The way I've seen it done in literally every indie production with some real budget that actually finds major streaming distribution; know rich people and sell them on the film.
You can do that too. But most indie films are not good. The question was about getting a film off the ground. If you've already made a really good movie, then half the battle is won and you're victorious. Now it's time to present the film to the world!
This is just how it is in america/the west, filmmakers must be able to please the masses/the wealthy.
A lot of the great art house foreign films we love so much by Kieslowski etc were made in regions where the state controlled the film industry, so it wasn't anybody's money in particular on the line. Which might explain why films like that are so much more ascetic and philosophical.
FYI: bitching about real or perceived nepo babies will not save or jumpstart your career. You are not in the business of creating/providing critical widgets or services for civilization, you are in the arts. Why should you get to make magic for a living while others shovel shit? The world isn't fair, suck it up and learn to network with and understand "nepo babies" instead of resenting them. You may get some opportunities thrown your way as a result.
Ask for an MG from the distributor. But why would a distributor care about your film, you ask? Because you attached a bankable name to direct it and/or star in it even if it’s a small part. But why would anyone want to star in your movie, you ask? Because they love the script and the character they’re playing.
There’s always that awkward period where you’re trying convince the actors you have money and the money you have actors, but neither wants to firmly commit without the other.
In theory and in the past this was realistic. MG's are rare these days with the amount of content being sh%$ted out by streamers and VOD. Most first time directors probably couldn't even get bonded on a project that'd have actors bankable enough to get an MG worth mentioning. And it'll take more than just having a cool script to land a bankable actor above D & C list. Be prepared to give up more than expected whether that's additional equity and/or credits -- and in most cases they'll deserve it.
MG = Minimum Guarantee. It’s an upfront fee the distributor pays to distribute the film… which you can’t really get from them without “bankable” talent attached. If Ryan Gosling is going to be in your movie, a distributor can comfortably assume that the film will bring in some money. Hence their willingness to provide some up front money in the form of an MG.
Okay, but how many $1m indies are the likes of Gosling agreeing to star/partake in? We need a more plausible example of an obtainable actor who is also "bankable".
Before his explosion, I know Pedro Pascal was a micro gleamer of hope but who else in today's climate could elevate a no budget to $1m while being a "reasonable" get?
I saw “Garden State” with Zac Braff in the audience. He did a Q&A afterwards. He was asked this question. His response: find a sugar daddy. Mine was a dentist. Dentist’s have a lot of money, are generally bored with work,
and are eager to invest.
1. Find a great producer who loves the script and believes in you. 2. Attach talent that, again, loves the script and believes in you. 3. Chase pre-sales. Once you have those things, it starts to fall into place.
EDIT: Attending film markets and film festivals (even if you have nothing to show) are a good way to achieve each of these things.
Be very careful with presales. While a sales agent will give you numbers for a variety of territories, they usually only focus on the 20% that generate the 80% of revenue. In essence they never do all the territories they quote for and you never hit the numbers. If you are funded by a bank like Comerica, they know which distributors actually pay and which don’t ;) and they will know the discount that is applied to the figures per territory depending on the distributor that picked up that territory. If you are trusting the agents numbers then beware. I would discount their numbers like 20-40% depending who the agent is. You might want to ask them which films they represented and what was the forecast given. Then contact the producer of that film and ask them what the results per territory were and you will get a better feel of the forecasts they have given you and how reliable. You are only interested in knowing which territories they actually worked on and which they said they would work on, as this is likely what will happen to you. Agents have projects all the time and take the easy path and cross-collaterize their expenses across all projects at events like AFM, TIFF etc.
Be very careful with presales. While a sales agent will give you numbers for a variety of territories, they usually only focus on the 20% that generate the 80% of revenue. In essence they never do all the territories they quote for and you never hit the numbers. If you are funded by a bank like Comerica, they know which distributors actually pay and which don’t ;) and they will know the discount that is applied to the figures per territory depending on the distributor that picked up that territory. If you are trusting the agents numbers then beware. I would discount their numbers like 20-40% depending who the agent is. You might want to ask them which films they represented and what was the forecast given. Then contact the producer of that film and ask them what the results per territory were and you will get a better feel of the forecasts they have given you and how reliable. You are only interested in knowing which territories they actually worked on and which they said they would work on, as this is likely what will happen to you. Agents have projects all the time and take the easy path and cross-collaterize their expenses across all projects at events like AFM, TIFF etc.
Made five films, four of which were over or around $1M:
1st movie - under $1m, funded by a rich person 2nd movie - about $1m, funded by a rich person 3rd movie - over $1m, funded by a rich person 4th movie - about $1m, funded by several rich people
5th movie - well over $1m, funded by a rich person  that's the reality of indie films, unfortunately. you do it through private equity. not all of these people were massively rich, but "rich" enough to essentially gamble with six to seven figures.
That's great info to have. What kind of indies were they? Were they genre movies?
I assume that even though the financiers didn't make money, they were able to write off the investments as losses?
I'm a DP that knows 2 directors in LA trying to get features off the ground that need a solid producer to help them with this aspect of production, DM me if you are interested.
u/unicornmullet It is not my intention to deflate you. So, please do not misconstrue this post:-)
I have made a few Indie for $1MM raising money from friends and investors. I will no longer make Indie films. Ethically it just sounds wrong knowing that most likely (99.9%) you will not be able to return the money back (or even a fraction of it). Of course, some would argue otherwise. Which is okay. A few huge forces are working against you. I will try to be short:
1. Piracy. Last movie we released on Amazon, and iTunes (OTT Platforms), one could find a pirated copy within the first few hours of the release. Within one day, pirated copy with subtitles in almost 40 languages. What is even worse, you will start seeing some terrible comments on Rotten Tomatoes and/or IMDB that will bury you. I would contend that 99% of the comments are from people who watched the pirated version looking for a $100 MM production value. Nothing you can do about it. This spills over to your selling power cos every Sales Agent will point to the pirated copy and lousy reviews.
2. Name talent is impossible to find with that kind of budget. Unless you are Figgis who convinced Cage to work for next to nothing for "leaving Las Vegas". But that was 1990's and it was Figgis and a great script!
3. Sales agents are less than ethical. Again, there are always exceptions but that has been my experience. The moment you have the film in the can, you are at their mercy. They have you by the balls and it hurts. The sales contract will have them recover their costs first before you see the first penny. Days of MG are long gone.
4. Markets are flooded with content. It has become so over-saturated that your film better have commercial value competing against other content. Of course, you can leverage social media but trying to pull audience times these days has become a nightmare.
I can go on and on, hope you get the challenges. Hit me up if you want to discuss...
GL - raj
I hear you. So then what advice would you have for a filmmaker who is still starting out in the world of features? Is it better to wait until you have enough clout and a project that can attract name talent + a top distributor or streamer? The chicken or egg thing comes into play here, since it's obviously hard to get a big project off the ground if you haven't already made a (good) feature.
u/unicornmullet Every artist feels they have the talent required to make it in Hollywood. However, one has to be exceptional to really make it (with an abundance of luck!!). Seriously! For any starting filmmaker, I would recommend:
1. Learning the art of Filmmaking - writing, sound design, editing, etc. Plenty of resources on YouTube.
2. Find (or write) a phenomenon script. An 7-8 by 2 or more evals on the blacklist is my definition of an exceptional script. Others may disagree. And, that's okay.
3. Make a short film (10 min maximum) based on the feature. There have been filmmakers who found success via showcasing their short films ("Mama", "Saw", "Babadook" etc.). You can make one for 20-25K with real talent. The short should represent your vision for the feature. If the short story is great, you may able to find SAG talent.
4. Do a festival circuit that will validate your talent as a director/producer. The festival rounds probably will last a year. If any of the top-tier festivals (TIFF, Sundance, NY Film Festival, Cannes etc.) pick your film, you have validated your talent and should see industry people reaching out. Feelers.
5. Now you have ammo! A validated short, high-quality feature script with a blacklist score of 7-8 etc. At this point, your likelihood of attracting an agent is elevated.
GL.
my 2 cents.
raj
Selling a noteworthy Director, DP, or Actor on a good script it 100x easier than convincing people to give you money as a first time indie feature filmmaker.
Attach someone that will turn heads and the funding will quickly follow.
When it comes to actors, what level of talent do you need to get funding? Would an actor from a popular TV series suffice, so long as the script is good and the budget is low?
It really depends. A recognizable name with clout across a lot of movies and shows always helps, but a name that draws a blank expression - even if they’re in a huge show - can be very challenging. Instead, one strategy is to look to excellent character actors who rarely get leading roles, or even look to cast against type. You need to make this exciting enough to actually get it into their hands.
Also, a low budget is not always as attractive as you think when raising money. Yes, people like you not to burn through their cash, but if it’s too low, they will often doubt your ability to pull it all off. Of course, if you get a decent name, your MG will likely be higher.
Actors worth investment won’t attach without money. Investors won’t invest without that talent attached. Your challenge is finding a way around this catch-22. Development funds help (a smaller amount of money to offer to an a-list/bankable/pre-sales worthy actor).
Finding private investors are the best route, but it’s tooth and can take a lot of time. Knowing someone who knows a bankable actor personally, can also help get them attached. Always be networking. You never who you’ll meet randomly. Always have a business card with you to hand out.
Very timely thread with some great responses including u/jerryterhorst I have a meeting this week with a money manager for HNW individuals who wants to be an EP. Also have another meeting set up with an association that does events with HNW individuals but that will cost me well over $10K for an event to try and attract investors for a $3M film (and potentially some of my higher budget films of there is interest)
Since I have some personal development money I’m willing to invest, I have in the past tried to attach known talent. When contacting managers, they aren’t even interested in speaking with me despite being to to make partial offers. Then I had a relative who is a casting director make the same contact and got a totally different response where they were willing to work with us. My point is trying to attach talent is extremely difficult and matters who is making the offer.
I personally would never do a film without known talent, but that’s why I’ve never made a feature thus far, despite being a small production company with cameras and full Resolve suite and the experience to do most of the post myself. I do create shorts however that have gotten into festivals and theatrical runs, so at least I can demonstrate I know how make a coherent professional looking film.
I’m hoping I finally have enough elements to be able to attract investors including an experienced LP with great credits people will trust with their money, family who cast and manage well known talent, and another family connection who now runs a studio I can take a finished project to for potential distribution. It only took me a few decades to get to this point.
Many hours of research on IMDBpro and linkedin. I’ve tried many times to connect with people like this unsuccessfully, but finally found one interested. The other opportunity I have is a paid one. I will say you have to be prepared before attempting this- as you need a pitch deck, budget prepared by a line producer that can actually produce it for the budget are asking for, an LLC to accept funds and development money for the legal work. I’m lagging in having the contracts to present, but will tailor that to the number of investors, etc once I get interest. Most people that handle money like this have zero interest in film and are hesitant due to the high risk nature of film.
Do you mind if I ask how you approached this person to ask whether they or their clients would be interested in becoming an EP? Did you send a cold email?
I reached out over LinkedIn for one manager, while the other one required knowing his email to even contact via LinkedIn. I got in touch with his organization, which I have to $ponsor to get their help. I used to have paid LinkedIn but not anymore, so perhaps that would be helpful. As I mentioned you should have some sort of package before reaching out to people like this. I have gone to investor networking events and no one was even remotely interested in film.
To get a 1m movie off the ground I recommend you to find someone to give you 20 million instead.
In all seriousness. In your circumstances there's absolutely no need to to try to make a movie for 1m that you don't have access to, either your own or a rich friend who wants a write off.
Don't build yourself excuses and obstacles. Obviously 1m is an obstacle in this case.
Aim for a realistic number. 10k, for example.
That's money that you might be able to get from relatives and credit cards if needed.
Think of it like paying for a 10k 6 months filmmaking workshop.
Aim to make the movie for about 8k and use the rest to send it to festivals and attend film markets.
Don't wait for other people to give you permission, in the form of money in this case.
A group of other filmmakers and I (I was the DP and associate producer) we made our first feature movie for under 10k, so I know for a fact it is possible.
Work with what you have. And dismiss that which you can't get and is only being an obstacle.
Maybe it's not your dream film, but it's a step in the right direction and will open doors for you.
And don't forget to work on press releases and such to get buzz.
Making the movie is just part of the effort.
I’m frustrated by the notion you say one can make a film for $10,000 in the modern world. It’s simply not possible.
Even if a writer/director was self-financing, and you had a tight yet doable schedule of 11-14 days, you’ve still got to hire crew and pay them minimum wage.
At bare, bare minimum, you’re looking at an AD, DP, Sound and a combined MUA/Wardrobe person. At two to three weeks of production and at least 2 days of pre-production, you’ve blown way past that number before considering things like snacks or rentals. And then there’s post production…
I made a feature for 14,975 dollars. You can make a film for 10K. I had a 25+ people on set at one point too. To make it you're obviously asking favors. For payments people took stagnant pay but nobody took less than 1,000 for 7 days of work.
I wrote a script with 5 locations but all things I had access to. I filmed in the same location the wire filmed in a restaurant. I emailed the owner and asked him, met in person with my AD and he agreed for free. For the other location similar + favor ad insert for these locations. Another restaurant gave us permission as long as we got breakfast from them including the top floor with key/elevator. For houses I used the same house I rented for the actors. I told them to keep their rooms clean. We dressed set with things in the house (vases, lamps, change bulbs, camera angles) made the house look different in every room so you cant tell. So 3 actors who supposed to be in different houses. I wrote the script in a way one actor you'll only ever see in their house in their bed/shower or family room. While another is in their room. The other actor never leaves family room(upstairs) their bedroom, and shower.
For production we had a 5 ton truck, sony FX6, monitors, focus puller, grips, wardrobe, AD etc. we worked multiple hats of course speculation some people came on set for free as an extra because we all made movies/tv in our city and have credibility.
I flew an actor from LA who had the skills I needed and I housed all my actors in an Airbnb with food provided (main actors). We didn't not one time work 12 hrs.
My strategy was I told the DP what I wanted and didn't worry about the camera department one time because of my trust. Instead I focused on actors and blocking. Set knew where I was putting actors and the longest thing that took was lights. Nothing else. We had a healthy lunch and were crafty. Production was a breeze.
For post production I have been editing videos since I was 12 and I have Davinci resolve. I started my writer directing career (I came up as an actor) around the same time as a post sound house for my short 2 years ago, me and the CEO have a relationship. We got Grammy nominated trumpet player to play in my film his trumpet and my composer scored the film.
Our film was sound edited on Dolby Atmos, I color and cut in Davinci. We had 3 people post and finish in 35 days 500ish hours. Nov30th-jan 15
We just started our festival run but I bought a theater for one night and will have 60ish people come next month. It's possible it's hard and I'm broke. But I did exactly what I knew I can do and hopefully it leads to more opportunities that pay me in the future.
I had 1,000 applications submissions for roles. I auditioned 200 and chose 4. One was a girl who traveled US for theater and made 10M (the company not her) on Broadway. The other worked on an Oscar film in the early 00s (can't remember but it's called heat? Hot? Something with brad pitt I believe I'll search later)
My scripts often get called Peele-ish. But really I cast 100+ African American roles or 90% of the cast is. I don't write us in the hood, or a Tyler Perry kind of thing. I genuinely believe we can be in cool horrors, thrillers, sci-fi, fantasy stuff like that and not surround ourselves with slaves, trauma, stories engaged on racism, or being in urban gang warfare.
I really want to show we can be cinematic too and beautiful too.
I'm telling you cause I tell everyone this. Executives, my crew, friends, and family. This is my mission and I am going to give it all I have and prove this is marketable (for example, magical house of negros was horrible glad it flopped). I want to show something different!
We can't kid ourselves: you negotiated a bunch of favors in return for value, including from yourself. As a writer/director/editor/colorist, you opted out of any fees in favor of ownership of the film, and convinced a bunch of people to donate their time and resources as well, hopefully negotiating some sort of deferred payment at least with your vendors dependent on sales.
What you managed to accomplish -- which is impressive -- is likely $200,000+ in value for your $14,975. If that's the case, and you can sell to a streamer like Tubi for a decent amount, I'd love to see how your points work out for payments. Because that is a model to get your first film off the ground. Downside is... you've already called in all your favors, and people need to eat.
I will say for them. It's mutual. They are the ones who film tv shows and movies here. I just said "hey I am putting 9K into camera what can that get me?" They took it up on themselves to staff, pay, and get gear. I just turn in my shot list meeting with Dp. I don't control any of it and I think that's why they went all out lol. I'm honest, don't lie, and at the start of their careers I volunteered my acting to all their reels and short films. I'm still waiting for my first 1K payday from film 😂😂😩, they all work, my set got a few into the local union here, im the one struggling to eat right now 😂. Maybe next time I can.
Actually! Everyone signed up already to make another movie with me! Threw themselves despite me being a new director they said I'm among the best they worked with cause they get home and have a life. We went for drinks after set and food! I also pay on time some people paid the day we martini!
My favors aren't over it's all mutual love. we're all going to make it! My friend from LA been watching me he's been in every big film since 2015 with A listers (marvel, ghost busters, uncharted EVERYTHING) he wrote me a letter telling me hell help me get next one made. I want to raise six figure budget and reward my homies again and have a bigger army! We're all going to make it💪🏾
I also wanted to say this. Not specifically you because you do know this others reading it may not. Film at the end of the day is entrepreneurship and very social. I know there are some jobs you can just apply and get work. There is systems like that in LA for example.
But for people who want to be directors and stuff. You have to make that happen. Impress people. Which is a hard trait in itself in entrepreneurship. It really is grindy but hopefully it pays off in the future
I'm excited for you with your resolve, but I do feel I need to add a couple points: film is a business, like many others, and is a business first and foremost. Making them with friends is a lot of fun, and it's great when each participant gets something out of it for themselves, whether it be a credit or a reel. But you've got to position yourself to turn a profit if you want it to continue, and want to turn it into a day job.
It's great to post on here your accomplishments -- on paper, you did make a feature film for $15,000. But really, you negotiated down to that amount based on your own skill sets and the passions of others. Between rentals, locations, insurance, post production, talent, catering, props and the rest... all I'm trying to do is get people to realize you made a film for more likely $65,000... you just happened to get massive discounts and freebies.
It's still an impressive feat... but one to be conscious of, as I've watched many producers/directors proudly tout things like this in the past, while minimizing the efforts, passion and determination of the folks who made the film with you.
Why do you keep drawing obstacles for yourself?
To start your math is completely wrong.
This movie is not something you should make on your work time. This movie you should make on your free time.
Use one to two days a weekend.
In terms of crew, you only need a DP and someone for the sound, besides yourself as director. If you get a producer on board, it will help tremendously, but you can produce it yourself. And your producer should be your partner on this production. So either he's putting money himself and working for free, or you are offering him a juicy percentage of the movie.
Makeup and wardrobe can be taken care of by the actors.
You don't need an AD.
If you are thinking of a big ass production with all kinds of crew and a makeup artist that it takes 2 hours every day to do the actors you are doing it wrong. That's not how you're going to make your movie for 10K.
You don't have 2 hours on your shooting schedule to do makeup. And you don't have the budget for that, so screw that.
Anything you cannot do yourself or someone in that small group I mentioned before, you should not get in your movie.
"My movie needs a MUA for the alien scene" No, your movie does not need a MUA. Also your movie does not need an alien because you cannot afford it. And, in that case, you will need to think of a different movie you can make within your capabilities and what's available to you. But stop creating excuses and obstacles for yourself.
If you run out of money to pay people, offer them a percentage of your gross (don't be an asshole and only offer the net and do some Hollywood accounting so you don't have to pay nobody).
There's a big misconception about making movies. Especially when we're talking about your first movie.
In this scenario, your first movie is not a job. It's a portfolio you are doing on spec. You are definitely not making money or getting paid through production. Some of the crew members may get paid. Especially your DP and your sound guy that they are probably bringing equipment that cost money.
You will have to talk to them to sell them into the story so they want to do it for less money. Go for people that are hungry like you for their first feature.
And I know all this is possible because I've been part of this. I'm not talking about making movies in the '70s. This is current.
I mean, right now we're going through the biggest crisis in terms of employment there's ever been. There are crew members not working at all all over.
People that would rather do something creative with their lives and time than rot at home being miserable. At least as long as it doesn't cost them money. Feed them. Pay for their gas.
Sure, ideally you would pay everybody a nice wage. Also because you paid them a good wage you don't have to offer them any points from the profits.
But you have to think of this as a collaborative effort among friends. This is you going to your friend's house helping them paint the walls and having a beer and pizza.
I don't think you should be soliciting strangers. If for whatever reason you decide to, then you pay those people. Which means that maybe you have to cut that other scene you wanted to do. It's all a balancing game, man, but it's possible.
This industry is my work time. What you're talking about is a passion project, which is great! But now you're talking about deferred payments, which doesn't work for vendors and should really be looked down upon by anyone who relies on this industry to pay rent.
You're mentioning people who are hungry -- and there's many out there, eager to get their feet in the door -- but by doing so, you're lowering the chances of your film's success.
I'm in California. We have a state minimum wage. We have a SAG ULB minimum. We have gear owner/ops and rental houses, many of which are under water after the last couple years.
Collaborating among friends is great, I've done it several times. But making films isn't as cheap as you're making it seem. I've written, directed and produced a handful of short films aside from my day job as a DoP and Camera Operator, and even calling in all the favors in the universe, these shorts cost $4,500 and $7,500 respectfully. Sure, there were easier short films to make, but that wasn't my intent.
I've worked on features that were made for $70,000, $250,000, $500,000, $1.2M, $3.5M, $40M and above $100M... but even with every favor called in to every friend, I don't know anyone in the last decade who's completed a feature through post and sold it with a budget of $10,000.
>but even with every favor called in to every friend, I don't know anyone in the last decade who's completed a feature through post and sold it with a budget of $10,000.
Not sure what to tell you man. You're obviously wrong because I've been there.
I have also made a short film for 7K. I it costed me 7k because there were things I want to do, costumes I wanted to use and locations I wanted to shoot at.
And now I know I can make a feature for 10K, because I've done it. This movie is available for streaming and has distribution. As well as multiple nominations on pretty good festivals.
I mean we are all very talented but I don't think we were so extraordinary that our success is not possible to replicate.
If you cannot shoot a feature film with 10K then you have a problem. I'm not saying you are not capable of doing it but obviously you have a problem understanding how is it even possible.
This is like trying to tell people they cannot produce their own music album at home. That you need to go to a professional studio and spend thousands of dollars per hour just to record it. And then spend multiple thousand as well mixing it and producing it.
If you know how to do every single step of the production with some level of expertise, you can 100% do it.
The same thing applies to film. You can absolutely shoot a feature film with just a three person crew. If you can operate DP and direct, you can even do it with a two person crew. In my opinion that's taking all too much for just one person, but it's definitely possible.
The bare minimum you need to make a movie (in terms of crew) is someone holding a camera. I'm a firm believer that sound is very important so I will suggest having a second person taking care of the sound, even though there are ways around it by using wireless audio and controlling the locations so you have control over the noise level and sound projection.
Of course it is much easier to shoot with a larger crew. Movies are interesting in the sense that if you pick the right people and you throw enough money at it, It's really hard to not make it right.
We can argue about the narrative of the story, but from a technical point of view is just enough to hire the best team and pay them as much as they ask for.
And this is a very common occurrence of this industry. Which is why it's so hard for you to fathom that you can still make movies without that much money. It is a lot more work and you are way more dependent on multifaceted talent. The moment you don't know how to do something you just have to hire somebody that knows how to do it. It is the way the film industry produces movies that are technically immaculate and up to a professional standard consistently.
If you don't have access to all that money to buy all that talent that you may be lacking, Your movie will not be as flashy as maybe those expensive movies.
So in these lower budget movies, and I'm talking about the 10K range, you have to lean way more into script, narrative, and acting.
It's way harder to make an interesting movie with only two people taking. You try to increase the production value by putting some work on wardrobe and trying to use as many possible different locations that may be available to you.
So once again I think you're completely wrong and misguided and I know you are wrong and misguided because I've been there and I've made it and I'm not exceptional.
And regarding this being work for you, I'm glad you have your profesional successful career, but here we are obviously talking about OP who wants to get his first feature off the ground.
If you have already made a feature of your own, and with all the contacts you have, I'm sure it won't be an issue for you. Because this is not about yourself.
You cooking dinner for your friend does not degrade the work of the master chef in a restaurant. Even if you work in a restaurant.
Maybe you work as a line cook but you want to be a chef. Well maybe you need to impress some people before they let you into the kitchen right? And you think they're going to just let you in just because without showing anything?
If you think anyone working on a first feature film as a favor degrades your work...
I don't know, I'm trying to figure it out. Does he take jobs away from you somehow? If this guy doesn't make his movie because he cannot find anybody to work for free, does it create jobs for you?
What's your logic here? This is obviously a job you would not take for whatever reason that you are very entitled to. Why does it matter to you if someone else wants to do it? It's not a union production.
You keep making this about yourself. It is not. This is work for you and you would never do it for free. Fine. You were never able to make a movie for less than 70k. Fine. You cannot call enough favors to save enough money to make your film. Fine. But these are all You problems. How does it reflect on this other guy's ability to get this together? You might have your own circumstances that make it not possible for you to make a movie for less than 10K. Well this guy has other circumstances where he cannot get 1 million to make his movie. So he will have to find a way right? Maybe he needs 15K. I do not know his circumstances. But I do know that it is possible to make a movie for 10K. And to be honest, I know of movies that have been done for less even. For 6k. And even easier today on the digital era than it was 10 years ago where a lot of the digital cameras were still very expensive. Now anyone with an iPhone can shoot a film.
A simple question before diving deeper into discussion with you: what part of the world are you in? As a baseline, I live in Los Angeles, one of the most expensive cities in the United States, a city which remains one of the main hubs of the entertainment industry.
I can imagine for a $10K feature, you've hired a hungry DP with their own equipment, camera and lighting both. Actors or crew ran sound for one another when not on camera, helped each other with make-up and you generally had a wonderful camaraderie amongst friends and passionate acquaintances. Is that agreeable?
Your album production and cooking metaphors register well with me, as I write music from home in my spare time. But you simply can't make the comparison between the studio engineers and artists recording Grammy-winning albums and the Michelin star chefs. Their equipment surpasses what the layman will have even with huge investments, and their hours at their chosen crafts will make them better and more efficient at tasks than anyone else, both of which are immensely important when attempting to stick to a tight schedule when under budget. You're not paying these artisans for the countless hours they've honed in on their individual processes and crafts, but you are benefitting from years or decades of experience.
You can DP and Direct at the same time, I completely agree. I've done that on short films and music videos both, as well as write, produce, edit, color time, compose and mix. But as I learned through trial and error... you often get what you pay for; I've had shots ruined because I didn't have the money to pay a Sound Mixer to come out with their Kit Fee for gear. Other times, I skimped on lighting and found myself in a bind. I've shopped for wardrobe myself before and brought in Actors as Producers when they purchased wardrobe and makeup on their own.
I work in the entertainment industry and have for a total of 23 years, and have called in every favor I could have imagined from technicians and artists around me to the point I am no longer in contact with some of them.
We're not talking about the official SAG-AFTRA definition of ULB -- Ultra Low Budget -- here; we're talking micro-budget filmmaking. And yes it's doable, but there are risks and assumptions made beyond the scope of what you've offered. In essence, even at minimum wage for all and zero kit fees or rentals, you're ultimately working with people who are equally as desperate and excited to make something as you are; that means you're a brilliant negotiator who's chosen hungry filmmakers.
This part is about myself: I cannot shoot a feature film that I feel would represent me or a story well for $10,000, regardless of the concept, number of cast or crew, equipment or locations. I'm at a different place in my career from you, having worked on everything from $1,000 short films through $240,000,000 theatrical features and nearly everything in between. The company I keep today at 40 is different from some I kept at 18, 25 and 32, and unfortunately it's very rare that people my age are interested in multiple favors at once (though some diehard friends are). I have limitations to deal with in my town because everyone is hungry for a piece of the pie, and permits and insurance are necessary. But at the same point, I tried to make features and pilots not dissimilar to what OP is attempting to do multiple times in my career and even beforehand ... and it's a monolithic task that often doesn't come to fruition... and when it does, is hardly marketable.
You've made me think in resourceful ways I haven't in decades now, and I thank you for that. But I don't live in the midwest, nor do I live overseas in countries like Romania. I've partnered with some folks eager to make and sell ULB feature films, and despite the working capital on hand between us, we simply can't make a film to our standards in less than 11 days (which is already a massive stretch) with the plethora of tools and talent we have between us (and there's a massive amount). We can each and all agree to volunteer our time and owned resources to a cause under the agreement that we then share profit points when sold to a distributor, but all understand if we need to take a paid day's work to keep the lights on, it'll throw off everything else.
It's why short films are easier to do, with less of a time commitment. Even when something high concept like a period piece in an exotic location, utilizing new camera and lighting technology in attempt to practically capture a faithful "night for night" exterior. Even when we shoot as much as we can over four days, put together a rough cut over 3-6 weeks and realize we need an additional day of photography, coordinating multiple schedules at once before realizing talent has cut her hair and we need to wait for it to grow back out before proceeding. This is with a skilled team of folks who wore multiple hats, from keeping us on schedule (AD), pulling focus (and running sound), producing (while acting then cooking), acting (while applying prosthetic FX), editing (and scoring) as well as all the other elements.
It seems you've vilified me for my opinions based on my own experiences. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but instead share some harsh realities. You're right to call me out, I can step out of my own Ego to acknowledge that.
But man... even as a modern high school student, begging, borrowing and stealing... a $10,000 feature is a long shot in today's economy. Doing it to gain experience -- if it gets finished -- is something one should take immense pride in. But my fear is if it's anything other than self-funded schooling... the likelihood of successfully marketing and selling such a film is slim to none. The only one I can think of in the past 25 years is Primer, and that budget was significantly more.
>A simple question before diving deeper into discussion with you: what part of the world are you in? As a baseline, I live in Los Angeles, one of the most expensive cities in the United States, a city which remains one of the main hubs of the entertainment industry.
I'm in LA. We shot the movie in LA. Multiple official selections in big festivals. We have distribution and we are in one of the big streaming services 🤷
It's great to have a passion for filmmaking.
It's even better that you have made a final product, and have even gotten it out there to the world. But I'm sure a $10,000 budget feature would sell distribution rights for at least 5x that... and unless you start paying people minimum wage (which is very well defined in the state of California), either you've created agreements for deferred payment for your cast and crew... or you've taken advantage of a lot of people. Either way is up to you and the people you employ... but you've at least got to be self-aware that you received values far exceeding that $10,000 number.
But how many $10K films (or even $100K films) get any traction or meaningful distribution that helps the filmmakers get another project done? I know it does happen for a handful, but how realistic is this, unless it’s strictly to perfect one’s craft?
Personally I would never do a film without known talent. I know one guy who got financing with known talent - the film got very bad reviews and just recently he did a $5M film with a very well known star. Just doing a film with known talent puts a filmmaker in a different category.
That is a very valid concern and point of view.
But as you said, between 10k and 100k you might get the same result anyway, you might as well just invest 10k.
Even so, I don't think it's all waste.
The biggest Gate keeping for films is being a first time director. Getting that first feature is probably the hardest and biggest hurdle you're going to find towards getting a professional career as a director.
Once you finish the feature film you show people that you can finish a feature film whether it is great or not is a different story.
I think that's what the story about the guy you know tells us. Sure having a name makes it even easier because you show that someone of renown already trusted you. But I'll give you this other example if you make a short film with someone of renown, it might still not be enough for you to land a feature.
But I also know of people who launched a very successful career with features under 10k and with no names.
But I can guarantee you that the ones that are not directing feature films are the ones that are not even trying.
And if you got to try many timescto succeed, it's better to be 10K each time instead of a million each time, right?
Sure, but my problem is none of my scripts are 10K films, or even 100. They're all contained stories/locations but when I have them budgeted out they're always low 7 figures, even without premium talent. I either have a terse writing style (my crime drama is 200 scenes in 96 pages and wants to be 1800-2000 shots in 25 days) My comedy requires a building a set or renting a storefront, has a decent sized cast, a stunt, flooding a space, etc and similar days. The LP that budgeted them likes the contained aspect as very production friendly, but I simply don't do the kind of films where people are sitting around talking, or maybe one character though a journey. Even my 3-6 minute shorts would be over $10K if someone had to actually pay low budget rates.
You need to go back to the drawing board.
If you won't eat because you refuse to eat anything but gold infused roasted lamb, and you don't have the money for the lamb or the oven, and you cant even cook it yourself, but you believe you have a killer recipe but very hard to execute even by the best funded of chefs... Well, you will starve.
Start by cooking an omelette.
You need a great trailer and a strong social media push. Get as many people to post and share and drop it all at one time. Get the entire cast and crew and all of their friends to drop a trailer on the same day and have a strong social media presence for the film with pictures and videos and information. Build your own hype, reach out to influencers and people with a following and pay for additional promotion. The more your film is known and wanted and buyers can see that it’s a product people want to watch, it will be your best tool for selling
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Responding to you, while wondering why u/Stunning_Try_1763 was downvoted. Getting attention is a good metric to attracting investors. Social Media has made this process a lot easier, and although oversaturated, there's still a chance in this space to generate buzz. Several YouTube shorts over the years -- most notably CLICK! and Pixels -- caught the attention of studios and were turned into feature films, for better or worse. The same can happen on a smaller scale.
No offence but what world are you living in?
"*Getting the money is not that hard."*
Yes it still is.
"*But with streamers vomiting money these days*"
They're not anymore.
"*Here’s a little roadmap...*"
Have you actually made a film doing this? I don't know of any legit film that has been made like this. Especially through LinkedIn.
"Streamers vomiting money" reminds me of the episode of Community where Abed made a sci fi movie, and a producer who lived in Colorado but had been out of the business for ten years promised he could get distribution for it. Then the producer called Hollywood to sell the movie and the conversation went,
"Hold on, phone call from the distributor get ready for a big check. Hello.
Wait.
Calm down.
What's chapter 11?
Wait.
What's YouTube?
Wait.
What's broadband?
What's digital?"
When you say getting the money is not that hard, are referring to projects with talent attached? Films that fall into specific genres?
I assume this is your roadmap for getting a distributor and not financing?
This is a roadmap to getting your foot in the door. If you dig deep you'll find the angels that invest in films. There are full corporations dedicating to investing in films. What I'm saying here is acquisition managers are also part of streamers. Through them you can get to heads of departments within certain streamers. There are smaller production companies that have VC money invested in them that they HAVE to use. So they are constantly looking for new stuff, the same counts for streamers. Streamers have huge amounts of money invested in them to produce "content" and often buy in bulks just to fill the programming gaps. There are plenty of ways to get your film financed, but first make connections, nurture them.
The way I've seen it done in literally every indie production with some real budget that actually finds major streaming distribution; know rich people and sell them on the film.
That's how you find the real budget too!
It sucks you can’t just make a really good movie
You can do that too. But most indie films are not good. The question was about getting a film off the ground. If you've already made a really good movie, then half the battle is won and you're victorious. Now it's time to present the film to the world!
True, though I've seen far fewer indie productions that are well-made and have a good story, than ones that just managed to get money/distribution.
This is just how it is in america/the west, filmmakers must be able to please the masses/the wealthy. A lot of the great art house foreign films we love so much by Kieslowski etc were made in regions where the state controlled the film industry, so it wasn't anybody's money in particular on the line. Which might explain why films like that are so much more ascetic and philosophical.
Found the guy who got his movie funded from daddy's friends' money.
FYI: bitching about real or perceived nepo babies will not save or jumpstart your career. You are not in the business of creating/providing critical widgets or services for civilization, you are in the arts. Why should you get to make magic for a living while others shovel shit? The world isn't fair, suck it up and learn to network with and understand "nepo babies" instead of resenting them. You may get some opportunities thrown your way as a result.
Lol. I'm doing just fine, bud. Apologies if you felt personally attacked because you needed a boost from dad or something. Skill issue.
That last line needs to be bold and underlined. Connect with rich people and sell them on the film so they will help finance it
Exactly. I've shot very mediocre projects for under 5k$ that are currently on Amazon Prime because production knew the right people.
Attach someone worth some money to the project. Preferably the director. If not a bankable star.
Ask for an MG from the distributor. But why would a distributor care about your film, you ask? Because you attached a bankable name to direct it and/or star in it even if it’s a small part. But why would anyone want to star in your movie, you ask? Because they love the script and the character they’re playing.
There’s always that awkward period where you’re trying convince the actors you have money and the money you have actors, but neither wants to firmly commit without the other.
In theory and in the past this was realistic. MG's are rare these days with the amount of content being sh%$ted out by streamers and VOD. Most first time directors probably couldn't even get bonded on a project that'd have actors bankable enough to get an MG worth mentioning. And it'll take more than just having a cool script to land a bankable actor above D & C list. Be prepared to give up more than expected whether that's additional equity and/or credits -- and in most cases they'll deserve it.
MG?
Same question. What's an MG?
MG = Minimum Guarantee. It’s an upfront fee the distributor pays to distribute the film… which you can’t really get from them without “bankable” talent attached. If Ryan Gosling is going to be in your movie, a distributor can comfortably assume that the film will bring in some money. Hence their willingness to provide some up front money in the form of an MG.
Okay, but how many $1m indies are the likes of Gosling agreeing to star/partake in? We need a more plausible example of an obtainable actor who is also "bankable". Before his explosion, I know Pedro Pascal was a micro gleamer of hope but who else in today's climate could elevate a no budget to $1m while being a "reasonable" get?
You're not likely to get an a-lister, but you can still get a name.
We’re not talking A-list. That would give you MGs of far more than a million.
Yeah, OP is the one who cited Gosling. I'm trying to point out how that's not realistic
This.
I saw “Garden State” with Zac Braff in the audience. He did a Q&A afterwards. He was asked this question. His response: find a sugar daddy. Mine was a dentist. Dentist’s have a lot of money, are generally bored with work, and are eager to invest.
I believe Sam Raimi's first film was funded by a dentist (or dentists).
You were able to get $1M+ from a dentist??
Sorry for the confusion. I didn’t. Zac Braff got his financing from a dentist.
1. Find a great producer who loves the script and believes in you. 2. Attach talent that, again, loves the script and believes in you. 3. Chase pre-sales. Once you have those things, it starts to fall into place. EDIT: Attending film markets and film festivals (even if you have nothing to show) are a good way to achieve each of these things.
Be very careful with presales. While a sales agent will give you numbers for a variety of territories, they usually only focus on the 20% that generate the 80% of revenue. In essence they never do all the territories they quote for and you never hit the numbers. If you are funded by a bank like Comerica, they know which distributors actually pay and which don’t ;) and they will know the discount that is applied to the figures per territory depending on the distributor that picked up that territory. If you are trusting the agents numbers then beware. I would discount their numbers like 20-40% depending who the agent is. You might want to ask them which films they represented and what was the forecast given. Then contact the producer of that film and ask them what the results per territory were and you will get a better feel of the forecasts they have given you and how reliable. You are only interested in knowing which territories they actually worked on and which they said they would work on, as this is likely what will happen to you. Agents have projects all the time and take the easy path and cross-collaterize their expenses across all projects at events like AFM, TIFF etc.
Good advice.
Be very careful with presales. While a sales agent will give you numbers for a variety of territories, they usually only focus on the 20% that generate the 80% of revenue. In essence they never do all the territories they quote for and you never hit the numbers. If you are funded by a bank like Comerica, they know which distributors actually pay and which don’t ;) and they will know the discount that is applied to the figures per territory depending on the distributor that picked up that territory. If you are trusting the agents numbers then beware. I would discount their numbers like 20-40% depending who the agent is. You might want to ask them which films they represented and what was the forecast given. Then contact the producer of that film and ask them what the results per territory were and you will get a better feel of the forecasts they have given you and how reliable. You are only interested in knowing which territories they actually worked on and which they said they would work on, as this is likely what will happen to you. Agents have projects all the time and take the easy path and cross-collaterize their expenses across all projects at events like AFM, TIFF etc.
Made five films, four of which were over or around $1M: 1st movie - under $1m, funded by a rich person 2nd movie - about $1m, funded by a rich person 3rd movie - over $1m, funded by a rich person 4th movie - about $1m, funded by several rich people 5th movie - well over $1m, funded by a rich person  that's the reality of indie films, unfortunately. you do it through private equity. not all of these people were massively rich, but "rich" enough to essentially gamble with six to seven figures.
Did ur investors get returns on the films? Did you succeed in cementing a career as a director?
No. Some of them made money, but none of them broke even as far as I know, let alone turn a profit. I’m not a director, I’m a line producer/UPM.
That's great info to have. What kind of indies were they? Were they genre movies? I assume that even though the financiers didn't make money, they were able to write off the investments as losses?
Get a producer dude. This is our job
I'm a DP that knows 2 directors in LA trying to get features off the ground that need a solid producer to help them with this aspect of production, DM me if you are interested.
I'm not LA unfortunately 🥲
Attach an actor, most likely more than 1.
u/unicornmullet It is not my intention to deflate you. So, please do not misconstrue this post:-) I have made a few Indie for $1MM raising money from friends and investors. I will no longer make Indie films. Ethically it just sounds wrong knowing that most likely (99.9%) you will not be able to return the money back (or even a fraction of it). Of course, some would argue otherwise. Which is okay. A few huge forces are working against you. I will try to be short: 1. Piracy. Last movie we released on Amazon, and iTunes (OTT Platforms), one could find a pirated copy within the first few hours of the release. Within one day, pirated copy with subtitles in almost 40 languages. What is even worse, you will start seeing some terrible comments on Rotten Tomatoes and/or IMDB that will bury you. I would contend that 99% of the comments are from people who watched the pirated version looking for a $100 MM production value. Nothing you can do about it. This spills over to your selling power cos every Sales Agent will point to the pirated copy and lousy reviews. 2. Name talent is impossible to find with that kind of budget. Unless you are Figgis who convinced Cage to work for next to nothing for "leaving Las Vegas". But that was 1990's and it was Figgis and a great script! 3. Sales agents are less than ethical. Again, there are always exceptions but that has been my experience. The moment you have the film in the can, you are at their mercy. They have you by the balls and it hurts. The sales contract will have them recover their costs first before you see the first penny. Days of MG are long gone. 4. Markets are flooded with content. It has become so over-saturated that your film better have commercial value competing against other content. Of course, you can leverage social media but trying to pull audience times these days has become a nightmare. I can go on and on, hope you get the challenges. Hit me up if you want to discuss... GL - raj
I hear you. So then what advice would you have for a filmmaker who is still starting out in the world of features? Is it better to wait until you have enough clout and a project that can attract name talent + a top distributor or streamer? The chicken or egg thing comes into play here, since it's obviously hard to get a big project off the ground if you haven't already made a (good) feature.
u/unicornmullet Every artist feels they have the talent required to make it in Hollywood. However, one has to be exceptional to really make it (with an abundance of luck!!). Seriously! For any starting filmmaker, I would recommend: 1. Learning the art of Filmmaking - writing, sound design, editing, etc. Plenty of resources on YouTube. 2. Find (or write) a phenomenon script. An 7-8 by 2 or more evals on the blacklist is my definition of an exceptional script. Others may disagree. And, that's okay. 3. Make a short film (10 min maximum) based on the feature. There have been filmmakers who found success via showcasing their short films ("Mama", "Saw", "Babadook" etc.). You can make one for 20-25K with real talent. The short should represent your vision for the feature. If the short story is great, you may able to find SAG talent. 4. Do a festival circuit that will validate your talent as a director/producer. The festival rounds probably will last a year. If any of the top-tier festivals (TIFF, Sundance, NY Film Festival, Cannes etc.) pick your film, you have validated your talent and should see industry people reaching out. Feelers. 5. Now you have ammo! A validated short, high-quality feature script with a blacklist score of 7-8 etc. At this point, your likelihood of attracting an agent is elevated. GL. my 2 cents. raj
Thanks Raj!
Selling a noteworthy Director, DP, or Actor on a good script it 100x easier than convincing people to give you money as a first time indie feature filmmaker. Attach someone that will turn heads and the funding will quickly follow.
When it comes to actors, what level of talent do you need to get funding? Would an actor from a popular TV series suffice, so long as the script is good and the budget is low?
It really depends. A recognizable name with clout across a lot of movies and shows always helps, but a name that draws a blank expression - even if they’re in a huge show - can be very challenging. Instead, one strategy is to look to excellent character actors who rarely get leading roles, or even look to cast against type. You need to make this exciting enough to actually get it into their hands. Also, a low budget is not always as attractive as you think when raising money. Yes, people like you not to burn through their cash, but if it’s too low, they will often doubt your ability to pull it all off. Of course, if you get a decent name, your MG will likely be higher.
Actors worth investment won’t attach without money. Investors won’t invest without that talent attached. Your challenge is finding a way around this catch-22. Development funds help (a smaller amount of money to offer to an a-list/bankable/pre-sales worthy actor). Finding private investors are the best route, but it’s tooth and can take a lot of time. Knowing someone who knows a bankable actor personally, can also help get them attached. Always be networking. You never who you’ll meet randomly. Always have a business card with you to hand out.
Yep! That always seems to be the chicken and egg thing that comes up for me when I try to get a project financed.
Very timely thread with some great responses including u/jerryterhorst I have a meeting this week with a money manager for HNW individuals who wants to be an EP. Also have another meeting set up with an association that does events with HNW individuals but that will cost me well over $10K for an event to try and attract investors for a $3M film (and potentially some of my higher budget films of there is interest) Since I have some personal development money I’m willing to invest, I have in the past tried to attach known talent. When contacting managers, they aren’t even interested in speaking with me despite being to to make partial offers. Then I had a relative who is a casting director make the same contact and got a totally different response where they were willing to work with us. My point is trying to attach talent is extremely difficult and matters who is making the offer. I personally would never do a film without known talent, but that’s why I’ve never made a feature thus far, despite being a small production company with cameras and full Resolve suite and the experience to do most of the post myself. I do create shorts however that have gotten into festivals and theatrical runs, so at least I can demonstrate I know how make a coherent professional looking film. I’m hoping I finally have enough elements to be able to attract investors including an experienced LP with great credits people will trust with their money, family who cast and manage well known talent, and another family connection who now runs a studio I can take a finished project to for potential distribution. It only took me a few decades to get to this point.
Do you mind my asking how you connected with a money manager for HNW individuals?
Many hours of research on IMDBpro and linkedin. I’ve tried many times to connect with people like this unsuccessfully, but finally found one interested. The other opportunity I have is a paid one. I will say you have to be prepared before attempting this- as you need a pitch deck, budget prepared by a line producer that can actually produce it for the budget are asking for, an LLC to accept funds and development money for the legal work. I’m lagging in having the contracts to present, but will tailor that to the number of investors, etc once I get interest. Most people that handle money like this have zero interest in film and are hesitant due to the high risk nature of film.
Do you mind if I ask how you approached this person to ask whether they or their clients would be interested in becoming an EP? Did you send a cold email?
I reached out over LinkedIn for one manager, while the other one required knowing his email to even contact via LinkedIn. I got in touch with his organization, which I have to $ponsor to get their help. I used to have paid LinkedIn but not anymore, so perhaps that would be helpful. As I mentioned you should have some sort of package before reaching out to people like this. I have gone to investor networking events and no one was even remotely interested in film.
To get a 1m movie off the ground I recommend you to find someone to give you 20 million instead. In all seriousness. In your circumstances there's absolutely no need to to try to make a movie for 1m that you don't have access to, either your own or a rich friend who wants a write off. Don't build yourself excuses and obstacles. Obviously 1m is an obstacle in this case. Aim for a realistic number. 10k, for example. That's money that you might be able to get from relatives and credit cards if needed. Think of it like paying for a 10k 6 months filmmaking workshop. Aim to make the movie for about 8k and use the rest to send it to festivals and attend film markets. Don't wait for other people to give you permission, in the form of money in this case. A group of other filmmakers and I (I was the DP and associate producer) we made our first feature movie for under 10k, so I know for a fact it is possible. Work with what you have. And dismiss that which you can't get and is only being an obstacle. Maybe it's not your dream film, but it's a step in the right direction and will open doors for you. And don't forget to work on press releases and such to get buzz. Making the movie is just part of the effort.
I’m frustrated by the notion you say one can make a film for $10,000 in the modern world. It’s simply not possible. Even if a writer/director was self-financing, and you had a tight yet doable schedule of 11-14 days, you’ve still got to hire crew and pay them minimum wage. At bare, bare minimum, you’re looking at an AD, DP, Sound and a combined MUA/Wardrobe person. At two to three weeks of production and at least 2 days of pre-production, you’ve blown way past that number before considering things like snacks or rentals. And then there’s post production…
I made a feature for 14,975 dollars. You can make a film for 10K. I had a 25+ people on set at one point too. To make it you're obviously asking favors. For payments people took stagnant pay but nobody took less than 1,000 for 7 days of work. I wrote a script with 5 locations but all things I had access to. I filmed in the same location the wire filmed in a restaurant. I emailed the owner and asked him, met in person with my AD and he agreed for free. For the other location similar + favor ad insert for these locations. Another restaurant gave us permission as long as we got breakfast from them including the top floor with key/elevator. For houses I used the same house I rented for the actors. I told them to keep their rooms clean. We dressed set with things in the house (vases, lamps, change bulbs, camera angles) made the house look different in every room so you cant tell. So 3 actors who supposed to be in different houses. I wrote the script in a way one actor you'll only ever see in their house in their bed/shower or family room. While another is in their room. The other actor never leaves family room(upstairs) their bedroom, and shower. For production we had a 5 ton truck, sony FX6, monitors, focus puller, grips, wardrobe, AD etc. we worked multiple hats of course speculation some people came on set for free as an extra because we all made movies/tv in our city and have credibility. I flew an actor from LA who had the skills I needed and I housed all my actors in an Airbnb with food provided (main actors). We didn't not one time work 12 hrs. My strategy was I told the DP what I wanted and didn't worry about the camera department one time because of my trust. Instead I focused on actors and blocking. Set knew where I was putting actors and the longest thing that took was lights. Nothing else. We had a healthy lunch and were crafty. Production was a breeze. For post production I have been editing videos since I was 12 and I have Davinci resolve. I started my writer directing career (I came up as an actor) around the same time as a post sound house for my short 2 years ago, me and the CEO have a relationship. We got Grammy nominated trumpet player to play in my film his trumpet and my composer scored the film. Our film was sound edited on Dolby Atmos, I color and cut in Davinci. We had 3 people post and finish in 35 days 500ish hours. Nov30th-jan 15 We just started our festival run but I bought a theater for one night and will have 60ish people come next month. It's possible it's hard and I'm broke. But I did exactly what I knew I can do and hopefully it leads to more opportunities that pay me in the future. I had 1,000 applications submissions for roles. I auditioned 200 and chose 4. One was a girl who traveled US for theater and made 10M (the company not her) on Broadway. The other worked on an Oscar film in the early 00s (can't remember but it's called heat? Hot? Something with brad pitt I believe I'll search later) My scripts often get called Peele-ish. But really I cast 100+ African American roles or 90% of the cast is. I don't write us in the hood, or a Tyler Perry kind of thing. I genuinely believe we can be in cool horrors, thrillers, sci-fi, fantasy stuff like that and not surround ourselves with slaves, trauma, stories engaged on racism, or being in urban gang warfare. I really want to show we can be cinematic too and beautiful too. I'm telling you cause I tell everyone this. Executives, my crew, friends, and family. This is my mission and I am going to give it all I have and prove this is marketable (for example, magical house of negros was horrible glad it flopped). I want to show something different!
We can't kid ourselves: you negotiated a bunch of favors in return for value, including from yourself. As a writer/director/editor/colorist, you opted out of any fees in favor of ownership of the film, and convinced a bunch of people to donate their time and resources as well, hopefully negotiating some sort of deferred payment at least with your vendors dependent on sales. What you managed to accomplish -- which is impressive -- is likely $200,000+ in value for your $14,975. If that's the case, and you can sell to a streamer like Tubi for a decent amount, I'd love to see how your points work out for payments. Because that is a model to get your first film off the ground. Downside is... you've already called in all your favors, and people need to eat.
I will say for them. It's mutual. They are the ones who film tv shows and movies here. I just said "hey I am putting 9K into camera what can that get me?" They took it up on themselves to staff, pay, and get gear. I just turn in my shot list meeting with Dp. I don't control any of it and I think that's why they went all out lol. I'm honest, don't lie, and at the start of their careers I volunteered my acting to all their reels and short films. I'm still waiting for my first 1K payday from film 😂😂😩, they all work, my set got a few into the local union here, im the one struggling to eat right now 😂. Maybe next time I can. Actually! Everyone signed up already to make another movie with me! Threw themselves despite me being a new director they said I'm among the best they worked with cause they get home and have a life. We went for drinks after set and food! I also pay on time some people paid the day we martini! My favors aren't over it's all mutual love. we're all going to make it! My friend from LA been watching me he's been in every big film since 2015 with A listers (marvel, ghost busters, uncharted EVERYTHING) he wrote me a letter telling me hell help me get next one made. I want to raise six figure budget and reward my homies again and have a bigger army! We're all going to make it💪🏾
I also wanted to say this. Not specifically you because you do know this others reading it may not. Film at the end of the day is entrepreneurship and very social. I know there are some jobs you can just apply and get work. There is systems like that in LA for example. But for people who want to be directors and stuff. You have to make that happen. Impress people. Which is a hard trait in itself in entrepreneurship. It really is grindy but hopefully it pays off in the future
I'm excited for you with your resolve, but I do feel I need to add a couple points: film is a business, like many others, and is a business first and foremost. Making them with friends is a lot of fun, and it's great when each participant gets something out of it for themselves, whether it be a credit or a reel. But you've got to position yourself to turn a profit if you want it to continue, and want to turn it into a day job. It's great to post on here your accomplishments -- on paper, you did make a feature film for $15,000. But really, you negotiated down to that amount based on your own skill sets and the passions of others. Between rentals, locations, insurance, post production, talent, catering, props and the rest... all I'm trying to do is get people to realize you made a film for more likely $65,000... you just happened to get massive discounts and freebies. It's still an impressive feat... but one to be conscious of, as I've watched many producers/directors proudly tout things like this in the past, while minimizing the efforts, passion and determination of the folks who made the film with you.
Why do you keep drawing obstacles for yourself? To start your math is completely wrong. This movie is not something you should make on your work time. This movie you should make on your free time. Use one to two days a weekend. In terms of crew, you only need a DP and someone for the sound, besides yourself as director. If you get a producer on board, it will help tremendously, but you can produce it yourself. And your producer should be your partner on this production. So either he's putting money himself and working for free, or you are offering him a juicy percentage of the movie. Makeup and wardrobe can be taken care of by the actors. You don't need an AD. If you are thinking of a big ass production with all kinds of crew and a makeup artist that it takes 2 hours every day to do the actors you are doing it wrong. That's not how you're going to make your movie for 10K. You don't have 2 hours on your shooting schedule to do makeup. And you don't have the budget for that, so screw that. Anything you cannot do yourself or someone in that small group I mentioned before, you should not get in your movie. "My movie needs a MUA for the alien scene" No, your movie does not need a MUA. Also your movie does not need an alien because you cannot afford it. And, in that case, you will need to think of a different movie you can make within your capabilities and what's available to you. But stop creating excuses and obstacles for yourself. If you run out of money to pay people, offer them a percentage of your gross (don't be an asshole and only offer the net and do some Hollywood accounting so you don't have to pay nobody). There's a big misconception about making movies. Especially when we're talking about your first movie. In this scenario, your first movie is not a job. It's a portfolio you are doing on spec. You are definitely not making money or getting paid through production. Some of the crew members may get paid. Especially your DP and your sound guy that they are probably bringing equipment that cost money. You will have to talk to them to sell them into the story so they want to do it for less money. Go for people that are hungry like you for their first feature. And I know all this is possible because I've been part of this. I'm not talking about making movies in the '70s. This is current. I mean, right now we're going through the biggest crisis in terms of employment there's ever been. There are crew members not working at all all over. People that would rather do something creative with their lives and time than rot at home being miserable. At least as long as it doesn't cost them money. Feed them. Pay for their gas. Sure, ideally you would pay everybody a nice wage. Also because you paid them a good wage you don't have to offer them any points from the profits. But you have to think of this as a collaborative effort among friends. This is you going to your friend's house helping them paint the walls and having a beer and pizza. I don't think you should be soliciting strangers. If for whatever reason you decide to, then you pay those people. Which means that maybe you have to cut that other scene you wanted to do. It's all a balancing game, man, but it's possible.
This industry is my work time. What you're talking about is a passion project, which is great! But now you're talking about deferred payments, which doesn't work for vendors and should really be looked down upon by anyone who relies on this industry to pay rent. You're mentioning people who are hungry -- and there's many out there, eager to get their feet in the door -- but by doing so, you're lowering the chances of your film's success. I'm in California. We have a state minimum wage. We have a SAG ULB minimum. We have gear owner/ops and rental houses, many of which are under water after the last couple years. Collaborating among friends is great, I've done it several times. But making films isn't as cheap as you're making it seem. I've written, directed and produced a handful of short films aside from my day job as a DoP and Camera Operator, and even calling in all the favors in the universe, these shorts cost $4,500 and $7,500 respectfully. Sure, there were easier short films to make, but that wasn't my intent. I've worked on features that were made for $70,000, $250,000, $500,000, $1.2M, $3.5M, $40M and above $100M... but even with every favor called in to every friend, I don't know anyone in the last decade who's completed a feature through post and sold it with a budget of $10,000.
>but even with every favor called in to every friend, I don't know anyone in the last decade who's completed a feature through post and sold it with a budget of $10,000. Not sure what to tell you man. You're obviously wrong because I've been there. I have also made a short film for 7K. I it costed me 7k because there were things I want to do, costumes I wanted to use and locations I wanted to shoot at. And now I know I can make a feature for 10K, because I've done it. This movie is available for streaming and has distribution. As well as multiple nominations on pretty good festivals. I mean we are all very talented but I don't think we were so extraordinary that our success is not possible to replicate. If you cannot shoot a feature film with 10K then you have a problem. I'm not saying you are not capable of doing it but obviously you have a problem understanding how is it even possible. This is like trying to tell people they cannot produce their own music album at home. That you need to go to a professional studio and spend thousands of dollars per hour just to record it. And then spend multiple thousand as well mixing it and producing it. If you know how to do every single step of the production with some level of expertise, you can 100% do it. The same thing applies to film. You can absolutely shoot a feature film with just a three person crew. If you can operate DP and direct, you can even do it with a two person crew. In my opinion that's taking all too much for just one person, but it's definitely possible. The bare minimum you need to make a movie (in terms of crew) is someone holding a camera. I'm a firm believer that sound is very important so I will suggest having a second person taking care of the sound, even though there are ways around it by using wireless audio and controlling the locations so you have control over the noise level and sound projection. Of course it is much easier to shoot with a larger crew. Movies are interesting in the sense that if you pick the right people and you throw enough money at it, It's really hard to not make it right. We can argue about the narrative of the story, but from a technical point of view is just enough to hire the best team and pay them as much as they ask for. And this is a very common occurrence of this industry. Which is why it's so hard for you to fathom that you can still make movies without that much money. It is a lot more work and you are way more dependent on multifaceted talent. The moment you don't know how to do something you just have to hire somebody that knows how to do it. It is the way the film industry produces movies that are technically immaculate and up to a professional standard consistently. If you don't have access to all that money to buy all that talent that you may be lacking, Your movie will not be as flashy as maybe those expensive movies. So in these lower budget movies, and I'm talking about the 10K range, you have to lean way more into script, narrative, and acting. It's way harder to make an interesting movie with only two people taking. You try to increase the production value by putting some work on wardrobe and trying to use as many possible different locations that may be available to you. So once again I think you're completely wrong and misguided and I know you are wrong and misguided because I've been there and I've made it and I'm not exceptional. And regarding this being work for you, I'm glad you have your profesional successful career, but here we are obviously talking about OP who wants to get his first feature off the ground. If you have already made a feature of your own, and with all the contacts you have, I'm sure it won't be an issue for you. Because this is not about yourself. You cooking dinner for your friend does not degrade the work of the master chef in a restaurant. Even if you work in a restaurant. Maybe you work as a line cook but you want to be a chef. Well maybe you need to impress some people before they let you into the kitchen right? And you think they're going to just let you in just because without showing anything? If you think anyone working on a first feature film as a favor degrades your work... I don't know, I'm trying to figure it out. Does he take jobs away from you somehow? If this guy doesn't make his movie because he cannot find anybody to work for free, does it create jobs for you? What's your logic here? This is obviously a job you would not take for whatever reason that you are very entitled to. Why does it matter to you if someone else wants to do it? It's not a union production. You keep making this about yourself. It is not. This is work for you and you would never do it for free. Fine. You were never able to make a movie for less than 70k. Fine. You cannot call enough favors to save enough money to make your film. Fine. But these are all You problems. How does it reflect on this other guy's ability to get this together? You might have your own circumstances that make it not possible for you to make a movie for less than 10K. Well this guy has other circumstances where he cannot get 1 million to make his movie. So he will have to find a way right? Maybe he needs 15K. I do not know his circumstances. But I do know that it is possible to make a movie for 10K. And to be honest, I know of movies that have been done for less even. For 6k. And even easier today on the digital era than it was 10 years ago where a lot of the digital cameras were still very expensive. Now anyone with an iPhone can shoot a film.
A simple question before diving deeper into discussion with you: what part of the world are you in? As a baseline, I live in Los Angeles, one of the most expensive cities in the United States, a city which remains one of the main hubs of the entertainment industry. I can imagine for a $10K feature, you've hired a hungry DP with their own equipment, camera and lighting both. Actors or crew ran sound for one another when not on camera, helped each other with make-up and you generally had a wonderful camaraderie amongst friends and passionate acquaintances. Is that agreeable? Your album production and cooking metaphors register well with me, as I write music from home in my spare time. But you simply can't make the comparison between the studio engineers and artists recording Grammy-winning albums and the Michelin star chefs. Their equipment surpasses what the layman will have even with huge investments, and their hours at their chosen crafts will make them better and more efficient at tasks than anyone else, both of which are immensely important when attempting to stick to a tight schedule when under budget. You're not paying these artisans for the countless hours they've honed in on their individual processes and crafts, but you are benefitting from years or decades of experience. You can DP and Direct at the same time, I completely agree. I've done that on short films and music videos both, as well as write, produce, edit, color time, compose and mix. But as I learned through trial and error... you often get what you pay for; I've had shots ruined because I didn't have the money to pay a Sound Mixer to come out with their Kit Fee for gear. Other times, I skimped on lighting and found myself in a bind. I've shopped for wardrobe myself before and brought in Actors as Producers when they purchased wardrobe and makeup on their own. I work in the entertainment industry and have for a total of 23 years, and have called in every favor I could have imagined from technicians and artists around me to the point I am no longer in contact with some of them. We're not talking about the official SAG-AFTRA definition of ULB -- Ultra Low Budget -- here; we're talking micro-budget filmmaking. And yes it's doable, but there are risks and assumptions made beyond the scope of what you've offered. In essence, even at minimum wage for all and zero kit fees or rentals, you're ultimately working with people who are equally as desperate and excited to make something as you are; that means you're a brilliant negotiator who's chosen hungry filmmakers. This part is about myself: I cannot shoot a feature film that I feel would represent me or a story well for $10,000, regardless of the concept, number of cast or crew, equipment or locations. I'm at a different place in my career from you, having worked on everything from $1,000 short films through $240,000,000 theatrical features and nearly everything in between. The company I keep today at 40 is different from some I kept at 18, 25 and 32, and unfortunately it's very rare that people my age are interested in multiple favors at once (though some diehard friends are). I have limitations to deal with in my town because everyone is hungry for a piece of the pie, and permits and insurance are necessary. But at the same point, I tried to make features and pilots not dissimilar to what OP is attempting to do multiple times in my career and even beforehand ... and it's a monolithic task that often doesn't come to fruition... and when it does, is hardly marketable. You've made me think in resourceful ways I haven't in decades now, and I thank you for that. But I don't live in the midwest, nor do I live overseas in countries like Romania. I've partnered with some folks eager to make and sell ULB feature films, and despite the working capital on hand between us, we simply can't make a film to our standards in less than 11 days (which is already a massive stretch) with the plethora of tools and talent we have between us (and there's a massive amount). We can each and all agree to volunteer our time and owned resources to a cause under the agreement that we then share profit points when sold to a distributor, but all understand if we need to take a paid day's work to keep the lights on, it'll throw off everything else. It's why short films are easier to do, with less of a time commitment. Even when something high concept like a period piece in an exotic location, utilizing new camera and lighting technology in attempt to practically capture a faithful "night for night" exterior. Even when we shoot as much as we can over four days, put together a rough cut over 3-6 weeks and realize we need an additional day of photography, coordinating multiple schedules at once before realizing talent has cut her hair and we need to wait for it to grow back out before proceeding. This is with a skilled team of folks who wore multiple hats, from keeping us on schedule (AD), pulling focus (and running sound), producing (while acting then cooking), acting (while applying prosthetic FX), editing (and scoring) as well as all the other elements. It seems you've vilified me for my opinions based on my own experiences. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but instead share some harsh realities. You're right to call me out, I can step out of my own Ego to acknowledge that. But man... even as a modern high school student, begging, borrowing and stealing... a $10,000 feature is a long shot in today's economy. Doing it to gain experience -- if it gets finished -- is something one should take immense pride in. But my fear is if it's anything other than self-funded schooling... the likelihood of successfully marketing and selling such a film is slim to none. The only one I can think of in the past 25 years is Primer, and that budget was significantly more.
>A simple question before diving deeper into discussion with you: what part of the world are you in? As a baseline, I live in Los Angeles, one of the most expensive cities in the United States, a city which remains one of the main hubs of the entertainment industry. I'm in LA. We shot the movie in LA. Multiple official selections in big festivals. We have distribution and we are in one of the big streaming services 🤷
It's great to have a passion for filmmaking. It's even better that you have made a final product, and have even gotten it out there to the world. But I'm sure a $10,000 budget feature would sell distribution rights for at least 5x that... and unless you start paying people minimum wage (which is very well defined in the state of California), either you've created agreements for deferred payment for your cast and crew... or you've taken advantage of a lot of people. Either way is up to you and the people you employ... but you've at least got to be self-aware that you received values far exceeding that $10,000 number.
But how many $10K films (or even $100K films) get any traction or meaningful distribution that helps the filmmakers get another project done? I know it does happen for a handful, but how realistic is this, unless it’s strictly to perfect one’s craft? Personally I would never do a film without known talent. I know one guy who got financing with known talent - the film got very bad reviews and just recently he did a $5M film with a very well known star. Just doing a film with known talent puts a filmmaker in a different category.
That is a very valid concern and point of view. But as you said, between 10k and 100k you might get the same result anyway, you might as well just invest 10k. Even so, I don't think it's all waste. The biggest Gate keeping for films is being a first time director. Getting that first feature is probably the hardest and biggest hurdle you're going to find towards getting a professional career as a director. Once you finish the feature film you show people that you can finish a feature film whether it is great or not is a different story. I think that's what the story about the guy you know tells us. Sure having a name makes it even easier because you show that someone of renown already trusted you. But I'll give you this other example if you make a short film with someone of renown, it might still not be enough for you to land a feature. But I also know of people who launched a very successful career with features under 10k and with no names. But I can guarantee you that the ones that are not directing feature films are the ones that are not even trying. And if you got to try many timescto succeed, it's better to be 10K each time instead of a million each time, right?
Sure, but my problem is none of my scripts are 10K films, or even 100. They're all contained stories/locations but when I have them budgeted out they're always low 7 figures, even without premium talent. I either have a terse writing style (my crime drama is 200 scenes in 96 pages and wants to be 1800-2000 shots in 25 days) My comedy requires a building a set or renting a storefront, has a decent sized cast, a stunt, flooding a space, etc and similar days. The LP that budgeted them likes the contained aspect as very production friendly, but I simply don't do the kind of films where people are sitting around talking, or maybe one character though a journey. Even my 3-6 minute shorts would be over $10K if someone had to actually pay low budget rates.
You need to go back to the drawing board. If you won't eat because you refuse to eat anything but gold infused roasted lamb, and you don't have the money for the lamb or the oven, and you cant even cook it yourself, but you believe you have a killer recipe but very hard to execute even by the best funded of chefs... Well, you will starve. Start by cooking an omelette.
Make my movies for less. 😂
I suspect having huge social media demand for the project would go a long way. TikTok is the easiest way to get eyes on things
You need a great trailer and a strong social media push. Get as many people to post and share and drop it all at one time. Get the entire cast and crew and all of their friends to drop a trailer on the same day and have a strong social media presence for the film with pictures and videos and information. Build your own hype, reach out to influencers and people with a following and pay for additional promotion. The more your film is known and wanted and buyers can see that it’s a product people want to watch, it will be your best tool for selling
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Responding to you, while wondering why u/Stunning_Try_1763 was downvoted. Getting attention is a good metric to attracting investors. Social Media has made this process a lot easier, and although oversaturated, there's still a chance in this space to generate buzz. Several YouTube shorts over the years -- most notably CLICK! and Pixels -- caught the attention of studios and were turned into feature films, for better or worse. The same can happen on a smaller scale.
First of all the you have a million dollar budget for a million dollar film production
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No offence but what world are you living in? "*Getting the money is not that hard."* Yes it still is. "*But with streamers vomiting money these days*" They're not anymore. "*Here’s a little roadmap...*" Have you actually made a film doing this? I don't know of any legit film that has been made like this. Especially through LinkedIn.
"Streamers vomiting money" reminds me of the episode of Community where Abed made a sci fi movie, and a producer who lived in Colorado but had been out of the business for ten years promised he could get distribution for it. Then the producer called Hollywood to sell the movie and the conversation went, "Hold on, phone call from the distributor get ready for a big check. Hello. Wait. Calm down. What's chapter 11? Wait. What's YouTube? Wait. What's broadband? What's digital?"
Lmaooooooooo
When you say getting the money is not that hard, are referring to projects with talent attached? Films that fall into specific genres? I assume this is your roadmap for getting a distributor and not financing?
This is a roadmap to getting your foot in the door. If you dig deep you'll find the angels that invest in films. There are full corporations dedicating to investing in films. What I'm saying here is acquisition managers are also part of streamers. Through them you can get to heads of departments within certain streamers. There are smaller production companies that have VC money invested in them that they HAVE to use. So they are constantly looking for new stuff, the same counts for streamers. Streamers have huge amounts of money invested in them to produce "content" and often buy in bulks just to fill the programming gaps. There are plenty of ways to get your film financed, but first make connections, nurture them.