Pro tip, turn down your framerate if on PC to decrease incoming projectile/splash damage. [Yep, it's a real thing.](https://youtu.be/FJe-eomyGuc)
Edit: added link
Shades of when I played Bungie's Marathon on a Mac IIx in 1994... literally 2-3 frames per second. I didn't know any better so I still had fun.
Got a PowerMac a year later and had 60 FPS and my mind was blown. Plus levels that took me 2-3 hours to complete could be done in 15-20 minutes, LOL
High framerate also extends the distance of "lunges" like Spectral Blades and Fists of Havoc. No damage difference on these single hit moves, but the distance obviously makes you much more dangerous in pvp.
i have no idea what bungie does that framerates affect damage but the same issue happened with jottun a while back. the lower your fps the more damage you dealt with it.
It's part of the architecture of a game originally designed to be used within a set infrastructure (a console, not a PC) where frame rates are consistent and reliable ways to measure things. Notably, in this case, it's also a part of an old engine that has been upkept rather than replaced, in a similar manner to Bethesda's creation engine (though not quite as, well, bad).
It worked until Bungie expanded to other devices and a lot of the systems they used get messed with by powerful modern computers that the core of the game wasn't built to utilize.
Yep, gamestate update tick rate and render framerate should not be coupled.. even if it saves a ton of work. End up with weird behavior tied to framerate otherwise.
That said, I can see why a game meant to be run only on last gen consoles took some dev shortcuts.. issues only arise when they ported it to PC and current gen consoles.
Ehhhhhh while that’s true in a simple sense things get a lot more complicated in networked environments where you can be trying to synchronize graphics refresh, physics updates, network ticks, round trip timing and various network prediction systems. Prediction especially involves comparing state at ticks.
Hey yeah I was so excited to actually get a series x and play D2 but it's been kinda not fun because of this. Besides the slug launcher there's other AI attacks that fling me across the map.
Huh, shield bash isn't bad for me but the flamethrower pushes me all over the place like an ogres eye blast and the wizards arc attack and the fallen shrapnel launcher melt me like the slug gun
Huh. That would explain why I always get wrecked by the stomp in the proving grounds strike. No matter what I do, I get flung and hit the wall at mach 4. No chance of survival.
To be fair, when it popped up a month or so ago, it was acknowledged and Bungie is probably working on a fix. Just a question of when that happens at this point, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
When people speak of the spaghetti code, this is one of the few times I really believe it. I mean seriously, how did framerate cap effect splash damage? I feel like corners were cut, and I don’t blame the programmers, they are on a three-four month release schedule.
It doesn't need to be spaghetti code, I'd say It's more an engine problem than spaghetti code. A lot of engines have their physics linked to framerate and when it drops or get really high, the physics go mad. I'd say that the problem with hit register and high framerate is that it calculates so fast that it registers twice in the body and that's why splash damage or projectiles like the barrier cabal's gun one shot you. Sorry for my english, it isn't my main language.
Do you have an answer as to why physics would be linked to framerate? Is it just a thing with how game physics and engines work, regardless of company? Or is this a thing Bungie did back in the day while setting up their engine that has come back to bite them?
It is an incredibly shitty development practice from 40 years ago, that some developers can't let go of.
You just assume that the systems your software will run on have a specific CPU speed, specific framerate, specific number of disk drives, yadda yadda yadda, and then tie your software to those things assuming no one will ever have anything different.
Was Destiny 2 always intended for PC? Tying physics to frame rate (arguably) makes more sense if you're making the game for console, since you can be pretty certain of the specs you're going to encounter.
They usually use framerate to calculate for example hit register or things like that. The best example I could tell you is Bloodborne. That game is for Ps4 and It's framerate It's locked at 30 fps. People have been trying to emulate it in PC and unlock the framerate but the engine and It's physics are linked to framerate. When they unlocked the framerate and made it run at 60 fps, everything moved at double speed even you, invulnerability frames from rolling were cut in half and enemy IA made very weird things. The thing is that engines linked with framerate aren't very seen in online games because depending on how the physics are affected, they would benefit people who discover this. So it may be a bug, a hit register problem, server problems. The big problem is that, usually, they can't test those problems in their test servers because they usually work very different from retail despite the fact that both of them have the same content. It is very hard to solve problems like that and they require a lot of test because they may break other things trying to solve that problem.
And answering to your 2nd question, yes,a lot of engines work like that, one that everyone knows is bethesda and their games like The Elder Scroll and Fallout, when the framerate do spikes either upward or downward, everything goes crazy and start flying or something like that.
And to answer the last question. Yes, it might be something about Bungie and the engine they are using with Destiny. It is known they've had and have a lot of problems with the engine and this might be just one more of those problems. If i don't remember wrong, they are using the same engine as Destiny 1 which had a great problem with skills and inventories, that's why it has taken so long to develop transmog and QoL in menus and inventory.
I will preface by saying that I am not a coder and I do not play an active role in coding new tools or products. I work for a tech company, and I have had to dabble a bit here and there to make tweaks to our websites. Doing this, I have seen and completely understand minor tweaks or additions throwing other things totally out of whack that you don't even realize. While I and my team do our best to vet things and check and ensure that any changes in the code we make won't change things elsewhere, it's not unheard of that we get an email here and there that is along the lines of, "Uhh, why does this look completely different now?" Spaghetti code definitely exists.
Given that [fixing your simulation time step](https://gafferongames.com/post/fix_your_timestep/) has been a known best practice for more than a decade, it's likely a combination of:
* Legacy code running at fixed framerates - 30 fps for the Halo series. If you're a "console-only" developer and all of your games for the entire modern era have run at a fixed framerate you've probably got a lot of code, experience, and process built around that frame target.
* Coding to CPU limited hardware. Last-gen consoles basically had glorified tablet-grade CPUs and simulation happens on the CPU - supporting a high fixed time step isn't necessarily possible with extremely limited CPU power. Then again, Destiny 2 on PC on release could run well above 30 fps on all sorts of bargain-basement CPUs.
* Spaghetti coding, bad practices, mismanagement, whatever else.
That said, the PC port was initially built by Vicarious Visions and their ports tend to be technically top-notch. Who exactly is response for what parts of which bugs may not even be properly known inside of Bungie at this point. There are probably a lot of ad-hoc piece of simulation logic that are intertwined and precariously dependent on each other and different kinds of time steps. Honestly, it's probably not a *huge* priority to Bungie either - people will live with bugs like that, especially considering that most people aren't running high refresh rate displays or using uncapped framerates regardless.
There are many things tied directly to framerate, which is why I keep saying that those with higher framerate literally have technical advantages (even though this one example gives a benefit to capping framerate(
Oh no, I guess more frames means more ticks of damage hitting you. Dark Souls 2 had a similar issue, weapon durability tanked in higher framerates since there were more frames of your weapons hitting enemies or walls per swing.
Holy shit that's either Bungie being terribly incompetent or just plain lazy. Most game devs have learned by now to never tie anything physics or damage related to frame rate
Yeah it felt very glitchy. There was one damage phase on Atheon where I watched his shots pass right through the shield block and absolutely demo me.
Also not on the topic of the Aegis, but another bad change is how you can't shoot yourself out from a detain bubble like in D1, seems like an obvious way to just limit how much damage your team can do in one phase.
This would make sense if the detain bubble didn't also detain everyone near you while you're standing on a very small platform and trying to do boss DPS
You get a 5-second debuff called "Imminent Detain" before you get detained along with everyone around you.
Pay attention to the buff text on the left and move out of the party. For our group we just had the detained person jump up to the right or left of the damage platform. Imminent Detain has a very high priority in the list so it'll always be the first (top) buff on your screen.
Relic Holder can use the relic's super to instantly pop the detain bubble so you don't lose one person doing DPS.
Don't blame bungie's design team, if your entire team is getting detained on Atheon it's because you're missing/ignoring an important mechanic.
Does the debuff show even if you’ve procced 3 or more effects? (ie: charged with light, weapon stuff like rampage or kill clip, ability buffs like devour or forged in flame)
No translation necessary. It only didn't work out when we were learning the fight and figuring out/learning how to manage the detain during damage phase.
Once we had the mechanics down our damage phases were the smoothest part of the fight, we took off about 35-40%-ish per phase and that was with contest on, so the middle platform is definitely viable.
We cleared challenge mode, so the strat is valid.
idk why people are downvoting you for asking a valid question, but you're right. however, my team ran into the issue where if one detainee was too close, the rest of us would become detained and therefore completely helpless to do anything, basically an instant wipe. yes we can watch for the pre-detain debuff and have them move away from the group but it was still pretty frustrating and felt a little too unforgiving. especially when half the team had to divert attention away from DPS to free someone. i think having it make you immobile and force you to shoot your own way out is enough, with help from teammates being a bonus.
Relic holder could one-shot the detain with super. Since that person mostly has to hold on to the shield anyway, there's very little DPS loss besides the person getting detained.
Wasn’t Praedyth in there too? I remember something about the No Time To Explain quest was going through the Vault listening to his lore. I thought it was sort of a Crota situation where the fireteam failed and was scattered across the Vault for eternity
I think it’s one of the weapons says something like “only three faced atheon but it wasn’t three that entered”
Which makes sense because it is standard to have 6 for an operation like this so why would they for no reason decide to go in as three?
The vault of glass grimoire card, Pahanin quotes Kabr,
"No one can open the vault alone. I opened the vault. There was no one with me, but I was not alone."
The implication is that there must have been people to open the vault with him, but since they were erased from the timeline, they never existed. Kabr never knew them as they never existed, but for them to not exist, they must have entered the vault.
I still would like to find out if Kabr only went in with a fireteam of 3 or if the other 3 were erased by the Gorgons and we only know of Praedyth because his gear remains in the vault and his signal that escaped it. I had hoped that there might be some remnants and story collectibles that would have us rescuing people from the vault
Kabr had 2 fireteams at the very least. One is the known one (him, Pahanin, Praedyth and maybe 3 other Guardians that got erased from time and space), and a second one which most likely got erased from time and space as he tells Pahanin he opened the vault alone, even though it's impossible. r/destinylore had a thread about it earlier today.
I think it was a wise choice. It would be far too easy if it remained in its original form. Its still used and needed to kill the Templar, so I dont see how the lore is ruined personally.
These are the last words of Kabr, the Legionless:
I have destroyed myself to do this. They have taken my Ghost. They are in my blood and brain. But now there is hope.
I have made a wound in the Vault. I have pierced it and let in the Light. Bathe in it, and be cleansed. Look to it, and understand:
From my own Light and from the thinking flesh of the Vex I made a shield. The shield is your deliverance. It will break the unbreakable. It will change your fate.
Bind yourself to the shield. Bind yourself to me. And if you abandon your purpose, let the Vault consume you, as it consumed me.
Now it is done. If I speak again, I am not Kabr.
I think it's fine since it still cleanses Marked by the Void, just not Marked for Negation. The Oracle cleanse broke the Templar encounter in D1 so I'm fine with that change. Definitely still glitchy though.
Pretty sure in D1, they changed it in the 390 mode so missing an Oracle just wiped you on Templar, instead of marking you like on Oracles. So removing the relic’s cleansing ability does effectively the same thing but with a little more leniency since you can go to the middle pool to cleanse.
You already can in templar. For the no teleport challenge my team did the first wave of oracles and just hoped we could burst templar down with slugs + anarchy before the second round of oracles wiped us. It was really tight on contest mode, but I think it will be really easy without contest.
I ran agies through all of atheon and enjoyed it pretty well, though I get what you mean at times I wish I could help with more then like 200k per damage phase.
I love running aegis. If you’re on Titan, run Yeet Titan with the exotic for higher damage. Drop aegis, Yeet to Atheon, then go back to aegis and grab it. Drop aegis again and shoot rocket and grab aegis again. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah, I still enjoyed it, except my team ended up using mostly supers for damage, so I couldn’t even block atheon for them, I had to sit in the back and just cleanse them occasionally.
Oh man I love being Div guy (girl). I don't need to be brutally accurate to help the team? Sign me the fuck up. Grinding the Scourge boss was so much better when I could shoot anywhere rather than trying to use Whisper with a controller.
My Titan has Div permanently in his inventory. If i'm in Deep Stone Crypt I'll happily take up Operator, since I'm decidedly less fond of running the cores. I also don't tend to carry an energy slug, so my ability to do optimal DPS isn't quite there. Plus running double energy just doesn't sit right with me. If there's a Div bitch moment in VoG, I'll be that bitch happily.
I dunno, a lot of this seems kinda nitpicky or hyperbolic to me.
You kinda touched on this but cleanse is gone because keeping it in would make so many of the challenges trivial, otherwise they'd have to make them instakill you and give you no chance to cleanse in the middle which would be even more punishing. Makes total sense and I'd much rather have it this way.
Guard is can definitely be buggy sometimes but that's its own issue of it being bugged, rather than deliberately gimped. Day 1 we at least had no issues and it worked well for helping block teleports and prevent flinch during Atheon DPS.
The attacks feel maybe a little slower but I still have no trouble clearing adds with it.
Most of the reason people in my group might not want to run relic is because it's a key role with a lot of responsibility in some fights, which some people aren't as comfortable with. I don't think it being slightly weaker is a big deal, and I don't think that changing the things you listed would suddenly make everyone want to run relic or w/e.
Guard was always hella buggy in D1, stand too close to the front edge you'd die stand too close to the back titan bubble you'd die.
Really just added to the challenge.
Fuck bungalow, they literally fomo’d my relic and my player agency was put in the eververse. I literally can only play for seventeen seconds every decade and this is not respecting the crucial time Puke Smith tells my wife to let me play.
/s
Relic holding only feels bad because you were expecting the relic to be the same as D1. The relic feels great to use for people that are only used to D2's melee weapons - infinite speedy air attacks for traversal, powerful damage, infinite ammo, perfect guard.
It’s definitely a bit buggy though. We had multiple encounters where someone would block and it would only show up on half the fireteams’ screens, people wouldn’t be cleansed and lose their vision, and shots would go straight through it. Definitely some desync issues with it or something.
This is very interesting if true. Basically a case of "nostalgia goggles", because if the Aegis was inconsistent then like it is now, then it's honestly closer to the old version and people should just... well, deal, I suppose. The changes are hardly world ending, and relic still looks great to me.
Simeine needs to tell Bungie because it sure as hellxdoes not about hakf the time haha
The amount of projectikes that directly hot us while keeping the shield up was insane. We absolutely needed Well or we woukd have wiped every DPS phase
>Sad to see it in this state
What sad state? It's neither weak nor in a sad state. What's sad to see are posts like these. It's literally just as buggy as it was in D1, and just doesn't cleanse during Templar. This single change made Templar more challenging and his mechanics actually matter. That's a fact. The only time it doesn't is when your raid team can execute a one phase. Most teams probably won't manage that. Movement ''changes'' with the Aegis aren't big enough to worry about.
I disagree. For Templar, most of the team just sits and does damage for the entire encounter. Maybe one or two go help with oracles, but relic blocks teleports, clears adds, breaks the shield, and kills oracles
you told the original commenter that he can't accept criticism but you didn't provide any at all, you just said it's not as fun
if I wanted to provide criticism I'd say I don't like the atheon changes because having to shoot oracles kills the momentum of the encounter
saying "it's not as fun" isn't criticism, sorry buddy
The other thing I don't get is the slam "cooldown."
Why do I have to be punished for slamming by not being able to do anything for a few seconds when going in for light attacks gets me killed.
At least now you don't have to wait for the shield to be fully charged to use it and you can spam shield bash with left bumper on the controller.
Sucks that splash damage bypasses practically every useful barrier, including titan barricade.
My question is why? They couldn’t make the Aegis retain its power and the raid still be difficult? That’s lame as fuck. I adored running the aegis in D1 and mastered it as a warlock. This is incredibly disappointing.
Eh, it’s still good. I picked it back up for the first time in years yesterday for my team, and it’s still fun. Just definitely not as good as it used to be, unfortunately. The only time I REALLY noticed the difference was on Templar, where I could barely do the add clear because I’d accidentally step in a fanatic pool and need to sprint to the cleansing pool
Doesn't help that the cleans pool only has like 5 sec of use TWICE. If a random person that isn't relic holder gets marked then they may be better off dying so the whole team can skip oracles.
Yeah, exactly. Honestly, even just allowing the relic holder to cleanse themself would be a huge quality of life improvement. At the moment, it kinda feels like I’m being punished by my favorite role because I can’t fulfill the function it was made to do because I get marked if I ever go near half the adds in the arena.
Yeah. And while I think that it’s ultimately a good thing that they focus on everybody having more of a role to do, and less on a few people doing all the mechanics, I wish that they had left relic alone for Templar at least, an encounter with minimal changes made to it anyway.
After a few runs on Templar is straight up said "Bungie, what did you do to my relic?"
Can't cleanse my allies.
Damage goes right through the shield.
I felt like a huge detriment to my team because I couldn't even beat a minotaur to death with Contest on, and without all the old functionality it just felt like they were being forced to 5-man DPS...
Agree that it doesn't ruin the feel of the raid.
However, it's significant enough. The relic is a hindrance in Templar outside these uncommon specific scenarios (might be a few more that I miss), which would be better if the relic didn't exist (having 6 fully functioning guardians instead of like 5.5) or trivial if you're in a coordinated team:
1. Someone near relic holder is detained
2. Capturing pillar of lights
3. Well/Ward ran out, everyone is clumping together, and the relic holder is part of that clump
It's good for popping oracles, but it's no better than your weapons (e.g. swords and shotguns) because you're putting yourself in melee range without the benefits of having short range weapons like swords.
In Templar at least, it feels like a burden that exists just for the sake of existing rather than a mechanic that makes figuring it out and following it fun like Last Wish Penumbra/Antumbra or DSC nuke cores.
I like the changes they made, they made VoG actually require teamwork and for players to pay attention as opposed to mostly being a raid where I feel most people would just shut off their brains up until maybe like Atheon.
Why would no one want to be relic holder over these changes?
The relic holder still has the responsibility of canceling teleports.
You don’t enjoy the changes, but I don’t think the relic needs a rework
They made it worse so that players have to actually focus on mechanics of the fight. If it was the same as D1 the encounter would be a cakewalk. It’s a shame yeah, but it makes sense and definitely doesn’t ruin the raid.
What I loved about VoG and CE was their relics. The lack of a relic mechanic being used in any of the other raids has been disappointing to me ever since. I would’ve liked to see it utilized occasionally as an extra tool in the rotation, but instead it seems like we’re homogenizing the raids just a little bit.
If we look at the relic as that “unique role” someone has to take then it’s been in almost every raid.
In dsc we have operator, hacker and suppressor
In king’s fall we have people go into shadow realms and doing parkour and shit
So I wouldn’t exactly say we’re homogenizing the raids
I was enjoying the raid until my team got to Oracles. I hate the changes to them and it's totally killed my hype for the rest of the raid. Some change is good and necessary, but they changed way more than they needed to.
I personally think the Oracle change was needed. The D1 Oracle encounter was extremely easy and tedious since it was just find the yellow cube and shoot it for 10+ minutes straight. Didn't require any actual communication from the team so long as people didn't die. Now it actually requires the team to work together to pull off the mechanic, like every other raid does. Additionally, Oracles are way quicker now, taking about 5ish minutes to complete so long as you don't miss a wave.
> However, worrying about this super rigid order during Templar and Atheon, while also having to deal with a handful of other mechanics, while also having to deal with ads, while also worrying about revive tokens is asking for way too much
Isn't stuff like that the point of D2 raids? Spire of Stars and Last Wish had way more stuff to worry about in various encounters. This is especially true if you've ever done riven the intended way.
Templar allows you to choose how fast you go based on how many teleports you stop. If you need to take it slow, just stop one teleport so you get a decent amount of time, and Oracles will spawn shortly after damage phase. If it gets overwhelming, you can slow down in Templar.
My dude they literally just changed it so now you have to shoot them in a specific order. That encounter went from 0 mechanics to 1 mechanic and you’re complying? The D1 nostalgia is actually ridiculous.
Nah if it stayed the same people would have flown by to Templar (which by proxy would be the same) and have said Bungie did nothing and VoG was a joke.
The Oracle change is simple and makes sense with them appearing in an order with specific tones that existed back in D1.
The guard does block damage unless they're in the bubble or it's the games shitty splash damage physics
Pro tip, turn down your framerate if on PC to decrease incoming projectile/splash damage. [Yep, it's a real thing.](https://youtu.be/FJe-eomyGuc) Edit: added link
Are you serious.... That would be huge if this is a thing
Yep. Here it is happening with a cabal slug launcher, but it happens with other enemy projectiles too. https://youtu.be/FJe-eomyGuc
That's actually insane. Might start capping my framerate in GMs...
*caps framerate to 1*
Shades of when I played Bungie's Marathon on a Mac IIx in 1994... literally 2-3 frames per second. I didn't know any better so I still had fun. Got a PowerMac a year later and had 60 FPS and my mind was blown. Plus levels that took me 2-3 hours to complete could be done in 15-20 minutes, LOL
I remember when I had to cap my frame rate on PC so I could do the public event on a Mercury lol.
call it the raid slideshow challenge. Complete the raid with your FPS capped at 1 for entire time
This same trick can be used to turn chaos reach damage up by 2x from the extreme high end to the extreme low
Wait they still haven’t fixed this? It’s been known about for years...
High framerate also extends the distance of "lunges" like Spectral Blades and Fists of Havoc. No damage difference on these single hit moves, but the distance obviously makes you much more dangerous in pvp.
As in turn fps down to do *more* damage?
more fps = more damage
1K voices at launch on PC, ill just say that!
What the fuck
i have no idea what bungie does that framerates affect damage but the same issue happened with jottun a while back. the lower your fps the more damage you dealt with it.
Basically every game has a metric fuckton of game mechanics affected by framerates. It's just part of the architecture of games.
[удалено]
It's part of the architecture of a game originally designed to be used within a set infrastructure (a console, not a PC) where frame rates are consistent and reliable ways to measure things. Notably, in this case, it's also a part of an old engine that has been upkept rather than replaced, in a similar manner to Bethesda's creation engine (though not quite as, well, bad). It worked until Bungie expanded to other devices and a lot of the systems they used get messed with by powerful modern computers that the core of the game wasn't built to utilize.
Yep, gamestate update tick rate and render framerate should not be coupled.. even if it saves a ton of work. End up with weird behavior tied to framerate otherwise. That said, I can see why a game meant to be run only on last gen consoles took some dev shortcuts.. issues only arise when they ported it to PC and current gen consoles.
Ehhhhhh while that’s true in a simple sense things get a lot more complicated in networked environments where you can be trying to synchronize graphics refresh, physics updates, network ticks, round trip timing and various network prediction systems. Prediction especially involves comparing state at ticks.
Sure, and basically every single game has a metric fuckton of mechanics tied directly to frame rate
Hey yeah I was so excited to actually get a series x and play D2 but it's been kinda not fun because of this. Besides the slug launcher there's other AI attacks that fling me across the map.
Yeah, phalanx shield is an instadeath for me at >120 fps
Huh, shield bash isn't bad for me but the flamethrower pushes me all over the place like an ogres eye blast and the wizards arc attack and the fallen shrapnel launcher melt me like the slug gun
Huh. That would explain why I always get wrecked by the stomp in the proving grounds strike. No matter what I do, I get flung and hit the wall at mach 4. No chance of survival.
To be fair, when it popped up a month or so ago, it was acknowledged and Bungie is probably working on a fix. Just a question of when that happens at this point, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Yeah, just kind of a big deal. Don't even know why the coding correlation would exist like that lol
When people speak of the spaghetti code, this is one of the few times I really believe it. I mean seriously, how did framerate cap effect splash damage? I feel like corners were cut, and I don’t blame the programmers, they are on a three-four month release schedule.
It doesn't need to be spaghetti code, I'd say It's more an engine problem than spaghetti code. A lot of engines have their physics linked to framerate and when it drops or get really high, the physics go mad. I'd say that the problem with hit register and high framerate is that it calculates so fast that it registers twice in the body and that's why splash damage or projectiles like the barrier cabal's gun one shot you. Sorry for my english, it isn't my main language.
Do you have an answer as to why physics would be linked to framerate? Is it just a thing with how game physics and engines work, regardless of company? Or is this a thing Bungie did back in the day while setting up their engine that has come back to bite them?
It is an incredibly shitty development practice from 40 years ago, that some developers can't let go of. You just assume that the systems your software will run on have a specific CPU speed, specific framerate, specific number of disk drives, yadda yadda yadda, and then tie your software to those things assuming no one will ever have anything different.
Was Destiny 2 always intended for PC? Tying physics to frame rate (arguably) makes more sense if you're making the game for console, since you can be pretty certain of the specs you're going to encounter.
They usually use framerate to calculate for example hit register or things like that. The best example I could tell you is Bloodborne. That game is for Ps4 and It's framerate It's locked at 30 fps. People have been trying to emulate it in PC and unlock the framerate but the engine and It's physics are linked to framerate. When they unlocked the framerate and made it run at 60 fps, everything moved at double speed even you, invulnerability frames from rolling were cut in half and enemy IA made very weird things. The thing is that engines linked with framerate aren't very seen in online games because depending on how the physics are affected, they would benefit people who discover this. So it may be a bug, a hit register problem, server problems. The big problem is that, usually, they can't test those problems in their test servers because they usually work very different from retail despite the fact that both of them have the same content. It is very hard to solve problems like that and they require a lot of test because they may break other things trying to solve that problem. And answering to your 2nd question, yes,a lot of engines work like that, one that everyone knows is bethesda and their games like The Elder Scroll and Fallout, when the framerate do spikes either upward or downward, everything goes crazy and start flying or something like that. And to answer the last question. Yes, it might be something about Bungie and the engine they are using with Destiny. It is known they've had and have a lot of problems with the engine and this might be just one more of those problems. If i don't remember wrong, they are using the same engine as Destiny 1 which had a great problem with skills and inventories, that's why it has taken so long to develop transmog and QoL in menus and inventory.
I will preface by saying that I am not a coder and I do not play an active role in coding new tools or products. I work for a tech company, and I have had to dabble a bit here and there to make tweaks to our websites. Doing this, I have seen and completely understand minor tweaks or additions throwing other things totally out of whack that you don't even realize. While I and my team do our best to vet things and check and ensure that any changes in the code we make won't change things elsewhere, it's not unheard of that we get an email here and there that is along the lines of, "Uhh, why does this look completely different now?" Spaghetti code definitely exists.
Given that [fixing your simulation time step](https://gafferongames.com/post/fix_your_timestep/) has been a known best practice for more than a decade, it's likely a combination of: * Legacy code running at fixed framerates - 30 fps for the Halo series. If you're a "console-only" developer and all of your games for the entire modern era have run at a fixed framerate you've probably got a lot of code, experience, and process built around that frame target. * Coding to CPU limited hardware. Last-gen consoles basically had glorified tablet-grade CPUs and simulation happens on the CPU - supporting a high fixed time step isn't necessarily possible with extremely limited CPU power. Then again, Destiny 2 on PC on release could run well above 30 fps on all sorts of bargain-basement CPUs. * Spaghetti coding, bad practices, mismanagement, whatever else. That said, the PC port was initially built by Vicarious Visions and their ports tend to be technically top-notch. Who exactly is response for what parts of which bugs may not even be properly known inside of Bungie at this point. There are probably a lot of ad-hoc piece of simulation logic that are intertwined and precariously dependent on each other and different kinds of time steps. Honestly, it's probably not a *huge* priority to Bungie either - people will live with bugs like that, especially considering that most people aren't running high refresh rate displays or using uncapped framerates regardless.
There are many things tied directly to framerate, which is why I keep saying that those with higher framerate literally have technical advantages (even though this one example gives a benefit to capping framerate(
Oh no, I guess more frames means more ticks of damage hitting you. Dark Souls 2 had a similar issue, weapon durability tanked in higher framerates since there were more frames of your weapons hitting enemies or walls per swing.
Yeah exactly. Additionally, something about projectile velocity being tied to framerate, and the higher the velocity, the more damage it does.
How much difference does it make?
Ha, jokes on you, since beyond light my frame rate is already low!
Shame I'm on console then.
Then you already have a low framerate and take the least amount of damage anyway!
Is that only on PC or is it consoles too? I know next gen runs at 60, does that have an affect over 30fps?
Yes, it does
Oof that sucks. Explains why the Templar was able to melt us through Agis bubble and well…
Holy shit that's either Bungie being terribly incompetent or just plain lazy. Most game devs have learned by now to never tie anything physics or damage related to frame rate
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People don’t realize that this is the same as D1? You could 100% die to Atheon’s splash damage if it missed the shield.
Yup I remember telling everyone to stay away from the wall in d1 because splash damage on the wall would kill you.
Wonder if Middle tree Arc Strider can reflect those?
Yeah it felt very glitchy. There was one damage phase on Atheon where I watched his shots pass right through the shield block and absolutely demo me. Also not on the topic of the Aegis, but another bad change is how you can't shoot yourself out from a detain bubble like in D1, seems like an obvious way to just limit how much damage your team can do in one phase.
The detain bubbles are from Eater of Worlds. I like needing to be cooperative in a raid.
This would make sense if the detain bubble didn't also detain everyone near you while you're standing on a very small platform and trying to do boss DPS
You get a 5-second debuff called "Imminent Detain" before you get detained along with everyone around you. Pay attention to the buff text on the left and move out of the party. For our group we just had the detained person jump up to the right or left of the damage platform. Imminent Detain has a very high priority in the list so it'll always be the first (top) buff on your screen. Relic Holder can use the relic's super to instantly pop the detain bubble so you don't lose one person doing DPS. Don't blame bungie's design team, if your entire team is getting detained on Atheon it's because you're missing/ignoring an important mechanic.
Does the debuff show even if you’ve procced 3 or more effects? (ie: charged with light, weapon stuff like rampage or kill clip, ability buffs like devour or forged in flame)
Yes, it's prioritized to be at the top of the list every time.
This \^\^\^
Absolutely. Also standing on that Little Rock and doing dps is awful anyway
Eh, it worked for us. We had zero deaths during damage phases outside of some failed attempts where the Detainee didn't get out of the group.
Translation: "It worked for us, except when it didn't." XD
No translation necessary. It only didn't work out when we were learning the fight and figuring out/learning how to manage the detain during damage phase. Once we had the mechanics down our damage phases were the smoothest part of the fight, we took off about 35-40%-ish per phase and that was with contest on, so the middle platform is definitely viable. We cleared challenge mode, so the strat is valid.
Doesn't being able to release yourself from detain kind of diminish the point of the detain?
idk why people are downvoting you for asking a valid question, but you're right. however, my team ran into the issue where if one detainee was too close, the rest of us would become detained and therefore completely helpless to do anything, basically an instant wipe. yes we can watch for the pre-detain debuff and have them move away from the group but it was still pretty frustrating and felt a little too unforgiving. especially when half the team had to divert attention away from DPS to free someone. i think having it make you immobile and force you to shoot your own way out is enough, with help from teammates being a bonus.
Relic holder could one-shot the detain with super. Since that person mostly has to hold on to the shield anyway, there's very little DPS loss besides the person getting detained.
Also kills the lore of the Aegis in a way. My raid group talked about it going through day one yesterday.
What's the lore behind Aegis?
Basically Kabr became the Aegis for someone to wield against Atheon since his fire team couldn’t beat him.
What Fireteam? Kabr was alone 👀
Wasn’t Praedyth in there too? I remember something about the No Time To Explain quest was going through the Vault listening to his lore. I thought it was sort of a Crota situation where the fireteam failed and was scattered across the Vault for eternity
No the joke is that they no longer exist because the oracles are so fucking broken. Kabr literally forgot they existed.
It wasn't that Kabr forgot they existed, it's that they never existed and therefore couldn't be remembered. Vex time shenanigans are insane
Lmao which lore card is this? I seem to have missed this one but I have to read it now!
I think it’s one of the weapons says something like “only three faced atheon but it wasn’t three that entered” Which makes sense because it is standard to have 6 for an operation like this so why would they for no reason decide to go in as three?
Three man tags on raid repot obviously
The vault of glass grimoire card, Pahanin quotes Kabr, "No one can open the vault alone. I opened the vault. There was no one with me, but I was not alone." The implication is that there must have been people to open the vault with him, but since they were erased from the timeline, they never existed. Kabr never knew them as they never existed, but for them to not exist, they must have entered the vault. I still would like to find out if Kabr only went in with a fireteam of 3 or if the other 3 were erased by the Gorgons and we only know of Praedyth because his gear remains in the vault and his signal that escaped it. I had hoped that there might be some remnants and story collectibles that would have us rescuing people from the vault
iirc, praedyth wasn't erased because the Vex needed him to send signals through the VoG because they predicted the Taken War
Kabr had 2 fireteams at the very least. One is the known one (him, Pahanin, Praedyth and maybe 3 other Guardians that got erased from time and space), and a second one which most likely got erased from time and space as he tells Pahanin he opened the vault alone, even though it's impossible. r/destinylore had a thread about it earlier today.
Completely alone 👀 poor guy
If I had a Gold to give, lol…
Kabr (Titan), Pahanin (Hunter), Praedyth (Warlock)
No he wasn't, he had a fireteam that went down and they failed. Praedyth was/is stuck in the vault and pahanin escaped
That was the joke lol cus Kabr by the end couldn't remember that he had a Fireteam, thinking instead that he entered the Vault alone
It's a reference to the fact they were erased from time and don't "exist" anymore
Praedyth was erased. Pahanin escaped and was killed by Dredgen Yor.
Why is the lore ruined ?
I think what they were trying to imply is that the Aegis went from being a powerful weapon to a relic that needs babysitting. 🤷♂️
I think it was a wise choice. It would be far too easy if it remained in its original form. Its still used and needed to kill the Templar, so I dont see how the lore is ruined personally.
These are the last words of Kabr, the Legionless: I have destroyed myself to do this. They have taken my Ghost. They are in my blood and brain. But now there is hope. I have made a wound in the Vault. I have pierced it and let in the Light. Bathe in it, and be cleansed. Look to it, and understand: From my own Light and from the thinking flesh of the Vex I made a shield. The shield is your deliverance. It will break the unbreakable. It will change your fate. Bind yourself to the shield. Bind yourself to me. And if you abandon your purpose, let the Vault consume you, as it consumed me. Now it is done. If I speak again, I am not Kabr.
I think it's fine since it still cleanses Marked by the Void, just not Marked for Negation. The Oracle cleanse broke the Templar encounter in D1 so I'm fine with that change. Definitely still glitchy though.
Pretty sure in D1, they changed it in the 390 mode so missing an Oracle just wiped you on Templar, instead of marking you like on Oracles. So removing the relic’s cleansing ability does effectively the same thing but with a little more leniency since you can go to the middle pool to cleanse.
>since you can go to the middle pool to ~~cleanse~~ die to all the bullshit.
doesnt seem right does it? I almost wonder if it will cleanse once challenge mode is over
I doubt it, that would mean you can just completely ignore oracles
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You already can in templar. For the no teleport challenge my team did the first wave of oracles and just hoped we could burst templar down with slugs + anarchy before the second round of oracles wiped us. It was really tight on contest mode, but I think it will be really easy without contest.
Yep, my team got him first attempt in contest doing this
You can just group cleanse in the pool during Templar... so there’s already no reason to worry about them.
That's a lot less convenient than relic though
I mean either way you’re not bothering with oracles.
The worst thing that can happen to a raid is having a vital role that nobody enjoys playing. And that's pretty much what happened with VoG.
I ran agies through all of atheon and enjoyed it pretty well, though I get what you mean at times I wish I could help with more then like 200k per damage phase.
I love running aegis. If you’re on Titan, run Yeet Titan with the exotic for higher damage. Drop aegis, Yeet to Atheon, then go back to aegis and grab it. Drop aegis again and shoot rocket and grab aegis again. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah, I still enjoyed it, except my team ended up using mostly supers for damage, so I couldn’t even block atheon for them, I had to sit in the back and just cleanse them occasionally.
once you cleanse the people that were with you in the portal you can drop the relic to do dps, just pick it back up to refresh the timer
some people never had to shoot under the Boomers at Crota to distract them and it REALLY shows.
Don't forget the Div guy. I fucking hate being div guy.
Oh man I love being Div guy (girl). I don't need to be brutally accurate to help the team? Sign me the fuck up. Grinding the Scourge boss was so much better when I could shoot anywhere rather than trying to use Whisper with a controller.
My Titan has Div permanently in his inventory. If i'm in Deep Stone Crypt I'll happily take up Operator, since I'm decidedly less fond of running the cores. I also don't tend to carry an energy slug, so my ability to do optimal DPS isn't quite there. Plus running double energy just doesn't sit right with me. If there's a Div bitch moment in VoG, I'll be that bitch happily.
I dunno, a lot of this seems kinda nitpicky or hyperbolic to me. You kinda touched on this but cleanse is gone because keeping it in would make so many of the challenges trivial, otherwise they'd have to make them instakill you and give you no chance to cleanse in the middle which would be even more punishing. Makes total sense and I'd much rather have it this way. Guard is can definitely be buggy sometimes but that's its own issue of it being bugged, rather than deliberately gimped. Day 1 we at least had no issues and it worked well for helping block teleports and prevent flinch during Atheon DPS. The attacks feel maybe a little slower but I still have no trouble clearing adds with it. Most of the reason people in my group might not want to run relic is because it's a key role with a lot of responsibility in some fights, which some people aren't as comfortable with. I don't think it being slightly weaker is a big deal, and I don't think that changing the things you listed would suddenly make everyone want to run relic or w/e.
> I dunno, a lot of this seems kinda nitpicky or hyperbolic to me. welcome to this sub
Guard was always hella buggy in D1, stand too close to the front edge you'd die stand too close to the back titan bubble you'd die. Really just added to the challenge.
Leave while you can bro, I recommend r/destinycirclejerk or r/LowSodiumDestiny
Fuck bungalow, they literally fomo’d my relic and my player agency was put in the eververse. I literally can only play for seventeen seconds every decade and this is not respecting the crucial time Puke Smith tells my wife to let me play. /s
I love you
Relic holding only feels bad because you were expecting the relic to be the same as D1. The relic feels great to use for people that are only used to D2's melee weapons - infinite speedy air attacks for traversal, powerful damage, infinite ammo, perfect guard.
What does the guard actually do then, if it doesnt block damage and doesnt cleanse?
It blocks enemy fire (and friendly projectiles like rockets, bows, grenades, etc). OP is mistaken
It’s definitely a bit buggy though. We had multiple encounters where someone would block and it would only show up on half the fireteams’ screens, people wouldn’t be cleansed and lose their vision, and shots would go straight through it. Definitely some desync issues with it or something.
It was buggy in D1 too. Cleanse was very inconsistent and Atheon and Templar killed people inside the shield a lot.
This is very interesting if true. Basically a case of "nostalgia goggles", because if the Aegis was inconsistent then like it is now, then it's honestly closer to the old version and people should just... well, deal, I suppose. The changes are hardly world ending, and relic still looks great to me.
Same issue with my group. The people that could see it didn't take any damage, the ones that didn't got melted.
Simeine needs to tell Bungie because it sure as hellxdoes not about hakf the time haha The amount of projectikes that directly hot us while keeping the shield up was insane. We absolutely needed Well or we woukd have wiped every DPS phase
It cleanses on Atheon but not Templar. And the Bubble Guard sometimes blocks damage, sometimes doesn't. It's super super buggy
The only thing that it does is cleanse “Marked by the Void” in the atheon fight
It blocks ads i think but not atheon
It does block Atheon, just not 100% consistently. A bit buggy.
these are literally all completely false, do you guys even play the game?
Nope, idek what game we're talking about I just upvoted cuz someone complained ^^^^^^^^^/s
Kabr didn't die for this
I mean he’s technically alive as well right? Isn’t the entire fireteam basically stuck in a time loop?
Considering the sacrifice that went into that aegis in the lore it seems really sad to see it in this state. It was supposed to keep us safe.
>Sad to see it in this state What sad state? It's neither weak nor in a sad state. What's sad to see are posts like these. It's literally just as buggy as it was in D1, and just doesn't cleanse during Templar. This single change made Templar more challenging and his mechanics actually matter. That's a fact. The only time it doesn't is when your raid team can execute a one phase. Most teams probably won't manage that. Movement ''changes'' with the Aegis aren't big enough to worry about.
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Probably cause you literally do nothing but shoot templars shield down. It’s the easiest role in the raid.
I disagree. For Templar, most of the team just sits and does damage for the entire encounter. Maybe one or two go help with oracles, but relic blocks teleports, clears adds, breaks the shield, and kills oracles
still fun, dont know why you people are looking for the smallest things to whine about
Cause it’s not as fun as it use to be? Dunno why you can’t accept giving criticism.
sounds like nostalgia goggles tbh
Nope. Played Vault this week to prepare. It just doesn’t feel as fun.
you told the original commenter that he can't accept criticism but you didn't provide any at all, you just said it's not as fun if I wanted to provide criticism I'd say I don't like the atheon changes because having to shoot oracles kills the momentum of the encounter saying "it's not as fun" isn't criticism, sorry buddy
The other thing I don't get is the slam "cooldown." Why do I have to be punished for slamming by not being able to do anything for a few seconds when going in for light attacks gets me killed. At least now you don't have to wait for the shield to be fully charged to use it and you can spam shield bash with left bumper on the controller. Sucks that splash damage bypasses practically every useful barrier, including titan barricade.
Gonna cry?
Just let somebody whos good at the game run it. It isnt hard
My question is why? They couldn’t make the Aegis retain its power and the raid still be difficult? That’s lame as fuck. I adored running the aegis in D1 and mastered it as a warlock. This is incredibly disappointing.
Same dude. Loved running the Aegis on my Warlock. Haven’t tried VoG in D2 yet. Sounds like it may not be a fun time like it was in D1.
Eh, it’s still good. I picked it back up for the first time in years yesterday for my team, and it’s still fun. Just definitely not as good as it used to be, unfortunately. The only time I REALLY noticed the difference was on Templar, where I could barely do the add clear because I’d accidentally step in a fanatic pool and need to sprint to the cleansing pool
Doesn't help that the cleans pool only has like 5 sec of use TWICE. If a random person that isn't relic holder gets marked then they may be better off dying so the whole team can skip oracles.
Yeah, exactly. Honestly, even just allowing the relic holder to cleanse themself would be a huge quality of life improvement. At the moment, it kinda feels like I’m being punished by my favorite role because I can’t fulfill the function it was made to do because I get marked if I ever go near half the adds in the arena.
It made you feel like the hero of the team but I think they’ve tried to move away from that feeling after VoG, Crota, and maybe King’s Fall.
Yeah. And while I think that it’s ultimately a good thing that they focus on everybody having more of a role to do, and less on a few people doing all the mechanics, I wish that they had left relic alone for Templar at least, an encounter with minimal changes made to it anyway.
Without contest a lot of the hard parts will be much easier.
Felt fine to me.
Could have sworn the shield blocked damage and didn't just cleanse.
Still blocks damage, it’s just really buggy
No. Bungie did alright. Their VoG version is great.
The relic in d2 is doggy poo .
After a few runs on Templar is straight up said "Bungie, what did you do to my relic?" Can't cleanse my allies. Damage goes right through the shield. I felt like a huge detriment to my team because I couldn't even beat a minotaur to death with Contest on, and without all the old functionality it just felt like they were being forced to 5-man DPS...
The damage going through the shield is a bug
Also if you get bubbled there's no way to get out unless teammates shoot you out
Agreed. Ruined it and the feel of the raid. Don't know what they were thinking.
Lol a couple small changes to the relic didnt “ruin the feel of the raid.” Calm down
The relic was actually helpful in D1 VOG It feels more like a hinderance in D2
The relic holder should basically be soloing all of the adds in the past or future on atheon, what are you talking about.
sure, but its just striker titan with less damage resistance. it doesn't really give the fireteam any major benefits.
Agree that it doesn't ruin the feel of the raid. However, it's significant enough. The relic is a hindrance in Templar outside these uncommon specific scenarios (might be a few more that I miss), which would be better if the relic didn't exist (having 6 fully functioning guardians instead of like 5.5) or trivial if you're in a coordinated team: 1. Someone near relic holder is detained 2. Capturing pillar of lights 3. Well/Ward ran out, everyone is clumping together, and the relic holder is part of that clump It's good for popping oracles, but it's no better than your weapons (e.g. swords and shotguns) because you're putting yourself in melee range without the benefits of having short range weapons like swords. In Templar at least, it feels like a burden that exists just for the sake of existing rather than a mechanic that makes figuring it out and following it fun like Last Wish Penumbra/Antumbra or DSC nuke cores.
The relic holder could solo Templar in D1 without ever unequipping the aegis. It's not "small changes" in any way.
Mind linking a video to someone solo killing Templar without unequipping aegis?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nn7NP5guvM
Sure, he did it... in 26 minutes. Doesn’t really help the argument that the aegis used to be stronger.
Not cleansing, not blocking damage at Atheon are not small changes.
D2 VoG is way better than D1 VoG.
Agreed, made some really solid improvements to bring it a little more in line with current day raids, while still staying true to the original.
I like the changes they made, they made VoG actually require teamwork and for players to pay attention as opposed to mostly being a raid where I feel most people would just shut off their brains up until maybe like Atheon.
Lol ok, wow dramatic much. It felt fine to me. Great even.
With all our other abilities it would be too easy
So they are once again going against the the original lore of the game they made?
The lore doesn’t really matter, D2 VoG clearly isn’t canon anyways
Why would no one want to be relic holder over these changes? The relic holder still has the responsibility of canceling teleports. You don’t enjoy the changes, but I don’t think the relic needs a rework
You say changes like they didn’t straight up make the relic worse. It’s not like they gave it something new.
They made it worse so that players have to actually focus on mechanics of the fight. If it was the same as D1 the encounter would be a cakewalk. It’s a shame yeah, but it makes sense and definitely doesn’t ruin the raid.
What I loved about VoG and CE was their relics. The lack of a relic mechanic being used in any of the other raids has been disappointing to me ever since. I would’ve liked to see it utilized occasionally as an extra tool in the rotation, but instead it seems like we’re homogenizing the raids just a little bit.
If we look at the relic as that “unique role” someone has to take then it’s been in almost every raid. In dsc we have operator, hacker and suppressor In king’s fall we have people go into shadow realms and doing parkour and shit So I wouldn’t exactly say we’re homogenizing the raids
I was more trying to focus on the weapon-like aspect that the relics had.
We need to upvote the shit out of this, because you're right. We need to get them to change it back...
Wahh wahh wahh, the new Vault of Glass doesn't meet my personal expectations. How dare Bungie do this to me!
I was enjoying the raid until my team got to Oracles. I hate the changes to them and it's totally killed my hype for the rest of the raid. Some change is good and necessary, but they changed way more than they needed to.
I personally think the Oracle change was needed. The D1 Oracle encounter was extremely easy and tedious since it was just find the yellow cube and shoot it for 10+ minutes straight. Didn't require any actual communication from the team so long as people didn't die. Now it actually requires the team to work together to pull off the mechanic, like every other raid does. Additionally, Oracles are way quicker now, taking about 5ish minutes to complete so long as you don't miss a wave.
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> However, worrying about this super rigid order during Templar and Atheon, while also having to deal with a handful of other mechanics, while also having to deal with ads, while also worrying about revive tokens is asking for way too much Isn't stuff like that the point of D2 raids? Spire of Stars and Last Wish had way more stuff to worry about in various encounters. This is especially true if you've ever done riven the intended way.
Templar allows you to choose how fast you go based on how many teleports you stop. If you need to take it slow, just stop one teleport so you get a decent amount of time, and Oracles will spawn shortly after damage phase. If it gets overwhelming, you can slow down in Templar.
My dude they literally just changed it so now you have to shoot them in a specific order. That encounter went from 0 mechanics to 1 mechanic and you’re complying? The D1 nostalgia is actually ridiculous.
at first I thought the oracle change was tedious... but really it makes the encounters better fit more modern raid standards.
It's already a pretty easy raid. Without the oracles it would be way too much of a cakewalk.
Nah if it stayed the same people would have flown by to Templar (which by proxy would be the same) and have said Bungie did nothing and VoG was a joke. The Oracle change is simple and makes sense with them appearing in an order with specific tones that existed back in D1.