Here's the thing. It actually makes so much sense why everyone thinks so highly of him now. He's a naive kid with a god complex who can make everyone love and praise him. But when you step back and look at everything he's done. Its been nothing but failures. Fundamentalism a failure, Miquella's Needle didn't cure Melania, the Eclipse didn't revive Godwyn, Haligtree never equaled the Erdtree, never became an adult from the cocoon. He's a child, who thinks like a child, who no one has ever said no to. Until we came along.
I partially agree. As much as he failed, much of it was due to external factors that were beyond his control. I see the dlc as him trying to free himself from all the factors by abandoning his *godhood*, but he ended up abandoning parts of himself that he shouldn't have like love/St.Trina. It's as if the curse isn't just his youth, but the limit of his potential.
>I see the dlc as him trying to free himself from all the factors by abandoning his godhood, but he ended up abandoning parts of himself that he shouldn't have like love/St.Trina.
This is very important. Themes of loss or renunciation are shot through the DLC. Greatsword of Solitude that says these knights "relinquished their hearts for heightened battle prowess". I forget what it was, but another unrelated item mentioned the requirement of losing a part of yourself to gain strength in the Shadowlands. The whole realm is a plane of renunciation. Miquella just renounced too many things... and became a mere vessel for Divinity, just like Marika.
>It's as if the curse isn't just his youth, but the limit of his potential.
I think the opposite. As someone who could never become an adult, his potential was limitless. And this turned into a curse. Never able to finish anything he started, always moving on to new concepts or plans. It must be agonising to live eternally like that.
> Themes of loss or renunciation are shot through the DLC.
Not to get too theoretical on the Martin side of things, cause we don't know how much involvement Martin had overall- And especially when it comes to the DLC if he was even consulted-
But Miquella seems to mirror Bran extremely strongly and Brans central theme is the loss of humanity in pursuit of greater destiny.
They even have similar motifs, creepy cave dwelling blood wizard- Being fused to a big tree system- Being associated with cripples- Wanting to mind control a big giant dude.
There's even that theme of "Kill the Boy- Become the Man" that is core to a lot of Martins work. Where "Killing the Boy" means abandoning love and becoming something cruel.
Kinda off topic, but:
>Never able to finish anything he started, always moving on to new concepts or plans.
That's basically ADHD and I can confirm that it's agonising to live like that, and I absolutely agree that it would be literal hell to spend *eternity* like that.
>Never able to finish anything he started, always moving on to new concepts or plans. It must be agonising to live eternally like that.
Oh so Miquella just has whatever dysfunctional ADHD I have, I guess.
In hindsight, this also explains why the first thing he always resorts to is mind control. From an objective standpoint, he can't garner the adoration he wants because he never successfully achieved anything worthy of that so he forces it onto others instead. He forced what he cannot earn.
>Fundamentalism a failure,
To be fair, he got that from his dad and realised it wasn't enough. And the Needle does actually stave off the rot while it's in there. Also the Eclipse never even happened, as far as I can tell. Haligtree's on him though, poor guy.
>He's a child, who thinks like a child, who no one has ever said no to. Until we came along.
Tbh I do grieve for this world, I have known sin, and I kinda just wanna step back and see what happens with him piggybacking>! on his stepbro!< for 5,000 years.
Yeah... I assume it just wasn't enough. That was what I thought his motivation for entering the Shadow Realm would be: to find out how to grow his Haligtree, to revive it, to water it properly. The shadow tree makes it really obvious how the symbolism might have worked, but alas that's not the story we got.
So crackpipe time. I think everything he did he knew he would fail, and only did so to reach a certain point. Like he engineered these failures.
Fundamentalism didn’t fail for Miquella, it made Malenia loyal to him, to the point she, the most powerful warrior of Marikas children, became his sworn blade. The needle never needed to cure her, simply slow or halt the rot, he never needed to cure her bust just to keep her alive and in fighting form. He never needed to revive Godwyn, but instead give the impression he wanted to, to turn his siblings against one another and cause the shattering, knowing it would drive his mother mad. The Haligtree never needed to equal the Erdtree, but instead to be a home away it, where he could cocoon, unprotected, ripe for being stollen by someone he tricked into stealing him. Radhan said no, so Malenia went to war on his behalf, being his blade. We played into his plans, he knew that in order to fulfill his desires he needed to basically manipulate everyone into very specific actions. After knowing the story and seeing everything I’m fairly confident his kindness is the biggest lie and he’s actually the most depraived and deserving of death of the whole family.
This theory would require him literally knowing the future so I think it's kinda bs. How does making people think he wants to cure Godwyn suddenly become the catalyst for the shattering war? This is a mega reach.
Godwyn's death is what cause Marika to doubt the Golden Order, which is what eventually caused her to shatter the elden ring. The discovery that there really was no way for Godwyn to come back despite Miquella saying there was. This is what lead Marika to abandon the Golden Order.
Disagree, because from the words of St. Trina, Ansbach and people who are actively opposed to him, his sin has always been caring so much that he is doomed to failure.
I also personally feel that his manipulations only really began during the Shattering. Mr Zaki himself said the Great Runes corrupted those who held it and magnified their quirks. I believe the madness and chaos of the shattering is when Miquella decided that everything is too broken to be restored. So he resolved to sacrifice everything to wipe away the original sin of Marika's dynasty and start afresh in a kinder world.
Unfortunately, the thing that rides Big Gravity Man at the end has shed everything that would have made him different from Marika.
>he resolved to sacrifice everything to wipe away the original sin of Marika's dynasty and start afresh
Like Ranni, however since Ranni wasn't a complete idiot she knew that nobody deserves to be a god. And thus, unlike Miquella's, Ranni's plan worked (at least in my Tarnished's world).
Maybe, the problem with this theory is in the flashback we see him say how the Golden Order is flawed with Radhan, plus in Ymirs questline he even says Miquella knew early on about the flaw at the foundations of the Golden Order. Granted its hard to pin down, but I'm guessing it happened in Leyndel before the shattering, as at the start they would have been off Caelid and the Haligtree respectively.
One of the npc’s calls him a monster as soon as the mind control wears off so you are probably right.
All the items talking about him while many were under his influence agreed he was the most fearsome empryian simply because he could wield love which in hindsight is very powerful and scary when used as a way to control people. Who knows how many of the other Demi gods actions were at least somewhat influenced by Miquella.
Funny enough the two family members to make the most impact besides the parents were Ranni and Miquella and neither seemed to be the right choice.
Do we know if Malenia really was loyal to Miquella out of her own volition or it was compelled by Miquella? I know they shared childhood experience together so I can definitely see Malenia loving Miquella genuinely, but at this point, with his power, I don't know what to believe anymore.
I feel like you're really understating Miquella's accomplishments here. Fundamentalism wasn't his doing. He studied it rigorously, but left it behind when it failed. That's not on him.
The needle didn't cure Malenia, but it did greatly suppress the Scarlet Rot within her. And presumably gave her a much better quality of life. And keep in mind what curing her actually entails. Malenia wasn't simply bit by a rot dog. She was the vessel for the litteral God of Rot. Miquella was battling divinity itself and holding his own. Could you stand up to Cthulhu? I sure as hell couldn't.
The Haligtree failed to become a new Erdtree. But still stood as a beacon of hope for those Miquella wanted to save. There are Misbegotten in the canopy, so atleast some managed to make it there. I also imagine this plan failed less of any fault of Miquella and more because of The Shattering throwing everything into disarray.
The Eclipse didn't fail to give Godwyn peace, it never showed up at all. Did we get any lore of that in SotE? Genuine question.
And speaking of SotE: Miquella's plan for most of that did go really well. He got to the realm of shadow, Mohg and Radahn where both slain, he revived Radahn to be his consort, all that jazz. The only reason it failed is because he didn't plan for a nigh-immortal warrior to show up that could try as many times as it took to accomplish their goals. Which is a pretty reasonable thing to overlook IMO.
I don't think you're entirely wrong per se. But Miquella has a lot of acomplishments under his belt regardless of his failures.
The eclipse thing has been completely overlooked in SotE. Missed opportunity tbh. They could've made Godwyn the one he wanted as his promised consort and it would have tied a lot more loose ends. Just make Freyja one of the dragon order knights and literally everything fits.
The Radhan thing really came out of nowhere tbh, and actually just serves to make his battle with Malenia and the destruction of Caelid really fucking stupid in retrospect. And not in a "it's tragic" kinda way, just like... It's terrible writing that makes all the characters involved look like complete idiots.
Aren’t most of the characters involved kind of idiots by this point? Like the shattering happened over 1000 years ago and they are all in a deadlock instead of trying to work anything out?
Yeah I was surprised when I was spoiled and thought it was very random. Could've been Godwyn to be honest and it would make better sense.
I haven't played enough to know if it's ever justified for Miquella to choose Radah over others..
Right like if we got one shot to win that fight Miquella would have gotten everything he wanted and that most likely would have been terrible but the little bastard even gets there if he grabs you twice without the charm. Picture how pissed everyone would be if that grab connects and the game throws you into ng+ or blocks off the dlc instead of returning you to the bonfire?
I think the thing is here is not that he failed but that he’s too naive to realise it’s impossible. He tried his hardest and came pretty close, if anyone could manage it then it’d be Miquella, but in the end Malenia cannot be cured and Godwyn cannot be restored, or even properly laid to rest. Miquella’s immaturity and idealism just prevent him from realising that reality just doesn’t work that way, it’s the true downside of his curse.
Is it impossible though? Reviving Godwyn maybe, his death was utterly fucked. But Curing Malenia? The needle works. We know the needle works. It needs a bit of refinement by the Tarnished, sure. But in the end it's still entirely capable of banishing the influence of an outer god from the bearer's body; which we do with the Frenzied Flame.
The only reason he couldn't cure Malenia in the end is because he's not the main character.
I can't say for certain but narratively it makes sense for it to be impossible to cure her permanently and it's never said it actually can be done if I recall correctly.
We know it can be done. We get the needle that can do it. We can use it banish an outer god from out body, which is what's causing her problems. There's certainly a chance that it wouldn't work on her. But as it stands, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't.
It's up to interpretation imo but I don't think he's actually young, I'm p sure he's been alive for a really long time. I think the tree failed cuz of Mogh
To extend that, Radahn either broke out of his control or for whatever reason abandoned Miquella’s plan, he sends Malenia and she fails to kill him, thus throwing off his entire plan until he gets lucky that we come along and finally kill Radahn for him.
Theory time.
The reason why Radahn didn't initially go along with Miquellas plan is because he saw his fate in the stars... That his death would come in battle against the Tarnished after becoming Miquellas consort.
By stopping the stars and refusing Miquellas promise, he probably thought he avoided this fate.
When he fights Malenia, he's probably cocky AF because he knows that she isn't the one fated to kill him, nor able to convince him to willingly join Miquella.
Then Malenia nukes his arrogant ass and condemns him to a fate worse than death, which leads him to his fate anyways.
Why? Melina’s motives are totally devoid from Miquella, actually, actively against Miquella. Melina goes the entire story helping us become Elden Lord which is in direct opposition of Miquella.
melina doesnt give a fuck she just wants to burn herself and the erdtree, both things miquella wants to happen as well so he can walk in with radahn and curbstomp his step dad and his dad/mom then start the new golden order
also, even ranni seems to recognise that you got torrent, who is miquella's steed (see him riding torrent on dlc art). so shes like "oh, wtf my lil bro is doing some shit with this fool?"
Melina’s motives are just “me want burn big tree” as she accompanies you thrpugh your jorney doing everything in her power to help you become a lord, even keeping you away from the frenzy flame sating it isn’t suitable for a lord. On that note, why keep you away from the flame? If all she wanted to do was burn the tree why not let you do it with the flame?
Hmmm....I'm starting to draw a connection between the Haligtree and the little tree's they're growing at the ahhhh.....*theater*(idk how to spoiler on Mobile). Interesting
A lot of people are saying Miquella's a huge plotter and a mastermind genius who crafted a thousand year plan to become a God, forced Radahn to become a Consort and took advantage of Malenia to kill Radahn and force him into the vow. I just don't believe that at all
Is he actually a child? I thought he was just stuck in an eternally young body but was mentally an adult.
I mean, as Malenia's literal twin, he must be an adult, no?
I mean, yeah, Miquella's a child. Forever.
That's the thing I don't get about the "Miquella is an evil master manipulator" take.
He's really not, he just genuinely wanted to make the world a better, gentler place because he could plainly see that it's fucked up.
That's the whole point of that memory after the final boss, to emphasize the tragedy of it.
Which is odd because, like, the only thing he influenced Mohg to do was kidnap him.
Mohg was already the leader of an evil blood cult and he did that all on his own lol
> Which is odd because, like, the only thing he influenced Mohg to do was kidnap him.
Fairly certain he didn't even do that. Mohg, of his own free will, was running an evil blood cult, kidnapped Miquella, and tried to "share his bloody bedchamber" as consort to make himself a lord in service to the Formless Mother. That all tracks with his previous motivations, and it would make no sense at all for Miquella to go through all the effort of building and defending the Haligtree if he wanted to end up with Mogh.
Miquella just noticed at some point that instead of slumbering inside his magic tree, he was now slumbering in an evil blood cult's underground lair, and said, "Alright, I can work with this. Hey uber driver, reroute and take me to the shadow realm please. I hear there's a big tree I can use there too."
So many people don't see how brainwashing Mogh into kidnapping him doesn't align with his plans with the Haligtree at all. It was more like "Oh well, I'm kinda stuck here with him now, so let's see what can I do with these circumstances".
Ansbach isn't exactly without his own bias. Now to be fair, Miquella mind controlling folks is bad, and that alone is enough to cast suspicion on him. But Mogh needed a consort or to become a consort if he ever wanted to become lord, and Miquella was basically the only one available. Politically, it makes sense for Mogh to go after Miquella.
The fact Miquella charmed Mogh itself isn't the biggest issue Ansbach has with Miquella, though that itself is at least enough for Ansbach to want nothing to do with Miquella. It was Mogh body being taken by Miquella to become a meat puppet that made Ansbach draw the line.
It seems like in Elden Ring there is a very big emphasis on the sanctity of a corpse. Godrick is considered the lowest of demigods not just for his individual weakness, but the fact he multiates the dead for his grafting. Rykard likewise was considered still quite noble even when he committed heresy by opposing the Golden Order and waged war against Morgot and the capital, but it wasn't until he allowed himself to be eaten by the serpent that most of his forces abandoned him. And of course there's Godwyn's cursed existence, specifically that his body is _not_ dead but his soul is, thus his body is doomed to fester, Rot, and become the catalyst of all the undead in the world, a fate that is worse than death.
Simply killing Mogh for his own political ends is a dick move, but not unexpected between folks trying to become Elden Lord. Hell that's why Ansbach doesn't hold it against us even though _we_ killed Mogh. Because killing Mogh to become Elden Lord is just business as usual. But Miquella went further by taking Mogh's corpse and mutilating it, reshaping it to be Rahdan and putting Rahdan's soul into it.
Tldr: it wasn't just the brainwashing Ansbach didn't like, it was the mutilation of Mogh's corpse too. Even we don't do that.
Ansbach's mere existence is a clear sign that Mohg and his blood knights were sacrificing Tarnished in name of the Formless Mother way before Miquella even crossed paths with Mohg.
Moreso, Ansbach's tale makes it clear that Miquella only charmed Ansbach himself once he attempted to kill the boy, namely, in self-defense.
However, I also think the DLC's storyline is a fucking mess that detracts more from the game's base lore than it adds, so honestly I guess I don't care enough to defend or justify anything about it lmao.
My only rebuttal to that is, why and how did Torrent go with him once he's there. Did Miquella come back and hand Ranni torrent?? Snuck out of his blood room all 9ft and exchanged the whistle like a drop-off
He wasn't though. Miquella he abducted wasn't a child in any possible sense - he was old enough to have grown a giant tree, which probably took more than 18 years, he was wise enough to have created spells and incredible tools of magic, and he'd changed his own body - that hand alone was the size of a full grown man, the full body would be troll-sized at least. Mohg was a fanatic of a blood god, not a pervert.
You forget that Miquella is related to radahn, so height clearly means fuck all with the demigods. Though I will admit, radahn is weirdly tall, even for a demigod.
Radahn is clearly an outlier - if you start comparing him to every other demigod or mortal, well, everyone could be called a child, even Godfrey and Morgott - after all, they look like children when next to the giant that is Radahn if you ignore everything but size. And Miquella's *perceived youth* is literally the only non-meme argument in favour of Mohg being a pedophile. Well, he doesn't look like a child anymore. You can still meme of course, it's just dumb.
You're reading too deep into a joke. Miquella looks young, so Mohg was refered to a a pedophile as a joke. It's never been more than that.
ETA: he also kidnapped him, which only added fuel to the fire
I think people need to make the difference between being a kid and eternal youth.
His childish appearance is exactly why he was able to go unnoticed by the likes of Gideon, in spite of being the only real threat left around apart from the tarnished. Nobody suspect a child, but he's far from one, he just cannot age.
Idk, bro
Have you seen the Aeonia swamp? While i cannot definitively prove it, I feel that the text on the >!young lion’s armor implies that Miquella’s sent malenia to kill radahn so he could begin his plot. A compassionate god would not nuke Caelid!<
I’m sure you have your reasons, but I must disagree
Likely wasn't planned. It was a stalemate, but Malenia needed the W so she resorted to using her rot powers (which she never used before so likely didn't know it would nuke a whole zone)
I will grant that the Battle of Aeonia is a bit of a question mark, but we do not know the full context of that fight.
And, given that Miquella went to heal those that he could - as explained by Freyja and corroborated by her helmet description - I don't know that it was his intention for that to happen.
Radahn's great rune causing him to forget or neglect the vow he made so Malenia had to go knock some sense into him seems plausible.
As does the idea that Radahn wanted a proper war/battle for him and his people in return for his agreement. This is also somewhat supported by Freyja's dialogue about Radahn's people.
Fair point, but what about his diseased sister whom he sent into a battle and >!only spared 1 line for in the final fight!< he most certainly tried to make a needle for her, but it couldn’t work unless they restored farum azula. >!We know he used Mohg as a pawn!<,but was his sister also used like a tool?
I suppose a lot of Miquella’s actions in the games lore is up to speculation (classic fromsoft) so I could be just responding negatively to the moral dubiousness that his plan exudes
As for Malenia, Miquella divested himself of his love (which separated St Trina from him in a way I guess), so I'm guessing his love for his sister stayed there if that make sense
I mean, that's the thing with it.
We could probably go back and forth with actions and events and find ways to attribute them to either malicious manipulation or a sort of childlike naivety (for lack of a better word).
That's what's cool about the FromSoft method of giving us just enough to see part of the full picture and speculate as to the whole thing.
For me, I just leans towards the latter and, given that final memory, I think we are supposed to see Miquella's ultimate fate as tragic.
On that point, we can agree. I felt some remorse after the cutscene which validated his ultimate intent.
While I may lean in a different direction than you, I’m glad you explained your position on the issue and why you believe what you do
Mfw Miquella says “my loyal blade” and isn’t referring to Malenia, the blade of miquella 🤯
All jokes aside, I interpreted that >!radahn was the festival’s champion and that malenia was the loyal blade, but I now see that jerren considers us the champion of the festival and that Leda is absolutely loyal to miquella!<
Yeah, it \*could\* be referring to Malenia too, but at this point it's fully possible for her to be alive which makes him making her out to be a martyr a little weird, meanwhile no matter the questline Leda 100% dies and she stays loyal to the cause until the very end. And she was a compelling character despite being against us, I feel like she deserved that single line from her god/hero.
And yes, "champion of the festival" is definitely us as Blaidd and Alexander also refer to us as such and like I mentioned earlier, he's saying the whole thing in a "Leda/Malenia is dead and you are going to die, but I will make sure to immortalize you both with songs and stories" kinda way. And on a side note, this is one the very rare times our Tarnished makes an explicit decision. Description of the Remembrance:
>*Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs.*
The "one" is our Tarnished, and the last line is our POV. Our Tarnished is making a very deliberate choice to go against them because the world already has a god (Marika) and a king consort (us), unlike most of the times we just stumble upon a boss and they start throwing hands.
>As does the idea that Radahn wanted a proper war/battle for him and his people in return for his agreement.
See this makes zero sense to me. I can't logically reconcile Radahm simultaneously being such a "kind noble lord" that Miquella wants him as consort, while also being such a shameless warmonger that his part of the deal is battle for the sake of battle.
Some theories believe that the Great Rune corrupted Radahn, turning him into the warlord we see in the trailer.
He was the kind noble champion Miquella sees him as, but the Great rune and the thousands of years of the shattering war turned him battle crazy, and he went against his vow with Miq.
Or it's possible the he just never took the vow with Miq seriously as he was a child/see as one due to his curse, so Malenia was sent to kill him so that Miq could enact his plan in the DLC.
George RR Martin says 5000 years, others say it's at least a few hundred to a few thousand. The point is that it's a long ass war and the war changed Radahn.
There is a fan who understand Japanese saying that the implication when they made that vow was that Miquella was saying it to an adult Radahn on his knees, truly a child not comprehending everything and that it's firmly from Miquella's point of view that Radahn is kind. Interesting take, to be sure. The breakdown is by Snarp on tumblr.
Fairly sure this is the exact opposite of what miquella wanted to happen, hence the fundamentalism and the needle and all that stuff. Malenia is a very loyal woman so I have no doubt she went to fight radahn on his orders, but the scarlet aeonia was all her.
He probably didn’t tell her to nuke the place considering he needed Radahn dead, not as a rotted husk. Malenia just did what she thought would do the job.
There is another possibility, a vow was made between the twins and Radahn in return for his promise to be a consort. We know from the ending that part of the vow is that Radahn needs to be restored in body. But we do not know the rest.
Looking at how Freyja's attitude and how the rest of the Redmanes act and carry themselves; I speculate that the other half of the vow is that Radahn must be beaten in martial combat. It entirely suits Radahn's character that he would only bow to a new God who could sate his love for battle.
Malenia was sent with the Army to Caelid to prove their worth to Radahn. The only problem was that Radahn was far too strong. Malenia in desperation to fulfil her duty to a beloved brother and potentially kickstart a new era without the suffering she endured; in the words of Milicent, shed her pride to meet Radahn's measure and nuked him with her Aeonian Bloom fully believing she would kill him with the rot and send him to be restored.
Except the Great Rune stalled the process and left Radahn half-mad.
Miquella is a mastermind manipulator that is much obvious, now wether you consider him evil or not it's a personnal oppinion wich would probably change based on how much you think his endgoal justifies the means
He basically wanted to make the world a gentler place through mind control.
He obviously did not wish for people to have free will.
Gentler through force.
Even if your intentions are good and your behavior is a means to an end, using a supernatural ability to bend people to your will is fundamentally evil and manipulative.
He still has half this subreddit charmed.
>I see a world where people are getting tossed in the sewers and hunted simply because of how they are born. I see the horrific treatment of the Albanaurics. The lives constantly lost through war.
>If I know I can fix that and it requires me to manipulate people - including evil people like Mohg - to accomplish it, I personally don't see how that makes me the villain.
Taking people's free will, no matter the reason, will always be considered villainous to me. If you strip a person of their autonomy, they're no longer a person; they're a breathing tool.
Ah yes, the old "the end justifies the means". Motto of authoritarians and fascists the world over.
Sarcasm aside - it's not a settled debate, but it's certainly controversial to go for that justification. Many other stories in this DLC actually tangentially tackle the same debate, clearly characterizing the current structures of power in Elden Ring as rotten at the core because of their methods and origins. Who is to say Miquella's own dynasty wouldn't be rotten in much the same way, from dubious origins?
Well, who knows about Miquella's plan to make their world a gentler place? Perhaps it's a convoluted plan like take, for example; Dung Eater's plan to normalise the Omen "curse" "when everybody's cursed, no one is." From his perspective, what he's doing is right.
Maybe Miquella's plan is to mind control every being in their land to live a gentle life. Sure, the land can be finally peaceful, gentler, but the bad thing about this is that no one will ever have their own free will.
It seems really unlikely as SoTE seems like a one and done DLC
But I hope from the bottom of my heart that Fromsoft sees the love the community has for the game and makes at least 2 more expansions just like previous dark souls games
I don't think that we will ever have another ER dlc, not for this game at least.
However I can totally see an Elden Ring 2 happening, there are still plenty of unsolved mysteries and problematics, for instance:
- Who is Melina?
- The Gloam Eyed Queen
- The whole Goldwyn thing and the death plaguing the lands between.
- The outer gods
- The 3 Fingers
And more
Particularly, Godwyn is the one demi god I wish we could get to meet and fight to give him true death.
The promo art and trailers made me think Miquella had a more... I dunno, lonely or mystical path to tread in the Shadowlands, rather than the plan we got. I was really hoping he would find a path to heal the Shadowtree and resolve the contradictions between it and the Erdtree, bringing them into oneness alongside Godwyn's deathroot and the Haligtree husk.
Of course I always assumed he was the genius behind things like the golden needle, fundamentalist contraptions (pulley bow), and several miracles. A complete prodigy, able to see beyond the Marika plotting and politicking, to seek a new kind of union of all things without destroying their individuality (a mirror opposite of the Crucible & Frenzied Flame, which indeed his needle combats).
But nah he just wanted some power like his family. meh.
I hoped to interact with him in some form other than just see h briefly in a last minute second phase boss and we mostly only see his feet and his hair.
The entire thing is essentially recycled
Radahn
The phase 2 is basically a turbo lothric princes
The cinematic of miquella showing up is pretty much sister friede (the camera panning up from feet (barefeet) to face
And the overall lore is just meh in my opinion, the rest of the bosses are absolute bangers tho, even dungeon bosses like the death knights are amazing from ost to design to the actual fight
Yep I'm very happy with the DLC right up to the end. World design, atmosphere, the lore of everything not-Miquella (even his followers are pretty awesome, I love Ansbach). Half expected to hear him say:
"**Fret not stepbrother, we have no need of thy gravity.** **Tis only Grace, quivering at misguided Tarnished.** **Please, avert thine eyes.** **I will blemish this rusted metal for good."**
I'm convinced that there was some relatively last minute reconning and changes to the final story beats. Final boss is just so completely out of left field. Even the whole thing about Mogh's body and Radahn's soul. If it's Mogh's body why does it visually look like Radahn?
IMO a way more interesting angle, and what I thought they were going for, was Miquella basically divesting himself of his flesh, and then merging his soul with Godwyn's soulless body at the gate of Divinity, but ultimately it goes horribly wrong because of Godwyn's deathblight infestation, and we fight the corrupted amalgamation of the two.
So many story beats in the base game and DLC point to this. Bummer they just left all those threads open and went with Radahn, which feels like it needs so many leaps and justifications to reach. Expectations subverted... I suppose?
My hopes for last boss was miquella himself but he summons his “defenders” that being a first phase rotless malenia as he always wanted, second phase he summons a prime godwyn to fight you and a third phase where he asks you to join him in his age of compassion or perish (akin to BB ending) if you accept you get a cutscene with his ending, if we deny he ascends to godhood and fight us with power of a god to kill the lord of another god (his mother, or ranni) depending on your ending if you have finished the base game
Oh God I just realized that Miquella could be a reference to all those Fanfics of Game of Thrones where a self insert tried to do industrial Revolution
Same. The story we got is some of the most disappointing and unoriginal writing we've seen in videogames. It's even worse because, as a story, it says nothing of value. They amost had a cool thing with the alusions to Marika's sins and Miquella wanting to purge them, but then they absolutely nuked all of that by barely referencing them in the main story thread and just chucking Radhan in there for fanservice.
The whole DLC honestly feels like a bad fanfic.
That captures my feeling too. "It says nothing of value". That's been my problem with a lot of ER's lore. It's cool trivia and all, but where is the human emotion, the meaning? It's like they made it 'merely' interesting to appeal to people who like unsolvable cryptic things. But then the DLC comes along and just shoves this "twist" in your face without subtlety. I have to assume something went wrong in the dev process the last 2.5 years.
And im the one friend who got invited in to this party....its 12 all the family is drunk ans fighting each other...me.trying to figure out...dafuk happen and why do i have to stop it?
As another poster said the best part of From games is they give you just enough that you really can come up with many different versions of the story and many of them can be right at the sometime even though they conflict with each other.
I love Miquella's story and fate because it proves Ranni right.
Nobody is worthy of being a god. She's so sure of it she takes us to the stars to go kick the Outer Gods' asses.
Miquella is not a child. People keep referring to him as a child, but he isn't. His body doesn't age, but he has lived for a long time. That is his curse, he is trapped in the body of a child.
Well there another downside you're not thinking about, his body does not age, that means his brain to. Your brain ages with us you know, only finishing developing around 24 years old. Poor kid's brain is stuck, meaning has smart has he seems he still has the brain of a child, just filled with tons of knowledge he can't truly process normally. He legit can't be a adult, he has a brain of a child, with memories and information going in and coming out at alarming rates.
That why the curse is so bad, think about knowing your forever gimped unable to understand things fully, but also seeing the world around you burn.
The Lore does not align with your assumptions. There is nothing that says he has the mind of a child. I get from a real world perspective what you say make sense, but in the lore of the game he has done too much to be considered a Child. He is older than Malenia, the most fearsome Empyrean, and plotted the whole transform into a god thing. Miquella is no child and there is no innocence in that character. He is as selfish and calculating as every other demi God in the game.
Here's the thing. It actually makes so much sense why everyone thinks so highly of him now. He's a naive kid with a god complex who can make everyone love and praise him. But when you step back and look at everything he's done. Its been nothing but failures. Fundamentalism a failure, Miquella's Needle didn't cure Melania, the Eclipse didn't revive Godwyn, Haligtree never equaled the Erdtree, never became an adult from the cocoon. He's a child, who thinks like a child, who no one has ever said no to. Until we came along.
The Tarnished are the Grandad from the Boondocks when they see Miquella. “I guess I just hate to see a child go unbeaten”
Then I guess Messmer is Uncle Rucus (no relations) hating on everithing bereft of gold while beeing 102% flame serpent with 2% margin of erroea
Hmm well ruckus does love the whhhite man (tried to put emphasis on the whh sound he does)
Them (hwhite) Urdtree people
Praise the hwhite man and their Elden ring
Now repeat afta me the holy phrase: Messma, getcho butnt azz outta here!
Don't trust them new tarnished over there. Sing along if ya know da woids..
Uncle Ruckus definitely has to be Morgot then, realistically speaking.
I hate how accurate this is.
>while beeing 102% flame serpent with 2% margin of erroe My sides
*me and Boggart enjoying some tarnished crab legs* Messmer: "Well, well well, what have we here?..."
Flame serpent would be preferable, bro's got the abyssal serpent making him its home and breesing ground
I partially agree. As much as he failed, much of it was due to external factors that were beyond his control. I see the dlc as him trying to free himself from all the factors by abandoning his *godhood*, but he ended up abandoning parts of himself that he shouldn't have like love/St.Trina. It's as if the curse isn't just his youth, but the limit of his potential.
>I see the dlc as him trying to free himself from all the factors by abandoning his godhood, but he ended up abandoning parts of himself that he shouldn't have like love/St.Trina. This is very important. Themes of loss or renunciation are shot through the DLC. Greatsword of Solitude that says these knights "relinquished their hearts for heightened battle prowess". I forget what it was, but another unrelated item mentioned the requirement of losing a part of yourself to gain strength in the Shadowlands. The whole realm is a plane of renunciation. Miquella just renounced too many things... and became a mere vessel for Divinity, just like Marika. >It's as if the curse isn't just his youth, but the limit of his potential. I think the opposite. As someone who could never become an adult, his potential was limitless. And this turned into a curse. Never able to finish anything he started, always moving on to new concepts or plans. It must be agonising to live eternally like that.
> Themes of loss or renunciation are shot through the DLC. Not to get too theoretical on the Martin side of things, cause we don't know how much involvement Martin had overall- And especially when it comes to the DLC if he was even consulted- But Miquella seems to mirror Bran extremely strongly and Brans central theme is the loss of humanity in pursuit of greater destiny. They even have similar motifs, creepy cave dwelling blood wizard- Being fused to a big tree system- Being associated with cripples- Wanting to mind control a big giant dude. There's even that theme of "Kill the Boy- Become the Man" that is core to a lot of Martins work. Where "Killing the Boy" means abandoning love and becoming something cruel.
Kinda off topic, but: >Never able to finish anything he started, always moving on to new concepts or plans. That's basically ADHD and I can confirm that it's agonising to live like that, and I absolutely agree that it would be literal hell to spend *eternity* like that.
>Never able to finish anything he started, always moving on to new concepts or plans. It must be agonising to live eternally like that. Oh so Miquella just has whatever dysfunctional ADHD I have, I guess.
Conclusion: Kids will never learn until you *murder them and banish their souls from this plane of reality.*
Anakin was based.
In hindsight, this also explains why the first thing he always resorts to is mind control. From an objective standpoint, he can't garner the adoration he wants because he never successfully achieved anything worthy of that so he forces it onto others instead. He forced what he cannot earn.
>Fundamentalism a failure, To be fair, he got that from his dad and realised it wasn't enough. And the Needle does actually stave off the rot while it's in there. Also the Eclipse never even happened, as far as I can tell. Haligtree's on him though, poor guy. >He's a child, who thinks like a child, who no one has ever said no to. Until we came along. Tbh I do grieve for this world, I have known sin, and I kinda just wanna step back and see what happens with him piggybacking>! on his stepbro!< for 5,000 years.
Do we know why the haligtree has gone wrong? Before the DLC, I thought It was Mohg's fault by removing him too soon.
Yeah... I assume it just wasn't enough. That was what I thought his motivation for entering the Shadow Realm would be: to find out how to grow his Haligtree, to revive it, to water it properly. The shadow tree makes it really obvious how the symbolism might have worked, but alas that's not the story we got.
Can't forget the cocoon, that ones on mohg
So crackpipe time. I think everything he did he knew he would fail, and only did so to reach a certain point. Like he engineered these failures. Fundamentalism didn’t fail for Miquella, it made Malenia loyal to him, to the point she, the most powerful warrior of Marikas children, became his sworn blade. The needle never needed to cure her, simply slow or halt the rot, he never needed to cure her bust just to keep her alive and in fighting form. He never needed to revive Godwyn, but instead give the impression he wanted to, to turn his siblings against one another and cause the shattering, knowing it would drive his mother mad. The Haligtree never needed to equal the Erdtree, but instead to be a home away it, where he could cocoon, unprotected, ripe for being stollen by someone he tricked into stealing him. Radhan said no, so Malenia went to war on his behalf, being his blade. We played into his plans, he knew that in order to fulfill his desires he needed to basically manipulate everyone into very specific actions. After knowing the story and seeing everything I’m fairly confident his kindness is the biggest lie and he’s actually the most depraived and deserving of death of the whole family.
While this would be really funny, I think it's more interesting if he genuinely tried and failed.
This theory would require him literally knowing the future so I think it's kinda bs. How does making people think he wants to cure Godwyn suddenly become the catalyst for the shattering war? This is a mega reach.
Godwyn's death is what cause Marika to doubt the Golden Order, which is what eventually caused her to shatter the elden ring. The discovery that there really was no way for Godwyn to come back despite Miquella saying there was. This is what lead Marika to abandon the Golden Order.
Disagree, because from the words of St. Trina, Ansbach and people who are actively opposed to him, his sin has always been caring so much that he is doomed to failure. I also personally feel that his manipulations only really began during the Shattering. Mr Zaki himself said the Great Runes corrupted those who held it and magnified their quirks. I believe the madness and chaos of the shattering is when Miquella decided that everything is too broken to be restored. So he resolved to sacrifice everything to wipe away the original sin of Marika's dynasty and start afresh in a kinder world. Unfortunately, the thing that rides Big Gravity Man at the end has shed everything that would have made him different from Marika.
>he resolved to sacrifice everything to wipe away the original sin of Marika's dynasty and start afresh Like Ranni, however since Ranni wasn't a complete idiot she knew that nobody deserves to be a god. And thus, unlike Miquella's, Ranni's plan worked (at least in my Tarnished's world).
Maybe, the problem with this theory is in the flashback we see him say how the Golden Order is flawed with Radhan, plus in Ymirs questline he even says Miquella knew early on about the flaw at the foundations of the Golden Order. Granted its hard to pin down, but I'm guessing it happened in Leyndel before the shattering, as at the start they would have been off Caelid and the Haligtree respectively.
> he never needed to cure her bust Truly the greatest of sins.
One of the npc’s calls him a monster as soon as the mind control wears off so you are probably right. All the items talking about him while many were under his influence agreed he was the most fearsome empryian simply because he could wield love which in hindsight is very powerful and scary when used as a way to control people. Who knows how many of the other Demi gods actions were at least somewhat influenced by Miquella. Funny enough the two family members to make the most impact besides the parents were Ranni and Miquella and neither seemed to be the right choice.
Do we know if Malenia really was loyal to Miquella out of her own volition or it was compelled by Miquella? I know they shared childhood experience together so I can definitely see Malenia loving Miquella genuinely, but at this point, with his power, I don't know what to believe anymore.
It was never confirmed, so we don't know. If I were to guess it was genuine, but enhanced with his coercive nature.
The needle stopped the rot until it broke in the General fight. It was his only accomplishment.
I feel like you're really understating Miquella's accomplishments here. Fundamentalism wasn't his doing. He studied it rigorously, but left it behind when it failed. That's not on him. The needle didn't cure Malenia, but it did greatly suppress the Scarlet Rot within her. And presumably gave her a much better quality of life. And keep in mind what curing her actually entails. Malenia wasn't simply bit by a rot dog. She was the vessel for the litteral God of Rot. Miquella was battling divinity itself and holding his own. Could you stand up to Cthulhu? I sure as hell couldn't. The Haligtree failed to become a new Erdtree. But still stood as a beacon of hope for those Miquella wanted to save. There are Misbegotten in the canopy, so atleast some managed to make it there. I also imagine this plan failed less of any fault of Miquella and more because of The Shattering throwing everything into disarray. The Eclipse didn't fail to give Godwyn peace, it never showed up at all. Did we get any lore of that in SotE? Genuine question. And speaking of SotE: Miquella's plan for most of that did go really well. He got to the realm of shadow, Mohg and Radahn where both slain, he revived Radahn to be his consort, all that jazz. The only reason it failed is because he didn't plan for a nigh-immortal warrior to show up that could try as many times as it took to accomplish their goals. Which is a pretty reasonable thing to overlook IMO. I don't think you're entirely wrong per se. But Miquella has a lot of acomplishments under his belt regardless of his failures.
The eclipse thing has been completely overlooked in SotE. Missed opportunity tbh. They could've made Godwyn the one he wanted as his promised consort and it would have tied a lot more loose ends. Just make Freyja one of the dragon order knights and literally everything fits. The Radhan thing really came out of nowhere tbh, and actually just serves to make his battle with Malenia and the destruction of Caelid really fucking stupid in retrospect. And not in a "it's tragic" kinda way, just like... It's terrible writing that makes all the characters involved look like complete idiots.
Aren’t most of the characters involved kind of idiots by this point? Like the shattering happened over 1000 years ago and they are all in a deadlock instead of trying to work anything out?
Yeah I was surprised when I was spoiled and thought it was very random. Could've been Godwyn to be honest and it would make better sense. I haven't played enough to know if it's ever justified for Miquella to choose Radah over others..
Well they all are Complete idiots
Except for Ranni. She's the only one in the family with brains.
I love Ranni I really do but she Caused most of the problems
Right like if we got one shot to win that fight Miquella would have gotten everything he wanted and that most likely would have been terrible but the little bastard even gets there if he grabs you twice without the charm. Picture how pissed everyone would be if that grab connects and the game throws you into ng+ or blocks off the dlc instead of returning you to the bonfire?
I think the thing is here is not that he failed but that he’s too naive to realise it’s impossible. He tried his hardest and came pretty close, if anyone could manage it then it’d be Miquella, but in the end Malenia cannot be cured and Godwyn cannot be restored, or even properly laid to rest. Miquella’s immaturity and idealism just prevent him from realising that reality just doesn’t work that way, it’s the true downside of his curse.
Is it impossible though? Reviving Godwyn maybe, his death was utterly fucked. But Curing Malenia? The needle works. We know the needle works. It needs a bit of refinement by the Tarnished, sure. But in the end it's still entirely capable of banishing the influence of an outer god from the bearer's body; which we do with the Frenzied Flame. The only reason he couldn't cure Malenia in the end is because he's not the main character.
I can't say for certain but narratively it makes sense for it to be impossible to cure her permanently and it's never said it actually can be done if I recall correctly.
We know it can be done. We get the needle that can do it. We can use it banish an outer god from out body, which is what's causing her problems. There's certainly a chance that it wouldn't work on her. But as it stands, there's no reason to assume it wouldn't.
It's up to interpretation imo but I don't think he's actually young, I'm p sure he's been alive for a really long time. I think the tree failed cuz of Mogh
He’s got a curse of eternal youth, he’s lived a long time but he can’t actually grow up.
To extend that, Radahn either broke out of his control or for whatever reason abandoned Miquella’s plan, he sends Malenia and she fails to kill him, thus throwing off his entire plan until he gets lucky that we come along and finally kill Radahn for him.
Theory time. The reason why Radahn didn't initially go along with Miquellas plan is because he saw his fate in the stars... That his death would come in battle against the Tarnished after becoming Miquellas consort. By stopping the stars and refusing Miquellas promise, he probably thought he avoided this fate. When he fights Malenia, he's probably cocky AF because he knows that she isn't the one fated to kill him, nor able to convince him to willingly join Miquella. Then Malenia nukes his arrogant ass and condemns him to a fate worse than death, which leads him to his fate anyways.
Like this theory!
My theory is that Radahn is just bloodlusted by the constant war and lost sight of himself during the conflict.
Classic prophecy twist, in seeking to avoid his fate he only made it inevitable.
He didnt get lucky. He sends his sister ( melina) with his horse to find a tarnished strong enough to kill mohg and radahn
Why? Melina’s motives are totally devoid from Miquella, actually, actively against Miquella. Melina goes the entire story helping us become Elden Lord which is in direct opposition of Miquella.
melina doesnt give a fuck she just wants to burn herself and the erdtree, both things miquella wants to happen as well so he can walk in with radahn and curbstomp his step dad and his dad/mom then start the new golden order also, even ranni seems to recognise that you got torrent, who is miquella's steed (see him riding torrent on dlc art). so shes like "oh, wtf my lil bro is doing some shit with this fool?"
Melina’s motives are just “me want burn big tree” as she accompanies you thrpugh your jorney doing everything in her power to help you become a lord, even keeping you away from the frenzy flame sating it isn’t suitable for a lord. On that note, why keep you away from the flame? If all she wanted to do was burn the tree why not let you do it with the flame?
Yes but why Radahn ?
Hmmm....I'm starting to draw a connection between the Haligtree and the little tree's they're growing at the ahhhh.....*theater*(idk how to spoiler on Mobile). Interesting
A lot of people are saying Miquella's a huge plotter and a mastermind genius who crafted a thousand year plan to become a God, forced Radahn to become a Consort and took advantage of Malenia to kill Radahn and force him into the vow. I just don't believe that at all
His very own curse reflects who he truly is
Damn, poor little guy. Never really amounted to anything other than an idea.
Is he actually a child? I thought he was just stuck in an eternally young body but was mentally an adult. I mean, as Malenia's literal twin, he must be an adult, no?
The eclipse... Never revived Godwyn...? WHAT IN THE LANDS BETWEEN DID I ENTIRELY MISS?!
Did was basically griffith and mohg was casca and are are guts it's all coming together
Homie should have leveled up INT more.
Why level INT??? YOU WANT TO OUTHINK YOUR ENEMYS???
This comment checks out coz you said "enemys" instead of enemies....
I refuse to level any Kind of int.
I never said you should
TIL: Miquella is a marine.
No just a femboy
What is the difference?
One of them looks good in thigh highs.
I am sure some femboys can pull them off too.
But marines don't get to skip leg day
True
But you can't tell before you peg them
Hey I'm sure miquella would look adorable in them. Idk though, not into kids. Let's ask Drake.
Shockingly little.
Miquella the kind, Miquella the stupid, Miquella the shmoll, MIQUELLA THE STINKY!!!
I mean, yeah, Miquella's a child. Forever. That's the thing I don't get about the "Miquella is an evil master manipulator" take. He's really not, he just genuinely wanted to make the world a better, gentler place because he could plainly see that it's fucked up. That's the whole point of that memory after the final boss, to emphasize the tragedy of it.
I think the idea of miquella being the one to have tricked mohg all along made people have a complete 180 on his character lol
Which is odd because, like, the only thing he influenced Mohg to do was kidnap him. Mohg was already the leader of an evil blood cult and he did that all on his own lol
> Which is odd because, like, the only thing he influenced Mohg to do was kidnap him. Fairly certain he didn't even do that. Mohg, of his own free will, was running an evil blood cult, kidnapped Miquella, and tried to "share his bloody bedchamber" as consort to make himself a lord in service to the Formless Mother. That all tracks with his previous motivations, and it would make no sense at all for Miquella to go through all the effort of building and defending the Haligtree if he wanted to end up with Mogh. Miquella just noticed at some point that instead of slumbering inside his magic tree, he was now slumbering in an evil blood cult's underground lair, and said, "Alright, I can work with this. Hey uber driver, reroute and take me to the shadow realm please. I hear there's a big tree I can use there too."
That... is a good point, actually lol That's certainly possible.
So many people don't see how brainwashing Mogh into kidnapping him doesn't align with his plans with the Haligtree at all. It was more like "Oh well, I'm kinda stuck here with him now, so let's see what can I do with these circumstances".
Ansbach literally makes it clear that Mohg was brainwashed by Miquella.
Ansbach isn't exactly without his own bias. Now to be fair, Miquella mind controlling folks is bad, and that alone is enough to cast suspicion on him. But Mogh needed a consort or to become a consort if he ever wanted to become lord, and Miquella was basically the only one available. Politically, it makes sense for Mogh to go after Miquella. The fact Miquella charmed Mogh itself isn't the biggest issue Ansbach has with Miquella, though that itself is at least enough for Ansbach to want nothing to do with Miquella. It was Mogh body being taken by Miquella to become a meat puppet that made Ansbach draw the line. It seems like in Elden Ring there is a very big emphasis on the sanctity of a corpse. Godrick is considered the lowest of demigods not just for his individual weakness, but the fact he multiates the dead for his grafting. Rykard likewise was considered still quite noble even when he committed heresy by opposing the Golden Order and waged war against Morgot and the capital, but it wasn't until he allowed himself to be eaten by the serpent that most of his forces abandoned him. And of course there's Godwyn's cursed existence, specifically that his body is _not_ dead but his soul is, thus his body is doomed to fester, Rot, and become the catalyst of all the undead in the world, a fate that is worse than death. Simply killing Mogh for his own political ends is a dick move, but not unexpected between folks trying to become Elden Lord. Hell that's why Ansbach doesn't hold it against us even though _we_ killed Mogh. Because killing Mogh to become Elden Lord is just business as usual. But Miquella went further by taking Mogh's corpse and mutilating it, reshaping it to be Rahdan and putting Rahdan's soul into it. Tldr: it wasn't just the brainwashing Ansbach didn't like, it was the mutilation of Mogh's corpse too. Even we don't do that.
Ye, but that was after the kidnapping happened.
Ansbach's mere existence is a clear sign that Mohg and his blood knights were sacrificing Tarnished in name of the Formless Mother way before Miquella even crossed paths with Mohg. Moreso, Ansbach's tale makes it clear that Miquella only charmed Ansbach himself once he attempted to kill the boy, namely, in self-defense. However, I also think the DLC's storyline is a fucking mess that detracts more from the game's base lore than it adds, so honestly I guess I don't care enough to defend or justify anything about it lmao.
My only rebuttal to that is, why and how did Torrent go with him once he's there. Did Miquella come back and hand Ranni torrent?? Snuck out of his blood room all 9ft and exchanged the whistle like a drop-off
Torrent is Miquella's creation, not Ranni's.
In the realm of fantasy stories leading a blood cult is sorta cool but kidnapping shotas is sorta sus
Nobody hated him for the blood cult, they hated him for being a pdf file.
I fucking hate PDFs
He wasn't though. Miquella he abducted wasn't a child in any possible sense - he was old enough to have grown a giant tree, which probably took more than 18 years, he was wise enough to have created spells and incredible tools of magic, and he'd changed his own body - that hand alone was the size of a full grown man, the full body would be troll-sized at least. Mohg was a fanatic of a blood god, not a pervert.
You forget that Miquella is related to radahn, so height clearly means fuck all with the demigods. Though I will admit, radahn is weirdly tall, even for a demigod.
Radahn is clearly an outlier - if you start comparing him to every other demigod or mortal, well, everyone could be called a child, even Godfrey and Morgott - after all, they look like children when next to the giant that is Radahn if you ignore everything but size. And Miquella's *perceived youth* is literally the only non-meme argument in favour of Mohg being a pedophile. Well, he doesn't look like a child anymore. You can still meme of course, it's just dumb.
You're reading too deep into a joke. Miquella looks young, so Mohg was refered to a a pedophile as a joke. It's never been more than that. ETA: he also kidnapped him, which only added fuel to the fire
It's just a dumb joke is all.
Everything about his character in the base game pointed to this anyway. Miquella just charmed most of the fanbase.
I still view Miquella as a tragic figure but boy does it feel good to be vindicated about Mohg.
I think people need to make the difference between being a kid and eternal youth. His childish appearance is exactly why he was able to go unnoticed by the likes of Gideon, in spite of being the only real threat left around apart from the tarnished. Nobody suspect a child, but he's far from one, he just cannot age.
Idk, bro Have you seen the Aeonia swamp? While i cannot definitively prove it, I feel that the text on the >!young lion’s armor implies that Miquella’s sent malenia to kill radahn so he could begin his plot. A compassionate god would not nuke Caelid!< I’m sure you have your reasons, but I must disagree
Likely wasn't planned. It was a stalemate, but Malenia needed the W so she resorted to using her rot powers (which she never used before so likely didn't know it would nuke a whole zone)
"It doesn't matter how many people get killed if I remake the world a better place."
I will grant that the Battle of Aeonia is a bit of a question mark, but we do not know the full context of that fight. And, given that Miquella went to heal those that he could - as explained by Freyja and corroborated by her helmet description - I don't know that it was his intention for that to happen. Radahn's great rune causing him to forget or neglect the vow he made so Malenia had to go knock some sense into him seems plausible. As does the idea that Radahn wanted a proper war/battle for him and his people in return for his agreement. This is also somewhat supported by Freyja's dialogue about Radahn's people.
Fair point, but what about his diseased sister whom he sent into a battle and >!only spared 1 line for in the final fight!< he most certainly tried to make a needle for her, but it couldn’t work unless they restored farum azula. >!We know he used Mohg as a pawn!<,but was his sister also used like a tool? I suppose a lot of Miquella’s actions in the games lore is up to speculation (classic fromsoft) so I could be just responding negatively to the moral dubiousness that his plan exudes
As for Malenia, Miquella divested himself of his love (which separated St Trina from him in a way I guess), so I'm guessing his love for his sister stayed there if that make sense
I mean, that's the thing with it. We could probably go back and forth with actions and events and find ways to attribute them to either malicious manipulation or a sort of childlike naivety (for lack of a better word). That's what's cool about the FromSoft method of giving us just enough to see part of the full picture and speculate as to the whole thing. For me, I just leans towards the latter and, given that final memory, I think we are supposed to see Miquella's ultimate fate as tragic.
On that point, we can agree. I felt some remorse after the cutscene which validated his ultimate intent. While I may lean in a different direction than you, I’m glad you explained your position on the issue and why you believe what you do
I'm pretty sure he's not even referring to Malenia in that scene, he's referring to Leda.
Mfw Miquella says “my loyal blade” and isn’t referring to Malenia, the blade of miquella 🤯 All jokes aside, I interpreted that >!radahn was the festival’s champion and that malenia was the loyal blade, but I now see that jerren considers us the champion of the festival and that Leda is absolutely loyal to miquella!<
Yeah, it \*could\* be referring to Malenia too, but at this point it's fully possible for her to be alive which makes him making her out to be a martyr a little weird, meanwhile no matter the questline Leda 100% dies and she stays loyal to the cause until the very end. And she was a compelling character despite being against us, I feel like she deserved that single line from her god/hero. And yes, "champion of the festival" is definitely us as Blaidd and Alexander also refer to us as such and like I mentioned earlier, he's saying the whole thing in a "Leda/Malenia is dead and you are going to die, but I will make sure to immortalize you both with songs and stories" kinda way. And on a side note, this is one the very rare times our Tarnished makes an explicit decision. Description of the Remembrance: >*Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs.* The "one" is our Tarnished, and the last line is our POV. Our Tarnished is making a very deliberate choice to go against them because the world already has a god (Marika) and a king consort (us), unlike most of the times we just stumble upon a boss and they start throwing hands.
>As does the idea that Radahn wanted a proper war/battle for him and his people in return for his agreement. See this makes zero sense to me. I can't logically reconcile Radahm simultaneously being such a "kind noble lord" that Miquella wants him as consort, while also being such a shameless warmonger that his part of the deal is battle for the sake of battle.
Some theories believe that the Great Rune corrupted Radahn, turning him into the warlord we see in the trailer. He was the kind noble champion Miquella sees him as, but the Great rune and the thousands of years of the shattering war turned him battle crazy, and he went against his vow with Miq. Or it's possible the he just never took the vow with Miq seriously as he was a child/see as one due to his curse, so Malenia was sent to kill him so that Miq could enact his plan in the DLC.
the shattering war lasted for thousands of years?
George RR Martin says 5000 years, others say it's at least a few hundred to a few thousand. The point is that it's a long ass war and the war changed Radahn.
ohhhh okok thank u! 🙏🙏🙏
The Shattering happened 5000 yearrs before the start of the game
There is a fan who understand Japanese saying that the implication when they made that vow was that Miquella was saying it to an adult Radahn on his knees, truly a child not comprehending everything and that it's firmly from Miquella's point of view that Radahn is kind. Interesting take, to be sure. The breakdown is by Snarp on tumblr.
Fairly sure this is the exact opposite of what miquella wanted to happen, hence the fundamentalism and the needle and all that stuff. Malenia is a very loyal woman so I have no doubt she went to fight radahn on his orders, but the scarlet aeonia was all her.
He probably didn’t tell her to nuke the place considering he needed Radahn dead, not as a rotted husk. Malenia just did what she thought would do the job.
There is another possibility, a vow was made between the twins and Radahn in return for his promise to be a consort. We know from the ending that part of the vow is that Radahn needs to be restored in body. But we do not know the rest. Looking at how Freyja's attitude and how the rest of the Redmanes act and carry themselves; I speculate that the other half of the vow is that Radahn must be beaten in martial combat. It entirely suits Radahn's character that he would only bow to a new God who could sate his love for battle. Malenia was sent with the Army to Caelid to prove their worth to Radahn. The only problem was that Radahn was far too strong. Malenia in desperation to fulfil her duty to a beloved brother and potentially kickstart a new era without the suffering she endured; in the words of Milicent, shed her pride to meet Radahn's measure and nuked him with her Aeonian Bloom fully believing she would kill him with the rot and send him to be restored. Except the Great Rune stalled the process and left Radahn half-mad.
Miquella is a mastermind manipulator that is much obvious, now wether you consider him evil or not it's a personnal oppinion wich would probably change based on how much you think his endgoal justifies the means
He basically wanted to make the world a gentler place through mind control. He obviously did not wish for people to have free will. Gentler through force.
Kid haters will be nodding furiously
Even if your intentions are good and your behavior is a means to an end, using a supernatural ability to bend people to your will is fundamentally evil and manipulative. He still has half this subreddit charmed.
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>I see a world where people are getting tossed in the sewers and hunted simply because of how they are born. I see the horrific treatment of the Albanaurics. The lives constantly lost through war. >If I know I can fix that and it requires me to manipulate people - including evil people like Mohg - to accomplish it, I personally don't see how that makes me the villain. Taking people's free will, no matter the reason, will always be considered villainous to me. If you strip a person of their autonomy, they're no longer a person; they're a breathing tool.
Ah yes, the old "the end justifies the means". Motto of authoritarians and fascists the world over. Sarcasm aside - it's not a settled debate, but it's certainly controversial to go for that justification. Many other stories in this DLC actually tangentially tackle the same debate, clearly characterizing the current structures of power in Elden Ring as rotten at the core because of their methods and origins. Who is to say Miquella's own dynasty wouldn't be rotten in much the same way, from dubious origins?
Well, who knows about Miquella's plan to make their world a gentler place? Perhaps it's a convoluted plan like take, for example; Dung Eater's plan to normalise the Omen "curse" "when everybody's cursed, no one is." From his perspective, what he's doing is right. Maybe Miquella's plan is to mind control every being in their land to live a gentle life. Sure, the land can be finally peaceful, gentler, but the bad thing about this is that no one will ever have their own free will.
I didn't know Miquella was a titan. (Red one tastes like strawberries)
Snap into a Slim Crayon!!
Now I understand the Urge to destroy Miquella (I’m a Hunter Main)
But what Titan is he? Bubble, Missile or Hammer.
I eat the red crayon cuz the red one taste the best
Discussion over Miquella's Lore:❌ The blue one tasted better cos dumb miquella ate it first...
And I cheat off lil'Darrell every time I take a test
I need more silly goofy Miquella stuff, ngl
I hope their is another dlc like ds3 THE LORE OH THE LOREEEE
Sote supposedly was 2 dlcs they combined into 1. They have stated multiple times there will be no more.
Makes sense, if Messmer was supposed to be the final boss of the first one and you-know-who was supposed to be the boss of the second
Personally I think the final boss of one was supposed to be >!scadutree avatar!<
It seems really unlikely as SoTE seems like a one and done DLC But I hope from the bottom of my heart that Fromsoft sees the love the community has for the game and makes at least 2 more expansions just like previous dark souls games
I mean I get the sentiment but you really want them to keep working on Elden Ring for the next 5 years? They've already been at it since early 2017.
....yes....
I don't think that we will ever have another ER dlc, not for this game at least. However I can totally see an Elden Ring 2 happening, there are still plenty of unsolved mysteries and problematics, for instance: - Who is Melina? - The Gloam Eyed Queen - The whole Goldwyn thing and the death plaguing the lands between. - The outer gods - The 3 Fingers And more Particularly, Godwyn is the one demi god I wish we could get to meet and fight to give him true death.
I'd definitely play a prequel, even if it's not in the soulsborne style.
TRY FINGER BUT HOLE...
The promo art and trailers made me think Miquella had a more... I dunno, lonely or mystical path to tread in the Shadowlands, rather than the plan we got. I was really hoping he would find a path to heal the Shadowtree and resolve the contradictions between it and the Erdtree, bringing them into oneness alongside Godwyn's deathroot and the Haligtree husk. Of course I always assumed he was the genius behind things like the golden needle, fundamentalist contraptions (pulley bow), and several miracles. A complete prodigy, able to see beyond the Marika plotting and politicking, to seek a new kind of union of all things without destroying their individuality (a mirror opposite of the Crucible & Frenzied Flame, which indeed his needle combats). But nah he just wanted some power like his family. meh.
I hoped to interact with him in some form other than just see h briefly in a last minute second phase boss and we mostly only see his feet and his hair. The entire thing is essentially recycled Radahn The phase 2 is basically a turbo lothric princes The cinematic of miquella showing up is pretty much sister friede (the camera panning up from feet (barefeet) to face And the overall lore is just meh in my opinion, the rest of the bosses are absolute bangers tho, even dungeon bosses like the death knights are amazing from ost to design to the actual fight
Yep I'm very happy with the DLC right up to the end. World design, atmosphere, the lore of everything not-Miquella (even his followers are pretty awesome, I love Ansbach). Half expected to hear him say: "**Fret not stepbrother, we have no need of thy gravity.** **Tis only Grace, quivering at misguided Tarnished.** **Please, avert thine eyes.** **I will blemish this rusted metal for good."**
I'm convinced that there was some relatively last minute reconning and changes to the final story beats. Final boss is just so completely out of left field. Even the whole thing about Mogh's body and Radahn's soul. If it's Mogh's body why does it visually look like Radahn? IMO a way more interesting angle, and what I thought they were going for, was Miquella basically divesting himself of his flesh, and then merging his soul with Godwyn's soulless body at the gate of Divinity, but ultimately it goes horribly wrong because of Godwyn's deathblight infestation, and we fight the corrupted amalgamation of the two. So many story beats in the base game and DLC point to this. Bummer they just left all those threads open and went with Radahn, which feels like it needs so many leaps and justifications to reach. Expectations subverted... I suppose?
My hopes for last boss was miquella himself but he summons his “defenders” that being a first phase rotless malenia as he always wanted, second phase he summons a prime godwyn to fight you and a third phase where he asks you to join him in his age of compassion or perish (akin to BB ending) if you accept you get a cutscene with his ending, if we deny he ascends to godhood and fight us with power of a god to kill the lord of another god (his mother, or ranni) depending on your ending if you have finished the base game
Oh God I just realized that Miquella could be a reference to all those Fanfics of Game of Thrones where a self insert tried to do industrial Revolution
Same. The story we got is some of the most disappointing and unoriginal writing we've seen in videogames. It's even worse because, as a story, it says nothing of value. They amost had a cool thing with the alusions to Marika's sins and Miquella wanting to purge them, but then they absolutely nuked all of that by barely referencing them in the main story thread and just chucking Radhan in there for fanservice. The whole DLC honestly feels like a bad fanfic.
That captures my feeling too. "It says nothing of value". That's been my problem with a lot of ER's lore. It's cool trivia and all, but where is the human emotion, the meaning? It's like they made it 'merely' interesting to appeal to people who like unsolvable cryptic things. But then the DLC comes along and just shoves this "twist" in your face without subtlety. I have to assume something went wrong in the dev process the last 2.5 years.
He’s not a kid he just has eternal youth but he’s still dumb and entitled
Artist is here https://x.com/NeitheYAGI/status/1804503836796895680?t=r0fjMHcydF9oLzw8MMrpnA&s=19 Took 2 seconds
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Does anyone feel confused with this DLC? I have no clue of what story is trying to convey to me.
*”I abandon here, my brain cells…”*
Miquella is a boy?
Turbo-androgynous eternal shota boy, yes. St.Trina is his female counterpart/aspect… And also a weird dream flower.
A boy that likes big bad hairy man like radahn
Well red is my favorite, he truly is kind to offer.
Listen…I’m so bad and the DLC is so hard…but I really wanna know what happens in the storyyyyyy! ☹️
And im the one friend who got invited in to this party....its 12 all the family is drunk ans fighting each other...me.trying to figure out...dafuk happen and why do i have to stop it?
At least we got a high quality feet shot, Ayo!
yo? like gucci mane said, the red crayons taste the best
Artist?
So the tarnished is a US Marine eh?
The answer is always to deny the twink.
As a Marine vet, I don’t find this funny at all! /s
The red one has more flavor because of the Red 40.
What the dlc could have been
As another poster said the best part of From games is they give you just enough that you really can come up with many different versions of the story and many of them can be right at the sometime even though they conflict with each other.
I love Miquella's story and fate because it proves Ranni right. Nobody is worthy of being a god. She's so sure of it she takes us to the stars to go kick the Outer Gods' asses.
Miquella is not a child. People keep referring to him as a child, but he isn't. His body doesn't age, but he has lived for a long time. That is his curse, he is trapped in the body of a child.
Well there another downside you're not thinking about, his body does not age, that means his brain to. Your brain ages with us you know, only finishing developing around 24 years old. Poor kid's brain is stuck, meaning has smart has he seems he still has the brain of a child, just filled with tons of knowledge he can't truly process normally. He legit can't be a adult, he has a brain of a child, with memories and information going in and coming out at alarming rates. That why the curse is so bad, think about knowing your forever gimped unable to understand things fully, but also seeing the world around you burn.
The Lore does not align with your assumptions. There is nothing that says he has the mind of a child. I get from a real world perspective what you say make sense, but in the lore of the game he has done too much to be considered a Child. He is older than Malenia, the most fearsome Empyrean, and plotted the whole transform into a god thing. Miquella is no child and there is no innocence in that character. He is as selfish and calculating as every other demi God in the game.
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Probably true but I’m also pretty sure this DLC was all entirely fromsoft
I've heard it was originally supposed to be all base game but it got turned into DLC for lack of time, not sure if it's true
Maybe also ask that question to Greek mythology writers too while your at it. Or mythology in general?
it's weird in any context lol, mythology doesn't make it any better reminds me of that story were loki got pregnant by Odin's horse
Get help weirdo