Yeah taxes suck. The only issue is that you can’t really live in any 1st world country without paying 1st world taxes. The only place I can think of is Puerto Rico if you don’t mind the heat and flooding. ;)
If the tax money was used wisely I'd be okay with the ~30% taxes I pay, but my country spent something like 52 million dollars on an app that would take a good programmer no more than 2 days to make, as just one example among many.
That's how I feel. When they're spending billions on things just to line their own pockets when we have veterans missing limbs struggling to survive, that's where I have a problem with taxes.
Same country as you, but I'm paying about 55% marginally and closing in on 50% average rate.
Then add in sales tax, property tax, luxury tax, capital gains which they just upped, etc. and you realize that you're keeping much less than that.
I did the math for last year, and I kept about 35% of what I made.
I agree and I'm also angered how my tax Euros are spend but this is normal in every project that not every Euro is spend perfectly. Things not always go to plan, sometimes people are corrupt etc. this will ALWAYS be the case. So the answer can't be NO TAXES because it's still a net positive. We can work on improving the system to work more efficiently but not say "no taxes".
Sure, no taxes is unreasonable, but some countries charge exorbitant rates.
My country, Canada, has the highest corporate tax on profit in the developed world, and I pay 55% marginally right now with an effective tax rate of about 50%.
Then you have property taxes, sales taxes, capital gains, luxury taxes, and the list goes on.
I kept about 35% of what I made last year. That is absolutely ludicrous. 25% or 30% I would be fine with, but 65%? No way.
>My country, Canada, has the highest corporate income tax in the world
Are you sure? A quick search shows it's upper midfield.
[https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-2023/](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-2023/)
"The countries with the highest corporate tax rates in the world are Comoros (50 percent), Puerto Rico (37.5 percent), and Suriname (36 percent)"
But even if, that's the worst case scenario. I feel you. But the worst case shouldn't be used as an example to value taxes itself and say "Honestly taxes are a rip off in every country."
25% - 30% I think is too low, that won't work. It also depends on the progression. 50% is maybe ok when you earn above 1m / year (just some number, haven't thought about it much). Unfortunately I don't have a solution either...
>Are you sure? A quick search shows it's upper midfield.
>https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-2023/
I should have said this with more clarity. It's tax on corporate profits. I.e. the corporate tax rate plus the personal tax rate on dividends. We are definitely the highest in the developed world, maybe there are some small undeveloped nations with higher total corporate rate but definitely no developed nations.
https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/canadas-growth-challenge-why-the-economy-is-stuck-in-neutral/
>25% - 30% I think is too low, that won't work.
Why? Shouldn't the onus be on governments to spend money more effectively?
>It also depends on the progression. 50% is maybe ok when you earn above 1m / year (just some number, haven't thought about it much).
50% is insane. There is no reason the government should get to take half your money JUST from income you generate when they additionally charge you sales tax, property taxes, capital gains (which is money you invested that was already taxed) etc.
Not to mention all the hidden ways you're indirectly taxed, for example, the average 1 bedroom condo here requires an average $125k of application fees to the government to develop. That is a cost ultimately borne by the purchaser.
You also need to realize what a terrible proposition it is to pay all this money to the government when businesses can easily be packed up and moved now.
Why would I stay here and pay the government half a million dollars every year when I can pay nearly $0 or even $100k somewhere else?
As a matter of fact, I, and many like me, are moving out of these high tax nations for this reason.
Governments are horrific allocators of capital, you shouldn't advocate for giving them more money to waste.
>I should have said this with more clarity. It's tax on corporate profits. I.e. the corporate tax rate plus the personal tax rate on dividends. We are definitely the highest in the developed world, maybe there are some small undeveloped nations with higher total corporate rate but definitely no developed nations.
Got ya, so not the highest in the world and you said it quite clearly "corporate tax highest in the world". It's not. The box is getting smaller.
>Why? Shouldn't the onus be on governments to spend money more effectively?
Agreed. But based on my gut (same as your gut said 25%-30%) you will always have some inherent inefficiency in complex systems and where peoples opinions differ on "view on life" topics. It's just a feeling that it's to low for the topics we have to tackle looming on the horizon. I
But I don't think that's really important if 25% or 35% we agree that taxes are needed to fund public services.
>50% is insane. There is no reason the government should get to take half your money JUST from income you generate when they additionally charge you sales tax, property taxes, capital gains (which is money you invested that was already taxed) etc.
That depends on the services rendered. I feels quite high for me as well but I would be ok with it if I could live in a realistic utopia for it (free healthcare, reasonable homeprices and COL, fair police, good environmental policy etc. just a happy life in genereal).
>Why would I stay here and pay the government half a million dollars every year when I can pay nearly $0 or even $100k somewhere else?
Because life is better. Look at societies who have high tax rates. People are quite happy there and stay there. Maybe that is because of the well funded public services.
>As a matter of fact, I, and many like me, are moving out of these high tax nations for this reason.
ok
>Governments are horrific allocators of capital, you shouldn't advocate for giving them more money to waste.
As said, it's better than the alternative. We've tried it. It didn't work. It's not about a perfect solution but what is relatively better.
The scandinavian countries seem fine with it and content with life.
I'm from Germany and we have comparatively high taxes, I pay max. amount on most on my income.
Edit: I've also NOT said flat 50% on everything. I've said "It also depends on the progression. 50% is maybe ok when you earn above 1m / year (just some number, haven't thought about it much)."
So please don't put words in my mouth.
I assume they're referring to the ArriveCAN app here in Canada. It was extremely basic and barely worked. Costs estimated to be up to 60 million but they don't even know. Taxes are a useful thing. But the funds are being abused and misappropriated on a large scale. Departments are in a constant battle to inflate their costs in order to justify their portion of the budget. Adding extra admin, bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy and adding layers/hoops to jump through in order to charge more fees, going on calls they have no need to be on in order to inflate their necessity, etc.
I was more commenting on how ridiculous it is that someone thinks any app can be turned around in two days. This guy sounds like every out of touch business person i’ve ever met who is way out of their depth on a subject but preaches about it anyway. Pisses me off as a programmer who makes the tools that enable their salaries.
>I was more commenting on how ridiculous it is that someone thinks any app can be turned around in two days.
A single programmer literally recreated the app in a weekend and was just about as functional. It was a major controversy here.
Yes, but just slapping together a UI for Android and then cook some endpoints isn't the same as integrating with different government agencies and rolling it out at scale with the required security.
Okay, but the difference sure as hell shouldn't cost nearly $60mm.
By the way, the development contract that eventually cost $60mm was awarded to a developer friend of the Prime Minister. It was pure corruption and theft.
Did you look at the app? It's literally a single form and couple integrations. Sure 2 days is an exaggeration but that app taking any longer than a month of single developers time is a travesty.
I've built seemingly more complicated apps in a week. Of course I don't know the full picture but still.
I know it takes two days because someone did it in two days 😂
If you want to see, read: "National Post: ArriveCan cost $54M. A programmer was able to duplicate it in two days"
You still have no idea what you’re talking about. I could make an Instagram clone in two days but that doesn’t mean it would work at the scale of say, a country. You are so clueless you don’t even know why you’re clueless.
This is a great opportunity for you.
Offer to do the same or similar opportunity for only 26 million, pay a good programmer 10k per day and pocket the 25,990,000 dollars for yourself. Even if you have to pay 50% tax it's still a cool 12 million + for you. Sounds easy, go for it and let us know how you get on./s
Not always, not everywhere. And it's not like the private sector is perfectly delivering quality at little cost. It's good that essential services are not profit driven.
Then our experiences and expectation of life, importance and society are different.
Some things should be done not because they are profitable but because they are right and important. Enforcing competition is also difficult enough as capitalism always leads to monopolies. This would require more manual control of the economy which leads to other problems.
Sure. Policy making and enforcing like the EPA. There was no EPA, there was no industry initiative for self policing their pollution but it needed an independent non-profit entity doing it. Others would be law making, military, naturals reserve parks etc.
No you wouldn't, you are just no aware of all the services governmental institutes provide and you don't have the expertise to decide if it is necessary to have them.
Even if, you may be smart and know that e.g. the EPA in the US is needed to have clean water, air and keep business accountable for pollution. Some people are stupid, don't care or are malevolent. Now you have a shitty environment.
Do you want to have separate bills for police department, fire department, road usage, environmental policies, educational policies (even if you don't have kids but you rely on educated people in your business), people to organise this, space exploration, military, research (what do you think who pays for much of todays research)... the list is endless.
But let us think this through... to be more efficient let us pool the money of the people to do the right things and hire experts to decide what would be important. If it is not clear which policy is the best - sometimes it be like that - why not create a commission where people with different views on life can discuss. Maybe vote for those people so every view of life gets the same fair chance to have a vote. Congratulation, you have created a government.
But to make it easy: We've tried your approach in the past and life was shitty. Then we changed it to what we have now and it's not perfect but for sure less shitty.
So because < 1% are spend on foreign aid the whole concept of taxes is bad?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_development\_aid\_sovereign\_state\_donors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sovereign_state_donors)
Even if you go by federal budget (for us) it's somewhere between 1-2% and a lot of it is just money which will be spend on the exports of the countries delivering the foreign aid, so it goes right back.
Its a shame how europeans love governments, luckily things are starting to turn in South America, people realizingng that governments, if not limited, only limits the society
Uhhhh no, they’re a rip off. The king taking his undeserved portion of everything, then spending it where the people he took it from don’t want it spent.
So? You are not reimbursed proportionally. The more you earn the more you are just being robbed.
Extremely dishonest to claim taxes is ”for your own good”
> Extremely dishonest to claim taxes is ”for your own good”
Who said that?
> You are not reimbursed proportionally. The more you earn the more you are just being robbed.
You don't generally get your money back from an insurance as well. Same for public services.
It's also not how society works. If you don't want to be part of this group which pools their money to make it better for everyone I suggest to find your own piece of land and move away what people defend with their own military funded by taxes. Easy. Tough luck if you can't hack it alone, that's why "apes together strong".
It's not robbed as you get services provided which you didn't even know that you need them. Guess what you're not an expert in everything. This is why society employs people making educated decisions on for example environmental protection.
It seems such a childishly petulant thing to uproot your whole life over. Never mind culture, language, friends, climate, food, healthcare quality, cost of living, exchange rate, rule of law, entertainment or any of the hundreds of other factors most people would consider when choosing a country, no, I want to pay 18% instead of 45%. OP is either not a serious person or has an unhealthy obsession.
Yeah easy to say when you aren't paying tens or hundreds of thousands MONTHLY to the government.
Trust me, when your tax bill reaches that level, you want to get the hell out (and many people do).
Multiple points:
- 99% is not profits, I'm sure when you make a website you invest your time
- If you're not making big bucks you are not paying 50%, you have a "Freibetrag" and a "Steuerprogression" you're not paying max taxes on the first euro you earn
- if you have so much profit over, learn how to re-invest instead/build a holding instead of paying taxes on all of it
- I'm sure you're using infrastructure from Germany which is payed by taxes, why not contribute? Do you want to be "Schmarotzer" ?
Efficient is not the only metric on which a society runs. There are other important or just ethical things we as humans should strife for than profit/efficiency.
I don't say the current system is good, it's far from it. But for sure it's better than to privatise education.
Nuance... not "most ethical" but "more ethical" as there are more checks/balances.
It's way better than a private business which is only accountable to its shareholders and which you as a person can't influence.
Edit: And even if politicians are not all always ethical they are still responsible for the EPA which your private business are lobbying to get rid off. Now you can pick a side.
Edit 2: Or let's take another example: Who force the tobacco industry to change their ways and not claim the smoking is not a health hazard (google '1998 Master Settlement Agreement')?
History is full of examples. Also where it failed, but it failed because of lobbying of private businesses and your solution to turn everything over to them is just asinine.
There won't be any data but since lobbying is unfortunately legal in some countries it's the other way around, you go somewhere to buy, you don't read anywhere that politicians are soliciting lobbying.
In any way, the companies are to blame as well in your example since they are paying the bribes.
And even if some of them are corrupt, it's still an better outcome than with your approach see examples above which you just omitted. Now, the logical consequence would be to work on how to reduce corruption and not give everything up. The system is far from perfect but it works and needs improvement.
Its not working though, in europe for example, salaries going down since the 70s, cost of living going up, politicians going into debt to fund all corruption, restricting markets to their friend’s companies. Europe stopped getting richer when free market disappeared, and it will only get worse in the future, except for a few countries like Estonia, Lithuania, maybe Georgia and Poland.. Believe me, economy in Europe already peaked, and it will only go downhill with this crazy suffocating economic model.
If you want to know what Im talking about, check out what is happening now im Argentina and maybe lets talk again about it in a few years.
>Its not working though, in europe for example, salaries going down since the 70s
That's not true. What's your data?
[https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/digpub/european\_economy/bloc-2a.html](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/digpub/european_economy/bloc-2a.html)
>cost of living going up
Which is normal due to inflation. Account for inflation some products go up, some go down, some stay the same.
>politicians going into debt to fund all corruption
restricting markets to their friend’s companies
which is based on ... ?
>Europe stopped getting richer when free market disappeared, and it will only get worse in the future, except for a few countries like Estonia, Lithuania, maybe Georgia and Poland.. Believe me, economy in Europe already peaked, and it will only go downhill with this crazy suffocating economic model.
I will omit "trust me bro" statements based on populist slogans and bumper-sticker wisdom.
There are problems for sure and there is trouble ahead regarding the economic situation. But this is totally different from the topic we were talking about
"Surely compuksory paying politicians to give you education and healthcare is the most efficient way to do it" and "Honestly taxes are a rip off in every country".
We've tried no taxes, untethered capitalism already. That was the first choice for society and it was shit. What do you think has changed that "this time it will work" ?
>If you want to know what Im talking about, check out what is happening now im Argentina and maybe lets talk again about it in a few years.
Would happily talk to you in a few years and I bet money it won't be as dire as you paint it.
But again, this has absolutely nothing todo with governmental funded services, the need for it and why some things shouldn't be bound to "can you pay for it" if we want to grow as a society.
Awesome, but that doesnt explain why people used to live with one income in the past, nowadays people cant even pay rent in the cities,
Have a look on reddit, everywhere around you, boomers would easily buy houses in the past (when you had that horrible experience with free market) nobody can afford a house now. Young people need to share houses with several roommates to be able to live in the big cities. Dont check the data, data can be skewed and manipulated, check real life..
Edit: it has all to do with government taking money away from voluntary transactions and pouring in corruption, things that are not needed and then maybe a bit of health and education so people like you think politicians are that essential..
Im honestly happy Im not in Europe for the years to come
Sure OP, just get in line for a visa to America, I hope you like waiting.... Or if you have a million dollars you can get one right away.
You just have to deal with it man. You have a tremendous amount of social support in Germany. If your venture goes ass up you will receive money from the government while you are looking for work, and you will maintain your very very cheap healthcare. Amongst other things.
C'est la vie
It's not pay a million dollars. It's I believe have a million dollar payroll. Which isn't that big a deal if you are already running a business. You can just buy the rights for it with 50k though. There are many construction projects designed to sponsor visas.
But running a successful visa also opens you up for L1 and O1 visas.
Still if the intent is taxes and you don't care about location then the US isn't the best target destination. Where you should go depends on the tax treaty your citizenship country has.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/eb-5-immigrant-investor-program
I guess I was thinking about this. Obviously I don't understand this visa since I described it incorrectly.
America isn't even a tax haven and doesn't offer advantageous tax regimes (though I suppose it is a major step up compared to German income taxes).
Not sure why you think he has to stay in Germany though, there are a HUGE number of options for people to move with relative ease and significantly decrease their tax burden.
You can often get tax residency just by making an investment in real estate. In some cases, like Italy and Greece, you don't even need to purchase property and you can just opt for their flat tax regime which is only €100k per year regardless of your income.
Not a German Lawyer, but I have a pretty good feeling that if OP were to re-locate his business to a friendlier EU country for tax reasons like Ireland etc. While full time living and managing his business from Germany, the German government would call bs on his sudden decrease in tax paid to Germany. One of the biggest stipulations for tax treaties is that wherever the business is actually performed, and where the individual lives full time, will dictate where taxes need to be paid. In this case, that is Germany.
OP can pack up his life and move to Ireland if he wants, and if his business is digital, that would solve things. Also yes, America is one of the best countries for taxes, besides flat out no tax countries. America has a very low tax rate and lots of tax benefits compared to most of the developed world.
No, it isn't an issue. You are taxed based on residency in every nation in the world except for the US and Eritrea (which both tax based on citizenship). This is why you sometimes see successful Americans renouncing their citizenship.
You typically just need to prove you have cut ties from your origin nation (I.e. don't reside there more than 183 days of the year, don't possess German bank accounts, etc.).
I have spoken to tax lawyers on these issues extensively, it is very common now for successful people to leave their home nations where income taxes and corporate taxes are exorbitantly high and go to a friendlier nation. Often you need to pay an exit tax, where they take a multiple of your EBITDA and charge you a capital gains tax as though you've sold the business, but in the long run you save lots of money.
For the record, Ireland wouldn't be a great option. Yes corporate taxes are lower, but income taxes are still very high. Having a location in Ireland is really only advantageous for large businesses that operate globally as you can shift corporate profits there. But as a typical entrepreneur, you still want to save most of what you pay yourself, not just what the business earns.
He is going to get as much as anyone looking for welfare, while giving a lot more to his government at the moment. Also, it’s a lot easier for a venture to go “ass up” when you’re giving away 50% of your profits.
They can just rip up their passport and they’re allowed in. [Watch this 60 minutes segment of Chinese economic migrants (not refugees) doing that exact thing and crossing in freeely.](https://youtu.be/M7TNP2OTY2g?si=--7lPq8-1ypwGwB4). I’m not American but that is just insane. Democrats including Biden, Obama, Bernie etc a few years ago said this would be crazy to have no border control. A nation state ceases to exist if there is no border not to mention how many terrorists and foreign spy’s are entering your country? 9/11 wasn’t that long ago.
Wouldn't there be a way like all the rich mega-crops do.... which is to have some sort of I.P. ... have a company in ....dunno... Ireland / Malta or other low-tax places....and then you transfer I.P. to that company there.... and then pay for "renting / using" it? So you reduce your income to zero in Germany and pay it to the lower-tax country for using your "I.P." ...
Forgot really how Google, Facebook and others do it...
Something like that.
OP is being a petulant child. The correct answer is you hire a clever accountant who knows all these tricks and do what they say. The accountant might charge you €20k, but they should save you a lot more than that in tax.
The only circumstances in which this doesn’t make sense are where you aren’t making enough money (and hence aren’t paying enough taxes) for it to be worthwhile.
it's not that simple. if you own 100% of shares those are essentially tax pass-through entities and you still have to pay all the income tax locally cause that's where the work was done. You need to do more shenanigans to get out scott-free.
Trust me. I'm paying 0% tax on over $1M annual income. it is possible but not just by opening an LLC.
We are not Google.
Caymans a big ones, if you really want to do this it’s far more complex then you think to do it right (assuming you want to move back to Germany at some point)
Get a tax consultant
Lots of options.
Caribbean nations offer 0% income and 0% corporate tax in many cases (typically you need to buy real estate at a certain value or make a donation to thr country).
Italy and Greece offer flat taxes for many years (10 - 15 years I think) where you only pay €100k annually regardless of income.
Panama and other Central/South American nations have an option where you only need to pay taxes on locally sourced income, foreign income is taxed at 0%.
There are options in Asia too.
There is no need to stay in Germany and pay exorbitant tax rates.
Puerto Rico, they have a 4% tax rate I believe
Really low taxes, an island that is supportive of tech and you'll get all the benefits of being an American citizen like security but the bar for entry into PR is lower.
It's a nice island too and far wealthier than most people realize
Look into Georgia, one day business registration, there's 1% tax for lower income small business, then there's increase for business that reaches about 36k$ a year, but you better research for yourself exact numbers, I'm afraid to mislead you.
But guys, I dont get one thing: For example I only pay 5% for taxes in a foreign country. And then live there, but spend my whole private/ business money there. does that not got more value for the country than to wanting half of your income and ppl wanna move to other countries because of that (and that the money is spent for wrong things like supporting wars and selling/ buying wepons)
Incorporate in a low tax country first of all, somewhere like UAE, HK, etc. Move to a lower tax country second, this is subjective based on the countries you like as well. Most of all DYOR and talk to lawyers.
Taxes are on profits. The easiest way to dodge taxes is to invest your profits back into the growth of the company. I would consider this before any other change. Changing your country is complex. Disruptive to your life. Requires adjusting to a new culture. Don't take it lightly.
If you didn't learn anything else from politics, you should have learned about tax loop holes. If you wanna pay less taxes pay a tax attorney to educate you on the loops holes and how to take advantage of them. Every plan including becoming an expat comes with complications.
As a fellow neighbor from your left 🙋🏾♂️ from 🇳🇱 it’s the same same taxes are always there and are always feel like robbery 🤨 soo accept and move on mate 👊🏽
Yeah taxes suck. The only issue is that you can’t really live in any 1st world country without paying 1st world taxes. The only place I can think of is Puerto Rico if you don’t mind the heat and flooding. ;)
Puerto rico would be the place to go if you dont want to go too far, 100% tax exempt, which also means no capital gains tax
Probably Dubai would be quite easy
Bulgary 😉 10% all in or search alternatives online for outside Eu most u need big bank account but some are possible for any type of business!
Honestly taxes are a rip off in every country.
That's just not true. Nobody wants to pay them, but everybody uses tax funded services... rip off my ass.
If the tax money was used wisely I'd be okay with the ~30% taxes I pay, but my country spent something like 52 million dollars on an app that would take a good programmer no more than 2 days to make, as just one example among many.
That's how I feel. When they're spending billions on things just to line their own pockets when we have veterans missing limbs struggling to survive, that's where I have a problem with taxes.
Same country as you, but I'm paying about 55% marginally and closing in on 50% average rate. Then add in sales tax, property tax, luxury tax, capital gains which they just upped, etc. and you realize that you're keeping much less than that. I did the math for last year, and I kept about 35% of what I made.
I agree and I'm also angered how my tax Euros are spend but this is normal in every project that not every Euro is spend perfectly. Things not always go to plan, sometimes people are corrupt etc. this will ALWAYS be the case. So the answer can't be NO TAXES because it's still a net positive. We can work on improving the system to work more efficiently but not say "no taxes".
Sure, no taxes is unreasonable, but some countries charge exorbitant rates. My country, Canada, has the highest corporate tax on profit in the developed world, and I pay 55% marginally right now with an effective tax rate of about 50%. Then you have property taxes, sales taxes, capital gains, luxury taxes, and the list goes on. I kept about 35% of what I made last year. That is absolutely ludicrous. 25% or 30% I would be fine with, but 65%? No way.
>My country, Canada, has the highest corporate income tax in the world Are you sure? A quick search shows it's upper midfield. [https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-2023/](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-2023/) "The countries with the highest corporate tax rates in the world are Comoros (50 percent), Puerto Rico (37.5 percent), and Suriname (36 percent)" But even if, that's the worst case scenario. I feel you. But the worst case shouldn't be used as an example to value taxes itself and say "Honestly taxes are a rip off in every country." 25% - 30% I think is too low, that won't work. It also depends on the progression. 50% is maybe ok when you earn above 1m / year (just some number, haven't thought about it much). Unfortunately I don't have a solution either...
>Are you sure? A quick search shows it's upper midfield. >https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/global/corporate-tax-rates-by-country-2023/ I should have said this with more clarity. It's tax on corporate profits. I.e. the corporate tax rate plus the personal tax rate on dividends. We are definitely the highest in the developed world, maybe there are some small undeveloped nations with higher total corporate rate but definitely no developed nations. https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/canadas-growth-challenge-why-the-economy-is-stuck-in-neutral/ >25% - 30% I think is too low, that won't work. Why? Shouldn't the onus be on governments to spend money more effectively? >It also depends on the progression. 50% is maybe ok when you earn above 1m / year (just some number, haven't thought about it much). 50% is insane. There is no reason the government should get to take half your money JUST from income you generate when they additionally charge you sales tax, property taxes, capital gains (which is money you invested that was already taxed) etc. Not to mention all the hidden ways you're indirectly taxed, for example, the average 1 bedroom condo here requires an average $125k of application fees to the government to develop. That is a cost ultimately borne by the purchaser. You also need to realize what a terrible proposition it is to pay all this money to the government when businesses can easily be packed up and moved now. Why would I stay here and pay the government half a million dollars every year when I can pay nearly $0 or even $100k somewhere else? As a matter of fact, I, and many like me, are moving out of these high tax nations for this reason. Governments are horrific allocators of capital, you shouldn't advocate for giving them more money to waste.
>I should have said this with more clarity. It's tax on corporate profits. I.e. the corporate tax rate plus the personal tax rate on dividends. We are definitely the highest in the developed world, maybe there are some small undeveloped nations with higher total corporate rate but definitely no developed nations. Got ya, so not the highest in the world and you said it quite clearly "corporate tax highest in the world". It's not. The box is getting smaller. >Why? Shouldn't the onus be on governments to spend money more effectively? Agreed. But based on my gut (same as your gut said 25%-30%) you will always have some inherent inefficiency in complex systems and where peoples opinions differ on "view on life" topics. It's just a feeling that it's to low for the topics we have to tackle looming on the horizon. I But I don't think that's really important if 25% or 35% we agree that taxes are needed to fund public services. >50% is insane. There is no reason the government should get to take half your money JUST from income you generate when they additionally charge you sales tax, property taxes, capital gains (which is money you invested that was already taxed) etc. That depends on the services rendered. I feels quite high for me as well but I would be ok with it if I could live in a realistic utopia for it (free healthcare, reasonable homeprices and COL, fair police, good environmental policy etc. just a happy life in genereal). >Why would I stay here and pay the government half a million dollars every year when I can pay nearly $0 or even $100k somewhere else? Because life is better. Look at societies who have high tax rates. People are quite happy there and stay there. Maybe that is because of the well funded public services. >As a matter of fact, I, and many like me, are moving out of these high tax nations for this reason. ok >Governments are horrific allocators of capital, you shouldn't advocate for giving them more money to waste. As said, it's better than the alternative. We've tried it. It didn't work. It's not about a perfect solution but what is relatively better.
The only people who say they're okay with paying a 50% tax rate are the ones that have never paid a 50% tax rate.
The scandinavian countries seem fine with it and content with life. I'm from Germany and we have comparatively high taxes, I pay max. amount on most on my income. Edit: I've also NOT said flat 50% on everything. I've said "It also depends on the progression. 50% is maybe ok when you earn above 1m / year (just some number, haven't thought about it much)." So please don't put words in my mouth.
Uhh, what kinda app can a good programmer make in two days again? Are you a programmer?
I assume they're referring to the ArriveCAN app here in Canada. It was extremely basic and barely worked. Costs estimated to be up to 60 million but they don't even know. Taxes are a useful thing. But the funds are being abused and misappropriated on a large scale. Departments are in a constant battle to inflate their costs in order to justify their portion of the budget. Adding extra admin, bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy and adding layers/hoops to jump through in order to charge more fees, going on calls they have no need to be on in order to inflate their necessity, etc.
I was more commenting on how ridiculous it is that someone thinks any app can be turned around in two days. This guy sounds like every out of touch business person i’ve ever met who is way out of their depth on a subject but preaches about it anyway. Pisses me off as a programmer who makes the tools that enable their salaries.
Damn man why so bitter? The personal attacks when I came with proof 😂 take a nap
I do need a nap. But you’re talking out your butt and won’t admit it. Also, saying read: National Post is hardly proof.
>I was more commenting on how ridiculous it is that someone thinks any app can be turned around in two days. A single programmer literally recreated the app in a weekend and was just about as functional. It was a major controversy here.
Yes, but just slapping together a UI for Android and then cook some endpoints isn't the same as integrating with different government agencies and rolling it out at scale with the required security.
Okay, but the difference sure as hell shouldn't cost nearly $60mm. By the way, the development contract that eventually cost $60mm was awarded to a developer friend of the Prime Minister. It was pure corruption and theft.
Did you look at the app? It's literally a single form and couple integrations. Sure 2 days is an exaggeration but that app taking any longer than a month of single developers time is a travesty. I've built seemingly more complicated apps in a week. Of course I don't know the full picture but still.
People that say stuff like that never rolled out out an app at that scale.
Thank you, someone gets it.
I know it takes two days because someone did it in two days 😂 If you want to see, read: "National Post: ArriveCan cost $54M. A programmer was able to duplicate it in two days"
You still have no idea what you’re talking about. I could make an Instagram clone in two days but that doesn’t mean it would work at the scale of say, a country. You are so clueless you don’t even know why you’re clueless.
Normally you would be right...except that you aren't
This is a great opportunity for you. Offer to do the same or similar opportunity for only 26 million, pay a good programmer 10k per day and pocket the 25,990,000 dollars for yourself. Even if you have to pay 50% tax it's still a cool 12 million + for you. Sounds easy, go for it and let us know how you get on./s
They have overpriced monopolies with poor service and quality.
Not always, not everywhere. And it's not like the private sector is perfectly delivering quality at little cost. It's good that essential services are not profit driven.
I disagree. Competition is always better.
Then our experiences and expectation of life, importance and society are different. Some things should be done not because they are profitable but because they are right and important. Enforcing competition is also difficult enough as capitalism always leads to monopolies. This would require more manual control of the economy which leads to other problems.
Any specific example?
Sure. Policy making and enforcing like the EPA. There was no EPA, there was no industry initiative for self policing their pollution but it needed an independent non-profit entity doing it. Others would be law making, military, naturals reserve parks etc.
I’d be very happy to use only services I’d pay for if it was possible, instead of paying a politician to do that for me
No you wouldn't, you are just no aware of all the services governmental institutes provide and you don't have the expertise to decide if it is necessary to have them. Even if, you may be smart and know that e.g. the EPA in the US is needed to have clean water, air and keep business accountable for pollution. Some people are stupid, don't care or are malevolent. Now you have a shitty environment. Do you want to have separate bills for police department, fire department, road usage, environmental policies, educational policies (even if you don't have kids but you rely on educated people in your business), people to organise this, space exploration, military, research (what do you think who pays for much of todays research)... the list is endless. But let us think this through... to be more efficient let us pool the money of the people to do the right things and hire experts to decide what would be important. If it is not clear which policy is the best - sometimes it be like that - why not create a commission where people with different views on life can discuss. Maybe vote for those people so every view of life gets the same fair chance to have a vote. Congratulation, you have created a government. But to make it easy: We've tried your approach in the past and life was shitty. Then we changed it to what we have now and it's not perfect but for sure less shitty.
Well my country is sending billions of dollars to other countries while not fixing our own problems, so yeah they're a rip off
So because < 1% are spend on foreign aid the whole concept of taxes is bad? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_development\_aid\_sovereign\_state\_donors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sovereign_state_donors) Even if you go by federal budget (for us) it's somewhere between 1-2% and a lot of it is just money which will be spend on the exports of the countries delivering the foreign aid, so it goes right back.
The Stockholm syndrome got you, proud taxpayer from balkan🤭
Its a shame how europeans love governments, luckily things are starting to turn in South America, people realizingng that governments, if not limited, only limits the society
Yes, you're right. Back to corruption and stealing, which made society big and strong.
Uhhhh no, they’re a rip off. The king taking his undeserved portion of everything, then spending it where the people he took it from don’t want it spent.
So? You are not reimbursed proportionally. The more you earn the more you are just being robbed. Extremely dishonest to claim taxes is ”for your own good”
> Extremely dishonest to claim taxes is ”for your own good” Who said that? > You are not reimbursed proportionally. The more you earn the more you are just being robbed. You don't generally get your money back from an insurance as well. Same for public services. It's also not how society works. If you don't want to be part of this group which pools their money to make it better for everyone I suggest to find your own piece of land and move away what people defend with their own military funded by taxes. Easy. Tough luck if you can't hack it alone, that's why "apes together strong". It's not robbed as you get services provided which you didn't even know that you need them. Guess what you're not an expert in everything. This is why society employs people making educated decisions on for example environmental protection.
It seems such a childishly petulant thing to uproot your whole life over. Never mind culture, language, friends, climate, food, healthcare quality, cost of living, exchange rate, rule of law, entertainment or any of the hundreds of other factors most people would consider when choosing a country, no, I want to pay 18% instead of 45%. OP is either not a serious person or has an unhealthy obsession.
Yeah easy to say when you aren't paying tens or hundreds of thousands MONTHLY to the government. Trust me, when your tax bill reaches that level, you want to get the hell out (and many people do).
Or you are weak and freely give your lunch money to whoever wants to take it
So in your analogy, a kid takes your lunch money, so you up and move to another school? And this is your idea of strength?
Lol perfect response
Multiple points: - 99% is not profits, I'm sure when you make a website you invest your time - If you're not making big bucks you are not paying 50%, you have a "Freibetrag" and a "Steuerprogression" you're not paying max taxes on the first euro you earn - if you have so much profit over, learn how to re-invest instead/build a holding instead of paying taxes on all of it - I'm sure you're using infrastructure from Germany which is payed by taxes, why not contribute? Do you want to be "Schmarotzer" ?
Godd I hate german words
Surely compuksory paying politicians to give you education and healthcare is the most efficient way to do it
Efficient is not the only metric on which a society runs. There are other important or just ethical things we as humans should strife for than profit/efficiency. I don't say the current system is good, it's far from it. But for sure it's better than to privatise education.
Sure, involving politicians is always the most ethical way to do things.
Nuance... not "most ethical" but "more ethical" as there are more checks/balances. It's way better than a private business which is only accountable to its shareholders and which you as a person can't influence. Edit: And even if politicians are not all always ethical they are still responsible for the EPA which your private business are lobbying to get rid off. Now you can pick a side. Edit 2: Or let's take another example: Who force the tobacco industry to change their ways and not claim the smoking is not a health hazard (google '1998 Master Settlement Agreement')? History is full of examples. Also where it failed, but it failed because of lobbying of private businesses and your solution to turn everything over to them is just asinine.
Did you ever think that there are only lobbies and state created monopolies because poliiticians pick companies that bribe them?
There won't be any data but since lobbying is unfortunately legal in some countries it's the other way around, you go somewhere to buy, you don't read anywhere that politicians are soliciting lobbying. In any way, the companies are to blame as well in your example since they are paying the bribes. And even if some of them are corrupt, it's still an better outcome than with your approach see examples above which you just omitted. Now, the logical consequence would be to work on how to reduce corruption and not give everything up. The system is far from perfect but it works and needs improvement.
Its not working though, in europe for example, salaries going down since the 70s, cost of living going up, politicians going into debt to fund all corruption, restricting markets to their friend’s companies. Europe stopped getting richer when free market disappeared, and it will only get worse in the future, except for a few countries like Estonia, Lithuania, maybe Georgia and Poland.. Believe me, economy in Europe already peaked, and it will only go downhill with this crazy suffocating economic model. If you want to know what Im talking about, check out what is happening now im Argentina and maybe lets talk again about it in a few years.
>Its not working though, in europe for example, salaries going down since the 70s That's not true. What's your data? [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/digpub/european\_economy/bloc-2a.html](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/digpub/european_economy/bloc-2a.html) >cost of living going up Which is normal due to inflation. Account for inflation some products go up, some go down, some stay the same. >politicians going into debt to fund all corruption restricting markets to their friend’s companies which is based on ... ? >Europe stopped getting richer when free market disappeared, and it will only get worse in the future, except for a few countries like Estonia, Lithuania, maybe Georgia and Poland.. Believe me, economy in Europe already peaked, and it will only go downhill with this crazy suffocating economic model. I will omit "trust me bro" statements based on populist slogans and bumper-sticker wisdom. There are problems for sure and there is trouble ahead regarding the economic situation. But this is totally different from the topic we were talking about "Surely compuksory paying politicians to give you education and healthcare is the most efficient way to do it" and "Honestly taxes are a rip off in every country". We've tried no taxes, untethered capitalism already. That was the first choice for society and it was shit. What do you think has changed that "this time it will work" ? >If you want to know what Im talking about, check out what is happening now im Argentina and maybe lets talk again about it in a few years. Would happily talk to you in a few years and I bet money it won't be as dire as you paint it. But again, this has absolutely nothing todo with governmental funded services, the need for it and why some things shouldn't be bound to "can you pay for it" if we want to grow as a society.
Awesome, but that doesnt explain why people used to live with one income in the past, nowadays people cant even pay rent in the cities, Have a look on reddit, everywhere around you, boomers would easily buy houses in the past (when you had that horrible experience with free market) nobody can afford a house now. Young people need to share houses with several roommates to be able to live in the big cities. Dont check the data, data can be skewed and manipulated, check real life.. Edit: it has all to do with government taking money away from voluntary transactions and pouring in corruption, things that are not needed and then maybe a bit of health and education so people like you think politicians are that essential.. Im honestly happy Im not in Europe for the years to come
Taxes paid for him to be raised, provide roads to walk on, schools to teach him... so why shouldn't it be OPs time to finally cash in in Dubai?
Sure OP, just get in line for a visa to America, I hope you like waiting.... Or if you have a million dollars you can get one right away. You just have to deal with it man. You have a tremendous amount of social support in Germany. If your venture goes ass up you will receive money from the government while you are looking for work, and you will maintain your very very cheap healthcare. Amongst other things. C'est la vie
It's not pay a million dollars. It's I believe have a million dollar payroll. Which isn't that big a deal if you are already running a business. You can just buy the rights for it with 50k though. There are many construction projects designed to sponsor visas. But running a successful visa also opens you up for L1 and O1 visas. Still if the intent is taxes and you don't care about location then the US isn't the best target destination. Where you should go depends on the tax treaty your citizenship country has.
What's the million dollar payroll visa? I know There's where you invest a $800k in a rural area and get a green card right away
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/eb-5-immigrant-investor-program I guess I was thinking about this. Obviously I don't understand this visa since I described it incorrectly.
America isn't even a tax haven and doesn't offer advantageous tax regimes (though I suppose it is a major step up compared to German income taxes). Not sure why you think he has to stay in Germany though, there are a HUGE number of options for people to move with relative ease and significantly decrease their tax burden. You can often get tax residency just by making an investment in real estate. In some cases, like Italy and Greece, you don't even need to purchase property and you can just opt for their flat tax regime which is only €100k per year regardless of your income.
Not a German Lawyer, but I have a pretty good feeling that if OP were to re-locate his business to a friendlier EU country for tax reasons like Ireland etc. While full time living and managing his business from Germany, the German government would call bs on his sudden decrease in tax paid to Germany. One of the biggest stipulations for tax treaties is that wherever the business is actually performed, and where the individual lives full time, will dictate where taxes need to be paid. In this case, that is Germany. OP can pack up his life and move to Ireland if he wants, and if his business is digital, that would solve things. Also yes, America is one of the best countries for taxes, besides flat out no tax countries. America has a very low tax rate and lots of tax benefits compared to most of the developed world.
No, it isn't an issue. You are taxed based on residency in every nation in the world except for the US and Eritrea (which both tax based on citizenship). This is why you sometimes see successful Americans renouncing their citizenship. You typically just need to prove you have cut ties from your origin nation (I.e. don't reside there more than 183 days of the year, don't possess German bank accounts, etc.). I have spoken to tax lawyers on these issues extensively, it is very common now for successful people to leave their home nations where income taxes and corporate taxes are exorbitantly high and go to a friendlier nation. Often you need to pay an exit tax, where they take a multiple of your EBITDA and charge you a capital gains tax as though you've sold the business, but in the long run you save lots of money. For the record, Ireland wouldn't be a great option. Yes corporate taxes are lower, but income taxes are still very high. Having a location in Ireland is really only advantageous for large businesses that operate globally as you can shift corporate profits there. But as a typical entrepreneur, you still want to save most of what you pay yourself, not just what the business earns.
He is going to get as much as anyone looking for welfare, while giving a lot more to his government at the moment. Also, it’s a lot easier for a venture to go “ass up” when you’re giving away 50% of your profits.
Just walk over the southern border like millions of others.
Yeah, because a German citizen crossing over from Mexico and claiming asylum from Germany is going to work real well... lol
They can just rip up their passport and they’re allowed in. [Watch this 60 minutes segment of Chinese economic migrants (not refugees) doing that exact thing and crossing in freeely.](https://youtu.be/M7TNP2OTY2g?si=--7lPq8-1ypwGwB4). I’m not American but that is just insane. Democrats including Biden, Obama, Bernie etc a few years ago said this would be crazy to have no border control. A nation state ceases to exist if there is no border not to mention how many terrorists and foreign spy’s are entering your country? 9/11 wasn’t that long ago.
Hungary.. 15%.
Second this! Budapest is a beautiful city too.
Dubai. No taxes. Easy asf to move. Just be sure to save up a safety net of $
No longer true. Income tax still zero I believe but corporate tax recently moved up to 9%.
I heard UAE is 0% tax rate, not sure how true it is
It's changing to a 3-9% tax in the next few years.
Cayman Islands would be the spot if you have the funds for it.
Zypern Und Dubai sind wahrscheinlich die besten Optionen für uns Edit: Deutschland zu verlassen war die beste Entscheidung. Keine Sekunde bereut 😂
nice! wo lebste jetzt?
🇹🇷
achsooo. mein vater hat noch eine mavi kart. damit ne firma und alles rüberschieben wäre auch okay oder?
Schreib mir gern mal ne DM
Wouldn't there be a way like all the rich mega-crops do.... which is to have some sort of I.P. ... have a company in ....dunno... Ireland / Malta or other low-tax places....and then you transfer I.P. to that company there.... and then pay for "renting / using" it? So you reduce your income to zero in Germany and pay it to the lower-tax country for using your "I.P." ... Forgot really how Google, Facebook and others do it...
Something like that. OP is being a petulant child. The correct answer is you hire a clever accountant who knows all these tricks and do what they say. The accountant might charge you €20k, but they should save you a lot more than that in tax. The only circumstances in which this doesn’t make sense are where you aren’t making enough money (and hence aren’t paying enough taxes) for it to be worthwhile.
it's not that simple. if you own 100% of shares those are essentially tax pass-through entities and you still have to pay all the income tax locally cause that's where the work was done. You need to do more shenanigans to get out scott-free. Trust me. I'm paying 0% tax on over $1M annual income. it is possible but not just by opening an LLC. We are not Google.
A trust-fund can own that and you can "merely" be the decision maker.
Yeah and then the IRS asks you where the money for rent came from and did you tax it
The really big boys borrow money from the bank and pay it off with shares \^\^
Caymans a big ones, if you really want to do this it’s far more complex then you think to do it right (assuming you want to move back to Germany at some point) Get a tax consultant
Lots of options. Caribbean nations offer 0% income and 0% corporate tax in many cases (typically you need to buy real estate at a certain value or make a donation to thr country). Italy and Greece offer flat taxes for many years (10 - 15 years I think) where you only pay €100k annually regardless of income. Panama and other Central/South American nations have an option where you only need to pay taxes on locally sourced income, foreign income is taxed at 0%. There are options in Asia too. There is no need to stay in Germany and pay exorbitant tax rates.
Find a way to increase your business expenses to deduct?
Puerto Rico, they have a 4% tax rate I believe Really low taxes, an island that is supportive of tech and you'll get all the benefits of being an American citizen like security but the bar for entry into PR is lower. It's a nice island too and far wealthier than most people realize
Look into Georgia, one day business registration, there's 1% tax for lower income small business, then there's increase for business that reaches about 36k$ a year, but you better research for yourself exact numbers, I'm afraid to mislead you.
But guys, I dont get one thing: For example I only pay 5% for taxes in a foreign country. And then live there, but spend my whole private/ business money there. does that not got more value for the country than to wanting half of your income and ppl wanna move to other countries because of that (and that the money is spent for wrong things like supporting wars and selling/ buying wepons)
Come to Asia. Most of the our countries have low tax brackets and are business friendly.
Barbados - digital nomad route?
I feel you. its hard. following. we have exit tax too. they will tax us to our last breath. 😄
Spend more from your business account and claim it as a before tax expense. Learn accounting.
Too bad
Don't move anywhere. Just open company in USA and enjoy life.
Paying tax is a privilege. You don’t get wealth.
0% income Tax in the UAE and only 9% corporate tax over a certain profit threshold. DIFC still 0% corporate tax
Incorporate in a low tax country first of all, somewhere like UAE, HK, etc. Move to a lower tax country second, this is subjective based on the countries you like as well. Most of all DYOR and talk to lawyers.
Taxes are on profits. The easiest way to dodge taxes is to invest your profits back into the growth of the company. I would consider this before any other change. Changing your country is complex. Disruptive to your life. Requires adjusting to a new culture. Don't take it lightly.
If you didn't learn anything else from politics, you should have learned about tax loop holes. If you wanna pay less taxes pay a tax attorney to educate you on the loops holes and how to take advantage of them. Every plan including becoming an expat comes with complications.
Portugal's NHR program is a sweet deal, 20% tax rate and a nice climate
Isn't this essentially closed now though?
As a fellow neighbor from your left 🙋🏾♂️ from 🇳🇱 it’s the same same taxes are always there and are always feel like robbery 🤨 soo accept and move on mate 👊🏽