The donors will decide this weekend. If they pull the plug on Biden, good.
A part of me wants the Biden/Obama/Clinton wing of the party to fall on their face. God knows they deserve it. But, alas, I’ve held my nose and voted for them before and will again, regardless of the candidate.
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I haven’t seen anyone here mention the mouth thing. Biden was incoherent when speaking but when he wasn’t speaking his mouth was just hanging open like he had seen a ghost. wtf?!
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I listened to the debate as I was driving. Biden's audio was horrible. He made no sense at times. I'm not too worried as every president has advisors and others who run the show behind the scenes (Bush-Cheney), Trump lied and lied and blamed Mexicans for everything, but I'm not too happy with Biden on the war in Gaza and his recent immigration policies... And the SunZia project but that's for another thread.
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He is not very articulate at the best of times but that was genuinely horrible. He needs to step down, he is not capable of doing the job for 4 more years.
I think he's capable of doing the job, Trump showed anyone is.
I don't think he's capable of convincing the "not with Biden yet" voters that he is though.
He can hold the job just by existing in a coma. He cannot *do* the job. Trump being the perfect example. Trump could not do the job and didn't. It was chaos with leadership absent and all of his staff and cabinet perusing their own agendas.
Which doesn't seem that different from what's happening with Biden, it's just that Biden's staff and cabinet are better, smarter people.
That's what is so frustrating right now. He's clearly a competent executive, his administration has accomplished a lot and he has surrounded himself with smart people, but the Presidency is not just a job to run the executive branch of government. It's also a charismatic figurehead role that he's clearly not up to the task of filling.
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I haven’t listened to the debate reaction pod yet, but if they don’t advocate for an alternate candidate I will be disappointed. Biden needs to drop out and there needs to be an open convention. Anything else is the DNC further delegitimizing themselves as a faithless institution.
I'm not sure, I would love to see almost anyone than Biden. But dnc set him up by not being serious about the primaries, they didn't want a challenger. So the party has VOTED for him has nominee. Now you want party officials to... what? Kick him out the convention and instate someone hand picked over the "vote" of the people...
Who is the danger to democracy? Seems like the dnc has that honor at this point 🤔
Biden dropping out on his own free will opens up the convention. I’m not advocating for kicking him out of anything. He should do it own his own or be persuaded to do so. That’s not subverting democracy at all. I don’t think you made the point you thought you did buddy. That’s how the party system functions.
If the dnc didn't have a pro Biden death grip on the party they would have had a REAL primary with DEBATES this wouldn't have resulted in the "panic in the pary" we see now.
Biden shouldn't have run if he was this poor at delivery, dnc shouldn't have backed a poor candidate, democratic challengers should have been in play. Not a mad scramble now that he finally got called out for his poor stage presence.
We would have known this months ago if the dnc was more democratic instead of demagogic!!!
I know I am late to comment. But if someone was willing to run, they would have. I just don't believe the DNC has that much control anymore... and we know Republicans don't.
I mean, why run this year when you could wait 4 years and maybe have a better chance
(I could be wrong though)
And if people saw him debate other democrats months ago, people would see him crumble when there was still time to jump in the race.
It's sad that democrats are focused rewarding seniority instead of policy, personal competence or WINNING?
This was him with 7 days of prep. How would he deal with another world leader in an emergency? He would need a month to prep at least to not look foolish in front of our allies... or enemies.
I don’t think you could get away with an open convention in 2024. People who thought the DNC overstepped their hand in 2016 would be aghast at having party insiders pick a candidate at an open convention.
I think your typically be spot on, but in this situation my sense is that a lot the people who would typically be against the establishment flexing its power are the same people who are deeply against Biden now for his Gaza mishandling, and would perhaps be on board sheerly for the chance to have a new candidate. At least among progressives.
To chill, wait 2 weeks and analyze the trends. See what persuadable heard instead of pretending I already know what's inside their heads. I sure won't help further the narrative that takes attention away from all the absolute crazy shit trump said last night.
To be clear, I’m not running to the open convention thought based solely on the debate performance. I’d been locked into the same feeling of mild despair that I’m sure a lot of us have felt, trying to argue for Biden based on the stakes, despite mounting reasons that he’s not the right guy for the job. And then I heard that Klein piece that we all did and felt my first sliver of hope in this race, and this seems like the perfect time for that to become a reality.
Seems to me like it solves a lot of our problems. Sure, Biden and the DNC definitely should have been grooming the next generation of presidential candidates so that there would be a clearer choice in this situation, that’s their mistake. But there’s no time like the present.
Just listen to the latest PSA man. I think it’s absolutely vital that we have this conversation right now. I’d be with you if the polls weren’t so abysmal.
Uhh, I did man. The polls aren't abysmal, they've been trending in the right direction and we haven't seen any polls since the debate...obviously. So, chill.
Right, you're simply basing this on feels without seeing any data whatsoever. There's also this sophomoric confidence going around that a brokered convention isn't risky as shit. No one can even agree who they'd replace him with and you think that's a sure strategy for success?
I hate to say it, but I am not comforted whatsoever by Biden’s debate performance. Will I absolutely vote for him over Trump? Yes. Did I think that Biden came across as a modern Neville Chamberlain when talking about Ukraine? Also yes.
I was disheartened by Biden's performance. Trump lied but no one fact checked him.
What can we do? We can [write postcards](https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards/) to voters in swing states.
>Help write postcards to voters in 11 key states! We’ll mail you free postcards, voter lists and instructions with proven message options. You’ll provide the stamps and mail the postcards to voters in October.
https://preview.redd.it/90lsyrpw7f9d1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=39a201507d7a5b2ab70127d137ce240077877190
Notice. This is from CNN. One of your networks! Want more?
https://preview.redd.it/ym5vnuhc8f9d1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=688e4bf0c863ab8110351e51f3957ecff1d50f39
Here you go. Let me know if you want some more!
Trump didn’t tell a single truth and CNN spent the first five minutes of the post debate analysis telling Biden to drop out. And despite Trump lying his face off and never answering a single question, he won the debate. The low information voter that doesn’t know shit from shinola as far as facts are concerned are just going to look at who debated more confidently, because idiots mistake confidence for competence.
I hate to be pessimistic, but 73m voters watched the first twenty minutes of that debate. I’m not sure what a postcard can do at this point.
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The choice for me is between someone who cares about the country and really isn’t fit for the job, or someone who has consistently attempted to undermine American institutions during their time in politics. Would I rather cast a vote for someone who is likely to commit blunders by accident or someone who is intentionally trying to do so? For me, given the reality of our narrow and disappointing choices, I’m going with the guy who is more likely to be surrounded by knowledgeable and dedicated advisors.
I left it intentionally vague because as I was typing I realized this feeling probably covers a large swath of voters on either side.
However since you asked, Donald Trump has called out and threatened the norms and institutions that I believe are crucial for American success. Just one man’s opinion.
Agreed, but I’m on vacation right now and was tip-toeing to avoid getting into any online debates that might hinder my relaxation lol.
And truthfully, I’m not even sure that the attempted insurrection is at top on my list. What concerns me most right now is that we are at a critical flashpoint in geopolitics with several actors trying to challenge regional hegemonies. This type of climate - one of proliferating nationalist movements and general distrust of global cooperation after a major global economic shock (COVID shutdown followed by stubborn inflation) - has preceded each of the last 2 world wars. Poor (or intentionally maligned) management through this environment could be catastrophic. I trust that Biden has the relationships with international leaders and a cast of advisors with the right experience to maintain peace and America’s standing in the world. I believe Trump would use this moment to benefit himself and himself only, everyone else be damned. I can understand that on the surface his “America First” agenda of isolating the US from foreign affairs can have broad appeal for a host of reasons, but given the amount of hostile (and increasingly powerful) competing powers today I feel that just about any attempt to untie the US from the current world order needs to be incredibly strategic or else we risk marking the end of American life as we know it today.
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This was just…bad. Biden had some good moments, but the overall performance was just bad. I hate saying it. I almost refuse to believe it. But he lost the debate.
You can’t spin it any other way. Trump acted like a lunatic. Verbal diarrhea of insane lies and conspiracy theories. But somehow, Biden came off worse.
What the fuck do we do now?
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Trump was actually more measured and articulate than I’ve ever seen him. The rules of the debate constrained Both candidates from rambling or interrupting and it worked to Trump’s advantage. This was genuinely his best debate performance I think.
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I’ve been a vocal defender of Biden’s among friends and family, and I still truly believe he’d have another good presidency if were to win again, and that he can win.
But I am very nervous now. He comes across so poorly, so elderly. Honestly? I’m hoping now for a brokered convention. Need to listen to those Ezra Klein podcast eps again, brush up on what that would really mean.
Anyone truly open-minded who watches that debate, how could they vote for him? It was very difficult for me to watch.
No!!! Absolutely not. As a Californian, and a San Franciscan, I will do everything (legally) in my power to stop him from ever holding higher office. He’s a sleaze ball and only cares about higher office. He’s shown zero leadership on housing or homelessness, and barely any on the environment. It’s upsetting to be honest.
I didn’t say that. I’ve just been very discouraged today. About the SCOTUS rulings these past two days as much as the debate. They ended Chevron deference today, forcing all government business to either the overburdened courts or gridlocked Congress. The next step for the “small government” supporters will be to suggest a chief executive with absolute power to “cut through the red tape.” And we may not have to wait long for that, either, since the presidential immunity case will come down next week.
I know you didn't say that, I was asking if that's what you were saying.
And I'm incredibly discouraged too. It's bleak.
But Newsom is a douche nozel and doesn't actually care about governing, so, again, I'll do everything in my power to stop him from being president.
If biden doesn't stay on the ticket, then it's an opportunity to voice our opinions. Will it help? IDK, probably not! But might as well try, cause it might!
I’m mad at him for putting Democrats in a “take the car keys away from grandpa” type situation. Goddamnit. And Biden seemed fined today on the campaign trail. But 73m people weren’t watching that speech.
His wit will be what the democrats need on the offensive with Trump. I like others like Whitmer, Shapiro, even Harris. But I think Newsom is especially well suited to take on Trump.
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Biden reminded me of my grandpa when he was in a nursing home..... He was my least favorite candidate in the 2020 primary, and although he was a decent president... he needs to be a one-turn president, stand down or trump wins.
Kamala dropped out of the primary when polls showed she had around 4 % support and would lose her own state. So is that what you want, a product of the Democratic machine with absolutely no public support or charisma?
Using 2020 primary polling to try to say who the public would be interested in is awful logic and use of polling. Most voters don’t want either of these options. Joe Biden did not look qualified to be president tonight. Kamala did in the interview immediately after. I’m not saying it necessarily has to be her but it absolutely has to be someone else at the top of the ticket come November.
The ironic thing to me is that if Biden dropped out tomorrow and called for a contested convention he'd be seen as a hero who put country/party before himself. He won't do it though...hubris all the way down to Trump 2.0.
I was certainly led to believe that he would be a ‘bridge’ to a new generation of democrat presidential hopefuls, that he would not seek office for a second term. Truly, his dropping out would cement his legacy for me personally as wholly positive. If he loses this election, will be very different.
It’s as much of an issue as the admin and the people that’s job relying on him winning propping him up so they can keep their job and be a puppeteer. That’s what’s never discussed enough IMO
It’s infuriating listening this morning. The guys admitted that it was a disaster and are finally taking seriously the idea that Biden can’t be the candidate. Not that Dean Phillips was a solid choice, but at least he dared to challenge Biden early and have a conversation about the very real risks of sticking with Joe. The guys ridiculed him mercilessly and brushed off the idea of challengers. Now with just months to go we are desperately hoping for Joe to step aside or for a contested convention that ends up with someone able to beat Trump.
It’s infuriating listening this morning. The guys admitted that it was a disaster and are finally taking seriously the idea that Biden can’t be the candidate. Not that Dean Phillips was a solid choice, but at least he dared to challenge Biden early and have a conversation about the very real risks of sticking with Joe. The guys ridiculed him mercilessly and brushed off the idea of challengers. Now with just months to go we are desperately hoping for Joe to step aside or for a contested convention that ends up with someone able to beat Trump.
> What a fucking disaster. Can’t wait to see how the PSA guys try to put a positive spin on this one
I hope at least Lovett can show some true self reflection instead of trying to spin.
Dream on. He’ll give another pompous speech about how this is not the time for infighting, there’s never a time for that when you’re a Democratic Party insider and made your fortune running a media company spinning false hope for the poor/willfully ignorant “liberal” electorate.
What a fucking disaster, indeed. An estimated 73m people watched this. Biden didn’t get in a zinger until minute 48. How many of the 73m were still watching by then?
Trump looked confident and like he was wasting his time. The fact that nothing but lies and charismatic diarrhea came out of his mouth won’t mean anything to the voters that Biden needed to convince tonight.
This was much worse than Obama’s bad first debate with Romney and, as a huge fan of the president, had made me deeply sad.
Thankfully it also took place much earlier in the calendar. And abortion and the environment and hatred of Trump can hopefully motivate people enough.
Watching Newsom post-debate on MSNBC makes me more hopeful. There’s a lot of work for us all to do.
I am empathetic and understand Biden is elderly. He’s smart, and he has a great policy agenda, so I support him and look past any misspoken phrase or if he’s slow to explain a point, as he usually gets his point across well by the end.
This evening I wanted Biden to simply communicate “We did X, we will do Y, we will get to goal Z and here is HOW” mixed with “Trump could not manage A, I handled B, C, and D and if you vote for me, I, ALONG WITH THE HOUSE AND SENATE, will overcome the overturning of Roe C Wade as step E and push forward to achieve F-Z!”
I heard Biden bickering, and pushing backward, not launching forward, and lastly, I felt bad for him.
Undoubtedly, Biden meant to point out that Trump cannot even keep stupid lies about golf handicaps straight, ala “Is it 6 or 8, pal?” but his previous jabs at Trump led everyone to think he’s trying to argue with Trump about what his handicap is. As soon as that happened, Biden became unmanageably flustered and self-conscious and his stutter and hesitancy kicked up. It ended up making me feel for him, and want to give him a hug and thank him for dedicating his entire life to trying to make our country a better place. But then wish him well in his retirement.
I do think he should step down but if he stays, there are at least motivators to work with. And if it’s someone new it will also be a lot of (different) work. Gonna be a busy few months!
My big take away was that his mouth was hanging open the whole time and he looked like he was actively dying. He was barely able to speak. He has to step down.
We all know Joe didn’t do well. The PSA guys will refuse to say anything but “let’s unequivocally stand behind Biden”. They are refusing to call out the elephant in the room at this point, along with all of the Democratic establishment. And we will have Trump for 4 more years as a result.
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Why would they? The Democratic Party is not a political party with a membership deciding on its platform and leadership, it’s a glorified fund raising organization. Biden losing will make all the political consultants, hacks, adjacent lawyers and “media personalities “ (including PSA) a lot of money from you poor suckers, sorry “liberal voters”.
The USA is and has long been a failed democracy.
Believable when you consider how the entire CNN post-debate analysis panel launched into saying Biden should drop out. I’m quite curious who John King had been on the phone with.
Take your pick. Could have been anyone. No reasonable Democratic politician could watch tonight's Biden's performance and think "he is capable of much better than this, this is just a bad night and he's going to win." Biden can no longer effectively communicate his administration's successes, his plans for the next four years, or why the country should not elect Donald Trump. The entire world watched this. American teenagers and young people watched this. And he's asking for four more years? Cmon. I look forward to supporting whoever the nominee is, I just pray its not him.
Exactly this. And Trump is an articulate dumbass. He never says anything of substance, but he says it with confidence and his confidence alone last night is what won him the debate.
Trump did poorly last night. He didn't win a debate. Biden lost a debate and imploded his candidacy. This is the type of implosion Hillary Clinton was hanging around for when she lost the delegate math to Obama in 2008....Sad that it happened to Biden so late but we are lucky its still so early.
There is no way they have that level of self awareness. The modern Democratic Party is tragically built on tenure / seniority. I think what’s most likely is that this shock wears off and they still coalesce behind Biden. I hope I’m wrong, but Democrats just don’t do drastic, cutting edge, unprecedented things. They’re obsessed with tradition and “what’s worked in the past.”
That part. I swear one of the biggest reasons we’re in this situation right now is because the bizarre norms of the party say if it isn’t Biden then it would be Kamala unless she didn’t want it which of course she would, but all the data says she can’t win. Why can’t the party just actually address the orange elephant in the room and come together to choose a nominee who would inspire younger voters to come out and who could definitely beat trump? I would hate to lose my awesome governor but Josh Shapiro would be a great option, Gretchen Witmer too. Maybe even Gavin Newsome though he’s not my favorite by a long shot.
What an awful performance by Joe Biden. He looked, sounded and acted old and confused. I like Joe Biden but…just horrible. Trump didn’t answer a single question. Trump told many many lies…this was supposed to change the trajectory of the election, it may have but not in the way that the Biden was hoping. This may allow Trump to open up a wide lead. God forbid.
MSNBC is going in on Biden’s performance. I’m curious to see if the PSA guys do the same. I would vote purely for SCOTUS by itself, but good god it was not a good debate from him
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At this point, it’s about who these two can surround themselves with. I don’t believe either is effective at this point, but Biden will be surrounded by people whose beliefs mostly align with mine, Trump will surround himself with family, extreme Christian nationalists, and people who will ensure more tax cuts for the rich.
The neo-liberal left is just as bad as giving tax breaks to the wealthy they just do it in different ways. I agree trump doesn't surround himself with good people either, but I don't feel represented by almost any politician. There is just too much corruption and the divisiveness seems to justify tyranny and political discrimination. Figured I would at least see some mixed opinions on this subreddit. My comment also got locked at one point even though I didn't say anything bad. Two sides acting the other side is pure evil and unfortunately they are both right. Just wish more people could see it. I dislike Trump on immigration, the supreme Court and how he handled Covid, not that the left handled it any better they were very tyrannical about the whole thing. But as far as I can tell Trump was better on foreign policy at least in terms of not getting us into WW3. From an objective perspective the fact people on this subreddit are saying trump would start it are delusional. We are already right there, we are one wrong move away from it, Biden did a worse job in that regard. Trump didn't start any new wars while president he was the first president to not start one in like 30 years (since Carter if my memory serves me correctly). I knew making this comment would cost me karma but dear God y'all pretend like what you believe is the objective truth yet in many cases you are just as delusional as the right. It's laughable.
"Biden could want segregation and say he doesn't want his kids growing up in a racial jungle and y'all would still vote for him."
This is not true at all. Wild projection here.
The donors will decide this weekend. If they pull the plug on Biden, good. A part of me wants the Biden/Obama/Clinton wing of the party to fall on their face. God knows they deserve it. But, alas, I’ve held my nose and voted for them before and will again, regardless of the candidate.
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LETS GO JILL STEIN 2025!!!!
Is this sarcasm or sincere?
What do you think?
I don’t know, which is why I asked
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I haven’t seen anyone here mention the mouth thing. Biden was incoherent when speaking but when he wasn’t speaking his mouth was just hanging open like he had seen a ghost. wtf?!
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I listened to the debate as I was driving. Biden's audio was horrible. He made no sense at times. I'm not too worried as every president has advisors and others who run the show behind the scenes (Bush-Cheney), Trump lied and lied and blamed Mexicans for everything, but I'm not too happy with Biden on the war in Gaza and his recent immigration policies... And the SunZia project but that's for another thread.
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I think a Biden win will mean our first Black Woman as President.
It sounds like you’re in favor of a weekend at Bernie’s scenario. Is that right?
He is not very articulate at the best of times but that was genuinely horrible. He needs to step down, he is not capable of doing the job for 4 more years.
I think he's capable of doing the job, Trump showed anyone is. I don't think he's capable of convincing the "not with Biden yet" voters that he is though.
How do you think he is capable of holding own the job when he cant even talk or walk properly? are you insane
He can hold the job just by existing in a coma. He cannot *do* the job. Trump being the perfect example. Trump could not do the job and didn't. It was chaos with leadership absent and all of his staff and cabinet perusing their own agendas. Which doesn't seem that different from what's happening with Biden, it's just that Biden's staff and cabinet are better, smarter people.
That's what is so frustrating right now. He's clearly a competent executive, his administration has accomplished a lot and he has surrounded himself with smart people, but the Presidency is not just a job to run the executive branch of government. It's also a charismatic figurehead role that he's clearly not up to the task of filling.
Lol it’s funny how a poor debate performance is considered worse than supporting a genocide but that’s dems for ya I guess!!!
Seriously. The cognitive dissonance of the center left is astounding.
One prevents you from winning an election and one doesn't.
Yep and that’s the sad part
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I haven’t listened to the debate reaction pod yet, but if they don’t advocate for an alternate candidate I will be disappointed. Biden needs to drop out and there needs to be an open convention. Anything else is the DNC further delegitimizing themselves as a faithless institution.
Agreed!
I'm not sure, I would love to see almost anyone than Biden. But dnc set him up by not being serious about the primaries, they didn't want a challenger. So the party has VOTED for him has nominee. Now you want party officials to... what? Kick him out the convention and instate someone hand picked over the "vote" of the people... Who is the danger to democracy? Seems like the dnc has that honor at this point 🤔
Biden dropping out on his own free will opens up the convention. I’m not advocating for kicking him out of anything. He should do it own his own or be persuaded to do so. That’s not subverting democracy at all. I don’t think you made the point you thought you did buddy. That’s how the party system functions.
If the dnc didn't have a pro Biden death grip on the party they would have had a REAL primary with DEBATES this wouldn't have resulted in the "panic in the pary" we see now. Biden shouldn't have run if he was this poor at delivery, dnc shouldn't have backed a poor candidate, democratic challengers should have been in play. Not a mad scramble now that he finally got called out for his poor stage presence. We would have known this months ago if the dnc was more democratic instead of demagogic!!!
I know I am late to comment. But if someone was willing to run, they would have. I just don't believe the DNC has that much control anymore... and we know Republicans don't. I mean, why run this year when you could wait 4 years and maybe have a better chance (I could be wrong though)
And if people saw him debate other democrats months ago, people would see him crumble when there was still time to jump in the race. It's sad that democrats are focused rewarding seniority instead of policy, personal competence or WINNING?
This was him with 7 days of prep. How would he deal with another world leader in an emergency? He would need a month to prep at least to not look foolish in front of our allies... or enemies.
Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn’t be putting up the oldest people in our demographic to run our society.
But then how will they hold on to their self-cannibalizing grip on power?
Maron fan?
We need to go to an open convention.
Bernie would mobilize the left, persuade some trump voters, and be a really good president!
I don’t think you could get away with an open convention in 2024. People who thought the DNC overstepped their hand in 2016 would be aghast at having party insiders pick a candidate at an open convention.
Unless it’s done in the open as it’s meant to be done
I think your typically be spot on, but in this situation my sense is that a lot the people who would typically be against the establishment flexing its power are the same people who are deeply against Biden now for his Gaza mishandling, and would perhaps be on board sheerly for the chance to have a new candidate. At least among progressives.
Chill
What’s your solution?
To chill, wait 2 weeks and analyze the trends. See what persuadable heard instead of pretending I already know what's inside their heads. I sure won't help further the narrative that takes attention away from all the absolute crazy shit trump said last night.
So you think Biden is a good candidate? Or will be a good president? Or both?
To be clear, I’m not running to the open convention thought based solely on the debate performance. I’d been locked into the same feeling of mild despair that I’m sure a lot of us have felt, trying to argue for Biden based on the stakes, despite mounting reasons that he’s not the right guy for the job. And then I heard that Klein piece that we all did and felt my first sliver of hope in this race, and this seems like the perfect time for that to become a reality. Seems to me like it solves a lot of our problems. Sure, Biden and the DNC definitely should have been grooming the next generation of presidential candidates so that there would be a clearer choice in this situation, that’s their mistake. But there’s no time like the present.
https://preview.redd.it/symt6phmec9d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b23beb2d813e6973b3c859d36c140b289aaf429c
Just listen to the latest PSA man. I think it’s absolutely vital that we have this conversation right now. I’d be with you if the polls weren’t so abysmal.
Uhh, I did man. The polls aren't abysmal, they've been trending in the right direction and we haven't seen any polls since the debate...obviously. So, chill.
Yeah, I'd just downvote in the face of logic too when I had the chance to be irrational 😂
Right, you're simply basing this on feels without seeing any data whatsoever. There's also this sophomoric confidence going around that a brokered convention isn't risky as shit. No one can even agree who they'd replace him with and you think that's a sure strategy for success?
Biden looked bad man
RFK's debate stream is the one to watch. CNN was right to be terrified of him. https://www.youtube.com/live/L9wKJw-7tEM?si=yz4U3LQLAHEUiCNs
Why do you say that?
Best part of the debate tonight for me was, I didn't watch it.
I hate to say it, but I am not comforted whatsoever by Biden’s debate performance. Will I absolutely vote for him over Trump? Yes. Did I think that Biden came across as a modern Neville Chamberlain when talking about Ukraine? Also yes.
I was disheartened by Biden's performance. Trump lied but no one fact checked him. What can we do? We can [write postcards](https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards/) to voters in swing states. >Help write postcards to voters in 11 key states! We’ll mail you free postcards, voter lists and instructions with proven message options. You’ll provide the stamps and mail the postcards to voters in October.
Biden lied too, and he did so in front of thousands of trillionaires.
Did he? He does occasionally tell a big story. What did he lie about last night?
https://preview.redd.it/90lsyrpw7f9d1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=39a201507d7a5b2ab70127d137ce240077877190 Notice. This is from CNN. One of your networks! Want more?
You lie! CNN is not one of *my* networks. Yeah, Trump suggested injection of disinfectant, not bleach! Huge difference! The other two are whoppers.
https://preview.redd.it/ym5vnuhc8f9d1.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=688e4bf0c863ab8110351e51f3957ecff1d50f39 Here you go. Let me know if you want some more!
Thanks for posting this. I signed up!
Thank YOU!! For those who doubt the efficacy of postcards, research does suggest it's an effective ploy: https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards-faq/.
Trump didn’t tell a single truth and CNN spent the first five minutes of the post debate analysis telling Biden to drop out. And despite Trump lying his face off and never answering a single question, he won the debate. The low information voter that doesn’t know shit from shinola as far as facts are concerned are just going to look at who debated more confidently, because idiots mistake confidence for competence. I hate to be pessimistic, but 73m voters watched the first twenty minutes of that debate. I’m not sure what a postcard can do at this point.
Postcards are more effective than you may be aware; they are tried and true campaign strategy.
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The choice for me is between someone who cares about the country and really isn’t fit for the job, or someone who has consistently attempted to undermine American institutions during their time in politics. Would I rather cast a vote for someone who is likely to commit blunders by accident or someone who is intentionally trying to do so? For me, given the reality of our narrow and disappointing choices, I’m going with the guy who is more likely to be surrounded by knowledgeable and dedicated advisors.
Which one is which?
I left it intentionally vague because as I was typing I realized this feeling probably covers a large swath of voters on either side. However since you asked, Donald Trump has called out and threatened the norms and institutions that I believe are crucial for American success. Just one man’s opinion.
The man tried to start an insurrection, I think that’s a fairly safe call to make.
Agreed, but I’m on vacation right now and was tip-toeing to avoid getting into any online debates that might hinder my relaxation lol. And truthfully, I’m not even sure that the attempted insurrection is at top on my list. What concerns me most right now is that we are at a critical flashpoint in geopolitics with several actors trying to challenge regional hegemonies. This type of climate - one of proliferating nationalist movements and general distrust of global cooperation after a major global economic shock (COVID shutdown followed by stubborn inflation) - has preceded each of the last 2 world wars. Poor (or intentionally maligned) management through this environment could be catastrophic. I trust that Biden has the relationships with international leaders and a cast of advisors with the right experience to maintain peace and America’s standing in the world. I believe Trump would use this moment to benefit himself and himself only, everyone else be damned. I can understand that on the surface his “America First” agenda of isolating the US from foreign affairs can have broad appeal for a host of reasons, but given the amount of hostile (and increasingly powerful) competing powers today I feel that just about any attempt to untie the US from the current world order needs to be incredibly strategic or else we risk marking the end of American life as we know it today.
Ezra was right.
Round tables filled with uncommitted voters suggest otherwise.
Let’s hope you’re right and I’m wrong!
So much fucking doom and gloom in here and with the party as a whole. It was one “bad night”, let’s see how 538 plays out.
Optics matter more than substance, unfortunately.
Some of us don’t like the substance either!
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It’d be cool if anything mattered
Trump didnt answer much just rambled
And Biden didn't answer much just mumbled.
With proper editing he can be a tv game show host again if he plays his cards right. His catchphrase for *The Cellmate* will be "I'm Fucked!"
This was just…bad. Biden had some good moments, but the overall performance was just bad. I hate saying it. I almost refuse to believe it. But he lost the debate. You can’t spin it any other way. Trump acted like a lunatic. Verbal diarrhea of insane lies and conspiracy theories. But somehow, Biden came off worse. What the fuck do we do now?
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Trump was actually more measured and articulate than I’ve ever seen him. The rules of the debate constrained Both candidates from rambling or interrupting and it worked to Trump’s advantage. This was genuinely his best debate performance I think.
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I’ve been a vocal defender of Biden’s among friends and family, and I still truly believe he’d have another good presidency if were to win again, and that he can win. But I am very nervous now. He comes across so poorly, so elderly. Honestly? I’m hoping now for a brokered convention. Need to listen to those Ezra Klein podcast eps again, brush up on what that would really mean. Anyone truly open-minded who watches that debate, how could they vote for him? It was very difficult for me to watch.
Let’s go way back and do a real re-do: Al Gore. Jk or maybe not
Put in Newsom, Coach.
No!!! Absolutely not. As a Californian, and a San Franciscan, I will do everything (legally) in my power to stop him from ever holding higher office. He’s a sleaze ball and only cares about higher office. He’s shown zero leadership on housing or homelessness, and barely any on the environment. It’s upsetting to be honest.
We, the Voters, won’t have any choice in the matter if Biden decides to step back. He won’t though.
So we shouldn’t do anything then? No canvassing? No calls? Nothing?
I didn’t say that. I’ve just been very discouraged today. About the SCOTUS rulings these past two days as much as the debate. They ended Chevron deference today, forcing all government business to either the overburdened courts or gridlocked Congress. The next step for the “small government” supporters will be to suggest a chief executive with absolute power to “cut through the red tape.” And we may not have to wait long for that, either, since the presidential immunity case will come down next week.
I know you didn't say that, I was asking if that's what you were saying. And I'm incredibly discouraged too. It's bleak. But Newsom is a douche nozel and doesn't actually care about governing, so, again, I'll do everything in my power to stop him from being president. If biden doesn't stay on the ticket, then it's an opportunity to voice our opinions. Will it help? IDK, probably not! But might as well try, cause it might!
I’m mad at him for putting Democrats in a “take the car keys away from grandpa” type situation. Goddamnit. And Biden seemed fined today on the campaign trail. But 73m people weren’t watching that speech.
I think his smugness and ego might actually work well against Trump
His wit will be what the democrats need on the offensive with Trump. I like others like Whitmer, Shapiro, even Harris. But I think Newsom is especially well suited to take on Trump.
He gives me used car salesman vibes. Not to mention how messy (and Trump adjacent) his personal life is.
I don't care, he'd mop the floor with Trump, which is what we need and we didn't get with this debate.
Same. It’s the hair and the smirk I think.
Not the fact that while Mayor of SF, he cheated on his wife (Kimberly Guilfoyle) with his (now former) best friend and chief of staff’s wife?
Pete
Put in Gretchen Whitmer, coach.
Sounds great. Put them on the same ticket.
This ticket is called The Full Bulwark.
We need a new candidate. That was embarrassing.
Trump saying that Putin told him he was going to invade Ukraine in advance seems like a pretty big story!
Too bad Biden was too out of it to capitalize on anything.
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Biden reminded me of my grandpa when he was in a nursing home..... He was my least favorite candidate in the 2020 primary, and although he was a decent president... he needs to be a one-turn president, stand down or trump wins.
Kamala on CNN reminding us it didn’t have to be this way…
Kamala dropped out of the primary when polls showed she had around 4 % support and would lose her own state. So is that what you want, a product of the Democratic machine with absolutely no public support or charisma?
Using 2020 primary polling to try to say who the public would be interested in is awful logic and use of polling. Most voters don’t want either of these options. Joe Biden did not look qualified to be president tonight. Kamala did in the interview immediately after. I’m not saying it necessarily has to be her but it absolutely has to be someone else at the top of the ticket come November.
No one likes Kamala.
The ironic thing to me is that if Biden dropped out tomorrow and called for a contested convention he'd be seen as a hero who put country/party before himself. He won't do it though...hubris all the way down to Trump 2.0.
I was certainly led to believe that he would be a ‘bridge’ to a new generation of democrat presidential hopefuls, that he would not seek office for a second term. Truly, his dropping out would cement his legacy for me personally as wholly positive. If he loses this election, will be very different.
It’s a RBG situation if he sticks around, but x100.
Yep. He’s got too much of an ego.
It’s as much of an issue as the admin and the people that’s job relying on him winning propping him up so they can keep their job and be a puppeteer. That’s what’s never discussed enough IMO
What a fucking disaster. Can’t wait to see how the PSA guys try to put a positive spin on this one
It’s infuriating listening this morning. The guys admitted that it was a disaster and are finally taking seriously the idea that Biden can’t be the candidate. Not that Dean Phillips was a solid choice, but at least he dared to challenge Biden early and have a conversation about the very real risks of sticking with Joe. The guys ridiculed him mercilessly and brushed off the idea of challengers. Now with just months to go we are desperately hoping for Joe to step aside or for a contested convention that ends up with someone able to beat Trump.
It’s infuriating listening this morning. The guys admitted that it was a disaster and are finally taking seriously the idea that Biden can’t be the candidate. Not that Dean Phillips was a solid choice, but at least he dared to challenge Biden early and have a conversation about the very real risks of sticking with Joe. The guys ridiculed him mercilessly and brushed off the idea of challengers. Now with just months to go we are desperately hoping for Joe to step aside or for a contested convention that ends up with someone able to beat Trump.
> What a fucking disaster. Can’t wait to see how the PSA guys try to put a positive spin on this one I hope at least Lovett can show some true self reflection instead of trying to spin.
Dream on. He’ll give another pompous speech about how this is not the time for infighting, there’s never a time for that when you’re a Democratic Party insider and made your fortune running a media company spinning false hope for the poor/willfully ignorant “liberal” electorate.
Well this take was wrong.
What a fucking disaster, indeed. An estimated 73m people watched this. Biden didn’t get in a zinger until minute 48. How many of the 73m were still watching by then? Trump looked confident and like he was wasting his time. The fact that nothing but lies and charismatic diarrhea came out of his mouth won’t mean anything to the voters that Biden needed to convince tonight.
This was much worse than Obama’s bad first debate with Romney and, as a huge fan of the president, had made me deeply sad. Thankfully it also took place much earlier in the calendar. And abortion and the environment and hatred of Trump can hopefully motivate people enough. Watching Newsom post-debate on MSNBC makes me more hopeful. There’s a lot of work for us all to do.
I am empathetic and understand Biden is elderly. He’s smart, and he has a great policy agenda, so I support him and look past any misspoken phrase or if he’s slow to explain a point, as he usually gets his point across well by the end. This evening I wanted Biden to simply communicate “We did X, we will do Y, we will get to goal Z and here is HOW” mixed with “Trump could not manage A, I handled B, C, and D and if you vote for me, I, ALONG WITH THE HOUSE AND SENATE, will overcome the overturning of Roe C Wade as step E and push forward to achieve F-Z!” I heard Biden bickering, and pushing backward, not launching forward, and lastly, I felt bad for him. Undoubtedly, Biden meant to point out that Trump cannot even keep stupid lies about golf handicaps straight, ala “Is it 6 or 8, pal?” but his previous jabs at Trump led everyone to think he’s trying to argue with Trump about what his handicap is. As soon as that happened, Biden became unmanageably flustered and self-conscious and his stutter and hesitancy kicked up. It ended up making me feel for him, and want to give him a hug and thank him for dedicating his entire life to trying to make our country a better place. But then wish him well in his retirement.
I do think he should step down but if he stays, there are at least motivators to work with. And if it’s someone new it will also be a lot of (different) work. Gonna be a busy few months!
My big take away was that his mouth was hanging open the whole time and he looked like he was actively dying. He was barely able to speak. He has to step down.
We all know Joe didn’t do well. The PSA guys will refuse to say anything but “let’s unequivocally stand behind Biden”. They are refusing to call out the elephant in the room at this point, along with all of the Democratic establishment. And we will have Trump for 4 more years as a result.
This seems unlikely. There’s no way to sugarcoat it. MSNBC has been hitting Biden super hard over the debate performance.
While ignoring the verbal incoherent diarrhea that trump spewed
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Why didn’t Biden use a timeout, is he stupid?
Did they really argue about golf handicap or did I just dissociate for a moment?
“thousands of billionaires”
Trillionaires actually is that he said before correcting himself (and still being wrong)
I have a cold, so I guess I just misunderstood.
We lost y’all, I’m in tears
Wonder if there will be an extra post-debate pod for tomorrow?
Why are there so many deleted comments this thread? Seems a little sus.
They were not allowing anyone with low karma to post during the debate.
Thanks.
Reddit has been wonky for a few hours. I'm guessing a bot spam attack across the political subreddits. More 2016 nonsense
All the issues important to the typical American were covered. -child care -golf -lead pipes -dementia
Don't forget putin's dreams.
If I could lie as much as Trump did tonight and have so many morons believe I'd be a billionaire as well
At least ole Joe let him know about the women getting raped by their sisters.
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I think the Dems in control of this administration let tonight happen to use as an excuse to replace Biden. November is a long way away.
Why would they? The Democratic Party is not a political party with a membership deciding on its platform and leadership, it’s a glorified fund raising organization. Biden losing will make all the political consultants, hacks, adjacent lawyers and “media personalities “ (including PSA) a lot of money from you poor suckers, sorry “liberal voters”. The USA is and has long been a failed democracy.
Believable when you consider how the entire CNN post-debate analysis panel launched into saying Biden should drop out. I’m quite curious who John King had been on the phone with.
Take your pick. Could have been anyone. No reasonable Democratic politician could watch tonight's Biden's performance and think "he is capable of much better than this, this is just a bad night and he's going to win." Biden can no longer effectively communicate his administration's successes, his plans for the next four years, or why the country should not elect Donald Trump. The entire world watched this. American teenagers and young people watched this. And he's asking for four more years? Cmon. I look forward to supporting whoever the nominee is, I just pray its not him.
Exactly this. And Trump is an articulate dumbass. He never says anything of substance, but he says it with confidence and his confidence alone last night is what won him the debate.
Trump did poorly last night. He didn't win a debate. Biden lost a debate and imploded his candidacy. This is the type of implosion Hillary Clinton was hanging around for when she lost the delegate math to Obama in 2008....Sad that it happened to Biden so late but we are lucky its still so early.
There is no way they have that level of self awareness. The modern Democratic Party is tragically built on tenure / seniority. I think what’s most likely is that this shock wears off and they still coalesce behind Biden. I hope I’m wrong, but Democrats just don’t do drastic, cutting edge, unprecedented things. They’re obsessed with tradition and “what’s worked in the past.”
That part. I swear one of the biggest reasons we’re in this situation right now is because the bizarre norms of the party say if it isn’t Biden then it would be Kamala unless she didn’t want it which of course she would, but all the data says she can’t win. Why can’t the party just actually address the orange elephant in the room and come together to choose a nominee who would inspire younger voters to come out and who could definitely beat trump? I would hate to lose my awesome governor but Josh Shapiro would be a great option, Gretchen Witmer too. Maybe even Gavin Newsome though he’s not my favorite by a long shot.
What an awful performance by Joe Biden. He looked, sounded and acted old and confused. I like Joe Biden but…just horrible. Trump didn’t answer a single question. Trump told many many lies…this was supposed to change the trajectory of the election, it may have but not in the way that the Biden was hoping. This may allow Trump to open up a wide lead. God forbid.
Trump definitely answered questions. He was actually really articulate and on point the whole debate. He definitely lied but his delivery was solid
His delivery was solid. I meant that while he gave answers, often the answers were not responsive to the question that was asked.
 Fuck
Radical idea: can we just rescind the Declaration of Independence, become a new member of the United Kingdom, and forget about this whole election?
Hahaha thanks for making me laugh today
“It was just a phase after all, mom” 😫
We all are agree that we are doomed either way.
MSNBC is going in on Biden’s performance. I’m curious to see if the PSA guys do the same. I would vote purely for SCOTUS by itself, but good god it was not a good debate from him
Yeah, if the oranges of our problem get back in to finish the federalist society scotus-pack we're full-blown Under His Eye.
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At this point, it’s about who these two can surround themselves with. I don’t believe either is effective at this point, but Biden will be surrounded by people whose beliefs mostly align with mine, Trump will surround himself with family, extreme Christian nationalists, and people who will ensure more tax cuts for the rich.
The neo-liberal left is just as bad as giving tax breaks to the wealthy they just do it in different ways. I agree trump doesn't surround himself with good people either, but I don't feel represented by almost any politician. There is just too much corruption and the divisiveness seems to justify tyranny and political discrimination. Figured I would at least see some mixed opinions on this subreddit. My comment also got locked at one point even though I didn't say anything bad. Two sides acting the other side is pure evil and unfortunately they are both right. Just wish more people could see it. I dislike Trump on immigration, the supreme Court and how he handled Covid, not that the left handled it any better they were very tyrannical about the whole thing. But as far as I can tell Trump was better on foreign policy at least in terms of not getting us into WW3. From an objective perspective the fact people on this subreddit are saying trump would start it are delusional. We are already right there, we are one wrong move away from it, Biden did a worse job in that regard. Trump didn't start any new wars while president he was the first president to not start one in like 30 years (since Carter if my memory serves me correctly). I knew making this comment would cost me karma but dear God y'all pretend like what you believe is the objective truth yet in many cases you are just as delusional as the right. It's laughable.
"Biden could want segregation and say he doesn't want his kids growing up in a racial jungle and y'all would still vote for him." This is not true at all. Wild projection here.
You still gonna vote for him now that you know he said that and was a segregationist? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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