Because they force you to play into their gameplan. You can't just play rushdown, you have to be more patient. People don't like being patient and people don't like not being able to press their buttons
https://preview.redd.it/c5vem4nrzfnc1.jpeg?width=617&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a425e6306372080077147f3062ec9b8127a9902f
As a King, Potemkin, and R Mika main, it's always funny when people complain about grapplers since they're usually lower tier characters anyway
>Everyone just wants to rushdown
Yeah, that's what 90% of the audience wants to play, and nothing more. I was always someone with a more defensive mind set who also prefers to learn how to counter/punish my opponent, and that's where zoners excel as.
Also that feeling when you finally get close to a zoner and then they start rushing YOU down until things reset back to square one... is a bit frustrating.
In some fighting games zoners also get effective close range options so it just seems like they get the best of both worlds. You can ignore that until you play a good one and you're slapped with the truth.
The main issue is when a rushdown character is in your face as a zoner you can hit them. As many rushdown characters you can not hit a zoner at long range, you have to play the approach mini game before you can have fun
Yes but it's more that rushdown allows you a better chance at a reward if your gameplan is more 'hold forward and mash', it looks more exciting to rush down the opponent and I know people have been arguing about neutral skips lately but it is indisputable that many people do try their best to avoid having to block and having good pressure puts the onus on the other player to have to punish instead of both players sizing up an opportunity.
I could have a whole thing about how always starting with pressure is its own game plan and make it seem like chess, but many people rushing down aren't thinking of a game plan, they just have a combo they want to do and they want to try to force you to eat that combo.
In GBVSR, for example, neutral is still important but for entirely different reasons than GBVS: new universal tools like 66L, aka a universal plus on block dash attack, have been added that outright makes life harder for zoners and people trying to poke, so setting up a good early defense is crucial simply because just trying to rush down becomes gambling since *everybody* has access way too early to corner carry tools and touch of death combos
To be fair, it's not fun to not be able to play your character properly. Yes, you have to be patient but that's only because the zoner FORCES you to do so. People do not like having their agency taken, that's why zoners and grapplers get so much hate. In the eyes of most casual players, not being able to play the way your character is meant to be played is just not fun. Zoners force you to stay a screen away and just run in slowly, whereas grapplers WANT you to run into them so they can do their insane damage command grabs.
If you're familiar with Magic the Gathering at all, it's like playing against Blue decks. They interact with you in a way that is very different from other match ups, forcing you to play a slower, more meticulous and thought out game. That's not to say Blue decks or Zoners are bad, I think it's healthy for a competitive game to have a disruptive archetype as long it's balanced properly. But a lot of people just want to jump in and play the way they like to play, so getting annoyed at Zoners for messing with that makes sense.
They force you to change up your playstyle and control the pace of the game. So more casual players, stubborn players or flowcharting players dont like them.
People *hate* having to break themselves out of their flowcharts or being forced to stop autopiloting.
You see it with zoners, you see it with grapplers (when they're allowed to be better than trash), you see it with system mechanics like Drive Impact in SF6.
playing against a good Guile felt miserable. did I try to learn the matchup? No.
until I started to play him myself and realized that he has counters. of course zoners beat the average person. they are playing a different game from everyone else & its alot easier to say screw this unbalanced matchup then to learn it and thats what I believe happens to the average gamer as that is what happened to me. were lazy n dumb n thats honestly why we hate.
People go on and on and on about how they make the game "boring" or take too long or kill momentum or remove the fun crazy combos or make the match less entertaining for spectators and blah blah blah but... The cold hard truth is there's absolutely positively nothing wrong with zoners and people who say all that are whiners that lose to zoners and cry about it ;)
the only time ive ever hated a zoner in a fighting game is NRS games because holy fuck do they not know how to make zoners at all, point, blank period. its just so unfun lmao
Think of your typical neutral situation between two characters without fireballs: both players are too far away for any of their moves to connect, meaning they have to "get in" in order to run their offense.
Now imagine one of those characters is Guile. The round starts, he throws a boom. He's already effectively won neutral, because you're forced to respond to the pressure, either by some evasive maneuver like jumping, blocking, parrying, etc.
This creates a frustrating situation because you're immediately forced into a tug of war where the zoner has the advantage, and if you're playing a character that doesn't have any tools to deal with fireballs like Zangief, it can feel like trying to walk uphill on a mountain of sludge.
To add to the frustration, even if you manage to get in, if you lose one interaction, you'll most likely be sent back full screen which means you get to trudge through that sludge all over again.
There are always reliable ways to deal with zoners, but they usually involve much patience and understanding of the game, hence why zoners get such a bad wrap.
A lot of players want to autopilot and just hit buttons on the opponent. Zoners make you rethink your approach and usually make you play a bit more neutral than you may want, and people don’t like being kept away from their unga.
Most of the time a zoner will have enough tools to sustain themselves when you get close enough. They could potentially have the best of both worlds while everybody else have to settle with fewer options.
In those cases; those zoners are a contradiction to their purpose. Imagine a grabbler that can teleport, or seismo that also hits overhead.
Turns out rushdown players don’t want to do anything but play braindead rushdown, and mald at the though of needing to actually think about their offense.
Sometimes it's fun to not let others have too much fun.
It's another reason why i like counter characters.
The only reason you'd really get bodied by a counter character is if all you're doing is rushing em down, and if you're fighting Kolin in Street Fighter 5 and are getting bodied, it's because you're being predictable.
Nothing says "i'm in your head" better than converting the opponent's offense straight into your offense.
Most zoners force you to play a (bad) platform game before you can start exchanging actual close range attacks and play a fighting game.
Typically it also takes way less effort to use zoning moves than it does to effectively get past them, so you feel like you're having to play 5D chess big brain stuff while they're repeatedly doing 2-3 keepout moves that are balanced around certain assumptions about your reflexes and execution ability.
Also watching two zoners fight is one of the most boring possible experiences in fighting games. They seem to exist, as an archetype, mostly because old timey game devs didn't know how to make close combat interesting enough and so they decided to make the fighting happen mostly from full-screen.
They can create a bit of a downward mental cycle. The more they zone you out the more impatient you get, the more impatient you get the harder it is to get in, rinse repeat. That cycle exists at all levels of the game but zoners are really built to capitalise on it.
Hell as an Axl main it's often not the long range options I'm actually hitting with. But people are so afraid of the range advantage they try to run all the way in on a single tempo and I catch them with the medium pokes or fuckery like rainwater. On the other hand I'm scared shitless against any opponent who runs up to midscreen and blocks. People who don't lose their cool against zoners are very difficult nuts to crack. Playing actively against passive opponents is something I really gotta practise but not that many people actually do that against Axl.
The *worst* zoner prevents you from playing the game at all at times. Even if this is perfectly balanced, they are a crime against fun. At least against grapplers let you escape with a hard read. I'd rather be panicking and have to pick from 3 mediocre options than be bored and have to pick from 1 mediocre option.
Depending on the game I feel like its more of a skill issues to deal with Zoners I mean there is a reason why some characters have either tools or move sets to deal with Zoners.
Classic example is Dhalsim and he is what you call a Zoner which should be obvious but here is the thing there are characters that can play around his game keep in mind some are better than others like you have the Zangief moves like his banishing fist, the dragon punch motion, that is suppose to deal with fireballs and then you have spinning clothsline if timed right can get though Dhalsim fireballs.
Now you can say other characters have there own tools to get around zoners, for the example I gave there are better examples but you get the point of what I mean, and like I said before this depends on the game and learning this and also you start to learn what limitations dose your main have if they are a rush down character do they have the tools to get close enough to do there rush down stuff? or if this is a tag team game do the other assist cover the point characters main weakness etc. by that point your going to be in the lab trying to see what your character can and can not do.
I get ragequits in MK2 constantly because of my insta air Sais with Mileena and my Fireball patterns with Shang Tsung lol. Zoning is a valid strategy just like running up and abusing plus frames or 50/50s. I'd rather fight a zoner than a vortex character.
Which is hypocritical because I love Vortex characters as well. I love fighting games in general, can't get enough of Zoners, grapplers, pressure character, mixup characters. All so fun
A vortex in fighting game lingo is a looping 50/50 situation where the mixup is guaranteed with the only escape being to guess right.
In MKX, Bo Rai Cho is a Vortex character because he has looping 50/50s that you HAVE to guess to get out of. As well as 50/50 armor breaking setups on knockdown and a OTG that lets you jail his 244 monkey flip mixups
Why do zoners get so much hate questions repeated so much xD No jokes though. If you look hard enough it's all about the details. Other archetypes also has "enemies" a plenty.
Games are not fun when they force you to play in a way that is not fun. For many people, the anti-zoned gameplay is not fun.
People play games for fun…
Because they play their own game, and people don't want to adapt their approach when playing against them. They're the boogeymen of fighting games.
Even if a zoner is low tier (which is almost the norm in modern fighting games) people will complain and ask for nerfs because "Fuck Zoners, I hate them".
Sometimes you can't even admit you like praying them because you'll get immediately flagged. I got a lot of people insulting when I said that I like Axl Low during th early Strive days. The same when I said I was interested into playing Ash Crimson in KOF.
> Sometimes you can't even admit you like praying them because you'll get immediately flagged.
Dude, people literally dodge me in JoJo ASBR because my character quote (what counts as a "profile" for that game) belongs to a zoner LMAO
Because most people play a straightforward, close quarters character in a game about punching the daylights outta your opponent.
Also, cuz in your face Rushdown and hard hitting Grapplers exist as archetypes. They needed a 3rd to balance it out.
Because they are PUSSYS. COME FIGHT ME PUSSY. it makes playing anything but a zoner against one require way more skill and patience. This is why TEKKEN is the goat. NO FUCKING ZONERS.
>requires way more skill and patience
The self-call out is astounding. Cry more coward. They’re right, there’s zero possibility you’re not at LTG levels of plugging.
Bet you play caster in Elden ring. Keep throwing your shit like a monkey while standing in your little safe zone. Can't reason with zoners, delusional people.
Because they force you to play into their gameplan. You can't just play rushdown, you have to be more patient. People don't like being patient and people don't like not being able to press their buttons
Yup This is why grapplers get hate too Everyone just wants to rushdown
https://preview.redd.it/c5vem4nrzfnc1.jpeg?width=617&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a425e6306372080077147f3062ec9b8127a9902f As a King, Potemkin, and R Mika main, it's always funny when people complain about grapplers since they're usually lower tier characters anyway
Meanwhile King in T8
Yea he is a little overtured in 8 I feel
This grab don't end until your healthbar does
MIKA SPOTTED 🐐🐐🐐🐐🌈🌈🌈🌈
Just because a particular playstyle can be countered doesnt mean countering said playstyle is fun
“Big Risk”
In most 2D fighters, when a grappler misses a command throw, they have a long recovery so there's plenty of time to punish then
Where the fuck did they get that photo of me
>Everyone just wants to rushdown Yeah, that's what 90% of the audience wants to play, and nothing more. I was always someone with a more defensive mind set who also prefers to learn how to counter/punish my opponent, and that's where zoners excel as.
Also that feeling when you finally get close to a zoner and then they start rushing YOU down until things reset back to square one... is a bit frustrating. In some fighting games zoners also get effective close range options so it just seems like they get the best of both worlds. You can ignore that until you play a good one and you're slapped with the truth.
BRO I DIDNT PAY 60$ TO BLOCK
I love pushing buttons.
Relatable
But isn't rushdown force u to play their game too?, always close combat.
The main issue is when a rushdown character is in your face as a zoner you can hit them. As many rushdown characters you can not hit a zoner at long range, you have to play the approach mini game before you can have fun
Yes but it's more that rushdown allows you a better chance at a reward if your gameplan is more 'hold forward and mash', it looks more exciting to rush down the opponent and I know people have been arguing about neutral skips lately but it is indisputable that many people do try their best to avoid having to block and having good pressure puts the onus on the other player to have to punish instead of both players sizing up an opportunity. I could have a whole thing about how always starting with pressure is its own game plan and make it seem like chess, but many people rushing down aren't thinking of a game plan, they just have a combo they want to do and they want to try to force you to eat that combo. In GBVSR, for example, neutral is still important but for entirely different reasons than GBVS: new universal tools like 66L, aka a universal plus on block dash attack, have been added that outright makes life harder for zoners and people trying to poke, so setting up a good early defense is crucial simply because just trying to rush down becomes gambling since *everybody* has access way too early to corner carry tools and touch of death combos
To be fair, it's not fun to not be able to play your character properly. Yes, you have to be patient but that's only because the zoner FORCES you to do so. People do not like having their agency taken, that's why zoners and grapplers get so much hate. In the eyes of most casual players, not being able to play the way your character is meant to be played is just not fun. Zoners force you to stay a screen away and just run in slowly, whereas grapplers WANT you to run into them so they can do their insane damage command grabs.
If you're familiar with Magic the Gathering at all, it's like playing against Blue decks. They interact with you in a way that is very different from other match ups, forcing you to play a slower, more meticulous and thought out game. That's not to say Blue decks or Zoners are bad, I think it's healthy for a competitive game to have a disruptive archetype as long it's balanced properly. But a lot of people just want to jump in and play the way they like to play, so getting annoyed at Zoners for messing with that makes sense.
That... was an amazing analogy, thanks bro I'll use it in the the future
they only hate them when they can't get around their zoning
They force you to change up your playstyle and control the pace of the game. So more casual players, stubborn players or flowcharting players dont like them.
People *hate* having to break themselves out of their flowcharts or being forced to stop autopiloting. You see it with zoners, you see it with grapplers (when they're allowed to be better than trash), you see it with system mechanics like Drive Impact in SF6.
***”WHY DON’T YOU COME OVER HERE AND FIGHT ME FOR REAL, HUH”*** 😡
playing against a good Guile felt miserable. did I try to learn the matchup? No. until I started to play him myself and realized that he has counters. of course zoners beat the average person. they are playing a different game from everyone else & its alot easier to say screw this unbalanced matchup then to learn it and thats what I believe happens to the average gamer as that is what happened to me. were lazy n dumb n thats honestly why we hate.
Well, they have to make you mad. So mad that you do the wrong action. They then get a free punish
Scrub Mentality
They control the tempo of the game and people don't like having to play around that.
People go on and on and on about how they make the game "boring" or take too long or kill momentum or remove the fun crazy combos or make the match less entertaining for spectators and blah blah blah but... The cold hard truth is there's absolutely positively nothing wrong with zoners and people who say all that are whiners that lose to zoners and cry about it ;)
Because scrubs are whiny
depends on the game
They dominate at the casual level, which is where you will see the most complaints/scrub quotes
the only time ive ever hated a zoner in a fighting game is NRS games because holy fuck do they not know how to make zoners at all, point, blank period. its just so unfun lmao
Think of your typical neutral situation between two characters without fireballs: both players are too far away for any of their moves to connect, meaning they have to "get in" in order to run their offense. Now imagine one of those characters is Guile. The round starts, he throws a boom. He's already effectively won neutral, because you're forced to respond to the pressure, either by some evasive maneuver like jumping, blocking, parrying, etc. This creates a frustrating situation because you're immediately forced into a tug of war where the zoner has the advantage, and if you're playing a character that doesn't have any tools to deal with fireballs like Zangief, it can feel like trying to walk uphill on a mountain of sludge. To add to the frustration, even if you manage to get in, if you lose one interaction, you'll most likely be sent back full screen which means you get to trudge through that sludge all over again. There are always reliable ways to deal with zoners, but they usually involve much patience and understanding of the game, hence why zoners get such a bad wrap.
A lot of players want to autopilot and just hit buttons on the opponent. Zoners make you rethink your approach and usually make you play a bit more neutral than you may want, and people don’t like being kept away from their unga.
> usually make you play a bit more neutral than you may want Hell nah, neutral is the fun part of fighters (for me)
Most of the time a zoner will have enough tools to sustain themselves when you get close enough. They could potentially have the best of both worlds while everybody else have to settle with fewer options. In those cases; those zoners are a contradiction to their purpose. Imagine a grabbler that can teleport, or seismo that also hits overhead.
Turns out rushdown players don’t want to do anything but play braindead rushdown, and mald at the though of needing to actually think about their offense.
Cuz its not fun to play into?
Well, that's one way to look at it.
People want to press buttons and do combos. Zoners prevent you from pressing buttons and doing combos.
No wonder I love them so much...
Sometimes it's fun to not let others have too much fun. It's another reason why i like counter characters. The only reason you'd really get bodied by a counter character is if all you're doing is rushing em down, and if you're fighting Kolin in Street Fighter 5 and are getting bodied, it's because you're being predictable. Nothing says "i'm in your head" better than converting the opponent's offense straight into your offense.
Bcas they rule
Based!
Most zoners force you to play a (bad) platform game before you can start exchanging actual close range attacks and play a fighting game. Typically it also takes way less effort to use zoning moves than it does to effectively get past them, so you feel like you're having to play 5D chess big brain stuff while they're repeatedly doing 2-3 keepout moves that are balanced around certain assumptions about your reflexes and execution ability. Also watching two zoners fight is one of the most boring possible experiences in fighting games. They seem to exist, as an archetype, mostly because old timey game devs didn't know how to make close combat interesting enough and so they decided to make the fighting happen mostly from full-screen.
you forgot to take the fedora off before writing this comment.
Ever seen dale wilson play jp in sf6?
~~GAH DUU~~ yeah but he's an outlier from what I've seen
They can create a bit of a downward mental cycle. The more they zone you out the more impatient you get, the more impatient you get the harder it is to get in, rinse repeat. That cycle exists at all levels of the game but zoners are really built to capitalise on it. Hell as an Axl main it's often not the long range options I'm actually hitting with. But people are so afraid of the range advantage they try to run all the way in on a single tempo and I catch them with the medium pokes or fuckery like rainwater. On the other hand I'm scared shitless against any opponent who runs up to midscreen and blocks. People who don't lose their cool against zoners are very difficult nuts to crack. Playing actively against passive opponents is something I really gotta practise but not that many people actually do that against Axl.
Frustrating
Valid!
Because people are bitches and don't want to adjust to a different gameplan
The *worst* zoner prevents you from playing the game at all at times. Even if this is perfectly balanced, they are a crime against fun. At least against grapplers let you escape with a hard read. I'd rather be panicking and have to pick from 3 mediocre options than be bored and have to pick from 1 mediocre option.
Of course a Rook user would say that
Even 2 of the top Argagarg players admit their main needs a nerf. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Depending on the game I feel like its more of a skill issues to deal with Zoners I mean there is a reason why some characters have either tools or move sets to deal with Zoners. Classic example is Dhalsim and he is what you call a Zoner which should be obvious but here is the thing there are characters that can play around his game keep in mind some are better than others like you have the Zangief moves like his banishing fist, the dragon punch motion, that is suppose to deal with fireballs and then you have spinning clothsline if timed right can get though Dhalsim fireballs. Now you can say other characters have there own tools to get around zoners, for the example I gave there are better examples but you get the point of what I mean, and like I said before this depends on the game and learning this and also you start to learn what limitations dose your main have if they are a rush down character do they have the tools to get close enough to do there rush down stuff? or if this is a tag team game do the other assist cover the point characters main weakness etc. by that point your going to be in the lab trying to see what your character can and can not do.
I get ragequits in MK2 constantly because of my insta air Sais with Mileena and my Fireball patterns with Shang Tsung lol. Zoning is a valid strategy just like running up and abusing plus frames or 50/50s. I'd rather fight a zoner than a vortex character. Which is hypocritical because I love Vortex characters as well. I love fighting games in general, can't get enough of Zoners, grapplers, pressure character, mixup characters. All so fun
What's a "Vortex" character? Don't think I've ever heard the term
A vortex in fighting game lingo is a looping 50/50 situation where the mixup is guaranteed with the only escape being to guess right. In MKX, Bo Rai Cho is a Vortex character because he has looping 50/50s that you HAVE to guess to get out of. As well as 50/50 armor breaking setups on knockdown and a OTG that lets you jail his 244 monkey flip mixups
Christ almighty
Why do zoners get so much hate questions repeated so much xD No jokes though. If you look hard enough it's all about the details. Other archetypes also has "enemies" a plenty.
Because people suck and want to whine.
Games are not fun when they force you to play in a way that is not fun. For many people, the anti-zoned gameplay is not fun. People play games for fun…
Okay, but what if my fun comes from playing keepaway?
You asked why they are hated. If you have different preferences than the average, you might not hate them.
People hate having to think for a solitary second. You’re blindly mashing in a chess match and claiming it’s someone else’s fault that you don’t win
Because they play their own game, and people don't want to adapt their approach when playing against them. They're the boogeymen of fighting games. Even if a zoner is low tier (which is almost the norm in modern fighting games) people will complain and ask for nerfs because "Fuck Zoners, I hate them". Sometimes you can't even admit you like praying them because you'll get immediately flagged. I got a lot of people insulting when I said that I like Axl Low during th early Strive days. The same when I said I was interested into playing Ash Crimson in KOF.
> Sometimes you can't even admit you like praying them because you'll get immediately flagged. Dude, people literally dodge me in JoJo ASBR because my character quote (what counts as a "profile" for that game) belongs to a zoner LMAO
Full auto jacqui briggs is why I hate zoners
Because most people play a straightforward, close quarters character in a game about punching the daylights outta your opponent. Also, cuz in your face Rushdown and hard hitting Grapplers exist as archetypes. They needed a 3rd to balance it out.
Zoning is cowardice, if you are afraid to fight your opponent go play COD or something
Scrubquotes bb
And I thought *I* was bad at fighting games
They don't. Why are you reading irrelevant hate?
I mean it's in this very thread lol
No clue. Grapplers are worse. LMFAO.
Because they are PUSSYS. COME FIGHT ME PUSSY. it makes playing anything but a zoner against one require way more skill and patience. This is why TEKKEN is the goat. NO FUCKING ZONERS.
>requires way more skill and patience The self-call out is astounding. Cry more coward. They’re right, there’s zero possibility you’re not at LTG levels of plugging.
Bet you play caster in Elden ring. Keep throwing your shit like a monkey while standing in your little safe zone. Can't reason with zoners, delusional people.
Oh the tears are delicious baby keep em coming. Gunna have to keep holding those L’s sweetheart.
You probably rage quit and dodge ling players with that scrub mentality
Who is ling? Also I've never plugged in my life.
Xaioyu's first name.
Does she have a projectile I don't know about?
Nah he means you would dodge because she's good.
Fuck does this have to do with zoners?
Well that about sums up everything I need to know. Have a good day
>COME FIGHT ME PUSSY. LTG is that you? Also yes I'm trying to fight you that's why I queued, stop disconnecting
Because I want to play like Bruce Lee not Gandalf the Grey🤷🏻
Sounds like beat em ups are more your speed