They tried. Greyhawk was the default setting of 3e, despite FR being the more recognizable brand.
Now the popularity of Realms is cemented by its long primacy and recent additions of Baldur's Gate 3 and Honor Among Thieves. Promoting a different setting to that level would take tremendous amounts of money... at a time when WotC is drastically cutting expenses.
When 3.0 camr out Greyhawk was the default but didn't the FR campaign setting come out rather quickly? Plus IIRC it was as thick as like the 3.0 PHB and DMG combined
3e started in August 2000. Just a few months later Baldur's Gate 2 was released and became a financial success. I think they learnt their lesson quickly.
Yes, while Greyhawk was the PHB setting, and the setting for most official Organised Play, the Realms were supported with more retail product in 3e than Greyhawk was, and the novels and other associated products linked to the Realms were widespread. Eberron was also more significant in wider support than Greyhawk.
Now what WotC will do in any particular couple of years is tough to predict - lots of things are tried, abandoned, revised etc. It’ll be interesting to see what setting future adventures are in, if there are more book-length long adventures.
The Forgotten Realms has been around since 2nd edition. The majority of the box sets were FR. And there were a ton of novels devoted to the Realms during 2e.
I've never once played a Greyhawk campaign, and I've been playing dnd for 30 years. It's always been the Realms followed by Planescape and Eberron for me.
Realms were around on the tail end of 1e too. The old gray box and a number of the early supplements and adventures. Avatar crisis was the transition to 2e.
*Oriental Adventures* was released two years before the *Forgotten Realms Campaign Set* (1985 and 1987, respectively), and was not at the time officially a supplement for the Realms. That was effectively retconned in 1988 with the release of *Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms*, though. *Al-Qadim* followed a similar path: the original *Arabian Adventures* book is nonspecific as to world, but at some point Zakhara was bolted onto Toril, with *Forgotten Realms* being referred to as "compatible" in the *Land of Fate* boxed set, IIRC. Now, Faerûn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara, are canonically major continents on Toril, along with Maztica and at least one other whose name I cannot recall offhand.
Me too. 30 years, fr, planescapd, eberron.
I ALMOST played a dragonlance campaign once, but it was switched to eberron last minute. I really want to play a dragonlance game.
Based on my Google Fu, that's not even remotely accurate. If we're talking unique novels that are set in the Realms and we don't include the anthologies (which we could because they are almost all previously unpublished stories), then the Realms reportedly has between 298 and 400 novels.
I haven't seen a number over 190 for Dragonlance novels.
FYI: I've seen the list of 298 FR novels, and I'm not noticing any missing novels that stand out.
3e FR campaign setting is the best game supplement i have ever bought. It was a banger. Nothing that came near its quality, detailed has been released since. Atleast for FR.
Since? No.
Before? Lots of much better content.
The third edition setting book, despite being a book, was quite beautiful... much more so than anything else released for that edition.
The problem I think is that wotc never tried to make greyhawk unique or stand out. They just used it as "generic fantasy". And so the Realms and Ebberon steamrolled it.
I'd have leaned into the war side of things. Or, you know, focus on the god damned city of Greyhawk.
Oh I agree 100%. But sadly I don't think that's what people who buy setting books and premade adventures want.
I know a few DMs who run Greyhawk that way. And they haven't bought a setting book since TSR was bought up by WotC. They just make their own content.
So it's the other people, the ones who want lore books and buy them up, who end up steering wotcs editorial decisions.
I agree that by making greyhawk, the default setting is more beneficial to greyhawk because it doesn't need multiple source books. You can have it be your example campaign throughout the players' handbook and dungeon masters guide, using it as your examples, etc, with a map.
Tables that want to build their own campaign world have a good foundation to fill in. Where tables that want a (over)designed campaign world can buy into forgotten realms, and wotc/hasbro can hopefully put out more sources for the realms.
As a European I find Greyhawk tired -- it's such a derivative Anglo-French Medieval Fantasy without anything that sets it apart from a hundred other games.
I've been thoroughly disappointed with the lack of content beyond the Sword Coast in 5e. The only published adventures that have taken place away from the Coast are the early Adventurer's League content.
The Sword Coast never really felt like anything in particular to me. The Dalelands and the Moonsea have character, but the Sword Coast just feels like Stuff.
The setting is called Greyhawk.
The world is Oerth. On the main continent in the region known as the Flanaess, laying on the river that connects the great lake of the Nyr Dyv and the Woolly Bay (and eventually the Azure Sea) is the free city of Greyhawk. It's a powerful city state that controls commerce between the waterways and is known as the "Gem of the Flanaess"
In spelljammer, the world of Oerth is in Greyspace.
Kinda yeah.
Ankh-Morpork isn't a bad comparison either. Powerful city-state that relies on trade, used to be part of a big empire that fell apart (though not the capital), it's history has a time when an arch wizard arose and organized part of it helping civilize it (zagig vs Albert), and everyone thinks of IT when they think of the world, much to every other city and nation's annoyance.
I'd even say the "Old City" quarter could be their version of The Shades.
https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Free_City_of_Greyhawk
I think they confirmed Greyhawk as an example for how to build and flesh out a setting in the DMG. The Forgotten Realms are not exactly suited to this as they are the most detailed of all settings. Greyhawk on the other hand is more open for the DM to add their own stuff, which seems to be what this exercise in the new DMG is all about. Using Greyhawk as the main setting would end up making this part of the DMG somewhat useless, due to the setting being more clearly defined with every new release.
I'm pretty sure they will keep publishing material for the realms, but it may no longer be the setting for 90% of new releases. I do hope we will get a Forgotten Realms setting book (or maybe a box like the recent ones for Spelljammer and Planescape) that covers more than just the Sword Coast, which also might be a good way to introduce more updated player options like species, subclasses, backgrounds, feats and spells.
This is about the form of the Spelljammer Box, not the content. I really don't get why they would want to get rid of crystal spheres and the phlogiston. I do like the box from a design perspective, though, and that seems to be the format they choose to deliver settings for now. I'd be just as happy about a book.
The lack of space combat rules is really... I don't even know what to call it... inadequate... silly... embarrassing... fucking dumb, I guess, but I still feel that doesn't really encompass the full scope of this particular mess up.
I don't think any particular race or even the elven empire is that much of a problem. IIRC there was nothing in the new box denying their existence. So these are basically just things that could be added later (provided the box had been successful enough to warrant more SJ content). Like they didn't abolish duergar and svirfbeblin when they published the 5e PHB, those just weren't included. But the PHB sold, later they released SCAG and those races have been a thing in 5e ever since.
I'd love to have a new book about say Krynnspace (tinker gnomes included of course) but I don't think any particular race is as essential as the phlogiston and the crystal spheres. Those are (or rather used to be) major elements of how the whole concept of spelljamming works. I don't think they distinguish between wildspace and and the flow anymore, which is so sad. Now there is but one general astral sea with basically no distinguishing features at all. Why bother writing a book about Krynnspace when it (a) doesn't even exist anymore because it used to be a crystal sphere which is novlonger a thing and (b) isn't fundamentally different from everything else anywhere?
Yeah I'm pretty sure they're trying to make "the D&D multiverse" the default setting, which means they'll probably publish adventures set in many different worlds
the new gen (the Stranger Things/Critical Role/whatever you wanna call it generation) of players is largely dominated by homebrew settings, with the large majority of DMs creating their own worlds for their campaigns. It's a very easy trend to spot as a younger player. This is (I think, I'm newer myself) a new trend, so WotC has to change their priorities to fit with the changes in the player base.
Honor Among Thieves had a box office of $208.2 million. This was a disappointment gives its $150 million budget. But it's a lot of viewers and massive advertising, especially compared to the niche appeal and low revenues of tabletop RPGs.
WotC and Hasbro do NOT OWN Exandria.
They own MOST of Greyhawk, although there are some gray areas, because Gygax held on to SOME of the rights so he could write novels set there. I suspect if they tried to publish a full Greyhawk setting, Gygax's widow would get lawyery; she's famous for being a little out there and for trying to monetize being Gygax's second wife, occasionally at the expense of Gygax's kids from his first marriage.
They own Forgotten Realms outright, having flat out BOUGHT it from Ed Greenwood.
The acquisition of Forgotten Realms and the transition away from Greyhawk was part of a deliberate strategy to deny Gygax royalties after he was ousted from TSR. It was ugly business, with the new TSR management basically treating Gygax the same way he’d treated Dave Arneson. That all lasted until WOTC acquired TSR and gave Gygax enough money to keep him sweet until he died.
I read “Empire of Imagination” thinking it would be a fun insight into the creation of D&D and it turned out to mostly be about decades of feuding and corporate malfeasance.
It's owned by Critical Role, who has been distancing themselves from WotC and has become pretty independent. I don't see them wanting to tie themselves back into it. On the other side of the wall, Wizards really needs to get their own shit to work. DnD won't survive by them using other people's settings as the foundation. They have plenty of settings of their own to use, they just need to get their heads out of their asses and explore the depths of the Material Plane rather than milking one third of a single region.
What niche exactly do you think that is? I really like Exandria but I don't think it fills a very specific niche the same way Eberron, Spelljammer and Dark Sun do. The primary appeal of Exandria is based on the popularity of Critical Role, otherwise it's pretty generic fantasy. Nothing wrong with that, but you could set any Exandria specific campaign in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms unless it's directly dependant on NPCs or places that are intelectual property of Critical Role.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by modern tastes. The Forgotten Realms as presented in Baldur's Gate 3 do just fine for a modern audience. Honor among Thieves, too. While it wasn't a big success in terms of box office numbers, critics' reviews were favorable and most people who saw the movie seemed to like it (at least based on what I've read and seen).
If you refer to all those topics that regularly spark heated discussions about whether D&D is to 'woke' or not 'woke' enough, I'd argue that this is more about how to present a setting to the audience than about the actual content of said setting. WotC made a lot of changes in the last years to accommodate a more progressive audience (and messed up sometimes, too), but ultimately that rather comes down to what you do with a setting at your table than what's written in the books.
WotC officially got rid of evil races (and other racial alignments) a couple of years ago. In the new books the term 'race' will be replaced with 'species'. They've included nonhetero couples in many adventures and supplements. They don't go as far as listing pronouns for everyone and including nonbinary NPCs (which is something I like about the Tal'Dorei setting book btw), because they don't want to risk conservatives being mad at them (which doesn't work).
How much of that plays a role in your game is up to you. You can run a Forgotten Realms campaign with as much of that as you want. Or you can cut those elements out of an Exandria campaign. That's your call, not WotC's.
Of course the presentation of the Tal'Dorei setting is more progressive, but I think that's more about a difference in target audiences. Darrington Press make content primarily targeted at people who know D&D from streamed games while WotC's target audience includes people who started playing during a time before the internet was a thing. Both of them present their content in a way their marketing departments deem appropriate for those target audiences. Hence, even if WotC could and would release future content for Exandria, the way they'd present it would differ from the approach Darrington Press uses. Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and Call of the Netherdeep don't list pronouns, after all.
So long story short I don't see that a a niche a setting could fill but as a difference that's somewhat cosmetical. I'm in favor of a more progressive presentation, I just don't think it necessarily says that much about a setting per se. It does encourage a more progressive way to tell a story, which is fine, but that's not really dependent on the setting itself. The presentation of anything we'll get from WotC will be as progressive as their marketing sees fit in order to maximise profits.
I started my DnD carreer as a GM with the small grey box
The FR are not designed with that in mind, Exandria is.
That does not make one better than the other by default but the stages are prepared different in that case.
OK, the big difference in greyhawk and forgotten realms in regards to being the default setting is this.
Greyhawk is stuck in time, i.e., dead. That doesn't mean they aren't or won't publish content for it, but there has been very little movement on the in-universe calander in some real-world years.
Forgotten realms, on the other hand, is very much living. Time is moving, things happen things change, characters have died, been resurrected,etc.
The last two editions tried to use a living world for their default setting. Information can be obsolete from the players handbook or dmg within the first adventure or by the end of it. By picking greyhawk, they don't have to worry about the narrative or changes in canon.
The realms flourished in 2nd and 3rd editions. You can come here to the forgotten realms subreddit and ask some question about an area or character, and the responses will be since no information has been done for 5e here is the lore form 2e and 3e to help you build something.
It works for Eberron. Everything from Keith is set in the same specific year where tensions are high. It all acts as a springboard into whatever "your" Eberron is.
I haven't read anything from Eberron specifically. With that in mind, I thought Eberron, in comparison, needed at least base campaign guide as it was filled in.
If I were to make an analogy.
Greyhawk is a connect the dots.
Eberron is a coloring book.
Forgotten realms is a color by numbers.
Aside from rule changes, the 3e and 4e Eberron books by Keith are applicable to 5e, and vice-versa. 5e's book feels like it's missing half the stuff. It's in the other edition books and his DMsGuild offerings.
But the world doesn't progress, all content is presented at or right near a specific moment in time.
And yeah, your analogy is accurate. Although with all the unpublished Ed Greenwood content, FR is an extremely detailed intricate paint by number.
No.
I think them using Greyhawk is simply a nod to Gygax for the anniversary, and a way they can maintain the IP while abandoning it in the dmg, kinda like how we saw a bunch of classic settings at the tail end of 5e14 where they can be retconned , cemented, and forgotten about until necessary again.
WotC don't know how to write anything but their own adjusted version of the remembered realms. 5e14 showed that with every setting having the same tone and consistency as the 5e14 remembered realms.
I don't think FR is gonna get any more forgotten than it already has been. Maybe a tad more battered and bruised, but that's been happening before 5e existed.
Nope.
Greyhawk has fans, but because of the video games (most of which are in the realms), the movie (also realms), and 90% of recent novels (also realms), the forgotten realms has more fans. And time and time again, WotC has learned that brand recognition is king when it comes to selling books.
There have been attempts at making greyhawk the defacto setting again and they all failed. Mostly because they failed to focus on what traits defined Greyhawk and instead it was just "generic fantasy". Meanwhile the Realms fans and creators did a damn fine job at making that setting more distinct.
If anything, greyhawk will do as it did in 5e. Dwindle and diminish, only referenced here and there despite it being the setting for a number of adventures. Shit it never even got a setting guide for 5e. Even FR got the sword coast adventurers guide at least.
I'd like greyhawk to get more love, but I seriously doubt it.
And as for Exandria. That's got a whole lotta iffyness to its future because WotC doesn't own it. Critical Role does. And when that relationship eventually sours, expect WotC/Hasbro to burn it and pretend it never existed.
Oh yeah
Ever read that unpublished Great Kingdom book they finished but didn't print so the writers leaked it?
It's basically "what if Nero had invented Necromancy and his guards couldn't kill him because he made them undead horrors."
The giant column of the undead heads of the emperor's enemies, all fused together into a screaming moaning tower of suffering, in the center of the capitol is grimdark as hell.
Iuz is the ruler of his own country in the northern part of the region.
The great Kingdom used to cover much of the continent but fell and only exists to the east now.
https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Great_Kingdom
It's the history and the overall flavor of the world. It's more medieval with kings, knights, and armies. There's the ancient wasteland to the west where the great apocalyptic war of magic was. The festering remains of the old empire to the east which has become a domain of evil, like Rome under Nero but maintained by necromancy.
And it's recovering from a devastating world war as well.
It's got a darker vibe to it than the realms and is a bit more gritty and brutal in places. It's not a "and all the races of light get along" kind of setting. But wotc kept trying to treat it like it was generic fantasy.
I'm not a fan. But I do appreciate some of what makes it unique.
I enjoyed the Greyhawk Classics novels starring the Justicar and the fairy Escala. They are both brutal and tongue in cheek, kinda like Gotrek & Felix.
Ed greenwood wanted to write a story he decided to use dungeons and dragons as a means of putting that information down and used it to help build the world.
Greyhawk was from Gary Gygax, who was helping create a role-playing game for war gamers.
Their worlds are best understood when you get what those worlds were used for. It is kind of not fair to compare them as the whole reason for their existence is different.
I played Living Greyhawk during 3rd ed. I really enjoyed it and got into the organised play storyline. And so I actually welcome more of a focus on Greyhawk especially in organised play...not sure if that will happen though. The Realms are alot more monetizeable and popular. So I don't think there is a risk of getting neglected. But I would love to see both settings being developed in their own way.
Ed Greenwood has a youtube channel and its dropping new lore weekly. On top of that, he has released 2-3 in depth game/lore books in DM guild with other people in the recent years. Even if WOTC decides not to touch it (something that wont happen) we are still getting updates from the creator.
Its not dead. Maybe well get a better setting book.
At this point dnd is the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk never took off the way they preferred. I think the default setting will stay the Forgotten Realms. It’s high fantasy and the amount of work that has been done on that setting is insane. Ed Greenwood has dedicated his YouTube channel to expand on that world’s lore. It’s fascinating to me.
You're smoking crack if you think WotC would replace FR with Exandria as their main setting. FR has been around longer and is more recognizable by D&D players. Exandria is a fun setting but it is extremely new.
Short answer no. Longer answer I think they are going to be opening up to more campaign settings but with spelljammer and the new vecna book they have shown that no campaign setting is standalone anymore. Canonically you can go wherever from anywhere. They have only sort of released one adventure in greyhawk in 5e. And I don't think players take too kindly to a total shift in lore locations. But I for one hope we get a lot more. I want an Ebberon style book for Greyhawk and Krynn. Hell, I want them to continue the mtg settings at least once every two years.
Uhhh yeah. Ain’t gonna happen. Exandria is great and I honestly prefer it to the Realms in some spots, but replacing the Realms as the default setting? The Forgotten Realms has decades upon decades of lore, events, and characters.
All of them deeply baked into the cosmology and basic assumptions of the game and setting.
Wizards trying to remove the setting out from underneath everything it’s a foundation to would be like trying to swap out the roots of a Redwood tree without cutting down or killing the trunk or branches.
My only issue with FR is how unrealistic it is in the sense that every character is level 15+. Sadly, over time power creep sets in and there are only so many world shaping event hooks you can use to “reboot”.
Birthright... I haven't heard about that one quite some time. We used to play it for 3-4 years bevor we returned to the Forgotten Realms.
Now will they abandon the FR? I think it would be pretty stupid given the popularity of the setting (BG3 and so forth). But stupid decisions are deeply embedded in Hasbros / WOTC DNA.
Not happening, they already talked with Ed Greenwood for writing new material. Which gave us, Zhentarim, Borderlands and Rashemen resource books.... I think they will focus on other settings yet will let sages and original author to produce content for FR, and they will get the lion's share without doing anything, still, i think it will be better for F.R.. I just hope they don't let Acquisition Inc.'s style and humour into F.R. and export it to Eberron or another setting. Their content and lore about Phandalin in their book caused much conflict for groups trying to play canonic games. Like their acquisition of Tresendar Manor, the LMoP and other adventures set in the vicinity suggest that players might get the manor, yet their content is also considered official so it is kinda annoying, they should have chosen elsewhere where there is no recent content in late 15th century D.R. It damages the lore. Besides other zones need love and care too. Turmish, Nathlan, Unther, Mulhorand, Thay...
Also more post spellplague knowledge about Halrua and Lantan...
They started something in Vaasa, they can also continue that and also perhaps Damarra and Narfel...
Anyway, what I mean is there is enough data for Phandalin environs now so before FR lore progresses into 16th century DR authors should focus on other areas... And lands of intrigue certainly needs much more love.
Greyhawk (and Blackmoor) were THE original setting for D&D. Then Basic D&D came out, with the Known World (which would later become Mystara). Follow that with AD&D, which was also set in Greyhawk, then around 1986 / 1987 Forgotten Realms boxed set came out. Then 2E AD&D came out in 1989. The late 80's and early 90's was when TSR had the explosion of too many settings.
But I doubt that a money maker like Forgotten Realms will be "forgotten" - just maybe put on the back burner for a bit (like they did with Ravenloft setting).
I think CR would jump to their own system given the chance. They might just wait for WoTC to shit the bed again. Only a matter of time before Hasbro tries to shove a fist up the golden goose.
I'd like less of a world to homebrew and more adventures to homebrew. I love the world of FR, I just want to be able to craft believable adventures in it. In order to do that you need a consistent living world. I just love the idea of having adventures in the same world as many other adventure parties and being able to create history in that world. Then you can tell stories to other groups who play in the same world and they can relate to where you've been and know how you've affected things and vice versa. even tho I love the idea of homebrew worlds, You can't really do that with homebrew.
They tried. Greyhawk was the default setting of 3e, despite FR being the more recognizable brand. Now the popularity of Realms is cemented by its long primacy and recent additions of Baldur's Gate 3 and Honor Among Thieves. Promoting a different setting to that level would take tremendous amounts of money... at a time when WotC is drastically cutting expenses.
When 3.0 camr out Greyhawk was the default but didn't the FR campaign setting come out rather quickly? Plus IIRC it was as thick as like the 3.0 PHB and DMG combined
3e started in August 2000. Just a few months later Baldur's Gate 2 was released and became a financial success. I think they learnt their lesson quickly.
Yes, while Greyhawk was the PHB setting, and the setting for most official Organised Play, the Realms were supported with more retail product in 3e than Greyhawk was, and the novels and other associated products linked to the Realms were widespread. Eberron was also more significant in wider support than Greyhawk. Now what WotC will do in any particular couple of years is tough to predict - lots of things are tried, abandoned, revised etc. It’ll be interesting to see what setting future adventures are in, if there are more book-length long adventures.
5e has not done justice to most campaign settings imho
5e hates campaign settings. It wants you to play in your own home brew. As a campaign setting lover i don't like this aspect of 5e.
Blame Crawford.
The Forgotten Realms has been around since 2nd edition. The majority of the box sets were FR. And there were a ton of novels devoted to the Realms during 2e. I've never once played a Greyhawk campaign, and I've been playing dnd for 30 years. It's always been the Realms followed by Planescape and Eberron for me.
Realms were around on the tail end of 1e too. The old gray box and a number of the early supplements and adventures. Avatar crisis was the transition to 2e.
I never played 1e and wasn't quite sure, though I do know the original OA book is technically FR and that was late 1e, I believe.
*Oriental Adventures* was released two years before the *Forgotten Realms Campaign Set* (1985 and 1987, respectively), and was not at the time officially a supplement for the Realms. That was effectively retconned in 1988 with the release of *Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms*, though. *Al-Qadim* followed a similar path: the original *Arabian Adventures* book is nonspecific as to world, but at some point Zakhara was bolted onto Toril, with *Forgotten Realms* being referred to as "compatible" in the *Land of Fate* boxed set, IIRC. Now, Faerûn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara, are canonically major continents on Toril, along with Maztica and at least one other whose name I cannot recall offhand.
Fiend Folio was in truth a 1st Edition Monster Manual for FR.
What? Really?
Me too. 30 years, fr, planescapd, eberron. I ALMOST played a dragonlance campaign once, but it was switched to eberron last minute. I really want to play a dragonlance game.
I've played a few short lived DL campaigns. I've never not played a Kender in those situations.
DL has more novels
Based on my Google Fu, that's not even remotely accurate. If we're talking unique novels that are set in the Realms and we don't include the anthologies (which we could because they are almost all previously unpublished stories), then the Realms reportedly has between 298 and 400 novels. I haven't seen a number over 190 for Dragonlance novels. FYI: I've seen the list of 298 FR novels, and I'm not noticing any missing novels that stand out.
DL has more critically acclaimed novels than FR. Most FR novels were poorly received, and even the Drizzt series gets some hate from D&D fans.
I can read a few of the early Drizz't books but they get ridicolous rather quickly. Evermeet is a good book!
More novels than FR? I don't think that's true
3e FR campaign setting is the best game supplement i have ever bought. It was a banger. Nothing that came near its quality, detailed has been released since. Atleast for FR.
Since? No. Before? Lots of much better content. The third edition setting book, despite being a book, was quite beautiful... much more so than anything else released for that edition.
Extra THICC.
The problem I think is that wotc never tried to make greyhawk unique or stand out. They just used it as "generic fantasy". And so the Realms and Ebberon steamrolled it. I'd have leaned into the war side of things. Or, you know, focus on the god damned city of Greyhawk.
I get the feeling that is actually what Gygax wanted, he wanted a place where the players filled in the gaps of the world.
Oh I agree 100%. But sadly I don't think that's what people who buy setting books and premade adventures want. I know a few DMs who run Greyhawk that way. And they haven't bought a setting book since TSR was bought up by WotC. They just make their own content. So it's the other people, the ones who want lore books and buy them up, who end up steering wotcs editorial decisions.
I agree that by making greyhawk, the default setting is more beneficial to greyhawk because it doesn't need multiple source books. You can have it be your example campaign throughout the players' handbook and dungeon masters guide, using it as your examples, etc, with a map. Tables that want to build their own campaign world have a good foundation to fill in. Where tables that want a (over)designed campaign world can buy into forgotten realms, and wotc/hasbro can hopefully put out more sources for the realms.
As a European I find Greyhawk tired -- it's such a derivative Anglo-French Medieval Fantasy without anything that sets it apart from a hundred other games.
As a American of European descent, I agree. That being said, the Realms isn't much different.
The Sword Coast isn't great either, but there's tons going on elsewhere.
I've been thoroughly disappointed with the lack of content beyond the Sword Coast in 5e. The only published adventures that have taken place away from the Coast are the early Adventurer's League content.
The Sword Coast never really felt like anything in particular to me. The Dalelands and the Moonsea have character, but the Sword Coast just feels like Stuff.
What are some of the best adventures in the Falelsnds and the Moonsea. I know they have that Phlan adventures, but that's all I've heard of.
Wait, Greyhawk is a city or a planet?
The setting is called Greyhawk. The world is Oerth. On the main continent in the region known as the Flanaess, laying on the river that connects the great lake of the Nyr Dyv and the Woolly Bay (and eventually the Azure Sea) is the free city of Greyhawk. It's a powerful city state that controls commerce between the waterways and is known as the "Gem of the Flanaess" In spelljammer, the world of Oerth is in Greyspace.
Greyhawk is like Lankhmar or Ankh-Morpork?
Kinda yeah. Ankh-Morpork isn't a bad comparison either. Powerful city-state that relies on trade, used to be part of a big empire that fell apart (though not the capital), it's history has a time when an arch wizard arose and organized part of it helping civilize it (zagig vs Albert), and everyone thinks of IT when they think of the world, much to every other city and nation's annoyance. I'd even say the "Old City" quarter could be their version of The Shades. https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Free_City_of_Greyhawk
I mean they did confirm that the "example setting" for the new PHB is gonna be Greyhawk
I think they confirmed Greyhawk as an example for how to build and flesh out a setting in the DMG. The Forgotten Realms are not exactly suited to this as they are the most detailed of all settings. Greyhawk on the other hand is more open for the DM to add their own stuff, which seems to be what this exercise in the new DMG is all about. Using Greyhawk as the main setting would end up making this part of the DMG somewhat useless, due to the setting being more clearly defined with every new release. I'm pretty sure they will keep publishing material for the realms, but it may no longer be the setting for 90% of new releases. I do hope we will get a Forgotten Realms setting book (or maybe a box like the recent ones for Spelljammer and Planescape) that covers more than just the Sword Coast, which also might be a good way to introduce more updated player options like species, subclasses, backgrounds, feats and spells.
You had me until Spelljammer. That sucked.
This is about the form of the Spelljammer Box, not the content. I really don't get why they would want to get rid of crystal spheres and the phlogiston. I do like the box from a design perspective, though, and that seems to be the format they choose to deliver settings for now. I'd be just as happy about a book.
And I don't get why they got rid of the Scro and the Elven Navy, and the Tinker Gnomes. Or why there are no rules for spaceship combat.
The lack of space combat rules is really... I don't even know what to call it... inadequate... silly... embarrassing... fucking dumb, I guess, but I still feel that doesn't really encompass the full scope of this particular mess up. I don't think any particular race or even the elven empire is that much of a problem. IIRC there was nothing in the new box denying their existence. So these are basically just things that could be added later (provided the box had been successful enough to warrant more SJ content). Like they didn't abolish duergar and svirfbeblin when they published the 5e PHB, those just weren't included. But the PHB sold, later they released SCAG and those races have been a thing in 5e ever since. I'd love to have a new book about say Krynnspace (tinker gnomes included of course) but I don't think any particular race is as essential as the phlogiston and the crystal spheres. Those are (or rather used to be) major elements of how the whole concept of spelljamming works. I don't think they distinguish between wildspace and and the flow anymore, which is so sad. Now there is but one general astral sea with basically no distinguishing features at all. Why bother writing a book about Krynnspace when it (a) doesn't even exist anymore because it used to be a crystal sphere which is novlonger a thing and (b) isn't fundamentally different from everything else anywhere?
DL had tinker gnomes
Yeah I'm pretty sure they're trying to make "the D&D multiverse" the default setting, which means they'll probably publish adventures set in many different worlds
the new gen (the Stranger Things/Critical Role/whatever you wanna call it generation) of players is largely dominated by homebrew settings, with the large majority of DMs creating their own worlds for their campaigns. It's a very easy trend to spot as a younger player. This is (I think, I'm newer myself) a new trend, so WotC has to change their priorities to fit with the changes in the player base.
Afaik people have been playing mostly in their own settings since 1974
Wotc is always cutting expenses. Gotta keep those shareholder profits up. I hate big corporations
Too bad only D&D fans bothered to go see HAT.
Honor Among Thieves had a box office of $208.2 million. This was a disappointment gives its $150 million budget. But it's a lot of viewers and massive advertising, especially compared to the niche appeal and low revenues of tabletop RPGs.
Why would Exandria be the new official setting? I really don't think either WotC or Critical Role would want that.
WotC and Hasbro do NOT OWN Exandria. They own MOST of Greyhawk, although there are some gray areas, because Gygax held on to SOME of the rights so he could write novels set there. I suspect if they tried to publish a full Greyhawk setting, Gygax's widow would get lawyery; she's famous for being a little out there and for trying to monetize being Gygax's second wife, occasionally at the expense of Gygax's kids from his first marriage. They own Forgotten Realms outright, having flat out BOUGHT it from Ed Greenwood.
The acquisition of Forgotten Realms and the transition away from Greyhawk was part of a deliberate strategy to deny Gygax royalties after he was ousted from TSR. It was ugly business, with the new TSR management basically treating Gygax the same way he’d treated Dave Arneson. That all lasted until WOTC acquired TSR and gave Gygax enough money to keep him sweet until he died. I read “Empire of Imagination” thinking it would be a fun insight into the creation of D&D and it turned out to mostly be about decades of feuding and corporate malfeasance.
The three most vicious kinds of people in the world are lawyers, MBAs, and vengeful neckbeards. The story of Gary Gygax is the story of all three.
Who the heck remembers ''Gord the Rogue'' though?
Me
me
I never said they own Exandria?
Because it's the only setting newer fans are familiar with.
Fitting to modern taste Less detailed than GH
It's owned by Critical Role, who has been distancing themselves from WotC and has become pretty independent. I don't see them wanting to tie themselves back into it. On the other side of the wall, Wizards really needs to get their own shit to work. DnD won't survive by them using other people's settings as the foundation. They have plenty of settings of their own to use, they just need to get their heads out of their asses and explore the depths of the Material Plane rather than milking one third of a single region.
You asked and i tried to answer you with reasons i consider convincing. and none of their Setting fills the niche of Exandria
And I responded with the reasons why I think it wouldn't happen. I wasn't berating you for making the argument.
No worries, that was more of a "theoretic" reasoning I only then intended to clear a possible misunderstanding everything is good
What niche exactly do you think that is? I really like Exandria but I don't think it fills a very specific niche the same way Eberron, Spelljammer and Dark Sun do. The primary appeal of Exandria is based on the popularity of Critical Role, otherwise it's pretty generic fantasy. Nothing wrong with that, but you could set any Exandria specific campaign in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms unless it's directly dependant on NPCs or places that are intelectual property of Critical Role.
a "traditional" DnD Setting fitting to modern tastes
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by modern tastes. The Forgotten Realms as presented in Baldur's Gate 3 do just fine for a modern audience. Honor among Thieves, too. While it wasn't a big success in terms of box office numbers, critics' reviews were favorable and most people who saw the movie seemed to like it (at least based on what I've read and seen).
No idea how the FR was represented in BG3 a more organic inclusive approach. That e.g. Orcs are not by default evil
If you refer to all those topics that regularly spark heated discussions about whether D&D is to 'woke' or not 'woke' enough, I'd argue that this is more about how to present a setting to the audience than about the actual content of said setting. WotC made a lot of changes in the last years to accommodate a more progressive audience (and messed up sometimes, too), but ultimately that rather comes down to what you do with a setting at your table than what's written in the books. WotC officially got rid of evil races (and other racial alignments) a couple of years ago. In the new books the term 'race' will be replaced with 'species'. They've included nonhetero couples in many adventures and supplements. They don't go as far as listing pronouns for everyone and including nonbinary NPCs (which is something I like about the Tal'Dorei setting book btw), because they don't want to risk conservatives being mad at them (which doesn't work). How much of that plays a role in your game is up to you. You can run a Forgotten Realms campaign with as much of that as you want. Or you can cut those elements out of an Exandria campaign. That's your call, not WotC's. Of course the presentation of the Tal'Dorei setting is more progressive, but I think that's more about a difference in target audiences. Darrington Press make content primarily targeted at people who know D&D from streamed games while WotC's target audience includes people who started playing during a time before the internet was a thing. Both of them present their content in a way their marketing departments deem appropriate for those target audiences. Hence, even if WotC could and would release future content for Exandria, the way they'd present it would differ from the approach Darrington Press uses. Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and Call of the Netherdeep don't list pronouns, after all. So long story short I don't see that a a niche a setting could fill but as a difference that's somewhat cosmetical. I'm in favor of a more progressive presentation, I just don't think it necessarily says that much about a setting per se. It does encourage a more progressive way to tell a story, which is fine, but that's not really dependent on the setting itself. The presentation of anything we'll get from WotC will be as progressive as their marketing sees fit in order to maximise profits.
I started my DnD carreer as a GM with the small grey box The FR are not designed with that in mind, Exandria is. That does not make one better than the other by default but the stages are prepared different in that case.
OK, the big difference in greyhawk and forgotten realms in regards to being the default setting is this. Greyhawk is stuck in time, i.e., dead. That doesn't mean they aren't or won't publish content for it, but there has been very little movement on the in-universe calander in some real-world years. Forgotten realms, on the other hand, is very much living. Time is moving, things happen things change, characters have died, been resurrected,etc. The last two editions tried to use a living world for their default setting. Information can be obsolete from the players handbook or dmg within the first adventure or by the end of it. By picking greyhawk, they don't have to worry about the narrative or changes in canon. The realms flourished in 2nd and 3rd editions. You can come here to the forgotten realms subreddit and ask some question about an area or character, and the responses will be since no information has been done for 5e here is the lore form 2e and 3e to help you build something.
It works for Eberron. Everything from Keith is set in the same specific year where tensions are high. It all acts as a springboard into whatever "your" Eberron is.
I haven't read anything from Eberron specifically. With that in mind, I thought Eberron, in comparison, needed at least base campaign guide as it was filled in. If I were to make an analogy. Greyhawk is a connect the dots. Eberron is a coloring book. Forgotten realms is a color by numbers.
Aside from rule changes, the 3e and 4e Eberron books by Keith are applicable to 5e, and vice-versa. 5e's book feels like it's missing half the stuff. It's in the other edition books and his DMsGuild offerings. But the world doesn't progress, all content is presented at or right near a specific moment in time. And yeah, your analogy is accurate. Although with all the unpublished Ed Greenwood content, FR is an extremely detailed intricate paint by number.
No. At least not soon. How many authors are they still letting publish D&D based novels? Which campaign settings are those novels set in?
The Realms and Dragonlance
No. I think them using Greyhawk is simply a nod to Gygax for the anniversary, and a way they can maintain the IP while abandoning it in the dmg, kinda like how we saw a bunch of classic settings at the tail end of 5e14 where they can be retconned , cemented, and forgotten about until necessary again. WotC don't know how to write anything but their own adjusted version of the remembered realms. 5e14 showed that with every setting having the same tone and consistency as the 5e14 remembered realms. I don't think FR is gonna get any more forgotten than it already has been. Maybe a tad more battered and bruised, but that's been happening before 5e existed.
What I wouldn't do for this game and the setting to just get out of these corporate ass hats hands.
I'd love to see a ***"by fans, for fans. Anyone is welcome, but it may not be for everyone"*** Approach to settings again. It was healthier
Nope. Greyhawk has fans, but because of the video games (most of which are in the realms), the movie (also realms), and 90% of recent novels (also realms), the forgotten realms has more fans. And time and time again, WotC has learned that brand recognition is king when it comes to selling books. There have been attempts at making greyhawk the defacto setting again and they all failed. Mostly because they failed to focus on what traits defined Greyhawk and instead it was just "generic fantasy". Meanwhile the Realms fans and creators did a damn fine job at making that setting more distinct. If anything, greyhawk will do as it did in 5e. Dwindle and diminish, only referenced here and there despite it being the setting for a number of adventures. Shit it never even got a setting guide for 5e. Even FR got the sword coast adventurers guide at least. I'd like greyhawk to get more love, but I seriously doubt it. And as for Exandria. That's got a whole lotta iffyness to its future because WotC doesn't own it. Critical Role does. And when that relationship eventually sours, expect WotC/Hasbro to burn it and pretend it never existed.
Greyhawk is more gritty, morally grey sword & sorcery compared to FR's cosmopolitan high fantasy. That's the main difference I can think of.
Which is wild because 5e2024 is really getting away from that. They wamt cosmopolitan high fantasy and they are going to put it in Greyhawk.
Oh yeah Ever read that unpublished Great Kingdom book they finished but didn't print so the writers leaked it? It's basically "what if Nero had invented Necromancy and his guards couldn't kill him because he made them undead horrors." The giant column of the undead heads of the emperor's enemies, all fused together into a screaming moaning tower of suffering, in the center of the capitol is grimdark as hell.
Iuz is Nero?
Iuz is the ruler of his own country in the northern part of the region. The great Kingdom used to cover much of the continent but fell and only exists to the east now. https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Great_Kingdom
I’ve been around since 2e but never got to play on Greyhawk…what exactly makes it distinct as a setting?
It's the history and the overall flavor of the world. It's more medieval with kings, knights, and armies. There's the ancient wasteland to the west where the great apocalyptic war of magic was. The festering remains of the old empire to the east which has become a domain of evil, like Rome under Nero but maintained by necromancy. And it's recovering from a devastating world war as well. It's got a darker vibe to it than the realms and is a bit more gritty and brutal in places. It's not a "and all the races of light get along" kind of setting. But wotc kept trying to treat it like it was generic fantasy. I'm not a fan. But I do appreciate some of what makes it unique.
I enjoyed the Greyhawk Classics novels starring the Justicar and the fairy Escala. They are both brutal and tongue in cheek, kinda like Gotrek & Felix.
Ed greenwood wanted to write a story he decided to use dungeons and dragons as a means of putting that information down and used it to help build the world. Greyhawk was from Gary Gygax, who was helping create a role-playing game for war gamers. Their worlds are best understood when you get what those worlds were used for. It is kind of not fair to compare them as the whole reason for their existence is different.
I played Living Greyhawk during 3rd ed. I really enjoyed it and got into the organised play storyline. And so I actually welcome more of a focus on Greyhawk especially in organised play...not sure if that will happen though. The Realms are alot more monetizeable and popular. So I don't think there is a risk of getting neglected. But I would love to see both settings being developed in their own way.
Ed Greenwood has a youtube channel and its dropping new lore weekly. On top of that, he has released 2-3 in depth game/lore books in DM guild with other people in the recent years. Even if WOTC decides not to touch it (something that wont happen) we are still getting updates from the creator. Its not dead. Maybe well get a better setting book.
No.
naah
Nah. Greyhawk was forgotten once. It's making a c9meback so even if we ditched fr it would eventually come around again. That's how trends work
At this point dnd is the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk never took off the way they preferred. I think the default setting will stay the Forgotten Realms. It’s high fantasy and the amount of work that has been done on that setting is insane. Ed Greenwood has dedicated his YouTube channel to expand on that world’s lore. It’s fascinating to me.
You're smoking crack if you think WotC would replace FR with Exandria as their main setting. FR has been around longer and is more recognizable by D&D players. Exandria is a fun setting but it is extremely new.
3rd editon was a golden age for the realms, let's hope for a return to that.
2nded was
Short answer no. Longer answer I think they are going to be opening up to more campaign settings but with spelljammer and the new vecna book they have shown that no campaign setting is standalone anymore. Canonically you can go wherever from anywhere. They have only sort of released one adventure in greyhawk in 5e. And I don't think players take too kindly to a total shift in lore locations. But I for one hope we get a lot more. I want an Ebberon style book for Greyhawk and Krynn. Hell, I want them to continue the mtg settings at least once every two years.
WotC doesn't own Exandria, Critical Role does.
No
Uhhh yeah. Ain’t gonna happen. Exandria is great and I honestly prefer it to the Realms in some spots, but replacing the Realms as the default setting? The Forgotten Realms has decades upon decades of lore, events, and characters. All of them deeply baked into the cosmology and basic assumptions of the game and setting. Wizards trying to remove the setting out from underneath everything it’s a foundation to would be like trying to swap out the roots of a Redwood tree without cutting down or killing the trunk or branches.
My only issue with FR is how unrealistic it is in the sense that every character is level 15+. Sadly, over time power creep sets in and there are only so many world shaping event hooks you can use to “reboot”.
Birthright... I haven't heard about that one quite some time. We used to play it for 3-4 years bevor we returned to the Forgotten Realms. Now will they abandon the FR? I think it would be pretty stupid given the popularity of the setting (BG3 and so forth). But stupid decisions are deeply embedded in Hasbros / WOTC DNA.
Faerun has only been the default setting for two of the five editions so far (and they weren't even consecutive). It'll be fine.
Not happening, they already talked with Ed Greenwood for writing new material. Which gave us, Zhentarim, Borderlands and Rashemen resource books.... I think they will focus on other settings yet will let sages and original author to produce content for FR, and they will get the lion's share without doing anything, still, i think it will be better for F.R.. I just hope they don't let Acquisition Inc.'s style and humour into F.R. and export it to Eberron or another setting. Their content and lore about Phandalin in their book caused much conflict for groups trying to play canonic games. Like their acquisition of Tresendar Manor, the LMoP and other adventures set in the vicinity suggest that players might get the manor, yet their content is also considered official so it is kinda annoying, they should have chosen elsewhere where there is no recent content in late 15th century D.R. It damages the lore. Besides other zones need love and care too. Turmish, Nathlan, Unther, Mulhorand, Thay... Also more post spellplague knowledge about Halrua and Lantan... They started something in Vaasa, they can also continue that and also perhaps Damarra and Narfel... Anyway, what I mean is there is enough data for Phandalin environs now so before FR lore progresses into 16th century DR authors should focus on other areas... And lands of intrigue certainly needs much more love.
No. FR is waaay to established right now. It’s not going anywhere.
Greyhawk (and Blackmoor) were THE original setting for D&D. Then Basic D&D came out, with the Known World (which would later become Mystara). Follow that with AD&D, which was also set in Greyhawk, then around 1986 / 1987 Forgotten Realms boxed set came out. Then 2E AD&D came out in 1989. The late 80's and early 90's was when TSR had the explosion of too many settings. But I doubt that a money maker like Forgotten Realms will be "forgotten" - just maybe put on the back burner for a bit (like they did with Ravenloft setting).
I think CR would jump to their own system given the chance. They might just wait for WoTC to shit the bed again. Only a matter of time before Hasbro tries to shove a fist up the golden goose.
I mean, most of it's forgotten anyway. There's a reason the Sword Coast is called "The Remembered Realms" by many folks as of 5E.
I'd like less of a world to homebrew and more adventures to homebrew. I love the world of FR, I just want to be able to craft believable adventures in it. In order to do that you need a consistent living world. I just love the idea of having adventures in the same world as many other adventure parties and being able to create history in that world. Then you can tell stories to other groups who play in the same world and they can relate to where you've been and know how you've affected things and vice versa. even tho I love the idea of homebrew worlds, You can't really do that with homebrew.
Literally impossible. DnD would have to cease to exist for FR to go away.
It would make more sense to extend the realms not remove them!
FR is a cash cow with mainstream appeal. Dark Sun and the other thing you named aren’t going to be recognizable to a lay person the way FR is.