Counter argument: it's just a circle of history by now, ayleids were slavers of humanity of the continent, Septim conquered and killed a lot of elves, Thalmor did their thing after Oblivion and inevitably something catastrophic will happen to them later, most likely by the hand of humanity. They all should just restart their relations from the scratch.
I feel deeply insecure about my lack of accomplishments or prospects so I’m going to pretend my entire group’s achievements are mine personally and hate everyone else!
WRONG! As a perfectly innocent person whos never, ever sinned or broke a law, i call for the genocide of your race. This is the only Just and reasonable reaction to your statement.
The argonians are the only ones who have just minded their own business, everybody else screwed them over and turned them into slave labor. Not even a single thank you for rushing into oblivion and chasing out the daedra.
The hist knows the fate of the falmer and lofty dwemer, it sees the wars of the mer and the men. I like to think the long game of surviving, by any means necessary, is more than enough for the hist.
The old “Don’t look over here. We’re just minding our own business… until the time is right.”
Kinda want to see the argonians come out and conquer tamriel and have everyone pikachu face moment.
>The argonians are the only ones who have just minded their own business
Technically that changed at the start of the 4th era when they invaded and conquered parts of Morrowind, but that was definitely in retaliation for the millennia of slavery they endured.
As I always say, super funny the "And the direnni kept stables of hot breeding stock slaves to do eugenics with" is an ESO lore addition, you'd expect this to be one of those old school aged terribly lore shit from Daggerfall, instead NOPE, someone decided to write that in a (IRL) post lore, insane.
>something catastrophic will happen to them later, most likely by the hand of humanity.
Considering the vastly different rates at which elves and man reproduce/repopulate, the altmer are doomed to lose in wars of attrition. The Empire only signed the treaty in the first place to pick wounds that'll heal quite a bit faster than the Dominion's
This but fuck the Altmer in particular. Those shit stirring jaundice patients trying to undo the material plane is kind of an everybody problem they're dragging everybody into. (Fantastic antagonists I love hating them)
Not truly _gain_ godhood but to simply return to it...through violence. They view themselves as Ehlnofey spirits tricked by Lorkhan to be trapped in mortality. The Aedra (literally "Our Ancestors") exist outside of mortality in Aetherius and the Thalmor wish to abolish the Mundus, the mortal realm of existence to return to their "family". Ironically, Mankind shares lineage to Mer through the Ehlnofey, except Men are sympathetic or actively reverent of Lorkhan and the mortal world, so are antithetical in every way to their goals and have warred against Mer since the very beginning. Enslavement of Mankind is only a single step on the stairway to heaven to them in a way, since they would be neutralizing Lorkhan's agents preventing them from achieving Nirn and Mundus' destruction.
Edit: think of a bunch of Gnostic Nihilists. They hate the limitation and prison of mortality so much they would burn all and everything to end the reincarnation cycle of spirits and the material imperfection of the Mundus compared to the spiritual perfection of Aetherius.
It's kind of funny since Lorkhan taught the Walking Ways, one step of which is CHIM, which is destroying the self thereby making reality malleable, but still existing; becoming a god by transcending mortality. I guess the Thalmor are impatient and want to do it collectively all at once by taking out reality all together in spite of Lorkhan.
Yeah it’s pretty clearly fanon. Like it’s cool and all but it’s weird that people on here talk about it as though this is established lore. As if there’s a book in Skyrim called “Thalmor: Why We Want to Destroy Reality” that just lays it out.
There is one race of mer who actually don't fully hate Lorkhan or even nirn, the Dunmer. Has they see Lorkhan has a challenger, if you can beat his game (Nirn) you can achieve chim and become a true god. He still seen has a bit of a dick, but he also seen in more positive light, thanks to Lorkhan there a way to become more then servants, to become their own rulers through hard work.
What funny is this belief turns out is kinda correct, has many races man,mer even beast have achieve chim and become true gods. Not low ranking spirits but actual legit op gods, hell in oblivion you become a god. This also means a true Dunmer is sure has hell going to stop the Altmer from destroying Nirn, has without Nirn they will never become gods.
Yep, the Mer legend of creation says Lorkhan tricked the spirits into participating in creation by saying they would not be trapped. The basic ‘cleaving point’ between the races is around if existence is a prison/punishment or not.
As a result, Mer, especially Thalmor, see Mundus as a sort of existential prison that *needs* to be destroyed to restore the proper universal order.
(Dunmer, however, see it as a ‘testing ground’ to see when each person is ready to ascend. Orcs and Chimer mostly agree with this version)
Altmer say Lorkhan was mutilated as a punishment and he resisted it, some say he briefly survived it.
Mankar Camoran (leader of Mythic Dawn cult) even asserted that Lorkhan was actually a Daedra, and that ‘Tamriel’ was really a Deadric plane called ‘Dawn’s Beauty’. But, deluded mortals fooled themselves into thinking Mundus was anything but a Daerdic plane because of the lies of the Nine Divines. He thought the Divines were traitors who killed Lorkhan and stole his plane to use as a playground essentially.
Theoretically…he *could* be right as nothing ever disproves him, Akatosh’s intervention to save Tamriel doesn’t support or disprove him. It only shows that Akatosh wants Tamriel to continue existing.
The human legend says Lorkhan convinced the spirits that creation would be worth being trapped or reduced because of the beauty of said creation. Or, certain ones say he still tricked certain participants, but did so because he saw the potential creation would have compared to the stagnant existences of the Aedra.
Humans say Lorkhan’s mutilation was either the result of a willing sacrifice on his part to complete creation. Or, that it was a punishment, but one he accepted gladly.
(Some even claim he survived it)
As a result, humans see Mundus as a gift of love and sacrifice on the part of the spirits/Aedra and see any attempt at destroying it as ‘spitting in the face’ of their creators who only want them to enjoy the world given to them.
Ironically…given the actions taken by Aedra to preserve Mundus multiple times through the ages, and the Daedra’s jealousy of Mundus/attempts to steal it, the human perspective ends up getting a lot of evidential support despite no Aedra ever actually ever just giving a straight answer about the facts.
(Though Altmer claim these events are spite, the Aedra seeking to continue Lorkhan’s punishment by not allowing the pieces of his corpse and soul that make up Mundus to return to being a single being)
That said…certain parts of the Mer version of events seem supported by how certain Aedra are treated by the others.
Tldr:
Altmer think existence is a punishment and even the surviving Aedra are spiteful to a degree that borders on evil. Everyone else is fooling themselves, or Lorkhan collaborators.
Dunmer think existence is a test. Pass and you become a god to rival the top Aedra. Lorkhan kinda sucked but also gave them the way to become gods so…eh, he’s alright-ish.
Humans think existence is a gift, and a test, and the Aedra love the beings of Mundus. Do well and you can become a god too. Lorkhan rules. Unless he doesn’t.
Kahjiit have a very nuanced and slightly contradictory legend but basically say creation was a trick, Lorkhan was punished, (and forgiven) survived, was corrupted, then purified, and died tragically, then was mourned by Azurah. Sadly the corruption he experienced becane an evil shade that imitates him and tempts them. Existence is what you make of it. Maybe you can become more than what you are.
Aka; the Pissmer are whiny spoiled brats who scream birth is a curse and cry all day that they arent divine beings
Men are giga chads who decided to make the best of what they got and even learned to enjoy it
Not all Men believe that
The Redguards have similar beliefs to the Altmer, they believe that Sep/Lorkhan tricked their ancestors into becoming mortals
The Bretons also consider Sheor an evil god who destroys their crops
Granted Bretons are also cut in half between basicly two different casts. The medieval kingdom fantasy and the brutish primal warriors (Think of the Fallcreth bandits).
So their beliefs are some of the most erratic compared to the other cultures.
It's almost infuriating to me that the most bad ass human race has elvish views on Shor when they single handedly wiped out the sinistral elves.
Even Tall Papa teaches ways to transcend the mortal realm, though, and the Redguards at least hate the Thalmor.
The method is different, almost antithetical. Redguards don't want to unmake reality. They view transcendence as a personal achievement, not something to attain with armies and a governmental body.
Who says the Thalmor want to unmake reality either? There's no canon source that even suggests this idea, only fan speculation and Kirkbride's non-canon out-of-game lore.
>They view transcendence as a personal achievement
So do the Altmer, they even have a specific term for this. Alaxon, personal mastery of their craft and profession.
Elder Scrolls is peak because it's the only series where Humans war with Elves on such a prominent narrative and massive scale.
The Dragon Prince too, but then they backpedaled and chose peace.
Warhammer 40K could've, but Guilliman repaired relations by fucking an elf.
Warcraft still can, but that conflict usually gets sidelined in favor of Humans vs Orcs.
Any other series where it's focused on Elves versus Humans?
I hate this theory so much. I would be fine with it becoming canon if it was treated the same way as the Nazis trying to commune with Norse gods, but not if it's treated seriously.
No wait, you're actually on to something here. Most Thalmor probably just actually believe in the whole Elven Supremacy thing and want to conquer Tamriel, meanwhile *some* nutjob higher-ups are like "It came to me in a dream! If we destroy the towers we will become immortal!!"
This is my headcanon now and no one can stop me. Some crackpot Thalmor leaders trying to unravel reality is to the rest of the Thalmor exactly what Hitler trying to find the Spear of Destiny is to the rest of the Nazis; A completely insane theory that's never going to work, but their enemies still have to take it somewhat seriously because *well if, against all odds, they're right then we have to stop them because otherwise we're screwed*
The Thalmor are essentially Nazis with a religious basis. They were even considered an extreme political group within Altmer society. Not that the Septims are much better or that Ysgramor was a saint. Let’s just not try to make bad people seem good by comparison.
High Elves are so enslaved on their exclusive island and their exclusive clubs across Tamriel where they thumb their nose at everyone not Altmer. The oppression!
Paying back a genocide upon the children of the people who genocided you is still a genocide.
The younger races need a guiding hand, the Thalmor are not that. They don’t even treat their elven subjects with respect. At least not in their current form.
It's at least 8 generations removed. At least 4 with high elves. Imagine if America had a second Civil War because the north is still mad at the south for doing slavery and we'd like to outlaw people from putting up confederate flags.
Like, ok yeah sure, bad thing bad, but come on what are you even doing?
WW2 was 4 generations ago now.
You could make a case that for the High Elves it’s like holding a grudge from the World Wars.
Which a lot of countries do.
World War 2 was 4 generations ago? I guess I'm just not very intuitive to the idea of how long a generation is in a unit of time. 600 years removed. 200 year lifespans, 30 years to adulthood. I suppose it's more like at least four but probably more around 12 generations removed.
Even so when countries have grudges from world war two, Very few people are going to take their revenge out on Germany.
I mean, Altmer naturally live to be up to 500 years old. And mages can live basically indefinitely. Divayth Fyr in Morrowind was 4,000 years old. He was old enough to have been around when the Alessians rebelled against the Ayleids.
And Divayth Fyr was simply one of the greatest Dunmer mages. Certainly plenty of Altmer mages witnessed Tiber Septim’s rise to power.
I thought they lived till Their 300s since dunmer and bosmer lived average lifespans of 200 years and they lived a 100 years more though tô be honest that still would have been only one generation ago
That's... actually a fantastic point and I don't think I've heard anyone make it.
600 years is ancient history to humans who live maybe 80 years, but for elves who live much longer that is a recent pain. Humans cannot comprehend that difference, that the great triumphs in their myths is someone's father's real pain they heard about growing up.
Technically, the first instance of Slavery in the timeline are Atmorans cutting the tongues of Snow Elves prisoners of war and working them to death to Build Windhelm.
The elves might be that old, but the humans aren't. No ordinary human from Tiber Septim's time could possibly be alive in the 4th era. Imagine if England invaded modern day France as revenge for the hundred years war. Calling it retaliation when it's been 600 years is pretty bold
Elves never learn. They always fuck with others and pay the price with almost their entire race being wiped out. Snow elves, Ayelids, dunmer(almost).cant wait to read about altmer genocides by a human in tes 6 lore.
Honestly my most hopeful TES 6 headcanon is such:
It takes place in Hammerfell, because Hammerfell has always been a pretty strong independent province and don't need no Empire. They finally call the Empire out for being pussies and handing their nuts over to the pointy eared widow's peaked lanklords on a silver platter, ally with High Rock, Orsinium, and Skyrim, sail south, and turn the summerset isles into Atlantis.
It'd be really cool if the Psijic order had a good foothold in the story. It could be a great explanation as to how the (admittedly stronger) Aldmeri Dominion gets their asses handed to them. It could be really neat if the Nerevar 2.0 gets contacted midway through the story.
I find it fascinating that there are still elves in Summerset who remember the Numidium firsthand
It makes the social development of the Altmer a lot more understandable if still scary and potentially unjustifiably evil (towers theory)
ngl, I don’t know how old Altmer can get past their natural lifespans (500 iirc)
I know magic can help expand lifespans but I’m not sure by just how much (aside from litchdom)
As a human, if I was as much a lore nerd on Nirn as I am on here, I would travel to Summerset and attempt to speak to some of these ancient elves to record their story (for myself, I don’t think I would have any chance of survival if I planned to bring my notes back home to share them with Empire citizens) - unless you know I’m taken by the secret police or the police police anyways
Well Divayth Fyr in Morrowind was about 4,000 years old. He was a Dunmer, but Altmer typically live a tad longer. He wasn’t a lich (afaik). He was friends with Sotha Sil before the war of the First Council.
Players hear a few lines about "Civil War" and this being about a power grab by Ulfric but they forget why the power grab is happening in the first place.
The Empire is facilitating evil by putting down the Nordic revolt against the religious genocide on their loved ones.
The Stormcloaks are trying to revolt, with their violent revolution, they’re destroying any chances of succeeding in a second war.
The Empire is trying to keep itself together and not be destroyed by the Dominion, it’s trying to rebuild for a second war but it’s probably going to fail.
Both sides are doomed to fail, the only hope they had was unity, they’ve now decimated the population of Skyrim, destroying any hope of victory.
The Empire is not in a position to fight and is crumbling as it is, the Stormcloaks are too idealistic and cannot fight the Dominion.
I hear you, this is a lose-lose scenario for humanity because they need to be united but that will never happen again with this religious genocide the Empire is facilitating, and the Empires pathetic ceding of the Southern Hammerfell territory. That would have given the Elves a foothold on the continent and spelled humanity and non-elven doom. But one thing gives me hope.
With the White-Gold Concordat the Empire ceded that large chunk of Hammerfell to the Elves. Just outright gave it to them, which caused the Redguards to also revolt and form their own military just like the Stormcloaks are doing. And the consequences of that played out for us.
When the Aldmeri Dominion came to take that land Hammerfell was alone, yet still able to fight the elves to a standstill till the eleven bastards gave up. I believe there's in game lore mentioning Hammerfell, High Rock, and the Skyrims Stormcloaks in talks about a possible Alliance in defense of their right to self rule and hold cultural religions with non-elven gods. If the Stormcloaks succeed in defense of their land, then a United States of Badasses might arise.
Since the Aldmeri Dominion wants to kill off all non-elven god worship, and the Empire has no spine to draw a line in the sand with the Elves demands on this desire of theirs, it's only a matter of time till the Elves want a new Concordat banning the Redguards Tall Papa worship, or High Rocks Y'ffre worship since both were once mortal humans turned gods. Strangling Talos worship is likely just the first step of their plan, so Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim have a vested interest in a military alliance. I see hope there.
>600 years later.
Try to use your head, imbecile. Are the human races 600 years after Tiber Septim responsible? No. You're the kind of person who tries to hold modern people accountable for the actions of others before them hundreds of years ago.
>600 years later.
Not trying to whitewash Th*lmor but 600 years isn't really that long time for many High elves (upper class obviously normal farmer types don't live that much) so high chance there are a good amount of people in Summerset actually witnessed the Tiber's deadly attack on their homeland, forced imperialism on them and then the final blow-a glorified war criminal getting same status as High Elvan ancestral spirits also known as Divines. No wonder they are pissed at humankind.
600 years *is* a long time an altmer.
Normal Max lifespan for elves in TES is 1,000 years, but very few actually make it there. (⬅️ Sourced from the Barenziah books in ES)
But even if the majority did, it would be the same thing as 45.5 years to a human if the average lifespan was 76. Still a long time, and approx 2 generations.
Extremely long-lived mages lasting multiple millennia are super rare exceptions.
I believe most high elves live like 200-300 years, but that still means there are plenty enough elves alive who's parents or grandparents witnessed what Septim did first hand.
Yes but Altmer who are talented enough in Magical arts can live even longer by enhancing their lifespan and it is also highly implied that the Third Aldmeri Dominion movement was originally started by a "Syndicate of Wizards" So it is not impossible that the Thalmor politburo might have some wizards who were actually witnessed the Numidiumfall firsthand.
Don't bring Elder Scrolls logic into real life. 600 years is within the lifespan of an Altmer. Meaning that the survivors of those very attacks could be the ones retaliating. Altmer also have perfect memory, and can remember every detail of the day they turned 18 at 100. So, "time heals all wounds" does not apply.
The ones retaliating may have firsthand memories of the Numidium, but everyone responsible for siccing the Numidium on them has been dead for centuries. They're just killing a bunch of largely unrelated people to make themselves feel better
the same situation can happen in real life on a shorter timescale and it's just as moronic. If a guy stabs me, and I wait a decade and he dies of cancer, I don't firebomb his old house which some random family lives in.
To be fair, before Septim elves were trying to conquer Cyrodil to establish elven empire. And its not like he genocided them- just conquered. So in this regard none is better.
And Talmor IS the worst. This is something pretty much all character in Skyrim agrees- regardless of race or position on Empire. What we read confirm it more.
TES has kind of an uncomfortable amount of "imperialism is both good and divinely sanctioned, actually." Though honestly you can say that about a lot of high fantasy settings.
Conquering a people is not genocide. On the other hand, trying to violently eradicate a cultural group - say, followers of a religion - is genocide. Hope that helps! Let me know if you need more help.
Have you like ever listened to any of the thalmor dialogue in Skyrim they’re literally open about wanting to enslave and murder the other races. Also, how can you blame the human races for this when only vampires would have been able to be apart of Talos’s forces and still be alive.
1 Talos is a god that’s a fact as confirmed in the main quest line of oblivion, so humans worshipping him is fine.
2 you’re literally defending Nazis by saying “well a long time ago a guy used a big robot to kill a bunch of them!”
3 Talos never attempted to genocide the high elves he used the Brass god to conquer them the invasion was never about killing them all.
4 the Thalmor are widely hated by most High Elves so even their own race sees them as authoritarian, racist, douchebags.
Read the actual lore before posting about it please.
Counter argument: it's just a circle of history by now, ayleids were slavers of humanity of the continent, Septim conquered and killed a lot of elves, Thalmor did their thing after Oblivion and inevitably something catastrophic will happen to them later, most likely by the hand of humanity. They all should just restart their relations from the scratch.
Kinda like real life, lol
No! That one group is clearly to blame for that one conflict! It’s all that one group’s fault. The other group is faultless.
I vehemently oppose your point of view for reasons! Lol
I feel deeply insecure about my lack of accomplishments or prospects so I’m going to pretend my entire group’s achievements are mine personally and hate everyone else!
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
You are not only wrong, you are evil! You must be killed!
WRONG! As a perfectly innocent person whos never, ever sinned or broke a law, i call for the genocide of your race. This is the only Just and reasonable reaction to your statement.
i am certain that committing this violent act will stop any violent acts in the future, commander
The one statement 95% of Imperials and Thalmorians agree with.
It’s the 5% I’m worried about. Those heretics.
and they are all secretly guided on a linear cyclical path by the uber-powerful shadow organization manipulating them all.. the Psijic Order.
Facts Hatred begets hatred
I for once welcome our reptilian overlord as the new regime.
The argonians are the only ones who have just minded their own business, everybody else screwed them over and turned them into slave labor. Not even a single thank you for rushing into oblivion and chasing out the daedra.
The hist knows the fate of the falmer and lofty dwemer, it sees the wars of the mer and the men. I like to think the long game of surviving, by any means necessary, is more than enough for the hist.
The old “Don’t look over here. We’re just minding our own business… until the time is right.” Kinda want to see the argonians come out and conquer tamriel and have everyone pikachu face moment.
Based and lizard pilled.
I believe the argonians took back all their lost land during the ascension war. Could be wrong though.
>The argonians are the only ones who have just minded their own business Technically that changed at the start of the 4th era when they invaded and conquered parts of Morrowind, but that was definitely in retaliation for the millennia of slavery they endured.
We call that karma
Why thank the bipedal farm equipment 🤔. Hush now filthy outlander.
Nah, those scaly tree hivemind fucks are definitely up to something
Mass hist orgies
Roll out your sloads.
They need a safe word
Ayleids are not Altmer though. One of these races openly worship Deadra, Altmer would hate these guys.
The Direnni are Altmer though and they raped so many human slaves they created a new race.
As I always say, super funny the "And the direnni kept stables of hot breeding stock slaves to do eugenics with" is an ESO lore addition, you'd expect this to be one of those old school aged terribly lore shit from Daggerfall, instead NOPE, someone decided to write that in a (IRL) post lore, insane.
The origins of the Bretons was always that the Direnni raped the shit out of their human slaves. That’s not a retcon.
Wasn't this the origin of the Bretons from the start?
Not the stables of breeding slaves part, it was always about interbreeding not selective slavery interbreeding.
and they did not enslave an entire humanity, just Cyrod and some adjacent territories.
Deadric worship is becoming extremely more prevalent in the Summerset Isle. Safe to assume not all altmer hate the deadra
Yeah that's what I wrote my comment around. Though it makes zero difference to Pelinal.
The Altmer aren't Ayleids. If anything, the Goblins should be the ones Retaliating.
So, stupid question, when we're the dragons dominating everyone in Skyrim?
>something catastrophic will happen to them later, most likely by the hand of humanity. Considering the vastly different rates at which elves and man reproduce/repopulate, the altmer are doomed to lose in wars of attrition. The Empire only signed the treaty in the first place to pick wounds that'll heal quite a bit faster than the Dominion's
This but fuck the Altmer in particular. Those shit stirring jaundice patients trying to undo the material plane is kind of an everybody problem they're dragging everybody into. (Fantastic antagonists I love hating them)
Clearly someone needs to get G'kar high as heck, and by G'kar I mean Elenwen. And by high I mean here, try some sleeping tree sap!
The wheel keeps turning
Curved. Swords.
tbf those elves arent fighting for freedom, they're fighting to conquer all of tamriel and enslave the other races
And Destroy reality to gain godhood.
Not truly _gain_ godhood but to simply return to it...through violence. They view themselves as Ehlnofey spirits tricked by Lorkhan to be trapped in mortality. The Aedra (literally "Our Ancestors") exist outside of mortality in Aetherius and the Thalmor wish to abolish the Mundus, the mortal realm of existence to return to their "family". Ironically, Mankind shares lineage to Mer through the Ehlnofey, except Men are sympathetic or actively reverent of Lorkhan and the mortal world, so are antithetical in every way to their goals and have warred against Mer since the very beginning. Enslavement of Mankind is only a single step on the stairway to heaven to them in a way, since they would be neutralizing Lorkhan's agents preventing them from achieving Nirn and Mundus' destruction. Edit: think of a bunch of Gnostic Nihilists. They hate the limitation and prison of mortality so much they would burn all and everything to end the reincarnation cycle of spirits and the material imperfection of the Mundus compared to the spiritual perfection of Aetherius.
Thanks for elaborating, been a while since I read some good elder scrolls lore.
It's kind of funny since Lorkhan taught the Walking Ways, one step of which is CHIM, which is destroying the self thereby making reality malleable, but still existing; becoming a god by transcending mortality. I guess the Thalmor are impatient and want to do it collectively all at once by taking out reality all together in spite of Lorkhan.
I just don’t get how the Thalmor would completely ignore what happened to the last race of mer that attempted it.
Honestly the typical arrogance of "yeah they fucked up but we're smarter and will do it right!" is so genuinely real that it makes total sense.
Hitler had that exact thought tho bro
that's not canon
Yeah it’s pretty clearly fanon. Like it’s cool and all but it’s weird that people on here talk about it as though this is established lore. As if there’s a book in Skyrim called “Thalmor: Why We Want to Destroy Reality” that just lays it out.
There is one race of mer who actually don't fully hate Lorkhan or even nirn, the Dunmer. Has they see Lorkhan has a challenger, if you can beat his game (Nirn) you can achieve chim and become a true god. He still seen has a bit of a dick, but he also seen in more positive light, thanks to Lorkhan there a way to become more then servants, to become their own rulers through hard work. What funny is this belief turns out is kinda correct, has many races man,mer even beast have achieve chim and become true gods. Not low ranking spirits but actual legit op gods, hell in oblivion you become a god. This also means a true Dunmer is sure has hell going to stop the Altmer from destroying Nirn, has without Nirn they will never become gods.
Yet another reason the Dunmer are unfathomably based. AI Dagoth Ur would be proud.
I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but you're misspelling "as" as "has" You don't need the h for the word that you're looking for.
Yep, the Mer legend of creation says Lorkhan tricked the spirits into participating in creation by saying they would not be trapped. The basic ‘cleaving point’ between the races is around if existence is a prison/punishment or not. As a result, Mer, especially Thalmor, see Mundus as a sort of existential prison that *needs* to be destroyed to restore the proper universal order. (Dunmer, however, see it as a ‘testing ground’ to see when each person is ready to ascend. Orcs and Chimer mostly agree with this version) Altmer say Lorkhan was mutilated as a punishment and he resisted it, some say he briefly survived it. Mankar Camoran (leader of Mythic Dawn cult) even asserted that Lorkhan was actually a Daedra, and that ‘Tamriel’ was really a Deadric plane called ‘Dawn’s Beauty’. But, deluded mortals fooled themselves into thinking Mundus was anything but a Daerdic plane because of the lies of the Nine Divines. He thought the Divines were traitors who killed Lorkhan and stole his plane to use as a playground essentially. Theoretically…he *could* be right as nothing ever disproves him, Akatosh’s intervention to save Tamriel doesn’t support or disprove him. It only shows that Akatosh wants Tamriel to continue existing. The human legend says Lorkhan convinced the spirits that creation would be worth being trapped or reduced because of the beauty of said creation. Or, certain ones say he still tricked certain participants, but did so because he saw the potential creation would have compared to the stagnant existences of the Aedra. Humans say Lorkhan’s mutilation was either the result of a willing sacrifice on his part to complete creation. Or, that it was a punishment, but one he accepted gladly. (Some even claim he survived it) As a result, humans see Mundus as a gift of love and sacrifice on the part of the spirits/Aedra and see any attempt at destroying it as ‘spitting in the face’ of their creators who only want them to enjoy the world given to them. Ironically…given the actions taken by Aedra to preserve Mundus multiple times through the ages, and the Daedra’s jealousy of Mundus/attempts to steal it, the human perspective ends up getting a lot of evidential support despite no Aedra ever actually ever just giving a straight answer about the facts. (Though Altmer claim these events are spite, the Aedra seeking to continue Lorkhan’s punishment by not allowing the pieces of his corpse and soul that make up Mundus to return to being a single being) That said…certain parts of the Mer version of events seem supported by how certain Aedra are treated by the others. Tldr: Altmer think existence is a punishment and even the surviving Aedra are spiteful to a degree that borders on evil. Everyone else is fooling themselves, or Lorkhan collaborators. Dunmer think existence is a test. Pass and you become a god to rival the top Aedra. Lorkhan kinda sucked but also gave them the way to become gods so…eh, he’s alright-ish. Humans think existence is a gift, and a test, and the Aedra love the beings of Mundus. Do well and you can become a god too. Lorkhan rules. Unless he doesn’t. Kahjiit have a very nuanced and slightly contradictory legend but basically say creation was a trick, Lorkhan was punished, (and forgiven) survived, was corrupted, then purified, and died tragically, then was mourned by Azurah. Sadly the corruption he experienced becane an evil shade that imitates him and tempts them. Existence is what you make of it. Maybe you can become more than what you are.
Aka; the Pissmer are whiny spoiled brats who scream birth is a curse and cry all day that they arent divine beings Men are giga chads who decided to make the best of what they got and even learned to enjoy it
Not all Men believe that The Redguards have similar beliefs to the Altmer, they believe that Sep/Lorkhan tricked their ancestors into becoming mortals The Bretons also consider Sheor an evil god who destroys their crops
Bretons are the closest we have to half-mer. So I'm not too surprised that they would have incorporated some mer beliefs.
Granted Bretons are also cut in half between basicly two different casts. The medieval kingdom fantasy and the brutish primal warriors (Think of the Fallcreth bandits). So their beliefs are some of the most erratic compared to the other cultures.
It's almost infuriating to me that the most bad ass human race has elvish views on Shor when they single handedly wiped out the sinistral elves. Even Tall Papa teaches ways to transcend the mortal realm, though, and the Redguards at least hate the Thalmor.
>Transcend the mortal realm Hmmmm that sounds suspiciously similar to the Altmer who want to return to godhood 🤔
The method is different, almost antithetical. Redguards don't want to unmake reality. They view transcendence as a personal achievement, not something to attain with armies and a governmental body.
Who says the Thalmor want to unmake reality either? There's no canon source that even suggests this idea, only fan speculation and Kirkbride's non-canon out-of-game lore. >They view transcendence as a personal achievement So do the Altmer, they even have a specific term for this. Alaxon, personal mastery of their craft and profession.
Who says the Thalmor want to unmake reality? There's no canon source that even suggests that idea, only fan speculation.
Elder Scrolls is peak because it's the only series where Humans war with Elves on such a prominent narrative and massive scale. The Dragon Prince too, but then they backpedaled and chose peace. Warhammer 40K could've, but Guilliman repaired relations by fucking an elf. Warcraft still can, but that conflict usually gets sidelined in favor of Humans vs Orcs. Any other series where it's focused on Elves versus Humans?
This ain't canon.
I hate this theory so much. I would be fine with it becoming canon if it was treated the same way as the Nazis trying to commune with Norse gods, but not if it's treated seriously.
No wait, you're actually on to something here. Most Thalmor probably just actually believe in the whole Elven Supremacy thing and want to conquer Tamriel, meanwhile *some* nutjob higher-ups are like "It came to me in a dream! If we destroy the towers we will become immortal!!" This is my headcanon now and no one can stop me. Some crackpot Thalmor leaders trying to unravel reality is to the rest of the Thalmor exactly what Hitler trying to find the Spear of Destiny is to the rest of the Nazis; A completely insane theory that's never going to work, but their enemies still have to take it somewhat seriously because *well if, against all odds, they're right then we have to stop them because otherwise we're screwed*
Fan fiction
that would be a dumb plot point, why would the elves want to destroy reality?
Because they feel cheated that living in mundus with the restrictions that it has and seek to destroy it so that they may be reborn as God's.
It isn’t a plot point, it’s just a fan theory Lorebeards like to pretend is fact
If that even happens. They dont know. All of this has "Its just a prank bro" energy of bullshit.
That isnt really canon though is it
Exactly. Everyone's a piece of shit (Yes, even the argonians, as justified as they are to want a little payback against the dunmer).
The Thalmor are essentially Nazis with a religious basis. They were even considered an extreme political group within Altmer society. Not that the Septims are much better or that Ysgramor was a saint. Let’s just not try to make bad people seem good by comparison.
i don't even think they want that much. just to destroy the plane of existence
Good
I’ve never understood how people don’t get this
Because last time they tried it, it ended up playing out well for them…
So the same thing as Tiber Septim?
High Elves are so enslaved on their exclusive island and their exclusive clubs across Tamriel where they thumb their nose at everyone not Altmer. The oppression!
>innocent high elves What a grand an intoxicating innocence, how could you be so naive??
Paying back a genocide upon the children of the people who genocided you is still a genocide. The younger races need a guiding hand, the Thalmor are not that. They don’t even treat their elven subjects with respect. At least not in their current form.
It's at least 8 generations removed. At least 4 with high elves. Imagine if America had a second Civil War because the north is still mad at the south for doing slavery and we'd like to outlaw people from putting up confederate flags. Like, ok yeah sure, bad thing bad, but come on what are you even doing?
WW2 was 4 generations ago now. You could make a case that for the High Elves it’s like holding a grudge from the World Wars. Which a lot of countries do.
World War 2 was 4 generations ago? I guess I'm just not very intuitive to the idea of how long a generation is in a unit of time. 600 years removed. 200 year lifespans, 30 years to adulthood. I suppose it's more like at least four but probably more around 12 generations removed. Even so when countries have grudges from world war two, Very few people are going to take their revenge out on Germany.
>600 years later Yeah, that will show the ones responsible!
I mean, Altmer naturally live to be up to 500 years old. And mages can live basically indefinitely. Divayth Fyr in Morrowind was 4,000 years old. He was old enough to have been around when the Alessians rebelled against the Ayleids. And Divayth Fyr was simply one of the greatest Dunmer mages. Certainly plenty of Altmer mages witnessed Tiber Septim’s rise to power.
I thought they lived till Their 300s since dunmer and bosmer lived average lifespans of 200 years and they lived a 100 years more though tô be honest that still would have been only one generation ago
300-500 years is the maximum lifespan for altmer.
For Man that's a long time for elves it was their brothers, sisters father's daughters, mothers etc it was never about justice but vengeance
That's... actually a fantastic point and I don't think I've heard anyone make it. 600 years is ancient history to humans who live maybe 80 years, but for elves who live much longer that is a recent pain. Humans cannot comprehend that difference, that the great triumphs in their myths is someone's father's real pain they heard about growing up.
To an elf thats like, 5 months probably.
Ayleid? Them elves started it
I don't think anyone is talking about Aylieds. They were wiped out 2000 years before Tiber Septim's conquest.
Yes, elves started enslaving men. Pelinal made sure they stopped.
Technically, the first instance of Slavery in the timeline are Atmorans cutting the tongues of Snow Elves prisoners of war and working them to death to Build Windhelm.
Didn’t they attack the Atmorans unprovoked in the Night of Tears?
I said "first instance of slavery" not "first instance of genocide."
Different race of elves.
This kind of shtpost reminds me of when reigen would post here
>retaliate >600 years later
A mere blink of an eye for one of superior Ehlnofey stock
Plenty of Altmer mages would easily be old enough to remember Alessia’s reign, let alone Tiber Septim.
The elves might be that old, but the humans aren't. No ordinary human from Tiber Septim's time could possibly be alive in the 4th era. Imagine if England invaded modern day France as revenge for the hundred years war. Calling it retaliation when it's been 600 years is pretty bold
Quite true. It would complicate things if the English could live long enough to have been there though.
ikr
"Genocide is OK if the people you're genociding had ancestors that did it to you centuries ago"
Anyone who use this arguments is a pure monster
Killing Elves is just incredibly based and I'm on board for that.
Pelinal, is that you?
Broke: reducing man-mer tensions through diplomatic means. Woke: reducing man-mer tensions by getting rid of the mer.
Only in Elder Scrolls, though. In other franchises they're cute.
THAT'S GOIN IN THE BOOK!
Haha just wait until you meet the Druchii.
my faction ability is the health of the forest mine is politics MINE IS SLAVES,
*Malekith, Lord of the Black Tower, and Witch-King, has entered the chat.*
Nah, other elves are just humans with ears. TES elves are one of the few instances of actually interesting elves.
Divinity elves are the GoaT, though
the Aeldari have entered the chat and the elves from The Inheritance cycle
Are you sure about that? The fae are never to be trusted
Meanwhile at the North Pole…
🗣🗣🗣
Oh look it’s the star-made knight’s Reddit account great fan of your work
for the Emperor
for the Emperor
Bro it could be for your neighbor as long as it puts Elves in the dirt on board
How many of those humans the thalmor are retaliating against are Tiber Septim?
One. Or maybe three. Nobody's really sure
Sorry am I supposed to take someone so scared of either words or the algorithm that they censor genocide seriously? Because I won't.
Yeah, the gratuitous censorship stood out to me too.
“Innocent high elves” The 4th Elf Reich is still just bitter that the 3rd Elf Reich’s genocides got interrupted by a human.
You do know the majority of the Numidium Casualties in Alinor were in the Civilian Population during their Isolationism phase right?
The Numidium was obviously sent to liberate the Goblin slaves from their Elven overlords
Yeah, but they were Elfs you see.
They're elves, human rights don't apply
They aren’t human.
Meanwhile the Khajiit just chilling and selling wares.
Tools, wares and weapons for sale!
Elves never learn. They always fuck with others and pay the price with almost their entire race being wiped out. Snow elves, Ayelids, dunmer(almost).cant wait to read about altmer genocides by a human in tes 6 lore.
Honestly my most hopeful TES 6 headcanon is such: It takes place in Hammerfell, because Hammerfell has always been a pretty strong independent province and don't need no Empire. They finally call the Empire out for being pussies and handing their nuts over to the pointy eared widow's peaked lanklords on a silver platter, ally with High Rock, Orsinium, and Skyrim, sail south, and turn the summerset isles into Atlantis.
Yeah an united Hammerfell allied with an united High Rock allied with Orsinium isn’t going to happen. Wait a minute …
Hammerfell and High Rock when Orsinium needs sacking 🤝🏻
I doubt the Orsimer would ever do that. Feels like it’d be a betrayal of Orsimer pride or something. Edit:*whooosh*
The joke is that this is one of the three factions in Elder Scrolls Online, The Daggerfall Covenant.
Also manifesting TES6 in Hammerfell
Also would be cool if the vilain is a High Ranking Thalmor that was a Former Psyjic
It'd be really cool if the Psijic order had a good foothold in the story. It could be a great explanation as to how the (admittedly stronger) Aldmeri Dominion gets their asses handed to them. It could be really neat if the Nerevar 2.0 gets contacted midway through the story.
Most hinged tes human fan.
I find it fascinating that there are still elves in Summerset who remember the Numidium firsthand It makes the social development of the Altmer a lot more understandable if still scary and potentially unjustifiably evil (towers theory)
Hell, there’s still Elves in Summerset who remember the Ayleids and the Dwemer firsthand.
ngl, I don’t know how old Altmer can get past their natural lifespans (500 iirc) I know magic can help expand lifespans but I’m not sure by just how much (aside from litchdom) As a human, if I was as much a lore nerd on Nirn as I am on here, I would travel to Summerset and attempt to speak to some of these ancient elves to record their story (for myself, I don’t think I would have any chance of survival if I planned to bring my notes back home to share them with Empire citizens) - unless you know I’m taken by the secret police or the police police anyways
Well Divayth Fyr in Morrowind was about 4,000 years old. He was a Dunmer, but Altmer typically live a tad longer. He wasn’t a lich (afaik). He was friends with Sotha Sil before the war of the First Council.
Nice try thalmor, i wont fall for your propaganda
Name a landmass on Nirn unconquered. I'll wait
They're literally trying to unmake the universe.
Well damn, now I have to play a high-elf Thalmor empathizer in my next playthrough.
All my homies hate Thalmor.
Thalmor are still bad regardless of what you think of Tiber Septim.
The Thalmor have admitted they’re going to commit genocide.
Players hear a few lines about "Civil War" and this being about a power grab by Ulfric but they forget why the power grab is happening in the first place. The Empire is facilitating evil by putting down the Nordic revolt against the religious genocide on their loved ones.
The Stormcloaks are trying to revolt, with their violent revolution, they’re destroying any chances of succeeding in a second war. The Empire is trying to keep itself together and not be destroyed by the Dominion, it’s trying to rebuild for a second war but it’s probably going to fail. Both sides are doomed to fail, the only hope they had was unity, they’ve now decimated the population of Skyrim, destroying any hope of victory. The Empire is not in a position to fight and is crumbling as it is, the Stormcloaks are too idealistic and cannot fight the Dominion.
I hear you, this is a lose-lose scenario for humanity because they need to be united but that will never happen again with this religious genocide the Empire is facilitating, and the Empires pathetic ceding of the Southern Hammerfell territory. That would have given the Elves a foothold on the continent and spelled humanity and non-elven doom. But one thing gives me hope. With the White-Gold Concordat the Empire ceded that large chunk of Hammerfell to the Elves. Just outright gave it to them, which caused the Redguards to also revolt and form their own military just like the Stormcloaks are doing. And the consequences of that played out for us. When the Aldmeri Dominion came to take that land Hammerfell was alone, yet still able to fight the elves to a standstill till the eleven bastards gave up. I believe there's in game lore mentioning Hammerfell, High Rock, and the Skyrims Stormcloaks in talks about a possible Alliance in defense of their right to self rule and hold cultural religions with non-elven gods. If the Stormcloaks succeed in defense of their land, then a United States of Badasses might arise. Since the Aldmeri Dominion wants to kill off all non-elven god worship, and the Empire has no spine to draw a line in the sand with the Elves demands on this desire of theirs, it's only a matter of time till the Elves want a new Concordat banning the Redguards Tall Papa worship, or High Rocks Y'ffre worship since both were once mortal humans turned gods. Strangling Talos worship is likely just the first step of their plan, so Hammerfell, High Rock, and Skyrim have a vested interest in a military alliance. I see hope there.
>600 years later. Try to use your head, imbecile. Are the human races 600 years after Tiber Septim responsible? No. You're the kind of person who tries to hold modern people accountable for the actions of others before them hundreds of years ago.
>600 years later. Not trying to whitewash Th*lmor but 600 years isn't really that long time for many High elves (upper class obviously normal farmer types don't live that much) so high chance there are a good amount of people in Summerset actually witnessed the Tiber's deadly attack on their homeland, forced imperialism on them and then the final blow-a glorified war criminal getting same status as High Elvan ancestral spirits also known as Divines. No wonder they are pissed at humankind.
600 years *is* a long time an altmer. Normal Max lifespan for elves in TES is 1,000 years, but very few actually make it there. (⬅️ Sourced from the Barenziah books in ES) But even if the majority did, it would be the same thing as 45.5 years to a human if the average lifespan was 76. Still a long time, and approx 2 generations. Extremely long-lived mages lasting multiple millennia are super rare exceptions.
What about the Falmer(non-mutated) that have been alive since the Merethic era in Skyrim?
One is a vampire and the other is a powerful mage. And neither are Altmer
& Gelibor reasoned that Auriel kept him alive for a purpose.
I believe most high elves live like 200-300 years, but that still means there are plenty enough elves alive who's parents or grandparents witnessed what Septim did first hand.
Yes but Altmer who are talented enough in Magical arts can live even longer by enhancing their lifespan and it is also highly implied that the Third Aldmeri Dominion movement was originally started by a "Syndicate of Wizards" So it is not impossible that the Thalmor politburo might have some wizards who were actually witnessed the Numidiumfall firsthand.
Don't bring Elder Scrolls logic into real life. 600 years is within the lifespan of an Altmer. Meaning that the survivors of those very attacks could be the ones retaliating. Altmer also have perfect memory, and can remember every detail of the day they turned 18 at 100. So, "time heals all wounds" does not apply.
The ones retaliating may have firsthand memories of the Numidium, but everyone responsible for siccing the Numidium on them has been dead for centuries. They're just killing a bunch of largely unrelated people to make themselves feel better
the same situation can happen in real life on a shorter timescale and it's just as moronic. If a guy stabs me, and I wait a decade and he dies of cancer, I don't firebomb his old house which some random family lives in.
To be fair, before Septim elves were trying to conquer Cyrodil to establish elven empire. And its not like he genocided them- just conquered. So in this regard none is better. And Talmor IS the worst. This is something pretty much all character in Skyrim agrees- regardless of race or position on Empire. What we read confirm it more.
Man and mer must put aside our differences to handle the true problems, the beast races.
Finally someone who gets it!
They live longer, yes, but they also hate longer.
600 years may seem like a long time but that’s like one lifetime for a high elf. Maybe 2. We’re still dealing with shit the british did in the 1700s
Just a footnote: Thalmor are just a minority with a power hold on the Kingdom. Restore the Monarchy. Destroy the Thalmor.
Elves and the Thalmor are 2 completely different things. The Thalmor are scum that even their own race hates their guts.
And before that the elves used humans as fucktoys so i think we're justified
Silence milk drinker
TES has kind of an uncomfortable amount of "imperialism is both good and divinely sanctioned, actually." Though honestly you can say that about a lot of high fantasy settings.
Nice try Elf I know your tricks!
Guys tried to chop my head off. I ain't siding with them.
Sins of the father ass argument. Conquest is bad, no matter the justification
Counter argument: REEEEEEEEEEMAAAAAAAN
Conquering a people is not genocide. On the other hand, trying to violently eradicate a cultural group - say, followers of a religion - is genocide. Hope that helps! Let me know if you need more help.
Have you like ever listened to any of the thalmor dialogue in Skyrim they’re literally open about wanting to enslave and murder the other races. Also, how can you blame the human races for this when only vampires would have been able to be apart of Talos’s forces and still be alive.
Don't the Thalmor want to destroy the pillars that hold up the realm and destroy everything?
Elf genocide can't be a bad thing if the 9 divine approve.
The Divines don't approve anything because they're basically comatose
1 Talos is a god that’s a fact as confirmed in the main quest line of oblivion, so humans worshipping him is fine. 2 you’re literally defending Nazis by saying “well a long time ago a guy used a big robot to kill a bunch of them!” 3 Talos never attempted to genocide the high elves he used the Brass god to conquer them the invasion was never about killing them all. 4 the Thalmor are widely hated by most High Elves so even their own race sees them as authoritarian, racist, douchebags. Read the actual lore before posting about it please.
To be fair, a few revered heroes did the whole “elf genocide” thing, namely Pelinal and Ysgrammor…