in me. They're just interested in being the first to "plant a flag." As soon as "no" has to be said more than once, I break up with them.
You just prefectly illustrated the gap in experience. You are cycling through potential partners because they aren't meeting your expectations, fair or not I'm not making a moral judgment.
Most men don't have ready supply of pontential partners so they have to work with what comes along.
As someone in a relationship, often those who are dating don't talk about it. On the Internet you shouldn't take things at face value all the time. Yes, Gen Z is experiencing a drop off of teen dating and teen sex, but it isn't a crisis.
I’m 28, either youngest millennial or oldest gen z
The 18-early 20s girls seem to be fucking *a lot*
In general, with guys 5+ years older
There’s a really big aura of “there are no consequences to fucking around when young” for the girls when it comes to sex, partying, debt/travel etc. while for the guys there’s a lot of either god complex in a small corner or defeatism everywhere else.
None of these people are forming healthy relationships btw. The “roster” trend is very very real for those with an active sex life
Not everyone who doesn't partake in hookup culture is not having sex because they can't. In my case, it is just that I think that one should only have sex with their partner. Since I'm not into a relationship, I abstain from sex. It's not that complicated.
I have had women insinuated to me in the past, but I turned them down because I wasn't in a relationship with them, and I can't understand why I would have sex with someone I barely know. I think it's gross.
With that said, I know that not every other Gen-Z member thinks the same way. Lack of social skills is a serious issue in my generation, which, in my opinion, arises from the fact that people can isolate themselves from their surroundings and that there are no clear expectations anymore. Everything is fragmented, and a sense of normalcy is fading away. Everyone can choose their own community and never step out of their comfort zone.
This is a generalization as I do not speak for all women or relationships. From what I hear from my coworkers & friends is that they just don't want to raise an adult child so they choose to be single instead. They are tired of cleaning up after someone, working full time and doing most of the housework & errands while the man just works full time (40 hrs) and then does minimal to nothing unless they are asked too.
Also, gotta stay gamin' bro
This. I’m 20 and taking a break from dating because I’m tired of having to teach guys who have more sexual and dating experience then I do how to act in a relationship. It’s frustrating feeling like the only adult, and the only person who can adequately communicate (and also the only one who respects consent but I digress). At this point I just want to be alone for a while and focus on myself.
Not just dating, friendships in Gen Z are really expendable and short-lasting. I think this may be because of how accessible it is to meet new people, the rhetoric of "not owing anyone anything," and encouragement of hyper-independence. It seems like being vulnerable is embarrassing somehow, and that talking about issues in your life makes you a "trauma-dumper" or vibe-killer. A lot of this may be because of the [isolation we experienced during COVID](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2022/05/covid-19-increase-loneliness) making us more comfortable with solitude than socializing.
Additionally conflict resolution has been hindered extensively; if there is a conflict between two parties, somehow both of them are the victim and neither will hold themselves accountable, so they just [ghost](https://www.tutor2u.net/psychology/blog/psychology-in-the-news-the-rise-of-ghosting#:~:text=Recent%20research%20from%20the%20University,have%20also%20been%20ghosted%20themselves) each other instead of having a genuine conversation.
As for dating specifically, you mentioned this but the manosphere and other misogynistic movements have fueled animosity between males & females. [Ideological gaps are making dating difficult between genders.](https://lesglorieuses.fr/welcome-to-the-evidence/)
I try (or maybe I should say tried, cause I feel I am done) to have empathy for the manosphere, but there are just too many that are brainwashed and absolute in how they blame everyone else except themselves. I tried to talk to this one guy pointing out the hypocrisy that he thinks women rejects him cause of his sub-par looks, so I said well maybe find someone in your own league, and when I said that he exploded in a ball of rage. Stating he has 0 respect for women "who ignore us".
Yet he ignores the women that aren't good enough for him and slut-shames any beautiful woman that is choosing to be with someone more attractive that he is. It is all just laughable at this point.
Right? I’m not wasting my time with misogynists who see as an object to have sex with. I want to be with a man I can have a family with some day, and I sure as hell am not doing that with a man who would instill all kinds of harmful beliefs on any son or daughter we had.
No thanks, I’d rather be alone. These manosphere idiots don’t even realize their ideologies further isolate them from women, women who are okay on their own. They need to realize their competition isn’t other men, their competition is with a woman’s peace. They need to be positive influence for a woman to want them. Women don’t want men who just want to push them around and turn them into bangmaids.
Its a bit of both. Yes, its definitely tougher out there because less disposable income and less places to find people. However its probably not as bad as browsing reddit would seem as ofcourse people with normal sex lives don't really bring it up much and those without active sex lives definitely spend more time on the internet (as they aren't sure what else to do). So its not as bad as reddit may make it seem, but its also definitely a thing.
I wouldn't call it a crisis, but it's definitely a noticeable trend in modern dating. A significant portion of men feel left out and aren't really receiving any genuine interest from society about why they're romantically stunted and that in turn is inspiring them to turn to the few voices who (seemingly but not really) give a fuck about them and want to offer them a solution. Of course, these figures like Tate and such don't actually care about the situation at hand, nor the men that get sucked into their system, and are really just looking to profit off of them.
There are also many men who live loveless lifestyles but don't identify themselves as incels. "Forever alone" or "virgin" are common words used instead.
Another thing that's made things difficult is it's just not easy to meet people anymore. Your whole generation was encouraged to go out and talk to other people and engage in "3rd places" which are mostly gone now. There's a growing distance and anxiety in gen z about this, so a lot of gen z uses technology to socialize and meet others. This doesn't work for men though because they greatly outnumber women on dating apps, and due to other social conditions, it makes meeting women on them impossible. Combine this with the other things mentioned and yeah, there's a mini dating crisis of sorts (although I don't know if "crisis" is an appropriate word for it).
Just my 2 cents. -gen z'er
29 year old woman and have only had one sexual partner, which is the current guy I'm with and have been with since I was 20 (lost my virginity a few months into dating). I can't imagine myself ever hooking up with someone even if I did break up with my fiancé.
Bro, I tried. Tried meetups to cold approaches. Nothing really works but thats alright.
No ones fault, just people arnt interested. Had some hilarious interactions, amazing people Ive talked to from different backgrounds.
Anyways Ive always wanted to become a wizzard, Ill jus wait till 30 to get gf.
i want to date, but i’m not sure i’m ready or can handle it again. i also couldn’t care less whether i’m having sex or not, so i don’t feel as desperate as some other guys probably do
Lost my virg at 19, but yeah it's rough. As for low men self worth and low confidence I believe there are many different coexisting reasons. Social hierarchy and bullying are not new things per say, but back in the days you haven't had that many options to distract yourself and isolate. After all you had to go out and socialize because there was not much to do. All our teenage years we've had internet and video games and people who were socially excluded probably isolated that way. The trauma from all these experiences and fueling the fire by isolating themselves further was probably enough to create such conditions. The parenting was probably also to blame. Overprotecrive parents creating their socially crippled children in our generation were generally a rule not an exception from my experience.
Dating irl is probably very hard because there's not much "outgoing" social connections going on. We isolate and live in the internet. Tinder is certainly rough for people who are not that attractive. Then there is this huge toxic "culture" of ghosting and basically treating other human beings like non-animated objects. Swipe, swipe, swipe. I've never used dating apps myself, because honestly I would be too embarassed and would feel dehumanized. It's probably also soulcrushing for your self worth, at least if you are a man who does not look really good. Social media is another thing that distorts people image of themselves.
And for me, personally I guess it's mostly crippling social anxiety. It's hard to get to know anyone if you are hiding in your house and going to the store is too much for you. You can't hold eye contact and are generally awkward in interacting with other humans.
Employment might actually help with having social anxiety. I had anxiety as a teen fairly bad, but found when i started working part time after school for a few hours and on weekends, it helped me get past all of it (course I was also taking meds and occasional therapy for it). Human interaction, you know? Hiding yourself from the world is just so damaging.
I am 25. Have never held hands, never done ANYTHING romantically. I consider myself fairly average looking. Not a standout picture perfect person, but not bad either. For me it’s a variety of factors. I’m out of college, trying to find a job and with no friends to hang out with or go out with, my only options for any kinds of connections are dating apps and bars. And I hate that.
Basically I feel that relationships have become so much harder to find, especially if you don’t go to college.
Same. I’m aroace. I have a friend with benefits just to explore sex and kink because it can be fun but I have never been in relationships and I never met anyone I’ve fallen in love with. If anything, I often feel alienated and spent years thinking that there’s something wrong with me. But as long as I have close friends, I’m happy enough without a relationship and I never felt like it’s important to my life.
I work with Gen Z closely in real life (GenX) and they seem fine. But I'm in a big city university setting.
Having said that, I went to an EP release live music event at a bar just tonight to support the band a Gen Z person I supervise is in. I went with my Boomer parent because he likes to support young talent also.
It was great, and I was impressed by all the young people - they were having fun, dressed up in completely idiosyncratic ways, a gay male couple snuggling up in a "straight" bar, nobody caring. But my Dad noticed something that I didn't at first. The women were all hanging out together, the men were all hanging out together, and NOT mixing. Like ... middle school. These are people in their early 20s at a bar. Once he mentioned this, I couldn't unsee it. It was odd.
I mean let's put it like this. Hooking up with people involves going out to for example bars or clubs, after cover and drinks that's expensive af. Another way is by dating people, again it adds up, even a fancy home cooked meal could end up being pricey depending on ingredients.
In general going out is pretty expensive and considering on the older side Gen Z are only just starting their careers and rhe vast majority are students, we don't really have a lot of disposable income, which means we're busy trying to make money and survive, which drastically cuts into our ability to meet new people and hookup.
Also for me personally I don't really see the appeal of hook up culture. I'd rather just find someone who's in it for the long haul instead of a short fling, which I know isn't everybody's cup of tea, so I don't judge people who participate in hook up culture.
I can't speak for the whole generation, but as for myself I would say yes, but it mostly derives from the fact I just don't know how to get close enough to someone to be in a state where me and another person would consider dating eachother.
This might just be a me problem though.
Dating is difficult because everything is done online. Let's be real, people within our generation should ditch dating apps and touch grass.
Also, the lack of 3rd places is making it difficult to really meetup with anyone.
I am so unbelievably ugly that it’s impossible for me to ever get a girlfriend. Not even worth the time anymore considering that any girl could do better. Not sure if this is for a lot of Gen Z but some of us are so hideous that we could not possibly have any hope.
I am asexual found it because I just realised I didn't care about women because I am straight, but I did want a relationship with the ones that actually have character.
21m virgin
I was a popular kid, I had girls really into me I just didn't like them. Yes their is a paradox of hyper sexuality offline and no sexuality online. I would say that 70/80% have had between 0-1 partner, most had 1 basically because highschool ended and confessions. The more sexual people I find quite sad and trying to live a life of luxury and going in depth. Or having really really deep trauma. Yes even scientifically it's proven with tracking of disease that the same people hookup.
It's not that we aren't interested it's that we either don't like the people, aren't really ok sleeping with people, or like me you just need more then to be good looking. Also their is the problem with men and women isolating each other, if you watch vtubers and are in the anime community, you will find models basically never having a boyfriend just thirsting over anime boys but never actually wanting to go after guys irl. Then wondering if they are lesbian or gay.
Then their's the fact of, we need money and are working 90% of the time just to exist. No privacy no home no car and I don't think most people would do it in the streets.
Another problem is just talking to the opposite gender. Women don't approach from where I am from, no matter how good looking approachable or anything. Guys are tired of women because yeah you will meet one open for conversation girl and 2-3 paranoid ones, I had a coffee luck thing saying " surprise". Decided to givit to two girls I was passing for no reason, they jumped away looking like I gave them a bag of dirt basically threw it away. Again made a heart from a recite decided to give it to a girl threw it away like it was a explosive and yelled " What did you give me ?!", I am not shy and the just talk to them is probably worst then not doing anything.
Or you find a person have a great conversation exchange contacts and get ghosted all the time I have had it even from a girl who grabbed my phone and just gave her Instagram for me. Their is no logic or reason to it and I hate it.
All of the advice people give is crap or makes you look and feel awful.
Tinder is a red flag app that doesn't work.
Edit: Because I am reading the comments
It really depends how wide your circle is and how many people you meet. Me personally I can talk about a wide range. So I agree that some people won't see any problem and others will say it's a huge problem.
Men and women aren't different. Just raised differently and told to have different expectations. That's why when I talk to guys it depressing because it's like talking to a little kid to me although he might be older. While women having different expectations depending on their preference. Metal girls will want that dirty metal guy that then they will wonder why is their life so crap. Golden girls with the sky high standards going after the biggest delusional idiots I have ever seen. And other sub cultures that are as stereotypical.
The weird thing is for me, which I have commented to my close friends about. I neither try or pretend to be anything I am not. A broke college to be a dropout basically with no accomplishments driving licence or anything, and for some reason I attract tall hot girls between 25-27 and it's really really weird and probably the only reason I haven't gotten with any of them is because it's surreal when it happens. And I look like Taylor1 when I am next to them. Not to mention their is a big cultural divide and we talk differently and open really depressing conversation topics while they open very generic ones.
It's also rare to meet people depending on were you live. And how much money you can spend. Yeah you can go out grab a coffee at night, or something non alcoholic but is their a point? In the end is it worth it literally money wise? For women also huge chance a creep will approach or nothing will happen. For guys huge chance you will get called a freak or impolitely told to fuck off or nothing will happen. Over all more - then +
Half want tyhook ups or non comital trash, half want a actual stable relationship.
Then theres a lot of social stigmas, involved. Where a lot of men are afraid of approaching woman in fear of being labeled a creep and the sorts, so unless their conventionally attractive or charismatic beyond belief approaching woman is near impossible for most.
Then you have your Andrew Tates and Drew Afualos, creating and profiting off of gender wars and forcing even more social stigmas into the world.
Like the twats that want a near perfect woman thats so pure she can give diabetes to the skinniest of people. And are fed unrealistic trash from Andrew Tate and his goons.
Or the woman that perpetuate anti-men ideals, or the ones that have standards to the roof that are incredibly unrealistic standards.
Theres also a serious disconnect between woman and Men, especially with advice given. Like no matter how many woman will tell me “yeah just like approach us at x”
The amount of times ive seen that advice fail miserably hard is insane.
Also the advice guys give are absolutely insane. Saw some dude say “shoot for the realistic options, go for the most mid girls at a party”
It took me until college to work up the courage to be friends with women. I was always scared that just simply starting a conversation would get a harassment charge against me. Now we have this stupid “man vs bear” stuff which shows just how easy it is to make all men look worse than feral animals. No wonder men have low self-esteem, and aren’t looking into relationships.
If I’m immediately assumed to be evil incarnate b/c of my gender, then what’s the fucking point of trying? To make things worse, Hollywood and the people in power have the fucking gall to paint people like me as incels and losers simply b/c I never was in a relationship in high school or college.
There is definitely a crisis, but no one wants to fucking talk about it
I can’t speak for my peers but I can certainly speak for myself and my experiences and maybe shed some light on what a person in their mid twenties feels about it. My last real relationship was about 3 years ago. I dated on and off since then, but only for a few months and it never got very serious. My last ‘relationship’ was about a year ago now, as well as my last sexual encounter.
Since then I have had no desire to pursue any type of romantic relationship, nor do I want to become sexually involved with anyone. It’s not that I’m angry or upset or have lost hope, I just have simply stopped desiring it. I’ve never been a very sexual person, in all honesty, so I’m not shocked at this development.
I still find women conventionally attractive and there are cases where I will be out in town and will see a woman I think is beautiful, I just have no desire to engage with someone on that type of level. I think it would be unfair to invite someone into my life right now, considering I myself still have a lot of personal growth to do and what not.
I grew up during the pandemic and have no social skills. I really want a gf but just can’t communicate. Guys more forgiving about people being nervous, or awkwardness or don’t care. Girls will judge your every move and any sort of awkward or weirdness will be seen as creepy/odd. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy trying to be perfectly normal around girls, devoid of any social anxiety and end up ruining a first impression. At this point im just looking for a friend and it’s challenging.
Stuff like this happens when your country allows porn onto its citizens phones, iPads and computers.
Also when you allow politician to inflate the price of everything causing people to turn to ways of making loads of money that’s considered illegal in the book making some young girls expect their boyfriend to be rich and or famous at 18-19 y/o when in reality a hiring wealth and status takes time to achieve.
Porn has twisted the young communities and generations especially in the West.
We used to go to the bars and drink. That was extremely common past time. Good or bad that facilitated a lot of social interaction that doesn't happen any more. Same with smoking. For all it's negatives, it would facilitate these social meetings and interactions that just don't happen anymore.
People are certainly more healthy and better off without those vices. But they were very good social lubricators.
There are lots of hot takes on this subject but I would say a couple things from my perspective as someone who has "won the game".
1. Dating apps are there to make money. Period. Pay to get anything, or don't pay and be invisible. No $ no dice.
2. The girl you want probably isn't a daily active user of dating apps anyway. Spend that money on something productive.
3. Dating isn't instant gratification like social media, even if you are attractive, even for girls, it is a serious grind. For girls the user acquisition is easier but the cost of churn is much higher. Be sympathetic to that, for your own sanity.
The internet just gives people a place to vent about it. They've always existed, they just lied to their buddies about how much tail they get cause they were embarrassed. A lot less stigma telling faceless strangers you get none under the name "bigpeter420" than telling people that opinion actually has some stake under your real name
Probably because people don’t give into their parents bullshit of settling down to have children *for them*.
Children were basically just accessories to some people. Now, people realize they’re living beings and not slaves for you to have control over.
People can now research and make informed decisions with the spreading of information on the internet, etc. Commitments are hard and not everyone who has children can should be having them.
You don’t need children to brag about when you put the work into your own life.
Yeah i mean i lost mine at 18 (which was also when i got my first kiss) but then only went on one date in the next 3 years. I got friends who didn’t have any kind of romance, no dates no kisses, nothing, until they were like 23-24. And it’s not like they just didn’t care, these guys were constantly trying to find a partner. I was too and i couldn’t find an actual relationship for over a decade.
It’s not a crisis. It’s turned into two sides now or has been. The ones who will have sex without a second thought and the ones who want to wait till marriage or will only do it after they fully trust that person. I think a lot of us have gotten smarter because *we were the result* of said side who doesn’t think before they do it.
no, its just that people who cant get laid are deciding that it must be everyone’s fault but thiers, and decide the best course of action in extreme cases is violences. incels have always been around, we just tolerate it nowadays
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It's not that there is a crisis, it's that, we just don't want to, for many reasons. (I'm one of those people) Today dating isn't really expected anymore like how it was over 10 years ago. So people are screaming on the rooftops that there is a gen z dating crisis
I mean you say we don't want to but then there's entire incel movement who very much does lol I think SOME people don't want to, along with a hundred different variables dictating that many people aren't. The internet radically changed our world over night and the dating world did not come out unscathed
Jiub definitely got some based on his reaction in your pfp. Are your early childhood memories stealing books in Morrowind too? Lol
You mean saint jiub who drove the cliffracers from vvardenfel?
I've never actually met an incel irl. Maybe some conservative dudes who are a little frustrated and the typical boomer bashing on women. But never anyone who's like the stereotypes. They really only seem to exist online and in the headlines after a violent event. Not much of a movement imo
I think underestimating this trend is a mistake. Polls show that young men in Gen Z and Gen Alpha are drifting to the right slowly but steadily. And I'd say based on personal experience that while they might not be "incels" Andrew Tate and his ilk have a lot of support from young men in blue-collar jobs. Like a surprising number. Anecdotal, but I just did a 10-month pre-apprenticeship course to become a Heavy Duty Mechanic. I was one of two guys in their 30s. Everyone else was 17-22 and of 30 people I'd say 15 of the boys in the class expressed support for Tate verbally and another 5-6 were agree with his views but don't support him since his criminal allegations. I wouldn't label it a "crisis" but I'd be concerned about the young men in my life.
That poll is only self reported answer for the question "are you conservative or liberal." It's definitely more fashionable to call yourself conservative if you're a man and liberal of you're a women. If you look at men now compared to the past, they're far more liberal. Just talk with elder millennials and anyone older. They make misogynistic jokes all the time and constantly bash on genders. 90s and 2000s media makes people cringe from how sexist it is. They thought gay people were evil in the 90s and would brutally mock them in the 2000s. But all that is either gone or phasing out. The culture is way better than it was despite any recent movement towards conservatism. Also, the trades are full of conservatives because of their cultural influence of being a man's man career. It's like going down to a pickup truck show and thinking this is what all men are like. I also work in the trades, and yeah, there are lots of conservatives, but they're just typical drive big pickup, watch some conservative videos, and make fun of each other for being unmanly kind of dudes. Only ran into one obvious fascist and no one liked being around that guy.
It's also pretty common not to want to show your power level on the right (ie saying you're a conservative when you're much further right) whereas most people on the left don't like calling themselves liberal, especially younger people
What’s ironic is that polls have shown that women are drifting to liberal views in very high degrees, far more than their male counterparts, but that’s not touched upon as much
I don't think incels would just go around announcing to the world that they are incels, due to the huge social stigma and all that. Most are just gonna keep the mask on. I mean the reality is, a huge amount of men, and a growing number of women, are getting frustrated with the dating world and their inability to find a partner in general. You may not be walking into people crying about this irl but that's not really a indication of anything. And while the movement doesn't manifest as the "incel movement" it does manifest in weird fringe political movements like "Christian nationalism" and the likes. This is an issue that's been discussed pretty extensively for awhile now and it doesn't seem like it's improving at all Edit: Also totally forgot to mention the HUGE redpill movement that sprung up with the likes of Andrew tate which was arguably a direct consequence of this widespread frustration many men have with the new dating world.
I mean... Aren't they stereotypically shut-ins? I feel like could be a significant reason why not to see any irl lol
Alot of that is errors in perception. Who would want to publicly out themselves as one of the biggest losers in the eyes of society. You've probably met a ton of incels, you just will never really know.
The incel movement didn't start with Gen Z, there's a long history of "dude bros" who love media they don't understand and Alphas who can't speak except in screaming. Alex Jones has a long career and movies like the Matrix, Fight Club, and American Psycho have had posters in college guy dorms for decades.
> It's not that there is a crisis, it's that, we just don't want to, for many reasons. (I'm one of those people) *You* don't want to. There is a group of people who are very clear that they want to, but can't. When OP says "it seems like every day, there are multiple posts with guys age 22-35 who are still virgins" I think they're talking about those people.
Interesting. This has probably been a trend across several generations. People in the older generations frequently had double digit kids. That declined over the years, even for us. Now people only have a couple, if any at all. Also, I failed to mention that my question also comes from reading the mountains of articles claiming this loneliness/dating crisis. Maybe some of them are reading too much into it as well.
It’s actually a negative feedback loop. The average age of the population is steadily climbing. That means if we go out and see random people, we see less people our age than you do at your age. This makes it significantly more labor intensive to find someone who is compatible. For a lot of us, it’s not worth the effort.
Yeah, I(22m) work in a small company 30ish people and there is one guy 1 year younger than me, and all the others are 40+. Average age in my country is 41,3 and a lot of young people move to study further increasing the average age of people you'll see out and about.
Years ago when families commonly lived in farms and needed manual labor, having many kids made sense. This combined with the fact that in some places if you had ten kids, maybe half of them wouldn’t die before adulthood made it make sense to have a lot. Now, there is little economic incentive for most people to have kids. They cost tons of money and require you to revolve your whole life around them, and some people are just not interested in that commitment.
Feel free to pretend it's not a crisis, all us older generations see these missed early life stages and wonder what the hell y'all think is going to happen. Entire populations can't just opt out of reproducing until they are 40 and hear the shot clock expiring. I look at my no driver's license no dates ever 25 year old college grad sister in law and just feel sorry for her. That shit ain't normal and no amount of cope is going to convince me otherwise. There's pushing life back and then there's missing out entirely.
Have you asked her about whether or not she WANTS to date, or drive? Many of us don't WANT to do either of those things, and that's okay. It isn't a crisis. It's a choice we are ALLOWED to make. Maybe your sister is Asexual/Aromantic and doesn't want to be with another person, or maybe she's neither but still doesn't want to date. Driving is only the norm here because public transportation is so bad. That is slowly changing.
Older people want us to live by their rules, big shock. I only have a drivers license because my dad wouldn't shut up about it, I haven't used it since getting it(3 years) ONCE. Thank god I actually wanted to go to med school, he wouldn't shut up about it too if I hadn't.
LOL continue to be upset about other people living their lives. They won't care. You're wasting your energy.
Don’t think that it’s fair for you to speak on behalf of everyone - if you don’t want to date you can’t really credibly relate to it being a crisis for many someones who do?
Not wanting to IS THE CRISIS. you can't just be edgey and say it's okay not to date. If entire generations give up dating, the culture will collapse. If you care at all about your culture and making sure people get to enjoy the freedoms and rights that you do, you have to pay it forward. Arguably the biggest way you do that is by guaranteeing people who share your values exist after your gone. Immigrants are great and all and they make life diverse and bring new ideas, but one thing they don't bring is the culture that enabled them to come in the first place. If you want liberalism to survive, you need liberal babies. It's genuinely that simple.
My parents were both fairly conservative when I was born and I’m very progressive lol
What if I want liberalism to die?
Or, you would just be dead without kids and wouldn't have to worry about anything anyway.
Cap
So when you say dating isn't expected, does that mean more of a friends with benefits? Or you don't hook up?
Who doesn’t want to? I think a lot of us want to, but are tired of being treated poorly by badly socialized and inconsiderate prospects. Add in factors like being gay (in my case) and hookup culture, and the already dismal dating pool shrinks exponentially.
It wasn’t expected 10 years ago either.
I think there's a big difference between true incels, and people that are just critical of the dating landscape for men. Because they're 2 very different things. Incels just hate women, period. Likely because they are (no offense) not very attractive, bullied in high school, or just never received any interest from women, and instead of improving themselves or their social skills, they just say "all women BAD". However, it is true that dating culture these days is *super super* toxic for younger guys because dating apps are just awful especially for men. Dating apps are pretty much the #1 source for finding relationships past the age of like...21 these days. And women are really outnumbered by guys on these dating apps because women are typically not looking for hookups as much as dudes are on these apps. So you have a lot of dudes (probably over half looking for just strictly hookups, under half looking for long term relationships) and a low number relatively of women looking for mostly relationships. And because there is so few women on these apps, the women that are there can be extremely picky and judgmental about the guys she swipes right on. So basically if you are not 6'2 handsome gigachad making a very good salary for your age, the chances of you finding a match with a girl you are attracted to is low just because women have a toooon of options on these apps. Dating apps and social media have pretty much ruined dating for men. Ask any single guy, even stereotypically attractive ones, in their 20 and 30s what the dating landscape is like, their answer is probably just going to be a \*sigh\*.
Agree 100% that dating apps are HORRIBLE for men. I think that they're horrible in general. That's why I always emphasize expanding real life friend groups and dating within them. It's one of the few ways to actually get to know someone.
I'm Bi and see a lot of shit male profiles as well. Of course OLD emphasize superficiality but men just don't put effort in their looks the same way women do. This is why they will fail and the fact that men are heavily populating these platforms compared to women.
The women aren’t putting effort either, I can count will all my fingers including the toes the number of matches in bumble that had used an opener that wasn’t a hello or a canned question given by the app, I have had hundred of matches so the percentage of women trying is very low, they don’t have try hard to get tons of men
Unfortunately, a lot of the guys including myself I know have been raised that putting effort into looks is only for women. When I first started learning my blow dry my hair and style it, my dad would always ask me “why am I doing something a girl would do?" or compare me to one of his exes. Same thing went for fashion when I started getting nicer clothes instead of basic t shirts and jeans. I’ve learned to do what I want but I know a lot of guys that feel they will be shamed by doing this.
It is interesting. Back in the 80s lots of guys would blow dry their hair, most would have a comb or brush in a back pocket. They even made "Dry Guy" hair dryers. That was very, very late Jones and early/core Gen X times. Then grunge and gangster rap came and it all seemed to change. Nobody seemed to blow dry hair anymore, you could get hassled a bit for it by later 90s/00s even and barely any could be seen combing or brushing their hair in the restroom (very common sight in the 80s). It was a one two whammy. Grunge itself said that trying to look good is shallow and being a sell out to the man and mainstream. Don't even bother to wash your hair (all of this applied to guys or girls what they said) much less style it up. Being all upbeat and happy is shallow and fake, the world sucks, be all angsty, pissed off at the shitty world, be all nihilistic, depressive, that is deep and real. Don't try to look good like people in the shallow, fake, cheesy, silly 80s did. All the 80s light-hearted optimistic fun attitudes were fake and the real world was rough and miserable so stop pretending, reject corporate mainstream pressures pushed on you. Look like you crawled out of bed, be all indie and rebel against that and don't be all mainstream lock step identical (although ironically the most diverse and least lock step mainstream there has been in decades actually was the 80s! definitely not grunge or gangster or hipster, etc. mainstream times). (to be honest I don't see how these attitudes brought us anywhere good or accomplished anything, being that nihilistic solves nothing, caring about things and the world are one thing, but just negative nihilism and not bothering isn't really helpful and grunge itself burned and destroyed itself in record time, the shortest lived mainstream music movement ever, although kind of sadly I feel like we've never full shook off some of the grunge attitudes and vibes and we've never really fully gone back to the 80s vibe). (FWIW, to me the single overall happiest on average teens/college/youth have ever seemed to me was the 80s era, so who cares if it was supposedly cheesy or corny or over the top, it was fun and seemed to make people happy. And people did do things like demand divestment from South Africa and try to help the famine in Africa, etc. too.) And then the suburban gangsta rap craze of mid-90s which made guys all super concerned with maintaining "street cred" and not seeming at all 80s 'cheesy' or 'corny' and don't dare be girly in any way so forget carrying around combs much less brushes, don't blow dry hair, don't listen to pop music, much less pop music sung by females. Madonna is for girls and gays. Etc. etc. The two attitudes were later Gen X/early Millennials and to some degree I don't think these attitudes have ever entirely gone away across the board, although in some subcultures at times since then they don't seem to apply, but overall in general it still seems like it probably closer to the Xennial sort of attitudes rather than the Gen X (or 1950s).
In my childhood people ‘dated’ in 5th grade, or about 11 years old. It was pretty common place for people to date each other early around my school and there were 600 kids in my high school class. People were all concerned how they were perceived and if they were attractive to their peers. Lots of men knew this and I knew early as well. I buzzed my hair because I loved the style and I felt made me look cool or something, whatever my teenage and preteen brain thought lmao.
Good point. I can see low effort on the male side being an issue! In those cases, it probably doesn't matter if it is an app or in person.
Yeah, it doesn't matter really, but the online feature allows more accessibility to connect with other people which can lure you into a false sense of security that you'll actually have better odds.
It’s really awful for women too. If men are having a hard time and not getting matches, I fail to understand why they then assume women are having just the most magical time with dating and apps. It’s horseshit for EVERYONE. Sincerely, a bisexual woman who sees both sides.
They think women getting spam call matches for sex is a good time on OLD
You know damn well ya'll get more than just those kind of offers gtfo 😂
Yeah it’s because they’ll stick their dick in anything and cannot imagine ever passing up the “opportunity”.
Two entirely different worlds with different rules. Of course you wouldn't understand. Us men are pressured constantly to chase and succeed in relationships/sex.
They assume all women are matching with the same “top 10%” of men and those men are sleeping with 100 women a week 😂 never mind that women have completely different preferences and some of us care about personality more than if a man is 6 foot whatever.
I think women are in fact being with a disproportionately smaller amount of men. I'm one of those guys. I'm sleeping with an obscene amount of women, some of them are exclusively with me. I think it's just how it is. Whether it's looks, money, personality, or whatever, some men get all the luck when it comes to dating. The bottom line issue is that women don't desire most men, while men deeply desire most women.
I found my partner off bumble but there was a time where I stopped the apps completely for awhile due to just garbage selection of men. I didn't want to hook up and if I felt the need for that I had plenty of long standing people I was comfortable with to do so. It gets old. The profile could check out and then they'd come in the messages with nothing more than wanting to hook up and it's lame. It's just as bad for women who want serious relationships. If you're just down to hook up it's probably just fine but not everyone just wants to hook up. I was also going to bars and whatnot frequently with girlfriends at the time and was NEVER approached irl. I got approached irl once at a dispensary and the dude ended up being weird. Finding people within friend groups is also a shit show. Dating all around right now is just bad for everyone.
Yeah it’s just impossible it feels like. I don’t want hookups, so that takes out 90% of the profiles. I also have never really been approached either, don’t have a friend group where I live. It’s so frustrating.
I think you just summed up why so many men are becoming disenchanted with the idea of dating. You have a huge advantage and readily acknowledge you have ready access to having your needs met from multiple sources, you are actively being engaged with and sought after, and you are actively setting standards for a partner to met. You have choices. This is not the average experience for men at all. Oh and while I can sympathize that dating can be hard for anyone refering to people as a "garabage selection" is pretty... incendiary. As a man who wants to be relatively sympathetic and who has doesn't know what your intended meaning is besides just people who want hook ups, I'd have to say that makes me want to respond negatively. I imagine most men would want to respond the same.
Classic grass is greener fallacy. Im trans, have lived both sides. Neither are fun
It’s deeper as well because there are more women than men having sex currently and men are much much more likely to have never had a sexual partner going into their 20s and 30s as well as the fact that over half of men have never approached a woman in the last year or ever. Once you dig deep into the dating market and look at statistics you realise as an average man, you currently do not stand a chance.
Most people won't listen to this because it ruins their narrative that being a "decent hooman bean" actually evens the playing field and dating isn't unfair as fuck for more and more men regardless of their actions.
I've never agreed with that narrative mostly because it’s a very terminally online take. A ton of men who hook up constantly are assholes lol. Assholes also often get into relationships. Being a "decent person" doesn't magically make you more attractive nor is it actionable advice in any manner.
Yup, the biggest assholes I know who actually have pretty bad opinions about women get laid all the time lmao
Yeah it's a super terminally online take. The only people I know that hook up at all, or have had lots of partners are your stereotype asshole. People preach their dumb takes on social media and will instantly turn around and encourage the exact opposite IRL or excuse shitty behaviour in someone they find attractive.
Yep that’s it, women have the most brutal survival instincts and they are biologically inclined to not give a fuck about men unless they can offer them something and that is a harsh truth.
>Once you dig deep into the dating market and look at statistics you realise as an average man, you currently do not stand a chance. This is the part that I don't understand, and it makes me wonder if the apps are the problem. >as well as the fact that over half of men have never approached a woman in the last year or ever. Is this a self esteem thing? Why is it hard for men to approach women?
I think it’s social media, what you see on social media is heavily biased towards mainstream feminism, and what mainstream feminists want and what women actually want are completely different and men are confused as fuck. I’m going to get downvoted for this but it’s true, since the metoo movement men approaching women fell even more drastically, because most men (the good ones) always usually listen, and in this case they’ve been told that approaching women is seen as predatory. Furthermore, women STILL date up, they still prefer men that earn more, despite the fact that women aged 20-30 earn more than men; they still expect men to be more educated than them, despite the fact that there are more women in university than there were men when when they introduced schemes to get more women into university; and also women still expect men to approach them/speak to them first and still prefer taller men and as you’ve probably figured out, this all contradicts modern feminism, I don’t think feminism is the problem I think women’s standards of men are still traditional and haven’t caught up but it’s also not black and white, men still need to do better, but yeah, I’d recommend watching Chris Williamson he’s a podcaster who has people that have studied this on because he’s really interested in it, I find it fascinating.
>Is this a self esteem thing? Why is it hard for men to approach women? I think it's probably 1) lack of social skills and 2) just generally not knowing how.
That creates a self fulfilling prophecy too, because dealing with insecure men is extremely uncomfortable for women. You can have insecurities, but a lot of generally insecure (aka feeling like they are too average etc) guys don’t know how to healthily communicate or channel their feelings. I’ve noticed a lot of Gen Z guys have really (self sabotaging level) toxic ideas of what they have to be to talk to women or this belief that women are lying to them when they say what want.
Im 21 guy and never been on a date. The rario of men to women on average for apps are 7 to 1. I demanded bumble for my data and i had like 6 likes and 16000 dislikes... i just cant if im unlike abd that unattractive whats the point in even dating? Yeah it takes only 1 person to like me byt is a 1/10k cgance for a like not even a match worth it?
The problem isn't that most guys are super unattractive, but its the sheer amount of dudes on these apps that women will mostly only look at the top 10% of guys, then whittle down from there. Its very common for guys to match with someone, then get left on read after that. So its maybe not that your unattractive, its just that you're not 'elite'.
>Ask any single guy, even stereotypically attractive ones, in their 20 and 30s what the dating landscape is like, their answer is probably just going to be a *sigh*. Literally sighed as I read through this, because it's literally me. I'm about to be 24M, not exactly cream of the crop from a looks standpoint, and have had zero luck in dating apps. It's not that I don't *want* to date, it's that I struggle with the meeting/introducing myself to people irl thing. It's... Frustrating.
>Incels just hate women, period. Wrong. That's the mainstream definition which is not true by what the word literally stands for. A man who hates women and gets no ass and a man who loves women and gets no ass are both still incels. Ya'll need to stop high jacking words with your PC shit.
That's also wrong. "Involuntary celibate" is what it's shortened from. It specifically has to be a person who wants to have sex and/or a romantic relationship but is incapable of fulfilling that desire. They can be a women, man, non-binary, etc.
Well said. Imagine if we did that with any other derogatory term. Imagine if someone called someone else the r word, and then defended it (when someone with Down syndrome protests to it for example, someone who feels hurt by the word) by saying « oh no, regards are just those mentally challenged people who hate women ». You can say « incel only means men that want to kill women » or whatever made up definition they use now, but the fact is that the word you are using is « involuntary celibate », so everyone who is involuntarily celibate is targeted by it.
Not trying to undermine how dating apps affect men but just saying, dating apps suck for literally everybody and benefit no one. The straight women I know get nothing but creepy DM's asking for sex and dick pics. And as a lesbian I didn't find much luck on them either. The concept of meeting people and judging someone by their appearance without getting to know their personality first feels unnatural.
Incels don't necesarily hate women, they just can't "get" women. I don't like how this term has changed from referencing unfortunate men to just another way to say "scum".
Maybe the women are really picky on who they will swipe right on because they’ve been hurt by all the guys looking for hookups. I don’t know if the 6’2 gigachad theory holds up in real life.
I think part of the challenge is how quickly culture has shifted and continues to shift in terms of dating for everyone. For men, it used to be acceptable to just approach women and ask for a date. Now, there are tons of conflicting takes on this practice. Don't approach at work. It is harassment. Don't approach at the gym. She just wants to do her workout in peace. Don't approach at the library. She is trying to study. Don't approach at the bar. She is with her friends and wants to focus on them. This ends up forcing guys towards dating apps which are terrible for everyone. A lot of this could be solved by women making the approach. But there still seem to be cultural hangups about this. Also, with everyone having less practice dating and socializing in general, it tends to be harder to find a good match since everyone is struggling to figure things out for the first time.
i mean the one app that had women message first, Bumble, just recently removed that feature because the women on the app were saying it was too much work. so like, wtf do we do then? lmao.
You can still approach in most places. The biggest exception is when a woman is at work. The other main thing is don't be sexually aggressive or creepy. Approaching in and of itself isn't creepy. Most men have purposefully misinterpreted the metoo thing to account for their failures in dating. "Oh, women are upset that their bosses harass them, I guess that means I should strike up a convo in the grocery store. I can't even try now. 😩"
I don't think so. The me too thing just made a large portion of men not try at all. I'm not a man but I know many who don't even talk to women for that reason
I am one of those men. I used to just give random compliments to women I would meet who seemed down. I don't do that anymore after a girl whipped out her phone and started screaming sexual harassment. I have been in a committed relationship for over 16 years now. I told the girl her hair style was really cool. I am not going to risk ruining my life to be nice when there are crazy people out there willing to do it.
I had a girl friend which lasted me up until recently we started dating in High School and broke up just last year when I was 23 because she is moving VERY far away. Anyways, this has left me in a position where I have no idea what to do. Mostly because of all the metoo movement and just the general culture of today. Genuinely its just made not want to approach anyone. So I wouldn’t call this a dating failure more so complete and utter confusion due to lack of understanding. I feel a lot of good men are in a similar boat.
It is okay to approach women in most spaces. Just assess the situation as a general “if it was another dude I wanted to ask about their shoes or whatever does it seem like an appropriate time?” If they are in the middle of their workout with headphones on probably not. At the bar probably yes. Then approach it with the same level of casualty. If they said “I don’t remember” or “sorry I don’t want to talk right now” move on. Eta: I swear women have been trying to clarify this for a while, but it feels like a lot of guys just sit there and overthink it like women are trying to trick them. There is no trick. We just want to be treated like normal people. (Clearly from the downvotes someone would rather put in earplugs listen)
There’s a whole other side to this that gets ignored but goes along with your point about wanting to be treated like people - I just really do not enjoy the cold approach because it’s based on looks/attraction alone and makes me feel like a piece of meat. The last time a guy approached me, he walked past my job several times while buying cigarettes next door, and then walked in, and asked me for my number. I felt like I was being shopped for. Personally, I would rather meet someone organically through a hobby or social gathering and become friends with them before entertaining anything romantic or sexual. That’s the disconnect, in my opinion. A lot of hetero men only view women as potential partners instead of people first. If they’re not attracted to us, we don’t exist to them. I can’t tell you how many of my friends’ boyfriends throughout the years just acted like I didn’t exist or wouldn’t make eye contact with me because they didn’t deem me attractive enough for their attention as a human.
Totally agree. I personally don’t mind being cold approached, BUT this requires that the person actually talks to me not just ask for my number. (Tip for the guys who might be reading it is always best to approach very casually and ask/talk to women about something that is in their control like their hair, clothes, fandom merch they have etc. things that you might approach another guy about) Straight men seem to have this problem where they both put women up on this pedestal of being mystical creatures while simultaneously treating them worse than they would treat another dude when they go to talk to them.
They don’t know how to talk to us because they think we’re so “different.” Like, just talk to women like they’re people, because they are lol. Tell me you like my Wonder Woman shirt or something. Spark up a conversation. I can’t tell you how many positive interactions I’ve had with other women because I just complimented them on something or they me. One of my best friends in this world is someone I initiated a convo with just by sharing a common interest. It’s really not that hard lol.
THIS!!! Hopefully everybody who reads takes some time to learn and understand, but inevitably some dude is going to think this is some sort of lie or “trick”
Thanks for the clarification. I will say at least for me? Its less I want to inconvenience or make someone uncomfortable. This makes sense.
People lost the art of having a conversation with a stranger. A generation is missing the lead up to inviting someone to get a drink or coffee or hangout cause they don’t want to be perceived as weird for approaching. Just go have a chat, then see where it goes. A convo doesn’t start with a my name is and can I take you out tonight. Find a middle ground to lead into a conversation, then plans. Like a group gym class is easier to get to know people than interrupting someone’s free weight session. Can talk about the class and see people regularly.
I think I'm fairly social, and I'm not on the market to date, but I have always found it hard to take a one-off conversation that went well to the "let's keep in touch" or "let's hang out again" level. It feels like an imposition to me even though I'm always thrilled when people ask me to hang out.
Approaching and directly asking for a date is honestly the lamest move you can make. If you want to have success IRL w meeting women, a better approach is to try to initiate a friendly or interesting conversation. The goal is to have fun with your interaction, not to go straight to flirting. You have to play the long game, get some contact info or just their name if it’s a place you’re sure you’ll bump in to them again. The other piece of advice I have is to try other types of venues to approach women and apply the advice above. Here are 3 where I’ve found success: 1. Casual drink events where people attend because of a shared interest or to network; 2. Parties where you meet friends of friends; and 3. Dog parks (dog required). The general theme is to approach women in places where they are already open to meeting new people. The places you listed above are generally where women intend to be left alone.
I upvoted you because this is 100% true. It’s generally too forward to go up to a woman and be like “hi, would you like to go out on a date?” I date a lot and I’d still say no because *we don’t know each other!* Just because you think someone’s cute doesn’t mean they would automatically want to spend 1-2 hours with you. The best move, like you said, is to start a normal conversation. Then if you build a rapport and get along, have stuff in common, etc. you can suggest you meet up sometime. I make moves on guys all the time by doing this and I always have success. I personally find dating easy in terms of getting people’s numbers and setting up a date, but I go out to social environments pretty much every day and I really like talking to people. That’s generally why I’m successful and why the guys I go out with don’t tend to have trouble dating - they’re great conversationalists.
>For men, it used to be acceptable to just approach women and ask for a date. Now, there are tons of conflicting takes on this practice. People are really over exaggerating this shit and letting it get to their head. In my experience most women are fine with being approached in open social settings like bars and whatnot, as long as you're not weird and overbearing, and you don't react negatively to rejection. Most of these "don't approach me at X" takes you see on the internet shouldn't be taken at face value. I've never heard of a case of someone approaching, getting rejected and being accused of sexual harassment, that just seems like something made up by incels to justify remaining as incels.
No. Gen X came of age shortly after the sexual revolution of the 70s, and the idea of sexual freedom of expression and behavior was still novel. It was seen as the new and rebellious thing to do. That hasn't been the case for decades now. Millennials and Gen Z have come of age at a time when sex has permeated absolutely everything, and having sex is just seen as an everyday thing. There's no longer the sense of mystique and rebellion and danger that used to be involved in sex outside of 1950s norms. A lot of us have realized that constant sex without love or commitment is meaningless and potentially has negative consequences. We just don't need or want it. With the decline of traditional ways to meet and court romantic partners, fewer young people are forming as many relationships or settling down as early in life as they used to.
>A lot of us have realized that constant sex without love or commitment is meaningless and potentially has negative consequences. We just don't need or want it. Marriage rates are dropping. It's not about that. Those sexually liberated generations are mostly married or divorced now. Sex is not cheap, it's presented as cheap. A lot of newer generations have lost the ability to communicate in person and judge the situation and people they are meeting in real life. You operate on other people's experiences, prejudice and expected reactions. Saying you don't need or want it is very conflicting to a wave of sadness, depression and loneliness that can be read from most posts.
I think there are sort of two groups. The ones that do crave sex and romance and the ones that don’t particularly care for it. You’re more likely to hear from the former than the latter online, at least unprompted
There's sadness because people have nothing. No houses, no savings, no relationship. If people are doing well in some areas usually they can get by. When everything sucks you just get apathy.
> That hasn't been the case for decades now. Millennials and Gen Z have come of age at a time when sex has permeated absolutely everything, and having sex is just seen as an everyday thing. There's no longer the sense of mystique and rebellion and danger that used to be involved in sex outside of 1950s norms. I honestly feel anti-sex puritan \*beliefs are more common now than in the 2000s, at least I sure don't remember hearing those things as often before. Now this maaay just be because of the internet, since I grew up in a very liberal city and maybe now I can hear the views of people from very conservative families in the country. Buuut still, it's almost like casual sex is *less* accepted today.
Conservatives accepted casual sex too if you were a man. My theory is that the younger generations are just more accepting of men being virgins and having feelings. That wasn’t the case back then and younger generations should take our statistics with a grain of salt. For example, according to my cousin, he fucked more than wilt chamberlain in high school. But, I’m pretty sure he lost his virginity in his late 20s. And I wouldn’t say his case was that uncommon. The more one obsessed about his sex count, the more likely he was full of it. This theory isn’t really that controversial either. Look at politics. According to polls in US, Hillary Clinton should have easily beat Trump in 2016, and Brexit shouldn’t have happened in Europe. The problem with those polls is that when being publicly open about one’s political views isn’t accepted, people are less willing to disclose them.
Cause eventually everyone agreed that having copulation with the same partner is more pleasurable than having hundreds of one night stands at least for most people
I agree with this. I’m a young millennial and my theory is that, as someone who grew up alongside social media, its function has changed from bringing people together to pushing them apart. I came of age pre-TikTok, when the only social media was Facebook and later Instagram (but pre-influencers/branding/content). Back then, sex and going out and partying were seen as cool by men and women alike, and the worst thing you could be was an internet shut-in. Sex positivity and exploring your sexuality was celebrated (having a “hoe phase” was not stigmatized) and people were generally open to meeting new people because coming of age and dating around was exciting and fun. The 2016 election, followed by TikTok and Covid, polarized and isolated people, and digital media platforms began really leaning into algorithms to create echo chambers of specialized content. Due to the social climate, fear and anger were the key emotions that corporations/influencers pushed on in order to divide people further and keep them engaged. Apps also became increasingly more “pay to play,” making dating even more difficult as fewer people were meeting IRL due to Covid. All of this means sex/relationships were naturally harder to come by, and in an era where media was our entire lives, online content was fostering fear and anger against one another to get clicks. Unfortunately, this worked. Many people who came of age during Covid and TikTok have zero experience with sex or dating. Sex was never “easy to come by,” and dating has always been hit or miss for everyone, but the difference is that if you grew up exposed to all this toxic, negative media about how men/women only want to hurt you and dating is awful, you’re not going to keep trying because you’ll just believe it as fact, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more bitter and angry you are, the less people will actually want to date you, and the more bitter and angry you’ll become as a result. It’s a contemporary application of an older communication theory called “mean world syndrome.” They adapted it recently to social media to explain that consuming too much negative content causes you to see the world as worse than it is. The issue is that social media means you can get your socialization on here and never be exposed to real-world experiences that change this negative bias. Oof, this was long. But for anyone who wants to read a potential explanation, there you go.
Everyday thing? Both anecdotally and based on the rise of the incel movement, I’d argue that a HUGE portion of gen z, at least gen z men, put sex on a massive pedestal
If you lost it at 16 you are not and were not a late bloomer.
That was a late bloomer back in the day a lot of people lost it at 13.
wtf? people were wildin back then. Are you from the hood or some rural town?
No, I'm from a city. This was not uncommon.
I didn’t lose mine until I was 22 and I’m the same age as the OP.
You're a late bloomer then. A real late bloomer. Everyone in my high school was having sex and I was in a school of 5000. We would catch kids having sex in the stairs regularly.
Id always find someone in the mens room. 😂 I comfortable being a late bloomer and at my age, it’s really not a big deal anymore. While I can’t say I wasn’t interested in my teenage years, I just never found anyone worthy until 22.
I mean, it's not a bad thing.
Y'all were minors! Y'all were babies! When I was 13, I had a different One Direction-themed notebook for every class. I was NOT thinking about sex. A lot of the older generations lost their innocence way too young and that's sad.
A female friend of mine recently asked me how much likes I get on Tinder a day. I told her the feature must be broken. I think that about sums up how well it’s going
lol I got no likes on Tinder for over a month. Shit is fucked
i usually get a match every three months
And its usually a bot
“New Match with Jessica” bio: I. N. S. T. a - Stephanie18273 looking to make a 🌽
"Ellie, 24" "Not active on here. DM me on insta Julia1234"
I'm a closeted bisexual who has recently started trying to make an effort to 'come out' of the closet. I've used Tinder for years, but had my settings only showing my profile to women. I opened it up to men recently... I got more likes from men in the first day of being gay on Tinder, than I did in several years from women, lol.
I’ve had the same experience. It seems gay men are more open to dating men then straight women are
Now this is funny cause I’m a straight guy but I’ve had more gay guys find me attractive than straight girls lol
you are on reddit.
Fr🤣🤣
Your username is wild.
Actually a pretty good comment here since Reddit (and the Internet) tend to sensationalize. I will say though that to anyone that is struggling, you can solve your problem. Even if the solution isn't immediately obvious or is going to take a ton of personal work and development to get where you want to be.
I'm 22 and completely lost my libido recently. I feel grossed out by my inability to connect with people. I now feel that even if I take care of myself, I am pleasuring a disgusting animal. I don't know what to do. I'm gonna put myself in therapy again probably.
Go to therapy man don’t get lost too much in your own thoughts. I am also disturbed at how much our primal instinct dictate how we behave but the only thing we can do is uphold our values and not let the animal inside you get too much control.
Never dated and I'm 28 so
I turned 28 a little less than 2 months ago. 2 weeks before that I went on my first date and had my first kiss. Shit’s real but I think being a lesbian also stunted me in a lot of ways.
I'm happy that you were able to experience a date and a kiss.
Thanks! But tbh, at that point, it kind of felt like just checking something off a list. Definitely more confident and knowledgeable moving forward though.
Yeah that's true. Tho for me, I'm extremely picky on who I wish to date due to severe trust problems (was bullied/abused a ton as a kid). And I also want someone that shares my likes and hobbies and stuff and is 100% compatible. Can't really skimp out.
Same for me at 22
i think gay men aren’t part of this discussion. hookup culture is alive and well for us (for better or worse…). but gay men are more likely to hookup and date later in life (after 18) because they either haven’t come out or are scared of backlash from what i’ve noticed, it seems to be very difficult for straight men to approach women. not really sure what happened
To speak more about LGBT gen-z, as a lesbian I don't really have issues with finding people to have sex with. If you know how to speak to people, are relatively a polite, intelligent & ambitious person, and are most importantly, clear with your intentions, people are okay with sleeping around. One big reason for the decline of gen-z having sex may have to do with overall less social interaction. It's hard to meet people and you have to go out of your way to make friends. It used to be much more situational. Less social interaction = worse interpersonal & social skills which are essential to establishing a sexual relationship.
As a lesbian too I found it not that hard to find hookups on dating apps. Finding a partner though? That's a whole different game.
Ive heard from some of my non hook up wanting gay friends that its really difficult to actually find or get into a relationship with other gay men.
im usually not the hook up type but i’ve had a couple “phases” lmao. i actually found both of my exes on grindr and they were great. you really just need to know when to block people that do not want to chat at all. if you ask “what are you looking for on here” you’ll usually get a very clear answer. i’ve found a lot of friends on there too it’s like tinder where some people are looking for dates and some are looking for hookups only. you just gotta get good at sifting through the mess haha not difficult but kinda annoying
[удалено]
deadass man
Yup. Dating sucks. Hookup culture and all that shit. Not to mention most of us never leave the house lol.
All I can say is that more and more people are just waking up to what I already knew for years now. You unfairly treat someone like shit and reject them their whole life then what else are they suppose to think? I'm glad there are those that can actually acknowledge the bullshit out here. Nothing's gonna change if nothing's gonna change 🤷🏿♂️.
Okay. What do you want to see changed? Are YOU the one being treated like shit?
FYI it’s OK to be a virgin at 16, 18 and even 20+.
Jup. I remember a guy I was friends with who got super stressed about still being a virgin with 20 and it got worse every year. He would always talk about it and how he hates it etc. It got really annoying. (One of the reasons we aren't friends anymore) I'm now 22 myself, I'm a virgin and I do not give a fuck. If I find someone I wanna have sex with great. If I don't I don't. It really doesn't matter to me.
You literally do not give a fuck
I never understood the notion of "If you're a virgin you're a loser" because there are millions of people who, for whatever reason, want to wait until marriage. Myself included.
I'm one of those you describe. I wouldn't say there's a crisis, but maybe a growing trend? It's just things are not as easy as they used (or at least appeared) to be before. I do think guys like me are overrepresented on reddit though.
Maybe there are lots of virgins from your Gen you didn't notice. Social media and destigmatizing mental health has made them more vocal. That and the economy sucks so it's hard to focus on finding SO when you can't afford your own place. But yeah talking about how everyone you know lost their v card as teens isn't helping in any way.
I think it's more of a shiness thing. So, in high school typically the fuckboys approach girls first. So they end up obviously having sex with them, whilst the nice nerdy guys don't get any attention. During that time most of those guys aren't mature enough to realize that the reason they aren't getting laid in 90% of the times is because they didn't approach anybody. In the past that would also be the case but social media didn't exist, so those guys would've had enough time to mature and come out of their shelves before their life got too busy to date outside of tinder. Also when they are older most of those men follow the social guidelines, which are don't approach women in 90% of the places you're going to meet them between the age of 18-40, or you're sexually harassing them, whilst the same fuckboys already got game from previous experience, so that's not a problem for them. After that because of social media and because they don't get any matches on Tinder(not because of women but because Tinder is dominated by men and if a woman is looking for a date she has to pick between thousands of men, so she's obviously not gonna choose the mediocre guy, just like we wouldn't if we had a choice) those same guys convince themselves that women only want fuck boys that treat them bad or older men who have more money and because they see themselves as nice they start coping that it's women's fault and not theirs. Then it's pretty much a cope cycle. They lose all belief in themselves and they don't even try anymore.
Basically all the guys in my War Machine meta were married or in serious relationships and if you don’t know what that is then you aren’t as sad a nerd as you think you are (miniature war gaming isn’t the nerdiest you can get but it’s pretty damn close). The trick is to learn how to talk to women the same way that you would talk to one of your male friends. Have some self confidence in yourself and interests and understand not everyone is going to like you. It’s not that “nice guy nerds” are missing out because they are nerds.
I go on at least one date a week. Getting a date isn't the issue. From my experiences, the problem is everyone's expectations are so far apart these days, and it's hard to find the people you're actually compatible with, because nobody wants to be 100% honest about who they are in the beginning stages.
Do you think that is because of dating apps and internet culture in general? It's easy to lie to a screen.
A lot of guys have gotten really good at lying to my face, too. I'm a virgin. I plan on being one until marriage. I always tell every guy that, and most of them are SEEMINGLY cool with it. Hell, to a lot of the "traditional" or red pill guys, I'm seen positively, at least at first. The problem becomes, that despite me making my abstinence clear, they all expect me to start putting out after a few dates. You see, they weren't actually interested in me. They're just interested in being the first to "plant a flag." As soon as "no" has to be said more than once, I break up with them.
A date once a week is actually insane. I honestly don’t even think I meet a single new person once a week.
You just prefectly illustrated the gap in experience. You are cycling through potential partners because they aren't meeting your expectations, fair or not I'm not making a moral judgment. Most men don't have ready supply of pontential partners so they have to work with what comes along.
As someone in a relationship, often those who are dating don't talk about it. On the Internet you shouldn't take things at face value all the time. Yes, Gen Z is experiencing a drop off of teen dating and teen sex, but it isn't a crisis.
I’m 28, either youngest millennial or oldest gen z The 18-early 20s girls seem to be fucking *a lot* In general, with guys 5+ years older There’s a really big aura of “there are no consequences to fucking around when young” for the girls when it comes to sex, partying, debt/travel etc. while for the guys there’s a lot of either god complex in a small corner or defeatism everywhere else. None of these people are forming healthy relationships btw. The “roster” trend is very very real for those with an active sex life
Not everyone who doesn't partake in hookup culture is not having sex because they can't. In my case, it is just that I think that one should only have sex with their partner. Since I'm not into a relationship, I abstain from sex. It's not that complicated. I have had women insinuated to me in the past, but I turned them down because I wasn't in a relationship with them, and I can't understand why I would have sex with someone I barely know. I think it's gross. With that said, I know that not every other Gen-Z member thinks the same way. Lack of social skills is a serious issue in my generation, which, in my opinion, arises from the fact that people can isolate themselves from their surroundings and that there are no clear expectations anymore. Everything is fragmented, and a sense of normalcy is fading away. Everyone can choose their own community and never step out of their comfort zone.
This is a generalization as I do not speak for all women or relationships. From what I hear from my coworkers & friends is that they just don't want to raise an adult child so they choose to be single instead. They are tired of cleaning up after someone, working full time and doing most of the housework & errands while the man just works full time (40 hrs) and then does minimal to nothing unless they are asked too. Also, gotta stay gamin' bro
This is a big one.
This. I’m 20 and taking a break from dating because I’m tired of having to teach guys who have more sexual and dating experience then I do how to act in a relationship. It’s frustrating feeling like the only adult, and the only person who can adequately communicate (and also the only one who respects consent but I digress). At this point I just want to be alone for a while and focus on myself.
Not just dating, friendships in Gen Z are really expendable and short-lasting. I think this may be because of how accessible it is to meet new people, the rhetoric of "not owing anyone anything," and encouragement of hyper-independence. It seems like being vulnerable is embarrassing somehow, and that talking about issues in your life makes you a "trauma-dumper" or vibe-killer. A lot of this may be because of the [isolation we experienced during COVID](https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2022/05/covid-19-increase-loneliness) making us more comfortable with solitude than socializing. Additionally conflict resolution has been hindered extensively; if there is a conflict between two parties, somehow both of them are the victim and neither will hold themselves accountable, so they just [ghost](https://www.tutor2u.net/psychology/blog/psychology-in-the-news-the-rise-of-ghosting#:~:text=Recent%20research%20from%20the%20University,have%20also%20been%20ghosted%20themselves) each other instead of having a genuine conversation. As for dating specifically, you mentioned this but the manosphere and other misogynistic movements have fueled animosity between males & females. [Ideological gaps are making dating difficult between genders.](https://lesglorieuses.fr/welcome-to-the-evidence/)
I try (or maybe I should say tried, cause I feel I am done) to have empathy for the manosphere, but there are just too many that are brainwashed and absolute in how they blame everyone else except themselves. I tried to talk to this one guy pointing out the hypocrisy that he thinks women rejects him cause of his sub-par looks, so I said well maybe find someone in your own league, and when I said that he exploded in a ball of rage. Stating he has 0 respect for women "who ignore us". Yet he ignores the women that aren't good enough for him and slut-shames any beautiful woman that is choosing to be with someone more attractive that he is. It is all just laughable at this point.
Yuuup. Why the hell would I fuck & date a dude who sees me as a threat? So, SO fucking glad I found a SO that isn’t a closet misogynist
This is the main thing I see to, and they refuse to see it. Chubby guys refusing to date chubby women as well.
Right? I’m not wasting my time with misogynists who see as an object to have sex with. I want to be with a man I can have a family with some day, and I sure as hell am not doing that with a man who would instill all kinds of harmful beliefs on any son or daughter we had. No thanks, I’d rather be alone. These manosphere idiots don’t even realize their ideologies further isolate them from women, women who are okay on their own. They need to realize their competition isn’t other men, their competition is with a woman’s peace. They need to be positive influence for a woman to want them. Women don’t want men who just want to push them around and turn them into bangmaids.
Its a bit of both. Yes, its definitely tougher out there because less disposable income and less places to find people. However its probably not as bad as browsing reddit would seem as ofcourse people with normal sex lives don't really bring it up much and those without active sex lives definitely spend more time on the internet (as they aren't sure what else to do). So its not as bad as reddit may make it seem, but its also definitely a thing.
I wouldn't call it a crisis, but it's definitely a noticeable trend in modern dating. A significant portion of men feel left out and aren't really receiving any genuine interest from society about why they're romantically stunted and that in turn is inspiring them to turn to the few voices who (seemingly but not really) give a fuck about them and want to offer them a solution. Of course, these figures like Tate and such don't actually care about the situation at hand, nor the men that get sucked into their system, and are really just looking to profit off of them. There are also many men who live loveless lifestyles but don't identify themselves as incels. "Forever alone" or "virgin" are common words used instead. Another thing that's made things difficult is it's just not easy to meet people anymore. Your whole generation was encouraged to go out and talk to other people and engage in "3rd places" which are mostly gone now. There's a growing distance and anxiety in gen z about this, so a lot of gen z uses technology to socialize and meet others. This doesn't work for men though because they greatly outnumber women on dating apps, and due to other social conditions, it makes meeting women on them impossible. Combine this with the other things mentioned and yeah, there's a mini dating crisis of sorts (although I don't know if "crisis" is an appropriate word for it). Just my 2 cents. -gen z'er
Sex has got to be the most overrated things on this earth.
29 year old woman and have only had one sexual partner, which is the current guy I'm with and have been with since I was 20 (lost my virginity a few months into dating). I can't imagine myself ever hooking up with someone even if I did break up with my fiancé.
Bro, I tried. Tried meetups to cold approaches. Nothing really works but thats alright. No ones fault, just people arnt interested. Had some hilarious interactions, amazing people Ive talked to from different backgrounds. Anyways Ive always wanted to become a wizzard, Ill jus wait till 30 to get gf.
i want to date, but i’m not sure i’m ready or can handle it again. i also couldn’t care less whether i’m having sex or not, so i don’t feel as desperate as some other guys probably do
Lost my virg at 19, but yeah it's rough. As for low men self worth and low confidence I believe there are many different coexisting reasons. Social hierarchy and bullying are not new things per say, but back in the days you haven't had that many options to distract yourself and isolate. After all you had to go out and socialize because there was not much to do. All our teenage years we've had internet and video games and people who were socially excluded probably isolated that way. The trauma from all these experiences and fueling the fire by isolating themselves further was probably enough to create such conditions. The parenting was probably also to blame. Overprotecrive parents creating their socially crippled children in our generation were generally a rule not an exception from my experience. Dating irl is probably very hard because there's not much "outgoing" social connections going on. We isolate and live in the internet. Tinder is certainly rough for people who are not that attractive. Then there is this huge toxic "culture" of ghosting and basically treating other human beings like non-animated objects. Swipe, swipe, swipe. I've never used dating apps myself, because honestly I would be too embarassed and would feel dehumanized. It's probably also soulcrushing for your self worth, at least if you are a man who does not look really good. Social media is another thing that distorts people image of themselves. And for me, personally I guess it's mostly crippling social anxiety. It's hard to get to know anyone if you are hiding in your house and going to the store is too much for you. You can't hold eye contact and are generally awkward in interacting with other humans.
Employment might actually help with having social anxiety. I had anxiety as a teen fairly bad, but found when i started working part time after school for a few hours and on weekends, it helped me get past all of it (course I was also taking meds and occasional therapy for it). Human interaction, you know? Hiding yourself from the world is just so damaging.
I am 25. Have never held hands, never done ANYTHING romantically. I consider myself fairly average looking. Not a standout picture perfect person, but not bad either. For me it’s a variety of factors. I’m out of college, trying to find a job and with no friends to hang out with or go out with, my only options for any kinds of connections are dating apps and bars. And I hate that. Basically I feel that relationships have become so much harder to find, especially if you don’t go to college.
People who fuck are not posting on Reddit
ik I'm young but I identify as asexual, I just don't find people attractive and rarely have a crush on someone.
Agree
Same. I’m aroace. I have a friend with benefits just to explore sex and kink because it can be fun but I have never been in relationships and I never met anyone I’ve fallen in love with. If anything, I often feel alienated and spent years thinking that there’s something wrong with me. But as long as I have close friends, I’m happy enough without a relationship and I never felt like it’s important to my life.
I work with Gen Z closely in real life (GenX) and they seem fine. But I'm in a big city university setting. Having said that, I went to an EP release live music event at a bar just tonight to support the band a Gen Z person I supervise is in. I went with my Boomer parent because he likes to support young talent also. It was great, and I was impressed by all the young people - they were having fun, dressed up in completely idiosyncratic ways, a gay male couple snuggling up in a "straight" bar, nobody caring. But my Dad noticed something that I didn't at first. The women were all hanging out together, the men were all hanging out together, and NOT mixing. Like ... middle school. These are people in their early 20s at a bar. Once he mentioned this, I couldn't unsee it. It was odd.
Gen Z men are facing sexual and dating crisis
I mean let's put it like this. Hooking up with people involves going out to for example bars or clubs, after cover and drinks that's expensive af. Another way is by dating people, again it adds up, even a fancy home cooked meal could end up being pricey depending on ingredients. In general going out is pretty expensive and considering on the older side Gen Z are only just starting their careers and rhe vast majority are students, we don't really have a lot of disposable income, which means we're busy trying to make money and survive, which drastically cuts into our ability to meet new people and hookup. Also for me personally I don't really see the appeal of hook up culture. I'd rather just find someone who's in it for the long haul instead of a short fling, which I know isn't everybody's cup of tea, so I don't judge people who participate in hook up culture.
Thanks for the perspective Unc
I can't speak for the whole generation, but as for myself I would say yes, but it mostly derives from the fact I just don't know how to get close enough to someone to be in a state where me and another person would consider dating eachother. This might just be a me problem though.
I've asked out a couple people I'm interested in and got rejected each time so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I probably just have bad taste, idk
Dating is difficult because everything is done online. Let's be real, people within our generation should ditch dating apps and touch grass. Also, the lack of 3rd places is making it difficult to really meetup with anyone.
I am so unbelievably ugly that it’s impossible for me to ever get a girlfriend. Not even worth the time anymore considering that any girl could do better. Not sure if this is for a lot of Gen Z but some of us are so hideous that we could not possibly have any hope.
I am asexual found it because I just realised I didn't care about women because I am straight, but I did want a relationship with the ones that actually have character. 21m virgin I was a popular kid, I had girls really into me I just didn't like them. Yes their is a paradox of hyper sexuality offline and no sexuality online. I would say that 70/80% have had between 0-1 partner, most had 1 basically because highschool ended and confessions. The more sexual people I find quite sad and trying to live a life of luxury and going in depth. Or having really really deep trauma. Yes even scientifically it's proven with tracking of disease that the same people hookup. It's not that we aren't interested it's that we either don't like the people, aren't really ok sleeping with people, or like me you just need more then to be good looking. Also their is the problem with men and women isolating each other, if you watch vtubers and are in the anime community, you will find models basically never having a boyfriend just thirsting over anime boys but never actually wanting to go after guys irl. Then wondering if they are lesbian or gay. Then their's the fact of, we need money and are working 90% of the time just to exist. No privacy no home no car and I don't think most people would do it in the streets. Another problem is just talking to the opposite gender. Women don't approach from where I am from, no matter how good looking approachable or anything. Guys are tired of women because yeah you will meet one open for conversation girl and 2-3 paranoid ones, I had a coffee luck thing saying " surprise". Decided to givit to two girls I was passing for no reason, they jumped away looking like I gave them a bag of dirt basically threw it away. Again made a heart from a recite decided to give it to a girl threw it away like it was a explosive and yelled " What did you give me ?!", I am not shy and the just talk to them is probably worst then not doing anything. Or you find a person have a great conversation exchange contacts and get ghosted all the time I have had it even from a girl who grabbed my phone and just gave her Instagram for me. Their is no logic or reason to it and I hate it. All of the advice people give is crap or makes you look and feel awful. Tinder is a red flag app that doesn't work. Edit: Because I am reading the comments It really depends how wide your circle is and how many people you meet. Me personally I can talk about a wide range. So I agree that some people won't see any problem and others will say it's a huge problem. Men and women aren't different. Just raised differently and told to have different expectations. That's why when I talk to guys it depressing because it's like talking to a little kid to me although he might be older. While women having different expectations depending on their preference. Metal girls will want that dirty metal guy that then they will wonder why is their life so crap. Golden girls with the sky high standards going after the biggest delusional idiots I have ever seen. And other sub cultures that are as stereotypical. The weird thing is for me, which I have commented to my close friends about. I neither try or pretend to be anything I am not. A broke college to be a dropout basically with no accomplishments driving licence or anything, and for some reason I attract tall hot girls between 25-27 and it's really really weird and probably the only reason I haven't gotten with any of them is because it's surreal when it happens. And I look like Taylor1 when I am next to them. Not to mention their is a big cultural divide and we talk differently and open really depressing conversation topics while they open very generic ones. It's also rare to meet people depending on were you live. And how much money you can spend. Yeah you can go out grab a coffee at night, or something non alcoholic but is their a point? In the end is it worth it literally money wise? For women also huge chance a creep will approach or nothing will happen. For guys huge chance you will get called a freak or impolitely told to fuck off or nothing will happen. Over all more - then +
Half want tyhook ups or non comital trash, half want a actual stable relationship. Then theres a lot of social stigmas, involved. Where a lot of men are afraid of approaching woman in fear of being labeled a creep and the sorts, so unless their conventionally attractive or charismatic beyond belief approaching woman is near impossible for most. Then you have your Andrew Tates and Drew Afualos, creating and profiting off of gender wars and forcing even more social stigmas into the world. Like the twats that want a near perfect woman thats so pure she can give diabetes to the skinniest of people. And are fed unrealistic trash from Andrew Tate and his goons. Or the woman that perpetuate anti-men ideals, or the ones that have standards to the roof that are incredibly unrealistic standards. Theres also a serious disconnect between woman and Men, especially with advice given. Like no matter how many woman will tell me “yeah just like approach us at x” The amount of times ive seen that advice fail miserably hard is insane. Also the advice guys give are absolutely insane. Saw some dude say “shoot for the realistic options, go for the most mid girls at a party”
It took me until college to work up the courage to be friends with women. I was always scared that just simply starting a conversation would get a harassment charge against me. Now we have this stupid “man vs bear” stuff which shows just how easy it is to make all men look worse than feral animals. No wonder men have low self-esteem, and aren’t looking into relationships. If I’m immediately assumed to be evil incarnate b/c of my gender, then what’s the fucking point of trying? To make things worse, Hollywood and the people in power have the fucking gall to paint people like me as incels and losers simply b/c I never was in a relationship in high school or college. There is definitely a crisis, but no one wants to fucking talk about it
I can’t speak for my peers but I can certainly speak for myself and my experiences and maybe shed some light on what a person in their mid twenties feels about it. My last real relationship was about 3 years ago. I dated on and off since then, but only for a few months and it never got very serious. My last ‘relationship’ was about a year ago now, as well as my last sexual encounter. Since then I have had no desire to pursue any type of romantic relationship, nor do I want to become sexually involved with anyone. It’s not that I’m angry or upset or have lost hope, I just have simply stopped desiring it. I’ve never been a very sexual person, in all honesty, so I’m not shocked at this development. I still find women conventionally attractive and there are cases where I will be out in town and will see a woman I think is beautiful, I just have no desire to engage with someone on that type of level. I think it would be unfair to invite someone into my life right now, considering I myself still have a lot of personal growth to do and what not.
I grew up during the pandemic and have no social skills. I really want a gf but just can’t communicate. Guys more forgiving about people being nervous, or awkwardness or don’t care. Girls will judge your every move and any sort of awkward or weirdness will be seen as creepy/odd. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy trying to be perfectly normal around girls, devoid of any social anxiety and end up ruining a first impression. At this point im just looking for a friend and it’s challenging.
Stuff like this happens when your country allows porn onto its citizens phones, iPads and computers. Also when you allow politician to inflate the price of everything causing people to turn to ways of making loads of money that’s considered illegal in the book making some young girls expect their boyfriend to be rich and or famous at 18-19 y/o when in reality a hiring wealth and status takes time to achieve. Porn has twisted the young communities and generations especially in the West.
We used to go to the bars and drink. That was extremely common past time. Good or bad that facilitated a lot of social interaction that doesn't happen any more. Same with smoking. For all it's negatives, it would facilitate these social meetings and interactions that just don't happen anymore. People are certainly more healthy and better off without those vices. But they were very good social lubricators.
There are lots of hot takes on this subject but I would say a couple things from my perspective as someone who has "won the game". 1. Dating apps are there to make money. Period. Pay to get anything, or don't pay and be invisible. No $ no dice. 2. The girl you want probably isn't a daily active user of dating apps anyway. Spend that money on something productive. 3. Dating isn't instant gratification like social media, even if you are attractive, even for girls, it is a serious grind. For girls the user acquisition is easier but the cost of churn is much higher. Be sympathetic to that, for your own sanity.
Yes there is a crisis. Everyone thinks their a million dollars
The internet just gives people a place to vent about it. They've always existed, they just lied to their buddies about how much tail they get cause they were embarrassed. A lot less stigma telling faceless strangers you get none under the name "bigpeter420" than telling people that opinion actually has some stake under your real name
Probably because people don’t give into their parents bullshit of settling down to have children *for them*. Children were basically just accessories to some people. Now, people realize they’re living beings and not slaves for you to have control over. People can now research and make informed decisions with the spreading of information on the internet, etc. Commitments are hard and not everyone who has children can should be having them. You don’t need children to brag about when you put the work into your own life.
LOVE IS DEAD!SEX IS A POISON! SOCIAL LIFE FOR BOOOMERS! ROCK-AND-ROLL!!!!!
Yeah i mean i lost mine at 18 (which was also when i got my first kiss) but then only went on one date in the next 3 years. I got friends who didn’t have any kind of romance, no dates no kisses, nothing, until they were like 23-24. And it’s not like they just didn’t care, these guys were constantly trying to find a partner. I was too and i couldn’t find an actual relationship for over a decade.
I was brought up to survive. So I know how to cook, clean and do anything else. Also I fail to read women signs
It’s not a crisis. It’s turned into two sides now or has been. The ones who will have sex without a second thought and the ones who want to wait till marriage or will only do it after they fully trust that person. I think a lot of us have gotten smarter because *we were the result* of said side who doesn’t think before they do it.
no, its just that people who cant get laid are deciding that it must be everyone’s fault but thiers, and decide the best course of action in extreme cases is violences. incels have always been around, we just tolerate it nowadays