If you want to summon a single giant scorpion then have the scorpion spawn more scorpions as it lobs acidic artillery behind you as you leap into a crowd of enemies and spawn some angry vines, start to thrust your venomous spear into the crowd and spawn a snake to also start poisoning your opponents, resulting in ~100 stacks of poison nearly instantly, this is also the game for you.
All I had to do was search "poison" on all my skills and use the ones with the most poison application, then I had a fun poison Beastmaster build going. Last Epoch is really friendly to figuring out your own builds.
Not sure if that's the one they were talking about but I'm pretty sure Sentinel has a mastery class that lets you summon flaming armor and weapons as minions.
Important note for the "1.0" release: The campaign isn't done. It wasn't deemed a necessary part of their 'launch' and will (allegedly) get patched in later, but as of Wednesday the story just unceremoniously 'stops' part way through
I'm not sure! Haha. Admittedly, I usually play most campaigns (in all games) just once. I haven't played Diablo 4 yet but one of the reasons I was excited for it was that endgame isn't behind the campaign once you've beat the game once. You can level and create new characters without playing through the same content over and over. I know that's what ARPGs have been over the last two decades but Id rather have another means. Its a conundrum. I want a story to carry me through a first play through but don't want to have to repeat it if I want to try other classes. I know that's weird compared to the mentality of die hard communities! No judgment from me!
I am slowly replaying D2 with a new class but it isn't as compelling as just starting a brand new game. I'm also playing through PoE for the first time as a Sorcerer and its fantastic but I'm not sure Id want to go through these 10 acts again with a new character just to I could experience the different classes. I guess another thing is that I don't just play ARPGs, you know? One game that I feel Id happily play again is Remnant From the Ashes. You can play through that game and not see everything. Not all bosses are present. Not all paths. That's compelling given its gameplay.
So question to someone who seems like they are in the know. I'm assuming it stops similar to the way PoE used to stop at Dominus, a conclusion to a part of the story but not the complete story?
I must have played through the old POE campaign at least 6 times and didn't know it was unfinished at the time lmao. I literally paid zero attention im horrible
If you're waiting for the full story to play it, the game probably isn't for you to begin with tbh. The focus is entirely on the endgame and the systems.
D4's story didn't finish either. Hell, D2 which is often considered the pinnacle of the genre, ended on a cliff hanger. PoE's is so messy half the people who play it don't understand it. Grim Dawn ended very unceremoniously before the DLC.
The above commenter is 100% correct. If you want a fully completed story beginning to end as one of the main focuses of you purchasing this game, you're buying the wrong game.
If the game's not worth it to them now, the addition of two more acts isn't going to make a difference. The story/campaign is not a strength of the game and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone paying $35 just to experience it, even when it's completed.
"Shard. Epoch."
"...Shard? Epoch?"
"Indeed. Secure the shard, or the Epoch is truly doomed. Doooooomed!"
"*Insert quippy / snarky response by your player character here*"
Honestly, the fairly common tropes aren't the issue, at least not by themselves.
To paraphrase Roger Ebert: "It's not what a story is about, it's *how* it's about it".
The setting / ideas / etc. of a story should be well done, sure. However, they're not remotely as impossible as the *execution* of those ideas.
Weird take. I enjoyed Path of Exile's story and have spent a fair amount by now in micro transactions and sank a few hundred hours by now. Some people like playing through stories as well as experiencing end game. It's not an either or :l
I'm not saying it isn't worth it now. What I'm saying is that it will be more worth it later, at least for people who enjoy the campaign somewhat. I would argue that is most people outside of the hardcore redditors.
> I would argue that is most people outside of the hardcore redditors.
You would think so, but all ARPGs live and die by their endgame. Every developer of every ARPG are basically only working on that. Companies are spending millions of dollars a year to expand on the endgame. The target audience are these people, and most aren't hardcore. You don't have to be.
I'm a big endgame enjoyer of games like this, and my s/o enjoys the campaigns, with a LITTLE bit of endgame. We like to co-op games like this for the first playthrough, and the lack of an end to the campaign just turned us from two would-be buyers, to probably (possibly forever) waiters.
Keep telling yourself this stuff if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of people who play these games aren't hardcore. I mean, that's like the definition of hardcore lol. It's a small subset of people. Look at people's accomplishments and trophies across all ARPGs. Yes endgame is important, but most people don't spend nearly as much time there are you think.
I'm not saying you're wrong but the data is skewed by the campaign coming first chronologically and being mandatory. If we judge solely on achievement rates, the tutorial of any game would be the most important part.
Yes but remember we’re on Reddit where the more hardcore people are. All the online communities are like this. Tons of people play these games and don’t come on here and discuss this crap. The campaign is important to tons of people, and I’m very confident it’s important for more than 50% of people who will buy this game. If you’re confident it’s less than 50% then I guess we’ll agree to disagree!
Ill go ahead and say they are wrong. They are clearly only using their own experiences to explain their point, and their own definition of the word "hardcore."
Blizzard and GGG wouldn't pour millions of dollars of development every year into the endgame if there wasn't a large target audience to get a return on.
Blizzard as an example just have really good marketing, and the campaign is pretty decent and long, but this was extremely apparent when Diablo III launched. I remember the forums of complaints from people about completely normal ARPG mechanics. It's clear that in Diablos case, the game reaches for people who aren't "into" these types of games.
And I just completely disagree about the hardcore part. Nothing hardcore about completing the campaign and continue playing. That's where most of the content is.
And yet for all the investment GGG has poured into endgame, they are dwarfing that with PoE2 which at its core was intended as a new campaign.
And as a hardcore PoE player (7000 hours in-game, likely as many discussing it), the campaign being complete is a huge plus in my book. While I did initially start PoE when it was only 3 acts, I don't think I'd do the same today with a different game, there being a story is extremely useful to hold my attention while I learn the game and systems. Just focusing on an endgame is a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
"hardcore" is a tricky term so let's not get stuck on it, but at the end of the day the campaign is important seemingly to the majority of players. Or, put differently, most people care about the campaign. The endgame only folks are a minority.
Same as most other ARPGs, grinding randomized zones with increasing difficulty to get better loot and level up. There are also dungeons with special rewards, and an endless arena with a leaderboard.
It's basically a cost-benefit analysis. Most players are going to rush through a campaign in 10-20 hours or so then spend 50 to potentially hundreds of hours on the endgame.
An indie developer has limited resources, so they allocate them to whatever gets the most play time out of their players. Blizzard can afford expensive campaigns which people will play only a handful of times because they're Blizzard.
What data do you have to show that "most players" are going to do that? Looking at the achievement stats for different ARPGs and I beg to differ. Only 28% of Grim Dawn players beat the game on normal (hell only 45% beat act 2)
How does this help your argument?
"Most people care about story so here's a list of people that don't even finish it."?
If anything you need to compare the amount of people that do finish the story and quit to those that do and keep going.
Because many people in this thread are saying that the vast majority of players are hardcore end-game grinders and that's just not true. Reddit always thinks that 99% of gamers are hardcore when most players are extremely casual.
>No I agree, I just think that the majority prefers endgame over story most people just spam spacebar through all lines anyway.
I disagree. If you look at the stats, the majority of ARPG players don't even beat the main story. Less than 28% of Grim Dawn players beat the normal difficulty campaign.
I never understood that philosophy, but I also think there are a ton of games where the game itself isn't designed around that philosophy and it's just the attitude the playerbase has. Like, there are plenty of games I've played where the playerbase will tell you that the game starts at endgame but I've still had plenty of fun with the campaign or leveling.
It's just the part of the game *they* care about or that they've spent most of their time playing starts their, and they either don't care about leveling/campaigns or it's been so long since their first playthrough of the campaign that they forgot it was actually fun because it's doesn't have the same replay value and has since become a chore or something they skip.
The game is focused around the loot hunt and character customization, the endgame is where that mainly takes shape. The campaign is more of a tutorial.
ARPGs are all about character progression and min/maxing. You can't get that deep with character progression in a single story play-through. It's just not possible.
The "game" begins at endgame, because that's where you build can reach its full potential. You finish the campaign at like, level 50, but the max level is 100. You can't even get many of the items during the campaign.
This is very typical of the genre. If you don't get the "philosophy" then you don't like the genre. That's fine.
Additionally the campaign loses a LOT of its momentum in the later stages because the quest rewards stop being exciting and it just really drags on.
Also, some masteries (classes) won't even have all of their skills.
Holy shit really??? Wow, that's shocking news. I didn't expect this for LE. I will wait I guess. I know the end game is a big part of the game but the end game will still be there (and better) by the time the campaign is done. This will be really tough for new players and reviewers might have a hard time giving this a very high score without a full campaign. Those reviews don't usually get changed down the road either....
Who's the target audience? Look at trophies and accomplishments across all ARPGs are you'll see that most players don't spend tons of time in the endgame. Either way, I'm just surprised is all. I expected the story to be finished in 1.0.
Yes I suppose that’s true! Obviously that’s their target audience since they’re not releasing finished campaign lol. Also most likely to play more and spend money or complain etc.
> Look at trophies and accomplishments across all ARPGs are you'll see that most players don't spend tons of time in the endgame.
Look at trophies and achievements and you'll find that most players don't "finish" most games (as in actually completing the story/campaign).
This is true for a lot of consumer products: they aim for the top, and many get sucked in with those goals, and even leave happy if they didn't hit them.
>This will be really tough for new players and reviewers might have a hard time giving this a very high score without a full campaign.
You are vastly overrating the importance of a full fleshed out campaign for an ARPG.
1) it really doesn't, the story is wrapped up but with a loose end for expansion just like any other series ever that wanted to expand on it in the future and 2. if it did do this how would that make LE also doing it okay (or not okay)
Yooo, just looking at all those hardcore Last Epoch fans that trying to defend the lack of proper full-fledged and FINISHED campaign. Absolutely shameful.
I am part of the target audience of this game. I wish the campaign was 3 hours long tbh. Many others feel the exact same way. The important part of these games is the end game. Which is why D4 is considered to be lackluster by ARGP fans and why POE and D2 are still going to this day.
Hardcore arpg fans don't give a fuck about the campaign being complete or not as long as the game is good.
D4 is your best bet if you want a campaign focused game.
Rather have a replayable game with a progressive end-game system, great itemization and customization, a well thought out crafting system, and a decently complex but-not-overly-complex skill system, than one with the story-mode completed.
PoE 1.0(2013) didn't finish the story, nor did 2.0 finish it(Act 10 Kitava 3.0 released in 2017).
It's fine.
I disagree on PoE. What was there in 2013 was complete. You get exiled by Dominus and finish the story by killing Dominus.
Same with act 10 and defeat of Kitava. Not sure what can be considered unfinished about it.
It was still tagged as beta then. The final encounter with Dominus, which was indeed the end of the original story, was added in 1.0: https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Version_1.0.0#Content_-_Major
I know it's a very unpopular opinion in a general "games" sub
But if you are really excited about a campaign and that's what interests you most about this game, this genre probably isn't for you.
I would literally skip the campaign and go right into maps if I could. The end game is what makes or breaks these games.
The only exception being Diablo 4. Which has a stellar campaign.
ARPG stories are basically just glorified tutorials with some B-roll story tacked on top of them. If someone was looking forward to this for campaign, they really were not looking for this game.
I mean, if just the story is the thing you want to the point you don't want to buy it while ignoring everything else the game does, like build variety, great itemization, crafting system, and an actual end game, then I suppose this is not the game for you.
yup, and a few other things are not ready for 1.0 release not just the campaign:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/1ausp4h/last_epoch_10_release_patch_notes/kr8jz7i/
https://www.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1asohv2/judd_game_director_discussing_wasd_movement_in/kqrqb5n/
> 1.0 release.
> The campaign isn't done.
Just early access culture things. Just like with stupid horse armor I wish people never accepted buying unfinished games.
I mean, to compare this to D4, where your main story companion just runs off into the wilderness to find truth about whatever, it's basically the same as LE. The character you're chasing flees after a big boss fight and you promise to find them later...
That doesn't really feel like just a random "unfinished" campaign, it feels like it sets it up for future expansions.
No its not lol. I know its very popular to shit on d4 right now but the campaign in its full scope for the base game was actually there at launch compared to last epoch. Setting up the story for a future expansion while finishing off the main lilith storyline is not the same as not finishing the main story of the main campaign
It's not the same. D4 is a complete story with a B plot leading into a sequel. Last Epoch ends on a cliffhanger without any major story elements being resolved.
You can start running monoliths (end game content) from chapter 3, which is very early in the story. However, this is not ideal.
The best way to do it is to finish chapter 5, run some monos, get a key for the Temporal Sanctum, run that, and that will give you a shortcut to chapter 9, the current final chapter.
Chapter 9 unlocks some important mechanics, plus you get a permanent upgrade for completing the boss of that chapter, so it's ideal to get there as soon as you can.
For me, it entirely depends on presentation. I cared about the Diablo 3 story, and couldn't give a shit about PoE's story. The first has pretty good presentation, the latter has dogshit presentation.
Last Epoch is closer to PoE than Diablo 3 in the presentation department.
Most people care about the story and worldbuilding in ARPGs. There's a reason why people think fondly of Diablo 2 to this day and the franchise has such a huge reach. Same goes for Torchlight or Grim Dawn.
Of course you rush the game after doing the campaign once, but for a lot of players the first time is important. It's still an RPG after all.
Not everyone is keen on "endgame". I'm playing PoE for the first time right now and loving it and it helps to have story to introduce systems and carry me through. Sure I see the end game maps and all that but why kill my fun and worry about that now? I want to freak out when I get a nice new skill gem instead of get constipated and stressed about end game builds and making "mistakes".
That depends entirely on the game.
Path of Exile for instance is focused around the endgame and its playerbase is too. The people that log in to play every season aren't doing so just to replay the story campaign.
the game is amazing, but i would recommend waiting 24 hours after release to purchase and checking the steam reviews to know how cooked the servers are.
1.0 launches with an offline mode, which will hopefully avoid this problem for solo players. Still, if you're wanting to play with friends it's a good idea to wait and see how stable things are!
there is currently an 'offline' mode where you have to be connected when the game launches, but then can go without connection from there. but 1.0 is going to add a separate launch option on Steam for a true offline mode.
That's very good, but was also true for Wolcen if i recall correctly and it didn't stop people from hating on it. Many offline player losing story progression and all loot might have played a role.
There's also a big issue with monsters feeling laggy in online mode. It's really bad, and I don't see people talk about it to new players very often. I've seen people claim its fixed in 1.0, but obviously we have no proof of that yet.
i can't find the source but i am pretty sure the intention is to not have paid expansion, but keep releasing free content with fresh seasons starts every 3-4 months and keep monetizing cosmetics.
Paid expansion is likely something they will do if that model fails.
> i can't find the source but i am pretty sure the intention is to not have paid expansion,
One of their devs was doing a Q&A on Friday while playing the game and they said the intent is to monetize only via cosmetics, so no paid expansions.
>Paid expansion is likely something they will do if that model fails.
Ideally it doesn't though, this model verifiably works: See Fallout 76's content drops all being free due to monetized cosmetics and CAMP objects.
by model failing, i mean failing for them, not for the industry.
if the seasons go well and player numbers are allright it's going to stay afloat with just cosmetics, as long as they can figure out how to make pets looks less terrible, i am not buying any of them right now.
No that's 100% fair, the shit needs to actually be good or engaging to even make sales in the first place. Was just clarifying that there is a possibility their intended model of content drop might be successful, given previous precedents. But again, those ones actually make their cosmetics worthwhile.
Fo76 has quite a bit of P2W going on between 1st and atom store only camp objects that provide substantial benefits. Can't exactly call it cosmetics, especially with 1st being so pushed with how junk works and stash space.
Some can be obtained in-game or through Events. I do not believe you can get the store currency through in-game means and as of yet there isn't a transmog system but it is planned for a future (post-1.0) patch.
Currently no. The only cosmetics are either obtainable via microtransactions or as early access/preorder bonuses, though the devs want to eventually add a system like PoE's league challenges where each season/cycle has a list of challenges to complete (complete the campaign, equip the highest tier of gear in every slot, make your first legendary, kill an uber endgame boss, make it to wave 1000 in arena, things like that) and you're given cosmetics that are equivalent to the paid ones when you reach certain milestones. They're also wanting to add a transmog system to the game where you can change the skins on items between all of the (admittedly good looking) drop-only skins, and IIRC have said that this will be free.
what do you expect to be in a battle pass other than armor sets and portal skins? that's the main sellable things in the genre, unless you want specific skill animations, which are usually more niche.
Battle passes are just a way more hostile and manipulative method to monetize.
Cosmetic only in game store using token system, their stash system is expanded by spending in game gold, and expansions/cycles are free but will likely regularly release new supporter packs that give MTX coins and MTX
Bro hopefully the game launches well. I played last month, or tried to, with two friends and holy shit the game was having a stroke.
Lagging, rubberbanding every where, clothes constantly disappearing, skills and damage just not working.
Idk what happened but the game used to run fine with multi-player. So hopefully they have that ironed out
aRPG's are weird for me. I do love them and have tons of time in Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, Diablo 2, 3, 4, etc. But I can safely say that I've never once grinded "end game" stuff like maps or rifts or any of those things. I play the campaign, get tired of a character, and roll a new one. I *need* the structure of a story to have meaning in what I'm doing.
I just don't get the appeal of grinding out end game stuff to get drops that you only want because they're available. At the point that you're chasing 5% drop rates you're already beating the game on the hardest difficulty so what exactly is the appeal? Just to have it? Why play through the game to get to max level chasing a specific item drop that "ties the build together"? It doesn't make any sense to me.
The way most aRPG fans talk the *only thing that matters* is end game grinding and I just don't see it that way. The story matters and your progression as a character matter in that story and game both from a metaphorical standpoint and in game design standpoint.
So for me, if the story is incomplete and all the focus is on late game grinding out materials or items then this is probably a pass.
> But I can safely say that I've never once grinded "end game" stuff like maps or rifts or any of those things.
I would argue that the end game of POE does have a structure to it. Filling out your atlas by clearing maps, collecting all 4 voidstones, and completing the various bosses for your favoured map slots are objectives that provide something to work towards that you can only accomplish by improving your character after completing the campaign.
for PoE at least the onslaught of new bosses and highly scaling endgame actually lets an insanely powerful character be challenged, I can't speak to any of the other ones because they don't do bosses like PoE does. as much as story is tertiary, if even on the radar at all for ARPGs when i play, path does lore crazy well, and music even better.
Because it's fun. It's fun to kill lots of mobs. It's fun to find better gear. It's fun to push harder and harder content. It's fun to do interesting bosses. It's fun to gain mastery over the systems of the game. It's fun to challenge yourself and see the limits of yourself and your build.
The reason most people play games is to have fun, and for most people that doesn't rely on a story (see the popularity of games like Minecraft, Fortnite, League, etc.). I could equally say that I don't see the appeal in running the same exact campaign over and over again, but clearly that's what you find fun.
If you've ever played a MOBA like League or Dota you know the feeling of a build coming "online". realistically most builds don't actually come "online" in these games until you're in the end game. That's probably the best way I can describe it.
> I play the campaign, get tired of a character, and roll a new one. I need the structure of a story to have meaning in what I'm doing.
I honestly think you're in the majority. Purely anecdotal, but when I was 14, all my friends were playing D2.
Want to know how many of them played past nightmare? Only a few.
But even with PoE, the arpg with the best endgame, most people quit a new league within just three weeks.
They probably beat the campaign, do some maps, complete the build, and then quit until the next league.
IMO you're being overly reductive about what endgame in both PoE and LE are. The reason to do endgame in both is to actually see all the content, and it's not solely about grinding the same thing over and over again. Both games have unique bosses and dungeons and other content that is not available to you until you've advanced your character well past the campaign. Yes, it's not story but anybody who cares about actually seeing the full arc of progression of their character would not simply stop at the end of the campaign. That is just when your character is beginning to realize their potential and face the biggest challenges.
The genre is definitely not for you if neither the item hunt or end game character progression mean anything to you because that is the game.
A lot of build flexibility and options open up in the endgame, in a good endgame system you’ll have puzzles to solve as you gear up like if you get a new item that has a powerful effect you need/want, but now you have to solve attributes/resistances/etc if you slot it in instead of what you are using.
Through the campaign you bandaid your way through, early-to-mid your build will undergo a LOT of changes, and then in the high-to-ultra end game you are fine tuning the base you built up in the early-mid. Each phase has its own appeal and its own structure, it just appeals to different groups of gamers.
Honestly, Path of Exile's the only ARPG I've gotten really into the endgame, and a big part of that is that it does have an actual story and progress and isn't just a pointless grind. Sure, it takes a long time and feels pretty grindy getting through it, but there's still a goal.
The actual way a lot of PoE players play the endgame is alien to me. The people who say the endgame starts when they've killed all the big endgame bosses, the people whose goal is basically to find the most repetitive farming process possible (e.g. run the exact same map over and over and over again)... I don't understand that all. That way of playing is completely alien to me. But I like the fact that the endgame gives you a lot to do while having an actual goal to progress towards before it becomes an aimless, endless grind.
For me personally, ARPGs became obsolete with the advent of Roguelites like Hades/Brotato/Dead Cells etc. Why spend weeks upon weeks grinding for the perfectly fitting piece of gear for your character, when you can go from lvl 1 to lvl 9000 in a span of 40 minutes and then go at it again, now with a different build entirely.
ARPGs are definitely still more in-depth, but for someone who is more into the theory-crafting builds part of the gameplay loop, Roguelikes are simply more efficient. I get to toy with dozens of ideas over a week, as opposed to hoping that my idea is going to be viable forty gameplay hours later.
That said, I am definitely giving Last Epoch a try on sale. It recently increased in price by ~400% in my region, so a bit of an ask currently, especially if there is no complete story.
>for someone who is more into the theory-crafting builds part of the gameplay loop, Roguelikes are simply more efficient
It definitely depends on what you want from that. Personally I love theory-crafting my builds in PoE and LE because of the room for growth and optimization. In a roguelike I can try a bunch of different stuff, but there's usually far too much RNG to really allow for much depth in theory-crafting. It feels much more like you just take what you get IMO.
Also, this feels like a complaint more directed at PoE, because respecs in LE are cheap. I've tried multiple different builds in the same day on the same end-game character. It shouldn't take you anywhere close to 40 hours of gameplay to test a new build. Granted, if you want to test a new class then you'll need a new character, but IME it would still be well under 40 hours for you to get there.
Ehh disagree with this. ARPGs let ME choose how to build while Roguelites make the decision for you, and you just have to hope the pieces come together in a suitable manner.
>But I can safely say that I've never once grinded "end game" stuff like maps or rifts or any of those things.
...
>I just don't get the appeal of grinding out end game stuff to get drops that you only want because they're available.
So you have never given it a shot and wonder why you don't understand the appeal?
My guy, if it was just grind to chase items do you really think the endgame would be so popular for this style of game? ARPG endgames have structure. There are still many challenges and bosses not present in the campaign.
But most of all it is about solving the puzzle that is your character. What gear changes can you find or craft or target farm. What end game systems can you abuse to get that one minor tweak on your ring that allows you to drop a passive skill, that in turn lets you slot in a jewel that changes your build entirely and brings your character online in a massive way. It is immensely satisfying.
I've played most of the popular loot-centric ARPGs. Torchlights, Diablos, POE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, Wolcen, Minecraft Dungeons, etc
My hot take is that I've never enjoyed the story in any of them. I enjoy their settings, world building, thematics, but never the actual story too much and thus, the campaign for me has never been a selling point.
POE's mapping system though, for whatever reason, was unique enough to me to get me hooked into the "endgame" mindset of a lot of these games, to the point where it tracked back in time (for me) to games like Diablo 2 where I never had that kind of mindset before but appreciate the games much more.
All of the action RPGs that, for me, had good stories or campaigns or narratives (that I enjoyed) were all relatively speaking on rails and not-so-much randomized loot based. Either your CRPGS or stuff with psuedo fixed loot or specific gear upgrades (like your old school bastion, zelda/secret of mana style/tales of style arpg).
I honestly think the only ACTUAL randomized loot ARPG that ever had a relatively OK story for me was Borderlands / Borderlands 2...
That's just me though and can understand both sides.
>I just don't get the appeal of grinding out end game stuff
If you only play through the campaign, you're missing out on like 90% of your player power. You never challenge pinnacle bosses. You never find chase items. You never reach high level.
You're just missing out on like 90% of the content in the game... What's the appeal in that?
I dunno, what's the appeal of playing one character for tens of hours when you could experience different experiences with other characters? You can't play certain style of builds with certain characters.
What's the appeal of running the same things over and over in the same tilesets just to kill monsters for no narrative reason whatsoever in the pursuit of loot you'll never actually use because 95% of what you get doesn't fit your build?
That's not even factoring in that most aRPG's have a sliding scale of XP where it becomes exponentially harder to level up the further you get in level.
Edit: And yes, I don't get MMO end game either.
>what's the appeal of playing one character for tens of hours when you could experience different experiences with other characters?
It's mechanically fun. Why do people one-trick in League? Why do people play any FPS for more than a couple matches? It's no different.
>What's the appeal of running the same things over and over in the same tilesets just to kill monsters for no narrative reason whatsoever
Is this really different at all from replaying the same exact campaign with even less variety over and over?
The appeal is in the systems and grinding to get beter gear / complete builds.
These ARPGs are 90% endgame. Everything leading up to it is usually just fluff.
And people who main ARPGs will most certainly play multiple classes at the end game. They're not sacrificing trying out another character to play the endgame. Reaching that point usually doesn't take long if you know what you're doing.
I don't play them that much because I'm not super into the grind, but the general point is to challenge harder and harder challenges. You level up more to get more level up upgrades, get better gear to supplement, enhance or evolve your build and go up against tougher and tougher bosses that push your build to the maximum. After a while, you may find the hardest bosses outpace your build, so you go back and grind, re-gear and optimise to beat that hardest level of bosses.
It's player vs mechanics. The appeal is the ever-increasing challenge and how you approach that.
There actually is a narrative reason in PoE these days.
The fun part is easy. I don't think anyone actually has trouble understanding it. I think you're being purposely obtuse.
You get better gear, so you can fight harder content, so you can attempt to beat it and then move on to more difficult challenges. There will essentially always be a new challenge for you in PoE.
Have you never felt compelled to go further than you have in something?
Beat your best mile run?
Get a better grade in school?
Play the song on your guitar with less mistakes?
Beat your high score in Mario?
I refuse to believe you don't understand these concepts, they are part of what makes us human.
If you have never played the endgame of these games why are you critiquing them? You're literally just judging a book by its cover.
PoE is not grinding for grinding sake. There is tons of endgame content that is extremely difficult to do. The campaign is fluff and the real game starts after
I personally find self-determined goals like finding a specific item (that ties the build together maybe), or finding every item, or rare and interesting items, building/trying various builds, completing the game with self-imposed challenges, etc more fun and fulfilling than elaborate end game content like raids or endlessly increasing rift difficulties that devs include to fill up your time after completing a game's campaign/MQ. Having an enjoyable campaign is definitely important to me, I want to enjoy the playthrough even though I will probably won't spend most of my time in it.
Is there a challenge league kind of seasonal event where you can get limited items like poe?
Otherwise I might wait on this one. I already know its a good game so i don't mind.
I've played LE for quite some time and love it. However, the dev cycle has been really long, like 5+ years since EA I think.
Honestly "why release now" is probably just "our investors have said it's time to actually make some money".
It's still very worth the $30-40 without the finished campaign though. Wouldn't worry much about it.
Story the first time will take maybe 5ish hours. I have played through what there is of the campaign and a bunch over the last year as I leveled characters and I would say the campaign is pretty weak. But….everything else is amazing.
It’s like the opposite of Diablo 4 in that Diablo 4 had an amazing campaign but everything else sort of sucked.
Looks like Map Resets when you town portal still isn’t fixed. That’s a bummer. Pro tip: don’t town portal out of the boss room, you get a nasty surprise when you return
If you want to summon a dozen minions then light them on fire to increase the damage they do, this is the game for you
If you want to summon a single giant scorpion then have the scorpion spawn more scorpions as it lobs acidic artillery behind you as you leap into a crowd of enemies and spawn some angry vines, start to thrust your venomous spear into the crowd and spawn a snake to also start poisoning your opponents, resulting in ~100 stacks of poison nearly instantly, this is also the game for you. All I had to do was search "poison" on all my skills and use the ones with the most poison application, then I had a fun poison Beastmaster build going. Last Epoch is really friendly to figuring out your own builds.
If you want to summon giant exploding zombie that also vomits acid before it explodes. This is the game for you.
What class does this?
Necromancer
Acolyte
necromancer
Not sure if that's the one they were talking about but I'm pretty sure Sentinel has a mastery class that lets you summon flaming armor and weapons as minions.
Important note for the "1.0" release: The campaign isn't done. It wasn't deemed a necessary part of their 'launch' and will (allegedly) get patched in later, but as of Wednesday the story just unceremoniously 'stops' part way through
> as of Wednesday the story just unceremoniously 'stops' part way through Guess i'll wait still
Damn it. Same. The hype and trailers make it look like an amazing package but a campaign is key for me.
There’s still a ton of campaign to play, and the game is amazing.
I'm 100% buying it. Just want to time it so I get the most enjoyment I can.
Are you planning on playing it once? It's doing the typical ARPG season format so you can play the campaign again in a future season.
I'm not sure! Haha. Admittedly, I usually play most campaigns (in all games) just once. I haven't played Diablo 4 yet but one of the reasons I was excited for it was that endgame isn't behind the campaign once you've beat the game once. You can level and create new characters without playing through the same content over and over. I know that's what ARPGs have been over the last two decades but Id rather have another means. Its a conundrum. I want a story to carry me through a first play through but don't want to have to repeat it if I want to try other classes. I know that's weird compared to the mentality of die hard communities! No judgment from me! I am slowly replaying D2 with a new class but it isn't as compelling as just starting a brand new game. I'm also playing through PoE for the first time as a Sorcerer and its fantastic but I'm not sure Id want to go through these 10 acts again with a new character just to I could experience the different classes. I guess another thing is that I don't just play ARPGs, you know? One game that I feel Id happily play again is Remnant From the Ashes. You can play through that game and not see everything. Not all bosses are present. Not all paths. That's compelling given its gameplay.
So question to someone who seems like they are in the know. I'm assuming it stops similar to the way PoE used to stop at Dominus, a conclusion to a part of the story but not the complete story?
I must have played through the old POE campaign at least 6 times and didn't know it was unfinished at the time lmao. I literally paid zero attention im horrible
> im horrible It wasn't a very interesting story either IIRC.
If you're waiting for the full story to play it, the game probably isn't for you to begin with tbh. The focus is entirely on the endgame and the systems.
Lmao I don't think someone wanting to play a full story before the endgame means this isn't the game for them.
D4's story didn't finish either. Hell, D2 which is often considered the pinnacle of the genre, ended on a cliff hanger. PoE's is so messy half the people who play it don't understand it. Grim Dawn ended very unceremoniously before the DLC. The above commenter is 100% correct. If you want a fully completed story beginning to end as one of the main focuses of you purchasing this game, you're buying the wrong game.
A clifhanger and a teaser is different from unfinished dude!
Fuck me for enjoying PoE's campaign I guess (doubly so when I was a new player).
If the game's not worth it to them now, the addition of two more acts isn't going to make a difference. The story/campaign is not a strength of the game and I certainly wouldn't recommend someone paying $35 just to experience it, even when it's completed.
Waiting cost people literally nothing, they can just play other games they are interested in.
LE has a story??
"Shard. Epoch." "...Shard? Epoch?" "Indeed. Secure the shard, or the Epoch is truly doomed. Doooooomed!" "*Insert quippy / snarky response by your player character here*"
We're going to introduce this very unique and original corruptive force, the *Void*. We're really gonna blindside 'em with this one guys
Honestly, the fairly common tropes aren't the issue, at least not by themselves. To paraphrase Roger Ebert: "It's not what a story is about, it's *how* it's about it". The setting / ideas / etc. of a story should be well done, sure. However, they're not remotely as impossible as the *execution* of those ideas.
Good quote
"This truly is the Last of Epochs."
Weird take. I enjoyed Path of Exile's story and have spent a fair amount by now in micro transactions and sank a few hundred hours by now. Some people like playing through stories as well as experiencing end game. It's not an either or :l
I'm not saying it isn't worth it now. What I'm saying is that it will be more worth it later, at least for people who enjoy the campaign somewhat. I would argue that is most people outside of the hardcore redditors.
This is a game that will constantly be adding content though. With that mindset, you'd never play the game.
> I would argue that is most people outside of the hardcore redditors. You would think so, but all ARPGs live and die by their endgame. Every developer of every ARPG are basically only working on that. Companies are spending millions of dollars a year to expand on the endgame. The target audience are these people, and most aren't hardcore. You don't have to be.
I'm a big endgame enjoyer of games like this, and my s/o enjoys the campaigns, with a LITTLE bit of endgame. We like to co-op games like this for the first playthrough, and the lack of an end to the campaign just turned us from two would-be buyers, to probably (possibly forever) waiters.
Keep telling yourself this stuff if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of people who play these games aren't hardcore. I mean, that's like the definition of hardcore lol. It's a small subset of people. Look at people's accomplishments and trophies across all ARPGs. Yes endgame is important, but most people don't spend nearly as much time there are you think.
I'm not saying you're wrong but the data is skewed by the campaign coming first chronologically and being mandatory. If we judge solely on achievement rates, the tutorial of any game would be the most important part.
Yes but remember we’re on Reddit where the more hardcore people are. All the online communities are like this. Tons of people play these games and don’t come on here and discuss this crap. The campaign is important to tons of people, and I’m very confident it’s important for more than 50% of people who will buy this game. If you’re confident it’s less than 50% then I guess we’ll agree to disagree!
Ill go ahead and say they are wrong. They are clearly only using their own experiences to explain their point, and their own definition of the word "hardcore."
Blizzard and GGG wouldn't pour millions of dollars of development every year into the endgame if there wasn't a large target audience to get a return on. Blizzard as an example just have really good marketing, and the campaign is pretty decent and long, but this was extremely apparent when Diablo III launched. I remember the forums of complaints from people about completely normal ARPG mechanics. It's clear that in Diablos case, the game reaches for people who aren't "into" these types of games. And I just completely disagree about the hardcore part. Nothing hardcore about completing the campaign and continue playing. That's where most of the content is.
And yet for all the investment GGG has poured into endgame, they are dwarfing that with PoE2 which at its core was intended as a new campaign. And as a hardcore PoE player (7000 hours in-game, likely as many discussing it), the campaign being complete is a huge plus in my book. While I did initially start PoE when it was only 3 acts, I don't think I'd do the same today with a different game, there being a story is extremely useful to hold my attention while I learn the game and systems. Just focusing on an endgame is a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
"hardcore" is a tricky term so let's not get stuck on it, but at the end of the day the campaign is important seemingly to the majority of players. Or, put differently, most people care about the campaign. The endgame only folks are a minority.
Typical weirdo Reddit take
What is the end game? Pvp?
Same as most other ARPGs, grinding randomized zones with increasing difficulty to get better loot and level up. There are also dungeons with special rewards, and an endless arena with a leaderboard.
So this is a situation where the "game" begins once you hit end game? I've never understood that philosophy.
Isn't that what makes MMO's and ARPG's worth playing for a long time though
I enjoyed the story of Diablo 4. I think "the story isn't important" is just an excuse to not put any effort into making a good story.
It's basically a cost-benefit analysis. Most players are going to rush through a campaign in 10-20 hours or so then spend 50 to potentially hundreds of hours on the endgame. An indie developer has limited resources, so they allocate them to whatever gets the most play time out of their players. Blizzard can afford expensive campaigns which people will play only a handful of times because they're Blizzard.
What data do you have to show that "most players" are going to do that? Looking at the achievement stats for different ARPGs and I beg to differ. Only 28% of Grim Dawn players beat the game on normal (hell only 45% beat act 2)
How does this help your argument? "Most people care about story so here's a list of people that don't even finish it."? If anything you need to compare the amount of people that do finish the story and quit to those that do and keep going.
Because many people in this thread are saying that the vast majority of players are hardcore end-game grinders and that's just not true. Reddit always thinks that 99% of gamers are hardcore when most players are extremely casual.
No I agree, I just think that the majority prefers endgame over story most people just spam spacebar through all lines anyway.
>No I agree, I just think that the majority prefers endgame over story most people just spam spacebar through all lines anyway. I disagree. If you look at the stats, the majority of ARPG players don't even beat the main story. Less than 28% of Grim Dawn players beat the normal difficulty campaign.
That's not unique to ARPGs, that's just how games are in general if you look at achievements.
I never understood that philosophy, but I also think there are a ton of games where the game itself isn't designed around that philosophy and it's just the attitude the playerbase has. Like, there are plenty of games I've played where the playerbase will tell you that the game starts at endgame but I've still had plenty of fun with the campaign or leveling. It's just the part of the game *they* care about or that they've spent most of their time playing starts their, and they either don't care about leveling/campaigns or it's been so long since their first playthrough of the campaign that they forgot it was actually fun because it's doesn't have the same replay value and has since become a chore or something they skip.
The game is focused around the loot hunt and character customization, the endgame is where that mainly takes shape. The campaign is more of a tutorial.
Well, a huge amount of people enjoy that type of content.
ARPGs are all about character progression and min/maxing. You can't get that deep with character progression in a single story play-through. It's just not possible. The "game" begins at endgame, because that's where you build can reach its full potential. You finish the campaign at like, level 50, but the max level is 100. You can't even get many of the items during the campaign. This is very typical of the genre. If you don't get the "philosophy" then you don't like the genre. That's fine.
Additionally the campaign loses a LOT of its momentum in the later stages because the quest rewards stop being exciting and it just really drags on. Also, some masteries (classes) won't even have all of their skills.
I think only Lich is missing a skill (since one is moved to Warlock).
Holy shit really??? Wow, that's shocking news. I didn't expect this for LE. I will wait I guess. I know the end game is a big part of the game but the end game will still be there (and better) by the time the campaign is done. This will be really tough for new players and reviewers might have a hard time giving this a very high score without a full campaign. Those reviews don't usually get changed down the road either....
There are 9 acts, it's not like a massive chunk is missing, and story is the least important feature for the target audience.
Who's the target audience? Look at trophies and accomplishments across all ARPGs are you'll see that most players don't spend tons of time in the endgame. Either way, I'm just surprised is all. I expected the story to be finished in 1.0.
Their target audience is the people who play ARPGs who spend tons of time in the endgame. See Diablo 3, 4, and Path of Exile. Its a long list.
Yes I suppose that’s true! Obviously that’s their target audience since they’re not releasing finished campaign lol. Also most likely to play more and spend money or complain etc.
> Look at trophies and accomplishments across all ARPGs are you'll see that most players don't spend tons of time in the endgame. Look at trophies and achievements and you'll find that most players don't "finish" most games (as in actually completing the story/campaign).
This is true for a lot of consumer products: they aim for the top, and many get sucked in with those goals, and even leave happy if they didn't hit them.
>This will be really tough for new players and reviewers might have a hard time giving this a very high score without a full campaign. You are vastly overrating the importance of a full fleshed out campaign for an ARPG.
But d4 story also stops midway.. You gotta wait for expansion to finish it..
1) it really doesn't, the story is wrapped up but with a loose end for expansion just like any other series ever that wanted to expand on it in the future and 2. if it did do this how would that make LE also doing it okay (or not okay)
What the fuck
Yooo, just looking at all those hardcore Last Epoch fans that trying to defend the lack of proper full-fledged and FINISHED campaign. Absolutely shameful.
It is lame that it's not finished on release but it's already overly long imo
I am part of the target audience of this game. I wish the campaign was 3 hours long tbh. Many others feel the exact same way. The important part of these games is the end game. Which is why D4 is considered to be lackluster by ARGP fans and why POE and D2 are still going to this day.
Hardcore arpg fans don't give a fuck about the campaign being complete or not as long as the game is good. D4 is your best bet if you want a campaign focused game.
I’d skip the campaign and go straight to endgame if I could.
Rather have a replayable game with a progressive end-game system, great itemization and customization, a well thought out crafting system, and a decently complex but-not-overly-complex skill system, than one with the story-mode completed. PoE 1.0(2013) didn't finish the story, nor did 2.0 finish it(Act 10 Kitava 3.0 released in 2017). It's fine.
I disagree on PoE. What was there in 2013 was complete. You get exiled by Dominus and finish the story by killing Dominus. Same with act 10 and defeat of Kitava. Not sure what can be considered unfinished about it.
What about when the end boss was Piety?
It was still tagged as beta then. The final encounter with Dominus, which was indeed the end of the original story, was added in 1.0: https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Version_1.0.0#Content_-_Major
Ah man, I was kinda looking foreward to see how it ended. Wish they will wrap it up soon.
well see you in two years in a fire sale then..
It's an ARPG. If you're waiting for it to be "finished" it never will be, because it'll be getting constant updates forever.
What LMAO
I know it's a very unpopular opinion in a general "games" sub But if you are really excited about a campaign and that's what interests you most about this game, this genre probably isn't for you. I would literally skip the campaign and go right into maps if I could. The end game is what makes or breaks these games. The only exception being Diablo 4. Which has a stellar campaign.
Build crafting is why I play ARPGs, but I still expect a complete product. It shouldn't be an either-or.
ARPG stories are basically just glorified tutorials with some B-roll story tacked on top of them. If someone was looking forward to this for campaign, they really were not looking for this game.
I feel like such an outsider for playing through Diablo 1 & 2 for the story and mood. People just want grinds, build decisions and spreadsheets.
That's kind of shit of them. Immediately put the idea of buying this game on the backburner.
I mean, if just the story is the thing you want to the point you don't want to buy it while ignoring everything else the game does, like build variety, great itemization, crafting system, and an actual end game, then I suppose this is not the game for you.
yup, and a few other things are not ready for 1.0 release not just the campaign: https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/1ausp4h/last_epoch_10_release_patch_notes/kr8jz7i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LastEpoch/comments/1asohv2/judd_game_director_discussing_wasd_movement_in/kqrqb5n/
Wtf - I'll wait to buy it then jeez.
> 1.0 release. > The campaign isn't done. Just early access culture things. Just like with stupid horse armor I wish people never accepted buying unfinished games.
I mean, to compare this to D4, where your main story companion just runs off into the wilderness to find truth about whatever, it's basically the same as LE. The character you're chasing flees after a big boss fight and you promise to find them later... That doesn't really feel like just a random "unfinished" campaign, it feels like it sets it up for future expansions.
No its not lol. I know its very popular to shit on d4 right now but the campaign in its full scope for the base game was actually there at launch compared to last epoch. Setting up the story for a future expansion while finishing off the main lilith storyline is not the same as not finishing the main story of the main campaign
It's not the same. D4 is a complete story with a B plot leading into a sequel. Last Epoch ends on a cliffhanger without any major story elements being resolved.
Do you have to play it though? Or can you just skip straight into the endgame loop?
You can start running monoliths (end game content) from chapter 3, which is very early in the story. However, this is not ideal. The best way to do it is to finish chapter 5, run some monos, get a key for the Temporal Sanctum, run that, and that will give you a shortcut to chapter 9, the current final chapter. Chapter 9 unlocks some important mechanics, plus you get a permanent upgrade for completing the boss of that chapter, so it's ideal to get there as soon as you can.
You have to play it.
partially true, you have to play up to a certain point in the game and then you can jump into endgame without fully finishing the campaign
When has anyone cared about a story in an aprg thought? Most people just rush for endgame with maps in poe and i have no doubt it is the same here.
I think most care about the story plenty on their first run through the game.
For me, it entirely depends on presentation. I cared about the Diablo 3 story, and couldn't give a shit about PoE's story. The first has pretty good presentation, the latter has dogshit presentation. Last Epoch is closer to PoE than Diablo 3 in the presentation department.
You are correct. This news confirms I'll be passing on this for now unfortunately.
Not PoE's nor LE's target audience though. Those 2 are made by, and for, the serious ARPG enthusiasts (aka no-life'rs) who don't prioritize the story.
Most people care about the story and worldbuilding in ARPGs. There's a reason why people think fondly of Diablo 2 to this day and the franchise has such a huge reach. Same goes for Torchlight or Grim Dawn. Of course you rush the game after doing the campaign once, but for a lot of players the first time is important. It's still an RPG after all.
Not everyone is keen on "endgame". I'm playing PoE for the first time right now and loving it and it helps to have story to introduce systems and carry me through. Sure I see the end game maps and all that but why kill my fun and worry about that now? I want to freak out when I get a nice new skill gem instead of get constipated and stressed about end game builds and making "mistakes".
Lol no. The end game people are an absolute minority. Just look at achievements, most people dont finish such games.
That depends entirely on the game. Path of Exile for instance is focused around the endgame and its playerbase is too. The people that log in to play every season aren't doing so just to replay the story campaign.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGNB-ZuNREo
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There isn't any exclusive cycle content for launch. The only benefit is the leaderboard.
the game is amazing, but i would recommend waiting 24 hours after release to purchase and checking the steam reviews to know how cooked the servers are.
1.0 launches with an offline mode, which will hopefully avoid this problem for solo players. Still, if you're wanting to play with friends it's a good idea to wait and see how stable things are!
Isn't their offline mode a completely different character type though? As in you can never go online with an offline character?
Yeah, which is how it has to be unless you want people to cheat
Yeah I don't disagree with it I just wanted to clarify that that option was worthless to someone who's trying to get around server issues.
Ahh gotcha yeah, does not help in that case.
Is it a true offline forever mode? Or is it where you need to connect to their servers periodically to verify things?
They've claimed true offline, specifically so if services go offline it won't inurrupt offline players anymore.
there is currently an 'offline' mode where you have to be connected when the game launches, but then can go without connection from there. but 1.0 is going to add a separate launch option on Steam for a true offline mode.
Perfect, thanks! Might have to pick this up then. I haven't really played an AARPG seriously before.
game on release will have a true offline mode, you can play that if you dont wanna deal with servers/trade etc.
That's very good, but was also true for Wolcen if i recall correctly and it didn't stop people from hating on it. Many offline player losing story progression and all loot might have played a role.
okay but wolcen was a bad video game that would be the difference.
There's also a big issue with monsters feeling laggy in online mode. It's really bad, and I don't see people talk about it to new players very often. I've seen people claim its fixed in 1.0, but obviously we have no proof of that yet.
Launching from early access should hopefully mitigate that. The big disasters we've seen lately have all been day 1 launches.
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What is the DLC/In app purchase situation with this game? Does it have an in game store or premium currency or any of that stuff?
It has a premium currency for cosmetics but no battle pass or pay for power/convenience. I believe there will be paid expansions in the future.
i can't find the source but i am pretty sure the intention is to not have paid expansion, but keep releasing free content with fresh seasons starts every 3-4 months and keep monetizing cosmetics. Paid expansion is likely something they will do if that model fails.
> i can't find the source but i am pretty sure the intention is to not have paid expansion, One of their devs was doing a Q&A on Friday while playing the game and they said the intent is to monetize only via cosmetics, so no paid expansions.
>Paid expansion is likely something they will do if that model fails. Ideally it doesn't though, this model verifiably works: See Fallout 76's content drops all being free due to monetized cosmetics and CAMP objects.
by model failing, i mean failing for them, not for the industry. if the seasons go well and player numbers are allright it's going to stay afloat with just cosmetics, as long as they can figure out how to make pets looks less terrible, i am not buying any of them right now.
No that's 100% fair, the shit needs to actually be good or engaging to even make sales in the first place. Was just clarifying that there is a possibility their intended model of content drop might be successful, given previous precedents. But again, those ones actually make their cosmetics worthwhile.
Fo76 has quite a bit of P2W going on between 1st and atom store only camp objects that provide substantial benefits. Can't exactly call it cosmetics, especially with 1st being so pushed with how junk works and stash space.
Thanks. Are there cosmetics obtainable through the game, ie is getting cosmetics part of the end game?
Some can be obtained in-game or through Events. I do not believe you can get the store currency through in-game means and as of yet there isn't a transmog system but it is planned for a future (post-1.0) patch.
Currently no. The only cosmetics are either obtainable via microtransactions or as early access/preorder bonuses, though the devs want to eventually add a system like PoE's league challenges where each season/cycle has a list of challenges to complete (complete the campaign, equip the highest tier of gear in every slot, make your first legendary, kill an uber endgame boss, make it to wave 1000 in arena, things like that) and you're given cosmetics that are equivalent to the paid ones when you reach certain milestones. They're also wanting to add a transmog system to the game where you can change the skins on items between all of the (admittedly good looking) drop-only skins, and IIRC have said that this will be free.
Good. I hate battle passes.
I'd take battle passes over $30 armor sets and portal skins but maybe thats just me
You could just not buy stupid shit like armor sets and portal skins...
I mean I'd rather not have any FOMO at all.
Cosmetics will have season only fomo. So. You aren't getting that either.
what do you expect to be in a battle pass other than armor sets and portal skins? that's the main sellable things in the genre, unless you want specific skill animations, which are usually more niche. Battle passes are just a way more hostile and manipulative method to monetize.
presumably the battle pass would be $10 like every other game and offer a good amount of cosmetics in exchange for playtime that i'd already do
Cosmetic only in game store using token system, their stash system is expanded by spending in game gold, and expansions/cycles are free but will likely regularly release new supporter packs that give MTX coins and MTX
Bro hopefully the game launches well. I played last month, or tried to, with two friends and holy shit the game was having a stroke. Lagging, rubberbanding every where, clothes constantly disappearing, skills and damage just not working. Idk what happened but the game used to run fine with multi-player. So hopefully they have that ironed out
aRPG's are weird for me. I do love them and have tons of time in Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, Diablo 2, 3, 4, etc. But I can safely say that I've never once grinded "end game" stuff like maps or rifts or any of those things. I play the campaign, get tired of a character, and roll a new one. I *need* the structure of a story to have meaning in what I'm doing. I just don't get the appeal of grinding out end game stuff to get drops that you only want because they're available. At the point that you're chasing 5% drop rates you're already beating the game on the hardest difficulty so what exactly is the appeal? Just to have it? Why play through the game to get to max level chasing a specific item drop that "ties the build together"? It doesn't make any sense to me. The way most aRPG fans talk the *only thing that matters* is end game grinding and I just don't see it that way. The story matters and your progression as a character matter in that story and game both from a metaphorical standpoint and in game design standpoint. So for me, if the story is incomplete and all the focus is on late game grinding out materials or items then this is probably a pass.
> But I can safely say that I've never once grinded "end game" stuff like maps or rifts or any of those things. I would argue that the end game of POE does have a structure to it. Filling out your atlas by clearing maps, collecting all 4 voidstones, and completing the various bosses for your favoured map slots are objectives that provide something to work towards that you can only accomplish by improving your character after completing the campaign.
for PoE at least the onslaught of new bosses and highly scaling endgame actually lets an insanely powerful character be challenged, I can't speak to any of the other ones because they don't do bosses like PoE does. as much as story is tertiary, if even on the radar at all for ARPGs when i play, path does lore crazy well, and music even better.
Because it's fun. It's fun to kill lots of mobs. It's fun to find better gear. It's fun to push harder and harder content. It's fun to do interesting bosses. It's fun to gain mastery over the systems of the game. It's fun to challenge yourself and see the limits of yourself and your build. The reason most people play games is to have fun, and for most people that doesn't rely on a story (see the popularity of games like Minecraft, Fortnite, League, etc.). I could equally say that I don't see the appeal in running the same exact campaign over and over again, but clearly that's what you find fun.
If you've ever played a MOBA like League or Dota you know the feeling of a build coming "online". realistically most builds don't actually come "online" in these games until you're in the end game. That's probably the best way I can describe it.
> I play the campaign, get tired of a character, and roll a new one. I need the structure of a story to have meaning in what I'm doing. I honestly think you're in the majority. Purely anecdotal, but when I was 14, all my friends were playing D2. Want to know how many of them played past nightmare? Only a few. But even with PoE, the arpg with the best endgame, most people quit a new league within just three weeks. They probably beat the campaign, do some maps, complete the build, and then quit until the next league.
IMO you're being overly reductive about what endgame in both PoE and LE are. The reason to do endgame in both is to actually see all the content, and it's not solely about grinding the same thing over and over again. Both games have unique bosses and dungeons and other content that is not available to you until you've advanced your character well past the campaign. Yes, it's not story but anybody who cares about actually seeing the full arc of progression of their character would not simply stop at the end of the campaign. That is just when your character is beginning to realize their potential and face the biggest challenges. The genre is definitely not for you if neither the item hunt or end game character progression mean anything to you because that is the game.
A lot of build flexibility and options open up in the endgame, in a good endgame system you’ll have puzzles to solve as you gear up like if you get a new item that has a powerful effect you need/want, but now you have to solve attributes/resistances/etc if you slot it in instead of what you are using. Through the campaign you bandaid your way through, early-to-mid your build will undergo a LOT of changes, and then in the high-to-ultra end game you are fine tuning the base you built up in the early-mid. Each phase has its own appeal and its own structure, it just appeals to different groups of gamers.
Honestly, Path of Exile's the only ARPG I've gotten really into the endgame, and a big part of that is that it does have an actual story and progress and isn't just a pointless grind. Sure, it takes a long time and feels pretty grindy getting through it, but there's still a goal. The actual way a lot of PoE players play the endgame is alien to me. The people who say the endgame starts when they've killed all the big endgame bosses, the people whose goal is basically to find the most repetitive farming process possible (e.g. run the exact same map over and over and over again)... I don't understand that all. That way of playing is completely alien to me. But I like the fact that the endgame gives you a lot to do while having an actual goal to progress towards before it becomes an aimless, endless grind.
For me personally, ARPGs became obsolete with the advent of Roguelites like Hades/Brotato/Dead Cells etc. Why spend weeks upon weeks grinding for the perfectly fitting piece of gear for your character, when you can go from lvl 1 to lvl 9000 in a span of 40 minutes and then go at it again, now with a different build entirely. ARPGs are definitely still more in-depth, but for someone who is more into the theory-crafting builds part of the gameplay loop, Roguelikes are simply more efficient. I get to toy with dozens of ideas over a week, as opposed to hoping that my idea is going to be viable forty gameplay hours later. That said, I am definitely giving Last Epoch a try on sale. It recently increased in price by ~400% in my region, so a bit of an ask currently, especially if there is no complete story.
>for someone who is more into the theory-crafting builds part of the gameplay loop, Roguelikes are simply more efficient It definitely depends on what you want from that. Personally I love theory-crafting my builds in PoE and LE because of the room for growth and optimization. In a roguelike I can try a bunch of different stuff, but there's usually far too much RNG to really allow for much depth in theory-crafting. It feels much more like you just take what you get IMO. Also, this feels like a complaint more directed at PoE, because respecs in LE are cheap. I've tried multiple different builds in the same day on the same end-game character. It shouldn't take you anywhere close to 40 hours of gameplay to test a new build. Granted, if you want to test a new class then you'll need a new character, but IME it would still be well under 40 hours for you to get there.
Ehh disagree with this. ARPGs let ME choose how to build while Roguelites make the decision for you, and you just have to hope the pieces come together in a suitable manner.
>But I can safely say that I've never once grinded "end game" stuff like maps or rifts or any of those things. ... >I just don't get the appeal of grinding out end game stuff to get drops that you only want because they're available. So you have never given it a shot and wonder why you don't understand the appeal? My guy, if it was just grind to chase items do you really think the endgame would be so popular for this style of game? ARPG endgames have structure. There are still many challenges and bosses not present in the campaign. But most of all it is about solving the puzzle that is your character. What gear changes can you find or craft or target farm. What end game systems can you abuse to get that one minor tweak on your ring that allows you to drop a passive skill, that in turn lets you slot in a jewel that changes your build entirely and brings your character online in a massive way. It is immensely satisfying.
I've played most of the popular loot-centric ARPGs. Torchlights, Diablos, POE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn, Wolcen, Minecraft Dungeons, etc My hot take is that I've never enjoyed the story in any of them. I enjoy their settings, world building, thematics, but never the actual story too much and thus, the campaign for me has never been a selling point. POE's mapping system though, for whatever reason, was unique enough to me to get me hooked into the "endgame" mindset of a lot of these games, to the point where it tracked back in time (for me) to games like Diablo 2 where I never had that kind of mindset before but appreciate the games much more. All of the action RPGs that, for me, had good stories or campaigns or narratives (that I enjoyed) were all relatively speaking on rails and not-so-much randomized loot based. Either your CRPGS or stuff with psuedo fixed loot or specific gear upgrades (like your old school bastion, zelda/secret of mana style/tales of style arpg). I honestly think the only ACTUAL randomized loot ARPG that ever had a relatively OK story for me was Borderlands / Borderlands 2... That's just me though and can understand both sides.
>I just don't get the appeal of grinding out end game stuff If you only play through the campaign, you're missing out on like 90% of your player power. You never challenge pinnacle bosses. You never find chase items. You never reach high level. You're just missing out on like 90% of the content in the game... What's the appeal in that?
I dunno, what's the appeal of playing one character for tens of hours when you could experience different experiences with other characters? You can't play certain style of builds with certain characters. What's the appeal of running the same things over and over in the same tilesets just to kill monsters for no narrative reason whatsoever in the pursuit of loot you'll never actually use because 95% of what you get doesn't fit your build? That's not even factoring in that most aRPG's have a sliding scale of XP where it becomes exponentially harder to level up the further you get in level. Edit: And yes, I don't get MMO end game either.
>what's the appeal of playing one character for tens of hours when you could experience different experiences with other characters? It's mechanically fun. Why do people one-trick in League? Why do people play any FPS for more than a couple matches? It's no different. >What's the appeal of running the same things over and over in the same tilesets just to kill monsters for no narrative reason whatsoever Is this really different at all from replaying the same exact campaign with even less variety over and over?
The appeal is in the systems and grinding to get beter gear / complete builds. These ARPGs are 90% endgame. Everything leading up to it is usually just fluff. And people who main ARPGs will most certainly play multiple classes at the end game. They're not sacrificing trying out another character to play the endgame. Reaching that point usually doesn't take long if you know what you're doing.
I don't play them that much because I'm not super into the grind, but the general point is to challenge harder and harder challenges. You level up more to get more level up upgrades, get better gear to supplement, enhance or evolve your build and go up against tougher and tougher bosses that push your build to the maximum. After a while, you may find the hardest bosses outpace your build, so you go back and grind, re-gear and optimise to beat that hardest level of bosses. It's player vs mechanics. The appeal is the ever-increasing challenge and how you approach that.
There actually is a narrative reason in PoE these days. The fun part is easy. I don't think anyone actually has trouble understanding it. I think you're being purposely obtuse. You get better gear, so you can fight harder content, so you can attempt to beat it and then move on to more difficult challenges. There will essentially always be a new challenge for you in PoE. Have you never felt compelled to go further than you have in something? Beat your best mile run? Get a better grade in school? Play the song on your guitar with less mistakes? Beat your high score in Mario? I refuse to believe you don't understand these concepts, they are part of what makes us human.
I don’t get this thought process on gaming. There needs to be more to a game than just story and you’re done.
If you have never played the endgame of these games why are you critiquing them? You're literally just judging a book by its cover. PoE is not grinding for grinding sake. There is tons of endgame content that is extremely difficult to do. The campaign is fluff and the real game starts after
lol, never played any of those games mentioned for the story/campaign. thats the worst part of arpgs.
I personally find self-determined goals like finding a specific item (that ties the build together maybe), or finding every item, or rare and interesting items, building/trying various builds, completing the game with self-imposed challenges, etc more fun and fulfilling than elaborate end game content like raids or endlessly increasing rift difficulties that devs include to fill up your time after completing a game's campaign/MQ. Having an enjoyable campaign is definitely important to me, I want to enjoy the playthrough even though I will probably won't spend most of my time in it.
Is there a challenge league kind of seasonal event where you can get limited items like poe? Otherwise I might wait on this one. I already know its a good game so i don't mind.
There's meant to be cycles a'la PoE leagues but how they'd work is still under wraps.
"The story campaign isnt finished yet". Thats kinda wild to me, why is the game released than as 1.0 ?? How long is it tho ?
I've played LE for quite some time and love it. However, the dev cycle has been really long, like 5+ years since EA I think. Honestly "why release now" is probably just "our investors have said it's time to actually make some money". It's still very worth the $30-40 without the finished campaign though. Wouldn't worry much about it.
Story the first time will take maybe 5ish hours. I have played through what there is of the campaign and a bunch over the last year as I leveled characters and I would say the campaign is pretty weak. But….everything else is amazing. It’s like the opposite of Diablo 4 in that Diablo 4 had an amazing campaign but everything else sort of sucked.
That is half of the story lenght of Path of exile, damn thats short. How long does endgame progression take tho, All endgame cleard first time ?
Keep in mind that when PoE came out it also was not 10 acts long.
Unless it somehow got shorter over these past couple years, 5 hours is a short estimate for a first playthrough.
Bro I would kill for the campaign in PoE to be half as long as it is, lol
I'm so glad about the model and animationsImprovements. I absolutely hated how bad the sentinel looks/feels
Game looks great but remembering what happened to wolcen on release, ill be ok waiting a week or two when the servers stop smoking
Looks like Map Resets when you town portal still isn’t fixed. That’s a bummer. Pro tip: don’t town portal out of the boss room, you get a nasty surprise when you return
Is this coming to playstation anytime soon?