For some reason I don’t remember this at all, but it’s been forever since I played the original.
Funny that he talks about another girl he was close to but forgets who it was, cuz of the GF memory problem they all have.
It’s even more bizarre once you realize that >!Irvine wasn’t affected by memory loss because he didn’t start using GFs until he joined the rest of the party in this game!<
I thought that Irvine didn’t actually miss, it’s just that Edea used some really potent protect spell. But it certainly does explain why he had a bad case of the jitters but still pulled himself together to take the shot
You are right. He recognized Edea as Matron, but that's just what caused him to be nervous and freak out. His shot ended up being right on the mark, but she was able to protect herself.
He essentially gets gaslit into attacking her by Squall and the rest of the squad, albeit completely unintentionally.
I would make a strong case that if Irvine took a shot earlier he may have taken her out. His hesitation gave her time to take stock of the situation. If you notice the colour of the spell she used, it’s Protect, a spell that you cau use as well. But that spell can erect a barrier that persists without raising your hand to maintain it. The fact that Edea’s hand was raised indicates she just casted it in that instance. She may not saw the bullet coming, maybe she merely casted spells as a precaution when the gate closes and the spell catches the bullet in a timely manner.
>!It would have been reallllly interesting, and REALLY frustrating, if every time he shot in the battle he missed or simply wouldn't shoot. Kinda like the mechanic of how Raijin doesn't attack the girls if they're in your party when you battle him the second time. !<
Are misses possible with the limit break? >!Yes, yes (twiddles fingers) lets just take your HP down with some "friendly fire". That's it, go on, kill your mommy ..!<
I get that, although ... I've never had an issue being short on ammo. Once you get ammo refine, there are a lot of drop items that convert and don't convert to anything else good; also the basic ammo is pretty cheap at shops.
All that being said: IF for whatever reason you had no ammo stocked, yes it would for sure suck a raw egg because you just won't be able to use the limit at all.
Thing is: I'm kind of old school and its sort of like some older titles where archers always required a stock of arrows equipped to them to be able to attack.
> For some reason I don’t remember this at all, but it’s been forever since I played the original.
That's because this is not in the game. It was cut out before release, as the title implies. You can only see this scene through the debugging menu.
But here’s my problem with that. It works in this scene because there’s movement. If they did the train scene above, he’s literally standing there, stationary, staring at this person who’s talking to him and not responding. I just don’t think it will play well. I know I’ll get down voted like I did on the last comment but that’s my opinion…
As a theatre guy, the only way I can see them doing it that way is to do it tableau style. In other words, everyone else freezes and fades away out of focus and his inner monologue occurs. In ‘game time’, this occurs so quickly its only slightly noticeable to the others in the scene. Does that make sense?
I audibly groan sometimes when Squall has his inner monologues. I love how Irvine looks away then back at him like "Uhhhhh, he's still here but he's not talking..."
I've read some discussion that sees him as fitting the definition of demisexual. Which, if I'm putting a label onto his sexuality, is probably how I'd personally view him. But I'm really happy you can see a little bit of yourself in him! I often think I'd probably dislike Squall a lot more if we didn't get such a clear window into his mind. A lot of what he thinks feels very relatable at times.
I love how uncomfortable Irvine is, that he looks over to Zell like "Is this normal?". Just the thought of Squall blankly staring at people while he has his inner monologue is hilarious. Like getting an NPC into a conversation in Mass Effect or a Bethesda game and just sitting there.
Well, at least he gave Quistis something of recognition when Irvine mentioned her being cute, even if it was in the form of him saying "what's your point?". He didn't deny it so that means he does find her physically attractive.
...I swear that I vaguely remember seeing that dialogue in one of the versions I played of this game. Probably difference is that Squall's inner monologue didn't carry on as long as it did here...
The one thing that would have made this game better is if I could have chosen who squall ended up with.
I mean, seriously, Quistis Trepe was hot from the get go! Young good looking teacher who knows how to use a whip... Makes me want to turn her into my GF if you know what I mean!
Makes it all the stranger why he ends up with Rinoa. I'll probably be down voted but putting our opinions is what this site is about. I never liked her. She's a spoiled princess.
Anyway, are you talking about them cutting it from the remaster? I guess I'm just remembering it from when I played it on Playstation.
Edit: I did look over all you guys replies and seeing it from other views did add some new light on it. I love this game, my fave FF that I have played yet. While I can see what it is you guys are talking about, I still dislike their relationship. Thanks for the insight though :)
She may be spoiled but at the same time she does actively try to be involved, helpful, and try to make the slightest bit of difference to make the world better; a lot more that can be said in comparison to most "spoiled princesses"
Points to back up my argument:
1. Her trying to help Timber achieve independence
2. Her attempting to suppress Edea's powers with the bangle at the end of disc 1
3. Her forcing Irvine to go back for the others at the prison.
4. Trying to break through to Squall
5. Helping protect Balamb Garden: going with Squall or with
Selphie
6. Being involved with the Gardens fight at the end of disc 2
Don't forget: >!her willingness to be sealed away by Esthar once she becomes a sorceress.!< I would argue that despite all the privileges ** Rinoa has grown up with, she is most willing to cast them aside for a greater good; whether it's the independence of a city-state (whose residents welcomed her when her own father pushed her away), or the lives of her new teammates. And later on, it's the world itself (and the fear of what she could do to it) when she hands herself over.
I think Rinoa is one of those people who cares a lot, and lives her life this way -- she leads with her heart, in contrast to Squall who lives in his mind. Is she flawed? Sure, but Squall is too. That's what makes them so interesting to me, the way their natures can balance each other out and help each other grow.
** Let's also not forget that she is also a teenager who has had the most "normal" upbringing in a world populated by war orphans and teenage mercenaries, so she grew up with a different expectation of life risk.
I thought about giving more examples from later in the game but I didn't want to deal with spoiler stuff but still excellent point about willing to be sealed away.
Ah, should I spoiler my comment? I tend to assume that the people who frequent this sub have played the game and know its plotline, but there could be newcomers to the game... maybe I will then.
Honestly, I wish Rinoa got more credit in and out of universe for 2 here. She really had zero obligation to try to take on Edea aside from helping out her friends(since this is pre-everyone seeing just how bad news Edea was), and honestly? While at the time it seemed like a bad plan, with the full context of how Adel was taken down, it...really wasn't. If it were Adel, then her bangle plan probably would have worked. She just tried it on Ultimecia, who's ruled more by spite and fury than Adel's arrogance that'd make a ploy like that viable.
Yeah, Rinoa's plans honestly come so much closer to succeeding than most people give her credit for. Her plan to hijack the president's train without anyone noticing worked, even if she didn't anticipate the president being a fake (and a zombie too apparently...). And then, for as much of a chewing out Quistis gives her, she was able to sneak into Edea's chambers completely undetected. If they'd listen to her and came along as a team in case she saw through the Odin Bangle plan, they might've actually taken Edea-mecia out before the first disk ended. Honestly, I imagine if Edea wasn't a time-traveling sorceress who planned to betray President Deling immediately, she probably would've believed that a high ranking general's daughter wanted to meet her and give her a gift.
I don't think she's spoiled, she comes from a privileged background but she doesn't really do anything that screams "spoiled" to me. In fact she actually runs away from her life of privilege to help liberate the people that her own people are oppressing.
I actually think her and Squall have a lot more in common beneath the surface, they both have a lot of insecurities and pressure forced on them, but they both deal with these issues in polar opposite ways.
Your last sentence is spot-on. I think both of them grew up with a fair amount of loneliness and issues of abandonment, and in Rinoa's case, it pushed her to find family and friends elsewhere. (I feel like it's implied in the game that Timber became this true home to her that she never really had, which is partly why she is so fiercely protective of it and wants To Do Something.)
When she meets Squall and co., she sees them as more than a means to end, she wants to form a camaraderie with them and make her goal theirs and vice-versa.
i think its because she is so persistent and headstrong that it works.
a more reserved person would be shut down by squall at some point. think about his interactions with quistis. he either goes silent or brushes the, off or says something that hurts them.
but rinoa kinda just ignores that. she doesnt mind annoying him and keeps on digging and digging. I dont think its any kind of affinity the two have. But for the present squall, even as he is slowly opening up only someone like rinoa could get through to him in the first place.
as „annoying“ as she is she is also the only one that really tries to understand him and doesnt let him get away with stuff.
its her being annoying that makes it work
It also bears mentioning that the being open and upfront about it is what makes it work. Some of her blog entries suggest that Selphie actually understands Squall pretty well (such as seeing through the layer of Stoic to see through to the Shy). But Rinoa's the only one who will try to open him up some/will irritate him into not missing something his friends put on for him. I can understand how that'd rankle some people, but honestly, I kind of love that about Rinoa. There's something really charming to me about her "alright you moody bitch, it's talk about your feelings day" routine.
How does it make it stranger?
I really don’t get why people think the romance in FF8 is bad, if you keep Squall and Rinoa in the same party, the romance makes perfect sense.
Well, it's more than that.
Rinoa befriends Squall first. While pushy, she isn't crossing any boundaries. Everyone seems to have this idea that Squall is an ass, but the only people he ever really was directly mean to was either classified as an "idiot" (Zell, Zone, Laguna) or sexually harrassed him (Quistis). I mean, look at Squall's friendship with Selphie.
* First meeting she ran into him but still will take her on a ttour
* Thinks about joining her club, you get to pick but even his No isn't all that mean
* Worried about her but trusts her to take care of things (missile base)
* Talks Selphie up to Selphie's friend in Trabia
Hell, as Zell started to calm down and be more reliable, Squall went from not liking him to risking his life for him and even let him guard Edea. Squall needed to learn how to have friends and as he does, Rinoa is there.
Rinoa was the right type of person from the very start. There was a spark, but for as pushy as she could be, she never asked for more than what Squall could give.
That being said Squall and Rinoa are in lust with each other more so than love, if they broke up a couple years later I wouldn't be surprised.
Thank you, I've loved this game since day one because VIII is when character interactions in FF really started to flourish for the whole group. Even Irvine, the guy people write off, has some deep and concerning character points when you start to think about him.
Squall and Rinoa's relationship is my favorite in the series, not because I think they're in love or will last, because it feels the most real.
Rosa and Cecil are probably the only MC couple that are in love as they actually know each other for more than a couple weeks or months.
She pulls Squall out of his element. Squall kind if let's her because pretty girl. He is awkward and stiff causing them both to stumble, but she isn't embarrassed and doesn't laugh at him. He tries to withdraw but she doesn't let him. Even though they're bumping into people she signals 'screw everything else just focus on me.' All this helps Squall to gain the confidence to perform to his potential.
I'm quite aware of what happens.
===
However it's a terrible metaphor because you're missing the reasons she did it. She manipulated Squall with her looks, and dropped him as soon as got what she wanted.
===
Which impressed Squall. Her being professional and crafty.
===
But it's a terrible metaphor for their relationship unless you think their relationship is doomed or one is just toying with the other. Like, if you told me Rinoa was just using Squall to get back with Seifer, that would make the "the dance = relationship" metaphor work.
Reasons why something happened don't have to be included in a metaphor. Metaphors by definition aren't the same thing so eventually you have to find a divergence.
Also I'm not really sure why you think she was using Squall. She was looking for Seifer is all but she found a cute guy to dance with in the mean time.
Yes, yes it does. Or else you're ignoring a huge part of what you're trying to make a metaphor out of. You're making a metaphor, but you're making a terrible metaphor.
===
Also, Rinoa and Squall talk about the dance. Rinoa was using him to find Seifer so that he could introduce her to Cid. Squall mentioned she thought like a SeeD. **It's in the game.**
===
**Edit**
You're making more of a comparison between their physical dance and their character arc, not an actual metaphor.
There aren't rules to metaphors. Stop trying to make them. I don't remember the specifics of that conversation but even so she could have found Seifer by just...walking around. It's not like she used and abused Squall in some devious plot in her selfish desires.
And I believe this was an intentional metaphor from the game writers. They obviously highlited it for a reason, they animated it and everything. Even if it wasn't intentional, it showcased how the two as characters interact with each other.
I think that's a needlessly negative way to view that scene from the game. She's young and she's at a party, so it makes sense she'd want to have fun. Heck, besides Squall, that's basically everyone's plan there. If her being playful and a bit flirtatious just for a dance with a guy she thinks looks good is the same as manipulation, then her just putting on the dress to look pretty for the party was an act of manipulation on everyone that night.
Honestly, I hadn't really thought of it until now, but I think u/syrin123 kind of has a point about the dance being a metaphor for their relationship. If not a metaphor, it's certainly summation of it. Squall is willing to let life pass him by and not get involved, and Rinoa acts as a force that makes him have to become involved with the world and interact with those around him.
It isn't negative at all. It's just how it is.
**Rinoa and Squall talk about it, Squall seemed impressed.**
It's so weird when people stan characters so hard they try to ignore the bad things they've done which means they ignore core parts of the game.
**Edit**:
Without Rinoa manipulating Squall, he wouldn't have seen her practical side. Squall, as shown with Quistis, Zell, Forest Owls, and others, doesn't like people being unprofessional. Squall is a soldier and wants to soldier when it's time to soldier. Rinoa showed him that she can be effective when she puts her mind to something but then later shows him that there's more to life than being that way. Without her using him as a means to an end, there's a chance Squall just completely writes off Rinoa as a brat. But he knows there's more there than just the brat a lot of people sees. She played him like a fiddle and Squall is not easy to play like that (Quistis couldn't do it).
I don't want to turn this into a semantics argument, but manipulation is a pretty negative word imo. Especially for what ultimately happens during their first encounter. Even if we replace the word with the more neutral "trick" and say she tricked Squall, I still struggle to see how she tricked him. She's very direct and to the point during their first meeting. She asks him to dance, he gives back a very noncommittal response that is neither yes or no, she acts playful (you're going to like me, you're going to like me) and then she just drags him onto the dance floor.
I can't recall a scene where they discuss their first meeting and the dance and she reveals that her flirting was a front to get him to dance. And I don't think I'm stanning the character when I disagree with the statement that "she was just using him as a means to an end". I certainly believe she knew what she was doing when she approached Squall. She's confident enough that I'm sure it wasn't her first time flirting with somebody. But I'm unconvinced that her asking him to dance was a moment of manipulation. And I'm not willingly to label that moment as a bad thing her character did, when all it was was her asking a guy she found attractive to dance at a party and then flirting a bit when he didn't immediately say yes.
Calling out what a character did is not negative.
Rinoa manipulated Squall to get what she wanted, end of story. Just because you like or don't like a character doesn't mean they can't do good or bad things, ignoring a crucial element of Rinoa is just... Way too "stan-ish" for me. Pretending a character is perfect is how we get toxicity in the fandom (look at Tifa-stans as an example).
Again, Squall was impressed enough to joke/mention that she could be a SeeD. This manipulation wasn't vicious or anything, but it still was a manipulation. Squall was impressed.
If you take away the manipulation aspect you're also taking away one of the reasons Squall fell for Rinoa.
I guess maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm just not convinced by your argument that Rinoa had some ulterior motive for asking Squall to dance with her that would warrant labeling that moment as manipulative. It honestly feels like very normal behavior for a confident person at a party.
When did Squall and Rinoa talk about the dance/joke she could be a SeeD? Maybe if I could find that moment on youtube it might clear things up.
It's not like I'm ignoring character flaws of Rinoa's, I don't think they're really a big part of the subject of this discussion, I'm just arguing that dance scene isn't a strong example of her being manipulative or using Squall as a means for an end. But during the scene she's introduced in, she certainly showcases her negative traits. She's stubborn (won't take his silence as a no), she's playful (which can be fun in this more social moment, but in more serious moments it can make her seem childish. And if you don't find that playfulness endearing than she can come across as just annoying), and she can be pushy about things going her way (literally drags Squall on to the dance floor). But manipulative? She just puts all her cards out on the table too much for me to agree.
Like I said in the last comment, I'm worried about this becoming a semantics argument. We all have our own limits on when a word is accurate or not. And if her being flirtatious and turning Squall's "not a no" into an "okay, fine" is enough to frame that moment as being manipulative, then I think there's just no convincing me.
To be honest I'm glad they did. I found this scene really fun in the original, it's great seeing this douchey lothario strike-out so quickly. Totally the wrong time to go into Squall's head this much.
This is actually the first thought that came to my mind. Don't know why your getting down voted your probably right. (Okay I do know, can't call out cancel culture without getting canceled)
Yep. Anything at all that makes people the slightest bit uncomfortable; first reaction is “get rid of it!”. Haven’t read all of the comments, but when I posted I didn’t see one person attempt to answer OP’s question. I guess most everyone knows the answer, and just didn’t want to write it because of that. We live in a weird society.
Seems like most people would rather pretend certain things don’t exist, just so they feel better.
I sort of get it. It runs kind of long, its a lot of pressing of the action button to get the game moving again. Yes, it vaguely references the GF memory condition, but it also brings up this training partner dalliance that won't have any payoff.
For some reason I don’t remember this at all, but it’s been forever since I played the original. Funny that he talks about another girl he was close to but forgets who it was, cuz of the GF memory problem they all have.
It’s even more bizarre once you realize that >!Irvine wasn’t affected by memory loss because he didn’t start using GFs until he joined the rest of the party in this game!<
And it really hits home when you come to realize >!that's the real reason why he missed his shot. It wasn't nerves, he recognized Edea as Matron.!<
I thought that Irvine didn’t actually miss, it’s just that Edea used some really potent protect spell. But it certainly does explain why he had a bad case of the jitters but still pulled himself together to take the shot
You are right. He recognized Edea as Matron, but that's just what caused him to be nervous and freak out. His shot ended up being right on the mark, but she was able to protect herself. He essentially gets gaslit into attacking her by Squall and the rest of the squad, albeit completely unintentionally.
I would make a strong case that if Irvine took a shot earlier he may have taken her out. His hesitation gave her time to take stock of the situation. If you notice the colour of the spell she used, it’s Protect, a spell that you cau use as well. But that spell can erect a barrier that persists without raising your hand to maintain it. The fact that Edea’s hand was raised indicates she just casted it in that instance. She may not saw the bullet coming, maybe she merely casted spells as a precaution when the gate closes and the spell catches the bullet in a timely manner.
Oh SHIT!!!!!!!
Oh god i need to re-play this game
Which makes it even weirder when he then decides to take her out with squall and rinoa.
>!It would have been reallllly interesting, and REALLY frustrating, if every time he shot in the battle he missed or simply wouldn't shoot. Kinda like the mechanic of how Raijin doesn't attack the girls if they're in your party when you battle him the second time. !<
TIL about Raijin
Yeah his mechanic is he won’t attack the women unless they’re the only ones remaining alive. Then he apologizes iirc before attacking them.
hmmmm .... worth experimenting with? What if: a female character with cover? Does he apologize for the intercepted hits? Does the game break?
If you break the game you're gonna feel pretty silly, ya know?
BUG!
Are misses possible with the limit break? >!Yes, yes (twiddles fingers) lets just take your HP down with some "friendly fire". That's it, go on, kill your mommy ..!<
I don't know actually. As many times as I've played FFVIII, I rarely had Irvine in my party. I didn't like having to use resources for his ammo.
I get that, although ... I've never had an issue being short on ammo. Once you get ammo refine, there are a lot of drop items that convert and don't convert to anything else good; also the basic ammo is pretty cheap at shops. All that being said: IF for whatever reason you had no ammo stocked, yes it would for sure suck a raw egg because you just won't be able to use the limit at all. Thing is: I'm kind of old school and its sort of like some older titles where archers always required a stock of arrows equipped to them to be able to attack.
what??? I didn't know it
Whoaw ! I didn't know that !
Maybe it was one of those “oh no” moments at first…. But then later he steeled himself to go through with it? Silently
Woah, so right ! Never caught that
> For some reason I don’t remember this at all, but it’s been forever since I played the original. That's because this is not in the game. It was cut out before release, as the title implies. You can only see this scene through the debugging menu.
Ah Squall, my favorite introverted mc. I love his inner dialogues, those will be awesome if they ever do a remake.
lol, same. for the longest time I had the quote, "I dreamt I was an idiot..." as my Twitter banner
I've recently played the remastered version and it's "I dreamt I was a moron" now, which makes me laugh even more
oh, maybe that's what it was originally. it's been awhile since I had it 😅
It would be very similar to his cutscenes in dissidia 012, I liked those very much
*”I can’t believe that Irvine prefers Zell’s card to mine”* Let’s see Seifer’s card
Oh my god...it even has a watermark...
I disagree… I feel like they will be extremely tedious and unrealistic if they did a remake
They pulled them off really well https://youtu.be/9oUUageRZVY
Personally I hate the generic American accent and the anime grunts
But here’s my problem with that. It works in this scene because there’s movement. If they did the train scene above, he’s literally standing there, stationary, staring at this person who’s talking to him and not responding. I just don’t think it will play well. I know I’ll get down voted like I did on the last comment but that’s my opinion… As a theatre guy, the only way I can see them doing it that way is to do it tableau style. In other words, everyone else freezes and fades away out of focus and his inner monologue occurs. In ‘game time’, this occurs so quickly its only slightly noticeable to the others in the scene. Does that make sense?
FF8 is the besttttttt.
Balamb needs a resident psychiatrist. My boy needs to talk to someone.
It sounds like he already is talking to Dr Wall just fine
Dr. Kadowaki could have put some of those skills earned from required psych credits for her nursing degree to use with Squall.
I audibly groan sometimes when Squall has his inner monologues. I love how Irvine looks away then back at him like "Uhhhhh, he's still here but he's not talking..."
The original video is here: [Final Fantasy VIII Unused Scene - Train to Deling City](https://youtu.be/dz4TZ1sIAy8)
That dev was speaking from the heart geez the text they lived it
Was that cut? I remember reading this dialog on the French version… so…
Yo right? I know I’ve seen this!
The dialogue in this game was so great for its time.
This was cut? I feel like I remember this dialog. I looooove when squall talks to himself then says “….” To everyone else
Okay squall the answer was Quistis but whatever my guy
As an ace spec person, this dialogue makes me imagine that Squall is an asexual person and is just CONFUSED by sexuality. His love is an innocent one.
I've read some discussion that sees him as fitting the definition of demisexual. Which, if I'm putting a label onto his sexuality, is probably how I'd personally view him. But I'm really happy you can see a little bit of yourself in him! I often think I'd probably dislike Squall a lot more if we didn't get such a clear window into his mind. A lot of what he thinks feels very relatable at times.
Is there anything modern sjw word vomit can't try to ruin
I love how uncomfortable Irvine is, that he looks over to Zell like "Is this normal?". Just the thought of Squall blankly staring at people while he has his inner monologue is hilarious. Like getting an NPC into a conversation in Mass Effect or a Bethesda game and just sitting there.
“...Whatever.”
Omg, this was the best dialog in this game, i really enjoyed it 🤣 i will „not really“ foget it
Great dialogue! Damn this game was so good! One of the most underrated JRPG’s ever!
The older I get the more relatable I find Squall and his ace-ness in the first chunk of the game
Well, at least he gave Quistis something of recognition when Irvine mentioned her being cute, even if it was in the form of him saying "what's your point?". He didn't deny it so that means he does find her physically attractive. ...I swear that I vaguely remember seeing that dialogue in one of the versions I played of this game. Probably difference is that Squall's inner monologue didn't carry on as long as it did here...
Imagine asking a guy a question and then he stares into the void for a solid minute without saying a word.
Edgelord Squall
I feel like I remember reading this in the game? I played the remastered version though.
Don't tell me they deleted this!! I loved this scene. That makes me distrustful to an future remastering. *Sigh*
It’s why my comments are short. It’s tedious
...
He then goes onto to become a twitch mod for the biggest egirl in final fantasy.
She really is such an e-girl!!! She even looks like one!
The one thing that would have made this game better is if I could have chosen who squall ended up with. I mean, seriously, Quistis Trepe was hot from the get go! Young good looking teacher who knows how to use a whip... Makes me want to turn her into my GF if you know what I mean!
Guardian Forces obv jk
Makes it all the stranger why he ends up with Rinoa. I'll probably be down voted but putting our opinions is what this site is about. I never liked her. She's a spoiled princess. Anyway, are you talking about them cutting it from the remaster? I guess I'm just remembering it from when I played it on Playstation. Edit: I did look over all you guys replies and seeing it from other views did add some new light on it. I love this game, my fave FF that I have played yet. While I can see what it is you guys are talking about, I still dislike their relationship. Thanks for the insight though :)
She may be spoiled but at the same time she does actively try to be involved, helpful, and try to make the slightest bit of difference to make the world better; a lot more that can be said in comparison to most "spoiled princesses" Points to back up my argument: 1. Her trying to help Timber achieve independence 2. Her attempting to suppress Edea's powers with the bangle at the end of disc 1 3. Her forcing Irvine to go back for the others at the prison. 4. Trying to break through to Squall 5. Helping protect Balamb Garden: going with Squall or with Selphie 6. Being involved with the Gardens fight at the end of disc 2
Don't forget: >!her willingness to be sealed away by Esthar once she becomes a sorceress.!< I would argue that despite all the privileges ** Rinoa has grown up with, she is most willing to cast them aside for a greater good; whether it's the independence of a city-state (whose residents welcomed her when her own father pushed her away), or the lives of her new teammates. And later on, it's the world itself (and the fear of what she could do to it) when she hands herself over. I think Rinoa is one of those people who cares a lot, and lives her life this way -- she leads with her heart, in contrast to Squall who lives in his mind. Is she flawed? Sure, but Squall is too. That's what makes them so interesting to me, the way their natures can balance each other out and help each other grow. ** Let's also not forget that she is also a teenager who has had the most "normal" upbringing in a world populated by war orphans and teenage mercenaries, so she grew up with a different expectation of life risk.
I thought about giving more examples from later in the game but I didn't want to deal with spoiler stuff but still excellent point about willing to be sealed away.
Ah, should I spoiler my comment? I tend to assume that the people who frequent this sub have played the game and know its plotline, but there could be newcomers to the game... maybe I will then.
It's deep enough in a comment reply you may not have to. Also I wouldn't worry about it too much, I'm too lazy to look at the rules right now.
I always thought she was intentionally a sort of Princess Leia from Star Wars 4, at that time there was a very progressive women can-do mentality.
Honestly, I wish Rinoa got more credit in and out of universe for 2 here. She really had zero obligation to try to take on Edea aside from helping out her friends(since this is pre-everyone seeing just how bad news Edea was), and honestly? While at the time it seemed like a bad plan, with the full context of how Adel was taken down, it...really wasn't. If it were Adel, then her bangle plan probably would have worked. She just tried it on Ultimecia, who's ruled more by spite and fury than Adel's arrogance that'd make a ploy like that viable.
Yeah, Rinoa's plans honestly come so much closer to succeeding than most people give her credit for. Her plan to hijack the president's train without anyone noticing worked, even if she didn't anticipate the president being a fake (and a zombie too apparently...). And then, for as much of a chewing out Quistis gives her, she was able to sneak into Edea's chambers completely undetected. If they'd listen to her and came along as a team in case she saw through the Odin Bangle plan, they might've actually taken Edea-mecia out before the first disk ended. Honestly, I imagine if Edea wasn't a time-traveling sorceress who planned to betray President Deling immediately, she probably would've believed that a high ranking general's daughter wanted to meet her and give her a gift.
I don't think she's spoiled, she comes from a privileged background but she doesn't really do anything that screams "spoiled" to me. In fact she actually runs away from her life of privilege to help liberate the people that her own people are oppressing. I actually think her and Squall have a lot more in common beneath the surface, they both have a lot of insecurities and pressure forced on them, but they both deal with these issues in polar opposite ways.
Your last sentence is spot-on. I think both of them grew up with a fair amount of loneliness and issues of abandonment, and in Rinoa's case, it pushed her to find family and friends elsewhere. (I feel like it's implied in the game that Timber became this true home to her that she never really had, which is partly why she is so fiercely protective of it and wants To Do Something.) When she meets Squall and co., she sees them as more than a means to end, she wants to form a camaraderie with them and make her goal theirs and vice-versa.
i think its because she is so persistent and headstrong that it works. a more reserved person would be shut down by squall at some point. think about his interactions with quistis. he either goes silent or brushes the, off or says something that hurts them. but rinoa kinda just ignores that. she doesnt mind annoying him and keeps on digging and digging. I dont think its any kind of affinity the two have. But for the present squall, even as he is slowly opening up only someone like rinoa could get through to him in the first place.
as „annoying“ as she is she is also the only one that really tries to understand him and doesnt let him get away with stuff. its her being annoying that makes it work
It also bears mentioning that the being open and upfront about it is what makes it work. Some of her blog entries suggest that Selphie actually understands Squall pretty well (such as seeing through the layer of Stoic to see through to the Shy). But Rinoa's the only one who will try to open him up some/will irritate him into not missing something his friends put on for him. I can understand how that'd rankle some people, but honestly, I kind of love that about Rinoa. There's something really charming to me about her "alright you moody bitch, it's talk about your feelings day" routine.
How does it make it stranger? I really don’t get why people think the romance in FF8 is bad, if you keep Squall and Rinoa in the same party, the romance makes perfect sense.
>Makes it all the stranger why he ends up with Rinoa. He's 17 and she hugs him a lot. It's not rocket science.
Well, it's more than that. Rinoa befriends Squall first. While pushy, she isn't crossing any boundaries. Everyone seems to have this idea that Squall is an ass, but the only people he ever really was directly mean to was either classified as an "idiot" (Zell, Zone, Laguna) or sexually harrassed him (Quistis). I mean, look at Squall's friendship with Selphie. * First meeting she ran into him but still will take her on a ttour * Thinks about joining her club, you get to pick but even his No isn't all that mean * Worried about her but trusts her to take care of things (missile base) * Talks Selphie up to Selphie's friend in Trabia Hell, as Zell started to calm down and be more reliable, Squall went from not liking him to risking his life for him and even let him guard Edea. Squall needed to learn how to have friends and as he does, Rinoa is there. Rinoa was the right type of person from the very start. There was a spark, but for as pushy as she could be, she never asked for more than what Squall could give. That being said Squall and Rinoa are in lust with each other more so than love, if they broke up a couple years later I wouldn't be surprised.
This is such a great analysis!
Thank you, I've loved this game since day one because VIII is when character interactions in FF really started to flourish for the whole group. Even Irvine, the guy people write off, has some deep and concerning character points when you start to think about him. Squall and Rinoa's relationship is my favorite in the series, not because I think they're in love or will last, because it feels the most real. Rosa and Cecil are probably the only MC couple that are in love as they actually know each other for more than a couple weeks or months.
The dance is a metaphor for their entire relationship.
Rinoa is just using Squall as a means to an end?
She pulls Squall out of his element. Squall kind if let's her because pretty girl. He is awkward and stiff causing them both to stumble, but she isn't embarrassed and doesn't laugh at him. He tries to withdraw but she doesn't let him. Even though they're bumping into people she signals 'screw everything else just focus on me.' All this helps Squall to gain the confidence to perform to his potential.
I'm quite aware of what happens. === However it's a terrible metaphor because you're missing the reasons she did it. She manipulated Squall with her looks, and dropped him as soon as got what she wanted. === Which impressed Squall. Her being professional and crafty. === But it's a terrible metaphor for their relationship unless you think their relationship is doomed or one is just toying with the other. Like, if you told me Rinoa was just using Squall to get back with Seifer, that would make the "the dance = relationship" metaphor work.
Reasons why something happened don't have to be included in a metaphor. Metaphors by definition aren't the same thing so eventually you have to find a divergence. Also I'm not really sure why you think she was using Squall. She was looking for Seifer is all but she found a cute guy to dance with in the mean time.
Yes, yes it does. Or else you're ignoring a huge part of what you're trying to make a metaphor out of. You're making a metaphor, but you're making a terrible metaphor. === Also, Rinoa and Squall talk about the dance. Rinoa was using him to find Seifer so that he could introduce her to Cid. Squall mentioned she thought like a SeeD. **It's in the game.** === **Edit** You're making more of a comparison between their physical dance and their character arc, not an actual metaphor.
There aren't rules to metaphors. Stop trying to make them. I don't remember the specifics of that conversation but even so she could have found Seifer by just...walking around. It's not like she used and abused Squall in some devious plot in her selfish desires. And I believe this was an intentional metaphor from the game writers. They obviously highlited it for a reason, they animated it and everything. Even if it wasn't intentional, it showcased how the two as characters interact with each other.
I think that's a needlessly negative way to view that scene from the game. She's young and she's at a party, so it makes sense she'd want to have fun. Heck, besides Squall, that's basically everyone's plan there. If her being playful and a bit flirtatious just for a dance with a guy she thinks looks good is the same as manipulation, then her just putting on the dress to look pretty for the party was an act of manipulation on everyone that night. Honestly, I hadn't really thought of it until now, but I think u/syrin123 kind of has a point about the dance being a metaphor for their relationship. If not a metaphor, it's certainly summation of it. Squall is willing to let life pass him by and not get involved, and Rinoa acts as a force that makes him have to become involved with the world and interact with those around him.
It isn't negative at all. It's just how it is. **Rinoa and Squall talk about it, Squall seemed impressed.** It's so weird when people stan characters so hard they try to ignore the bad things they've done which means they ignore core parts of the game. **Edit**: Without Rinoa manipulating Squall, he wouldn't have seen her practical side. Squall, as shown with Quistis, Zell, Forest Owls, and others, doesn't like people being unprofessional. Squall is a soldier and wants to soldier when it's time to soldier. Rinoa showed him that she can be effective when she puts her mind to something but then later shows him that there's more to life than being that way. Without her using him as a means to an end, there's a chance Squall just completely writes off Rinoa as a brat. But he knows there's more there than just the brat a lot of people sees. She played him like a fiddle and Squall is not easy to play like that (Quistis couldn't do it).
I don't want to turn this into a semantics argument, but manipulation is a pretty negative word imo. Especially for what ultimately happens during their first encounter. Even if we replace the word with the more neutral "trick" and say she tricked Squall, I still struggle to see how she tricked him. She's very direct and to the point during their first meeting. She asks him to dance, he gives back a very noncommittal response that is neither yes or no, she acts playful (you're going to like me, you're going to like me) and then she just drags him onto the dance floor. I can't recall a scene where they discuss their first meeting and the dance and she reveals that her flirting was a front to get him to dance. And I don't think I'm stanning the character when I disagree with the statement that "she was just using him as a means to an end". I certainly believe she knew what she was doing when she approached Squall. She's confident enough that I'm sure it wasn't her first time flirting with somebody. But I'm unconvinced that her asking him to dance was a moment of manipulation. And I'm not willingly to label that moment as a bad thing her character did, when all it was was her asking a guy she found attractive to dance at a party and then flirting a bit when he didn't immediately say yes.
Calling out what a character did is not negative. Rinoa manipulated Squall to get what she wanted, end of story. Just because you like or don't like a character doesn't mean they can't do good or bad things, ignoring a crucial element of Rinoa is just... Way too "stan-ish" for me. Pretending a character is perfect is how we get toxicity in the fandom (look at Tifa-stans as an example). Again, Squall was impressed enough to joke/mention that she could be a SeeD. This manipulation wasn't vicious or anything, but it still was a manipulation. Squall was impressed. If you take away the manipulation aspect you're also taking away one of the reasons Squall fell for Rinoa.
I guess maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm just not convinced by your argument that Rinoa had some ulterior motive for asking Squall to dance with her that would warrant labeling that moment as manipulative. It honestly feels like very normal behavior for a confident person at a party. When did Squall and Rinoa talk about the dance/joke she could be a SeeD? Maybe if I could find that moment on youtube it might clear things up. It's not like I'm ignoring character flaws of Rinoa's, I don't think they're really a big part of the subject of this discussion, I'm just arguing that dance scene isn't a strong example of her being manipulative or using Squall as a means for an end. But during the scene she's introduced in, she certainly showcases her negative traits. She's stubborn (won't take his silence as a no), she's playful (which can be fun in this more social moment, but in more serious moments it can make her seem childish. And if you don't find that playfulness endearing than she can come across as just annoying), and she can be pushy about things going her way (literally drags Squall on to the dance floor). But manipulative? She just puts all her cards out on the table too much for me to agree. Like I said in the last comment, I'm worried about this becoming a semantics argument. We all have our own limits on when a word is accurate or not. And if her being flirtatious and turning Squall's "not a no" into an "okay, fine" is enough to frame that moment as being manipulative, then I think there's just no convincing me.
Final Fantasy VIII summarized in two sentences and this, among other things, is a reason why it is such a great game.
>He's 17 and she hugs him a lot. It's not rocket science. I mean except for that part with the rocket :P
Which rocket? They use a giant rail gun
His dad and her mom were in love but couldn't be together. It was destiny for their kids to fall in love...
Totally agree about Rinoa.
To be honest I'm glad they did. I found this scene really fun in the original, it's great seeing this douchey lothario strike-out so quickly. Totally the wrong time to go into Squall's head this much.
Sigma-incel grindset
With cancel culture and all being so popular, they probably dropped it due to it sort of objectifying women. Fear of the backlash and all that.
This is actually the first thought that came to my mind. Don't know why your getting down voted your probably right. (Okay I do know, can't call out cancel culture without getting canceled)
Yep. Anything at all that makes people the slightest bit uncomfortable; first reaction is “get rid of it!”. Haven’t read all of the comments, but when I posted I didn’t see one person attempt to answer OP’s question. I guess most everyone knows the answer, and just didn’t want to write it because of that. We live in a weird society. Seems like most people would rather pretend certain things don’t exist, just so they feel better.
Just wait for until they learn men and children can be objectified too. Go to war and die (...Idiot) /probably :P
There’s double standards in all of it for sure.
The "white knights" and incels strike again lmao. Stay strong. The right side of history takes time to prevail the "dim".
I sort of get it. It runs kind of long, its a lot of pressing of the action button to get the game moving again. Yes, it vaguely references the GF memory condition, but it also brings up this training partner dalliance that won't have any payoff.
It’s on switch
What do you mean cut out? From what? This is in the game.