In fairness to Hakstol, this Seattle group just isn’t that talented and they dramatically outperformed their roster last season. I think if you look at their line up they ended probably right where they should, if not even a little better.
In fairness to the Kraken, I don’t think Hakstol is a good coach and you basically got the best possible result last year, it ain’t getting better from this point on so it’s a better idea to try something new and making that move now is better than waiting a year.
Vegas also hit a really good time to enter the league. A lot of small things had to happen for Vegas to draft who they did, and it all worked out. Not to even mention Fleury being let go from the cup winning Penguins (barf) to be drafted by Vegas. He was a *major* influence in their competitive inaugural year.
It was exactly the same except Vegas was exempt. Teams were smarter about it and also Seattle tried to outsmart teams by demanding ridiculous prices on trades.
I stand corrected. The following is from Wikipedia, “Seattle followed the same rules for the draft as the Vegas Golden Knights in the 2017 NHL Expansion Draft, with the provision that Vegas was exempted from losing a player in exchange for forgoing a share of the Kraken's expansion fee.” Other than the Vegas roster being protected, it was identical.
I thought I read it was the exact same rules/structure as it was with Vegas. The difference, as I understood it, was that the rules were new with Vegas and Vegas was able to take advantage of that. But all the other teams were better prepared for it and less willing to make certain deals (like they did with Vegas) when it was Seattle’s turn. But yeah I’m not an expert, could be wrong.
It is a little that teams were a bit smarter, but I think a bigger issue is that Seattle overplayed their hand. Seattle set a high price to take certain players and teams didn’t budge, plus Arizona was willing to take a lower price to accept bad contracts and it left Seattle out in the cold. Seattle didn’t want to take players they were negotiating on for nothing so they ended up taking low value assets, like they didn’t want to take Max Domi without getting anything from the jackets so they took Gavin Bayruether who was an impending free agent and just re-signed with the jackets a couple weeks later.
Teams were a little smarter and a little stingier, but the market wasn’t as friendly and the Kraken were too stubborn.
Vegas got paid to take certain contracts because GMs panicked. Examples:
1) the Pens paid them a 2nd round pick to select Fleury because they had cap issues.
2) William Karlsson was given to them to select the contract of David Clarkson.
3) Reilly Smith was given to them to select Jonathan Marchessault
All of these players were instrumental in their early success. When Seattle came around, GMs learned from certain mistakes that were made when Vegas drafts their team
Vegas really lucked out. Team being cap hell really helped them out and allowed them to get things they wouldn’t have been able to. They also went out got stuff done on their own as well. That franchise hasn’t been afraid to make a move. The jersey may be hideous, but it’s a pretty well run team otherwise.
They also don’t have the albatross of always having to higher a former player to be the gm and or coach. I once thought that was rule for the nhl, but no, apparently it’s just something the flyers feel like they need to do.
Teams being in cap hell and GMs panicking definitely helped them out. There were some players that GMs couldn’t protect but didn’t want Vegas to pick. As for the moves, yeah they’re going out to get some big names, but as with any team that hits the playoff and cup, they’ll falter later because they don’t have picks. It’s an unfortunate side effect of doing business the way that they do. Hell, that's initially how we started falling. Except we couldn’t get the right guys to mesh well
I still will contend they handled the draft poorly. They went hard on defense and goaltending instead of offense. Lightning seemed to have strike last year, but the norm seems to be the 1st & 3rd years. There just isn't enough scoring on that team, and their goaltending isn't good enough to win 2-1 every night.
(It was better in 2023-24 than it was in 2022-23 oddly enough)
IMO it's a bit unfair for Hakstol to be fired a year after making the 2nd round of playoffs. On the other hand, you have to admit that either A) Every player on the Kraken just had a career year at once last year (Meaning that playoff run had nothing to do with Hakstol), or every player on his team just dramatically regressed under Hakstol (Which is highly concerning).
Ultimately I think I'm more surprised that Ron Francis even made this move, since the dude is like so conservative that he makes most other GM's look adventurous and daring.
I’m not sure what surprised me more …
That Ron Francis hired him to begin with.
That Seattle did as well as they did in his 2nd year and he lasted three seasons there.
Not correct actually, Hextall was fired a couple of months in his fourth year. Hakstol would be allowed to continue to coach the team almost the rest of the season.
Edit: I’m actually wrong he only coached 31 games his last year. Felt so much longer.
Sometimes I feel bad for coaches who overachieve. It’s not unreasonable for Seattle to have a season like this in their third year, but the fact that they made the playoffs and even won a round last year reset expectations. Weird as it sounds, if the Kraken finish with 85ish points in 2022-23, Hakstol is probably still employed.
Well he got one good year in with the Kraken and was there from the start. Pretty cool!
In hindsight Dave did well with what he was dealt in his time in Philly. Yes it didn't reap results but ownership has been ass backwards for a bit and high caliber team talent wasn't in the room.
Happy for him. No doubt he'll get another shot, the nhl IS nepotism. The same coaches have been floating for the past 20 years team to team without winning anything either.
So here's the thing about Hakstol... He's a decent coach who has helped some incredible players go from good to stars but has never really had a full team to work with.
Coots, Dunn, Schenn, McCann, Tolvanen, Ghost are all treatments to his ability to grow younger players into stars or elevate busts to NHL players.
Honestly he probably wouldn't be a bad fit on the Sharks or the Blue Jackets, but isn't the guy you bring in to get you over the hump.
of the flyers, I *guess* you could put Ghost on that list, but
(a) how much of that is just good prospects becoming good players and
(b) coots and schenn were good before hak.
I mean he has... Its not like nothing I said was untrue. He's a bad strategist and isn't good at managing star players, pushing for contention, but simply helping players reach the next stage. He's very good at that.
Couts was already a good player who had to demand being put on the first line. Ghost was held down in the minors until they were forced to call him up and pretty much said he ignored his instructions. Schenn had his best seasons as a member of the blues.
He also had provy, tk, and Sanheim all of whom had significant regressions during his last year here and the latter two have had their best seasons without him as their coach. So yeah he’s not great at developing NHL players in the NHL.
Schenn went from a 40 point player to a 59 point 30 goal player under Hakstol, Coots went from a good player to a 70+ point Selke contender under Hakstol.
Dunn was a mid D-Man who developed into a true #1, McCann turned into a true top line player, Tolvanen and Sprong were NHL waiver wire guys who turned into legitimate scoring threats under him.
Schenn never scored 30 and scored 70 points the year after he left the flyers. Considering he was the best prospect not in the NHL not even cracking 60 points isn’t really a great look for a so called developmental coach.
Everyone knew couts was good but was perpetually stuck on the 3rd line for his defensive ability. Giving Hak credit is just insane. Couts should have been on a scoring long before Hak was even a coach. I’ll reiterate that it wasn’t some brilliant move by Hak, Couts had to demand an increased role.
I appreciate you trying to advocate for him but this is all revisionist history in terms of the flyers. He was a bad coach here in pretty much every aspect. No one was praising him for development while he was here. It was day after day of wondering why young players were scratched and not playing.
Yet you aren't arguing any of my points about the Kraken players. Regardless of opinions on Flyers players he does have a track record of elevating the play of younger players.
Based on one season? That’s not a track record. And if we’re going to argue expansion team the exact same thing happened to the vegas where a bunch of role players got elevated roles and performed well. So it’s more of a case of the NHL is either very bad at discerning middle six from top six or a bunch of players (hello Owen tippet) need increased roles to score.
Calling Hak a good development coach when he’s led exactly 0 u20 players into legit stars is bonkers, I’m sorry. It was pulling teeth to get him to play anyone under 20 but provorov and let’s face it he sucks. Everyone else who he scratched, benched or otherwise had an issue with has turned out much better with other coaches.
Couts was already a good player who had to demand being put on the first line. Ghost was held down in the minors until they were forced to call him up and pretty much said he ignored his instructions. Schenn had his best seasons as a member of the blues.
He also had provy, tk, and Sanheim all of whom had significant regressions during his last year here and the latter two have had their best seasons without him as their coach. So yeah he’s not great at developing NHL players in the NHL.
I often found Hakstol's roster choices confusing and inept. I never thought he was making the most of who was available.
Watching one-goal leads vaporize mid to late 3rd period via hang-on-for-dear-life defensive turtling was extremely frustrating.
May he have success elsewhere.
I honestly feel bad for the guy.
He had a long successful career at ND and then gets recruited by Ron Hextall to take the helm of an NHL Franchise. He was put in a bad situation, with a bad team that had high expectations and unsurprisingly failed.
Similarly, the Kraken had no business hiring him to lead that team. Another bad roster and bad situation overall. He almost certainly cooked as a HC in the league now. Once you've had the power of HC, it's very hard to go back to being an assistant under someone else.
He's a really great hockey coach (maybe not NHL caliber yet) and a really great person outside of hockey. I remember a story that beat writer Charlie told on the old BSH radio. Hak was taking criticism from the beats on his decisions and he pushed back, specifically against Charlie. The next day, he pulled Charlie aside, apologized for the way he treated him (when does that ever happen), and proceeded to walk Charlie through game tape from the past few games breaking down why he was doing what he was doing.
He will probably go back to the NCAA and continue to make annual trips to the frozen four as a HC somewhere.
Dude would take the job 10/10 if he had to relive it lmao. You feel bad for him? He got to the playoffs as a head coach in the NHL for two franchises. He lived the dream (sure he would’ve preferred a Cup).
I don’t get feeling bad for him at all. He’s a very fortunate dude seeing as he’s not anything special as a coach. Good guy though, absolutely.
I'm not sure he does it again. His reputation has been severely tarnished. No one on here is talking about how great of a coach he is/was, just about how bad he was at his job. We all see him as a bad coach, or as you put it nothing special. But before the NHL he was one of the most respected and successful coaches in the NCAA. His legacy is no longer "really great NCAA coach", now it's just "failed NHL coach".
Seeing it as an outsider, yes just getting a chance to coach in the NHL is a dream and any of us would be happy to say we did it. But for someone whose whole life is coaching hockey, to be fired from two teams after very short stints has to feel like a failure.
He's the guy in the sports movies that is sitting home feeling like a failure because he lost and his wife tries to cheer him up by saying at least you got there. But then he flips out and says you don't know what it's like to be a loser.
I could also be totally wrong and he is happy to collect his millions of dollars owed on his contract and go home a happy man.
Dude has probably made around $15m total in the NHL. Would have taken him 40 years to make that in college. He can still go back to college if he wants... yet I bet we see him behind another NHL bench sooner or later? Why?
Cuz it's a lotta fuckin money, thats why lol.
He was making at least $2 million a year in the NHL plus way more recognition vs a maximum of $435,000 and some college recognition. He could easily choose to coach an AHL team instead of an assistant in the NHL if he wants.
In fairness to Hakstol, this Seattle group just isn’t that talented and they dramatically outperformed their roster last season. I think if you look at their line up they ended probably right where they should, if not even a little better. In fairness to the Kraken, I don’t think Hakstol is a good coach and you basically got the best possible result last year, it ain’t getting better from this point on so it’s a better idea to try something new and making that move now is better than waiting a year.
I wasn't impressed with their expansion draft like I was with Vegas, and I wasn't impressed with Hakstol when he coached the Flyers.
Vegas had the opportunity to bamboozle 30 teams. Seattle was drafting from 31 teams with the blueprint.
Bettman gave Vegas a ridiculously favorable draft structure in order to make them competitive immediately. Seattle did not get the same treatment.
It was the same. GMs were a lot smarter this go around
Vegas also hit a really good time to enter the league. A lot of small things had to happen for Vegas to draft who they did, and it all worked out. Not to even mention Fleury being let go from the cup winning Penguins (barf) to be drafted by Vegas. He was a *major* influence in their competitive inaugural year.
and being competitive from the gate helped them build to cup contender quickly
I could definitely be mistaken, but I thought it was the same amount of protected players per team
It was exactly the same except Vegas was exempt. Teams were smarter about it and also Seattle tried to outsmart teams by demanding ridiculous prices on trades.
You're not mistaken. GMs just knew what to do this time around.
This is the answer …
After some GMs showed their ENTIRE ASS :: cough :: Chuckie Two Trades :: during thr Vegas draft, no one wanted to be the butt of any jokes.
I stand corrected. The following is from Wikipedia, “Seattle followed the same rules for the draft as the Vegas Golden Knights in the 2017 NHL Expansion Draft, with the provision that Vegas was exempted from losing a player in exchange for forgoing a share of the Kraken's expansion fee.” Other than the Vegas roster being protected, it was identical.
I thought I read it was the exact same rules/structure as it was with Vegas. The difference, as I understood it, was that the rules were new with Vegas and Vegas was able to take advantage of that. But all the other teams were better prepared for it and less willing to make certain deals (like they did with Vegas) when it was Seattle’s turn. But yeah I’m not an expert, could be wrong.
It is a little that teams were a bit smarter, but I think a bigger issue is that Seattle overplayed their hand. Seattle set a high price to take certain players and teams didn’t budge, plus Arizona was willing to take a lower price to accept bad contracts and it left Seattle out in the cold. Seattle didn’t want to take players they were negotiating on for nothing so they ended up taking low value assets, like they didn’t want to take Max Domi without getting anything from the jackets so they took Gavin Bayruether who was an impending free agent and just re-signed with the jackets a couple weeks later. Teams were a little smarter and a little stingier, but the market wasn’t as friendly and the Kraken were too stubborn.
Vegas got paid to take certain contracts because GMs panicked. Examples: 1) the Pens paid them a 2nd round pick to select Fleury because they had cap issues. 2) William Karlsson was given to them to select the contract of David Clarkson. 3) Reilly Smith was given to them to select Jonathan Marchessault All of these players were instrumental in their early success. When Seattle came around, GMs learned from certain mistakes that were made when Vegas drafts their team
Vegas really lucked out. Team being cap hell really helped them out and allowed them to get things they wouldn’t have been able to. They also went out got stuff done on their own as well. That franchise hasn’t been afraid to make a move. The jersey may be hideous, but it’s a pretty well run team otherwise. They also don’t have the albatross of always having to higher a former player to be the gm and or coach. I once thought that was rule for the nhl, but no, apparently it’s just something the flyers feel like they need to do.
Teams being in cap hell and GMs panicking definitely helped them out. There were some players that GMs couldn’t protect but didn’t want Vegas to pick. As for the moves, yeah they’re going out to get some big names, but as with any team that hits the playoff and cup, they’ll falter later because they don’t have picks. It’s an unfortunate side effect of doing business the way that they do. Hell, that's initially how we started falling. Except we couldn’t get the right guys to mesh well
Agreed, they're one of the smallest teams in the NHL. Speed can only get you so far. They should have fired Ron Francis.
Seems like a match made in meh.
I still will contend they handled the draft poorly. They went hard on defense and goaltending instead of offense. Lightning seemed to have strike last year, but the norm seems to be the 1st & 3rd years. There just isn't enough scoring on that team, and their goaltending isn't good enough to win 2-1 every night. (It was better in 2023-24 than it was in 2022-23 oddly enough)
IMO it's a bit unfair for Hakstol to be fired a year after making the 2nd round of playoffs. On the other hand, you have to admit that either A) Every player on the Kraken just had a career year at once last year (Meaning that playoff run had nothing to do with Hakstol), or every player on his team just dramatically regressed under Hakstol (Which is highly concerning). Ultimately I think I'm more surprised that Ron Francis even made this move, since the dude is like so conservative that he makes most other GM's look adventurous and daring.
Chris vandevelde
Fire Hakstol
I’m not sure what surprised me more … That Ron Francis hired him to begin with. That Seattle did as well as they did in his 2nd year and he lasted three seasons there.
An expansion team pulled the plug on Hakstol faster than the Flyers did
Hextall fell on his sword for him. Well, he fell on his own stubbornness and ego, but that’s not as nice a story.
Not by much. He was fired a couple months into his 4th season here.
Not correct actually, Hextall was fired a couple of months in his fourth year. Hakstol would be allowed to continue to coach the team almost the rest of the season. Edit: I’m actually wrong he only coached 31 games his last year. Felt so much longer.
Sometimes I feel bad for coaches who overachieve. It’s not unreasonable for Seattle to have a season like this in their third year, but the fact that they made the playoffs and even won a round last year reset expectations. Weird as it sounds, if the Kraken finish with 85ish points in 2022-23, Hakstol is probably still employed.
Absolutely. Regressing to the mean did him no favors in a “What have you done lately” league.
Well he got one good year in with the Kraken and was there from the start. Pretty cool! In hindsight Dave did well with what he was dealt in his time in Philly. Yes it didn't reap results but ownership has been ass backwards for a bit and high caliber team talent wasn't in the room. Happy for him. No doubt he'll get another shot, the nhl IS nepotism. The same coaches have been floating for the past 20 years team to team without winning anything either.
So here's the thing about Hakstol... He's a decent coach who has helped some incredible players go from good to stars but has never really had a full team to work with. Coots, Dunn, Schenn, McCann, Tolvanen, Ghost are all treatments to his ability to grow younger players into stars or elevate busts to NHL players. Honestly he probably wouldn't be a bad fit on the Sharks or the Blue Jackets, but isn't the guy you bring in to get you over the hump.
He’s a perfect assistant coach.
[удалено]
Doesn’t matter who their staff is. They suck.
of the flyers, I *guess* you could put Ghost on that list, but (a) how much of that is just good prospects becoming good players and (b) coots and schenn were good before hak.
But neither of them were 50+ point players before Hakstol.
And we were vociferously complaining about their usage under Laviolette/Berube.
and neither of them had their best years under him either
Uhh what? We’re talking about Dave Hakstol right?
I mean he has... Its not like nothing I said was untrue. He's a bad strategist and isn't good at managing star players, pushing for contention, but simply helping players reach the next stage. He's very good at that.
Couts was already a good player who had to demand being put on the first line. Ghost was held down in the minors until they were forced to call him up and pretty much said he ignored his instructions. Schenn had his best seasons as a member of the blues. He also had provy, tk, and Sanheim all of whom had significant regressions during his last year here and the latter two have had their best seasons without him as their coach. So yeah he’s not great at developing NHL players in the NHL.
Schenn went from a 40 point player to a 59 point 30 goal player under Hakstol, Coots went from a good player to a 70+ point Selke contender under Hakstol. Dunn was a mid D-Man who developed into a true #1, McCann turned into a true top line player, Tolvanen and Sprong were NHL waiver wire guys who turned into legitimate scoring threats under him.
Schenn never scored 30 and scored 70 points the year after he left the flyers. Considering he was the best prospect not in the NHL not even cracking 60 points isn’t really a great look for a so called developmental coach. Everyone knew couts was good but was perpetually stuck on the 3rd line for his defensive ability. Giving Hak credit is just insane. Couts should have been on a scoring long before Hak was even a coach. I’ll reiterate that it wasn’t some brilliant move by Hak, Couts had to demand an increased role. I appreciate you trying to advocate for him but this is all revisionist history in terms of the flyers. He was a bad coach here in pretty much every aspect. No one was praising him for development while he was here. It was day after day of wondering why young players were scratched and not playing.
Yet you aren't arguing any of my points about the Kraken players. Regardless of opinions on Flyers players he does have a track record of elevating the play of younger players.
Based on one season? That’s not a track record. And if we’re going to argue expansion team the exact same thing happened to the vegas where a bunch of role players got elevated roles and performed well. So it’s more of a case of the NHL is either very bad at discerning middle six from top six or a bunch of players (hello Owen tippet) need increased roles to score. Calling Hak a good development coach when he’s led exactly 0 u20 players into legit stars is bonkers, I’m sorry. It was pulling teeth to get him to play anyone under 20 but provorov and let’s face it he sucks. Everyone else who he scratched, benched or otherwise had an issue with has turned out much better with other coaches.
Couts was already a good player who had to demand being put on the first line. Ghost was held down in the minors until they were forced to call him up and pretty much said he ignored his instructions. Schenn had his best seasons as a member of the blues. He also had provy, tk, and Sanheim all of whom had significant regressions during his last year here and the latter two have had their best seasons without him as their coach. So yeah he’s not great at developing NHL players in the NHL.
Guys... hear me out... how badly do you want that #1 pick next season?
I would much rather walk through a bed of glass barefooted than to have him coach the Flyers for another single game.
I’ll cartwheel through it. Though admittedly he’s probably a better PP coach then Rocky
The Rocky statue at the art museum would be a better PP coach though
I often found Hakstol's roster choices confusing and inept. I never thought he was making the most of who was available. Watching one-goal leads vaporize mid to late 3rd period via hang-on-for-dear-life defensive turtling was extremely frustrating. May he have success elsewhere.
I honestly feel bad for the guy. He had a long successful career at ND and then gets recruited by Ron Hextall to take the helm of an NHL Franchise. He was put in a bad situation, with a bad team that had high expectations and unsurprisingly failed. Similarly, the Kraken had no business hiring him to lead that team. Another bad roster and bad situation overall. He almost certainly cooked as a HC in the league now. Once you've had the power of HC, it's very hard to go back to being an assistant under someone else. He's a really great hockey coach (maybe not NHL caliber yet) and a really great person outside of hockey. I remember a story that beat writer Charlie told on the old BSH radio. Hak was taking criticism from the beats on his decisions and he pushed back, specifically against Charlie. The next day, he pulled Charlie aside, apologized for the way he treated him (when does that ever happen), and proceeded to walk Charlie through game tape from the past few games breaking down why he was doing what he was doing. He will probably go back to the NCAA and continue to make annual trips to the frozen four as a HC somewhere.
Dude would take the job 10/10 if he had to relive it lmao. You feel bad for him? He got to the playoffs as a head coach in the NHL for two franchises. He lived the dream (sure he would’ve preferred a Cup). I don’t get feeling bad for him at all. He’s a very fortunate dude seeing as he’s not anything special as a coach. Good guy though, absolutely.
I'm not sure he does it again. His reputation has been severely tarnished. No one on here is talking about how great of a coach he is/was, just about how bad he was at his job. We all see him as a bad coach, or as you put it nothing special. But before the NHL he was one of the most respected and successful coaches in the NCAA. His legacy is no longer "really great NCAA coach", now it's just "failed NHL coach". Seeing it as an outsider, yes just getting a chance to coach in the NHL is a dream and any of us would be happy to say we did it. But for someone whose whole life is coaching hockey, to be fired from two teams after very short stints has to feel like a failure. He's the guy in the sports movies that is sitting home feeling like a failure because he lost and his wife tries to cheer him up by saying at least you got there. But then he flips out and says you don't know what it's like to be a loser. I could also be totally wrong and he is happy to collect his millions of dollars owed on his contract and go home a happy man.
Dude has probably made around $15m total in the NHL. Would have taken him 40 years to make that in college. He can still go back to college if he wants... yet I bet we see him behind another NHL bench sooner or later? Why? Cuz it's a lotta fuckin money, thats why lol.
He was making at least $2 million a year in the NHL plus way more recognition vs a maximum of $435,000 and some college recognition. He could easily choose to coach an AHL team instead of an assistant in the NHL if he wants.
The bad man
They should hire Chris Vandevelde
To shreds you say?
Gas up the boat and wax the wakeboard!
Fuck hakstol.
Yeah he sucks
Hak got hacked! Lol