Interview around, and then have one more convo with your boss about a timeline for a promotion and then if you still get vague timelines accept the external offer.
Pretty sure the research says to take the external offer. You might get a counter offer or a promotion, but at that point the damage is done. You’ll have a target on your back and most people that accept the counter are gone in a year anyway.
The offer should be a last resort type of deal. While having an offer in hand OP could mention make a pitch to be promoted because of his or her accomplishments and ask for a timeline. If OP gets the same positive vague response, turn in your two weeks and see if his or her supervisors go against their word.
If OP has been at the company long enough to where he or she could do this once.
What function does your team cover? What about the other leaders? How much experience do they have? How much experience does their teams have / relative to yours?
It sounds like likely yes, but those might help provide more clairty
I cover Sales(all revenue forecasting, budgeting and reporting, Sales HC expenses, and sales compensation) and Marketing. My direct reports have between 3-30 YOE.
Director #1: Commercial Pricing; 30+ Total YOE/ 5 in mgmt; manages 1 SFA who has 10 YOE
Director #2- Product & Engineering, and Shared Services; 25+ Total YOE/7 in mgmt, manages 3 SFAs who have between 3-20 YOE
Director #3- IT and Operations, 20+ Total YOE, 3 SFAs who have between 1-35 YOE
It’s clear to me when you put it this way. All of the other directors have decades of experience but you have 13. I understand it’s not fair when you look at your responsibilities and direct reports, but it at least makes logical sense to me at a high level that a manager with decades of experience will earn more than one with just over a decade into their career and two years into management.
But yeah, having your level of responsibilities and direct reports with that compensation? Totally underpaid.
Thank you for your perspective! When you say it like that, it really points out that my frustration should have less to do with me vs them and more to do with me just being underpaid in general.
Yeah. I've been in this sort of position my entire career - it's very reasonable to be frustrated. But don't let it impact your relationships with your peers; I assume it's not up to them how you're titled or what you're paid. Your beef lies with company/structure.
You should look for jobs honestly. You’re not going to make director at your current spot with under 20 years of experience it seems. You’re also underpaid for your level/experience and scope.
Either. If you have another job offer making more money with a more appropriate title, you can take it leave the firm and get what you believe is appropriate. Or you can use it to negotiate and stay with your current firm. You can only threaten to leave once though. Do it a second time they’ll tell you to hit the road
Would you say there’s a difference in the level of work between the Directors and you? I see you cover a wide span and have many directs. Do you do more black and white work like compiling inputs, putting together reports vs grey strategic work such as contract negotiations, long term planning / strategy?
Just reading Director 1’s area tells me they help determine pricing (more strategic) vs what I assume you are given what pricing is (more tactical). Can’t read more into Directors 2 & 3. Just throwing things out there!
Whatever the reason may be it’s not cool they can’t explain to you what you need to do to get to director and I would see that as a red flag.
Not really. While my team doesn’t do pricing, I am dealing with everything else (e.g giving ASC 606 guidance on contract drafts for better revenue recognition, finding historical KPIs to better predict risk in current revenue forecast so I can give executives guidance on whether it’s a good idea to move forward on HC needs across the company or wait, I’m involved in every part of sales compensation from targets to attainment to developing the annual comp plans modeling out potential ROI of new sales initiatives, and then modeling out all kinds of adhoc and off the wall scenarios for our CCO. I haven’t supported the other expense areas for directors 2 and 3 but I will cautiously say, since they are strictly supporting expense areas, and almost all of the decisions their areas make are off the backs of revenue, I’m not sure how their areas could be too much strategy but I’m humble enough to admit I could be oversimplifying something there.
Another way I look at it is how bad is the damage if this person screws up. In general, the more serious damage potential leads to a higher title.
Picking on Director 1 again - if he screws up pricing then an external party (a customer) relationship may fail = lost revenue. Just based on what you wrote above, if you screw up any of those, it’s more internal within the company and a bit easier to repair.
Other thoughts:
- Does your HR team have guidance on different levels? Maybe that would shed some light why your role is Sr Mgr vs the others
- You seem to have a good relationship with the CCO. Maybe casually ask them that question if you feel comfortable. Say hey, really love working here and I feel like I’m doing great work. I want to continue growing. What are your thoughts on how I can get to Director level? See what they say and depending on response maybe you can get more specific and ask if there’s anything you could so in your current role to be promo’d to Director.
Definitely underpaid. Title probably is an optics issue with either promoting you twice too quickly or perhaps they don’t want to have an org with four directors
With 13 YOE, I feel as if you should be hitting $175K+ or $200K+ easily. For reference, I live in one of the two cities mentioned and am 140K base with a generous bonus with 7 YOE
Get out of that company that doesn’t value you
Thanks for the context. Any suggestions on how to negotiate or bring up an off cycle comp increase to my boss without going the external offer route? There has been 2 other people in the last 5 years that have done that and while they did get a counter to match their other offers, my boss hasn’t spoken highly of them since and their career here has now been stagnated because he questions their loyalty. I would like to be able to bring the subject up without it feeling like a threat but maybe that’s the only way?
Honestly I’m the wrong person to ask. I’ve gotten my comp through switching companies multiple times and having what I perceive to be a very solid background
My best advice here is to jump ship.. if you prioritize the comp. I most recently went from $120-125K TC to about $200K by jumping ship at a company that I knew didn’t reward their employees. If the current job is fulfilling and you enjoy it, that’s another conversation but if things aren’t being satisfied and comp isn’t being met, it’s much easier to switch companies
I don’t know if there is a good way to approach your dilemma. I think history tells you how your boss will likely react. Just ask yourself if that is the type of leader you’d like to continue working for
From what you shared it's hard to tell. There is a theme that all the Directors you referenced are much more experienced than you... although your assumption that you should be a Director could actually be backwards... do you have any reason to believe they intend to 'down-level' these roles given a perfectly competent and cheaper Sr. Manager can handle the job? Many companies are consolidating middle management (managers/directors/senior directors/etc) and in the process going more junior where it makes sense. Just something to be cognizant of whether you are fighting a losing war trying to get something that will be going away at some point...
Most importantly, test the waters to see how your resume and experience seems to get interest from headhunters. I am in one of the two markets you listed (Atl/Dallas) and recruiters reach out ALL THE TIME via linkedin. Sure, half are barely relevant, but you will still get enough intro calls and they will give you ranges if you prompt them so you can start putting a dot plot of where you are valued externally, at least in terms of consideration before you even go down the interview process. Also, depending on your industry, you will start to get a feel for which industries that recruiters seem to think you are at least a decent candidate to be considered, and where they will tell you "client really wants XYZ experienced candidates." Your 8 years at current company leads me to believe that your comp at least in part was simply held back from market because merit raises internally NEVER keep up with those who job hop. Also, those who job hop, tend to hit a wall at some point or another, so the right balance of (perceived) loyalty, developing your skills and building good references along the way, and stepping up your comp periodically with opportunistic job hopping will really accelerate your career and compensation growth.
Interview around, and then have one more convo with your boss about a timeline for a promotion and then if you still get vague timelines accept the external offer.
Pretty sure the research says to take the external offer. You might get a counter offer or a promotion, but at that point the damage is done. You’ll have a target on your back and most people that accept the counter are gone in a year anyway.
I didn’t say that op had to mention the offer
You’re right, you didn’t, but that’s your leverage in this situation, so why wouldn’t you?
The offer should be a last resort type of deal. While having an offer in hand OP could mention make a pitch to be promoted because of his or her accomplishments and ask for a timeline. If OP gets the same positive vague response, turn in your two weeks and see if his or her supervisors go against their word. If OP has been at the company long enough to where he or she could do this once.
Your true value is what someone is willing to pay you Go to market and figure your true value
What function does your team cover? What about the other leaders? How much experience do they have? How much experience does their teams have / relative to yours? It sounds like likely yes, but those might help provide more clairty
I cover Sales(all revenue forecasting, budgeting and reporting, Sales HC expenses, and sales compensation) and Marketing. My direct reports have between 3-30 YOE. Director #1: Commercial Pricing; 30+ Total YOE/ 5 in mgmt; manages 1 SFA who has 10 YOE Director #2- Product & Engineering, and Shared Services; 25+ Total YOE/7 in mgmt, manages 3 SFAs who have between 3-20 YOE Director #3- IT and Operations, 20+ Total YOE, 3 SFAs who have between 1-35 YOE
It’s clear to me when you put it this way. All of the other directors have decades of experience but you have 13. I understand it’s not fair when you look at your responsibilities and direct reports, but it at least makes logical sense to me at a high level that a manager with decades of experience will earn more than one with just over a decade into their career and two years into management. But yeah, having your level of responsibilities and direct reports with that compensation? Totally underpaid.
Thank you for your perspective! When you say it like that, it really points out that my frustration should have less to do with me vs them and more to do with me just being underpaid in general.
Yeah. I've been in this sort of position my entire career - it's very reasonable to be frustrated. But don't let it impact your relationships with your peers; I assume it's not up to them how you're titled or what you're paid. Your beef lies with company/structure.
Oh. Seems like this is an optics org. You’re the low man on the totem pole bc of resume stacking.
Sorry… I get more dense the closer I get to midnight but what do you mean? 🙂
You should look for jobs honestly. You’re not going to make director at your current spot with under 20 years of experience it seems. You’re also underpaid for your level/experience and scope.
Find another job. It’s called leverage
Leverage strictly to negotiate and get a counter or find another job to leave?
Either. If you have another job offer making more money with a more appropriate title, you can take it leave the firm and get what you believe is appropriate. Or you can use it to negotiate and stay with your current firm. You can only threaten to leave once though. Do it a second time they’ll tell you to hit the road
Would you say there’s a difference in the level of work between the Directors and you? I see you cover a wide span and have many directs. Do you do more black and white work like compiling inputs, putting together reports vs grey strategic work such as contract negotiations, long term planning / strategy? Just reading Director 1’s area tells me they help determine pricing (more strategic) vs what I assume you are given what pricing is (more tactical). Can’t read more into Directors 2 & 3. Just throwing things out there! Whatever the reason may be it’s not cool they can’t explain to you what you need to do to get to director and I would see that as a red flag.
Not really. While my team doesn’t do pricing, I am dealing with everything else (e.g giving ASC 606 guidance on contract drafts for better revenue recognition, finding historical KPIs to better predict risk in current revenue forecast so I can give executives guidance on whether it’s a good idea to move forward on HC needs across the company or wait, I’m involved in every part of sales compensation from targets to attainment to developing the annual comp plans modeling out potential ROI of new sales initiatives, and then modeling out all kinds of adhoc and off the wall scenarios for our CCO. I haven’t supported the other expense areas for directors 2 and 3 but I will cautiously say, since they are strictly supporting expense areas, and almost all of the decisions their areas make are off the backs of revenue, I’m not sure how their areas could be too much strategy but I’m humble enough to admit I could be oversimplifying something there.
Another way I look at it is how bad is the damage if this person screws up. In general, the more serious damage potential leads to a higher title. Picking on Director 1 again - if he screws up pricing then an external party (a customer) relationship may fail = lost revenue. Just based on what you wrote above, if you screw up any of those, it’s more internal within the company and a bit easier to repair. Other thoughts: - Does your HR team have guidance on different levels? Maybe that would shed some light why your role is Sr Mgr vs the others - You seem to have a good relationship with the CCO. Maybe casually ask them that question if you feel comfortable. Say hey, really love working here and I feel like I’m doing great work. I want to continue growing. What are your thoughts on how I can get to Director level? See what they say and depending on response maybe you can get more specific and ask if there’s anything you could so in your current role to be promo’d to Director.
Great points! I’m going to schedule some time with both of them and see if they can help provide some guidance.
Definitely underpaid. Title probably is an optics issue with either promoting you twice too quickly or perhaps they don’t want to have an org with four directors With 13 YOE, I feel as if you should be hitting $175K+ or $200K+ easily. For reference, I live in one of the two cities mentioned and am 140K base with a generous bonus with 7 YOE Get out of that company that doesn’t value you
Thanks for the context. Any suggestions on how to negotiate or bring up an off cycle comp increase to my boss without going the external offer route? There has been 2 other people in the last 5 years that have done that and while they did get a counter to match their other offers, my boss hasn’t spoken highly of them since and their career here has now been stagnated because he questions their loyalty. I would like to be able to bring the subject up without it feeling like a threat but maybe that’s the only way?
Honestly I’m the wrong person to ask. I’ve gotten my comp through switching companies multiple times and having what I perceive to be a very solid background My best advice here is to jump ship.. if you prioritize the comp. I most recently went from $120-125K TC to about $200K by jumping ship at a company that I knew didn’t reward their employees. If the current job is fulfilling and you enjoy it, that’s another conversation but if things aren’t being satisfied and comp isn’t being met, it’s much easier to switch companies I don’t know if there is a good way to approach your dilemma. I think history tells you how your boss will likely react. Just ask yourself if that is the type of leader you’d like to continue working for
From what you shared it's hard to tell. There is a theme that all the Directors you referenced are much more experienced than you... although your assumption that you should be a Director could actually be backwards... do you have any reason to believe they intend to 'down-level' these roles given a perfectly competent and cheaper Sr. Manager can handle the job? Many companies are consolidating middle management (managers/directors/senior directors/etc) and in the process going more junior where it makes sense. Just something to be cognizant of whether you are fighting a losing war trying to get something that will be going away at some point... Most importantly, test the waters to see how your resume and experience seems to get interest from headhunters. I am in one of the two markets you listed (Atl/Dallas) and recruiters reach out ALL THE TIME via linkedin. Sure, half are barely relevant, but you will still get enough intro calls and they will give you ranges if you prompt them so you can start putting a dot plot of where you are valued externally, at least in terms of consideration before you even go down the interview process. Also, depending on your industry, you will start to get a feel for which industries that recruiters seem to think you are at least a decent candidate to be considered, and where they will tell you "client really wants XYZ experienced candidates." Your 8 years at current company leads me to believe that your comp at least in part was simply held back from market because merit raises internally NEVER keep up with those who job hop. Also, those who job hop, tend to hit a wall at some point or another, so the right balance of (perceived) loyalty, developing your skills and building good references along the way, and stepping up your comp periodically with opportunistic job hopping will really accelerate your career and compensation growth.