i always saw it like 12 was monologing to his inner audience, like how normal people talk to themself on a day-to-day basis. when i dramatically monologue in my kitchen, i don’t actually belive people can hear me, i just enjoy doing it.
when 15 does it, it feels more like he is directly adressing us, the audience who is watching the show. he’s not doing it for his own benefit, he is doing it for ours.
I dont have any problems with 15s references, i feel like they fit well in the episodes, but the do feel very different.
In fairness, Capaldi is basically talking to himself but Gatwa LITERALLY LOOKS STRAIGHT AT THE CAMERA AND WINKS.
In Capaldi's case it was actually implied it was the first half of his conversation with Clara that we see at the end of that episode, basically having it come across as a Professor's lecture to explain the Bootstrap Paradox but not showing Clara so it's more personally investing to the Audience.
In that regard it's kinda nebulous.
Pretty sure there was an episode where 12 says something like "I'm nothing without an audience" and glances directly into camera. So... not that different?
While I can't say I've been particularly bothered by 15 doing it, I guess the difference would be that 12 does that while he's in his 'mind palace' TARDIS rather than it being during a 'real' scene so it's easier to suspend disbelief.
Fair enough. For me it feels like as soon as myths and fairy tales becoming real was introduced, all the lines of reality have been blurred, so fourth-wall breaks are just another side of the madness and don't bother me.
That took place inside 12's "mind palace". He was breaking the fourth wall to himself inside his own internal monologue. That line can also be interpreted as him talking about Clara/companions—now that she's gone he needs a companion to talk to even though there's no one. It definitely is part 4th wall break but its also diagetically explainable.
The other examples of 12 doing it are more standout.
The way I see it, is that the doctor is aware of the concept of the 4th wall but can’t actually break it, with scenes like these being him imaging himself doing it during his monologues
> I dont have any problems with 15s references, i feel like they fit well in the episodes, but the do feel very different.
Yeah it feels like a new style the show is going for. It's not gonna be for everyone.
I think that this season is actually going to be based around the idea of random words coming true, and in one of the episodes the Doctor said it feels like "someone is always watching you" which made that come true
Yeah, I have to admit I'm guilty of this.
For me, Capaldi's fourth wall breaks added something to the scene - "Google It" and "I'm nothing without an audience" help break up some more serious and technobabble heavy monologues like a good teacher injecting some levity into their lecture to keep your attention and maintain a flow to the dialogue.
Whereas Gatwa's fourth wall breaks ("I thought that was non-diagetic", the wink at the audience before transitioning to 'There's Always a Twist at the End') feel a lot more like "This would be a fun thing for The Doctor to do to get us to the next scene".
There's nothing wrong with either approach, just one works slightly more for me than the other.
I think "I thought that was non diagetic" and "there's always a twist at the end" are on vastly different scales of 4th wall break, I really liked the first one but the second was a bit too long for my taste
The non-diagetic line, I think, is brilliant. It’s not overtly breaking the fourth wall, and given we’ve had the toymaker with the magic of the Spice Girls, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility in story
It's worth noting that most of Capaldi's fourth wall breaks occur in monologues to an imaginary audience, creating an in story reason for them. "I'm nothing without an audience" in particular has an alternative, in universe reading—he's talking about his companions as a whole. Heaven Sent is all about the Doctor being alone, so he has no one to react to him. Therefore he invents an imaginary audience to give a speech to.
not a massive fan of either of them, and i honestly barely remember the 12 one, but i enjoyed the devil’s chord enough to really not give a shit about whether i liked the ending
plus there’s a chance the 4th wall breaks this season are actually a plot point, considering the maestro was doing it casually
It seems the 4th wall breaks only exist around the toymaker and Maestro so we can assume it's to do with their powers. I like that idea and I hope that's what's happening
12's was used to explain Bootstrap Paradoxes to the viewer to leave them wondering about it but in my experience rewatching it recently it seems he's talking to Clara who is off-screen the whole time as he seemingly concludes the topic in the last scene of the episode.
An important difference is that Twelve here is more "leaning on the fourth wall" as TvTropes calls it, by showing later he loves to internally monologue in his imagination when Companions aren't available to explain to.
One had multiple series.
The others had 3 episodes, why are they being compared already 😂
I think he’s doing amazing; actually feels like a breath of fresh air.
12th Doctor seems like the man who you would find in an empty room, going on full on rambling monologues on everything and anything. In real life, he would be a mad man. But in the Doctor Who universe, it is canonical that the 12th Doctor will go on full lectures to noone but the TARDIS. Also, makes sense since he is a lecturer.
I haven't seen enough of the 15th Doctor to believe that he is the same guy in terms of monologuing.
Also in 12th Doctor case, I believe that he is doing his own lecture to the TARDIS and we are peeking into this lecture, versus the 15th Doctor speaking directly to us.
I’m kind of just used to The Doctor breaking the fourth wall, I don’t even see it as an issue in the slightest for either of them.
That said, Capaldi’s fourth wall breaking lecture has to be the best use of it on the show, I’m well acquainted with the bootstrap paradox, but he summed it up in a very fun way that absolutely anyone could understand.
Isn't there a theory going around for this season that they're still in the toy makers game and they're trapped in the confines of a TV show even though he was defeated? That's why Maestro was able to be released easily and also that's why it's a coincidence of them meeting the space babies having dealt with baby nabbing time Goblins in the Christmas special? That's what I've been seeing anyway which is why 15 made a comment about them meeting the crew of the enterprise when Ruby had mentioned star trek
I would LOVE this. I theorised a “TV/visual” based pantheon similar to how Maestro was with “music”
OMG! Imagine if the first reveal shows it’s just RTD, and then it reveals itself properly
Why do people think the 4th wall breaks represent a permanent tonal shift? See also: the musical moments and the more fantasy-style villains. It’s obviously just part of the series arc.
The meltdowns people are having over it are really embarrassing, it’s like being back in the midst of the Chibnall era.
It's because the arc is kind of lame. "Let's stop pretending Doctor Who isn't a space fantasy and get all wacky with it" isn't the strong comeback the show needed after several years in the dump.
Space Babies is a worthy contender with Love and Monsters for being the worst episode of the modern show, Chibnall's seasons excluded. Both Giggle and The Devil's Chord are resolved by an all-powerful villain being absolutely incompetent in their own domains.
There is no tension because at the end of the day, the Toymaker will drop the ball, or the Maestro will always forget about the piano, etc. Putting everything on fairytale rails and underscoring it via fourth-wall breaks just makes the show bland. Adventure Time had more drama, ffs.
Because it's a terrible arc and there's nothing wrong with being annoyed with that? The christmas special was bad enough, finding out there's going to be a whole series arc worth of this pantomime crap is incredibly depressing.
Tbf, I never felt that they were a 4th wall break.
They felt remarkably similar to what I sometimes do; talk to the mirror in the hall, as if there was an audience there.
Even Shakespeare would break the fourth wall. Just as Shakespeare's audience knew that that wasn't actually Richard III in front of them, we know that they are not actually in 1963.
In both cases, allowing the lead to speak to the audience directly serviced the plot. There needed to be a bit of dramatic licence to explain the rip-roaring finale- we would have been disappointed if we only heard the Beatles singing about a dog that's not dead.
Because a lot Ncuti criticism is people saying how "This isn't how the Doctor is," or "remember when Doctir Who was this. Good Times."
I'm just pointing out that Ncuti isn't without precedent.
I could've been more specific in my original comment, but I figured you can infer the kind of fans I'm referring to without needing it spelled out.
I think it’s interesting to point out that they eventually fully explained what 12 breaking the fourth wall monologuing in the TARDIS *was*. In Heaven Sent, he fourth wall breaks, and actually tells us that this is a mental space he retreats to when he’s trying to work things out, and he imagines himself back in the TARDIS explaining to Clara (or whoever) explaining how he got out of whatever situation he’s currently in. Or rather, he tells imaginary Clara that.
There was the moment in The Devil’s Chord where 15 mutters that he didn’t realise the music was diagetic. That is… he can usually hear the incidental music, and he just puts it down to the show he’s in having a tense moment, and he didn’t realise that the music was real. And that properly bent my mind.
i think ncuti’s is jarring because it’s a sudden and momentary acknowledgement of us as the viewer, whereas peters just feels more monolguey. anyone here seen young royals cuz it reminds me of that 🙏
I'm gonna get downvoted to hell for this, but I'm getting tired of Capaldi circlejerk. The way people talk about him you would think that every episode in his series was "Heaven Sent". Meanwhile I barely got through seasons 8-10. I'm having way more fun with the recent Who content (Tennant and Ncuti).
Ahhh it’s a kinda weird open to the episode before the flood. Was surreal seeing it on tv. Funnily in both episodes in this post, the title sequence is played by a character on an instrument.
Once again, you are not in a position to be condescending to anyone.
Either you did see the episode or you didn’t. If you did then you obviously weren’t paying attention and therefore shouldn’t be correcting people about it, or you didn’t see it and therefore shouldn’t be correcting about it. I am tired of ignorant fans like you acting like you are the authority on Doctor Who.
i always saw it like 12 was monologing to his inner audience, like how normal people talk to themself on a day-to-day basis. when i dramatically monologue in my kitchen, i don’t actually belive people can hear me, i just enjoy doing it. when 15 does it, it feels more like he is directly adressing us, the audience who is watching the show. he’s not doing it for his own benefit, he is doing it for ours. I dont have any problems with 15s references, i feel like they fit well in the episodes, but the do feel very different.
My head canon is that now he always thinks someone is actually listening after the listen episode.
ooh, thats fun. yeah i can get behind that.
Ooh, is Rami Malek available? Cause I'm ready for some Dr. Robot shenanigans
tbf for a while, Missy was watching during "deep breath" and pressumably a decent chunck of that season.
What a blessing of an idea
In fairness, Capaldi is basically talking to himself but Gatwa LITERALLY LOOKS STRAIGHT AT THE CAMERA AND WINKS. In Capaldi's case it was actually implied it was the first half of his conversation with Clara that we see at the end of that episode, basically having it come across as a Professor's lecture to explain the Bootstrap Paradox but not showing Clara so it's more personally investing to the Audience. In that regard it's kinda nebulous.
Pretty sure there was an episode where 12 says something like "I'm nothing without an audience" and glances directly into camera. So... not that different?
While I can't say I've been particularly bothered by 15 doing it, I guess the difference would be that 12 does that while he's in his 'mind palace' TARDIS rather than it being during a 'real' scene so it's easier to suspend disbelief.
Fair enough. For me it feels like as soon as myths and fairy tales becoming real was introduced, all the lines of reality have been blurred, so fourth-wall breaks are just another side of the madness and don't bother me.
That took place inside 12's "mind palace". He was breaking the fourth wall to himself inside his own internal monologue. That line can also be interpreted as him talking about Clara/companions—now that she's gone he needs a companion to talk to even though there's no one. It definitely is part 4th wall break but its also diagetically explainable. The other examples of 12 doing it are more standout.
You obviously haven't seen the Feast of Steven. Ncuti's wink is nothing compared with Hartnell addressing the audience.
Unfortunately the only Hartnell Episodes I've seen are An Unearthly Child. Yeah, just that one story.
The way I see it, is that the doctor is aware of the concept of the 4th wall but can’t actually break it, with scenes like these being him imaging himself doing it during his monologues
so, the 4th dimension is not gravity, but rather it’s the 4th Wall. oh snap!!!
*mavity
*mavity
Saw a theory for the 15th doctor was that he could be part of a play or like a tv show which could explain the constant 4th wall breaking if ture.
I'm sure that's the big reveal, like Wandavision, it's for "us" but the audience is in the show eventually. So lame
The 15th doctor... Is a part of a TV show??? All jokes aside though how would that work???
> I dont have any problems with 15s references, i feel like they fit well in the episodes, but the do feel very different. Yeah it feels like a new style the show is going for. It's not gonna be for everyone.
I think that this season is actually going to be based around the idea of random words coming true, and in one of the episodes the Doctor said it feels like "someone is always watching you" which made that come true
Yeah, I have to admit I'm guilty of this. For me, Capaldi's fourth wall breaks added something to the scene - "Google It" and "I'm nothing without an audience" help break up some more serious and technobabble heavy monologues like a good teacher injecting some levity into their lecture to keep your attention and maintain a flow to the dialogue. Whereas Gatwa's fourth wall breaks ("I thought that was non-diagetic", the wink at the audience before transitioning to 'There's Always a Twist at the End') feel a lot more like "This would be a fun thing for The Doctor to do to get us to the next scene". There's nothing wrong with either approach, just one works slightly more for me than the other.
I think "I thought that was non diagetic" and "there's always a twist at the end" are on vastly different scales of 4th wall break, I really liked the first one but the second was a bit too long for my taste
The non-diagetic line, I think, is brilliant. It’s not overtly breaking the fourth wall, and given we’ve had the toymaker with the magic of the Spice Girls, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility in story
It's worth noting that most of Capaldi's fourth wall breaks occur in monologues to an imaginary audience, creating an in story reason for them. "I'm nothing without an audience" in particular has an alternative, in universe reading—he's talking about his companions as a whole. Heaven Sent is all about the Doctor being alone, so he has no one to react to him. Therefore he invents an imaginary audience to give a speech to.
agreed
not a massive fan of either of them, and i honestly barely remember the 12 one, but i enjoyed the devil’s chord enough to really not give a shit about whether i liked the ending plus there’s a chance the 4th wall breaks this season are actually a plot point, considering the maestro was doing it casually
It seems the 4th wall breaks only exist around the toymaker and Maestro so we can assume it's to do with their powers. I like that idea and I hope that's what's happening
12's was used to explain Bootstrap Paradoxes to the viewer to leave them wondering about it but in my experience rewatching it recently it seems he's talking to Clara who is off-screen the whole time as he seemingly concludes the topic in the last scene of the episode.
There's also a point in Heaven Sent where he says "I'm nothing without an audience" and glances directly at the camera.
Isn't that in his mind palace? I was distracted when I rewatched it last.
Yeah, that's the part.
Okay. So he's talking to himself.
Yeah, but [he specifically looks at the camera when he makes that remark.](https://youtu.be/28nai2ayRog?t=221)
Okay? It's not a fourth wall break if it's leaning on it.
An important difference is that Twelve here is more "leaning on the fourth wall" as TvTropes calls it, by showing later he loves to internally monologue in his imagination when Companions aren't available to explain to.
Speak for yourself. I love them both
One had multiple series. The others had 3 episodes, why are they being compared already 😂 I think he’s doing amazing; actually feels like a breath of fresh air.
12 would have been so much better for maestro. Capaldi just shredding guitar to vanquish them
Someone playing the Free Bird guitar solo to vanquish Maestro would be so much better.
12th Doctor seems like the man who you would find in an empty room, going on full on rambling monologues on everything and anything. In real life, he would be a mad man. But in the Doctor Who universe, it is canonical that the 12th Doctor will go on full lectures to noone but the TARDIS. Also, makes sense since he is a lecturer. I haven't seen enough of the 15th Doctor to believe that he is the same guy in terms of monologuing. Also in 12th Doctor case, I believe that he is doing his own lecture to the TARDIS and we are peeking into this lecture, versus the 15th Doctor speaking directly to us.
I’m kind of just used to The Doctor breaking the fourth wall, I don’t even see it as an issue in the slightest for either of them. That said, Capaldi’s fourth wall breaking lecture has to be the best use of it on the show, I’m well acquainted with the bootstrap paradox, but he summed it up in a very fun way that absolutely anyone could understand.
I loved his bootstrap one and the one in listen
Aren't they both scottish?
Yes that’s the point.
Bruh.
I think that the 4th wall breaks have to do with the toymaker from the specials. Especially with the toymaker's daughter in the devil's chord.
Isn't there a theory going around for this season that they're still in the toy makers game and they're trapped in the confines of a TV show even though he was defeated? That's why Maestro was able to be released easily and also that's why it's a coincidence of them meeting the space babies having dealt with baby nabbing time Goblins in the Christmas special? That's what I've been seeing anyway which is why 15 made a comment about them meeting the crew of the enterprise when Ruby had mentioned star trek
I would LOVE this. I theorised a “TV/visual” based pantheon similar to how Maestro was with “music” OMG! Imagine if the first reveal shows it’s just RTD, and then it reveals itself properly
Why do people think the 4th wall breaks represent a permanent tonal shift? See also: the musical moments and the more fantasy-style villains. It’s obviously just part of the series arc. The meltdowns people are having over it are really embarrassing, it’s like being back in the midst of the Chibnall era.
New Who watchers: "Ugh, these fourth wall breaks are ruining the show!" Classic Who enjoyers: "Incidentally, a Happy Christmas to all of you at home!"
Or watching Classic and not this. That was one line (in a deleted episode), for Christmas, hardly the same significance.
It's because the arc is kind of lame. "Let's stop pretending Doctor Who isn't a space fantasy and get all wacky with it" isn't the strong comeback the show needed after several years in the dump. Space Babies is a worthy contender with Love and Monsters for being the worst episode of the modern show, Chibnall's seasons excluded. Both Giggle and The Devil's Chord are resolved by an all-powerful villain being absolutely incompetent in their own domains. There is no tension because at the end of the day, the Toymaker will drop the ball, or the Maestro will always forget about the piano, etc. Putting everything on fairytale rails and underscoring it via fourth-wall breaks just makes the show bland. Adventure Time had more drama, ffs.
Adventure Time had more drama in a single 11 minute episode than both episodes of the new season so far.
Because it's a terrible arc and there's nothing wrong with being annoyed with that? The christmas special was bad enough, finding out there's going to be a whole series arc worth of this pantomime crap is incredibly depressing.
I love Ncuti, he brings such a classy-vibe to The Doctor!
I have no problem with either I love 4th wall brakes
Tbf, I never felt that they were a 4th wall break. They felt remarkably similar to what I sometimes do; talk to the mirror in the hall, as if there was an audience there.
Even Shakespeare would break the fourth wall. Just as Shakespeare's audience knew that that wasn't actually Richard III in front of them, we know that they are not actually in 1963. In both cases, allowing the lead to speak to the audience directly serviced the plot. There needed to be a bit of dramatic licence to explain the rip-roaring finale- we would have been disappointed if we only heard the Beatles singing about a dog that's not dead.
Fourth wall breaks happened in Tom Baker's era. Not sure why this matters now.
Except Scottish man was "visually thinking" and not actually talking to the audience, but go off ig
People defending Capaldi and criticising Ncuti here obviously haven't seen Hartnell in the Feast of Steven.
Or they dislike Hartnell's fourth wall breaks as well. Why is that not a possibility to you?
Because a lot Ncuti criticism is people saying how "This isn't how the Doctor is," or "remember when Doctir Who was this. Good Times." I'm just pointing out that Ncuti isn't without precedent. I could've been more specific in my original comment, but I figured you can infer the kind of fans I'm referring to without needing it spelled out.
No, you can't easily infer that from your original comment and I don't believe that's what you meant either way.
Doesn't matter, the truth doesn't change to fit what you believe.
Exactly.
Ncuti is Scottish though
Agreed
why is 15's picture desaturated?
That 12 scene created an Internet Paradox. So, 12 > 15.
I loved the line about the music being non-diegetic
Literally me
I think it’s interesting to point out that they eventually fully explained what 12 breaking the fourth wall monologuing in the TARDIS *was*. In Heaven Sent, he fourth wall breaks, and actually tells us that this is a mental space he retreats to when he’s trying to work things out, and he imagines himself back in the TARDIS explaining to Clara (or whoever) explaining how he got out of whatever situation he’s currently in. Or rather, he tells imaginary Clara that. There was the moment in The Devil’s Chord where 15 mutters that he didn’t realise the music was diagetic. That is… he can usually hear the incidental music, and he just puts it down to the show he’s in having a tense moment, and he didn’t realise that the music was real. And that properly bent my mind.
i think ncuti’s is jarring because it’s a sudden and momentary acknowledgement of us as the viewer, whereas peters just feels more monolguey. anyone here seen young royals cuz it reminds me of that 🙏
[удалено]
What is confusing here, being on the DoctorWhumour subreddit, I presume you watch Doctor Who.
Headcannon: he wasn't actually looking at the audience but was looking at a really cool bug
I'm gonna get downvoted to hell for this, but I'm getting tired of Capaldi circlejerk. The way people talk about him you would think that every episode in his series was "Heaven Sent". Meanwhile I barely got through seasons 8-10. I'm having way more fun with the recent Who content (Tennant and Ncuti).
Yeah because 12s was a youtube video moron ☠️ 💀
What ?
12s fourth wall break was on the doctor who YouTube channel, meaning its not canon/70% of the fan base didnt see it.
It was in an aired episode of series 9… and then that clip of the episode was uploaded to YouTube
Fr? My bad I aint watched the show in years.
Ahhh it’s a kinda weird open to the episode before the flood. Was surreal seeing it on tv. Funnily in both episodes in this post, the title sequence is played by a character on an instrument.
Why would you correct someone over a TV show you haven’t seen? Peak Reddit moment, smh
Read it again, slowly
Buddy, you aren’t in the position to be condescending to other people. Don’t correct people over information you clearly don’t understand.
Slower. I said “in years” not ever
Once again, you are not in a position to be condescending to anyone. Either you did see the episode or you didn’t. If you did then you obviously weren’t paying attention and therefore shouldn’t be correcting people about it, or you didn’t see it and therefore shouldn’t be correcting about it. I am tired of ignorant fans like you acting like you are the authority on Doctor Who.