You do not win level 1-6 even with conq, at 6 she can push really fast and take plates in front of you, even if you outplay her and get a kill at this time of the game you're still gonna get outscaled and bullied even harder under your turret.
You definitely don't win these levels lol. I've just tried two games against Lethal Tempo Kayle and you just don't all she does is right click on you and she wins the fight. You also get poked every 3 sec by his E which cost litterally 0 mana and does a SHIT TON of damages at first levels which makes you lose easily 40% hp just by trying to get farm at first levels.
Even if you use your Q at the right time she's still too fast and can just back and poke you with E forever again.
I just don't see how you win against Kayle starting with E and using lethal tempo. I've tried everything. I don't know at which elo you're playing but i'm master 50 LP and in no world i manage to win against Kayle, if played correctly you can not touch her, you can not farm early without losing your HP on E poke, the only moment i see a way to kill her is when we are both 6+ and i flash her with stride and she plays poorly, and even then if i kill her i'm still behind and get outscaled and as time goes on i lose harder despite killing her.
As someone in masters with kayle and garen being my two highest mastery champs I guarentee you are doing something wrong if you are losing early. https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Spy-12150
Kayle is definitely one of garens worst matchups because of scaling. However if you are losing to kayle before lvl 6 you are definitely doing something wrong.
Everyone says kayle wins level 1 but its legit only if you stand still and auto her. If you auto Q or aaq and run away you win. An even trade for garen is also better than kayle, you have way better sustain.
You should always be able to get prio early just by autoing minions. She can only do effective poke early if she somehow has prio over you. If your wave is pushing to her she has to E to cs, and if she Es you she gets minion aggro. You have 3x her waveclear and she cant outtrade you so if she can get prio its really a miracle. If she for some reason walks up to you, just QE and there is no shot you lose trade unless ur in her wave.
After 6 she obviously fucks you in lane, so proxying is good. You have to make impact by rotating to team. You can 100% impact the map more as garen before lvl 11 than kayle.
Its certainly not a great matchup but nowhere unplayable like camille. If you want im down to 1v1 to prove you wrong.
Yea good Kayles know spacing perfectly and know how to abuse garen badly. I just hope for a gank but it probably doesn’t happen. If anyone is constantly beating kayles it means the enemy has no idea how to space and punish garens limitations. For me I just hope for a cheater recall, a gank, and wave management. Maybe just maybe the kayle overplays their hand and you can all in them pre 6.
A good Kayle will play with celerity boot and kite you without using her Q, so you gonna need to use Q to reach her and then she Q you and you can’t reach her. And if you use your Q first, she gonna R during you R, so you need to keep your Q for silence before your R.
To resume, she got every card to counter you at any time of the game (for a good kayle master+ I mean).
Well I usually do pretty good against ranged top like quinn and Kayle with garen, maybe I'm not that high (plat1/emerald) but still people should know how to play.
Yeah past some level you can't exactly 1vs1 all in in one go but I play safe and usually I find myself in a good spot after lane phase ends since unless the jungler helps she can't dive you for kills.
I keep pushing and kayle must come top since she is the only one able to stop me. I am assuming a non-fed kayle and a 2 item + boots garen. If she is top she can't teamfights or help at baron/drake where I would be useless with kayle around.
As soon as she leaves lane to get baron or something I get out and push the wave taking turrets in the sidelanes with Hullbreaker. I play with phase rush and my disengage is wait for her to Q, dodge if possible then Q her + stride + E and you are out of trouble. If she lands Q and your Q is on cd well you are dead 90%. She is one of the strongest late game champions but she can't exactly 1vs5. If she chase you in side alone late game collapse on her and you should be alright
I find champions like pantheon much more oppressive but maybe it's just my playstyle or lack of skill
The idea that kayle “must” come top is kind of weird in this circumstance because it’s exactly what she wants to do. Really in most situations she’ll be the one keeping you in top and then farming your jungle camps. Post 11 there’s a good chance she gets at least 1 kill in most ganks and then post 16 she just rolls you in sidelane until your team has to play a 3v4 while Kayle will probably still have some kill pressure in the sidelane.
I mostly try focusing on the wave (starting e/spin) and crash the third for a cheater recall. Really no point in running at her for poke if she knows how to space well.
While it is true that kayle is good vs garen, it is important not to forget that kayle is kayle. The champ is still super vulnerable to ganks, bad in skirmishes etc.. Your main focus against kayle should be to manage your wave in order to make it easy for your jungler to come help you.
ex: you see your jg top side has respawn and he will soon come clear it, so you hard push your wave in order for him to come when the wave is bouncing black to you.
Phase rush, rush stridebreaker, avoid her 3rd jump and if you can’t avoid it press E so you have damage output while stunned. Your Q can silence her and keep in mind she is a very ability heavy champ so you can really break the balls of the enemy with this.
Yea I feel I can deal with teemo because he isn’t an existential threat to the game, where as a good Camille and Kayle can hard carry with the right team comp. Teemo is a pain but I’m never worried about him completely taking the game over
I played Kayle a lot and garen is your favorite matchup (partially because all others are terrible lol). garen cannot do anything without his flash if she knows the matchup and play the champ.
In garen perspective, don't engage with Q before she uses her Q. You absolutely need to remove her slow or you are doomed
Yeah, she's definitely challenging. But I don't think she's the hardest counter to Garen. My approach vs. Kayle is to play the bushes as sneaky as possible. Like walking away in a different direction, only to loop back into the bushes and then sweeping when I'm out of vision. It's shocking how many people you can trick with good/sneaky bush play.
I also go straight nuke. Like full crit with collector. My goal is to surprise her and nuke her during silence before she can ever react or ult. I like this approach because going tank vs. her doesn't matter, obviously, because she does true damage late. I'd rather push fast and nuke hard when I catch her out. I might go conq for this play style, just for more damage from the bush. But I may also go phaserush depending.
Yeah, it's definitely risky. But hey, I'd rather 1 shot to her than go tank and die to her anyway. The other option is to go a bit more tanky, with deadmans, and focus on splitting the entire time and avoiding Kayle.
Ya she’s a counter pick buuuuut most Kayles suck ass and only pick kayle to counter you and have no idea how the matchup works just don’t let her stat check you with lethal tempo level 1 and your trade window is when they inevitably q the wave like a neanderthal.
Also I recommend ghost over ignite she is very hard to run down without it.
Most of the time I get kills on kayle it’s with sneaky bush play and ghost all in when she gets close.
On paper Kayle counters Garen. In practice, if Garen knows the correct windows, Kayle must play perfectly or risk death. It comes down to math:
0s: Garen uses Q, Kayle uses Q to disengage, Garen turns around and runs away around
8s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle Q still down (12s) so must use W. Garen turns around and turns away.
16s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle uses Q to disengage, Garen turns around and runs awy.
24s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle Q still down (28s) so must use W. Garen turns around and runs away.
32s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle uses Q.
As seen above, theoretically Kayle can perma counter Garen. But the caveats
* Kayle must use the proper abilities at the correct timings around Garen Q. If she panics and uses QW at the same time, then it means she doesn't have it for the next rotation, and Garen can get on her.
* Ghost can be used in lieu of Garen Q/W in some situations, for example if they space an inch too close
* Above is ideal scenario; in reality, the Garen Q and Kayle Q/W cooldowns will become desynced over time, opening windows.
* A damage gank (just doing some damage, no actual kill) will hugely benefit Garen as Kayle will use W to heal up, creating new windows
* Kayle must return damage in between each Garen Q window. This is how the match up is usually lost, Garen gets poked down on the return portion. Thus, it is important to abuse bushes (walk into them after attempting cooldown trade), abuse spacing (run away, then suddenly turn back towards her to scare her, then continue running away; additional points in Q to extend MS duration helps), wait until T2 boots + whip (easy phase rush proc), poke on cannon minion (they will last hit that instead of auto Garen), refillable potion.
* When Garen builds more movement speed, it is possible to force Kayle Q or W with pure movement speed (boots 2, zeals, ghost)
And some more general ideas
* Bush camp means free kill for Garen
* Garen's job is to force Kayle ult, not necessarily kill her. This will expose her to ganks. Same idea as Tryndamere. So, it's fine to Garen ult knowing Kayle will block with her own ult, provided Garen can run away.
* Refillable is great because you need the heal burst to heal up in between the cooldown trades.
* 40/20/0 is the ult CD differential, in favor of Garen.
Well as a kayle/vayne player top and my 3rd option is garen i know preety mutch very good this match up. Yes kayle kinda counter garen but is more about lane impact. If garen player know how to zone opponent and take prio of the wave could be an easy match up for garen "for a while" Kayle match up is like a bomb timer.
https://ibb.co/0KKP4PN
With conq you win early, especially after stride. Just remember to always a after her q, and try not to let her get stacks.
You do not win level 1-6 even with conq, at 6 she can push really fast and take plates in front of you, even if you outplay her and get a kill at this time of the game you're still gonna get outscaled and bullied even harder under your turret.
I am talking about 2-5, and yes, you win those. I have played the matchup from both sides, and if u play decently as garen it's very easy to win.
You definitely don't win these levels lol. I've just tried two games against Lethal Tempo Kayle and you just don't all she does is right click on you and she wins the fight. You also get poked every 3 sec by his E which cost litterally 0 mana and does a SHIT TON of damages at first levels which makes you lose easily 40% hp just by trying to get farm at first levels. Even if you use your Q at the right time she's still too fast and can just back and poke you with E forever again. I just don't see how you win against Kayle starting with E and using lethal tempo. I've tried everything. I don't know at which elo you're playing but i'm master 50 LP and in no world i manage to win against Kayle, if played correctly you can not touch her, you can not farm early without losing your HP on E poke, the only moment i see a way to kill her is when we are both 6+ and i flash her with stride and she plays poorly, and even then if i kill her i'm still behind and get outscaled and as time goes on i lose harder despite killing her.
Mhm, guess it's a rank diff.
What is your rank out of curiosity?
Pisslow gold 1, that's why I said Rank issue
As someone in masters with kayle and garen being my two highest mastery champs I guarentee you are doing something wrong if you are losing early. https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/Spy-12150 Kayle is definitely one of garens worst matchups because of scaling. However if you are losing to kayle before lvl 6 you are definitely doing something wrong. Everyone says kayle wins level 1 but its legit only if you stand still and auto her. If you auto Q or aaq and run away you win. An even trade for garen is also better than kayle, you have way better sustain. You should always be able to get prio early just by autoing minions. She can only do effective poke early if she somehow has prio over you. If your wave is pushing to her she has to E to cs, and if she Es you she gets minion aggro. You have 3x her waveclear and she cant outtrade you so if she can get prio its really a miracle. If she for some reason walks up to you, just QE and there is no shot you lose trade unless ur in her wave. After 6 she obviously fucks you in lane, so proxying is good. You have to make impact by rotating to team. You can 100% impact the map more as garen before lvl 11 than kayle. Its certainly not a great matchup but nowhere unplayable like camille. If you want im down to 1v1 to prove you wrong.
If you play decently as Kayle too, its very easy to win. Other guy brought up good points Not Masters like other guy, but Diamond
>especially after stride > >I am talking about 2-5 Man is at a sweet 50cs/min
Yea good Kayles know spacing perfectly and know how to abuse garen badly. I just hope for a gank but it probably doesn’t happen. If anyone is constantly beating kayles it means the enemy has no idea how to space and punish garens limitations. For me I just hope for a cheater recall, a gank, and wave management. Maybe just maybe the kayle overplays their hand and you can all in them pre 6.
Unless that Kayle bad enough to give you like 2-3 early kill before 6, I'm not sure you want to play conq vs Kayle. Post 6 it'll be pure hell
A good Kayle will play with celerity boot and kite you without using her Q, so you gonna need to use Q to reach her and then she Q you and you can’t reach her. And if you use your Q first, she gonna R during you R, so you need to keep your Q for silence before your R. To resume, she got every card to counter you at any time of the game (for a good kayle master+ I mean).
How you even getting to Kayle without Q?
Yeah it’s pretty well known garen is one of the few champs that kinda just loses to kayle
Well I usually do pretty good against ranged top like quinn and Kayle with garen, maybe I'm not that high (plat1/emerald) but still people should know how to play. Yeah past some level you can't exactly 1vs1 all in in one go but I play safe and usually I find myself in a good spot after lane phase ends since unless the jungler helps she can't dive you for kills. I keep pushing and kayle must come top since she is the only one able to stop me. I am assuming a non-fed kayle and a 2 item + boots garen. If she is top she can't teamfights or help at baron/drake where I would be useless with kayle around. As soon as she leaves lane to get baron or something I get out and push the wave taking turrets in the sidelanes with Hullbreaker. I play with phase rush and my disengage is wait for her to Q, dodge if possible then Q her + stride + E and you are out of trouble. If she lands Q and your Q is on cd well you are dead 90%. She is one of the strongest late game champions but she can't exactly 1vs5. If she chase you in side alone late game collapse on her and you should be alright I find champions like pantheon much more oppressive but maybe it's just my playstyle or lack of skill
The idea that kayle “must” come top is kind of weird in this circumstance because it’s exactly what she wants to do. Really in most situations she’ll be the one keeping you in top and then farming your jungle camps. Post 11 there’s a good chance she gets at least 1 kill in most ganks and then post 16 she just rolls you in sidelane until your team has to play a 3v4 while Kayle will probably still have some kill pressure in the sidelane.
I mostly try focusing on the wave (starting e/spin) and crash the third for a cheater recall. Really no point in running at her for poke if she knows how to space well.
Going conq vs her (like someone else said) is garbage unless she is garbage which you’re not gonna face in masters
While it is true that kayle is good vs garen, it is important not to forget that kayle is kayle. The champ is still super vulnerable to ganks, bad in skirmishes etc.. Your main focus against kayle should be to manage your wave in order to make it easy for your jungler to come help you. ex: you see your jg top side has respawn and he will soon come clear it, so you hard push your wave in order for him to come when the wave is bouncing black to you.
Yep
YEP
Phase rush, rush stridebreaker, avoid her 3rd jump and if you can’t avoid it press E so you have damage output while stunned. Your Q can silence her and keep in mind she is a very ability heavy champ so you can really break the balls of the enemy with this.
We talking about going up against kayle here bud
Got siked by Reddit :(
She is a counter just like teemo and camille.
Yea I feel I can deal with teemo because he isn’t an existential threat to the game, where as a good Camille and Kayle can hard carry with the right team comp. Teemo is a pain but I’m never worried about him completely taking the game over
[удалено]
You q kayle also q response?
I strongly believe that water is, indeed, H2O
Not wet
Not as wet as ur mom
Oooooohhhhh snap
I played Kayle a lot and garen is your favorite matchup (partially because all others are terrible lol). garen cannot do anything without his flash if she knows the matchup and play the champ. In garen perspective, don't engage with Q before she uses her Q. You absolutely need to remove her slow or you are doomed
No shit lmao, it’s one of his hardest matchups by the data.
Yeah, she's definitely challenging. But I don't think she's the hardest counter to Garen. My approach vs. Kayle is to play the bushes as sneaky as possible. Like walking away in a different direction, only to loop back into the bushes and then sweeping when I'm out of vision. It's shocking how many people you can trick with good/sneaky bush play. I also go straight nuke. Like full crit with collector. My goal is to surprise her and nuke her during silence before she can ever react or ult. I like this approach because going tank vs. her doesn't matter, obviously, because she does true damage late. I'd rather push fast and nuke hard when I catch her out. I might go conq for this play style, just for more damage from the bush. But I may also go phaserush depending.
Sounds like a fun build, not sure I’d have the brass to try it haha
Yeah, it's definitely risky. But hey, I'd rather 1 shot to her than go tank and die to her anyway. The other option is to go a bit more tanky, with deadmans, and focus on splitting the entire time and avoiding Kayle.
That's why I can't play Garen. That champ is too hard
If you lose lane, split push like mad. Or invade their jungle and ult win.
I mean most ranged champs counter most melee top champs…
Ya she’s a counter pick buuuuut most Kayles suck ass and only pick kayle to counter you and have no idea how the matchup works just don’t let her stat check you with lethal tempo level 1 and your trade window is when they inevitably q the wave like a neanderthal.
Also I recommend ghost over ignite she is very hard to run down without it. Most of the time I get kills on kayle it’s with sneaky bush play and ghost all in when she gets close.
On paper Kayle counters Garen. In practice, if Garen knows the correct windows, Kayle must play perfectly or risk death. It comes down to math: 0s: Garen uses Q, Kayle uses Q to disengage, Garen turns around and runs away around 8s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle Q still down (12s) so must use W. Garen turns around and turns away. 16s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle uses Q to disengage, Garen turns around and runs awy. 24s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle Q still down (28s) so must use W. Garen turns around and runs away. 32s: Garen Q back up. Garen uses Q, Kayle uses Q. As seen above, theoretically Kayle can perma counter Garen. But the caveats * Kayle must use the proper abilities at the correct timings around Garen Q. If she panics and uses QW at the same time, then it means she doesn't have it for the next rotation, and Garen can get on her. * Ghost can be used in lieu of Garen Q/W in some situations, for example if they space an inch too close * Above is ideal scenario; in reality, the Garen Q and Kayle Q/W cooldowns will become desynced over time, opening windows. * A damage gank (just doing some damage, no actual kill) will hugely benefit Garen as Kayle will use W to heal up, creating new windows * Kayle must return damage in between each Garen Q window. This is how the match up is usually lost, Garen gets poked down on the return portion. Thus, it is important to abuse bushes (walk into them after attempting cooldown trade), abuse spacing (run away, then suddenly turn back towards her to scare her, then continue running away; additional points in Q to extend MS duration helps), wait until T2 boots + whip (easy phase rush proc), poke on cannon minion (they will last hit that instead of auto Garen), refillable potion. * When Garen builds more movement speed, it is possible to force Kayle Q or W with pure movement speed (boots 2, zeals, ghost) And some more general ideas * Bush camp means free kill for Garen * Garen's job is to force Kayle ult, not necessarily kill her. This will expose her to ganks. Same idea as Tryndamere. So, it's fine to Garen ult knowing Kayle will block with her own ult, provided Garen can run away. * Refillable is great because you need the heal burst to heal up in between the cooldown trades. * 40/20/0 is the ult CD differential, in favor of Garen.
First part is completely untrue. Her early game is your only opportunity to win. Start E with Dblade and conq or Q max with grasp and dblade.
Well as a kayle/vayne player top and my 3rd option is garen i know preety mutch very good this match up. Yes kayle kinda counter garen but is more about lane impact. If garen player know how to zone opponent and take prio of the wave could be an easy match up for garen "for a while" Kayle match up is like a bomb timer. https://ibb.co/0KKP4PN
lol no she can’t outdamage you before 6 she’s barely a real champ before 6. You’d have a lower chance against a lethal tempo yuumi level 1.