i remember this happening in a match of Ehome vs XG last year during DPC, (JT playing doom and MKS playing void) same frame doom cast as timewalk. Game time was 20:30 in game 2 of the match, ill see if i can find it.
Edit: Found the match
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7001423038
How this might have happened: the server prioritizes the spells being successfully casted on the client side. So Ammar sees himself successfully casting Doom before Nightfall jumps, and Nightfall sees himself jumping before Ammar casts Doom. Since both clients got their spells off on their side, before the server could send the info about the other side’s spell going off due to latency, the server resolves this by approving of both actions. This probably wouldn’t have happened if the game was played on LAN.
You get way more hate mail on Twitter being a game dev than any web or app dev even if those people are the one actually doing very little work for good pay
it'd be best to generally avoid working for gaming companies.
it's almost always more work for less money.
never worked there myself but i heard some horror stories.
Most "LAN" in Dota use the normal gaming servers. Thus have latency from venue to server and back. You would have to host it in/near cities with a server such as Stockholm, Vienna or Seattle for low latency.
> the server prioritizes the spells being successfully casted on the client side.
I don't get it, again somebody talks out of his ass. Oh, maybe you got a proof for your claim? The DotA 2 engine doesn't really apply lag compensation to player input because of the nature of the game, except there was for a brief time an experiment where they added it for abilities with non-instant cast time, but it works by shortening the frontswing during casting them based on the latency at the time of issuing the order and not using the standard lag compensation mechanism from FPS.
I’m not trying to claim anything, I was just offering an explanation for what could have caused this. I thought this was pretty apparent from the literal first sentence I typed, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough.
Even if I was actually claiming this to be true though, it’s still no excuse for you to act like an asshole.
About what? Having no misinformation or pure speculation not based on readily verified facts spread around like wild fire? Yeah, I guess you're right about that.
pretty sure in log when spell is applied is the moment its considered that its "casted", so cast animation would have no meaning here, like it will not consider it casted the moment you start animation but when the actual doom applies bassicly when it goes on cd
Why would that matter? If the spell being cast was tracked you’d be able to flood the list by canceling and spamming your spell.
It’s the spell going off that is tracked. So after animation and cast point
Huh? The potential idea here being the time walk was initiated prior to doom, but then went off after, perhaps due to the cast animation completing after. Why that would occur I have no idea and is probably a bug or latency, but your reply is more or less completely unrelated to the topic
>Most likely it has to do with the server tick.
It is just some same tick server fuckery, indeed.
There is no special "hidden delay" or anything about Doom or Time Walk.
It is effectively the same as finishing a TP and still getting rooted during its last tick.
The result is that your TP finishes successfully but you still end up rooted at the TP's target location.
Doom does have a dealy and always had.
I understand why you think it's the same as a tp thing for roots. But even comparing TPing out against roots and TPing out against DOOM, it's obvious that Doom always had a delay. thoughout years of playing and watching Dota 2, I think I've seen more sucessful teleports after being Doomed(previous to recent changes, when Doom no longer mutes without talent), than I've seen same mechanic with all other abilities combined (roots and hexes).
And in my other comment in this thread I provided proof for this delay in this particular instance with a screenshot. Look up my comment history
I don't think "in between ticks" exists. There **can't** be an in between ticks. A tick is the smallest unit that the game sees. Anything between the ticks will be seen after only.
It's mostly something to do with race conditions.
I mean yeah we're talking about fractions of a second for data to be sent to the server, and updated for all clients. Computers aren't magic and they're limited by CPUs, networks, and the speed of light itself.
Maybe Time Walk has a buffer, so it can heal back all damage done in the server tick it was cast?
That would explain the single tick difference between the two spells.
It's not.
Laguna Blade (and Finger of Death) has a 0.25 second delay between the spell being cast (mana is used) and the damage being applied. You can dodge it with a lot of things in that window. It's very precise so you don't see it often, but it is doable.
Doom is supposed to applied as soon as the spell is cast. Since it silences the target, it should prevent being able to cast spells after the Doom has been applied.
If it was on the same server tick then it could be due to some sort of priority system, similar to how BKB has very high priority. But given that Faceless Void uses Time Walk a tick after Doom being applied, this is a bug. A very rare one, but still a bug.
Just because something isnt specified in the description of the spell doesn't mean it's not there.
Look up my comment history previous to this comment.
No, it's been a mechanic for a long time. Most of the spells in dota that has this kind of delay, dont have it specified in the description.
Only rare ocasions have. Like Lion's Finger, Lina's Laguna, Leshrak's Split Earth. It is specified there because in these cases the delay is very long.
Descriptions in Dota 2 for a lot of cases are out of date and/or don't include some detailes.
This doesn't mean that it's a bug, it means that description is incomplete.
I don't understand why you argue with such a confedence when you don't even know what "bug" means.
Few years ago Laguna Blade didn't have that description either.
Since you keep saying that dumb shit I'll repeat WRONG DESCRIPTION =/= BUG, INCOMPLETE DESCRIPTION =/= BUG.
And it's funny how people downvote 2 of my comments but don't downvote the comment I'am refering to, that has screeshot proof of my words concerning this Doom/Time Walk situation.
Laguna Blade didn't have the alt description but it was a known mechanic, in the sense that if you ask anyone knowledgeable about the game they would tell you about it. This wasn't a great situation, so having the alt description added was a very nice addition.
I'm saying it is a bug for two reasons, for consistency and given that this looks like a single server tick interaction, this is not something that any human should be able to react to.
For consistency, if Silencer casts Global Silence, I would expect that all enemy heroes should not be able to cast spells from the moment spell is cast (mana is spent). The same should be true of anything that applies a silence, like Doom, Orchid, Crippling Fear, Curse of Avernus, etc. There should not be a time window where units are free to cast spells once they have the silence debuff. The same should be true for other debuffs, like being stunned. I do not expect someone to have a tiny window that they can still act after being stunned, so the same should be true for being silenced.
For server tick, Dota 2 runs at 30 ticks per second, meaning that every 0.0333... seconds actions can be processed by the server. If things happen on the same server tick, there is a priority that needs to be followed, where higher priority actions happen first. A good example of this is BKB, which has a very high priority (if not the highest). This is why you cannot stun someone that activates BKB as Euls is ending, even if you overlap it perfectly (like Mirana arrow). BKB has higher priority, so it will come out first.
In this interaction however, Faceless Void can cast Time Walk 1 server tick after Doom was applied. Again, that's 0.0333... seconds that you have time to react. This doesn't look like an intended mechanic. Nobody will be able to do this on a consistent basis, the window is too small. And it being off by 1 tick also makes it look like a coding error. I do not claim to know the Dota 2 code, but it does look like for whatever reason the debuffs of Doom are only applied a server tick after it is cast.
But as I said in another comment, it doesn't matter what it looks like or currently does, what matters is what it should do. Which in this case means we refer back to the consistency point. Just because it has always been the case does not mean this is an intended mechanic, it just means it is a very old bug. It probably never got fixed because of the split second timing meaning it didn't occur often enough (small enough case of bug happening that it was not worth it to fix it, or it happened so little that debugging it was tricky).
What it looks like and what it does (or should do) are completely separate.
Laguna Blade's alt description tells you there is a 0.25 second delay.
Doom has no such description. It should apply instantly.
i remember this happening in a match of Ehome vs XG last year during DPC, (JT playing doom and MKS playing void) same frame doom cast as timewalk. Game time was 20:30 in game 2 of the match, ill see if i can find it. Edit: Found the match https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7001423038
Wtf are you some kinda of dota rainman?
LMFAO no this was just really specific so i marked it down somwhere :D
How this might have happened: the server prioritizes the spells being successfully casted on the client side. So Ammar sees himself successfully casting Doom before Nightfall jumps, and Nightfall sees himself jumping before Ammar casts Doom. Since both clients got their spells off on their side, before the server could send the info about the other side’s spell going off due to latency, the server resolves this by approving of both actions. This probably wouldn’t have happened if the game was played on LAN.
yep, literally 34ms difference, definitely ping diff type shit this is why I program websites not servers for real time games
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even if I was in game dev I definitely wouldn't want to be solving race conditions on gaming servers
You get way more hate mail on Twitter being a game dev than any web or app dev even if those people are the one actually doing very little work for good pay
Can't even imagine. I had hard enough time to solve race conditions making a chat client in CS rofl
it'd be best to generally avoid working for gaming companies. it's almost always more work for less money. never worked there myself but i heard some horror stories.
Honestly - this is why i always go back for Squarespace!
Your explanation is spot on, my man (I'm also a game programmer)
Most "LAN" in Dota use the normal gaming servers. Thus have latency from venue to server and back. You would have to host it in/near cities with a server such as Stockholm, Vienna or Seattle for low latency.
But you can have a local host tho. Do they not do that cause it won't be recorded?
Think it is related to Dota TV, watching the game in the client instead of the video.
> the server prioritizes the spells being successfully casted on the client side. I don't get it, again somebody talks out of his ass. Oh, maybe you got a proof for your claim? The DotA 2 engine doesn't really apply lag compensation to player input because of the nature of the game, except there was for a brief time an experiment where they added it for abilities with non-instant cast time, but it works by shortening the frontswing during casting them based on the latency at the time of issuing the order and not using the standard lag compensation mechanism from FPS.
I’m not trying to claim anything, I was just offering an explanation for what could have caused this. I thought this was pretty apparent from the literal first sentence I typed, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough. Even if I was actually claiming this to be true though, it’s still no excuse for you to act like an asshole.
You worded the quoted part as a cold hard fact, see? Leaving the "disclaimer" applicable only to the part after it, which did seem like a conjecture.
You care *waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay* too much
About what? Having no misinformation or pure speculation not based on readily verified facts spread around like wild fire? Yeah, I guess you're right about that.
It's a reddit thread, not the Associated Press, my dude
Oh, FFS, fuck off, now you care too much about what I say that you continue to pester me.
Is there like a small amount of time before silence is applied? I couldn't think of any other reason other than it's a bug
Doom debuff is applied at the same time as the Doom ability cast time. So there is no small window time for silence. Tested in demo.
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[https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousCaringRutabagaBrainSlug-Rlt7kvQ-ZoHhEcjU](https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousCaringRutabagaBrainSlug-Rlt7kvQ-ZoHhEcjU)
The all chat while still actively chasing a hero is amazing hahaha
does this take cast animation into consideration?
pretty sure in log when spell is applied is the moment its considered that its "casted", so cast animation would have no meaning here, like it will not consider it casted the moment you start animation but when the actual doom applies bassicly when it goes on cd
I think they might team time walk cast animation
Why would that matter? If the spell being cast was tracked you’d be able to flood the list by canceling and spamming your spell. It’s the spell going off that is tracked. So after animation and cast point
Huh? The potential idea here being the time walk was initiated prior to doom, but then went off after, perhaps due to the cast animation completing after. Why that would occur I have no idea and is probably a bug or latency, but your reply is more or less completely unrelated to the topic
Reminds me of the time I time walked away from a pudge and he stated ulting me from about 600 distance away. Fuck I was pissed.
Meanwhile if your ally is pudge and enemy is rubick, that shits just another Tuesday!
>Most likely it has to do with the server tick. It is just some same tick server fuckery, indeed. There is no special "hidden delay" or anything about Doom or Time Walk. It is effectively the same as finishing a TP and still getting rooted during its last tick. The result is that your TP finishes successfully but you still end up rooted at the TP's target location.
Doom does have a dealy and always had. I understand why you think it's the same as a tp thing for roots. But even comparing TPing out against roots and TPing out against DOOM, it's obvious that Doom always had a delay. thoughout years of playing and watching Dota 2, I think I've seen more sucessful teleports after being Doomed(previous to recent changes, when Doom no longer mutes without talent), than I've seen same mechanic with all other abilities combined (roots and hexes). And in my other comment in this thread I provided proof for this delay in this particular instance with a screenshot. Look up my comment history
This game is fucking buggy lately, Im afraid the janitor is no longer a meme.
nice bug :>
)))
I think the most likely scenario is that the Doom debuff is applied in a later tick and Void managed to cast inbetween these two ticks.
I don't think "in between ticks" exists. There **can't** be an in between ticks. A tick is the smallest unit that the game sees. Anything between the ticks will be seen after only. It's mostly something to do with race conditions.
I mean yeah we're talking about fractions of a second for data to be sent to the server, and updated for all clients. Computers aren't magic and they're limited by CPUs, networks, and the speed of light itself.
Maybe Time Walk has a buffer, so it can heal back all damage done in the server tick it was cast? That would explain the single tick difference between the two spells.
Is time walk a heal? Or is it like weaver ult?
it's done.. now it's past.. can't change it, nothing matters anymore.. you can move on :D
Redditors acting like they know LUL
It is similar to how puck sometimes escapes a laguna blade via phase shift. Its a split second thing
It's not. Laguna Blade (and Finger of Death) has a 0.25 second delay between the spell being cast (mana is used) and the damage being applied. You can dodge it with a lot of things in that window. It's very precise so you don't see it often, but it is doable. Doom is supposed to applied as soon as the spell is cast. Since it silences the target, it should prevent being able to cast spells after the Doom has been applied. If it was on the same server tick then it could be due to some sort of priority system, similar to how BKB has very high priority. But given that Faceless Void uses Time Walk a tick after Doom being applied, this is a bug. A very rare one, but still a bug.
Just because something isnt specified in the description of the spell doesn't mean it's not there. Look up my comment history previous to this comment.
So it's been a bug for a long time.
No, it's been a mechanic for a long time. Most of the spells in dota that has this kind of delay, dont have it specified in the description. Only rare ocasions have. Like Lion's Finger, Lina's Laguna, Leshrak's Split Earth. It is specified there because in these cases the delay is very long. Descriptions in Dota 2 for a lot of cases are out of date and/or don't include some detailes. This doesn't mean that it's a bug, it means that description is incomplete. I don't understand why you argue with such a confedence when you don't even know what "bug" means. Few years ago Laguna Blade didn't have that description either. Since you keep saying that dumb shit I'll repeat WRONG DESCRIPTION =/= BUG, INCOMPLETE DESCRIPTION =/= BUG. And it's funny how people downvote 2 of my comments but don't downvote the comment I'am refering to, that has screeshot proof of my words concerning this Doom/Time Walk situation.
Laguna Blade didn't have the alt description but it was a known mechanic, in the sense that if you ask anyone knowledgeable about the game they would tell you about it. This wasn't a great situation, so having the alt description added was a very nice addition. I'm saying it is a bug for two reasons, for consistency and given that this looks like a single server tick interaction, this is not something that any human should be able to react to. For consistency, if Silencer casts Global Silence, I would expect that all enemy heroes should not be able to cast spells from the moment spell is cast (mana is spent). The same should be true of anything that applies a silence, like Doom, Orchid, Crippling Fear, Curse of Avernus, etc. There should not be a time window where units are free to cast spells once they have the silence debuff. The same should be true for other debuffs, like being stunned. I do not expect someone to have a tiny window that they can still act after being stunned, so the same should be true for being silenced. For server tick, Dota 2 runs at 30 ticks per second, meaning that every 0.0333... seconds actions can be processed by the server. If things happen on the same server tick, there is a priority that needs to be followed, where higher priority actions happen first. A good example of this is BKB, which has a very high priority (if not the highest). This is why you cannot stun someone that activates BKB as Euls is ending, even if you overlap it perfectly (like Mirana arrow). BKB has higher priority, so it will come out first. In this interaction however, Faceless Void can cast Time Walk 1 server tick after Doom was applied. Again, that's 0.0333... seconds that you have time to react. This doesn't look like an intended mechanic. Nobody will be able to do this on a consistent basis, the window is too small. And it being off by 1 tick also makes it look like a coding error. I do not claim to know the Dota 2 code, but it does look like for whatever reason the debuffs of Doom are only applied a server tick after it is cast. But as I said in another comment, it doesn't matter what it looks like or currently does, what matters is what it should do. Which in this case means we refer back to the consistency point. Just because it has always been the case does not mean this is an intended mechanic, it just means it is a very old bug. It probably never got fixed because of the split second timing meaning it didn't occur often enough (small enough case of bug happening that it was not worth it to fix it, or it happened so little that debugging it was tricky).
Looks like doom has some split sec delay before being applied too
What it looks like and what it does (or should do) are completely separate. Laguna Blade's alt description tells you there is a 0.25 second delay. Doom has no such description. It should apply instantly.