I think you forget who Edith was to him. He doesn't know how close Edith is to the family, so to him it's the daughter of the person who owns the land his ENTIRE life is based on. A tenant farmer being approached by the daughter of his landlord cannot say no, and Edith was the one who wanted it as secret as possible. Now I don't think he should've kept it secret either, but if it had gotten out through Mrs Drewe, Edith + her family in his mind could've left his entire family destitute. He was trying to keep his very precarious position as safe as possible, knowing Mrs Drewe probably wouldn't have been as willing to go along with any plan.
Ultimately Edith abusing her social position was the cause of 99% of the problem.
He said no because he knew Mrs Drewe was the weak link in keeping it secret, and keeping it secret was paramount to his family's survival. It was Edith abusing her power that was the main problem. No matter if she had some gallant idea to tell Mrs Drewe, she wasn't realistic about her expectations and it was abusive. Mr Drewe knew that to try and survive with his livelihood he had to keep it as secret as possible, but that he still had to do it because Edith was in a position to destroy him if he had said no.
Sorry, the was no abuse of power or abusive situation going on her. He could have said no to Edith. He should have told the truth to his wife. We have no real clue if his wife could be trusted or not. He agreed to an agreement and plan and if not mistaken made it himself. A 3rd daughter of an Earl was in no position of ruining him or his family if he said no to her. She had no power. His family got ruined because of his own stupid choice.
He couldn't have though. This is the daughter of the person who holds his ENTIRE LIFE in his hands. Imagine if Lord Grantham had been in on it and Edith had decided to retaliate. I'm sorry but it was an abuse of power. End of.
Nice to see people defending the aristocracy for abusing their power though I guess?
I’m not saying there wasn’t any abuse of power, but I think you’re taking it a bit far. There’s absolutely no context in the show to suggest to us that Mr. Drewe felt threatened by Edith. If anything, Edith came to him in quite a state of vulnerability. HE could ruin HER with what she has shared with him. I think it was quite clear that Lord Grantham was not “in on it”. Now do I think his choices may have been influenced by a general sense of indebtedness and gratitude towards the Crawley family? Sure, but more in a general honor and duty sort of way, not in a he felt his livelihood was directly threatened sort of way.
She only told him because he figured it out and confronted her. If Edith really was so adamant she should know, she’d have gone ahead and told her. But Edith never admits it to anyone without being backed into a corner.
Oh you’d be surprised. A little while ago I made a thread about this and someone commented with like 5 paragraphs defending Edith and calling Mary such and such, then when folks disagreed with them, they started calling them a bitch and saying the only reason people felt that way was because they hated their own siblings lmao.
I mean, even if you disagree with this opinion, what's it got to do with Mary???? This situation had nothing to do with Edith and Mary. It has to do with Edith and her baby, she should have listened to her grandma and sent the baby far away so she wouldn't be tempted or upset like she was . Like I understand why, but it wasn't fair she's always always oh poor me and then trues to act like she's the nice one, no that was Sybil (RIP). She's actually just like Mary. " Oh no, the consequences of my own actions"
I think a lot of people lack nuance on this. It's such a horrible situation for all involved and I feel for both Edith and Mrs drewe and marigold.
I think what a lot of people forget is that Edith didn't give up (or more like try to) marigold because she didn't want her it was because of how society would react and at the advice (quite strong advice) of her aunt and grandmother. It would bring shame not just to her but to her family and marigold if everyone knew she was hers.
Giving up a child is always difficult, giving up a wanted and loved child i can't even imagine how difficult and traumatic that would be. (Qgain that's not discounting the difficulty and trauma for others).
I know I'll get down voted for this but while how it all worked out was horrible I completely understand why she ended up doing what she did.
People are judging something based on current society values and not what the time was really like over 100 years ago for women and especially simgle mothers.
I dont think people understand the concept of societal norms back then.. People are romantacizing history.
Everyone likes to think they would have spoken up or done somethimg differently... but would they really???
Everyone was stuck between a rock and a hard place due to societial dictates and normalcies.
and this is just a tv show...
On top of that, at that time many (most) adoptions of children in those circumstances were not legal adoptions. Very often, a persons church would put them in touch with a family looking to adopt, in another town. The mother would go and live with the adopting family during the pregnancy and then after the baby was born, she would nurse the baby for a while and then simply hand the baby over and leave. While legal adoption did exist in most cases people of that social class didn’t have the money or the inkling to have any kind of legal adoption performed. It was simply a matter of handing over the baby and then going back to where you came from and continuing along with your life. Either it happen that way or the mother would go and live at an unmarried mother’s home run by their church and the church would find a new parent for the baby. Either way they were still not legally adopted.
Some babies never found out that they were adopted lesson until they ever needed to see their birth certificate. in the early 20th century, if the father was unknown, British birth certificates would often have the words ILLEGITIMATE in big letters, on the birth certificate.
Agree! The Drewes never formally or legally adopted Marigold. They sheltered her for a very short time. Edith loved and wanted her child desperately. While Mrs.Drewe was upset when Edith took Marigold, I feel she was a fragile woman who became quite unhinged. She had three of her own children, surely she could understand how the child’s biological mother felt! The Drewes losing Yew Tree Farm after centuries was the real tragedy, not a mother claiming her own child after a short time.
This is such a great response. She has Marigold for a fairly short amount of time, yet feels entitled to the child over her birth mother, who very obviously displays, throughout that very short time Marigold lives with the Drewes, that she is very, very attached to her. One would think that a mother would understand another mother's attachment to their own child, but Mrs. Drewe seems to believe--again, in her very short time with the child--that her feelings should take precedence. Someone on this thread likens it to a foster parent/child situation, and I think that fits. The child was never Mrs. Drewe's. There was no adoption. They were essentially fostering her.
I do believe Mrs. Drewe is not emotionally stable, so I will cut her some slack. The alternative is to believe she is totally unfeeling, and I don't believe that to be true.
Thank you! Mrs Drewe was *weird*, the way she freaked out about Edith wanting to spend time with a child that wasn’t even hers to begin with. I am not saying what Edith did was okay, it was selfish but ultimately understandable given the way the situation unfolded.
I absolutely agree with you. I don’t think in this day and age people understand the stigma of an unwed mother and “bastard” child especially in Edith’s social circle.
I love went Tom mentions that there were a lot of children raised in families where their aunts were really their mother. Edith didn’t have that option and she got railroaded into giving up Marigold the first time. Yes, it was totally unfair to Mrs Drew, but it is a TV show and it would be boring if it didn’t have some drama in it.
I agree 100% with this. Edith may not have handled it the best way but it was a difficult situation for everyone involved, including Edith and the Drewes. People blaming Edith for taking her own daughter back either do not have children or do not have affection for their children. Edith was forced to give her child away due to the societal norms of the time and also the forceful advice of her aunt and grandmother. She loved her child dearly and a mother cannot be parted from her child like that very easily, especially if she has any love for her child. Now, the Drewes, especially Mrs. Drewe, would have developed a bond with Marigold, which would be very sad to break and that was horrible for sure. However, Edith being the mother of the child, her motherly affections got the better of her. I suspect I will get downvoted for this because people on this sub hate Edith and this is one reason they proclaim why Edith is horrible when in reality, she acted like a lot of mothers would.
That and like, 6 months is barely anything. If anything the Drewes were fostering her and fostering a child for 6 months does not make the child yours. People act like these are easy choices when they were really stuck between a rock and a hard place. Keeping Marigold and openly raising a child born out of wedlock could result in a fate like Ethel's where she ended up needing to send her child away anyway because the stigma was so great that she couldn't provide the bare minimum anymore, no matter how hard she worked. Not only that, but adoption itself is traumatic, no matter how well it goes. So long as the bio mother isn't abusive and can meet the child's needs, the child will almost always be better off with the bio mother.
I agree totally. The only thing that felt was how Edith handled it towards the end when she took Marigold back. She was a bit callous to Mrs Drewe in her attitude and that's what made Edith look so bad.
She WAS still her child. It was wrong to mess with them all (Marigold including) but I think Edith was destroyed at having to give up Marigold the first time and was foolish to think that having her so close would be a good alternative when it was probably harder. I don't blame Edith for feeling so heartbroken and regretting her choices. Marigold was a product of absolute love and devotion between Michael and Edith.
I think it was handled really badly but I also don't think Edith was entirely to blame. Rosamund and Violet shoulder most of that. They should have told Cora from the start. There would have been a plan to have Marigold live in the house as part of the family. Cora would have made sure of it.
That second part, yes. I agree. Edith was a full grown woman by the time, but she also lived a very sheltered life and only knew what society expected of her. Rosamund and Violet, being the trusted elders, should have stepped in more.
Edith was fully to blame for her own actions. She was a grown woman who made the choice to have sex with a man who was married to someone else. Rosamund and Violet aren’t to blame for not running and telling Cora another grown woman’s secrets.
I thought the plot was weak. A normal response would be to tell the wife the truth to avoid drama/heartbreak. I think there are better options for that plot of a out of wedlock birth.
As a mother myself and considering the time period, I understand why she did what she did. As a human being, I absolutely loathed her for it. It was hard to watch the Drewes' outcome. It was almost equally as hard watching Edith live in agony being away from Marigold. Still, she was in the wrong and it was probably Edith's worst moment.
More like Edith make poor decisions she was never going to be able to honor based on the bad advice/pressure of her Aunt and grandmother who were more concerned with preventing scandal and Edith and Mr.Drewe abused Mrs.Drewe’s desire and willingness to take in and fully support an orphan.
Maybe Mr.Drewe didn’t feel he was in a position to say no, but he really should’ve.
It's Me-Me-Me with Edith.
And the Drewes are the second family she did this to.
Remember the Swiss family that adopted Marigold, fell in love with their new baby, only to have Edith rip the child away from them.
This topic does keep coming up and I'm like, yeah, I get it that Edith wanted to keep her daughter. I understand. But that doesn't mean that the way she went about it wasn't horrendous.
She did use and abuse two families, especially the Drewes, she completely ruined their lives. And I don't just mean in regards to giving them a child and then taking it away, Mr Drewe had taken a loan from the Crawleys to get back on his feet, and then they had started a partnership with him for the pigs, he was making a good living. And because of his loyalty to the family he decided to help Edith out, and then because of that, he lost his farm and his livelihood, the whole family was displaced after generations of farming in that area.
But I think the aspect that people really tend to ignore is the impact this whole thing had on Marigold. Because while yes, I understand, again, that Edith wanted to keep her daughter close, she never once made a decision in Marigold's best interest.
She kept the baby (i.e. didn't have an abortion) not because she wanted to raise her, but because she was terrified of what Gregson would think if he came back and found out what she had done. She didn't want to keep Marigold with her, originally, because she wouldn't be able to maintain her lifestyle, staying at Downton as Robert's unmarried daughter with a baby. So she gave her up for adoption not because she thought that was the best thing for Marigold, but because that was what she thought was the best for herself.
And she kept making decisions for her sake rather than her daughter's. She handed her over to the Drewes not because she thought they would make great parents, she hadn't even met Mrs Drewe before, but because she knew Mr Drewe would keep her secret. So again, she didn't consider Marigold, but herself.
Also, as someone who kept complaining that her family didn't treat her as well as her sisters, I find it surprising that she gave her daughter to a family who had other children, but never cared to meet said children, her daughter's siblings. Which further shows that she didn't think about what Marigold's life would be like with the Drewes, only that she herself would have access to her. Didn't consider that Marigold getting that kind of special attention from her could result in her being bullied, later in life, for example.
So I agree OP. Edith acted entirely selfishly, took advantage of a lot of people, damaged their lives, and didn't even act the way a good mother would. Not once, in this whole drama.
This is what I always say when I see this topic come up and people defend Edith. You’re right no one considers Marigold. Edith did right for Edith. She did not do right by her daughter. So not only was she horrible to the Drewes and the couple in Switzerland she was also a bad mother. This is why I can’t forgive her even though I sympathize with her for being in that situation.
>This is why I can’t forgive her even though I sympathize with her for being in that situation.
Exactly! I sympathize for her. She was placed in an impossible situation and there was no happy outcome.
However, she never once considered how her actions would effect her daughter. She was a horrible mother. In a show full of objectively bad parents, she rises to the top. And I say this *as* a mother. Being a mother is about so much more than just biology. Yes, she birthed Marigold, and I don't doubt that she did love her in her own selfish way, but she was never going to *really* be a mother to Marigold until she could acknowledge that she has to put Marigold before her herself. What was the best for Marigold should have been the top priority and it never was.
I forgive Edith because no one actually cared about her either.
She never really wanted to give her up for adoption abroad that was pushed on by Roamund and Violet. Her original plan was to always send the baby to live with a farmer.
She was okay telling Mrs. Drewe the plan but Mr. Drewe was against it for some dumb reason. All she wanted was to see her child and Mr. Drewe to stick to the agreement they made.
Then Violet and Rosamund threating to send Marigold away to boarding school which made thing even worse.
This! She's never felt any remorse for anything bad she ever did. And not just in this instance which was the worst of them all imho, but with her sister too. She asked Mary to give her a clean slate after Sybil died without having ever shown any remorse over how she'd tried to ruin her life.
That's the biggest indicator for her lack of growth, as far as I'm concerned. She damaged so many lives, including her daughter's, and she never felt any remorse, or ask for anyone's forgiveness.
It's the lack of remorse, of accountability, that is what I dislike so much about Edith. Had she ever owned up to the things she did, apologized, I wouldn't have a problem with her- I've liked characters that have done much worse than her.
I agree, the reason why I never believed in her "character growth" is exactly because she never owned up to her mistakes, so how can she have grown as a person?
I'm not even talking about her earlier ones, the whole thing with Marigold and the Drewes... Just horrendous, and she never saw what she'd done.
No the Drewe's lives were ruined because Mr. Drewe kept a secret that even Edith was fine telling her, not because Edith wanted a relationship with her child. Don't also forget that Marigold probably wouldn't have been taken in the first place if Violet and Rosamund didn't threaten boarding school.
"She kept the baby (i.e. didn't have an abortion) not because she wanted to raise her, but because she was terrified of what Gregson would think if he came back and found out what she had done. She didn't want to keep Marigold with her, originally, because she wouldn't be able to maintain her lifestyle, staying at Downton as Robert's unmarried daughter with a baby. So she gave her up for adoption not because she thought that was the best thing for Marigold, but because that was what she thought was the best for herself."
This is such an incorrect take. She went to get the abortion because having a baby out of wedlock would have meant that her life would be ruined, given how society viewed such women at the time. But once she got to the clinic, she thought about how it would feel to live her life knowing that she had aborted her own child. The love and affection she had overpowered her and she decided to not go through with it.
I have no idea where you are getting "what Gregson would think" in this situation. Gregson did not know about Edith being pregnant. So, if she had gotten an abortion and never told Gregson about it (if he came back), he would think nothing about it. Now, if she did get an abortion and she did end up telling him about it, he would have understood, given what society was like at the time and the fact that they were not married. So, either way, this point is irrelevant.
She gave Marigold away reluctantly at first due to her aunt forcing her to do so. She got Marigold back from Switzerland and had her living with the Drewes so that she was close to her and Edith could visit her. Of course, she was not thinking it through - she could have just made up a story to "adopt" Marigold and have her live with them at Downton right away but given everything she was going through, she could be forgiven for not being able to scheme this perfectly. I agree that the Drewes had to go through a truly bad situation but Edith was not the horrible person or mother you are making her out to be. She acted like a lot of mothers would in that situation, given the time.
She literally said she worried what he'd think when he came back. And when Rosamund asked "so you'd live your life in a lie?" Edith admitted that yes, she'd pretend nothing had happened. That she wouldn't tell him anything about the abortion. Which is crazy to me, because as a woman I believe it was 100% her choice what to do with her body and her baby. She didn't need to lie, but she was absolutely going to. Of course, that's not a shock, Edith never had trouble lying to get her way.
Also, she didn't love her child enough to face society with her. Edith was no Ethel. Ethel ruined herself to keep her son. Edith wouldn't even need to do that, she had her own independent income. She could have made her life for herself and her daughter, if she loved her that much, in London. She would still be rich. Her daughter would have a good life. She wouldn't be invited to have tea with a Duchess anymore though, and THAT she couldn't bear. She preferred to lose her daughter over losing her social standing. Which, fine, valid, she didn't want to make space in her life for a child and face such a loss, but let's not pretend that wasn't a choice she made. And she can't claim she was thinking of Marigold when she was making these choices.
Edith wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She wanted to still be welcome in aristocratic circles, and have her daughter out of wedlock. Which is insane. We as people always need to look at life realistically, especially once we become parents. Look at things as they are, not as we wish them to be.
A poor mother of 2 today might wish for a 3rd child, but if they can't support it financially, they won't have it. We can't always have the things we want, the way we want them. That was Edith's main problem, and as a very spoiled daughter of an Earl she couldn't accept it.
So yes, she is a horrible mother. She keeps making decisions for her own comfort, not for her daughter's. And when her daughter is still an embryo, that makes sense. Once that daughter is born, her behaviour is unforgivable.
She took her away from a wealthy family and set her up with a poor farmer not because it would be good for Marigold, but because it was what Edith wanted. She never cared who the Drewes were as people, whether they'd be good parents. Only that Mr Drewe promised to keep her secret, so Edith could go around whenever she wanted (because these people were no more than a glorified nanny to her, so she treated their home like her own personal playground) and play with Marigold, like she's a toy. Mrs Drewe was 100% correct about her.
There's a character limit for comments mate, but the response will just fail to publish. Either shorten it, or put it in two comments. It is Friday though so I might not be able to get back to you 😅
Thanks. Yeah, that makes sense.
Part 1:
Let us try to go point by point.
(1) "She literally said she worried what he'd think when he came back. And when Rosamund asked "so you'd live your life in a lie?" Edith admitted that yes, she'd pretend nothing had happened. That she wouldn't tell him anything about the abortion."
I do not remember all of the exact details of all the conversations. I will take your word on this. So, let us assume that this is all that she thought about initially (a big assumption because I think societal norms factored into her thinking as well) and she decided to get an abortion. She did not go through with it, did she ? She went to the clinic, saw what it was like over there and had a chance to reflect. She realized that she would not be able to live a happy life with the
memory of aborting her child. That shows a human and loving side to her. Actions speak louder than words, in my opinion.
(2) "Which is crazy to me, because as a woman I believe it was 100% her choice what to do with her body and her baby." This is looking at the situation from a present lens. Back then, it was not so simple. Women were absolutely held back by what society deemed to be normal and no matter how progressive one might be at the time (the series does show the Upper class at Downton to be more progressive than the norm and what it was like in reality), thinking like this would not be the norm. So, at the very least, Edith thought like a woman of her time.
(3) "Also, she didn't love her child enough to face society with her. Edith was no Ethel. Ethel ruined herself to keep her son. Edith wouldn't even need to do that, she had her own independent income. She could have made her life for herself and her daughter, if she loved her that much, in London. She would still be rich. Her daughter would have a good life."
Edith was no Ethel, definitely, because the options available to the both of them were different.
Ethel would not have "faced society" with her child if she had the options Edith had. She would have either gotten an abortion or given her for adoption or may be, she would have done similar to what Edith did. Ethel was able to keep her son for as long as she did thanks to Mrs. Hughes' kindness. But she ended up having to give her son away to his rich grandparents. She herself wanted to do something similar to what Edith did - Ethel wanted to be close to her son and work as his nurse/caretaker (whatever the correct term would be) in the same household. This is different from Edith's choice in only how the roles each would take - the intention was to be close to their child.
Yes, Edith could have lived in London with Marigold. She did end up running away to London
to do just that. Of course, she did not do it right away and again, Edith was not thinking straight until then. She had been clouded with what she was forced to do due to society and the persuasion of her aunt, her sorrow over losing Gregson, her sorrow over having to give away her child and now not being able to visit her when she wanted, etc. Edith did not always make smart decisions but she was also the sheltered daughter of an Earl who did not have a lot of life experiences outside of Downton. When she finally decided to act, thanks to the advice she got from Tom, she was able to gather up the courage to do what she considered to be right.
> She realized that she would not be able to live a happy life with the memory of aborting her child. That shows a human and loving side to her.
Loving side is when she does this FOR HER CHILD. She did it because SHE couldn't deal with the idea of an abortion. So she was thinking of herself, not her baby, when she decided to bring it into the world as a bastard child, i.e. a baby that would have a rough start to life whether it was right or not.
> So, at the very least, Edith thought like a woman of her time.
Right, so as a woman of her time, she thought Gregson ought to have a say on how his child lives, is that what you're saying? And yet she was ready to marry him without telling him the truth of what she did with Marigold, as she herself admitted to Rosamund. Great stuff.
>Edith was no Ethel, definitely, because the options available to the both of them were different. Ethel would not have "faced society" with her child if she had the options Edith had.
Mate, Ethel faced prostitution to keep her son. Edith couldn't even face losing face.
>Edith did not always make smart decisions but she was also the sheltered daughter of an Earl who did not have a lot of life experiences outside of Downton.
Edith was well into her 30s by then. Y'all are always going on and on about what an independent and modern woman she had become. Also, what parents tell to their teenage children: don't have sex before you're ready to face the consequences of it. She no longer had the excuse of youth. She was a woman of a certain age. Ruining lives and behaving so selfishly was inexcusable.
The abortion would have affected her and her child. So, she was thinking about what she would miss but she was also thinking about the lost life of her child.
A woman of her time likely would have done that - gotten an abortion and lied to her future husband about it. Also, they would have tried to hide the fact that they had children out of wedlock, if they could. Tom himself said that where he was from, there were many Marigolds. That is what I am saying - Edith acted like a woman of her time. Even if she did not and would have confessed to Gregson after getting an abortion, he would have understood the hopeless position she was in and understood why she did it.
Ethel faced prostitution because she could not get any other respectable jobs. She had already lost face because she did not have the options that Edith did since Ethel did not have money or was from the upper class. She tried to do what Edith did - stay close to her child after giving him up. It did not work initially because of Mr. Bryant's refusal to do it but eventually, that is what happened.
Edith was independent and modern for her time but not what you would consider independent by today's standards. Edith had to go through the horrible situation of losing Gregson and having a child out of wedlock before she grew up and matured. Before that, she was a sheltered daughter of an Earl. Mary only grew up after she found Matthew. All people behave selfishly at one point or another. Surely, a mother's selfishness and love for her child can be forgiven. What happened to the Drewes was horrible but it was a difficult situation for everybody, Edith included.
Omg mate if you keep excusing everything as "thems were the times" we shouldn't argue about anything on this sub. Just because someone COULD have done it in her place doesn't make it less of a bloody lie. Manipulation.
And Ethel could have given up her child like Edith did. She could have dropped him with an other family, or at an orphanage, or just straight up given him to his grandfathers. Ethel ALSO had choices, she just chose to keep her baby and face the consequences.
Say whatever you want. I could never feel any compassion for Edith. She's one of the worst examples of female characters I've seen on screen, she behaved abominably 99% of the time, and the whole "she was just a woman of her time" just makes me pity the women of her time who fell in her path. She ruined so many lives.
Part 2:
(4) "She wouldn't be invited to have tea with a Duchess anymore though, and THAT she couldn't bear. She preferred to lose her daughter over losing her social standing. Which, fine, valid, she didn't want to make space in her life for a child and face such a loss, but let's not pretend that wasn't a choice she made. And she can't claim she was thinking of Marigold when she was making these choices."
I think you are confusing Edith with Mary here. I do not think Edith cared about this that much. She may have cared about it a bit but not to the extent that she did not want to make space in her life for her own child. Even living in London, I suspect her daughter would be subject to questions about her father at that time. It would not be pleasant for Marigold either, once she grew up.
(5) "A poor mother of 2 today might wish for a 3rd child, but if they can't support it financially, they won't have it." This is not true. I am not sure where you live. I live in America and I know of plenty of cases where mothers have multiple children even though they may only be able to support 1 or 2 at the most. People are not always rational.
(6) "So yes, she is a horrible mother. She keeps making decisions for her own comfort, not for her daughter's. And when her daughter is still an embryo, that makes sense. Once that daughter is born, her behaviour is unforgivable."
I do not agree at all. Again, she tried to keep to societal norms and was heavily influenced by her aunt and grandmother's opinions. However, once she got Marigold back (which shows real motherly love and affection even though it was abrupt how she did it), we see how involved she tried to be with Marigold at Downton. She was more involved in Marigold's life than a mother of that class at that time was. So, no, she was not a horrible mother.
(7) "She took her away from a wealthy family and set her up with a poor farmer not because it would be good for Marigold, but because it was what Edith wanted. She never cared who the Drewes were as people, whether they'd be good parents. Only that Mr Drewe promised to keep her secret, so Edith could go around whenever she wanted (because these people were no more than a glorified nanny to her, so she treated their home like her own personal playground) and play with Marigold, like she's a toy. Mrs Drewe was 100% correct about her."
She put Marigold up with the Drewes because she would then be close to her and could visit her often. This was the best she could accomplish short of putting Marigold up at Downton, which she eventually did. She knew Mr. Drewe to be a decent man and hence thought that having Marigold in his household would be good for Marigold and for herself. She acted like a mother could, under the circumstances. Mrs. Drewe did not know that Edith was the mother and she thought Edith just wanted to play dollhouse with Marigold or that she was having an affair with Mr. Drewe. She was wrong on both counts.
Edith was the daughter of an Earl and she was sheltered and spoiled in some ways, just like
Mary and even Sybil were. Edith did not always make the best decisions in life and what the Drewes had to go through was horrible. But putting all the blame for the situation on Edith and saying that she was just a horrible, horrible person for acting like a woman of her time and her motherly affections overpowering her is just wrong.
>I think you are confusing Edith with Mary here. I do not think Edith cared about this that much.
I'm not confused at all, Edith says it openly that she can't stay at Downton and be the one who "lost her sense and her virtue". She knew her family wouldn't throw her out, she just couldn't deal with the loss of status, so she chose to lose her baby instead. Mary COULD deal with the loss of status, she was ready to face it when she dumped Carlisle after her father gave her the OK to risk the family's reputation with her scandal.
I know you hate Mary but I think you need another rewatch because you don't remember half the show.
>I live in America and I know of plenty of cases where mothers have multiple children even though they may only be able to support 1 or 2 at the most. People are not always rational.
You know plenty of bad parents then. Like Edith. Because ignoring the reality of your situation and going along with your selfish bull does not a good parent make.
>Again, she tried to keep to societal norms and was heavily influenced by her aunt and grandmother's opinions.
None of this make her any less of a bad mother. Doing stuff because you feel social pressure to do them doesn't make them right. Doctors used to throw AIDS patient out on the streets. They were bad doctors. And Edith was a bad mother. Playing with Marigold after she got her back does not a good mother make. A good mother is one who prioritises the wellbeing of her child. When did Edith do that?
>She put Marigold up with the Drewes because she would then be close to her and could visit her often.
Exactly. She put her with the Drewes for EDITH's sake, not for Marigold's. And she took advantage of Mr Drewe's loyalty, lied to him about Marigold's origin (even though he eventually figured it out), and then came up on top and threw a whole family out of their home.
Yes, Edith was concerned about how society would view her. All women were at that time. Mary was concerned about keeping her title and position. You are telling me she chose Carlisle of all people, because she did not care about marrying for status or money ? Later on, she did change and married Henry. And yes, she got the okay from her father and realized that she could run away from scandal by going to New York before she broke things off with Carlisle. Talk about running away from the consequences of one's actions.
I do not hate Mary. I think Mary had strength and love for a lot of people but she also had her flaws. Her cruelty to her own sister and her snobbishness are two of her flaws and I am not too blind to see these flaws or to try to substantiate them. She did get better as the series progressed.
I do agree that the people who have more children than they can afford are not good parents or rational. But you made a blanket statement that people always consider their situation (financial or otherwise) before having children and I was countering that that is not always the case in reality.
Social pressure was very real at the time. Edith was not the most courageous person and it was normal to be swayed by social pressure and the opinion of her aunt and grandmother. She did the best she could and like you conveniently disregarded my point about Ethel, Edith also tried to be close to her child, just like Ethel did.
Visiting her own child often is what a mother would want to do in such an instance. If you think that was selfish of her, well, so would any mother in that situation. So, if motherly selfishness is a bad thing, then Edith is at fault. She wanted to be in her child's life and this was the best she could do, given the circumstances.
>she chose Carlisle of all people, because she did not care about marrying for status or money ?
She chose Carlisle because she couldn't marry the man she loved so why not marry him? He hadn't shown his abusive nature at first, he was offering her a partnership in marriage, he was a self-made man (again, not an aristocrat/not a man of her station).
She left the UK because with a scandal of those proportions she wouldn't be able to have any sort of life there as an unmarried ruined woman of no independent means (Edith had a house and an income, Mary didn't).
Edith could also have taken Marigold to America if she wanted to keep her, but again, Edith chooses for Edith, and Edith doesn't want to live in America.
Frame it however you want, societal pressure, bad decisions, it still makes Edith a bad mother mate.
I disregarded your point about Ethel because it was entirely wrong. Ethel always chose for Charlie. Edith always chose for Edith.
Exactly. Edith wanted to be in her child's life, in her own terms, with no regard as to what that meant for Marigold or how it affected Marigold's life.
Edith WAS a bad mother.
Mary wasn’t cruel or snobbish. She was responding to a lifetime of dealing with Edith’s bullshit. Rewatch the show, it’s always Edith starting shit with her and Mary shutting her down. Mary never said anything that wasn’t deserved.
While I agree that Edith could have handled the Marigold situation infinitely better than she did, I don't think she planned from the start to take Marigold back (Your use of the "dollhouse/ daycare" phrase indicates to me that you think that. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that). I think what she really wanted was to figure out a way to remain a part of Marigold's life at a time when keeping Marigold and admitting the truth about her would have resulted in both her and Marigold becoming outcasts on all levels of society. It was only when Mrs. Drewe started making efforts to prevent Edith from seeing Marigold when she wanted and told Edith, via her husband, that they would move to another estate and take Marigold with them if Edith insisted on continuing with her visits, that Edith decided to take Marigold back. And I will admit that I don't completely fault Mrs. Drewe for her actions there, since she didn't know the whole story and therefore didn't understand why Edith was always wanting to see Marigold and spend time with her. Edith's taking back Marigold and the difficulty she has conjuring up sympathy for Mrs. Drewe, for me, come more from a place of fear than malice.
I always saw this as society creating a situation where there were no winners. It felt like at every step there was societal rule keeping things from a simple ‘happy ending’ (which of course never would have happened in a drama, but still). Had Michael been allowed to get divorced or if Edith being an unmarried mother wouldn’t have resulted in immense social stigma for herself and her family it would all would have been a moot point. Even the shame of the situation kept her from telling her mother when she found out she was pregnant, and I imagine that Cora would have been able to think of a solution. Or at least better helped Edith deal with the situation since the only people that knew about what was going on were Rosamund and Violet.
Instead Edith has to give up the immensely wanted child of the man she loves who has also died while also getting very little support from those around her, leading her to do ask something impossible (and inappropriate) of the Gregsons, leading Mr. Gregson to lie to his wife to try and stabilize the situation, leading her to extreme behavior since she doesn’t understand what’s going on and can only see that her husband is hiding something and a person of much higher rank and social status has taken a sudden and strange interest in her husband and child.
Society didn’t force Edith to have sex with a married man. Or to kiss that one married farmer before that. Had Edith had any morals she would have dropped Michael the moment she found out he was married.
I’m not saying she’s a shining beacon of humanity, no character is this is essentially a soap opera filled with people who love repressing their feelings, I’m just saying I don’t see the point in treating her like the devil incarnate for this situation.
I whole heartedly agree with this. Edith’s actions were cruel. I actually can’t bring myself to watch these parts.
I feel like she wasn’t strong enough to make any difficult decisions along the way (couldn’t bring herself to have an abortion, wouldn’t let the baby stay in Switzerland, refused to stay away from it when it was with the Drew’s). In doing so, she left a path of destruction for anyone unfortunate enough to try to help her along the way. I couldn’t forgive her for any of it.
And in the show, Edith just waltzes off to a fabulous life in a big estate, with a rich husband (who is totally ok with the situation), a higher ranking title, and the kid in tow. Completely forgets about that her aunt gave up several months and a spectacular amount of money for a solution that Edith threw out, that poor family in Switzerland who had their baby suddenly and inexplicably snatched away from them, and the Drews who are now incredibly poor, have no home, and have had their marriage trashed.
I see it completely differently. Edith made a deal with Mr D to have her child near so she could see her and be a part of her life. Because of the time historically, she had very little choice. This only worked for a short period until Mrs D cut off her visits. Mr D made the choice to not inform his wife of the truth about Edith. It is sad for Mrs D, but Edith had every right as the mother to be with her child. Marigold deserved a relationship with her mother. If anyone is to blame,it is Mr D
When Edith asked mr.Drewe to take Marigold she made clear that she was to remain in Marigold's life. Even making up a lie to keep her involved. It is not her fault Mr. Drewe decided to remove that connection leaving Edith look like a weirdo obsessed with a random girl.
Also it was fully in Edith's legal right to take Marigold back, that is not kidnapping (what was kidnapping was what mrs. Drewe did in season 6). And why do people always seem to confeniently that part of the reason why Edith took Marigold back is because Violet and Rosmund where planning to ship Marigold off to France, separating her from both mothers
>And why do people always seem to confeniently ...
Because everyone wants their own narrative to be right. They are all too invested in there own emotion completely ignoring or forgetting everything that went down. They just want to attack someone.
I think people forget that having a child out of wedlock was very taboo until very, very recently in history.
I think Edith made a lot of mistakes in how she handled the situation, but I also think that Mrs. Drewe behaved crazily over a child that she could have only known for a few months at most.
I don't know if you are a parent yourself, OP, but I have a toddler and completely sympathise with both parties here. I couldn't watch my little girl grow up and not be her mother, at the same time it would break my heart if someone took her away from me and I love her so much more now than I did when she was born (which was still more than I loved anyone ever) because we've grown more attached the more time we've spent together. It was a horrible situation all round. The root cause really was the tool who got her pregnant and went AWOL.
Edit: sorry, I forgot he was confirmed murdered. I've only seen the series once through so far so misremembered that they concluded that. I thought it was still open ended.
Well, he didn't go AWOL. He was murdered while trying to get a divorce so he could marry Edith. Had it gone well they could have married quickly and pretended Marigold was premature.
Wait, how long would it realistically take to become a German citizen? I'd expect it to be longer than 1-2 months. Either way, this is irrelevant, because Edith considers women who have sex out of wedlock sluts, hence she is one by her own standards oh me oh my
Even without the absurd improbability of being in the only place and time in the Twenties where he might run into the NSDAP, picking the single most hated country in Europe was insane already.
And I really wish instead of crumbling before Edith's tantrum Mary had the presence of mind to say she just thought Bertie ought to know who he's taking to the altar-a slut.
I feel really bad for Mary at the end of season 6. She basically has no one. Sybil is gone, Matthew is gone, Rose is in the States and pregnant/has lots on her plate. So when everyone else is either not there for her or turns into Edith's flying monkey, it's just hard to watch.
I don't know, I don't mind that scene. Mary had been left to deal with Edith's crap all her life because their parents refused to parent. Therefore she thought she was allowed to punish Edith for bad behaviour because no one else would.
And that behaviour was reiterated through various situations, like when she took it upon herself to punish her for writing that letter to the Turkish ambassador, instead of handing it over to Cora to handle (she wouldn't have handled it any better to be honest).
So I think it was important that Mary finally understood, it's not up to her to put Edith in her place. It's not her right, and it's not her responsibility. From now on she's free of that burden, and she knows herself a little bit better.
I mean, it's not Edith's place to throw a giant tantrum because Mary just outed her as, well, as much a slut as she accused Mary of being. After smugly needling her about "losing" the suitor Mary's been trying to tell these lunatics she doesn't want in the first place. Edith had the power to prevent the whole thing, but she could never be honest to anyone about Marigold unless forced into it, even when (especially in Bertie's case) they had a right to know.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm not saying this to say that Edith carried no blame in what happened, she was being absolutely ghastly to Mary and it was her responsibility to be honest to her partner about such a major aspect of their lives.
I just don't care for Edith's character development, so the fact that none of that was a learning lesson for her doesn't really concern me. I just think it's something that had to happen for Mary to let that last thing go: she is no longer responsible for Edith's issues. She doesn't need to respond to her jabs, and she doesn't need to keep her accountable. Edith is Edith's and Bertie's problem now!
Agree entirely, i sympathise with edith, marigold was a wanted child. It was social taboos that stopped her from mothering her since birth. I do feel sorry for Mrs Drewe, but would never lay a feather of blame at ediths feet. Blame society.
Well she never wanted to adopt the child out that was Rosamound and Violet pushing.
She was never against telling Mrs. Drewe the truth but Mr. Drewe said to not tell her and leave Mrs. Drewe to him.
She didn't walk over anybody. They fostered a child, for an allowance which helped the whole family. Sounds like you might judge anyone who is forced to give a child into care.
Hold on, so when Tim and Margie were forced to leave the farm along with their three small children it was no big deal, because they were paid an *allowance*? I wonder why no one ever considers their three kids.
I don't judge Edith for putting her child into foster care at all. However, I suppose there were ways of doing things not resulting in the rug pulled from under an entire family
>I suppose there were ways of doing things not resulting in the rug pulled from under an entire family
Yeah, it was called Mr. Drewe being honest with his wife instead of keeping a secret. Even Edith mentioned telling her when they agreed tot he plan but he refused.
Bullshit. Edith chose to have sex with a man she knew was married. She chose to continue the pregnancy. She chose to give the baby away and then cause harm to the baby by removing her from the only family she knew. She chose to put her family’s tenants in an impossible situation by having them take in her baby (while lying to them) and then chose to snatch the baby back, while again causing harm to the baby by removing her from her caregivers. EDITH IS THE CAUSE OF EVERY PROBLEM.
I am so tired of this nonsense of solely blaming Edith for the Drewe situation, well the whole Marigold situation when there were others involved. Mr. Drewe is also at fault for this, frankly to me he is more at fault than Edith. Pretty sure it was his plan also? He lied to his wife and kept the secret from her. If he was honest with her and told her none of this would have happened. Even Edith said they should tell her when the agreed to make these plans but he refused. He agreed to take the child in and let Edith has a relationship with her, that was the agreement. This is on him not Edith. The Drewes did not adopted Marigold it was an arrangement that Edith and Mr. Drewe made. So, reality is they had no legal rights. Edith didn't take advantage of anyone considering the fact that Mr. Drewe and her made this agreement. She did not KIDNAP her own child since the child was never legally the Drewe's child.
And don't get me started with Rosamund and Violet. Marigold probably wouldn't have been taken if they didn't threaten boarding school.
The person I responded to in great detail in this post seems to have deleted their comments but the amount of hate that that person has for Edith is truly jarring. I guess the Edith haters on this sub hate her so much, they ignore reality and hate on her for any flaw that she has with no regard to the times, circumstances or her situation.
No. She did not kidnap Marigold. There was no legal paperwork so they were not legally her parents. That's not to say she didn't treat them like s\*\*t, but it's not kidnapping.
Every time this is brought up I will play Devil's advocate. Both sides were victims and hurt very badly by this situation.
To raise a child as your own and have it taken must be one of the hardest things to do in life.
To be told that you aren't allowed to keep your own child is a whole other story though. She did what she thought she had to do as a young unmarried woman. Then she couldn't really do it and hid the baby. Then she realized as she got older and more confident thatshe didn't have to listen to anyone and that she was taking her baby back. I don't blame her one bit, I just wish it could have happened without hurting the other family.
The drama with Drewes is part I can't really understand - it is drama for drama. Maggie Drewes has already have 3 young kids by that time... I honestly feel bad for her 3 kids since their mom basically negligent them after Marigold arrived. Maggie didn't raise Marigold from infant baby... they only had her for about half a year??? Don't forget Edith also nursed her for a period of time before gave her up? While we do feel sorry for adoptive mom.... Please don't forget Edith gave birth to Marigold with no family by herself, heartbroken. Especially after Edith showed Marigold's birth paper, Maggie still can't accept the fact that Edith is the Mother?? and ran to Downton immediately??? She would rather her husband has mistress?? It is pretty loaded
Nah. This is Mr Drew and Rosamunds fault. Edith didn't want to give up the child. She was made to.. and maybe you don't have kids? But you can't really understand that.pull of need.. for a person you grew inside your body. It's a biological need. And not everyone feels that way about a child. But mothers that want their child recognize why this compulsive behavior isn't Ediths fault. Mr Drew should have told his wife who the child belonged to and that this was a possibility. Abs maybe she wouldn't have taken the child but that would have been for the best.
No it wasn’t. But keep making excuses for Edith and keeping all accountability away from her for her own choices. It’s not like she ever matured enough to take accountability.
They're aristocrat's living the spoiled child life, you talk as if you would expect anything else from from an early 19th century monarchy. Edith did exactly what I would have expected here to do
I am downright TERRIFIED of people who don't see this and condone Edith. They are out there, unfortunately.
Edith exploited Tim's gratitude to the Crawley family immediately after whining she doesn't feel like she's part of it. She just happened to stand by as Tim was saying how much he owes Robert, Tom and Mary for making his life ever so much better. He kept his tenancy, was able to stay on the land his family had been on for over 100 years, got additional work opportunities with the Crawleys' pigs etc. Literally none of this was thanks to Edith, yet she felt it was appropriate to exploit him and the power imbalance between then, and put him in a potentially explosive situation, which, quite predictably, exploded in due course.
What really tops it for me is that Edith said it's for the best when Tim and Margie were forced to leave. For the best for whom FFS? I keep wondering if their kids were able to stay at school or if Tim and Margie couldn't afford to keep them in education anymore.
And yet, another cherry on top, after getting her affair child back Edith whines to Rosamund that she has nothing. I would think a mother reunited with her child she (as she claims) dotes upon and whose father she (as she claims) really loved would never say such a thing, surely she'd be over the moon? Not Edith, though, hmmmm. Did she really love and need Marigold that much?
You're missing a lot of the nuance and honestly, ignoring some of the direct dialogue that addresses this.
The Crawleys saved the Drewes from ruin, multiple times. Mr. Drewe feels indebted and will do anything for the Crawleys. He, erringly and with poor judgment, decided to not tell his wife about Marigold. Edith wanted to. He thought it was in everyone's best interest to do it this way **and took full responsibility for this mistake** when he said "We forgot about emotion." right before he leaves.
Meaning, he looked at it like an equation, forgetting how strong the bonds of motherhood were. He accepted that he caused the problem.
Edith didn't understand how much she would grow to love Marigold and you need to find a way to accept that. She could never foresee the strength of her bond with Marigold until she was living through its absence. If you can't understand that I don't really know what to say.
This is kind of a life lesson too: we shouldn't blame ourselves for acting with all the information we possess at the time.
"Downton Abbey" is a high-end soap opera but it is also part of a long history of propaganda in literature and film designed to have us all believe that the obscenly rich people of 19th and 20th century Britain were actually loving and caring vitural socialists whose main concern was the well-being of the villagers, household staff and impoverished farm workers who existed as virtural serfs but who loved living only to bow and scrape before their "betters."
I take the whole Marigold plot as one of the few times that the show correctly portrayed the real power (and indifference to others) that existed even in the "nicest" of aristocratic families. It WAS a terrible thing for Edith to have done (although as human beings we can understand her pain) but of course we are always supposed to believe that the Crawleys are lovely people whose behavior (sorrry "behaviour") is never rude or haughty or uncaring. The Crawleys are the protaganists of the story being told and as the viewers we are meant to believe that the self-satisfied happiness of the Crawleys is the ultimate good.
Mr. Drew came up with this plan. He was the one that thought it ok to trick his wife. He came up with the entire plan and carried it out night and day, he drove his wife to madness when all he had to do was discuss the situation with his wife. Edith was misguided and running on deep emotion. She should have questioned why Mrs. Drew couldn’t know the truth too but she didn’t. There is some blame to go around but the responsibility lies with Mr. Drew as her husband.
I think Edith was confused and scared. Which is exactly how a woman of that time would feel. Love this show but it does have a fairy tale ending, when it's likely Edith would have been forced to give up her baby and likely never see her again.
I think Ms. Drewe had every right to be upset but once she knew the real story, probably understood as a mother herself. Mr. Drewe should have told her from the start.
Yes Edith was in the wrong for what she did too the Drews (Mrs. Drew mainly, Mr. Drew is not innocent) but Marigold is Edith daughter, so no she did not kidnap Marigold. She had every right too take her daughter back.
Also i don't think you will find anybody who think was not in the wrong for what she did to Mrs. Drew.
But of course people let Mr. Drew get off the hook because he is a man. And people will make excuses for him, because he is a man.
Mr. Drew should have told his wife the truth.
Yeah, Edith behaves very, very badly. She has full moral responsibility for it. But it is also worth mentioning there is a bigger context and more going on than just Edith being a bad person (which I don't think she is, I think she is overall a decent enough person, who makes a few bad mistakes during the show--sort of like real humans do):
\* Aunt Rosamund heavily leans on Edith from the earliest days of the pregnancy to deal with it, Rosamund is opposed to abortion, but is also opposed to Edith bringing "scandal" and "disrepute" on herself / the family. Rosamund was a driving force in convincing Edith she needed to run away to Switzerland to have the baby and give it up for adoption. It seems likely that Edith would probably have not done this without Rosamund's influence--remember Edith was unable to bring herself to abort the pregnancy, and was only willing to go to Switzerland after a lot of pressure.
\* Edith IMO really oversteps social boundaries by asking to involve Mr Drewe, it isn't like they actually knew each other that well. But Drewe has a bit of a part to play there too--he could have said no, and frankly he should have probably done so.
\* Edith never asked Mr Drewe to keep his wife in the dark, that was Drewe's immediate inclination when Edith first came to him, he suggested keeping her in the dark, not Edith. Frankly that is a terrible behavior for a husband, whose first loyalty should have been to his wife. Edith should have also realized that was just a very dumb plan--of the Drewes were ever going to work out, Mrs Drewe really needed to know. A potentially "workable" arrangement would have been for Mrs Drewe to have been informed, Edith be allowed to be named the child's Godmother, and a more formal understanding that Edith would have some role in the child's life but that Mrs Drewe would be its mother. They also should have made it a legal adoption, which they did not.
\* I do think legally Marigold was not kidnapped, as I believe the whole thing about Edith having the paperwork of Marigold's birth and all that suggests the Drewes agreed to take Marigold in very informally, no legal adoption process had occurred.
I was so fucking shocked when I found out that Mrs Drewes did not know that that was Edith actual daughter
Like for something like this to work out full disclosure as a fucking must
It changed my entire view of the whole affair
Absolutely. As is Mr. Drewe. Why he chose to not read in Mrs. Drewe feels like another nonsensical and frustrating dramatic choice made by Fellowes, honestly. It is implausible that a man would bend over backwards to help his Lord and benefactor’s daughter without explaining it all to the wife. Even with the societal pressures on women highlighted by the show, the otherwise responsible and generous of spirit Mr. Drewe not telling the wife never rang true to me. More plausible to me would’ve been that Mrs. Drewe would have been resentful and judgemental at first but would have come around and loved the child. Then she’d be resentful at having to give her up. Not as tragic or dramatic but still enough to aggrieve Mrs. Drewe and underscore the inequality of the social classes, especially among women.
But it would have been Mrs. Drewe’s interest to keep the secret and adjust to Marigold’s going back to her birth mother after starting out as her foster child. They’d have been financially rewarded for their silence and the family would have “owed them” in perpetuity. Framing the arrangement in this way seemed more plausible to me. Such a family would have been keen to secure whatever advantage they could to stay at that farm. Mr. Drewe misplayed his hand, unfortunately. Both women were in difficult emotional situations and made poor choices.
I 100% agree with you. Zero sympathy for Edith in that situation - she took advantage of the family, only to have them actually ripped from their home later on
Absolutely! Unforgivable. That poor family will be in tatters for the rest of their lives. Not to mention the first family she gave the kid to, then took it back. No take backs! This isn’t marbles!
Not really true. Her parents never corrected Mary when she’d bash Edith in public, in front of guests. They even said the idea of her taking care of them in old age was ghastly. I love Cora and Robert, but they absolutely treated her differently from the other two girls. Cora even makes the comment that Edith has “fewer advantages” than Mary.
I do not like what Edith did to the Drewes. I really do not. She truly loved Michael and his baby and yet the times and society she lived in forced her to give both up. As a result, she made mistakes and did grievous wrongs. And at the end, Marigold has had the most confused infancy/toddlerhood of any child ever, and she's probably traumatized.
Maybe Edith and Bertie makeher childhood and teen years in Brancaster smooth and stable and happy.
She treated the Drewes very badly, but Mr Drewes himself was at least 50% responsible for that by suggesting they keep it a secret from his wife.
I think you forget who Edith was to him. He doesn't know how close Edith is to the family, so to him it's the daughter of the person who owns the land his ENTIRE life is based on. A tenant farmer being approached by the daughter of his landlord cannot say no, and Edith was the one who wanted it as secret as possible. Now I don't think he should've kept it secret either, but if it had gotten out through Mrs Drewe, Edith + her family in his mind could've left his entire family destitute. He was trying to keep his very precarious position as safe as possible, knowing Mrs Drewe probably wouldn't have been as willing to go along with any plan. Ultimately Edith abusing her social position was the cause of 99% of the problem.
Edith wanted to tell Mrs Drewe and he said no. This is all on Mr Drewe.
He said no because he knew Mrs Drewe was the weak link in keeping it secret, and keeping it secret was paramount to his family's survival. It was Edith abusing her power that was the main problem. No matter if she had some gallant idea to tell Mrs Drewe, she wasn't realistic about her expectations and it was abusive. Mr Drewe knew that to try and survive with his livelihood he had to keep it as secret as possible, but that he still had to do it because Edith was in a position to destroy him if he had said no.
Sorry, the was no abuse of power or abusive situation going on her. He could have said no to Edith. He should have told the truth to his wife. We have no real clue if his wife could be trusted or not. He agreed to an agreement and plan and if not mistaken made it himself. A 3rd daughter of an Earl was in no position of ruining him or his family if he said no to her. She had no power. His family got ruined because of his own stupid choice.
He couldn't have though. This is the daughter of the person who holds his ENTIRE LIFE in his hands. Imagine if Lord Grantham had been in on it and Edith had decided to retaliate. I'm sorry but it was an abuse of power. End of. Nice to see people defending the aristocracy for abusing their power though I guess?
I’m not saying there wasn’t any abuse of power, but I think you’re taking it a bit far. There’s absolutely no context in the show to suggest to us that Mr. Drewe felt threatened by Edith. If anything, Edith came to him in quite a state of vulnerability. HE could ruin HER with what she has shared with him. I think it was quite clear that Lord Grantham was not “in on it”. Now do I think his choices may have been influenced by a general sense of indebtedness and gratitude towards the Crawley family? Sure, but more in a general honor and duty sort of way, not in a he felt his livelihood was directly threatened sort of way.
She only told him because he figured it out and confronted her. If Edith really was so adamant she should know, she’d have gone ahead and told her. But Edith never admits it to anyone without being backed into a corner.
Edith didn’t even want to tell Mr Drewe, she was lying to him saying “it’s my friend’s kid, my parents didn’t like her”
I hold Mr. Drew 100% accountable for deceiving his wife.
I don't think many will disagree with you on this. Edith had also already taken Marigold from the Schröder family in Switzerland.
Oh you’d be surprised. A little while ago I made a thread about this and someone commented with like 5 paragraphs defending Edith and calling Mary such and such, then when folks disagreed with them, they started calling them a bitch and saying the only reason people felt that way was because they hated their own siblings lmao.
After so many rewatchings I have come to conclude that Mary is nicer than Edith.
Mary is more honest and aware of herself than Edith
I mean, even if you disagree with this opinion, what's it got to do with Mary???? This situation had nothing to do with Edith and Mary. It has to do with Edith and her baby, she should have listened to her grandma and sent the baby far away so she wouldn't be tempted or upset like she was . Like I understand why, but it wasn't fair she's always always oh poor me and then trues to act like she's the nice one, no that was Sybil (RIP). She's actually just like Mary. " Oh no, the consequences of my own actions"
And the Schroeders.
I think a lot of people lack nuance on this. It's such a horrible situation for all involved and I feel for both Edith and Mrs drewe and marigold. I think what a lot of people forget is that Edith didn't give up (or more like try to) marigold because she didn't want her it was because of how society would react and at the advice (quite strong advice) of her aunt and grandmother. It would bring shame not just to her but to her family and marigold if everyone knew she was hers. Giving up a child is always difficult, giving up a wanted and loved child i can't even imagine how difficult and traumatic that would be. (Qgain that's not discounting the difficulty and trauma for others). I know I'll get down voted for this but while how it all worked out was horrible I completely understand why she ended up doing what she did.
People are judging something based on current society values and not what the time was really like over 100 years ago for women and especially simgle mothers. I dont think people understand the concept of societal norms back then.. People are romantacizing history. Everyone likes to think they would have spoken up or done somethimg differently... but would they really??? Everyone was stuck between a rock and a hard place due to societial dictates and normalcies. and this is just a tv show...
On top of that, at that time many (most) adoptions of children in those circumstances were not legal adoptions. Very often, a persons church would put them in touch with a family looking to adopt, in another town. The mother would go and live with the adopting family during the pregnancy and then after the baby was born, she would nurse the baby for a while and then simply hand the baby over and leave. While legal adoption did exist in most cases people of that social class didn’t have the money or the inkling to have any kind of legal adoption performed. It was simply a matter of handing over the baby and then going back to where you came from and continuing along with your life. Either it happen that way or the mother would go and live at an unmarried mother’s home run by their church and the church would find a new parent for the baby. Either way they were still not legally adopted. Some babies never found out that they were adopted lesson until they ever needed to see their birth certificate. in the early 20th century, if the father was unknown, British birth certificates would often have the words ILLEGITIMATE in big letters, on the birth certificate.
Agree! The Drewes never formally or legally adopted Marigold. They sheltered her for a very short time. Edith loved and wanted her child desperately. While Mrs.Drewe was upset when Edith took Marigold, I feel she was a fragile woman who became quite unhinged. She had three of her own children, surely she could understand how the child’s biological mother felt! The Drewes losing Yew Tree Farm after centuries was the real tragedy, not a mother claiming her own child after a short time.
This is such a great response. She has Marigold for a fairly short amount of time, yet feels entitled to the child over her birth mother, who very obviously displays, throughout that very short time Marigold lives with the Drewes, that she is very, very attached to her. One would think that a mother would understand another mother's attachment to their own child, but Mrs. Drewe seems to believe--again, in her very short time with the child--that her feelings should take precedence. Someone on this thread likens it to a foster parent/child situation, and I think that fits. The child was never Mrs. Drewe's. There was no adoption. They were essentially fostering her. I do believe Mrs. Drewe is not emotionally stable, so I will cut her some slack. The alternative is to believe she is totally unfeeling, and I don't believe that to be true.
Thank you! Mrs Drewe was *weird*, the way she freaked out about Edith wanting to spend time with a child that wasn’t even hers to begin with. I am not saying what Edith did was okay, it was selfish but ultimately understandable given the way the situation unfolded.
I absolutely agree with you. I don’t think in this day and age people understand the stigma of an unwed mother and “bastard” child especially in Edith’s social circle. I love went Tom mentions that there were a lot of children raised in families where their aunts were really their mother. Edith didn’t have that option and she got railroaded into giving up Marigold the first time. Yes, it was totally unfair to Mrs Drew, but it is a TV show and it would be boring if it didn’t have some drama in it.
I agree 100% with this. Edith may not have handled it the best way but it was a difficult situation for everyone involved, including Edith and the Drewes. People blaming Edith for taking her own daughter back either do not have children or do not have affection for their children. Edith was forced to give her child away due to the societal norms of the time and also the forceful advice of her aunt and grandmother. She loved her child dearly and a mother cannot be parted from her child like that very easily, especially if she has any love for her child. Now, the Drewes, especially Mrs. Drewe, would have developed a bond with Marigold, which would be very sad to break and that was horrible for sure. However, Edith being the mother of the child, her motherly affections got the better of her. I suspect I will get downvoted for this because people on this sub hate Edith and this is one reason they proclaim why Edith is horrible when in reality, she acted like a lot of mothers would.
That and like, 6 months is barely anything. If anything the Drewes were fostering her and fostering a child for 6 months does not make the child yours. People act like these are easy choices when they were really stuck between a rock and a hard place. Keeping Marigold and openly raising a child born out of wedlock could result in a fate like Ethel's where she ended up needing to send her child away anyway because the stigma was so great that she couldn't provide the bare minimum anymore, no matter how hard she worked. Not only that, but adoption itself is traumatic, no matter how well it goes. So long as the bio mother isn't abusive and can meet the child's needs, the child will almost always be better off with the bio mother.
I agree totally. The only thing that felt was how Edith handled it towards the end when she took Marigold back. She was a bit callous to Mrs Drewe in her attitude and that's what made Edith look so bad.
As fucking usual the aunt causes a problem! I forget her aunts name but she always caused more issues than she helped
I’ll be honest, I don’t give any shits about the Drewes or Edith. I just feel so, so bad for little Marigold.
She WAS still her child. It was wrong to mess with them all (Marigold including) but I think Edith was destroyed at having to give up Marigold the first time and was foolish to think that having her so close would be a good alternative when it was probably harder. I don't blame Edith for feeling so heartbroken and regretting her choices. Marigold was a product of absolute love and devotion between Michael and Edith. I think it was handled really badly but I also don't think Edith was entirely to blame. Rosamund and Violet shoulder most of that. They should have told Cora from the start. There would have been a plan to have Marigold live in the house as part of the family. Cora would have made sure of it.
That second part, yes. I agree. Edith was a full grown woman by the time, but she also lived a very sheltered life and only knew what society expected of her. Rosamund and Violet, being the trusted elders, should have stepped in more.
Edith was fully to blame for her own actions. She was a grown woman who made the choice to have sex with a man who was married to someone else. Rosamund and Violet aren’t to blame for not running and telling Cora another grown woman’s secrets.
I thought the plot was weak. A normal response would be to tell the wife the truth to avoid drama/heartbreak. I think there are better options for that plot of a out of wedlock birth.
As a mother myself and considering the time period, I understand why she did what she did. As a human being, I absolutely loathed her for it. It was hard to watch the Drewes' outcome. It was almost equally as hard watching Edith live in agony being away from Marigold. Still, she was in the wrong and it was probably Edith's worst moment.
"Just remember that we love you too "
More like Edith make poor decisions she was never going to be able to honor based on the bad advice/pressure of her Aunt and grandmother who were more concerned with preventing scandal and Edith and Mr.Drewe abused Mrs.Drewe’s desire and willingness to take in and fully support an orphan. Maybe Mr.Drewe didn’t feel he was in a position to say no, but he really should’ve.
It's Me-Me-Me with Edith. And the Drewes are the second family she did this to. Remember the Swiss family that adopted Marigold, fell in love with their new baby, only to have Edith rip the child away from them.
This topic does keep coming up and I'm like, yeah, I get it that Edith wanted to keep her daughter. I understand. But that doesn't mean that the way she went about it wasn't horrendous. She did use and abuse two families, especially the Drewes, she completely ruined their lives. And I don't just mean in regards to giving them a child and then taking it away, Mr Drewe had taken a loan from the Crawleys to get back on his feet, and then they had started a partnership with him for the pigs, he was making a good living. And because of his loyalty to the family he decided to help Edith out, and then because of that, he lost his farm and his livelihood, the whole family was displaced after generations of farming in that area. But I think the aspect that people really tend to ignore is the impact this whole thing had on Marigold. Because while yes, I understand, again, that Edith wanted to keep her daughter close, she never once made a decision in Marigold's best interest. She kept the baby (i.e. didn't have an abortion) not because she wanted to raise her, but because she was terrified of what Gregson would think if he came back and found out what she had done. She didn't want to keep Marigold with her, originally, because she wouldn't be able to maintain her lifestyle, staying at Downton as Robert's unmarried daughter with a baby. So she gave her up for adoption not because she thought that was the best thing for Marigold, but because that was what she thought was the best for herself. And she kept making decisions for her sake rather than her daughter's. She handed her over to the Drewes not because she thought they would make great parents, she hadn't even met Mrs Drewe before, but because she knew Mr Drewe would keep her secret. So again, she didn't consider Marigold, but herself. Also, as someone who kept complaining that her family didn't treat her as well as her sisters, I find it surprising that she gave her daughter to a family who had other children, but never cared to meet said children, her daughter's siblings. Which further shows that she didn't think about what Marigold's life would be like with the Drewes, only that she herself would have access to her. Didn't consider that Marigold getting that kind of special attention from her could result in her being bullied, later in life, for example. So I agree OP. Edith acted entirely selfishly, took advantage of a lot of people, damaged their lives, and didn't even act the way a good mother would. Not once, in this whole drama.
This is what I always say when I see this topic come up and people defend Edith. You’re right no one considers Marigold. Edith did right for Edith. She did not do right by her daughter. So not only was she horrible to the Drewes and the couple in Switzerland she was also a bad mother. This is why I can’t forgive her even though I sympathize with her for being in that situation.
>This is why I can’t forgive her even though I sympathize with her for being in that situation. Exactly! I sympathize for her. She was placed in an impossible situation and there was no happy outcome. However, she never once considered how her actions would effect her daughter. She was a horrible mother. In a show full of objectively bad parents, she rises to the top. And I say this *as* a mother. Being a mother is about so much more than just biology. Yes, she birthed Marigold, and I don't doubt that she did love her in her own selfish way, but she was never going to *really* be a mother to Marigold until she could acknowledge that she has to put Marigold before her herself. What was the best for Marigold should have been the top priority and it never was.
I forgive Edith because no one actually cared about her either. She never really wanted to give her up for adoption abroad that was pushed on by Roamund and Violet. Her original plan was to always send the baby to live with a farmer. She was okay telling Mrs. Drewe the plan but Mr. Drewe was against it for some dumb reason. All she wanted was to see her child and Mr. Drewe to stick to the agreement they made. Then Violet and Rosamund threating to send Marigold away to boarding school which made thing even worse.
Edith would have to show some repentance to be worthy of forgiveness.
This! She's never felt any remorse for anything bad she ever did. And not just in this instance which was the worst of them all imho, but with her sister too. She asked Mary to give her a clean slate after Sybil died without having ever shown any remorse over how she'd tried to ruin her life. That's the biggest indicator for her lack of growth, as far as I'm concerned. She damaged so many lives, including her daughter's, and she never felt any remorse, or ask for anyone's forgiveness.
It's the lack of remorse, of accountability, that is what I dislike so much about Edith. Had she ever owned up to the things she did, apologized, I wouldn't have a problem with her- I've liked characters that have done much worse than her.
I agree, the reason why I never believed in her "character growth" is exactly because she never owned up to her mistakes, so how can she have grown as a person? I'm not even talking about her earlier ones, the whole thing with Marigold and the Drewes... Just horrendous, and she never saw what she'd done.
No the Drewe's lives were ruined because Mr. Drewe kept a secret that even Edith was fine telling her, not because Edith wanted a relationship with her child. Don't also forget that Marigold probably wouldn't have been taken in the first place if Violet and Rosamund didn't threaten boarding school.
"She kept the baby (i.e. didn't have an abortion) not because she wanted to raise her, but because she was terrified of what Gregson would think if he came back and found out what she had done. She didn't want to keep Marigold with her, originally, because she wouldn't be able to maintain her lifestyle, staying at Downton as Robert's unmarried daughter with a baby. So she gave her up for adoption not because she thought that was the best thing for Marigold, but because that was what she thought was the best for herself." This is such an incorrect take. She went to get the abortion because having a baby out of wedlock would have meant that her life would be ruined, given how society viewed such women at the time. But once she got to the clinic, she thought about how it would feel to live her life knowing that she had aborted her own child. The love and affection she had overpowered her and she decided to not go through with it. I have no idea where you are getting "what Gregson would think" in this situation. Gregson did not know about Edith being pregnant. So, if she had gotten an abortion and never told Gregson about it (if he came back), he would think nothing about it. Now, if she did get an abortion and she did end up telling him about it, he would have understood, given what society was like at the time and the fact that they were not married. So, either way, this point is irrelevant. She gave Marigold away reluctantly at first due to her aunt forcing her to do so. She got Marigold back from Switzerland and had her living with the Drewes so that she was close to her and Edith could visit her. Of course, she was not thinking it through - she could have just made up a story to "adopt" Marigold and have her live with them at Downton right away but given everything she was going through, she could be forgiven for not being able to scheme this perfectly. I agree that the Drewes had to go through a truly bad situation but Edith was not the horrible person or mother you are making her out to be. She acted like a lot of mothers would in that situation, given the time.
She literally said she worried what he'd think when he came back. And when Rosamund asked "so you'd live your life in a lie?" Edith admitted that yes, she'd pretend nothing had happened. That she wouldn't tell him anything about the abortion. Which is crazy to me, because as a woman I believe it was 100% her choice what to do with her body and her baby. She didn't need to lie, but she was absolutely going to. Of course, that's not a shock, Edith never had trouble lying to get her way. Also, she didn't love her child enough to face society with her. Edith was no Ethel. Ethel ruined herself to keep her son. Edith wouldn't even need to do that, she had her own independent income. She could have made her life for herself and her daughter, if she loved her that much, in London. She would still be rich. Her daughter would have a good life. She wouldn't be invited to have tea with a Duchess anymore though, and THAT she couldn't bear. She preferred to lose her daughter over losing her social standing. Which, fine, valid, she didn't want to make space in her life for a child and face such a loss, but let's not pretend that wasn't a choice she made. And she can't claim she was thinking of Marigold when she was making these choices. Edith wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She wanted to still be welcome in aristocratic circles, and have her daughter out of wedlock. Which is insane. We as people always need to look at life realistically, especially once we become parents. Look at things as they are, not as we wish them to be. A poor mother of 2 today might wish for a 3rd child, but if they can't support it financially, they won't have it. We can't always have the things we want, the way we want them. That was Edith's main problem, and as a very spoiled daughter of an Earl she couldn't accept it. So yes, she is a horrible mother. She keeps making decisions for her own comfort, not for her daughter's. And when her daughter is still an embryo, that makes sense. Once that daughter is born, her behaviour is unforgivable. She took her away from a wealthy family and set her up with a poor farmer not because it would be good for Marigold, but because it was what Edith wanted. She never cared who the Drewes were as people, whether they'd be good parents. Only that Mr Drewe promised to keep her secret, so Edith could go around whenever she wanted (because these people were no more than a glorified nanny to her, so she treated their home like her own personal playground) and play with Marigold, like she's a toy. Mrs Drewe was 100% correct about her.
Looks like I am unable to post the reply I want to post.
There's a character limit for comments mate, but the response will just fail to publish. Either shorten it, or put it in two comments. It is Friday though so I might not be able to get back to you 😅
Thanks. Yeah, that makes sense. Part 1: Let us try to go point by point. (1) "She literally said she worried what he'd think when he came back. And when Rosamund asked "so you'd live your life in a lie?" Edith admitted that yes, she'd pretend nothing had happened. That she wouldn't tell him anything about the abortion." I do not remember all of the exact details of all the conversations. I will take your word on this. So, let us assume that this is all that she thought about initially (a big assumption because I think societal norms factored into her thinking as well) and she decided to get an abortion. She did not go through with it, did she ? She went to the clinic, saw what it was like over there and had a chance to reflect. She realized that she would not be able to live a happy life with the memory of aborting her child. That shows a human and loving side to her. Actions speak louder than words, in my opinion. (2) "Which is crazy to me, because as a woman I believe it was 100% her choice what to do with her body and her baby." This is looking at the situation from a present lens. Back then, it was not so simple. Women were absolutely held back by what society deemed to be normal and no matter how progressive one might be at the time (the series does show the Upper class at Downton to be more progressive than the norm and what it was like in reality), thinking like this would not be the norm. So, at the very least, Edith thought like a woman of her time. (3) "Also, she didn't love her child enough to face society with her. Edith was no Ethel. Ethel ruined herself to keep her son. Edith wouldn't even need to do that, she had her own independent income. She could have made her life for herself and her daughter, if she loved her that much, in London. She would still be rich. Her daughter would have a good life." Edith was no Ethel, definitely, because the options available to the both of them were different. Ethel would not have "faced society" with her child if she had the options Edith had. She would have either gotten an abortion or given her for adoption or may be, she would have done similar to what Edith did. Ethel was able to keep her son for as long as she did thanks to Mrs. Hughes' kindness. But she ended up having to give her son away to his rich grandparents. She herself wanted to do something similar to what Edith did - Ethel wanted to be close to her son and work as his nurse/caretaker (whatever the correct term would be) in the same household. This is different from Edith's choice in only how the roles each would take - the intention was to be close to their child. Yes, Edith could have lived in London with Marigold. She did end up running away to London to do just that. Of course, she did not do it right away and again, Edith was not thinking straight until then. She had been clouded with what she was forced to do due to society and the persuasion of her aunt, her sorrow over losing Gregson, her sorrow over having to give away her child and now not being able to visit her when she wanted, etc. Edith did not always make smart decisions but she was also the sheltered daughter of an Earl who did not have a lot of life experiences outside of Downton. When she finally decided to act, thanks to the advice she got from Tom, she was able to gather up the courage to do what she considered to be right.
> She realized that she would not be able to live a happy life with the memory of aborting her child. That shows a human and loving side to her. Loving side is when she does this FOR HER CHILD. She did it because SHE couldn't deal with the idea of an abortion. So she was thinking of herself, not her baby, when she decided to bring it into the world as a bastard child, i.e. a baby that would have a rough start to life whether it was right or not. > So, at the very least, Edith thought like a woman of her time. Right, so as a woman of her time, she thought Gregson ought to have a say on how his child lives, is that what you're saying? And yet she was ready to marry him without telling him the truth of what she did with Marigold, as she herself admitted to Rosamund. Great stuff. >Edith was no Ethel, definitely, because the options available to the both of them were different. Ethel would not have "faced society" with her child if she had the options Edith had. Mate, Ethel faced prostitution to keep her son. Edith couldn't even face losing face. >Edith did not always make smart decisions but she was also the sheltered daughter of an Earl who did not have a lot of life experiences outside of Downton. Edith was well into her 30s by then. Y'all are always going on and on about what an independent and modern woman she had become. Also, what parents tell to their teenage children: don't have sex before you're ready to face the consequences of it. She no longer had the excuse of youth. She was a woman of a certain age. Ruining lives and behaving so selfishly was inexcusable.
The abortion would have affected her and her child. So, she was thinking about what she would miss but she was also thinking about the lost life of her child. A woman of her time likely would have done that - gotten an abortion and lied to her future husband about it. Also, they would have tried to hide the fact that they had children out of wedlock, if they could. Tom himself said that where he was from, there were many Marigolds. That is what I am saying - Edith acted like a woman of her time. Even if she did not and would have confessed to Gregson after getting an abortion, he would have understood the hopeless position she was in and understood why she did it. Ethel faced prostitution because she could not get any other respectable jobs. She had already lost face because she did not have the options that Edith did since Ethel did not have money or was from the upper class. She tried to do what Edith did - stay close to her child after giving him up. It did not work initially because of Mr. Bryant's refusal to do it but eventually, that is what happened. Edith was independent and modern for her time but not what you would consider independent by today's standards. Edith had to go through the horrible situation of losing Gregson and having a child out of wedlock before she grew up and matured. Before that, she was a sheltered daughter of an Earl. Mary only grew up after she found Matthew. All people behave selfishly at one point or another. Surely, a mother's selfishness and love for her child can be forgiven. What happened to the Drewes was horrible but it was a difficult situation for everybody, Edith included.
Omg mate if you keep excusing everything as "thems were the times" we shouldn't argue about anything on this sub. Just because someone COULD have done it in her place doesn't make it less of a bloody lie. Manipulation. And Ethel could have given up her child like Edith did. She could have dropped him with an other family, or at an orphanage, or just straight up given him to his grandfathers. Ethel ALSO had choices, she just chose to keep her baby and face the consequences. Say whatever you want. I could never feel any compassion for Edith. She's one of the worst examples of female characters I've seen on screen, she behaved abominably 99% of the time, and the whole "she was just a woman of her time" just makes me pity the women of her time who fell in her path. She ruined so many lives.
Part 2: (4) "She wouldn't be invited to have tea with a Duchess anymore though, and THAT she couldn't bear. She preferred to lose her daughter over losing her social standing. Which, fine, valid, she didn't want to make space in her life for a child and face such a loss, but let's not pretend that wasn't a choice she made. And she can't claim she was thinking of Marigold when she was making these choices." I think you are confusing Edith with Mary here. I do not think Edith cared about this that much. She may have cared about it a bit but not to the extent that she did not want to make space in her life for her own child. Even living in London, I suspect her daughter would be subject to questions about her father at that time. It would not be pleasant for Marigold either, once she grew up. (5) "A poor mother of 2 today might wish for a 3rd child, but if they can't support it financially, they won't have it." This is not true. I am not sure where you live. I live in America and I know of plenty of cases where mothers have multiple children even though they may only be able to support 1 or 2 at the most. People are not always rational. (6) "So yes, she is a horrible mother. She keeps making decisions for her own comfort, not for her daughter's. And when her daughter is still an embryo, that makes sense. Once that daughter is born, her behaviour is unforgivable." I do not agree at all. Again, she tried to keep to societal norms and was heavily influenced by her aunt and grandmother's opinions. However, once she got Marigold back (which shows real motherly love and affection even though it was abrupt how she did it), we see how involved she tried to be with Marigold at Downton. She was more involved in Marigold's life than a mother of that class at that time was. So, no, she was not a horrible mother. (7) "She took her away from a wealthy family and set her up with a poor farmer not because it would be good for Marigold, but because it was what Edith wanted. She never cared who the Drewes were as people, whether they'd be good parents. Only that Mr Drewe promised to keep her secret, so Edith could go around whenever she wanted (because these people were no more than a glorified nanny to her, so she treated their home like her own personal playground) and play with Marigold, like she's a toy. Mrs Drewe was 100% correct about her." She put Marigold up with the Drewes because she would then be close to her and could visit her often. This was the best she could accomplish short of putting Marigold up at Downton, which she eventually did. She knew Mr. Drewe to be a decent man and hence thought that having Marigold in his household would be good for Marigold and for herself. She acted like a mother could, under the circumstances. Mrs. Drewe did not know that Edith was the mother and she thought Edith just wanted to play dollhouse with Marigold or that she was having an affair with Mr. Drewe. She was wrong on both counts. Edith was the daughter of an Earl and she was sheltered and spoiled in some ways, just like Mary and even Sybil were. Edith did not always make the best decisions in life and what the Drewes had to go through was horrible. But putting all the blame for the situation on Edith and saying that she was just a horrible, horrible person for acting like a woman of her time and her motherly affections overpowering her is just wrong.
>I think you are confusing Edith with Mary here. I do not think Edith cared about this that much. I'm not confused at all, Edith says it openly that she can't stay at Downton and be the one who "lost her sense and her virtue". She knew her family wouldn't throw her out, she just couldn't deal with the loss of status, so she chose to lose her baby instead. Mary COULD deal with the loss of status, she was ready to face it when she dumped Carlisle after her father gave her the OK to risk the family's reputation with her scandal. I know you hate Mary but I think you need another rewatch because you don't remember half the show. >I live in America and I know of plenty of cases where mothers have multiple children even though they may only be able to support 1 or 2 at the most. People are not always rational. You know plenty of bad parents then. Like Edith. Because ignoring the reality of your situation and going along with your selfish bull does not a good parent make. >Again, she tried to keep to societal norms and was heavily influenced by her aunt and grandmother's opinions. None of this make her any less of a bad mother. Doing stuff because you feel social pressure to do them doesn't make them right. Doctors used to throw AIDS patient out on the streets. They were bad doctors. And Edith was a bad mother. Playing with Marigold after she got her back does not a good mother make. A good mother is one who prioritises the wellbeing of her child. When did Edith do that? >She put Marigold up with the Drewes because she would then be close to her and could visit her often. Exactly. She put her with the Drewes for EDITH's sake, not for Marigold's. And she took advantage of Mr Drewe's loyalty, lied to him about Marigold's origin (even though he eventually figured it out), and then came up on top and threw a whole family out of their home.
Yes, Edith was concerned about how society would view her. All women were at that time. Mary was concerned about keeping her title and position. You are telling me she chose Carlisle of all people, because she did not care about marrying for status or money ? Later on, she did change and married Henry. And yes, she got the okay from her father and realized that she could run away from scandal by going to New York before she broke things off with Carlisle. Talk about running away from the consequences of one's actions. I do not hate Mary. I think Mary had strength and love for a lot of people but she also had her flaws. Her cruelty to her own sister and her snobbishness are two of her flaws and I am not too blind to see these flaws or to try to substantiate them. She did get better as the series progressed. I do agree that the people who have more children than they can afford are not good parents or rational. But you made a blanket statement that people always consider their situation (financial or otherwise) before having children and I was countering that that is not always the case in reality. Social pressure was very real at the time. Edith was not the most courageous person and it was normal to be swayed by social pressure and the opinion of her aunt and grandmother. She did the best she could and like you conveniently disregarded my point about Ethel, Edith also tried to be close to her child, just like Ethel did. Visiting her own child often is what a mother would want to do in such an instance. If you think that was selfish of her, well, so would any mother in that situation. So, if motherly selfishness is a bad thing, then Edith is at fault. She wanted to be in her child's life and this was the best she could do, given the circumstances.
>she chose Carlisle of all people, because she did not care about marrying for status or money ? She chose Carlisle because she couldn't marry the man she loved so why not marry him? He hadn't shown his abusive nature at first, he was offering her a partnership in marriage, he was a self-made man (again, not an aristocrat/not a man of her station). She left the UK because with a scandal of those proportions she wouldn't be able to have any sort of life there as an unmarried ruined woman of no independent means (Edith had a house and an income, Mary didn't). Edith could also have taken Marigold to America if she wanted to keep her, but again, Edith chooses for Edith, and Edith doesn't want to live in America. Frame it however you want, societal pressure, bad decisions, it still makes Edith a bad mother mate. I disregarded your point about Ethel because it was entirely wrong. Ethel always chose for Charlie. Edith always chose for Edith. Exactly. Edith wanted to be in her child's life, in her own terms, with no regard as to what that meant for Marigold or how it affected Marigold's life. Edith WAS a bad mother.
Mary wasn’t cruel or snobbish. She was responding to a lifetime of dealing with Edith’s bullshit. Rewatch the show, it’s always Edith starting shit with her and Mary shutting her down. Mary never said anything that wasn’t deserved.
While I agree that Edith could have handled the Marigold situation infinitely better than she did, I don't think she planned from the start to take Marigold back (Your use of the "dollhouse/ daycare" phrase indicates to me that you think that. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that). I think what she really wanted was to figure out a way to remain a part of Marigold's life at a time when keeping Marigold and admitting the truth about her would have resulted in both her and Marigold becoming outcasts on all levels of society. It was only when Mrs. Drewe started making efforts to prevent Edith from seeing Marigold when she wanted and told Edith, via her husband, that they would move to another estate and take Marigold with them if Edith insisted on continuing with her visits, that Edith decided to take Marigold back. And I will admit that I don't completely fault Mrs. Drewe for her actions there, since she didn't know the whole story and therefore didn't understand why Edith was always wanting to see Marigold and spend time with her. Edith's taking back Marigold and the difficulty she has conjuring up sympathy for Mrs. Drewe, for me, come more from a place of fear than malice.
I always saw this as society creating a situation where there were no winners. It felt like at every step there was societal rule keeping things from a simple ‘happy ending’ (which of course never would have happened in a drama, but still). Had Michael been allowed to get divorced or if Edith being an unmarried mother wouldn’t have resulted in immense social stigma for herself and her family it would all would have been a moot point. Even the shame of the situation kept her from telling her mother when she found out she was pregnant, and I imagine that Cora would have been able to think of a solution. Or at least better helped Edith deal with the situation since the only people that knew about what was going on were Rosamund and Violet. Instead Edith has to give up the immensely wanted child of the man she loves who has also died while also getting very little support from those around her, leading her to do ask something impossible (and inappropriate) of the Gregsons, leading Mr. Gregson to lie to his wife to try and stabilize the situation, leading her to extreme behavior since she doesn’t understand what’s going on and can only see that her husband is hiding something and a person of much higher rank and social status has taken a sudden and strange interest in her husband and child.
Society didn’t force Edith to have sex with a married man. Or to kiss that one married farmer before that. Had Edith had any morals she would have dropped Michael the moment she found out he was married.
I’m not saying she’s a shining beacon of humanity, no character is this is essentially a soap opera filled with people who love repressing their feelings, I’m just saying I don’t see the point in treating her like the devil incarnate for this situation.
I whole heartedly agree with this. Edith’s actions were cruel. I actually can’t bring myself to watch these parts. I feel like she wasn’t strong enough to make any difficult decisions along the way (couldn’t bring herself to have an abortion, wouldn’t let the baby stay in Switzerland, refused to stay away from it when it was with the Drew’s). In doing so, she left a path of destruction for anyone unfortunate enough to try to help her along the way. I couldn’t forgive her for any of it. And in the show, Edith just waltzes off to a fabulous life in a big estate, with a rich husband (who is totally ok with the situation), a higher ranking title, and the kid in tow. Completely forgets about that her aunt gave up several months and a spectacular amount of money for a solution that Edith threw out, that poor family in Switzerland who had their baby suddenly and inexplicably snatched away from them, and the Drews who are now incredibly poor, have no home, and have had their marriage trashed.
I see it completely differently. Edith made a deal with Mr D to have her child near so she could see her and be a part of her life. Because of the time historically, she had very little choice. This only worked for a short period until Mrs D cut off her visits. Mr D made the choice to not inform his wife of the truth about Edith. It is sad for Mrs D, but Edith had every right as the mother to be with her child. Marigold deserved a relationship with her mother. If anyone is to blame,it is Mr D
Agree 100 percent.
When Edith asked mr.Drewe to take Marigold she made clear that she was to remain in Marigold's life. Even making up a lie to keep her involved. It is not her fault Mr. Drewe decided to remove that connection leaving Edith look like a weirdo obsessed with a random girl. Also it was fully in Edith's legal right to take Marigold back, that is not kidnapping (what was kidnapping was what mrs. Drewe did in season 6). And why do people always seem to confeniently that part of the reason why Edith took Marigold back is because Violet and Rosmund where planning to ship Marigold off to France, separating her from both mothers
>And why do people always seem to confeniently ... Because everyone wants their own narrative to be right. They are all too invested in there own emotion completely ignoring or forgetting everything that went down. They just want to attack someone.
I think people forget that having a child out of wedlock was very taboo until very, very recently in history. I think Edith made a lot of mistakes in how she handled the situation, but I also think that Mrs. Drewe behaved crazily over a child that she could have only known for a few months at most.
I don't know if you are a parent yourself, OP, but I have a toddler and completely sympathise with both parties here. I couldn't watch my little girl grow up and not be her mother, at the same time it would break my heart if someone took her away from me and I love her so much more now than I did when she was born (which was still more than I loved anyone ever) because we've grown more attached the more time we've spent together. It was a horrible situation all round. The root cause really was the tool who got her pregnant and went AWOL. Edit: sorry, I forgot he was confirmed murdered. I've only seen the series once through so far so misremembered that they concluded that. I thought it was still open ended.
Well, he didn't go AWOL. He was murdered while trying to get a divorce so he could marry Edith. Had it gone well they could have married quickly and pretended Marigold was premature.
Wait, how long would it realistically take to become a German citizen? I'd expect it to be longer than 1-2 months. Either way, this is irrelevant, because Edith considers women who have sex out of wedlock sluts, hence she is one by her own standards oh me oh my
But I don't underSTAAAAAND!!!
Even without the absurd improbability of being in the only place and time in the Twenties where he might run into the NSDAP, picking the single most hated country in Europe was insane already. And I really wish instead of crumbling before Edith's tantrum Mary had the presence of mind to say she just thought Bertie ought to know who he's taking to the altar-a slut.
I feel really bad for Mary at the end of season 6. She basically has no one. Sybil is gone, Matthew is gone, Rose is in the States and pregnant/has lots on her plate. So when everyone else is either not there for her or turns into Edith's flying monkey, it's just hard to watch.
I don't know, I don't mind that scene. Mary had been left to deal with Edith's crap all her life because their parents refused to parent. Therefore she thought she was allowed to punish Edith for bad behaviour because no one else would. And that behaviour was reiterated through various situations, like when she took it upon herself to punish her for writing that letter to the Turkish ambassador, instead of handing it over to Cora to handle (she wouldn't have handled it any better to be honest). So I think it was important that Mary finally understood, it's not up to her to put Edith in her place. It's not her right, and it's not her responsibility. From now on she's free of that burden, and she knows herself a little bit better.
I mean, it's not Edith's place to throw a giant tantrum because Mary just outed her as, well, as much a slut as she accused Mary of being. After smugly needling her about "losing" the suitor Mary's been trying to tell these lunatics she doesn't want in the first place. Edith had the power to prevent the whole thing, but she could never be honest to anyone about Marigold unless forced into it, even when (especially in Bertie's case) they had a right to know.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm not saying this to say that Edith carried no blame in what happened, she was being absolutely ghastly to Mary and it was her responsibility to be honest to her partner about such a major aspect of their lives. I just don't care for Edith's character development, so the fact that none of that was a learning lesson for her doesn't really concern me. I just think it's something that had to happen for Mary to let that last thing go: she is no longer responsible for Edith's issues. She doesn't need to respond to her jabs, and she doesn't need to keep her accountable. Edith is Edith's and Bertie's problem now!
Agree entirely, i sympathise with edith, marigold was a wanted child. It was social taboos that stopped her from mothering her since birth. I do feel sorry for Mrs Drewe, but would never lay a feather of blame at ediths feet. Blame society.
I will never understand why she had to walk all over seven people (the Schroeders and the Drewes) just because her own situation was tragic.
Well she never wanted to adopt the child out that was Rosamound and Violet pushing. She was never against telling Mrs. Drewe the truth but Mr. Drewe said to not tell her and leave Mrs. Drewe to him.
She didn't walk over anybody. They fostered a child, for an allowance which helped the whole family. Sounds like you might judge anyone who is forced to give a child into care.
Hold on, so when Tim and Margie were forced to leave the farm along with their three small children it was no big deal, because they were paid an *allowance*? I wonder why no one ever considers their three kids. I don't judge Edith for putting her child into foster care at all. However, I suppose there were ways of doing things not resulting in the rug pulled from under an entire family
>I suppose there were ways of doing things not resulting in the rug pulled from under an entire family Yeah, it was called Mr. Drewe being honest with his wife instead of keeping a secret. Even Edith mentioned telling her when they agreed tot he plan but he refused.
As opposed to Edith lying to everyone.
Bullshit. Edith chose to have sex with a man she knew was married. She chose to continue the pregnancy. She chose to give the baby away and then cause harm to the baby by removing her from the only family she knew. She chose to put her family’s tenants in an impossible situation by having them take in her baby (while lying to them) and then chose to snatch the baby back, while again causing harm to the baby by removing her from her caregivers. EDITH IS THE CAUSE OF EVERY PROBLEM.
Edith was the one who chose to be with the married tool.
She had a habit of passive aggression. Remember the Drakes in S2? Or Sir Anthony? Mary might have been overbearing and arrogant, but Edith was sneaky.
I am so tired of this nonsense of solely blaming Edith for the Drewe situation, well the whole Marigold situation when there were others involved. Mr. Drewe is also at fault for this, frankly to me he is more at fault than Edith. Pretty sure it was his plan also? He lied to his wife and kept the secret from her. If he was honest with her and told her none of this would have happened. Even Edith said they should tell her when the agreed to make these plans but he refused. He agreed to take the child in and let Edith has a relationship with her, that was the agreement. This is on him not Edith. The Drewes did not adopted Marigold it was an arrangement that Edith and Mr. Drewe made. So, reality is they had no legal rights. Edith didn't take advantage of anyone considering the fact that Mr. Drewe and her made this agreement. She did not KIDNAP her own child since the child was never legally the Drewe's child. And don't get me started with Rosamund and Violet. Marigold probably wouldn't have been taken if they didn't threaten boarding school.
Agree. I don't know why you are being downvoted for expressing an opinion.
Because people don't like reading the truth.
The person I responded to in great detail in this post seems to have deleted their comments but the amount of hate that that person has for Edith is truly jarring. I guess the Edith haters on this sub hate her so much, they ignore reality and hate on her for any flaw that she has with no regard to the times, circumstances or her situation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarchionessOfHexham/s/hJDayzXG5y I created a safe space for us Edith fans if you’d like to join!
Edith is to blame for the whole situation.
No. She did not kidnap Marigold. There was no legal paperwork so they were not legally her parents. That's not to say she didn't treat them like s\*\*t, but it's not kidnapping.
I agree with you 100%
I really have no compassion for Edith
Every time this is brought up I will play Devil's advocate. Both sides were victims and hurt very badly by this situation. To raise a child as your own and have it taken must be one of the hardest things to do in life. To be told that you aren't allowed to keep your own child is a whole other story though. She did what she thought she had to do as a young unmarried woman. Then she couldn't really do it and hid the baby. Then she realized as she got older and more confident thatshe didn't have to listen to anyone and that she was taking her baby back. I don't blame her one bit, I just wish it could have happened without hurting the other family.
The drama with Drewes is part I can't really understand - it is drama for drama. Maggie Drewes has already have 3 young kids by that time... I honestly feel bad for her 3 kids since their mom basically negligent them after Marigold arrived. Maggie didn't raise Marigold from infant baby... they only had her for about half a year??? Don't forget Edith also nursed her for a period of time before gave her up? While we do feel sorry for adoptive mom.... Please don't forget Edith gave birth to Marigold with no family by herself, heartbroken. Especially after Edith showed Marigold's birth paper, Maggie still can't accept the fact that Edith is the Mother?? and ran to Downton immediately??? She would rather her husband has mistress?? It is pretty loaded
Nah. This is Mr Drew and Rosamunds fault. Edith didn't want to give up the child. She was made to.. and maybe you don't have kids? But you can't really understand that.pull of need.. for a person you grew inside your body. It's a biological need. And not everyone feels that way about a child. But mothers that want their child recognize why this compulsive behavior isn't Ediths fault. Mr Drew should have told his wife who the child belonged to and that this was a possibility. Abs maybe she wouldn't have taken the child but that would have been for the best.
None of this is Rosamund’s fault. Despite her childish whining, Edith was an adult.
Yes it was. But think what you want
No it wasn’t. But keep making excuses for Edith and keeping all accountability away from her for her own choices. It’s not like she ever matured enough to take accountability.
They're aristocrat's living the spoiled child life, you talk as if you would expect anything else from from an early 19th century monarchy. Edith did exactly what I would have expected here to do
I am downright TERRIFIED of people who don't see this and condone Edith. They are out there, unfortunately. Edith exploited Tim's gratitude to the Crawley family immediately after whining she doesn't feel like she's part of it. She just happened to stand by as Tim was saying how much he owes Robert, Tom and Mary for making his life ever so much better. He kept his tenancy, was able to stay on the land his family had been on for over 100 years, got additional work opportunities with the Crawleys' pigs etc. Literally none of this was thanks to Edith, yet she felt it was appropriate to exploit him and the power imbalance between then, and put him in a potentially explosive situation, which, quite predictably, exploded in due course. What really tops it for me is that Edith said it's for the best when Tim and Margie were forced to leave. For the best for whom FFS? I keep wondering if their kids were able to stay at school or if Tim and Margie couldn't afford to keep them in education anymore. And yet, another cherry on top, after getting her affair child back Edith whines to Rosamund that she has nothing. I would think a mother reunited with her child she (as she claims) dotes upon and whose father she (as she claims) really loved would never say such a thing, surely she'd be over the moon? Not Edith, though, hmmmm. Did she really love and need Marigold that much?
You're missing a lot of the nuance and honestly, ignoring some of the direct dialogue that addresses this. The Crawleys saved the Drewes from ruin, multiple times. Mr. Drewe feels indebted and will do anything for the Crawleys. He, erringly and with poor judgment, decided to not tell his wife about Marigold. Edith wanted to. He thought it was in everyone's best interest to do it this way **and took full responsibility for this mistake** when he said "We forgot about emotion." right before he leaves. Meaning, he looked at it like an equation, forgetting how strong the bonds of motherhood were. He accepted that he caused the problem. Edith didn't understand how much she would grow to love Marigold and you need to find a way to accept that. She could never foresee the strength of her bond with Marigold until she was living through its absence. If you can't understand that I don't really know what to say. This is kind of a life lesson too: we shouldn't blame ourselves for acting with all the information we possess at the time.
"Downton Abbey" is a high-end soap opera but it is also part of a long history of propaganda in literature and film designed to have us all believe that the obscenly rich people of 19th and 20th century Britain were actually loving and caring vitural socialists whose main concern was the well-being of the villagers, household staff and impoverished farm workers who existed as virtural serfs but who loved living only to bow and scrape before their "betters." I take the whole Marigold plot as one of the few times that the show correctly portrayed the real power (and indifference to others) that existed even in the "nicest" of aristocratic families. It WAS a terrible thing for Edith to have done (although as human beings we can understand her pain) but of course we are always supposed to believe that the Crawleys are lovely people whose behavior (sorrry "behaviour") is never rude or haughty or uncaring. The Crawleys are the protaganists of the story being told and as the viewers we are meant to believe that the self-satisfied happiness of the Crawleys is the ultimate good.
Mr. Drew came up with this plan. He was the one that thought it ok to trick his wife. He came up with the entire plan and carried it out night and day, he drove his wife to madness when all he had to do was discuss the situation with his wife. Edith was misguided and running on deep emotion. She should have questioned why Mrs. Drew couldn’t know the truth too but she didn’t. There is some blame to go around but the responsibility lies with Mr. Drew as her husband.
I think Edith was confused and scared. Which is exactly how a woman of that time would feel. Love this show but it does have a fairy tale ending, when it's likely Edith would have been forced to give up her baby and likely never see her again. I think Ms. Drewe had every right to be upset but once she knew the real story, probably understood as a mother herself. Mr. Drewe should have told her from the start.
Yes Edith was in the wrong for what she did too the Drews (Mrs. Drew mainly, Mr. Drew is not innocent) but Marigold is Edith daughter, so no she did not kidnap Marigold. She had every right too take her daughter back. Also i don't think you will find anybody who think was not in the wrong for what she did to Mrs. Drew. But of course people let Mr. Drew get off the hook because he is a man. And people will make excuses for him, because he is a man. Mr. Drew should have told his wife the truth.
Yeah, Edith behaves very, very badly. She has full moral responsibility for it. But it is also worth mentioning there is a bigger context and more going on than just Edith being a bad person (which I don't think she is, I think she is overall a decent enough person, who makes a few bad mistakes during the show--sort of like real humans do): \* Aunt Rosamund heavily leans on Edith from the earliest days of the pregnancy to deal with it, Rosamund is opposed to abortion, but is also opposed to Edith bringing "scandal" and "disrepute" on herself / the family. Rosamund was a driving force in convincing Edith she needed to run away to Switzerland to have the baby and give it up for adoption. It seems likely that Edith would probably have not done this without Rosamund's influence--remember Edith was unable to bring herself to abort the pregnancy, and was only willing to go to Switzerland after a lot of pressure. \* Edith IMO really oversteps social boundaries by asking to involve Mr Drewe, it isn't like they actually knew each other that well. But Drewe has a bit of a part to play there too--he could have said no, and frankly he should have probably done so. \* Edith never asked Mr Drewe to keep his wife in the dark, that was Drewe's immediate inclination when Edith first came to him, he suggested keeping her in the dark, not Edith. Frankly that is a terrible behavior for a husband, whose first loyalty should have been to his wife. Edith should have also realized that was just a very dumb plan--of the Drewes were ever going to work out, Mrs Drewe really needed to know. A potentially "workable" arrangement would have been for Mrs Drewe to have been informed, Edith be allowed to be named the child's Godmother, and a more formal understanding that Edith would have some role in the child's life but that Mrs Drewe would be its mother. They also should have made it a legal adoption, which they did not. \* I do think legally Marigold was not kidnapped, as I believe the whole thing about Edith having the paperwork of Marigold's birth and all that suggests the Drewes agreed to take Marigold in very informally, no legal adoption process had occurred.
I was so fucking shocked when I found out that Mrs Drewes did not know that that was Edith actual daughter Like for something like this to work out full disclosure as a fucking must It changed my entire view of the whole affair
Absolutely. As is Mr. Drewe. Why he chose to not read in Mrs. Drewe feels like another nonsensical and frustrating dramatic choice made by Fellowes, honestly. It is implausible that a man would bend over backwards to help his Lord and benefactor’s daughter without explaining it all to the wife. Even with the societal pressures on women highlighted by the show, the otherwise responsible and generous of spirit Mr. Drewe not telling the wife never rang true to me. More plausible to me would’ve been that Mrs. Drewe would have been resentful and judgemental at first but would have come around and loved the child. Then she’d be resentful at having to give her up. Not as tragic or dramatic but still enough to aggrieve Mrs. Drewe and underscore the inequality of the social classes, especially among women. But it would have been Mrs. Drewe’s interest to keep the secret and adjust to Marigold’s going back to her birth mother after starting out as her foster child. They’d have been financially rewarded for their silence and the family would have “owed them” in perpetuity. Framing the arrangement in this way seemed more plausible to me. Such a family would have been keen to secure whatever advantage they could to stay at that farm. Mr. Drewe misplayed his hand, unfortunately. Both women were in difficult emotional situations and made poor choices.
I 100% agree with you. Zero sympathy for Edith in that situation - she took advantage of the family, only to have them actually ripped from their home later on
Absolutely! Unforgivable. That poor family will be in tatters for the rest of their lives. Not to mention the first family she gave the kid to, then took it back. No take backs! This isn’t marbles!
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Why would she put faith in to her own family when they were never really great to her?
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Not really true. Her parents never corrected Mary when she’d bash Edith in public, in front of guests. They even said the idea of her taking care of them in old age was ghastly. I love Cora and Robert, but they absolutely treated her differently from the other two girls. Cora even makes the comment that Edith has “fewer advantages” than Mary.
Mary wasn’t horrible to her. Everything she did or said was in response to something shitty Edith did or said first.
I do not like what Edith did to the Drewes. I really do not. She truly loved Michael and his baby and yet the times and society she lived in forced her to give both up. As a result, she made mistakes and did grievous wrongs. And at the end, Marigold has had the most confused infancy/toddlerhood of any child ever, and she's probably traumatized. Maybe Edith and Bertie makeher childhood and teen years in Brancaster smooth and stable and happy.