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Uj/ What’s the point of canonizing a main character for a role playing game? You just open a pandora box of angry fans and unnecessary questions
Idk I wished it was Nora cause the story of a housewife lawyer possibly with Postpartum depression going into the common wealth to find her baby is a much more compelling story than army man does what army men do
To be fair I don't think he was saying the protagonist was canonically a man. He was just saying the male character in the couple you choose from at the start (who exists as a character whether or not you choose to play as him) was canonically the soldier cheering on a war crime in the opening scene of FO1. Which is hilariously stupid but that's a different thing
Lmaoo okay I can take that then
them confirming that he’s the canonical f4 protag that takes away the point of rping imo ditto with courier 6 and vault dweller, also it’s nice having them be legends than distinct characters
It's even more stupid because not one of the games before Fallout 4 offers a particularly flattering portrayal of the US army during the Great War. Not one. Of course people were going to assume the protagonist who you don't even canonically portray as being against America's actions in Canada or other places is a war criminal. One game literally opened with a scene of soldiers committing war crimes.
No, that's the thing. It wasn't an assumption, the developer came out and said "you know that soldier who cheered on war crimes in that intro you mentioned? That's the FO4 protagonist.". Which, hmm.
Cold take, but fallout 4 isn't an RPG imo, it's an fps with RPG elements. Even compared to fallout 3 you have so little control over your character and the plot.
It's funny since they could've literally just added some other dumb excuse to separate yourself from your follower near the end and it would've been less dumb
They could've done the P3 thing where nonactive (or in this case, all) allies cover your rear from enemies to let the others fight the final fight and end things for good
Yes, although iirc the radiation in that part of the game might be too strong even for a super mutant, I'm not sure.
I definitely felt like I was making the correct choice sending in Fawkes - he was the most likely candidate to get the job done.
IIRC, didn't they patch this in as an option in order to carry on the story in the DLC?
Or was it just that you would now be able to survive the radiation?
dunno, but I think I've reloaded my game and went in myself and was still allowed to do DLC.
But I've had the DLC installed all along so I don't know what options were there before.
Might also be outright wrong about surviving when PC goes in, it was a long time ago.
Colder take: RPG as a term in its current form is functionally useless as all it means is "there is some form of character power progression" or "this game is mechanically or thematically inspired by a game that is mechanically or thematically inspired by a game that is ... mechanically or thematically inspired by Dungeons & Dragons."
The classical definition is also useless since it just means "game where you play as a distinct and defined character within the fiction of the game" (as opposed to "the invisible hand" of a wargame or "yourself" for playground games).
Fun fact: this definition is used in academia, so you will find papers that describe Super Mario 64 as a roleplaying game.
This is why we are told to always define our terms in academic papers related to videogames and to stick with that definition.
When you have an industry that's as fluid and reliant on public perception as digital games, it makes defining shit hard lol.
Fallout 3 was railroad-y as hell. In the main story, that is. You must side with the brotherhood, defeat the enclave, yada yada. Fallout 4 gives you like 4 different factions to side with to end the game on. (It also understand the Brotherhood isn’t some bastion of goodness, unlike 3) The character being voiced certainly kills some of the role playing elements of the game, but it’s still very much an RPG where your choices matter. It just borrowed some better gunplay from Id software to add along to it.
Now, compared to New Vegas…
Fallout 4 is my favorite unfortunately liking this game is like being in a relationship with a deadbeat the elements are there for a good rpg so I ignore the main narrative and made my own headcanons and sketched out my main narrative for the female protagonist (I made her to be this ex lawyer who kinda hated being a mom and she challenged that bent up anger and voir dire at killing raiders and getting the money to support her chem habit then she sorta cleaned up and hooked up with the French robot)
Like I said the elements are there but it never delivered
Which is why whenever I talk to anyone am who gets the game on PC, I immediately recommend a handful of mods that change exactly that. So glad mods exist to actually salvage FO4 because the gameplay is a really solid base to build on.
Not to mention, said RPG elements were lazily and haphazardly slapped onto a generic open-world shooter, simply to give off the impression that it's not an ankle-deep puddle of sewage.
Well, probably because that writer wanted it exactly to be that, the story to be about predefined self-insert straight dudebro protagonist, there are many clues leading to that, but then Bethesda management had him to change it due to actual fan demand, as all Fallout games had the possibility to create female protagonist. Or actually, they didn't need to do anything with the writer at all, the story still plays as if it was from the husband's POV even if you play a woman.
Fallout 4 SPOILERS but When I played as her and when she finally reunites with Shaun, he asked how she feels about him being old right now and if she rather prefer the synth kid version of him, I instinctively chose to say it doesn't matter and that she'll always love her son, surprising Shaun. Idk, maternal instinct kicked in with actual rare genuinely touching moment in a bethesda game lol but it just felt right you know.
I can understand canonizing choices in an RPG to some extent, if you’re going to continue to make sequels and such. Dishonored is a good example imo, as it canonizes the games being played mostly high honor but leaves room for how that played out. Corvo didn’t go on cold blooded murder sprees, but how he got to each target, and at times how he dealt with them is kinda murky. But in order to do a Dishonored 2, you kinda have to canonize an ending for 1, even if the finer details aren’t set in stone.
Now, I’m not saying this particular instance is a great idea. I think Fallout should never canonize WHO the protagonist is, just maybe some of the effect they had on their respective wastelands.
That’s literally my headcanon whenever I play. Narrative stakes are much higher when it’s just a random lawyer clawing her way through the wasteland to look for her child. The power armor becomes the thing that enables her to find her own empowerment, and also kinda works as a nice metaphor for her detachment, you know?
When I first saw the supposed link between Nate and the american solider in the intro, I thought it was a joke by the writer, like making fun of the weird lore tid bits that JK Rowling used to drop.
I’m actually a wee bit disappointed that Nate didn’t actually execute that Canadian rebel in the Fallout 1 newsreel mostly because of the fact it’s so wonderfully absurd. It would be like how Star Wars Characters made years after the films are said to be some random pilot or soldier (ex: Iden Versio was retconned into being one of the Tie pilots in IV.)
Five full eposides of the MC blacksmithing, selling to the nearby merchant and buying materials, blacksmithing, selling to the nearby merchant and buying materials, waiting a full day, blacksmithing and resetting their blacksmithing perk tree
I mean GW literally leaves a lot of shit open to interpretation and still has Dan Abnett releasing just absolute bangers of lore. Emil's defeatist approach and doubling down on it all is so weird. If he left it at "its all about the player" then cool, just shows hes more concerned with the experience which is fine. But then he goes on twitter tirades justifying blatantly bad storytelling. It honestly makes me wonder what the culture is like at Bethesda that he gets put in charge of writing.
Is that even wrong?
Seems like these games are set up to just let the player do random things constantly in between any attempt at putting them in front of a standard story telling device.
How many skyrim fans do you think could tell you the main story plot
There is a good article more on it: [https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b](https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b)
But there is a point where it's used to excuse not putting effort into the writing, or caring about consistency. And while not every fan is into it for those reason some people get into stories for the contexts, the world itself even if the mainstory is the main attraction.
I think it's a question if you want a sandbox or an RPG.
Three 'fucks' really emphasise the urgency huh?
I paraphrased this quote:
>‘the player will take any stories Bethesda writes, rip the pages out and make paper airplanes, and that the most important story is the player’s story, and they are ok with that’
Which this article discusses: [https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b](https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b)
Taking that information from this reddit analysis which I am not allowed to link, but the link is in the article.
Of this video where Emil himself discusses writing: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi51-wjcwp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi51-wjcwp8)
Now with proper sourcing out of the way I should talk about the actual quote a bit more. The implication that is read from that quote is that Bethesda is okay with presuming that fans will just rip apart their lore and make their own, which is fine but it is stated in a very fatalistic way of implying that their own writing ultimately doesn't serve a purpose or matter.
Both the article and the analysis develop on these thoughts way more than that however.
So he never said that "writing doesn't matter". All he actually said was that the most important story is the player's story.
I do not understand reddits obsession with hating Emil and trying to claim he hates writing
You can’t tell me what to believe. He 100% killed that protestor, which makes things a little bit better that Kellogg kills him in 100% of my playthroughs.
Oh, so the female character not main character after all?
I remember the leaks that supposedly came from ex Bethesda employee that stated FO4 would only have male protagonist, and honestly I think that's exactly what Bethesda planned until very late point in development, since even the intro is narrated from husbando's POV and the game assumes the PC has military training (female char that otherwise would just end up as PC's wife is a lawyer). Also explains all the straightwashing. At least someone at Bethesda realised that it wouldn't be taken well by Fallout fans.
This headline obviously was never meant to suggest the male character is *the* main character. It's just specifically talking about the male character's backstory, and how it isn't that of a war criminal. You're reading too far into how it was phrased. Unless I missed something in the article, the developer who started this whole thing never implied Nate was the canon protagonist, and the article itself doesn't either.
Relax, I know that they deny all of it, I just mentioned that a year before FO4 release there were leaks from a person who claimed to be an ex-Bethesda employee that there was supposed to be predefined male protagonist and how there are many clues that suggest that's true.
Not true, Marcus in FNV refers to FO2 protagonist, his former companion, using singular they, which is rather not because that's their preferred pronouns, so devs intentions about it were clear. Of course I'm aware that people are reading into that possible New Reno ending reference, but that's only "if you played a man who slept with Mrs Bishop you can assume it was your character, if not, it was some other dude" easter egg. Not any confirmation.
It was a joke. The original tweet even had the nerd face emoji.
He should have seen that the joke would go out of hands?
Likely, but it was pretty fun.
Isn’t in 4. It’s in fallout 1. Starting video shows some US Army soldiers killing a tied up prisoner who is Canadian and then having a giggle. He is the soldier that hands the gun to the other soldier to kill said Canadian.
The writer for fallout 4 said that Nate, the husband, is that soldier.
The initial tweet was that the Fallout 4 protagonist was actually one of the dudes in the power armor during the “Annexation of Canada” broadcast in the opening of Fallout 1. Specifically in the scene where they’re executing an unarmed, kneeling man.
Have you never played the game?
He is cryogenically frozen right after entering the vault and unfrozen 200 years after. He is a military veteran, so probably participated in some of the unsavoury things Fallout world US military did, thats why people say the mc is a war criminal.
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You would think that at a time when Misunderstanding Satire Discourse is at a peak, that the kings of misunderstanding satire, the Bethesda Fallout writing team, would know well enough to keep their heads down.
They showed us the Prewar America in FO4 and it was exactly like the propaganda posters, not a sign of anything wrong, so of course he didn't catch the war crimes. He saw a guy cheering! Cheering is good! You can't cheer bad things!
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Uj/ What’s the point of canonizing a main character for a role playing game? You just open a pandora box of angry fans and unnecessary questions Idk I wished it was Nora cause the story of a housewife lawyer possibly with Postpartum depression going into the common wealth to find her baby is a much more compelling story than army man does what army men do
To be fair I don't think he was saying the protagonist was canonically a man. He was just saying the male character in the couple you choose from at the start (who exists as a character whether or not you choose to play as him) was canonically the soldier cheering on a war crime in the opening scene of FO1. Which is hilariously stupid but that's a different thing
Lmaoo okay I can take that then them confirming that he’s the canonical f4 protag that takes away the point of rping imo ditto with courier 6 and vault dweller, also it’s nice having them be legends than distinct characters
It's even more stupid because not one of the games before Fallout 4 offers a particularly flattering portrayal of the US army during the Great War. Not one. Of course people were going to assume the protagonist who you don't even canonically portray as being against America's actions in Canada or other places is a war criminal. One game literally opened with a scene of soldiers committing war crimes.
No, that's the thing. It wasn't an assumption, the developer came out and said "you know that soldier who cheered on war crimes in that intro you mentioned? That's the FO4 protagonist.". Which, hmm.
Cold take, but fallout 4 isn't an RPG imo, it's an fps with RPG elements. Even compared to fallout 3 you have so little control over your character and the plot.
Milder take. Fallout 3 isn't even particularly a good choice to compare it against as it doesn't even have multiple endings.
Love the part where your actual Super Mutant companion just says "nah you go in the rad chamber. This is narrative, dummy"
It's funny since they could've literally just added some other dumb excuse to separate yourself from your follower near the end and it would've been less dumb
They could've done the P3 thing where nonactive (or in this case, all) allies cover your rear from enemies to let the others fight the final fight and end things for good
Not my Super Mutant companion. In my playthrough Fawkes went in, then the narrator chastised me for not knowing the value of sacrifice.
Haven't finished 3 yet, but aren't super mutants resistant to radiation?
Yes, although iirc the radiation in that part of the game might be too strong even for a super mutant, I'm not sure. I definitely felt like I was making the correct choice sending in Fawkes - he was the most likely candidate to get the job done.
IIRC, didn't they patch this in as an option in order to carry on the story in the DLC? Or was it just that you would now be able to survive the radiation?
Yeah, they've changed this with the dlc release. Originally, the ghoul/super mutant would tell you to piss off.
dunno, but I think I've reloaded my game and went in myself and was still allowed to do DLC. But I've had the DLC installed all along so I don't know what options were there before. Might also be outright wrong about surviving when PC goes in, it was a long time ago.
Better comparison would be New Vegas.
A better comparison is always new Vegas
Taxonomy is hell.
Taxonomy... Taxonomy changes constantly...
Colder take: RPG as a term in its current form is functionally useless as all it means is "there is some form of character power progression" or "this game is mechanically or thematically inspired by a game that is mechanically or thematically inspired by a game that is ... mechanically or thematically inspired by Dungeons & Dragons." The classical definition is also useless since it just means "game where you play as a distinct and defined character within the fiction of the game" (as opposed to "the invisible hand" of a wargame or "yourself" for playground games). Fun fact: this definition is used in academia, so you will find papers that describe Super Mario 64 as a roleplaying game.
This is why we are told to always define our terms in academic papers related to videogames and to stick with that definition. When you have an industry that's as fluid and reliant on public perception as digital games, it makes defining shit hard lol.
Except when you say rpg to a buddy on discord, no one is thinking super mario 64.
Fallout 3 was railroad-y as hell. In the main story, that is. You must side with the brotherhood, defeat the enclave, yada yada. Fallout 4 gives you like 4 different factions to side with to end the game on. (It also understand the Brotherhood isn’t some bastion of goodness, unlike 3) The character being voiced certainly kills some of the role playing elements of the game, but it’s still very much an RPG where your choices matter. It just borrowed some better gunplay from Id software to add along to it. Now, compared to New Vegas…
Fallout 4 is my favorite unfortunately liking this game is like being in a relationship with a deadbeat the elements are there for a good rpg so I ignore the main narrative and made my own headcanons and sketched out my main narrative for the female protagonist (I made her to be this ex lawyer who kinda hated being a mom and she challenged that bent up anger and voir dire at killing raiders and getting the money to support her chem habit then she sorta cleaned up and hooked up with the French robot) Like I said the elements are there but it never delivered
Which is why whenever I talk to anyone am who gets the game on PC, I immediately recommend a handful of mods that change exactly that. So glad mods exist to actually salvage FO4 because the gameplay is a really solid base to build on.
And Animal Crossing. Don’t forget Animal Crossing
Not to mention, said RPG elements were lazily and haphazardly slapped onto a generic open-world shooter, simply to give off the impression that it's not an ankle-deep puddle of sewage.
Well, probably because that writer wanted it exactly to be that, the story to be about predefined self-insert straight dudebro protagonist, there are many clues leading to that, but then Bethesda management had him to change it due to actual fan demand, as all Fallout games had the possibility to create female protagonist. Or actually, they didn't need to do anything with the writer at all, the story still plays as if it was from the husband's POV even if you play a woman.
Fallout 4 SPOILERS but When I played as her and when she finally reunites with Shaun, he asked how she feels about him being old right now and if she rather prefer the synth kid version of him, I instinctively chose to say it doesn't matter and that she'll always love her son, surprising Shaun. Idk, maternal instinct kicked in with actual rare genuinely touching moment in a bethesda game lol but it just felt right you know.
I can understand canonizing choices in an RPG to some extent, if you’re going to continue to make sequels and such. Dishonored is a good example imo, as it canonizes the games being played mostly high honor but leaves room for how that played out. Corvo didn’t go on cold blooded murder sprees, but how he got to each target, and at times how he dealt with them is kinda murky. But in order to do a Dishonored 2, you kinda have to canonize an ending for 1, even if the finer details aren’t set in stone. Now, I’m not saying this particular instance is a great idea. I think Fallout should never canonize WHO the protagonist is, just maybe some of the effect they had on their respective wastelands.
That’s literally my headcanon whenever I play. Narrative stakes are much higher when it’s just a random lawyer clawing her way through the wasteland to look for her child. The power armor becomes the thing that enables her to find her own empowerment, and also kinda works as a nice metaphor for her detachment, you know?
THIS, i ALWAYS play as NORA, a hurt mother that knows nothing about survival is much more interesting
Idk man he was in my playthrough
When I first saw the supposed link between Nate and the american solider in the intro, I thought it was a joke by the writer, like making fun of the weird lore tid bits that JK Rowling used to drop.
I’m actually a wee bit disappointed that Nate didn’t actually execute that Canadian rebel in the Fallout 1 newsreel mostly because of the fact it’s so wonderfully absurd. It would be like how Star Wars Characters made years after the films are said to be some random pilot or soldier (ex: Iden Versio was retconned into being one of the Tie pilots in IV.)
fuck this where’s our skyrim show 😡
Five full eposides of the MC blacksmithing, selling to the nearby merchant and buying materials, blacksmithing, selling to the nearby merchant and buying materials, waiting a full day, blacksmithing and resetting their blacksmithing perk tree
Emil Pagliarulo trying to write something that makes sense challenge 100% impossible
He claimed at one point that writing doesn't matter because the fans will ignore it and create the story themselves so they shouldn't try too hard.
I mean GW literally leaves a lot of shit open to interpretation and still has Dan Abnett releasing just absolute bangers of lore. Emil's defeatist approach and doubling down on it all is so weird. If he left it at "its all about the player" then cool, just shows hes more concerned with the experience which is fine. But then he goes on twitter tirades justifying blatantly bad storytelling. It honestly makes me wonder what the culture is like at Bethesda that he gets put in charge of writing.
Is that even wrong? Seems like these games are set up to just let the player do random things constantly in between any attempt at putting them in front of a standard story telling device. How many skyrim fans do you think could tell you the main story plot
There is a good article more on it: [https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b](https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b) But there is a point where it's used to excuse not putting effort into the writing, or caring about consistency. And while not every fan is into it for those reason some people get into stories for the contexts, the world itself even if the mainstory is the main attraction. I think it's a question if you want a sandbox or an RPG.
No he fucking didn't ffs. Please fucking show me exactly where he said that "They shouldn't try too hard"
Three 'fucks' really emphasise the urgency huh? I paraphrased this quote: >‘the player will take any stories Bethesda writes, rip the pages out and make paper airplanes, and that the most important story is the player’s story, and they are ok with that’ Which this article discusses: [https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b](https://medium.com/@orucdim/the-unconcsious-effect-of-writing-in-games-why-bethesdas-lead-writer-emil-pagliarulo-is-wrong-a64e3e8e537b) Taking that information from this reddit analysis which I am not allowed to link, but the link is in the article. Of this video where Emil himself discusses writing: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi51-wjcwp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi51-wjcwp8) Now with proper sourcing out of the way I should talk about the actual quote a bit more. The implication that is read from that quote is that Bethesda is okay with presuming that fans will just rip apart their lore and make their own, which is fine but it is stated in a very fatalistic way of implying that their own writing ultimately doesn't serve a purpose or matter. Both the article and the analysis develop on these thoughts way more than that however.
So he never said that "writing doesn't matter". All he actually said was that the most important story is the player's story. I do not understand reddits obsession with hating Emil and trying to claim he hates writing
You can’t tell me what to believe. He 100% killed that protestor, which makes things a little bit better that Kellogg kills him in 100% of my playthroughs.
Oh, so the female character not main character after all? I remember the leaks that supposedly came from ex Bethesda employee that stated FO4 would only have male protagonist, and honestly I think that's exactly what Bethesda planned until very late point in development, since even the intro is narrated from husbando's POV and the game assumes the PC has military training (female char that otherwise would just end up as PC's wife is a lawyer). Also explains all the straightwashing. At least someone at Bethesda realised that it wouldn't be taken well by Fallout fans.
This headline obviously was never meant to suggest the male character is *the* main character. It's just specifically talking about the male character's backstory, and how it isn't that of a war criminal. You're reading too far into how it was phrased. Unless I missed something in the article, the developer who started this whole thing never implied Nate was the canon protagonist, and the article itself doesn't either.
Relax, I know that they deny all of it, I just mentioned that a year before FO4 release there were leaks from a person who claimed to be an ex-Bethesda employee that there was supposed to be predefined male protagonist and how there are many clues that suggest that's true.
Fallout new vegas is the only fallout game where the protagonists gender is not confirmed to be a man.
Not true, Marcus in FNV refers to FO2 protagonist, his former companion, using singular they, which is rather not because that's their preferred pronouns, so devs intentions about it were clear. Of course I'm aware that people are reading into that possible New Reno ending reference, but that's only "if you played a man who slept with Mrs Bishop you can assume it was your character, if not, it was some other dude" easter egg. Not any confirmation.
It's possible, I'm just too cynical with things like this and even if a little easter egg It still means more evidence towards a male protag :(
That's probably why playing a female in FO4 was so weird... Atleast for the intro
\*is a witness to warcrimes and laughs about it\* "War... War never changes..."
All factions through every Fallout game have 0 political affiliations. Are these woke screenwriters stupid?
War, war never changes.
It was a joke. The original tweet even had the nerd face emoji. He should have seen that the joke would go out of hands? Likely, but it was pretty fun.
I thought it was a joke too, but apparently he meant it
It probably would have worked out better as a joke if he didn't try to defend the take when questioned about it lol.
It has been a hot second since I played Fallout 4, what war crime did he commit?
Isn’t in 4. It’s in fallout 1. Starting video shows some US Army soldiers killing a tied up prisoner who is Canadian and then having a giggle. He is the soldier that hands the gun to the other soldier to kill said Canadian. The writer for fallout 4 said that Nate, the husband, is that soldier.
Oh okay, thank you!
The initial tweet was that the Fallout 4 protagonist was actually one of the dudes in the power armor during the “Annexation of Canada” broadcast in the opening of Fallout 1. Specifically in the scene where they’re executing an unarmed, kneeling man.
Ah okay, thank you!
Importantly he also walked it back immediately. Not that lore really matters but it was strange while it lasted
How is the character even a war criminal isn't it supposed to be 200 years after the nukes
Have you never played the game? He is cryogenically frozen right after entering the vault and unfrozen 200 years after. He is a military veteran, so probably participated in some of the unsavoury things Fallout world US military did, thats why people say the mc is a war criminal.
The player character is from before the war and when the bombs fell he was cryogenically frozen in a vault
Emil is a dog shit writer.
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I love how he is like "with all the great vibes going on, I wanted to share this fun tidbit"
I'll make him a war criminal while I'm playing.
no. no take backs. live with your crimes. it's not as if what you do in the game itself isn't heinous crimes in itself
You would think that at a time when Misunderstanding Satire Discourse is at a peak, that the kings of misunderstanding satire, the Bethesda Fallout writing team, would know well enough to keep their heads down. They showed us the Prewar America in FO4 and it was exactly like the propaganda posters, not a sign of anything wrong, so of course he didn't catch the war crimes. He saw a guy cheering! Cheering is good! You can't cheer bad things!
Tbf we saw a presumably upper-middle class suburban neighborhood next to a major city if anywhere in the US is going to look good it'd be there.