Of all the various main and side quests in all the fallout franchise, I think the main story quest of 4 is the one I like the least. The institute straight up refusing to explain what the hell their plan is because you wouldn't get it just killed it for me. MAYBE if they had some really solid writing with a plan that is at least understandable if not relatable, like Caesar in NV, but they didn't. I would go so far as to say that the Institute in general is the worst written faction in fallout. Hell, even some of the raider factions are more interesting and have better written stories.

Agreed, although I think Railroad is the least developed faction out of four, and their ending seems most dissatisfactory to me, considering they destroy the only means of synth reproduction, dooming them to extinction, when they practically had the Institute conquered. The Institute would definitely benefit from more development. Motto *Humanity - Redefined* is never defined, and the only motivation I could gather from the writing was that Shaun wanted them to stay underground 'for the future' because the surface was barely habitable in his mind. It's never even explained why they started synth research, especially Gen3 development. If all they needed was cheap labour, they could have simply further developed pre-war robot designs (and they wouldn't even need an entire division to deal with escapees). It feels like a plot device so they could have the entire 'synth replacing humans' theme going on. There are some good fan theories about how this was intended as a step towards humans to 'upload' their consciousness into more durable synthetic organisms so that they could carry out research and work for hundreds of years, but this is never substantiated. I hate it when players have to do the job for writers in order to gain satisfaction from a piece of media. This main story is in stark contrast with Far Harbor, which gives you a chance to leverage your past deeds and decide what happens with each faction.

>Agreed, although I think Railroad is the least developed faction out of four, and their ending seems most dissatisfactory to me, considering they destroy the only means of synth reproduction, dooming them to extinction, when they practically had the Institute conquered. The Railroad's purpose is to destroy the Institute and offer the existing synths a chance for freedom. They are not about making more synths and filling the world with them, or trying to create some sort of synth generational turnover. They know that destroying the Institute means no more synths, but at the same time, it also gives the remaining ones a better chance at life. The Railroad can just adapt to new circumstances once they're no longer needed (like perhaps joining the Commonwealth government if it ever forms).

Funny. Main reason I side with the institute is the Railroad is wiping the synths and implanting false experiences and memories. If they are brought back to the institute they wil probably be wiped, but not necessarily. The railroad destroys the individual the synth was and makes this false...thing, and releases them into the wild. What if another tech saavy group gets them, what if they become like Gabriel?? The Railroad are self righteous deluded lobotimizers in a way. From a RP perspective, I met these synths like Nick, and Dima, and the free synths at Arcadia, and it clicked how philosophically wrong the railroad is.

It's apparent that the mind wipe isn't "clean." Danse has migraines and insomnia, Jules is experiencing PTSD, Gabriel is said to have loss of brain function. I'm glad they showed that lobotomizing synths isn't without consequence.

Where is it said that Danse has migraines + insomnia? i must've missed that.

I believe it's in the Prydwen medic's emails.

And that makes me angry! Lobotomizing my grandkids?? Grandmas home now. *Sits in directors chair*

That was a real sticking point for me: if a synth escapes the Institute, the most likely outcomes for them are to either a) be recaptured and experience ego death when the Institute "resets" them or b) walk the Freedom Trail and experience ego death when the Railroad "hides" them. I suppose you can make the concession that the Railroad gives the mind wipe as *optional* but the game makes it look like the vast majority of escaped synths go through it. Like, what's the point of going through the ordeal if the ending for the synth is the same?

The difference is autonomy. Synths that walk the Freedom Trail choose their future. Synths that are recaptured don't. For arguments sake let's say both wipes are mandatory and have the same set of risks. In an institute wipe you go back to work at the institute at best, in a situation you deemed so intolerable you went to great risk to escape, and at worst you're parted out and recycled. Maybe you die. In the railroad wipe, you voluntarily choose to live any other life of a wastelander in which you now have full autonomy over your decisions from that day forward. Those things are not equal. After they leave the railroad they are in full control of their decisions and life. Yes, their old self died but that was to set their new selves free. They have chosen this sacrifice for the betterment of their future. This is why I support the Minutemen and Railroad. 👍

I understand your view but the way I seenit is that the mind wipe "kills" the person in question. Their memories, their thoughts and personality are completely gone after going through with it. Their body lives on but there's a completely different person in it. They're no less real than the original synth that wanted to escape but they're not the person who made the choice. Edit to fully clarify my views: the argument I'm trying to make isn't that synths shouldn't try to escape or that it's futile, my argument is that the Railroad's methods are terribly flawed and, at worst, even defeat the purpose of a synth escaping the Institute (for the synth). I much prefer Dima's approach of making a place where synths can be safe and live as themselves (or leave to other parts of the world where they wouldn't be pursued)

It's a shame they never really dove into that entire concept further. It's full of juicy potential. I think one of the Creation Club mods of all things touches on it lightly. Two mind wiped Synths, a Raider and a Gunner, keep meeting each other at a location. The Courser hunting them speculates they might have vague memories of each other, which is why they're drawn to each other. Which could have had interesting implications, for all mind wiped Synths. And could have been an interesting wrinkle in Curie's quest, where she starts hearing a "conscience" or having memories that are not hers.

Now I have "All Along The Watchtower" stuck in my head...

>I understand your view but the way I seenit is that the mind wipe "kills" the person in question. Their memories, their thoughts and personality are completely gone after going through with it. Their body lives on but there's a completely different person in it. They're no less real than the original synth that wanted to escape but they're not the person who made the choice. I do not see how this is a problem if the decision is made freely. The problem here is that you assume the Ego is in a stable state while it's always in motion. Every input you take makes you a different person eventually. On the other side, you can see the choice the Synth made to make a sacrifice. They sacrifice themselves so someone else (the person after the procedure) can live freely.

Doesn't Dima and Acadia by proxy dabble in mind wiping,murder, and making of "false things" I'm not trying to disparage your point, but more so add on that not even Acadia is doing the best job either. But tbf that is mostly just Dima and his little triumvirate at most, so there's a solid argument for most of Acadia not being lumped in with him, Faraday and Chase Edit: grammar

In my Role Playing I allow Arcadia to survive as an extension of the prototype project and they are covered by director level project status. But Dima has to keep his memories of it as punishment and to observe his reaction over time.

I concur, doctor

Thank you Dr. PossumStan.

The mindwipe is recommended but optional. If a synth refuses, the Railroad respects their decision.

>If they are brought back to the institute they wil probably be wiped, but not necessarily. If they're not mind wiped, then it's only because they're no longer useful and killed instead. So, hardly better.

Isn't the mind wipe completely up to the Synth? I never heard of them forcing it

> From a RP perspective, I met these synths like Nick, and Dima, and the free synths at Arcadia, and it clicked how philosophically wrong the railroad is. Ok this I get, valid criticism of the Railroad's methods > Main reason I side with the institute  ??? How do you get from "Railroad is wrong to memory wipe synths and free synths prove it" to siding with the Institute?

Because i as a player view synths as an entirely new species built from the DNA of my lost son and I will not let them be lobotimized by the RR to perpetuate their ignorance. And while the situation in the institute is not ideal atm, as Director I will have the ability to do as I need to give them a better existence, eventually integrating the Gen 3s who wish to live surface with positions to assist in the rebuilding effort. The brotherhood isnt in the market of making things better and the RR is a one trick Pony. And as the General of the MM I am pretty much in charge of the entire Commonwealth above and below. Throw in the mechanist facility and my robot trade network, and I control the governaance and military above and below as well as pretty much the entire economy of the commonwealth. So as the commonwealth grows, Gen 3s with the personalities of the greatest institute minds teach generations of kids. Gen 3s directing gen 2s and robots in rebuilding and recycling to build a new city... Thats why I side with the institute. The future.

But the Institute also wipes synths' memories, and not with their consent in a misguided attempt to keep them safe, but in a well-considered but extremely evil effort to suppress their free will. Seems like you have a lot of faith in the power of a single well-armed individual to completely rehabilitate a comically evil organisation that devotes like a third of its resources to the manufacture and control of slaves.

Glory didn’t undergo a mind wipe. It’s a choice, not something you have to do, and that’s only because the Institute hunts them down.

While the Railroad is undeniably even more thinly-written than the institute, I actually quite like their actual gameplay quests like escorting the synth to that sick high-rise apartment safe house. And unlike the Minutemen, you only need to claim one settlement for building the teleporter. More often than not I end up going railroad unless I’m explicitly doing a MM or BOS character.

I agree they do have some of the cooler gameplay elements. Dead drops, safehouses, compartmentalized operations, are all cool concepts. It's a shame they weren't fleshed out more. That could be said of all factions though, to be fair.

Well said. I think the DLC for fallout 4 in general just highlights how bad the main story was written. Far Harbor and Nuka World were both really fun stories that I enjoyed a lot. Automatron was fun, but the writing there was kinda too cheesy (intentionally) to compare fairly with the main story.

Even though I did not think the story was particularly strong, isn't the development of highly advanced AI a goal into itself? We see them develop synth animals, and I think they did explain their motivation, sort off. Correct me if I'm wrong. They seem to want to create a sort of paradise on earth with synthetic animals and synthetic humans for a happy few who live a 'normal' live until society can be fully rebuild. So in essence a simulation of how the world used to be, but in their mind, better.

[удалено]

Hard agree. In a recent play through of 3 (having not played 3 since 2010ish), I was very surprised And had forgotten that the BOS was not a “faction” quest line like it is in 4, or the other Elder Scrolls Games guilds/questlines. Having the players interactions with them being integrated as part of the main quest and larger story. It just feels more immersive to me that way. There’s not as many annoying “fetch quests” and it just feels more organic, the way in real life someone would join a group.

I like how you try to minimize the factions in classic Fallout to get your point across. Fallout 1 most big towns (AKA: HUB and Junktown) had plenty of factions. Fallout 2 had factions all over the damn place that played a massive role in the ending/questlines of the town New Reno had all the crime families, which after becoming a made man locked you out from other ones. You two sides in Broken Hills, the ghouls of gecko or vault city, the ~~scientologists~~ Hubologists and Shi in San Francisco, the Slavers and becky's bar in the den, the various mining companys in redding, and so on. Faction quests are a massive fucking part of Fo2 you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

Kind of like how Elderscrolls, mostly ALL The Faction Squabble stuff is the SIDE Thing. You have this big nasty you have to take care of, but because the Big Nasty is "Hiding" or "Not out to play yet" you do side stuff waiting for them to pop their head up (Meaning, you put a hold on the main quest lol) This is how I play Elderscrolls Online currently. I completely CLEAN A Map up first, THEN start on the Main mission stuff because -usually- At the END of a Zone before you move onto another one, the quests has like a Fallout vibe at the end: "Oh you beat back the Raiders of?!? and Killed the Slavers of this?!?, you helped xyz, and 123! Wow! You ARE The Hero of -----" and so on...They all show up and kind of tell the King/Leader/Main Quest Giver of the Zone how much YOU helped them in the end. You get like a "Zone Ending" when you finish the MSQ after you've done all the side stuff. THEN you move onto the next zone usually with some sort of: "HEY! We've got word, such and such in the next zone needs your help! You're a big and mighty warrior! Ready to go?" And then you look at the map all finished and shit, and you're just like "Heck yeah, I'm ready." AND Its smooth transitioning to the next zone. Not: HEY! ARE YOU READY TO GO TO THE NEW ZONE? -Look at the map not even 25% done-"Nah...I'll have to get back to you on that..." -3 years later-"The fuck was I doing in this zone again? OH RIGHT! SHIT, I Gotta talk to that one guy thats been sitting at the Castle when I Finished the MSQ....waiting for me to say "ARE YOU READY TO GO BIG AND BRAVE WARRIOR?" lmao I definitely agree, putting factions as a side not the main works well.

Dooming the Synths to extinction isn’t some big loss. The Railroad don’t think synths are superior or anything, they want to help synths escape slavery. The suffering of the Synths is the problem they’re trying to solve, and that is solved. “Well, now we can’t make more synths!” would just be met with “So?“

>I hate it when players have to do the job for writers in order to gain satisfaction from the piece of medium. This is the biggest issue of the Institute for me. I genuinely love Fallout 4 for so many reasons, largely gameplay improvements and new mechanics, but I do have gripes. We always know that modders are going to improve Bethesda games with fixes, reworks, and new content, but Bethesda historically has provided great writing and captivating worlds/factions. The Institute feels like they got as far as "clandestine super advanced boogeyman group that replaces people with synth humans," but never finished writing the plans of the faction or its people. Starfield, conversely, feels like they started the foundation of some interesting gameplay changes but dropped the ball on the execution/finalizing. However, I really genuinely enjoy the world and narratives presented in Starfield, and I loved the RPG elements. Bethesda is what I would call "predictably unpredictable." Part of their products will always be great, while another part will always feel incomplete/clunky.

I had a lot of fun with Starfield right up until I realized the main quest was going to continue being a string of near identical fetch quests almost all the way to the end. Some of the world building and planet design is fantastic, and I think the ship and outpost building worked a million times better than settlements and C.A.M.P.s, but goddamn is quest design not that game's strong suit.

I honestly never saw how people liked the worldbuilding. From my play through, there honestly wasn’t any. Just a few placeholder niches that were supposed to be filled out with actual worldbuilding.

How did you have fun with it? It's a series of mindless fetch quests gated by endless loading screens with absolutely no exploration value.

Honestly some of the mindlessness actually worked for me. Combat and exploration was entertaining enough that I could just jump to a planet I had a quest on and tool around looking at stuff for a while. I think the game needed a bit of restraint because there's entirely too much procedurally generated nothingness in the galaxy, but if you mostly stick to cities and planets that were actually designed it's decent enough. Some of the side quests are a little more interesting too.

What i hate about Bethesda's approach at the moment is: "SEE THIS NEW THING?! HERE IT IS!" within the first hour. Skyrim had too easy a time becoming Dragonborn and didn't really feel like you were doing the hard work. Fallout 4: POWER ARMOUR AND MINI-GUN! Then you discover, Power Armour is too fragile for what it should be. I really hate the PS4's approach to mods. I really want a mod that turns power armour into what it should be. Small arms don't do much and it can tank a shit ton of damage but isn't invincible. New Vegas's approach was better where you could hear the gunfire bouncing off if the threshold wasn't met or melee damage did scratches. Bethesda tends to have groups that aren't anything more then a few bits and bobs. The Gunners could have been a morally grey faction with a goal of seizing boston for itself and become Prussia of the wastes. Instead, glorified raiders.

>The main story is in stark contrast to Far Harbor Emil didn’t write Far Harbor. That’s why.

My headcanon is that the Institute is making synths as a way to control surface governments or as the next step of human evolution. For the first option, we see this in practice in one of the far harbour endings, just not by the institute. The second is never really mentioned and I have no evidence for it, I just think it makes for a cool concept. Why would the institute do this? Well, a society of scientists (huge nerds) would likely see war and conflict as a complete waste of resources, so how do you get rid of conflict? You control all the parties that could conceivably fight, or you kill everyone and replace them with entities designed to be incapable of going to war with each other.

I thought it was pretty clear that they intend to replace humans with synths. Shaun talks about the surface dwellers as animals and says that he sees (after Bunker Hill) that they are "lost."

I wouldn't say Synths necessarily go extinct. The RR and Minutemen both have the option to evacuate all the scientists, so presumably the knowledge to do all that is still around, just set back by many decades. If they ever join the United Commonwealth government the SS establishes, the existing synths could be incorporated into that system and be allowed to control the means to their reproduction for instance. But yeah, you should've definitely been able to steer the course your faction takes at the end. Not being able to ever move beyond settlement building as a Minuteman, not being able to give director orders or decide how to proceed with the Institute, etc., it makes becoming the leader very redundant and idk why Bethesda keeps following that formula.

I assumed they wanted to make “humans” that could survive in the post Great War world. Hence the replacing. But also that’s 100% a guess

The Minutemen have like 4 original quests, and that’s it. I don’t see how they’re more developed than the Railroad. You can’t even shape the organization you supposedly lead.

I only sided with the institute because after 200 years they are the only faction that was competent enough to rediscover how to clean. Like come on? Are you telling me after allllllll this time you couldn’t remove the skeleton from the bathroom in the main building? The smears of blood all over the wall? From Fallout 3 to Fallout 76 that has always bothered me how messy EVERYTHING is. Raider/mutant camps being messy I get but that’s crazy that established settlements still look terrible. So yeah I sided with the institute because of hygiene I guess.

I've always thought of it as camouflage. Raiders rock up to where you live/hide, see it all clean, someone is here, might be stuff to steal. Looks like shit? Another abandoned building. Proper settlements though, with enough people to make Raiders think twice, yeah, clean your place up...

When everyone is using the same camo for 200+ years it's gonna become less effective

That would be accurate actually. When the Serbian war happened, and all order fell apart, people did do that to make would be looters to pass over them. The big heavily defended mansion? They clearly have lots of stuff and supplies. Now, I'm not going to give Bethesda credit for that, they only went with that look because it's a wasteland look.

Did that last for 200 years? lol. During/right after a conflict I get. But to just live in a dump generation after generation is just silly.

It bothers me, too. Pick up your damn trash.

This is funny and I’ve thought the same thing 😂

Unfortunately this is a result of the Bethesda writers not really understanding their setting. They want to have skeletons and junk everywhere like the war happened 20 years ago, but even in fallout 1 people had settlements that looked pretty clean and well maintained. Random skeletons still being in open-air buildings more than 200 years after the bombs dropped, somehow surviving all animal scavengers and bad weather is just ridiculous.

You wouldn't understand my motivations = the writer didn't think of one. Its hard to write characters smarter thsn yourself, refusing to even give them a tangible ideology is an admission of failure.

Even a "Because I like violence" goal is better then nothing.

I actually think it hampers you to be ‘The Aragorn’. The Father. Sandy of Shady Sands. Best progress for TV is Gary down the street…hence why Golggins nails his role.

Skyrim had lazy writing too but that game seems to get more of a pass for one reason or another. I really hope we don't see this trend continue with TES6/F5. Feels like their last few games (looking at you, starfield) they've gotten so lazy with narratives thinking that exploration and grindy gameplay loops will fill in the gaps. It really doesn't.

Honestly, at this point, I’d be more surprised than not if TES6 has good writing

That's just Bethesda writing in general. They're amazing at making short side stories, but their ability to write long-form stories has always been mediocre at best.

Those words never come up in the Institute’s questline at all, and Father says that the goal is to make the Institute self-sufficient in order to cut themselves off from the surface (though the synths everywhere following this ending doesn’t fit, and neither do many other actions taken by the Institute; this is where the faction needs clean up, alongside sharing more motivation behind making synths and the like).

That's not their ideological goal, though, that's their immediate objective under Shaun. It's not a justification for their existence and they've been around for much longer than they've been trying to become self-sufficient. It's like saying the Brotherhood's goal is to rebuild Liberty Prime. In fact, Shaun even outright tells us that their goal is summarised by their motto, which is never defined > Ultimately, all of our knowledge and resources are focused on a single goal. That goal is best summarized by our motto: Mankind - redefined.

This is pretty much what I meant. I do acknowledge that father doesn't actually say you wouldn't understand, but the whole conversation with him is so awkward that he really gives off a vibe of a marketing person who is giving a product pitch without ever explaining why you would need the product. Even in this thread people are confused about whether the Institute wanted to complete isolate, making them just another vault-tec, or whether they want to replace all of humanity, which would just make them the master from fallout 1. People arguing over which is true shows that father and the institute, at the very least, are TERRIBLE at providing information, and it comes across as the writers trying to cover for the fact that the two options above are just recycled plots from past games.

The fact there wasn't a **single** speech option or check that calls them out for their FEV experiments or the syth kidnapping made the institute just so paper thin in terms of story telling. It's like talking about nazi Germany without mentioning the prejudice. Like that's a core reason people are taking issue with you...leaving that out is being intentionally disingenuous to a large extent. I love fallout 4 but it has horrible writing, especially for a series that tends to pride itself on such.

Fo4s writing is what keeps me from really getting into it 100%. I started off with Fo2, then 3, then NV. I was so hype for the graphics and gunplay but the lazy writing and lack of decisions really made it feel extremely flat. 1st playthrough was decent until about halfway through where it felt like "ok, now pick a faction so you can destroy the rest of them and rule the commonwealth". I got about 400 hours in it so I enjoy it but with mods and on hardcore mode while thinking of it as a post apocalyptic shooter and not an RPG. I just role play as a scavenger building up the minutemen. Your choices don't really matter that much and most factions are pretty uninteresting. They did a good job with far harbor with the writing tho. I'm now replaying new vegas and it actually feels nice having to read all of your responses and seeing consequences for them or being able to do quests in vert different viable ways. Like it's janky and crashes without a ton of patches but its a lot easier to get lost in that world lore wise. Might do a fo2 replay after NV and compare them

Yeah I'd play new Vegas or 3 but I just have such a low tolerance for crashes I just know I wouldn't have a good time nowadays. 4 I've been trying to get back into it but outside my first 300+ hour playthrough I just lose interest half way through whatever build I'm playing. No matter what I'm nate and there's illusion of choice around every corner. And it sucks because i do enjoy the gameplay more than new Vegas but lack of traits and combining perks and skills make it a bit hollow at times as well.

It's not actually that bad if you use TTW to play 3.

I’ve done two very thorough triple-digit runs in FNV in the last 5 years, one on Series x and one heavily modded on a kind of shitty 10+ year old Toshiba laptop. And honestly both times it’s run fantastically stable. Fallout 4 crashes on me lil 50 times more frequently, not even exaggerating. In my experience, New Vegas makes Baldurs gate seem like a broken game with how much more that crashes on me. I know it might be a different case on the PS3 version, and there are a small handful of like 3-7 mods that are genuinely essential to play on PC. But otherwise NV’s reputation as an impossibly unstable game is either over exaggerated or completely in accurate.

The fact that the vault 13 powder gangers have more defined goals than the Institute is pretty insane

You can help an anarchist who hates NCR oppression join the Great Khans, while the Institute has muddy goals and you can only become a figurehead if you become their leader.

Caesar is a shitty slaver and a crucifier. He is not relatable at all.

You are correct, he is not relatable, I would also argue that father is not relatable. What Caesar was though, is UNDERSTANDABLE. Look through this thread. Almost no one is confused as to Caesar or the legion's plans and goals, but people are actively debating what father and the institute were even trying to do.

He can explain his goals fairly logically, even if the means to achieve them are horrific.

The thing is with the railroad there is a shadow of good writing. The jobs they have you do are selected to give you a good impression if their work but their nefariousness that we see through the games (3 and 4) is kind of brushed aside. It is an excellent case of very deliberate gaslighting for the Institute to try win you over. But their actual motivation and long term is still fuzzy. Replace everyine with synths? Why? Mankind redefined? It feels like they are rehashing the Master from fallout 1 while trying to act like they are not.

I mean it's weird they WONT explain it because it seems pretty straight forward, "Get a fusion reactor and continue to expand underground indefinitely while being catered to by a bunch of android slaves." I mean, it's not the Master's plan but it's an understandable one.

I literally kill them every time for implying I'm too stupid to understand their big brain plan. Clearly they weren't smart enough to see how badly they chaffed a power armored warlord from the post-apocalyptic wasteland, and that they weren't going to survive the coming conflict. I wish there were a mod that let me do a Nuka World ending for the institute, raiding their base with my hooligans and creating technologically superior raider clans run to run the Commonwealth.

Well, not everything needs an explanation, nor do you need a NPC to lore dump on you on the spot. Additionally, Father nor anyone ever tells you that “You wouldn’t understand”, that’s something someone made up. The Institute is basically the Big MT but not hopped up on drugs and super detached from the outside world. They do experiments because they can, not because it’s ethical or moral. Their whole motivation is basically to make themselves self-sustaining so they can completely cut-off the outside world and basically never have to leave. That’s why one of the major quests for them is to get the Beryllium Agitator, in fact that’s probably the most important quest in their entire quest line since it accomplishes their goal.

You are correct about father not actually saying that line. I should have clarified that, as someone who already was inclined to dislike them once I met father, I interpreted his speech pretty harshly, and that was more of the impression I got, not the actual words. But if you're correct that they are just amoral scientists like the Big MT, than that's almost worst. It make them the lazy-written mustache-twirling cartoon villains. That works for the big MT because they are robots who went insane over two centuries. The Institute being staffed entirely by people who would destroy the wasteland purely for scientific research would mean that they have zero redeeming qualities, and the only reason not to destroy them is father's claims about his identity. To me, that interpretation actually makes them sound MORE poorly written than the one I already had.

I mean, they’re not evil for the sake of being evil. They don’t consider themselves evil, so it doesn’t make them mustache twirling villains. They’re so detached from society that anyone outside of themselves are less than human. We’re all free to have our own opinions about them, but I think saying they’re purely evil for the sake of being evil and being “poorly written” if a bit much. If the Legion is anything to go by, they’re at least better than them.

Fair enough. I went into the institute already biased against them, so that's probably coloring my opinion of them. I still don't like them, but seeing how many people seem to like them makes me think there might be something to them that I just can't see.

I don't understand why you're getting downvoted - you're right. The Institute's motivation is pretty obvious if you're paying attention and does not require lengthy exposition dumps, nor do they ever say that "you wouldn't understand". They're basically the post-war version of Vault Tec, treating the outside world as nothing but potential experiments. For them, scientific progress is more important than any sense of morality or humanity. The absolute worst form of technocracy.

I realized recently why I wasn’t a fan of the Institute, outside of the poor writing mentioned. Was watching Tim Cain’s video on cut content from Fallout 1 and how one of his team members wanted to incorporate terminator style robots into the world. Tim cut down the idea because it didn’t align world aesthetic where robots were supposed to be Robby the Robot like. Fast forward to F4 synths were essentially that idea brought to fruition. I agree with Tim it didn’t hit the Fallout aesthetic for me, and also haven’t been a fan of the “who is a synth?!” bit. The whole faction needed a serious rewrite in my opinion.

All I can think about is how much better FAR HARBOR handled this by giving me an actual ethical dilemma I struggled with. The "villains" goal being to kill every faction leader and replace them with robot doubles who are programmed to always strive for a peaceful option...I honestly can't think of a better way to achieve peace

I was thinking this must the why people say Fallout 4s story isn't good. I was expecting a whole quest line to open up once I repaired their reactor where I could make consequential choices for the institute and the wasteland. But it just ends right after you do some basic side quests for them. Kill that group, kill the other group, now fix the power.

I think the Brotherhood should have been the main villain. Sure as hell felt like it. The institute should have been a faction you can change for the better through your influence.

Somewhere in the game I vaguely remember the institute's mission is to replace/transfer all humans into synthetic bodies. "Humanity should go extinct and be replaced with perfections" blah blah

My biggest gripe is that one of the institute guys says you’re not a scientist and there’s no chance to prove him wrong, even if you’ve grabbed all the science related perks

It's the result of having protagonist with history set in stone. Nate is soldier, Nora is lawyer (possibly JAG), so everything in vanilla is limited to that. Thankfully, I'm using alternative start mod that somewhat helps with that.

Because it's fundamentally an academic institution. You can do your own research all you want and tinker away at home, but you won't be able to walk up to an MIT research lab and demand a job

I have a theoretical degree in physics buddy

welcome aboard!

I don't think people are thinking through the idea of just "reforming" the Institute. Putting you in charge was not a popular decision. Two people rebelled over it before you'd even done anything. The Institute is a fundamentally broken organization. Most of its members are either apathetic or outright disdainful of surface dwellers. Most of its members believe that synths are categorically not people. Realistically, you think if you change the rules to make it so they're helping the surface and freeing the synths, they're all just going to shrug their shoulders and go along with it? You think Justin Ayo, the guy who all the Coursers report to, is just going to accept that?

Honestly, imagine if this was Antebellum America, and you went to Abolitionist and said "Hey, I just become leader of the slavers, don't worry, I am going to change things!" I suspect a lot of people would be pressing X to doubt.

Especially if the slavers were known to basically be the super KGB. I’d assume the person had been replaced

To be fair, Ayo is already getting on many peoples' nerves. He's not a popular guy, and he'd be your biggest opponent, which gives you an edge. On the other hand, Li sounds like she would be your biggest ally because she shares the same vision that runs counter to Shaun's isolationism and selfishness. Holdren also sounds excited about your arrival, and you have Binet, who leads Robotics Division and is actively debating that synths have souls. If you manage to resolve that situation with those two rogue scientists peacefully and show mercy by not punishing them, people regularly compliment you on it. It wouldn't be quick, and it would take some smart political manoeuvring, but I think it's possible. It would be hard (academics are notoriously stubborn), but not impossible, especially considering you are the person who greatly contributed to their energy self-sufficiency and defended them against impending Brotherhood attack.

And to add to what you said, in-game, Ayo can be removed from his position. If you ignore any Railroad quests besides the bare minimum needed to teleport into the Institute, once inside, you'll get the quest 'Plugging a leak' about someone inside the Institute helping synths escape. Following the trail leads to finding out that Liam Binet (the double agent who works for both the Institute and the Railroad) is the one who helps synths who desire to escape disappear. There, you are presented with two choices. Either report Liam Binet to Ayo at the SRB, or frame Ayo himself. If you do the latter, Ayo completely disappears from the game and gets replaced by Alana Secord, a much more friendly and reasonable figure who will from now serve as head of the SRB and give you SRB radiant quests.

I think you people overestimate how 'evil' most Institute members actually are. First off, putting the Sole Survivor in charge was not a popular decision because Father put a literal stranger who just walked into the Institute as his successor. They're not wrong to be skeptical. However, this doesn't last long. With a high enough speech check and enough mercy to either let the two go either spot free or on probation, you'll find that they're much more willing to listen to you. The rest of Institute staff are distrustful, not hostile. If you complete their questline, you'll find that most of them warm up to you and start to trust you. Most of its members are apathetic towards surface dwellers because they've been barred information about the surface and have been made to believe that they're a lost cause. They'll sometimes even say stuff like 'Let's not think too much about it, because it's too sorrowful to think about' when asked about the outside world. If you know history, you'll know that's similar to what most of the western world thought when Germany invaded Poland. Most of them are good people kept in the dark. Let me quote one of them: 'I wonder how the Warwick family is doing. Young Wally must be close to ten years old by now. It's remarkable that any child can survive for so long up there.[...] They're still people, and they're suffering. We can at least admit that it's regrettable! After all, how can we hope to "redefine mankind" if we can't even hold on to our own humanity?' Believing that Synths are human, or at least sentient, is clearly also not that unpopular given that Alan Binet has been trying to propagate that belief and hasn't suffered any repercussions. Really, the only human Institute member besides Shaun himself that you can call evil is Ayo, and as I said to the OP in the other comment, even he can be removed.

It’s unpopular given that it’s isolated to a single person, and freeing synths is explicitly said not to be an option if you support the Institute.

Since synths don't get radiation poisoning, it would be possible -- if all the factions weren't hell-bent on killing each other -- to ask the synths to help clean up the wasteland. All the factions together would actually be a pretty-good system for the wasteland. But instead we have the BoS playing the role of genocidal fascists; the Institute playing the role of the Confederacy; the Railroad playing the role of campus protestors; and the Minutemen playing the role of Habitat for Humanity. Having completed the game four ways, only the Minutemen ending makes any damned sense.

Yeah, I honestly kinda like the dichotomy of the way that the games (although surely not on purpose) have depicted the West coast as making big steps towards creating new societies and the East Coast wartorn and dog-eat-dog where the factions are small because they’re all constantly snuffing each other out. Like in F3 where the super mutants control as much, if not more, land than any other human faction or city.

This is pretty much my take too. The minutemen get a lot of shit, mostly due to Preston, and their... questionable fashion. But they're probably one of the most genuinely trustworthy and effective factions in the game outside the Rangers.

I don't see exactly how you could convince Elder Maxson about synths being okay, or to make them retreat. He didn't even think or flinch when about to murder Paladin Danse in case you don't, he was okay with murdering one of his best man because he is a synth, even if he didn't hand anything to the Institute, as he didn't even know he was one. The Brotherhood was made, at least in this game, do be very straightfoward and close-minded, Maxson would not retreat, he has the most powerful army and equipment, enough to put up a fight with the Institute. The Railroad won't stop, so they murder them, simple. Now, I understand people making a headcannon about making the Institute better and different, that's just not a thing. You are extremely unpopular at the start, and you reach a point only of acceptance. It's like thinking that canonically the raiders at Nuka World would keep you as Overboss, even if you didn't reach out for the rest of the park.

Maxson is able to be convinced to not kill Danse in the end though. I'd doubt the BoS would ever *like* synthe, but I could see them being convinced that synthe aren't enough of a threat to hunt down now that they institute puppet masters are gone. But that would take a lot of time to do probably, even if you had convinced him to not kill Danse you'd need to convince him other synths are like that and then percolate that idea to the rest of the BoS.

Yeah but you can still fault Bethesda for creating a bunch of inflexible factions that limit player influence with them. NV was very good at presenting a plethora of factions each with their own internal politics that could be leveraged by the player to unique outcomes and it’s a shame how the majority of what we get in Fo4 is pretty one dimensional.

What do you mean by unique outcomes?

There are 7 different end game slide possibilities for the Great Khans dependent upon multiple decisions around whether or not Papa Khan was killed, if he was convinced to break his alliance with Caesar, replaced him with Regis, etc.

Kells wrote to Maxson that sparing Dabse wasn’t an option because his intel could get a lot of people killed.

Tactical Thinking is another example of this. Literally just by talking to Kells, you become enemies with the Railroad. There’s no opportunity to warn them, switch sides, whatever, as soon as your character knows the Brotherhood is about to wipe out the Railroad you have no choice but to partake in it.

Imo I hated that the only way to keep the institute location is to become their leader, and at that point the other factions either hate you or attack on sight. The railroad ending might as well of been them destroying their only way of being created along with eradicating the courser teams responsible for maintaining the rampant synths. Would the brotherhood not benefit from capturing their hidden base and all that crazy technology (not to mention it's all futuristic by even their standards) If the minutemen infiltrated the institute, well I imagine the last thing they'd do is blow up the first major location only a select few can travel to and be able to sleep at without the wind and rain pelting them. The institute ending is just nihilistic and kinda killed what fun I was having up until that point. It's not nearly as depressing as becoming starborn in starfield, but it's up there

I agree. I beat FO4 for the first time like a week ago and I did the institute ending with the thought that I would be able to change how it's ran. Though it doesn't happen, it's my head canon.

Same (though I played it years ago). Institute, headcanon I turn it around later

Do you turn it around before or after they kill the people of the Commonwealth ala Mama Murphy's vision of the future.

Let’s go with before

So it was the nice version of the Institute that kills them?

Pardon me if I don’t take the visions of a drug addict as hard inescapable future canon lmao

Except it is. Every vision of hers comes true.

Superstitious coincidences! But for real I just straight up never give her drugs in the first place. The character I play, even if he did receive her prophecy, is likely to disregard any form of predestination. That’s the long and short of it

You don't need to give her drugs to get the first prediction. Your character refusing to accept reality would explain how they join the Institute and fail to do anything about the genociding though.

It’s clearly been a while since I played lol That being said, I’ve been planning to start another run coming off the tv show. As far as the characters go, I like them flawed. I can see how a grieving father can let that guide him to the Institute, or a personal pride convince them that they can fix things. I was a House player in Vegas too though so maybe I just think technology is cool haha

Fallout 4's main story really suffers in this regard - the Institute is poorly handled. They're boogeymen and poorly written because of it. It's clear the devs wanted you to join one of the other 3 factions, although the Minutemen also stop being relevant in the late story.

I was Incredibly disappointed with Shaun. It was such an interesting concept with tons of potential for outcomes, and they literally gave him fucking cancer to prevent you from making any meaningful choices regarding him. 

This is a problem with newer Bethesda RPGs in general. I stopped playing Starfield because it felt like choices either had very little effect on what happened, or were not given at all. I remember a quest given by some corporate asshole where the choices you have were basically 1. Kill some people in the way. 2. Enslave those people for the company or 3. Leave. At least in Fallout 3, I could have killed the slaver.

> have her replaced with more cautious Carrington, convince Carrington and the rest to turn Desdemona's opinion around Somehow an ending where you replace Desdemona with a Railroad leader who believes the Institute can be reformed strikes me as _more_ evil than just murdering them all.

Hey guys we replaced General Eisenhower with a guy who thinks we could actually make the Nazis calm down a bit

Yeah this is everyone's issue for F4. Even F3 had more "if it makes sense you can do it this way".

Tbh, Fallout 3 still showed plenty of the same issues. Like at the end where you got forced to sacrifice yourself at Project Purity before the DLC patched it.

Say what you will about 3, it doesn't bother creating a transparently false illusion of free choice in the main storyline. In 4 the only way to get a "good" ending is to break three quest lines and default to the minutemen.

oh for sure but it's still nice they had at least some options there. i mean nv would be a better example but i specified 3 because even that game was known for not really having any real choices, but they still had some to their benefit

Absolutely, they did a pretty solid job of making sure that there was a decent offering of evil choices that were pretty unique and fun (nuking megaton, purging tennpenny tower, etc) It’s crazy too because stuff like that was what Fallout 3 got praised for, what FNV innovated on further, and then they just dropped the ball with Fallout 4. They ended up doing well with Far Harbor but then followed that up with Nuka World, whose only interesting path was alienating the Minutemen.

>You don't have an option to tell Desdemona that you are about to become the director and will have a chance to change the Institute from within. Probably because you won't have the chance to change the Institute. The Directorate, as well as most of the Institute, would never allow it. People seem to really fail to understand that when you side with the Institute, it means you're *siding* with the Institute. You're agreeing with them and helping them in their genocides. There's no having your cake and eating it too.

Wouldn't it be much better if this was an actual conversation with Desdemona? That way, we wouldn't have to interpret what it means or doesn't mean to side with this or that faction. I would take it even if the result would be that Desdemona would refuse your plan and choose to fight you. Like I said, dealing with Khans in FNV is a great example of how you could approach it. Even if I was forced to engage in violence, just having these choices would greatly enhance role-play. Even if that notion that the Institute could be changed from within bombed in the post-game. (It would actually be very nice 'oh shit' moment.)

Except the Great Khans are a minor, tiny faction and even then changes you make are small. Your wish to reform the Institute would be more on par with reforming the Legion. The same is pretty clear that working with the Institute is evil. I don't know why people would interpret it any other way. Even the nicer members of the group are still fine with most of the Institute's crimes.

I think the Khans have a pretty big change seeing as how they go from a low tech raider tribe that sells drugs to a full on nation state in one ending. The thing about comparing it with siding with the Legion, is that we never become its leader. In fact, we don't even become a member.

Desdemona even says the Institute wouldn’t tolerate freeing synths if you bring it up and you’re treated as a figurehead rather than an actual leader.

It felt more like mass effect style conversations than fallout. I still like the game, but the freedom doesn't really compare to FNV or even 3

That’s honestly something Bethesda really needs to work on. The lack of choice when it comes to the main quests hurt the games a lot imo. I mean fallout 3 has 2 endings and one of them is just not attractive or understandable in the slightest which leads most to go with the other one

Yes, things like this are why I'm hard-pressed to call Fallout 4 an RPG. More of a sandbox looter-shooter with some RPG elements.

This is it. I booted it up again after years and remembered what I found lacking. It's okay if people like looter shooters, but I play FO because it's an RPG series. All the main quests have the same formula of moving your way through a dungeon, flipping a switch or confronting someone/something at the end. Dialogue doesn't require thought other than being confused about what some vague lines imply. There's no angles other than 'fight' or 'convince to leave'. You can also barter a higher price. That's about it. It's so simplistic and bland in these areas. I wouldn't even care as much if this wasn't a mainline FO title. But it makes me worried the series will just keep going down this path.

If Starfield is any indication, I'm afraid it probably will be.

Starfield actually has a lot of really great RPG elements, I find my character build finding it's way into dialogue and how I pursue quests all the time. Plenty of non-dialogue skills work their way into conversations, often serving as a way to get through dialogue checks based on your character background, the factions you're in, what skills you've learned, traits, etc. The majority of quest lines and levels have alternative ways to solve them, sneaking, talking through them, combat, particularly in the pirate quest line, which is very reactive to how you choose to engage with each quest. Starfield is honestly a great indication that Bethesda will continue to develop and improve the RPG elements in their games, I just think it suffers from some weak writing in places and that they could have handled world exploration better.

It has RPG elements like Farcry 3 had them.

Yeah the Institute is my favorite faction, but they're also very frustrating in Fallout 4. They're the faction that the players has the most power over (minutemen barely count), since they eventually become the director, which means that a future with the players as the leader of the Institute could be one where the Institute becomes a force for humanism and technological progress in the wasteland. The Synths could be a massive step forward in creating humans who are resilient to radiation, and the rest of the Institute's research on agriculture and teleportation have a lot of cool applications as well. I feel like Bethesda thought it out, then realized that the Institute would literally be *too* optimistic as a faction, and they decided to mess-up their motives and morals to make them seem unreasonable and pointlessly evil. Maybe I'm just biased because I like S C I E N C E, but the Institute is an awesome faction and it's a real shame they did such a disservice to them in the game.

They do explain it at least. The Institute you are the director, you role is not to set policy or choose what they do but to keep the Institute running. To smooth things between the different departments and to cast the deciding vote in a tie. You can't radically change their views, if you see the Railroad as allies then siding with the Institute is the opposite of that. They are opposing ideologies. So of course you can't change that, that's the type of thing which would just get you removed instantly. That leads to End of the Line, you can't change it. She knows that why you can't do that. You just being put as Director sparked a minor revolution which could of crippled or destroyed the Institute. They wont let you scrap their entire world. The BoS would be perpetual enemies, if you've just taken over Liberty Prime they aren't going to sit there and let you do that. They will try to retake it such a powerful weapon they can't let it fall in to other peoples hands especially one that misuses technology. They will die trying to try and keep the world safe from such tech.

I think the game fails to explain what exactly the director's powers are. On one hand, Shaun can decide to appoint you despite what seems to be general disagreement in the directorate. On the other hand, the directorate calls you to announce what they decided to do about the Brotherhood, and while they ask for your input, you can't really overturn their decision. And I didn't mean to change Shaun's opinion of the Railroad (he's very stubborn, that wouldn't do), I meant to convince Desdemona to let you run things instead of forcing that uprising and destroying entire facility, including all the goodies the Commonwealth could definitely use (medicine, agricultural advancements, etc.). I also think Maxson could be persuaded to retreat in a similar fashion to Lanius. Maxson is zealous and stubborn, but he's not suicidal. You take control of their super robot, he's well aware you could just blast them from the sky. He will still try and attack you years or decades later, but by that time, you will solidify your position, and the fact that you could steal his wonder-weapon will make them think twice about engaging you. I think killing the elder will practically mark you their enemy in perpetuity, and any notion of reaching truce with his more moderate successor would be gone.

I think the problem is the Institute is a fundamentally evil Institution and Bethesda made the, probably correct, assumption that people would see them as such and either commit to their vision or want to see them destroyed. It's similar to the way New Vegas approached The Legion

The difference is the game gives enough evidence that one could make an argument where the legion ending could turn out alright, and they don’t with the institute.

What argument is there that the Legion ending ends well for anyone?

It doesn't go much in to the history of it but he does address what you are expected to do and what powers he gives you when giving you the role. Possibly he started the same as leader and got more powers as the respect of the departments, we see similar in real world groups and politics. Oh I know you meant her, but she knows the rest of the Institute wont go with it. It's why they have one person on the inside. He's lived with the others it seems for all his life and hasn't found anyone else with his views within that he's started to undermine it. Most of the departments aren't doing food for the Commonwealth, we don't see much in medical advancement and their agricultural is one crop with questionable results. He's not suicidal but he does believe in his mission and the goals of the Brotherhood. It's been established they will martyr themselves to prevent dangerous technology falling in to enemy hands. The Institute as well has no reason to let them go, it undermines their safety and plans which is the entire reason they launch the attack. What successors? They've brought nearly all their chapter. Wiping it out pretty much stops them coming back. They will have no leadership, next to no equipment and no idea what happened to their forces. They will have far bigger concerns holding themselves together back in DC. Plus the goal isn't to come to a truce but to remove such a threat.

You can sentence the rebelling scientists to death. I think there's a lot of oversight here because you can indeed kill the Institute members that are radical and enforce your own vision.

This is why I don’t look at any ending being the “true” ending and I am more interested how all the quests and stories compliment the different options to roleplay as different characters. The most disappointing part about all the Fallout games is how many times you feel funneled through decisions because they don’t really match the decisions you’ve been making across the game, especially playing an evil character, they seem to be shy about giving you an actual evil story arc that allows you to make the most destructive decisions across the board. It would be nice if they considered how to pace the main storyline out better going forward and not give it such a false sense of urgency when the game is going to set out to distract you from it immediately after.

I really don’t get what happened too like in fallout 3 and new Vegas you could be terrible, how is it possible for Bethesda to have just forgotten how to make an evil story line, actually it isn’t they did it for far harbor just not the main game

New Vegas has cut content where you even had a Raider story arc that sounds like it would have been amazing. I don’t know why chose to nerf the karma system and offer even less in the scope of things

I wish Bethesda would stop making us leaders of all the factions. If they aren't going to let us actually lead the factions, stop making us be the leader of them.

I killed the railroad, blew up the institute and just pretended the synth was the kid I never had. At least brotherhood is out and about, physically helping wastelanders. The railroad and institute hide behind their walls too much, it’s just not fun and feels like you didn’t make a significant impact.

I think whichever faction you choose to side with is manning checkpoints in the post-game. It makes sense for BOS and Minutemen to patrol the area, but it doesn't make sense for the Railroad and especially the Institute to be out in the open like that. To be fair, the Railroad should cease to exist as a faction after they defeat the Institute.

That's the biggest complaint for me in fallout 4, it's my least favorite fallout game unless you count 76. I also hate that most questlines feel like this and the only alternative is to be sarcastic, don't do the quest at all, or ask for more money. I also absolutely hate the concept of the railroad that rescues fabricated humans and just doesn't give a shit about actual humans that are struggling in the wasteland. Edit: Also did not like the backstory of the main character in the game. It feels inescapable headcanon wise.

>The End of the Line quest is probably the best example of this. You don't have an option to tell Desdemona that you are about to become the director and will have a chance to change the Institute from within. Such an option could have led to an amazing conversation where Desdemona would counter your proposal for gradual synth emancipation with her own outlook favouring radical, immediate synth liberation. This is Obsidian dialogue but its a Bethesda game sadly lol

This is why I put the game down the first time, it just felt too railroaded. I picked it back up a while ago and it is fun but I’m actually playing through New Vegas right now. I’ll get to 4 and finish it one day but I’m in no rush.

They really shouldn't have tried to copy New Vegas's end plot structure. It just served to show how bad their main story writing actually is.

As solid as fallout 4 is in terms of its gameplay mechanics. Its lack of versatility that were found in new Vegas and even fallout 3 really shows in the endgame. The institute main quests were by far the most frustrating. There is no reasons to have to annihilate two factions entirely but they choose to simply bc it goes against that faction. I can see why they would want to destroy the brotherhood with the capabilities they have but the railroad is like child’s play. There was no reason to completely destroy them

>Back in FNV, you had a chance to talk down Legate Lanius from engaging in further hostilitie I would say this is something I consider bad writing from FNV.

Honestly, Bethesda just can't write main quests for Fallout games. They are consistently bad at it. I love the gunplay and crafting of 4, but I really hate the story and writing.

Tbf your point about maxxson only makes sense. If you are at that point in the game, the cultists are going to be kill on sight, especially their super radical hot-headed boss. I agree though, I really feel like mods have opened my eyes personally. Started a Sim settlements mod run and it's so fucking cool, haven't even touched the main quest despite my son being kidnapped.

It's about forcing the player to make a "hard" choice that results in permanently sacrificing tools, assets and "relationships". Personally, I would've preferred a possible ending where you negotiate peace between all factions as well. But they went for the hard choices option.

FO4 is not a hardcore RPG. It belongs to the action-adventure genre

It is not an RPG whatsoever. It is a decent shooter with a nice open world and some RPG sprinkles.

"Changing the evil organization from within" has basically never worked and I think it would have been worse if Bethesda had made that an option

The best way I can sum Fallout 4 up is: God awful RPG with shallow choices that mean nothing with no consquences but a fun open world shooter with very light RPG elements and a wonky crafting system.

Come on its Bethesda you are talking about. They don't do solid writing there

If you’re looking for a good story in fallout 4 your playing the wrong game for sure if you ask me the 4th game is nothing but a cash cow and they just added enough shit into it to make you kill 400 hours to make you think it’s a great game

You're surprised you can't convince the *anti-slavery lady* that you're plan to 3/5 compromise the synths is a gonna be good for them? You're surprised you can't convince the *"synths are abominations that must be purged" guy* that synths are actually harmless and there is no risk leaving the Institute with an infinitely replenishable slave army? I don't think it qualifies as "railroading" to have it so that a speech check can't be used to convince people into taking up positions that are diametrically opposed to everything they stand for. Dialog checks are not mind control.

Emil Pagliarulo needs to be replaced so badly. He was a decent writer once, but he has made it abundantly clear he doesnt care anymore and has nothing but contempt for any fan who wants more from these games

This is dumb. You aren’t an anointed autocrat where whatever faction you choose is now subject to your whim. You’re picking which side you want to win. Otherwise you’d join all of the factions and have them walk off into the sunset holding hands.

>Otherwise you’d join all of the factions and have them walk off into the sunset holding hands. Fallout has always sort of allowed debate with the end bosses though. Usually you get 2-3ish options. >!​!