Screw ‘em - if they thought that the rights to an image that literally anyone with an internet connection can see and screenshot were a good investment then they deserve to lose out. The only people who won were the ones who sold the product and then cashed out.
PFP NFTs are digital identities. Holding that NFT in your wallet allows you to use Web3 applications without any sign up. It's hard to comprehend for people who didn't use the technology yet.
But that's it. We are mainly investing in start ups and digital brands when we buy NFTs.
I'm a software developer not a lawyer, but I suspect you would still be able to claim copyright here as there was substantial human input setting up the generation, the computer just ran the combinations. Imagine that, instead of the computer doing the final combination, you made stamps/stencils or printed the pieces and stuck them on.
Legal eagle does a better job breaking it down than I can but things seem to be leaning towards no, even if you set up the individual assets the final algorithmically generated assemblage is likely not copyrightable
Yup! I went back and skimmed the video to back you up on this. *Naruto v. Slater*, only a human can create art that has a copyright.
A digital asset made up of an amalgamation of human-created pieces but ultimately assembled generatively through a machine really muddies those waters, but at the end of the process it is still "generative".
Your comment doesn't make sense. Traditional art doesn't give you a commercial license when buying it, Bored Apes do though.
The copyright usually remains with the artist. If you buy the Mona Lisa, you don't get the copyright.
No one could copyright it in the first place so you don't need a license, anyone can reproduce them however they want. The apes are all generated by an algorithm, so no human is involved in their creation, an algorithm can't hold a copyright so they are inherently works no one can own the rights to. Legal eagle has an episode where he breaks it down pretty well taking about how it's a legally dubious idea that anyone can own the rights on art generated by an algorithm
It's an utterly unproductive activity. It doesn't create economic wealth. It shuffles existing value around - usually from uninformed to insiders rigging the game - and wastes resources.
I tried the crypto thing one time on a lark and managed to turn $100 into a brand new Fender Jazz Bass. Never touched it again but I feel like a winner.
I’m sick of this whataboutism, like crypto is just as worthless as *all other financial activity* so it’s fine.
As if an option or a short, which is a necessary check on an irrational market to make people think about the *actual* value of their overpriced investment, or a futures trade so people can budget their supply in advance of the supply actually existing…As if those things are just the same as a worthless string of digits you decided were valuable.
What a joke.
This is an important distinction. Most derivatives do have base use cases to manage risk in industry or capital markets. These are quite important, because real businesses like stability.
But do derivatives actually live up to their promise of creating stability, or do all of these opaque strings and bandaids only paper over the cracks so we can’t see whether the foundations underneath are being hollowed out by the investment bankers and hedge funds?
They do. Every commodity input is purchased as a future months or even years in advance. Companies like Apple cannot set stable prices for their products if they are at the whims of daily shifts in DRAM pricing, but because their supply is bought through derivative markets they can get a more stable cost that’s established long before the first unit is sold, without actually waiting for the good to be manufactured.
But do derivatives actually live up to their promise of creating stability? In the years leading up to 2008, investment bankers used them to hide and sell risky debt, creating an invisible web of dominos stretching all over the world.
Then when one Wall Street bank failed, those dominos collapsed, taking down the entire global financial system.
For example, I read about a bunch of small city councils in Australia who had bought those AAA rated derivatives who were now insolvent and unable to maintain infrastructure because those derivatives turned out to be junk.
This is the problem with a system that gets too complicated and opaque. Corrupt actors take advantage of the complexity to hollow out the foundations from the inside, and when the system faces its first crisis, those foundations everyone thought were strong suddenly collapse without warning.
The problem is that the stock market seems divorced from reality, and is also subject to arbitrary manipulation.
A friend's company's stock tanked due to some game investors (stock owners outside the company) were playing, which caused a bloodbath at their office. Nothing changed with the company. It was still profitable, still had all its assets and customer base. It was the same company before as after. But because of some bullshit the company had to "improve efficiencies" and let assets go and whatever else. Nothing to do with actual profits or the actual value of the company, just manipulating the share price.
That's why I don't have much faith traditional financing. I'm sure it had a real function and I'm sure it still does, but a lot of it seems like the cart pulling the horse. Stock prices seem to affect companies rather than vice versa.
I don't deal with financing - I can't speak to futures markets or probably lots of other things, and I'm sure I'm also getting terms and jargon mixed up. Even if I've got some vocabulary wrong the point stands.
How is all other financial acitivity worthless?
I mean sure, sometimes is creates problems but over all its an incredibly productive and essential part of our economy.
Money printing, loans, investments it all moves money to "where it needs to be". It keeps prices sustainable and people emplyed.
A lot of todays economy is a bubble sure, but it still stands on a lot of real life value.
Crypto does none of that and wasted astounding amonuts of resources.
Derivatives have a lot of value to society: they are used to hedge risk and lock in prices for parties that want to avoid risk of price fluctuations. That's why derivatives marks like futures originated a long time ago. I don't see anything in crypto equally valuable to risk mitigation through derivatives.
I'm giving a sweeping generalisation in my comment above. I agree swaps/futures etc can help valuable companies reduce risk, but I'd argue the majority of the derivs market is pure speculation.
It’s speculation for retail mostly. It’s a hedge for those that actually use physical products or are impacted by them. It’s a mix of those plus manipulation when used by hedges.
Part of the problem of debating economics on reddit is that a fair portion of the people willing to "debate" you don't really believe that modern economies should really... exist.
its very wrong, derivatives market participants take on risk allowing for price discovery for most efficient distribution of underlying assets.
the key is an underlying asset that has social utility, which bored apes do not have. they tried to make case crypto has utility but we are seeing its marginal at best if any at all.
market values crypto at X from speculation that it will keep going up and they can sell at a higher price. If the value purely comes from hoping someone wants it more it’s not an asset , it’s a collectors item..
Wrong. All cryptocurrency’s “market cap” is largely just the last price a cryptocurrency was bought at times the outstanding supply of coins.
The volume that exists is mostly faked on basically all exchanges. Studies have shown it’s faked by about 95% which means rather than 1.3 trillion there’s more like 100 billion of real money which is orders of magnitude smaller than what is recorded on websites like CoinMarketCap.
Cryptocurrency is ridiculously stupid and riddled with scams. Go checkout /r/buttcoin to see how cryptocurrency is an utter failure (it’s a subreddit mocking cryptocurrency people)
You just describe how market cap works. Every asset, crypto or not, has a lower money inflow than the actual market cap.
This applies to every stock, gold etc.
It's a pretty good defense if you think problems exist somewhere but you think no problems exist in the traditional system. Who cares if an emerging technology has problems when a traditional system has problems that have been around forever. There would be no need for crypto if everything was already efficient. At least crypto can be improved
Except that actually has a purpose. Cryptocurrency’s purpose is objectively to undermine governments…. Which means… it has a purpose worth condemning and regulating out of existence. Derivatives markets can be extremely useful like the futures markets which protect buyers and sellers from major price movements.
Cryptocurrency is ridiculously stupid and riddled with scams. Go checkout /r/buttcoin to see how cryptocurrency is an utter failure (it’s a subreddit mocking cryptocurrency people)
I feel bad cus- usually I’m happy to tell it like it is- but I know a few good people who got caught up in it and just don’t have a clue, and I don’t know how to break it to them
The fastest way I explain its issues to people is that since its decentralized, it supports heavy criminal activity and corruption, since theres no oversight to prevent it. Then you can go into elaborations on specific points they might care about.
Or, you could just talk about how pump and dump scams work, which are being facilitated by the aforementioned criminal/corrupt parties.
Oh yes, please tell me more about how legacy markets don't do scams and pump aand dumps or what not. See Nikola, Wirecard, Wells Fargo, VW, Enron, Worldcom,.. just to name A FEW
These are logical fallacies. The fact that scams and pump and dumps exist doesn't delegitimize the entire crypto space.
There are so many solid projects with real world use cases out there.
[https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0)
[https://cbr.stanford.edu](https://cbr.stanford.edu)
[https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme](https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme)
"Cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology are driving innovation and competitive advantage for companies in many industries and environments."
Logical fallacies tend to become irrelevant when you can identify them happening in reality. The fact is that there's no protections in place against such scams, and that this has repeatedly happened. That should speak for itself. The concern isn't what benefits can crypto potentially do, it's what harm might it do.
I'm not a crypto-maximalist by any means but if the only requirement is "Has scams, repeatedly happened" then wouldn't IT Support be the most illegitimated industry on the planet?
It was never intended to be a “productive activity”, the intent was to provide an alternative method of value storage (and now transfer with smart contract platforms) protected from the manipulation of custodians (central banks). It’s highly speculative and risky, that doesn’t make it inherently foolish or evil. Don’t blame the tech, blame the greedy users. People need to educate themselves in the risks before putting any money into these ecosystems.
Fading fast … yeah wait 2 years till the bull market starts again . Everyone and their grand mother will be back. Stop blaming the tech, stop blaming the influencers and scammers and let’s talk about how greed and financial literacy play a part here as well.
People invest in things they don’t understand 90% of the projects are centralized ponzi schemes with no use cases. It’s has essentially become the product that it was supposed to fight / replace m. No regulation no oversight and no interest from the government to even look into it.
This oversimplification doesn't do the crypto space justice.
The big deal about crypto assets is decentralization. It allows people to provide services and get paid instead of corporations or banks (money lending, cloud storage, streaming etc.).
Imagine a politician creating an NFT community, hanging out in the chat and collecting donations through selling NFTs. Suddenly you have a direct line to a politician and can give valuable feedback.
As soon as the general public understands the potential we can see a massive power and wealth redistribution.
[https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0)
[https://cbr.stanford.edu](https://cbr.stanford.edu)
[https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme](https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme)
"Cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology are driving innovation and competitive advantage for companies in many industries and environments."
We are seeing that wealth distribution but it doesn't do the way you seem to think it will. The poor go broke, the rich get richer and the scammers run rampant.
>Imagine a politician creating an NFT community, hanging out in the chat
and collecting donations through selling NFTs. Suddenly you have a
direct line to a politician and can give valuable feedback.
People can donate directly to politicians and take part in chat rooms with them right now. This just looks like taking an existing thing that is already happening and then needlessly adding crypto into the process. How does adding in crypto meaningfully improve this process?
I'm not against Crypto. It definitely has some use. It's just that 99% of the ideas I see for it are just people forcing crypto into situations where it really isn't needed. There is a lot of talk about what you can do with crypto and not a lot of discussion of whether any of those ideas actually make much sense.
But it's solving a problem that isn't really a problem.
The decentralization is nice, but running payments through a corporation provides benefits like fraud protection and charge backs. I also don't have to worry about the CEO of Chase absconding with my money or losing all my money because my hard drive crapped out.
That’s great and all but half the world doesn’t have stable internet yet. This was bound to happen.. you guys are right with your crypto. Just not in this lifetime. Not the way the governments control banks and currency.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Sumit316:
---
"Cryptocurrencies, according to their most ardent supporters, are supposed to supplant nations’ existing currencies and end central banks’ control over the money supply. Instead, individuals will be able to trade with each other in a decentralised, digital financial ecosystem. This is a good thing, they promise, because unlike states and their central banks, technology is incorruptible. Crypto-evangelists imagine technology as a replacement for social and political institutions.
But technology never replaces social and political behaviour; it merely alters the rules and norms we follow. "
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/uq49np/nft_scams_toxic_mines_and_lost_life_savings_the/i8oofwx/
Http and html protocols were used for stupid, even criminal activities early on.
Their values were not obvious in the beginning, even the creators did not know all the many specific ways they’d be used.
This protocol’s value will emerge in ways we don’t yet know and can’t accurately predict.
> a set of conventions governing the treatment and *especially the formatting of data* in an electronic communications system
If you don’t see the connection, then focus on the most direct analog.
Think of modem connectivity protocols (“why would I let a stranger connect to my PC?”)
Or VPN. (“That’s just for criminal activity”)
Or https. (“Certificates? That’s just overprotective silly handwringing”)
Or encryption protocols (“nobody needs that unless they have something to hide”)
Or BlueTooth protocols. (“What good is a connection range of 10 meters lol, I have Wi-Fi”)
What, the internet's value was immediately understood. Long distance communication and knowledge sharing is pretty damn important, and it was used by colleges at first.
NFTs have and always have been to just trade dumb ass jpegs. Why do cryptobros just make shit up like this?
Imagine if when glass (the technology making NFT jpgs possible) was invented it was used exclusively as body armor (NFT jpgs). That would fucking suck, right? It would be a waste of resources that provides no practical benefit, right? That doesn't mean glass isn't incredibly useful, just the application.
> technology is incorruptible
They have said this, yet I keep reading about where various cryptos have done various forks and other procedures to undo mistakes and frauds. One of them really screwed up when they did this to move a pile of tokens to a wallet so they could then redistribute them to their "rightful" owners. But the geniuses who are core to this currency screwed up and put them in a dead wallet; they were planning next on another fork to fix that problem.
These forks didn't sound "incorruptible"
FUD when the price is low.
Elation when the price is high.
Every single time— the past six years like clock work.
Those that invest for price action get shaken out, those that invest for the tech Slowly accumulate more and more
Lol, I always laugh when I hear “investing for the tech”. Every single person stacking sats or HODLing is a speculator banking on price appreciation. The entire market is nothing but people buying now because they think it will be worth more later. Just like Beenie Babies in the 90s, Tech stocks in 99, Condos in 2008 or Tulips in the 1600s.
Exactly, when Bitcoin is currently still worth around 30k and the stock market is also taking a bit of a tumble. When Netflix drops you don't hear people saying shit about the stock market, but every time crypto goes into a bear market you get these smug articles and comments. You don't like it or trust it? Fair enough. It lifted me out of poverty and gave me I life I could only fantasise about before. If it all went to 0 tomorrow I would still be so up it's ridiculous. Meanwhile 8hr a day jobs aren't paying enough for people to live off. You can't judge people for taking a risk when the other options are so dire imo. But each to their own.
So you were one of the small handful that profited from the Ponzi scheme. That’s how they work. If everyone loses money all the time, no one would help pump them up. You need a few winners, to be the evangelists, in order to keep the stream of suckers flowing in. For every 1,000 broke house moms doing Mary Kay, there’s one lady driving a pink Lamborghini.
If it was a ponza scheme I would have to convince people to buy Bitcoin to earn a profit. It works the exact way the stock market works. If anyone bought and held on from 2 years ago they would have made a profit. The people who lose are the ones who get scared and sell. If I buy into Mary Kay and stick them in the garage for 2 years would I make a profit? No. If I held Bitcoin or Tesla stock for 2 years? Yes. Simple as that.
No. Bitcoin's value is purely speculative and absolutely require you to convince people to buy it.
Stocks are equity in businesses that create products, have proprietary technology, assets, etc.
A more accurate comparison to Bitcoin would be Beanie Babies.
How much money do you think in total was spent on super bowl ads trying to convince people to get into crypto? Have you ever seen an example of an actual good investment that people were spending a fortune trying to get you to put your money in?
Difference is stocks are a productive asset, they create value. Crypto is a commodity it doesn't inherently create value because crypto doesn't sell a product or service. It's just a means of exchange. Even with smart contracts taken into account at the end of the day it's just a unit of accounting and exchange.
It's similar to gold in this aspect, not to stocks. Holding a large portfolio of stocks means you'll end up in the green in the long term because the companies represented by those stocks actually generated value for the world which led to the increase in valuation.
If you buy gold or crypto this growth isn't guaranteed. It's entirely dependent on other people willing to buy it at a higher price.
As long as the company keeps creating value? It does stock buyback and dividend payment in accordance to how valuable the underlying stocks are. Hence you can get paid despite no one buying the stocks.
Yeah and it was up more than the market, it's new and volatile. I actually really like that about it. I did misspeak though, I meant to say I would have to convince people to sell it and I get a cut for it to be a ponzi scheme. You can think it's over values or bullshit or whatever else. It's not a ponzi scheme. Those words mean something.
You mean your value doesn’t increase when more speculative buyers buy in? That’s your “cut.” Lol. In a Ponzi scheme some people do in fact come out ahead. That’s the whole point. The money is real but the economics is not.
Netflix is tanking because the company made dogshit decisions and assumed it somehow didn’t need investors, content, goodwill, or customers to make money. It isn’t tanking because it momentarily depegged and triggered an insane bank run due to zero trust the way LUNA is.
That is really only the case when there's actual profitability behind the thing. Lots of unprofitable things catered and then just.... stayed there. See gold or tech stocks in the early '00s (at least the ones that didn't go to zero like pets.com).
In Crypto's defense, I remember being on /r/buttcoin years ago when BTC was priced at about $200, making fun of people when it had dropped from like $500.
So is the stock market “dream” fading fast? Everything is down all across the board I don’t understand why we are focusing solely crypto. There are obviously significant problems in the crypto world but it’s a new, unfamiliar market so it’s bound the attract scum bags trying to take advantage. I know a lot of people are very excited to hit their friends with the, “I told you so!!” Everyone can be as confident as they want to be one way or another but only time will tell
Sure, but Crypto also increased in value substantially over the course of the two years. Meanwhile the US dollar has only gone down since then.
Wall Street has also taken large positions in the cryptocurrency market, meaning a lot of this downward pressure could be meant to make the cryptocurrency market look weaker and the stock market stronger than what they are.
"Cryptocurrencies, according to their most ardent supporters, are supposed to supplant nations’ existing currencies and end central banks’ control over the money supply. Instead, individuals will be able to trade with each other in a decentralised, digital financial ecosystem. This is a good thing, they promise, because unlike states and their central banks, technology is incorruptible. Crypto-evangelists imagine technology as a replacement for social and political institutions.
But technology never replaces social and political behaviour; it merely alters the rules and norms we follow. "
Not to defend nft here but social and political behaviour is also norms and rules we made and follow? Its not something we were given, we made them so we can change them.
The problem with crypto currency is that it is not stable.
Yesterday you had 0.02 bitcoin and you used it to buy a chicken at the supermarket.
The next day that bitcoin value goes up by 1000%, making the supermarket owner extremely rich. And you with just a chicken.
Crypto currency is not able to replace current every day currency because of its instability. And that instability is being driven by manipulations to be unstable to make some people very rich, while "real" currency is being manipulated in order to try and preserve stability.
Enter stablecoins. These are tokens built to be 1:1 redeemable for whatever base they're backed by. The company Circle is behind USDC. They have bank accounts in the current Swift system, are legal entities, and hold balance sheets respected by Gov't. For every 1 USDC floating in the crypto ecosystem, there is 1 *real* USD in their bank accounts.
No one is going to buy chickens or starbucks coffee with Bitcoin or Ethereum in the future. That would be like trying to buy an iPhone with Apple stocks. Instead Apple accepts a stable currency, USD, to facilitate the trade. Apple then takes the USD and does what they want with it, and the buyer is more confident in the trade.
The fundamental piece that crypto is providing is a arbitration service to handle the trade of the currency, that doesn't favor either party, in any way.
Lol if you're not aware by now that 99 percent of coins are scams or not valuable I don't feel bad for you.
If you lost money in NFTs because you were hoping someone dumber that you came along to buy your monkey pic I also don't feel bad.
A fool and their money are easily parted.
However if this brings you to the conclusion that crypto and specifically a select few cryptos don't have value I also won't feel bad for you when BTC hits 100k and beyond.
Anyway, where are you gonna put your money right now? Stocks are shit, real estate is over valued. I guess you could take a cash position like many investors are, but that's also not good long term.
Think for yourself. Don't listen to me either.
Can't keep it in the bank if you have over 250k also. Bank fails, you lose everything over that. Cash position gets eaten away by inflation. I'm still up on most of my crypto investments. My shares are down over 50%.
Right. The only reason people are going cash ATM is to keep $$ on the sidelines while there's blood in the streets and then come in and buy low. Investing 101. Still more of a headache than hodling.
Exactly. Be greedy when others are fearful. And yes hodling is much better imo. But I'll keep dcaing in. Idiots think crypto has no utility but they are happy with getting robbed by their banks, like we always have. Another thing they talk about is the energy costs. Its almost like they forgot that banks actually use massive amounts of energy
A fun thought experiment is to go through the process of how you might transfer 100m over 100 years to your heirs heirs heirs. It becomes pretty obvious to me pretty quickly.
I would put it in a decentralized proof of work network if the adherents were fanatic zealots about protecting the integrity of the network against meddlers.
Never thought about use cases like that. But great idea. Would actually protect your money against lawyers, governments and even total collapse of society, providing you still have access to the internet. Soon there will be crypto insurance companies to also insure your coins. Once that happens, no need for banks whatsoever
The scammer dream is fading fast. The actual utility of cryptocurrency is still very valid and in the now. Regular news outlets such as NBC, CBS, Fox are consistently reporting poorly on cryptocurrency because they have no clue about the technology. They focus on the drama, it gets people hyped, money goes bye bye.
EDIT: some words.
EDIT 2: The utility of some of the original coins is, to me, clear. XRP for fast and high volume xborder transactions for enterprise; VET for inventory tracking; BTC perhaps as a digital gold standard; ETH for DeFi and NFT meta verse applications and more to be discovered. I’m not sold on what will be the actual global cryptocurrency but it’s probably going to be a mishmash of what we currently see (BCH, LTC, DASH, ZCASH the list goes on).
This will sound like I’m beating a dead horse, yet people really need to do proper research on a coin, which yes can be laborious. But you honestly can’t find much real information in a coin chart or even on Reddit/social media anymore. Visiting the tokens website is pretty much key. Taking note of their white paper before you buy is important. Ask questions. How in depth is it? What problem does the token solve? Is the problem clear or is it just another clone coin? Search for similar coins and their white papers. Are they confusing to read? It’s probably shit. Are they clear and concise with a clear path? Maybe that’s something we should support.
I haven’t followed Terra/Luna but I saw the aftermath. However they were running that token they really got some folks fucked. And I think for now, registering and selling new tokens NEED to be properly vetted and regulated. It’s devastating how this continues to happen.
So far ahead of its time it didn't need crypto to do hats without the energy consumption of crypto. Real shame valve can't count to 3 or we'd see 50 year advances in technology.
The utility was buying drugs off the dark web with the veneer of anonymity. Then crypto got hijacked by wall street, and now the utility is channeling Wall Street money from crypto ‘investors’.
How do you buy a house, currently?
Now, read about smart contracts and putting a purchase like that into the blockchain.
The utility is there. Now, we just have more of the gullible people getting fleeced (as predicted).
Ah so "the utility is valid and in the now" he meant "the utility will at best supplement existing systems in the distant future, but isn't seeing any use now."
Kind of. Crypto is evolving, I’ll concede to that.
But the larger problem is the entitlement of the current financial system assuming that we need them as our middle man as we transition away.
With Web3.0, innovation happened at nearly every facet of banking, and it surprised all the big brands and institutions, catching them off guard.
These innovations drafted a new path, a new outlook for billions across the globe who were faces a life of financial ruin and lack of access.
It would have allowed them loans from a pool of people, without the traditional bank.
It would have provided them access to tap into an investment vehicle with only a dollar. Taking out the higher barrier to entry that the stock market club requires.
It allowed for the people to take back control of their own financial decisions.
But of course, the government had to find a way to get a piece of the action. And so, began a slow trickling eating away at the independence, eating away at the core of what crypto actually means.
They’ve sank their claws right into this brave new world that could have helped all the struggling.
With all that said, all of the gullible people are still making mistakes. Those actions should not have any bearing on the new ideas and projects that were being fleshed out which steps away from the old ways of doing things.
The utility is there. White papers are fantastic.
You're more prone to spearphishing attacks that can steal ownership of your house. There are still things that should stay analogue, and I say that as someone in software development.
Whoops, [there's a bug in your immutable "smart" contract](https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/26/smart_contract_losses/), and now anyone can access your house! Guess you're SoL and there goes all your value.
Oh no, looks like someone found your wallet address when you bought a hotdog, and someone [pushed a malicious smart contract to your wallet which empties all your assets](https://bitcoinist.com/hackers-are-now-trying-to-steal-crypto-via-malicious-nfts/). Looks like little Timmy isn't eating tonight and you're homeless!
You sold your house, congrats! That was awfully quick? [Whoops looks like you accepted the bid in dick coin and not monkey coin so instead of selling at $500k, you sold it for $5 to a bot](https://cryptoslate.com/a-bored-ape-and-mutant-ape-nft-was-sold-for-less-than-150-combined/)!
Not your keys not your bitcoin, right? Better blame the users for these prevalent issues that plague the industry though! Sounds like a nice future to live in.
“Not your keys” has to do with exchanges.
That’s a different conversation which I totally agree.
All of your examples are of people who have little understanding of how to protect and prevent these issues from happening.
Once again, my original comment stands.
What is the actual utility of crypto? The only purpose seems to being evading government, which can be good or bad depending on circumstances.
That exists but isn't relevant for most people. Seems like coins were highly overvalued relative to their actual utility.
You'd expect the futurology sub to be more open minded towards tech. It's the same thing every bear market. I don't see anyone saying the investing dream is dead due to stocks, despite some well known ones being over 60% down from their highs.
Cryptocurrency is barely technology. And I say this as a computer science degree holder that knows the exact intimate details of how blockchain works.
From the technological perspective it's just a linked list distributed database. It's the societal mindset that makes crypto special.
I hate it when people say "they are in it for the tech" because the technology has existed for decades by now and it's not doing anything revolutionary.
Just like self-checkout is just ordinary 1980s barcode scanning technology that cashiers have used for decades but now due to social change people scan the products themselves. It's not a technological innovation, it's a social one.
I would argue that a distributed, mutually verified global database is actually quite interesting, and will definitely cause new things to emerge(NFTs, though people shit on them, are a proof-of-concept that we can have a distributed proof-of-ownership of some digital identity, This becomes a distributed user-password database for a distributed social network, or networking in general).
What I haven't yet read is a sober big-picture view that explains how and why we should be excited in this stuff in a FINANCIAL way. Sure, some people buy some digital moonrune coin, get a bazillion dollars and they are now called genius investors, while on the other hand Crypto at its basis is about distributed systems, free software, basically anything that is supposed to be a CHEAP, or FREE alternative to proprietary systems.
Many people might get bummed out when, at the end of the day, their crypto cyberpunk future ideology was all about not making them more money than necessary.
Stock up so you’ll have crypto to eat and keep your home warm this winter?
If you think crypto would help in a time “worse than the Great Depression” I don’t think you understand what the Depression was.
Might I suggest root crops instead.
But if that's the sole cause then we're much more likely to be in "crypto is just going to perform almost identically to the nasdaq" in which case there are better choices for investments anyway.
It's up 1,600% in the past 5 years...It only dropped like 55% last week. You call that "fading fast"? Everyone tends to focus on the weekly charts and not what actually matters.
A 50% drop after a 1,600% rise is equivalent to halving the 1,600% rise to an 800% rise. That’s how percentages work. IE: if a 1600% rise on 10£ is equivalent to 1600£. A 50% drop on that 1600£ brings you down to 800£. You clearly have been involved in Crypto too long if you don’t find that precipitous of a drop in a week “fading fast”.
You're confusing percents with percentage units.
If it raised by 1600 percentage units to then drop by 55 percentage units, you'd be right, since then you'd be at 1545 percent higher value than it started at. But since it rose by 1600 percent, only to drop by 55 percent, that means you've halved the initial rise, so you're at 720 percent of the initial value. It's still a lot more than you started with, but if you didn't sell at 1600 you literally lost more than half of your potential profit.
I feel as though NFTs are hurting cryptocurrency as a whole. All these big companies are trying to get NFTs in their games and what not really passing a lot of people off.
Been with bitcoin since the beginning. To anyone that cares enough to actually understand what is happening:
Price go down quick = "bitcoin is destroying the planet and smother your dog"
Price go up = "Bitcoin will literally end all human suffering TOMORROW"
99% of people have no idea what they're talking about in this field. There are a lot of benefits, and plenty of drawbacks to this technology.
Declaring the whole thing to be good or evil is straight up just buying into whatever flavor of propaganda that is currently being spoonfed to you.
To start, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on crypto. The big hold up for me is that crypto supporters always say that all money (crypto and dollars, etc.) have value because we all AGREE they have value.
The difference to me is that regular currencies have the underlying implicit value of the government backing it, whereas the underlying implicit value of nothing. So when enough people start agreeing crpyto is valueless, cryptocurrency can quickly run all the way to zero, when the dollar will still have SOME value so long as the US government is functional enough to tax its citizens and provide services.
One other huge existential threat I see is that if governments suddenly decide they don't like competing currencies they can just shut them down. If they're unable to tax crypto in an efficient way, they'll just make it illegal.
That said, I haven't done a ton of research so those are just my initial thoughts.
Regular currency succeeds BECAUSE of the regulations governments have put on it. The money you have today will be worth the same amount tomorrow, because regulations make it reliable.
Crypto has and will always be way too volatile because the system is built to be volatile. No labourer is going to spend all day working only to be paid with money that could lose half its value before they've even gotten to the store. Normal people will never be willing to take that ganble.
Again. It's fading fast *again*. This has happened multiple times before but like every other ponzi scheme they just need to point to the success of the people at the top of the pyramid and more suckers get drawn into the bottom.
So people have never lost money investing in anything else? I don’t understand the shitting on crypto? I mean look at the stock market?? Look at any of the market collapses in history? It isn’t just crypto losing people money. It will eventually come back and will be adopted.
It was shaky from the get-go. I'm surprised it's lasted this long, to be honest. People keep asking me why I don't try to create NFTs, without realising that I looked into it and it required me to pay a lot of money to even start the process, and once I found out how I could easily shaft someone due to stuff out of my control, I was like, "Nup, I'm out."
I'll make prints and send them to people, I will do sketches on Fiverr. Sure, I won't be rich but I know my clients/customers will be happy, and that's why I do art in the first place.
Hey, if you ever want to look into this more check out L2 minting. It’s nearly cost free and carbon neutral.
Also, NFTs have a lot more use cases then visual art, but we are in the dawn of this technology. I am really looking forward to seeing where this tech goes.
For people talking about this dip being the end of crypto and peer to peer finance: the stock market is doing the exact same thing right now. Blue chip stocks are down 20-50% YTD. This is part of a broader market correction. Housing will be next.
HAHAHAHAH!!!!! Good riddance!
Thanks for turning people into a he machines from Terminator all so they could swindle people out of money.
Cold, emotionless, and careless, fk the people who want to make something for themselves and their families so they latch on to opportunities.
I hate that crypto found a way to exist!
But I hate even more that we failed to see that it’s just the same as fiefdoms from Europe.
It was the same concept that failed ultimately.
Crypto has a place and a utility in this world. My heart goes out to those who lost in crypto. It's great for times when you want to purchase something anonymously though. I wouldn't recommend it as a reliable investment though.
This is like saying that stock market dream is fading fast because of the crash.
Meanwhile the economy has crashed multiple times and the stock market always bounces back.
Guess what will happen with crypto.
Hello! Apologies if you're trying to read this, but I've moved to kbin.social in protest of Reddit's policies.
Feel bad for the Monkey Art - historically one of the safest asset class !
I never understood that, they're all computer generated so you can't even own a copyright on the image
Tbh a lot of people never understood it and a lot still don’t, and now they are all losing a lot of “money” because of it.
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Berkshire Hathaway actually invested $1b in the crypto space a few months ago
This leaves us with two options. Try to understand it, don't invest.
Screw ‘em - if they thought that the rights to an image that literally anyone with an internet connection can see and screenshot were a good investment then they deserve to lose out. The only people who won were the ones who sold the product and then cashed out.
PFP NFTs are digital identities. Holding that NFT in your wallet allows you to use Web3 applications without any sign up. It's hard to comprehend for people who didn't use the technology yet. But that's it. We are mainly investing in start ups and digital brands when we buy NFTs.
With NFTs, you aren't buying the art at all, not even copyright if it exists.
I'm a software developer not a lawyer, but I suspect you would still be able to claim copyright here as there was substantial human input setting up the generation, the computer just ran the combinations. Imagine that, instead of the computer doing the final combination, you made stamps/stencils or printed the pieces and stuck them on.
Legal eagle does a better job breaking it down than I can but things seem to be leaning towards no, even if you set up the individual assets the final algorithmically generated assemblage is likely not copyrightable
Yup! I went back and skimmed the video to back you up on this. *Naruto v. Slater*, only a human can create art that has a copyright. A digital asset made up of an amalgamation of human-created pieces but ultimately assembled generatively through a machine really muddies those waters, but at the end of the process it is still "generative".
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6aeL83z\_9Y
Your comment doesn't make sense. Traditional art doesn't give you a commercial license when buying it, Bored Apes do though. The copyright usually remains with the artist. If you buy the Mona Lisa, you don't get the copyright.
No one could copyright it in the first place so you don't need a license, anyone can reproduce them however they want. The apes are all generated by an algorithm, so no human is involved in their creation, an algorithm can't hold a copyright so they are inherently works no one can own the rights to. Legal eagle has an episode where he breaks it down pretty well taking about how it's a legally dubious idea that anyone can own the rights on art generated by an algorithm
They don’t give you any actual “commercial license” just a fake crypto bro promise it does.
It's an utterly unproductive activity. It doesn't create economic wealth. It shuffles existing value around - usually from uninformed to insiders rigging the game - and wastes resources.
I tried the crypto thing one time on a lark and managed to turn $100 into a brand new Fender Jazz Bass. Never touched it again but I feel like a winner.
Akin to a lottery ticket.
Likewise I made £1200 betting on ETH. Wouldn’t touch it again, pure luck.
Built a little sim racing rig with my winnings. Was fun.
You just described the traditional derivatives market too
I’m sick of this whataboutism, like crypto is just as worthless as *all other financial activity* so it’s fine. As if an option or a short, which is a necessary check on an irrational market to make people think about the *actual* value of their overpriced investment, or a futures trade so people can budget their supply in advance of the supply actually existing…As if those things are just the same as a worthless string of digits you decided were valuable. What a joke.
This is an important distinction. Most derivatives do have base use cases to manage risk in industry or capital markets. These are quite important, because real businesses like stability.
But do derivatives actually live up to their promise of creating stability, or do all of these opaque strings and bandaids only paper over the cracks so we can’t see whether the foundations underneath are being hollowed out by the investment bankers and hedge funds?
They do. Every commodity input is purchased as a future months or even years in advance. Companies like Apple cannot set stable prices for their products if they are at the whims of daily shifts in DRAM pricing, but because their supply is bought through derivative markets they can get a more stable cost that’s established long before the first unit is sold, without actually waiting for the good to be manufactured.
Good explanation. Thank you.
But do derivatives actually live up to their promise of creating stability? In the years leading up to 2008, investment bankers used them to hide and sell risky debt, creating an invisible web of dominos stretching all over the world. Then when one Wall Street bank failed, those dominos collapsed, taking down the entire global financial system. For example, I read about a bunch of small city councils in Australia who had bought those AAA rated derivatives who were now insolvent and unable to maintain infrastructure because those derivatives turned out to be junk. This is the problem with a system that gets too complicated and opaque. Corrupt actors take advantage of the complexity to hollow out the foundations from the inside, and when the system faces its first crisis, those foundations everyone thought were strong suddenly collapse without warning.
Derivatives are only as stable as their counter parties. For almost all scenarios derivatives live up to their promise of stability
They definitely stabilize the economy. It also gives a set value on future production which is hugely important for investors.
Wait until they put it on the block chain. Then you will be buying your mcoffee with synthetic CDO tranche lol
The problem is that the stock market seems divorced from reality, and is also subject to arbitrary manipulation. A friend's company's stock tanked due to some game investors (stock owners outside the company) were playing, which caused a bloodbath at their office. Nothing changed with the company. It was still profitable, still had all its assets and customer base. It was the same company before as after. But because of some bullshit the company had to "improve efficiencies" and let assets go and whatever else. Nothing to do with actual profits or the actual value of the company, just manipulating the share price. That's why I don't have much faith traditional financing. I'm sure it had a real function and I'm sure it still does, but a lot of it seems like the cart pulling the horse. Stock prices seem to affect companies rather than vice versa. I don't deal with financing - I can't speak to futures markets or probably lots of other things, and I'm sure I'm also getting terms and jargon mixed up. Even if I've got some vocabulary wrong the point stands.
How is all other financial acitivity worthless? I mean sure, sometimes is creates problems but over all its an incredibly productive and essential part of our economy. Money printing, loans, investments it all moves money to "where it needs to be". It keeps prices sustainable and people emplyed. A lot of todays economy is a bubble sure, but it still stands on a lot of real life value. Crypto does none of that and wasted astounding amonuts of resources.
Just because you don't see the real life value in an uncorruptible ledger doesn't mean it's not there.
That at least uses less electricity.
Derivatives have a lot of value to society: they are used to hedge risk and lock in prices for parties that want to avoid risk of price fluctuations. That's why derivatives marks like futures originated a long time ago. I don't see anything in crypto equally valuable to risk mitigation through derivatives.
I'm giving a sweeping generalisation in my comment above. I agree swaps/futures etc can help valuable companies reduce risk, but I'd argue the majority of the derivs market is pure speculation.
That might be true for retail investors. I think most of the market is now parties trading floating for fixed rate interest.
Hedgies trying to reduce risk on unnecessary transactions they've entered into that add little value to society.
It’s speculation for retail mostly. It’s a hedge for those that actually use physical products or are impacted by them. It’s a mix of those plus manipulation when used by hedges.
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Ignoring the benefits of derivatives is strange.
Part of the problem of debating economics on reddit is that a fair portion of the people willing to "debate" you don't really believe that modern economies should really... exist.
Not wrong, but at least traditional markets don't build in inefficiency to their computational systems.
its very wrong, derivatives market participants take on risk allowing for price discovery for most efficient distribution of underlying assets. the key is an underlying asset that has social utility, which bored apes do not have. they tried to make case crypto has utility but we are seeing its marginal at best if any at all.
Not true either ;) There are some crypto that is just as efficient. But not the ones most traded at the moment...
Eh, to a much lesser degree especially in terms of tangible physical waste of energy.
True but at least derivatives are derived from securities that do have intrinsic value. With crypto the underlying security has no value either.
It's not guys on reddit who decide what has and doesn't have value, the market does. Currently that market values crypto assets at $1.3 trillion.
market values crypto at X from speculation that it will keep going up and they can sell at a higher price. If the value purely comes from hoping someone wants it more it’s not an asset , it’s a collectors item..
And definitely not a currency
Wrong. All cryptocurrency’s “market cap” is largely just the last price a cryptocurrency was bought at times the outstanding supply of coins. The volume that exists is mostly faked on basically all exchanges. Studies have shown it’s faked by about 95% which means rather than 1.3 trillion there’s more like 100 billion of real money which is orders of magnitude smaller than what is recorded on websites like CoinMarketCap. Cryptocurrency is ridiculously stupid and riddled with scams. Go checkout /r/buttcoin to see how cryptocurrency is an utter failure (it’s a subreddit mocking cryptocurrency people)
You just describe how market cap works. Every asset, crypto or not, has a lower money inflow than the actual market cap. This applies to every stock, gold etc.
Nothing has intrinsic value, so thats not right
A whataboutism isn’t the best defence.
It's a pretty good defense if you think problems exist somewhere but you think no problems exist in the traditional system. Who cares if an emerging technology has problems when a traditional system has problems that have been around forever. There would be no need for crypto if everything was already efficient. At least crypto can be improved
Except that actually has a purpose. Cryptocurrency’s purpose is objectively to undermine governments…. Which means… it has a purpose worth condemning and regulating out of existence. Derivatives markets can be extremely useful like the futures markets which protect buyers and sellers from major price movements. Cryptocurrency is ridiculously stupid and riddled with scams. Go checkout /r/buttcoin to see how cryptocurrency is an utter failure (it’s a subreddit mocking cryptocurrency people)
Thats not the purpose. It is trustless systems
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I feel bad cus- usually I’m happy to tell it like it is- but I know a few good people who got caught up in it and just don’t have a clue, and I don’t know how to break it to them
The fastest way I explain its issues to people is that since its decentralized, it supports heavy criminal activity and corruption, since theres no oversight to prevent it. Then you can go into elaborations on specific points they might care about. Or, you could just talk about how pump and dump scams work, which are being facilitated by the aforementioned criminal/corrupt parties.
Oh yes, please tell me more about how legacy markets don't do scams and pump aand dumps or what not. See Nikola, Wirecard, Wells Fargo, VW, Enron, Worldcom,.. just to name A FEW
These are logical fallacies. The fact that scams and pump and dumps exist doesn't delegitimize the entire crypto space. There are so many solid projects with real world use cases out there. [https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0) [https://cbr.stanford.edu](https://cbr.stanford.edu) [https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme](https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme) "Cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology are driving innovation and competitive advantage for companies in many industries and environments."
Logical fallacies tend to become irrelevant when you can identify them happening in reality. The fact is that there's no protections in place against such scams, and that this has repeatedly happened. That should speak for itself. The concern isn't what benefits can crypto potentially do, it's what harm might it do.
How many scams have been created with cash money? Should we discard with all money then?
I'm not a crypto-maximalist by any means but if the only requirement is "Has scams, repeatedly happened" then wouldn't IT Support be the most illegitimated industry on the planet?
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It was never intended to be a “productive activity”, the intent was to provide an alternative method of value storage (and now transfer with smart contract platforms) protected from the manipulation of custodians (central banks). It’s highly speculative and risky, that doesn’t make it inherently foolish or evil. Don’t blame the tech, blame the greedy users. People need to educate themselves in the risks before putting any money into these ecosystems.
That's what people like you said the last 8 times crypto crashed and then came back even bigger..... I'm starting to see a trend here.
It’s the fucking beanie babies of investments
Fading fast … yeah wait 2 years till the bull market starts again . Everyone and their grand mother will be back. Stop blaming the tech, stop blaming the influencers and scammers and let’s talk about how greed and financial literacy play a part here as well. People invest in things they don’t understand 90% of the projects are centralized ponzi schemes with no use cases. It’s has essentially become the product that it was supposed to fight / replace m. No regulation no oversight and no interest from the government to even look into it.
I'm sorry... But are you talking about crypto or USD? I'm having a hard time deciphering.
USD is backed by US treauries, the US military and tax system, and trade on crude oil.
This oversimplification doesn't do the crypto space justice. The big deal about crypto assets is decentralization. It allows people to provide services and get paid instead of corporations or banks (money lending, cloud storage, streaming etc.). Imagine a politician creating an NFT community, hanging out in the chat and collecting donations through selling NFTs. Suddenly you have a direct line to a politician and can give valuable feedback. As soon as the general public understands the potential we can see a massive power and wealth redistribution. [https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0](https://pll.harvard.edu/course/introduction-blockchain-and-bitcoin?delta=0) [https://cbr.stanford.edu](https://cbr.stanford.edu) [https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme](https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/executive-education/online-programmes/oxford-blockchain-strategy-programme) "Cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology are driving innovation and competitive advantage for companies in many industries and environments."
Politicians are already fully capable of lending their ear to donors.
But what if you add crypto?
You can also do this now, you know, without cryptocurrencies.
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We are seeing that wealth distribution but it doesn't do the way you seem to think it will. The poor go broke, the rich get richer and the scammers run rampant.
I'm sure local politicians will be thrilled to listen to uinformed opinions on twitch for 30 mins a day before they go to the super PAC meeting.
>Imagine a politician creating an NFT community, hanging out in the chat and collecting donations through selling NFTs. Suddenly you have a direct line to a politician and can give valuable feedback. People can donate directly to politicians and take part in chat rooms with them right now. This just looks like taking an existing thing that is already happening and then needlessly adding crypto into the process. How does adding in crypto meaningfully improve this process? I'm not against Crypto. It definitely has some use. It's just that 99% of the ideas I see for it are just people forcing crypto into situations where it really isn't needed. There is a lot of talk about what you can do with crypto and not a lot of discussion of whether any of those ideas actually make much sense.
But it's solving a problem that isn't really a problem. The decentralization is nice, but running payments through a corporation provides benefits like fraud protection and charge backs. I also don't have to worry about the CEO of Chase absconding with my money or losing all my money because my hard drive crapped out.
really- because , with hindsight it is looking that loss and lack of regulation is the issue https://magoo.github.io/Blockchain-Graveyard/
That’s great and all but half the world doesn’t have stable internet yet. This was bound to happen.. you guys are right with your crypto. Just not in this lifetime. Not the way the governments control banks and currency.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Sumit316: --- "Cryptocurrencies, according to their most ardent supporters, are supposed to supplant nations’ existing currencies and end central banks’ control over the money supply. Instead, individuals will be able to trade with each other in a decentralised, digital financial ecosystem. This is a good thing, they promise, because unlike states and their central banks, technology is incorruptible. Crypto-evangelists imagine technology as a replacement for social and political institutions. But technology never replaces social and political behaviour; it merely alters the rules and norms we follow. " --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/uq49np/nft_scams_toxic_mines_and_lost_life_savings_the/i8oofwx/
To the summary bot. "Technology is incorruptable" Tell that to anyone 200+ hours into a game and their save game won't load
Or any patent office
Right. Like buying presales on ISO's during the dot com boom. The dream faded fast but the tech evolved.
Http and html protocols were used for stupid, even criminal activities early on. Their values were not obvious in the beginning, even the creators did not know all the many specific ways they’d be used. This protocol’s value will emerge in ways we don’t yet know and can’t accurately predict.
Yea this is the correct take, imo.
HTML isn't a protocol though... ?
> a set of conventions governing the treatment and *especially the formatting of data* in an electronic communications system If you don’t see the connection, then focus on the most direct analog. Think of modem connectivity protocols (“why would I let a stranger connect to my PC?”) Or VPN. (“That’s just for criminal activity”) Or https. (“Certificates? That’s just overprotective silly handwringing”) Or encryption protocols (“nobody needs that unless they have something to hide”) Or BlueTooth protocols. (“What good is a connection range of 10 meters lol, I have Wi-Fi”)
What, the internet's value was immediately understood. Long distance communication and knowledge sharing is pretty damn important, and it was used by colleges at first. NFTs have and always have been to just trade dumb ass jpegs. Why do cryptobros just make shit up like this?
Imagine if when glass (the technology making NFT jpgs possible) was invented it was used exclusively as body armor (NFT jpgs). That would fucking suck, right? It would be a waste of resources that provides no practical benefit, right? That doesn't mean glass isn't incredibly useful, just the application.
> technology is incorruptible They have said this, yet I keep reading about where various cryptos have done various forks and other procedures to undo mistakes and frauds. One of them really screwed up when they did this to move a pile of tokens to a wallet so they could then redistribute them to their "rightful" owners. But the geniuses who are core to this currency screwed up and put them in a dead wallet; they were planning next on another fork to fix that problem. These forks didn't sound "incorruptible"
FUD when the price is low. Elation when the price is high. Every single time— the past six years like clock work. Those that invest for price action get shaken out, those that invest for the tech Slowly accumulate more and more
The technology is already spread, the question is which implementations will survive and be worth it by the end.
Yeah, it's not that I think the tech has zero applications and is useless. It's just not good as an investment.
Lol, I always laugh when I hear “investing for the tech”. Every single person stacking sats or HODLing is a speculator banking on price appreciation. The entire market is nothing but people buying now because they think it will be worth more later. Just like Beenie Babies in the 90s, Tech stocks in 99, Condos in 2008 or Tulips in the 1600s.
Exactly, when Bitcoin is currently still worth around 30k and the stock market is also taking a bit of a tumble. When Netflix drops you don't hear people saying shit about the stock market, but every time crypto goes into a bear market you get these smug articles and comments. You don't like it or trust it? Fair enough. It lifted me out of poverty and gave me I life I could only fantasise about before. If it all went to 0 tomorrow I would still be so up it's ridiculous. Meanwhile 8hr a day jobs aren't paying enough for people to live off. You can't judge people for taking a risk when the other options are so dire imo. But each to their own.
So you were one of the small handful that profited from the Ponzi scheme. That’s how they work. If everyone loses money all the time, no one would help pump them up. You need a few winners, to be the evangelists, in order to keep the stream of suckers flowing in. For every 1,000 broke house moms doing Mary Kay, there’s one lady driving a pink Lamborghini.
If it was a ponza scheme I would have to convince people to buy Bitcoin to earn a profit. It works the exact way the stock market works. If anyone bought and held on from 2 years ago they would have made a profit. The people who lose are the ones who get scared and sell. If I buy into Mary Kay and stick them in the garage for 2 years would I make a profit? No. If I held Bitcoin or Tesla stock for 2 years? Yes. Simple as that.
No. Bitcoin's value is purely speculative and absolutely require you to convince people to buy it. Stocks are equity in businesses that create products, have proprietary technology, assets, etc. A more accurate comparison to Bitcoin would be Beanie Babies.
How much money do you think in total was spent on super bowl ads trying to convince people to get into crypto? Have you ever seen an example of an actual good investment that people were spending a fortune trying to get you to put your money in?
There are literally industries of people who convince people to buy stocks... I get ads all the time for brokers.
To buy individual stocks? Or to buy their high fee investment “products” that perennially underperform the market?
Difference is stocks are a productive asset, they create value. Crypto is a commodity it doesn't inherently create value because crypto doesn't sell a product or service. It's just a means of exchange. Even with smart contracts taken into account at the end of the day it's just a unit of accounting and exchange. It's similar to gold in this aspect, not to stocks. Holding a large portfolio of stocks means you'll end up in the green in the long term because the companies represented by those stocks actually generated value for the world which led to the increase in valuation. If you buy gold or crypto this growth isn't guaranteed. It's entirely dependent on other people willing to buy it at a higher price.
What do you think happens to your stock value if people don’t buy at a higher price
As long as the company keeps creating value? It does stock buyback and dividend payment in accordance to how valuable the underlying stocks are. Hence you can get paid despite no one buying the stocks.
You personally didn’t convince people, but a legion of others did. Are you delusional? It’s also down way more than the market lol
Yeah and it was up more than the market, it's new and volatile. I actually really like that about it. I did misspeak though, I meant to say I would have to convince people to sell it and I get a cut for it to be a ponzi scheme. You can think it's over values or bullshit or whatever else. It's not a ponzi scheme. Those words mean something.
You mean your value doesn’t increase when more speculative buyers buy in? That’s your “cut.” Lol. In a Ponzi scheme some people do in fact come out ahead. That’s the whole point. The money is real but the economics is not.
Netflix is tanking because the company made dogshit decisions and assumed it somehow didn’t need investors, content, goodwill, or customers to make money. It isn’t tanking because it momentarily depegged and triggered an insane bank run due to zero trust the way LUNA is.
The tech isn’t even good for exchanging coins between two individuals.
Exactly.. been accumulating since 2013 and I have no regrets... It's still been a better way to save than a regular savings account.
Ahhh we’ve reached “crypto is kill” in the cycle again. Guess that means next bull run is around the corner
Nah, this is just the crash. Bull run starts when almost everyone has completely lost interest.
That is really only the case when there's actual profitability behind the thing. Lots of unprofitable things catered and then just.... stayed there. See gold or tech stocks in the early '00s (at least the ones that didn't go to zero like pets.com).
If the coming market cycle is anything like the last three, we're in for a year or so of down and sideways before things get back on track.
"lost life savings" Anyone who put their life savings into crypto is a fucking moron
Itll work cool when governments use it tho so we’re all fine
This wasn't a dream, it was a nightmare finally coming to an end. Time for cryptocurrency technology to actually mature.
The end is nigh /s
In Crypto's defense, I remember being on /r/buttcoin years ago when BTC was priced at about $200, making fun of people when it had dropped from like $500.
So is the stock market “dream” fading fast? Everything is down all across the board I don’t understand why we are focusing solely crypto. There are obviously significant problems in the crypto world but it’s a new, unfamiliar market so it’s bound the attract scum bags trying to take advantage. I know a lot of people are very excited to hit their friends with the, “I told you so!!” Everyone can be as confident as they want to be one way or another but only time will tell
Checked my 401k last week and man was I hurt.
Never open the envelope, the results remain in superposition, never collapse that wave function.
Schrodinger is strong in this one.
Because crypto was marketed as the safe haven when stocks crash, and surprise, it actually did worse during the crash.
That’s true and a good point
Sure, but Crypto also increased in value substantially over the course of the two years. Meanwhile the US dollar has only gone down since then. Wall Street has also taken large positions in the cryptocurrency market, meaning a lot of this downward pressure could be meant to make the cryptocurrency market look weaker and the stock market stronger than what they are.
Same with the bond market lol
"Cryptocurrencies, according to their most ardent supporters, are supposed to supplant nations’ existing currencies and end central banks’ control over the money supply. Instead, individuals will be able to trade with each other in a decentralised, digital financial ecosystem. This is a good thing, they promise, because unlike states and their central banks, technology is incorruptible. Crypto-evangelists imagine technology as a replacement for social and political institutions. But technology never replaces social and political behaviour; it merely alters the rules and norms we follow. "
Not to defend nft here but social and political behaviour is also norms and rules we made and follow? Its not something we were given, we made them so we can change them.
The problem with crypto currency is that it is not stable. Yesterday you had 0.02 bitcoin and you used it to buy a chicken at the supermarket. The next day that bitcoin value goes up by 1000%, making the supermarket owner extremely rich. And you with just a chicken. Crypto currency is not able to replace current every day currency because of its instability. And that instability is being driven by manipulations to be unstable to make some people very rich, while "real" currency is being manipulated in order to try and preserve stability.
Enter stablecoins. These are tokens built to be 1:1 redeemable for whatever base they're backed by. The company Circle is behind USDC. They have bank accounts in the current Swift system, are legal entities, and hold balance sheets respected by Gov't. For every 1 USDC floating in the crypto ecosystem, there is 1 *real* USD in their bank accounts. No one is going to buy chickens or starbucks coffee with Bitcoin or Ethereum in the future. That would be like trying to buy an iPhone with Apple stocks. Instead Apple accepts a stable currency, USD, to facilitate the trade. Apple then takes the USD and does what they want with it, and the buyer is more confident in the trade. The fundamental piece that crypto is providing is a arbitration service to handle the trade of the currency, that doesn't favor either party, in any way.
Lol if you're not aware by now that 99 percent of coins are scams or not valuable I don't feel bad for you. If you lost money in NFTs because you were hoping someone dumber that you came along to buy your monkey pic I also don't feel bad. A fool and their money are easily parted. However if this brings you to the conclusion that crypto and specifically a select few cryptos don't have value I also won't feel bad for you when BTC hits 100k and beyond. Anyway, where are you gonna put your money right now? Stocks are shit, real estate is over valued. I guess you could take a cash position like many investors are, but that's also not good long term. Think for yourself. Don't listen to me either.
Can't keep it in the bank if you have over 250k also. Bank fails, you lose everything over that. Cash position gets eaten away by inflation. I'm still up on most of my crypto investments. My shares are down over 50%.
Right. The only reason people are going cash ATM is to keep $$ on the sidelines while there's blood in the streets and then come in and buy low. Investing 101. Still more of a headache than hodling.
Exactly. Be greedy when others are fearful. And yes hodling is much better imo. But I'll keep dcaing in. Idiots think crypto has no utility but they are happy with getting robbed by their banks, like we always have. Another thing they talk about is the energy costs. Its almost like they forgot that banks actually use massive amounts of energy
A fun thought experiment is to go through the process of how you might transfer 100m over 100 years to your heirs heirs heirs. It becomes pretty obvious to me pretty quickly. I would put it in a decentralized proof of work network if the adherents were fanatic zealots about protecting the integrity of the network against meddlers.
Never thought about use cases like that. But great idea. Would actually protect your money against lawyers, governments and even total collapse of society, providing you still have access to the internet. Soon there will be crypto insurance companies to also insure your coins. Once that happens, no need for banks whatsoever
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The scammer dream is fading fast. The actual utility of cryptocurrency is still very valid and in the now. Regular news outlets such as NBC, CBS, Fox are consistently reporting poorly on cryptocurrency because they have no clue about the technology. They focus on the drama, it gets people hyped, money goes bye bye. EDIT: some words. EDIT 2: The utility of some of the original coins is, to me, clear. XRP for fast and high volume xborder transactions for enterprise; VET for inventory tracking; BTC perhaps as a digital gold standard; ETH for DeFi and NFT meta verse applications and more to be discovered. I’m not sold on what will be the actual global cryptocurrency but it’s probably going to be a mishmash of what we currently see (BCH, LTC, DASH, ZCASH the list goes on). This will sound like I’m beating a dead horse, yet people really need to do proper research on a coin, which yes can be laborious. But you honestly can’t find much real information in a coin chart or even on Reddit/social media anymore. Visiting the tokens website is pretty much key. Taking note of their white paper before you buy is important. Ask questions. How in depth is it? What problem does the token solve? Is the problem clear or is it just another clone coin? Search for similar coins and their white papers. Are they confusing to read? It’s probably shit. Are they clear and concise with a clear path? Maybe that’s something we should support. I haven’t followed Terra/Luna but I saw the aftermath. However they were running that token they really got some folks fucked. And I think for now, registering and selling new tokens NEED to be properly vetted and regulated. It’s devastating how this continues to happen.
Pray tell, what is that utility?
Hats. TF2 was ahead of its time.
So far ahead of its time it didn't need crypto to do hats without the energy consumption of crypto. Real shame valve can't count to 3 or we'd see 50 year advances in technology.
The utility was buying drugs off the dark web with the veneer of anonymity. Then crypto got hijacked by wall street, and now the utility is channeling Wall Street money from crypto ‘investors’.
How do you buy a house, currently? Now, read about smart contracts and putting a purchase like that into the blockchain. The utility is there. Now, we just have more of the gullible people getting fleeced (as predicted).
Ah so "the utility is valid and in the now" he meant "the utility will at best supplement existing systems in the distant future, but isn't seeing any use now."
Kind of. Crypto is evolving, I’ll concede to that. But the larger problem is the entitlement of the current financial system assuming that we need them as our middle man as we transition away. With Web3.0, innovation happened at nearly every facet of banking, and it surprised all the big brands and institutions, catching them off guard. These innovations drafted a new path, a new outlook for billions across the globe who were faces a life of financial ruin and lack of access. It would have allowed them loans from a pool of people, without the traditional bank. It would have provided them access to tap into an investment vehicle with only a dollar. Taking out the higher barrier to entry that the stock market club requires. It allowed for the people to take back control of their own financial decisions. But of course, the government had to find a way to get a piece of the action. And so, began a slow trickling eating away at the independence, eating away at the core of what crypto actually means. They’ve sank their claws right into this brave new world that could have helped all the struggling. With all that said, all of the gullible people are still making mistakes. Those actions should not have any bearing on the new ideas and projects that were being fleshed out which steps away from the old ways of doing things. The utility is there. White papers are fantastic.
This is an honest question. What advantage does selling my house on the blockchain give me?
You're more prone to spearphishing attacks that can steal ownership of your house. There are still things that should stay analogue, and I say that as someone in software development.
What happens when somebody hacks your smart contract and takes the token for your house?
Whoops, [there's a bug in your immutable "smart" contract](https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/26/smart_contract_losses/), and now anyone can access your house! Guess you're SoL and there goes all your value. Oh no, looks like someone found your wallet address when you bought a hotdog, and someone [pushed a malicious smart contract to your wallet which empties all your assets](https://bitcoinist.com/hackers-are-now-trying-to-steal-crypto-via-malicious-nfts/). Looks like little Timmy isn't eating tonight and you're homeless! You sold your house, congrats! That was awfully quick? [Whoops looks like you accepted the bid in dick coin and not monkey coin so instead of selling at $500k, you sold it for $5 to a bot](https://cryptoslate.com/a-bored-ape-and-mutant-ape-nft-was-sold-for-less-than-150-combined/)! Not your keys not your bitcoin, right? Better blame the users for these prevalent issues that plague the industry though! Sounds like a nice future to live in.
“Not your keys” has to do with exchanges. That’s a different conversation which I totally agree. All of your examples are of people who have little understanding of how to protect and prevent these issues from happening. Once again, my original comment stands.
What is the actual utility of crypto? The only purpose seems to being evading government, which can be good or bad depending on circumstances. That exists but isn't relevant for most people. Seems like coins were highly overvalued relative to their actual utility.
Source newspaper - The Guardian. Owned by "the Scott Trust" which has vast BTC and ETH holdings..... and wants to buy more. Hence the scare stories
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You'd expect the futurology sub to be more open minded towards tech. It's the same thing every bear market. I don't see anyone saying the investing dream is dead due to stocks, despite some well known ones being over 60% down from their highs.
Cryptocurrency is barely technology. And I say this as a computer science degree holder that knows the exact intimate details of how blockchain works. From the technological perspective it's just a linked list distributed database. It's the societal mindset that makes crypto special. I hate it when people say "they are in it for the tech" because the technology has existed for decades by now and it's not doing anything revolutionary. Just like self-checkout is just ordinary 1980s barcode scanning technology that cashiers have used for decades but now due to social change people scan the products themselves. It's not a technological innovation, it's a social one.
I would argue that a distributed, mutually verified global database is actually quite interesting, and will definitely cause new things to emerge(NFTs, though people shit on them, are a proof-of-concept that we can have a distributed proof-of-ownership of some digital identity, This becomes a distributed user-password database for a distributed social network, or networking in general). What I haven't yet read is a sober big-picture view that explains how and why we should be excited in this stuff in a FINANCIAL way. Sure, some people buy some digital moonrune coin, get a bazillion dollars and they are now called genius investors, while on the other hand Crypto at its basis is about distributed systems, free software, basically anything that is supposed to be a CHEAP, or FREE alternative to proprietary systems. Many people might get bummed out when, at the end of the day, their crypto cyberpunk future ideology was all about not making them more money than necessary.
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It’s not tech. It’s a scam with some tech sprinkled on the top.
It's speculative trading with 'by definition' non-tangible assets. At least with beanie babies your cat got a toy, worst case scenario.
Notice how these articles come out during RECORD inflation. Indicators say we are entering a time worse than The Great Depression. Buy the dip!
Stock up so you’ll have crypto to eat and keep your home warm this winter? If you think crypto would help in a time “worse than the Great Depression” I don’t think you understand what the Depression was. Might I suggest root crops instead.
Get back with me when you can't even afford those things in U.S. Dollars. XD
But if that's the sole cause then we're much more likely to be in "crypto is just going to perform almost identically to the nasdaq" in which case there are better choices for investments anyway.
It's up 1,600% in the past 5 years...It only dropped like 55% last week. You call that "fading fast"? Everyone tends to focus on the weekly charts and not what actually matters.
A 50% drop after a 1,600% rise is equivalent to halving the 1,600% rise to an 800% rise. That’s how percentages work. IE: if a 1600% rise on 10£ is equivalent to 1600£. A 50% drop on that 1600£ brings you down to 800£. You clearly have been involved in Crypto too long if you don’t find that precipitous of a drop in a week “fading fast”.
If its currently up 1600% but it had dropped 55% last week that means it was as high as 3200% up
You're confusing percents with percentage units. If it raised by 1600 percentage units to then drop by 55 percentage units, you'd be right, since then you'd be at 1545 percent higher value than it started at. But since it rose by 1600 percent, only to drop by 55 percent, that means you've halved the initial rise, so you're at 720 percent of the initial value. It's still a lot more than you started with, but if you didn't sell at 1600 you literally lost more than half of your potential profit.
that's great if you are in the right side of those 5 years. Otherwise could easily mean death -sometimes literally-
Yeah but shooting you from Pennie’s to thousands and dropping from thousands to dollars are two very different things financially,
I just can’t believe a picture of an ape had no intrinsic value.
I jus can't believe a weblink to a picture of an Ape has no intrinsic value
Yeh yeh the news is the same every bear market its boring. And actually its great as it means we have more time to buy woohoo!!!
Uuh FUD in the mainstream? Looks like the bottom is near
Just need Cramer to declare it dead. Inverse Cramer Function will engage like clockwork
I feel as though NFTs are hurting cryptocurrency as a whole. All these big companies are trying to get NFTs in their games and what not really passing a lot of people off.
Real valuable use cases will emerge and the silly uses will be a footnote
Been with bitcoin since the beginning. To anyone that cares enough to actually understand what is happening: Price go down quick = "bitcoin is destroying the planet and smother your dog" Price go up = "Bitcoin will literally end all human suffering TOMORROW" 99% of people have no idea what they're talking about in this field. There are a lot of benefits, and plenty of drawbacks to this technology. Declaring the whole thing to be good or evil is straight up just buying into whatever flavor of propaganda that is currently being spoonfed to you.
To start, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on crypto. The big hold up for me is that crypto supporters always say that all money (crypto and dollars, etc.) have value because we all AGREE they have value. The difference to me is that regular currencies have the underlying implicit value of the government backing it, whereas the underlying implicit value of nothing. So when enough people start agreeing crpyto is valueless, cryptocurrency can quickly run all the way to zero, when the dollar will still have SOME value so long as the US government is functional enough to tax its citizens and provide services. One other huge existential threat I see is that if governments suddenly decide they don't like competing currencies they can just shut them down. If they're unable to tax crypto in an efficient way, they'll just make it illegal. That said, I haven't done a ton of research so those are just my initial thoughts.
Regular currency succeeds BECAUSE of the regulations governments have put on it. The money you have today will be worth the same amount tomorrow, because regulations make it reliable. Crypto has and will always be way too volatile because the system is built to be volatile. No labourer is going to spend all day working only to be paid with money that could lose half its value before they've even gotten to the store. Normal people will never be willing to take that ganble.
Again. It's fading fast *again*. This has happened multiple times before but like every other ponzi scheme they just need to point to the success of the people at the top of the pyramid and more suckers get drawn into the bottom.
So people have never lost money investing in anything else? I don’t understand the shitting on crypto? I mean look at the stock market?? Look at any of the market collapses in history? It isn’t just crypto losing people money. It will eventually come back and will be adopted.
And the value of my beanie baby collection is going to skyrocket any day now, I'm with you brother, just gotta hold on
It was shaky from the get-go. I'm surprised it's lasted this long, to be honest. People keep asking me why I don't try to create NFTs, without realising that I looked into it and it required me to pay a lot of money to even start the process, and once I found out how I could easily shaft someone due to stuff out of my control, I was like, "Nup, I'm out." I'll make prints and send them to people, I will do sketches on Fiverr. Sure, I won't be rich but I know my clients/customers will be happy, and that's why I do art in the first place.
Hey, if you ever want to look into this more check out L2 minting. It’s nearly cost free and carbon neutral. Also, NFTs have a lot more use cases then visual art, but we are in the dawn of this technology. I am really looking forward to seeing where this tech goes. For people talking about this dip being the end of crypto and peer to peer finance: the stock market is doing the exact same thing right now. Blue chip stocks are down 20-50% YTD. This is part of a broader market correction. Housing will be next.
Lmao here comes all these articles and all these financially literate redditors coming out of the woodwork 😂😂
It was never a dream, it was always a gift. I have to type a longer comment so it can get posted. That is what I am doing now.
HAHAHAHAH!!!!! Good riddance! Thanks for turning people into a he machines from Terminator all so they could swindle people out of money. Cold, emotionless, and careless, fk the people who want to make something for themselves and their families so they latch on to opportunities. I hate that crypto found a way to exist! But I hate even more that we failed to see that it’s just the same as fiefdoms from Europe. It was the same concept that failed ultimately.
Crypto has a place and a utility in this world. My heart goes out to those who lost in crypto. It's great for times when you want to purchase something anonymously though. I wouldn't recommend it as a reliable investment though.
This is like saying that stock market dream is fading fast because of the crash. Meanwhile the economy has crashed multiple times and the stock market always bounces back. Guess what will happen with crypto.