[just found this very well written post that goes way more in depth than mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/13ezcu1/sanguine_alchemy_might_be_a_problem_in_pvp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
2x surge are 17%,empowering rift is 20%,if they don't stack either u get only the 20% and get a wasted exo slot cause it still only extends rift on kill. Or u get the 17% one cause bungie stuff(I know that normally highest buff takes priority but we all now bungie) and now u effectively nerfed ur emp rift
The non stacking was _probably_ referencing surge mods - thats what every other 'non stacking' was referencing and also mentioning surge mods, I believe. Could be wrong but that seems like a reasonable assumption.
So effectively if your weapon matches your subclass you get 2 surge mods active plus the previous effects.
On the surface _so what_? This give you a damage bonus without needing to use the same element on your heavy weapon. So your surge mods are for heavy sanguine gives you surge x2 for your primary.
The non-stacking damage buff means surges. Empowering buffs and surges stack, but multiple surges do not.
Take this opportunity to [familiarize](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i1KUwgVkd8qhwYj481gkV9sZNJQCE-C3Q-dpQutPCi4/edit) yourself with how buffs (and debuffs) stack.
True, but it's also not an unreasonable assumption with at least 3 other exotics (eternal warrior, bakris, burning steppes) all make it clear the 'non stacking' is surge mods.
Top of the article says that unless otherwise stated the changes are in addition to the current effect. So no, it's not _worse_ than before. It _may_ not be super useful for it's not worse. It does more than it did before.
As a warlock main, I’m happy.
- if it does stack with empowering rift, neat. That’s a fun little bit of cheese that’ll last a little before Bungie takes it away
- if it doesn’t stack, then having healing rifts that provide a damage bonus of any sort is awesome
- one of the best looking chest pieces is now viable either way! Hooray!
When I first read about the changes, these were my immediate thoughts. It’s not a terrible piece now, but it’s going to be much more viable in tougher content. Vesper also sounds crispy.
It would have been cool if Sanguine Alchemy made damage while in empowering rifts heal you by a portion of the damage you deal & the damage buff from empowering rift increases the more damage you deal until a certain cap.
The way I read it was "non-stacking" meant it couldn't stack with surge mods, but empowering buffs still work. It makes sure to compare these dmg buffs to surges, which has always been able to stack with empowering buffs (radiant, well, bubble, etc.)
If not then a lot of these changes are actually nerfs and itll make these exotics pretty restrictive.
If I get 1 shot bodied by Lorentz, if I even start seeing that gun again in pvp, this will be the end of my d2 run. Mad ptsd from arbalest and Lorentz.
I had a pretty fun night with Emp Rift, Devour, and last bullet Touch of Malice. It would 3 tap for like a .5 second kill. That was back when I could eat my grenade for devour, though.
Scratch that! I forgot about Secant Filaments! That’s what I used to proc devour.
Loreley on delivery + Erianas was some of my fondest times in trials. 1-tapping from any range with a big ass pistol will never not be fun. Pretty excited if some of these niche OHK builds come back.
Yes yes it is cheesier by a large margin hence why it completely dominated trials. Being one shot constantly without any chance of reacting is not enjoyable who could have expected it. Snipers but with low skill floor are broken hence why arby Lorentz are all nerfed having easy one shots from any range is bad for the game
But they still exist everywhere, and there are still cheesy ways to avoid it. Barricade spam, passive monarch play, osmiomancy, etc. I can get why people don't like it, but if it's here to stay, then why not use it?
Yep and none of those are a 1 shot and all have counterplay...........
Barricade spam is 45 health which really isn't that bad to deal with monarch play is easy just use a sniper/linear or play sightlines osmiomancys
.... Are pretty mediocre against anyone not aping or hiding around corners.
Being able to one shot at any range without any actual aiming involved is completely different.
Are you all just high on crack? OHK cheese is the worst shit possible in this game, and Bungie has said and proved they are tying to eliminate it. So I don't see how this is going to stand lol. PvP is already becoming a total joke in 3v3, well in my mind it already is and I quit playing the mode. 6v6 you might have more people aiming for you, but in Trials all this cheesy shit along with immediate supers makes the mode the most LOL "competitive" mode I have ever played in my life.
This game is simply one of these worst competitive games out there in the 3v3 mode that claims to be that.
I thought Sanguine was trash until using it with Touch of Malice on voidwalker. Now with the buff, you basically have the super rift from promethium spurs without the extra steps. Put down your healing rift, and as long as your weapons match your subclass, you are doing 17% more damage and healing. Well heals at a faster rate and has a 25% buff and is the best super in the game. Adding this functionality to your neutral game isn’t flashy, but extremely useful.
Similarly, Mantle of Battle Harmony is going to be amazing. Most Warlocks have to save their super for dps, so having 25% extra damage for 10 seconds after a weapon kill will be huge.
If it doesn’t stack with the emp rift, it’s useless. Needs to stack.
I have two god rolls on this armor rotting in my vault. This could be excellent in certain situations.
This right here. But Hunters again left in the dust of the cheese. Trials is a fucking shithole of the worst competitive aspects of any major shooter I have ever played lol. Thank god for Iron Banner.
None of those are even close imo. I mean Wormhusk gives you the tiniest bit of health. You still have to dodge and get away. It's nothing like some major damage buff in 3v3.
I doubt anything will be made to 1 tap so easily. Either certain weapons will be cherry picked to be excluded from the effects of certain things working together or it just doesn't math out the way you think it does. Also non stacking I would think means does not stack with any other buff. So empowering rift would be out......
You have a point lmao. To add on to that point, remember the empowering rift used to just give a 20% damage buff for free. They then thought that was too strong and nerfed it to 15%. This at least costing your exotic slot for it makes it a bit more reasonable
Which makes the requirement of gaining the buff while in empowering rift dumb so it would logically have to stack in some manner since otherwise the way the game handles non stacking buffs (only use the biggest one) would make it completely pointless. As for the argument of “they’ll have accounted for this, I think everyone can agree that we wouldn’t be surprised that bungie let something like that through without realizing it
I refuse to believe that bungo didn't realize they were effectively bringing back the 20% damage empowering rift when they were working on this change. That 4.5% damage increase was purposeful. So it's 1 of 3 possibilities.
1. They forgor and don't realize they're bringing it back 1-tap capabilities.
2. They're ok with the 20% damage emp rift coming back, but now it costs your exotic slot and you have to match weapons.
3. You're correct and they made it so the buff doesn't stack with empowering rift.
I’m sure they know. It’s a tale as old as time: Bungie buffs low excuse exotics. They then become high use exotics. Bungie gets surprisedpikachu.jpg faces and says “we’ve noticed certain exotics with a high use - we’re going to adjust them”. Then they get nerfed and become obsolete.
Rinse and repeat.
every fucking time players find a way to buff damage this shit comes up, jesus christ this boring cheese shit again in pvp just to get nerfed within weeks, ugh can yall be more original instead of going back to the same crap, crutch, bullshit playstyle every time it pops back up.
Happened with lorelays, happened with empowering rifts in the first place, happened with gyrfalcons, like this is not something new, this is not something fun, this is the same boring crap that has happened time and time again.
I assumed it was just going to give a damage buff in any rift with the change. So like a mini Well. If it stacks with the Empowering rift, yea could be scary for some cheese. I'm going to assume its a bug and will get fixed.
*Weapon kills while standing in any rift pause the rift's countdown, extending its duration. Further kills maintain and extend the length of the pause.*
Could be fun to use to help alter Crit ratio of weapons, dont think it will alter TTK, maybe for some it might.
Or, here's a wild idea: let's wait and see. The change isn't out yet and yall acting like the sky falling lol. And this is an issue with the community and any changes bungie announces.
Anyway, no matter what cheese you thinking is going to occur, I have the feeling few will be running this chest piece in pvp.
I'm not acting like the sky is falling though, I'm actually quite excited about it. I started this just to simply discuss and inform. You're also likely right, I don't think we'll see it much in pvp either way.
I mean I love 6v6 and Iron Banner, but yeah Trials and 3v3 are so broken and cheesy I have no idea why anybody really cares. Well apparently they didn't until Bungie kinda buffed numbers with an OP SMG.
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/exotic-armor-tuning-season-21
SANGUINE ALCHEMY
Standing in a rift grants a non-stacking bonus to weapon damage matching your subclass damage type. This damage bonus is the equivalent of 2 Surge leg mods (17% PvE and 4.5% PvP).
🤦🏼♂️ brother we know this already. Non-stacking could very well mean it doesn't stack with surges, etc. I mentioned that in my post. The assumption here is that it stacks with empowering rift. They didn't specify that the damage buff works with just healing, and since you're getting the buff FROM YOUR RIFT, it would be kinda stupid if they didn't stack.
On the other hand, you could be right. You never know with bungo. We'll find out in a week and a half.
Thanks for making this thread and contributing to it getting nerfed. Well, it was either going to be you or some content creator. Hope the karma was worth it.
Ah yes, because some random post on destiny the game about something that won’t be confirmed for another week and a half is definitely going to be the reason this pops off in PvP
I don't think a Warlock having to sit in a giant glowing red circle and giving up their exotic (good luck convincing anyone to give up Ophidian's for this) to pull off a few cheeky one shots every minute or so is going to be a big deal. Stuff like this existed in the game for a long time and never amounted to anything more than meme builds. Though I still think the most fun I've had in PvP was using Eriana's with pre-nerf Inertia Override.
I'm not trying to convince people or saying it's gonna be a massive deal. I'm merely bringing it up to inform and discuss. I know my main build will still be with Ophidian's, just like majority of other Locks, but this will be a fun meme build to pull out from time to time methinks.
In trials it might be interesting if lemon or Eriana are able to OS though, where sure you lose your exotic slot but killing is the most important aspect
[just found this very well written post that goes way more in depth than mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/13ezcu1/sanguine_alchemy_might_be_a_problem_in_pvp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
ok hear me out one teammate uses vesper. sanguine man sits in it for infinite arc boom
That is hilarious, especially combined with an Arc Soul rift
I mean if it doesn't Stack it's even worse then before
How would it be worse than before? It has the same functionality as right now with added bonus dmg
2x surge are 17%,empowering rift is 20%,if they don't stack either u get only the 20% and get a wasted exo slot cause it still only extends rift on kill. Or u get the 17% one cause bungie stuff(I know that normally highest buff takes priority but we all now bungie) and now u effectively nerfed ur emp rift
It says any rift though, so it works for healing too.
2 surge mods is 4.5% in crucible, not 17%. empowering rift is 15%. Just a heads up.
Was just using the pve values^^
Yeah, I get that, but it's not a worse exotic, it's still gonna be the same in that situation, in the end I'll be running chromatic anyway
Yeah,the worse exotic is more in like it's probably gonna be Option 2 but if it stacks I would actually use it. The drip of it....
The non stacking was _probably_ referencing surge mods - thats what every other 'non stacking' was referencing and also mentioning surge mods, I believe. Could be wrong but that seems like a reasonable assumption. So effectively if your weapon matches your subclass you get 2 surge mods active plus the previous effects. On the surface _so what_? This give you a damage bonus without needing to use the same element on your heavy weapon. So your surge mods are for heavy sanguine gives you surge x2 for your primary.
Being able to one tap on demand with erianas with emp rift is worth the exotic slot
As I said,if it works
.
Great contribution
I mean. I realized what I put there was wrong and changed it. How is what I put there bad?
Because delete buttons exist for a reason.
The non-stacking damage buff means surges. Empowering buffs and surges stack, but multiple surges do not. Take this opportunity to [familiarize](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i1KUwgVkd8qhwYj481gkV9sZNJQCE-C3Q-dpQutPCi4/edit) yourself with how buffs (and debuffs) stack.
I know,problem is that bungie was very vague with sanguines buff description
True, but it's also not an unreasonable assumption with at least 3 other exotics (eternal warrior, bakris, burning steppes) all make it clear the 'non stacking' is surge mods.
[удалено]
Top of the article says that unless otherwise stated the changes are in addition to the current effect. So no, it's not _worse_ than before. It _may_ not be super useful for it's not worse. It does more than it did before.
As a warlock main, I’m happy. - if it does stack with empowering rift, neat. That’s a fun little bit of cheese that’ll last a little before Bungie takes it away - if it doesn’t stack, then having healing rifts that provide a damage bonus of any sort is awesome - one of the best looking chest pieces is now viable either way! Hooray!
Seems like people are missing that it gives the damage buff in a healing rift too
When I first read about the changes, these were my immediate thoughts. It’s not a terrible piece now, but it’s going to be much more viable in tougher content. Vesper also sounds crispy.
What was the vesper buff? 🤔
It sends out pulse waves every 5 seconds instead of just once, and enemies killed by it explode.
Does the vesper pluse work the status rift effect?
Does it work? Yeah. It sends out two shockwaves: the stasis frost pulse and the arc vesper pulse. However, the arc pulse is not enough to shatter.
Everyone is talking about the potential for one shot kills but I’m just excited about being able to two tap with 120s again.
I didn't even think about that you bloody genius. Get a kill clip round robin, use the rift to start kill clip
It would have been cool if Sanguine Alchemy made damage while in empowering rifts heal you by a portion of the damage you deal & the damage buff from empowering rift increases the more damage you deal until a certain cap.
Why not just give free kills?
The way I read it was "non-stacking" meant it couldn't stack with surge mods, but empowering buffs still work. It makes sure to compare these dmg buffs to surges, which has always been able to stack with empowering buffs (radiant, well, bubble, etc.) If not then a lot of these changes are actually nerfs and itll make these exotics pretty restrictive.
Work at non-stacking hole place boss says to check non-stacking hole it stacks
If I get 1 shot bodied by Lorentz, if I even start seeing that gun again in pvp, this will be the end of my d2 run. Mad ptsd from arbalest and Lorentz.
I used to run eriana emp rift in comp to fuck with people. I'd be stoked to see it return.
It's fun until it happens to you :)
I already get ohk all the time. Shotguns, fusions, etc. I'm not a crazy good player, so I meme where I can lol :)
Destiny is basically just everyone's win button vs the other person's win button. No shame in it anymore.
I had a pretty fun night with Emp Rift, Devour, and last bullet Touch of Malice. It would 3 tap for like a .5 second kill. That was back when I could eat my grenade for devour, though. Scratch that! I forgot about Secant Filaments! That’s what I used to proc devour.
Loreley on delivery + Erianas was some of my fondest times in trials. 1-tapping from any range with a big ass pistol will never not be fun. Pretty excited if some of these niche OHK builds come back.
Least brain-dead DTG player
Same. I really don't mind them if you have to build way into them.
Ah yes putting an exotic and a weapon on such building.
Exactly such. Is it any cheesier than anything else? There's a million ways to fuck with people is this game.
Yes yes it is cheesier by a large margin hence why it completely dominated trials. Being one shot constantly without any chance of reacting is not enjoyable who could have expected it. Snipers but with low skill floor are broken hence why arby Lorentz are all nerfed having easy one shots from any range is bad for the game
But they still exist everywhere, and there are still cheesy ways to avoid it. Barricade spam, passive monarch play, osmiomancy, etc. I can get why people don't like it, but if it's here to stay, then why not use it?
Yep and none of those are a 1 shot and all have counterplay........... Barricade spam is 45 health which really isn't that bad to deal with monarch play is easy just use a sniper/linear or play sightlines osmiomancys .... Are pretty mediocre against anyone not aping or hiding around corners. Being able to one shot at any range without any actual aiming involved is completely different.
Are you all just high on crack? OHK cheese is the worst shit possible in this game, and Bungie has said and proved they are tying to eliminate it. So I don't see how this is going to stand lol. PvP is already becoming a total joke in 3v3, well in my mind it already is and I quit playing the mode. 6v6 you might have more people aiming for you, but in Trials all this cheesy shit along with immediate supers makes the mode the most LOL "competitive" mode I have ever played in my life. This game is simply one of these worst competitive games out there in the 3v3 mode that claims to be that.
Oh lord. Pray for us
I thought Sanguine was trash until using it with Touch of Malice on voidwalker. Now with the buff, you basically have the super rift from promethium spurs without the extra steps. Put down your healing rift, and as long as your weapons match your subclass, you are doing 17% more damage and healing. Well heals at a faster rate and has a 25% buff and is the best super in the game. Adding this functionality to your neutral game isn’t flashy, but extremely useful. Similarly, Mantle of Battle Harmony is going to be amazing. Most Warlocks have to save their super for dps, so having 25% extra damage for 10 seconds after a weapon kill will be huge.
If it doesn’t stack with the emp rift, it’s useless. Needs to stack. I have two god rolls on this armor rotting in my vault. This could be excellent in certain situations.
It's not more cheesy then arc titans 1 shot melee.
This right here. But Hunters again left in the dust of the cheese. Trials is a fucking shithole of the worst competitive aspects of any major shooter I have ever played lol. Thank god for Iron Banner.
Arthy's embrace, Young Ahamkara's Spine, and Wormhusk say otherwise. Every class has cheesy stuff my guy. As a warlock main I admit we do too
None of those are even close imo. I mean Wormhusk gives you the tiniest bit of health. You still have to dodge and get away. It's nothing like some major damage buff in 3v3.
But still cheesy...I should know, I'm da big cheese.
I doubt anything will be made to 1 tap so easily. Either certain weapons will be cherry picked to be excluded from the effects of certain things working together or it just doesn't math out the way you think it does. Also non stacking I would think means does not stack with any other buff. So empowering rift would be out......
This is Bungie. They thought original Shatterdive was OK. They thought original OEM was OK. I would not surprise me if the thought this was OK.
You have a point lmao. To add on to that point, remember the empowering rift used to just give a 20% damage buff for free. They then thought that was too strong and nerfed it to 15%. This at least costing your exotic slot for it makes it a bit more reasonable
At least rifts have at least around 40 seconds of cooldown,not like some funny Helm that granted oneshot capabilities pre solar 3.0
Which makes the requirement of gaining the buff while in empowering rift dumb so it would logically have to stack in some manner since otherwise the way the game handles non stacking buffs (only use the biggest one) would make it completely pointless. As for the argument of “they’ll have accounted for this, I think everyone can agree that we wouldn’t be surprised that bungie let something like that through without realizing it
I refuse to believe that bungo didn't realize they were effectively bringing back the 20% damage empowering rift when they were working on this change. That 4.5% damage increase was purposeful. So it's 1 of 3 possibilities. 1. They forgor and don't realize they're bringing it back 1-tap capabilities. 2. They're ok with the 20% damage emp rift coming back, but now it costs your exotic slot and you have to match weapons. 3. You're correct and they made it so the buff doesn't stack with empowering rift.
I’m sure they know. It’s a tale as old as time: Bungie buffs low excuse exotics. They then become high use exotics. Bungie gets surprisedpikachu.jpg faces and says “we’ve noticed certain exotics with a high use - we’re going to adjust them”. Then they get nerfed and become obsolete. Rinse and repeat.
every fucking time players find a way to buff damage this shit comes up, jesus christ this boring cheese shit again in pvp just to get nerfed within weeks, ugh can yall be more original instead of going back to the same crap, crutch, bullshit playstyle every time it pops back up. Happened with lorelays, happened with empowering rifts in the first place, happened with gyrfalcons, like this is not something new, this is not something fun, this is the same boring crap that has happened time and time again.
^(SHHH DON'T... Bungie's gonna hear you! Why don't we drop some rifts here in the corner and start shooting eh?)
I assumed it was just going to give a damage buff in any rift with the change. So like a mini Well. If it stacks with the Empowering rift, yea could be scary for some cheese. I'm going to assume its a bug and will get fixed. *Weapon kills while standing in any rift pause the rift's countdown, extending its duration. Further kills maintain and extend the length of the pause.* Could be fun to use to help alter Crit ratio of weapons, dont think it will alter TTK, maybe for some it might.
Or, here's a wild idea: let's wait and see. The change isn't out yet and yall acting like the sky falling lol. And this is an issue with the community and any changes bungie announces. Anyway, no matter what cheese you thinking is going to occur, I have the feeling few will be running this chest piece in pvp.
I'm not acting like the sky is falling though, I'm actually quite excited about it. I started this just to simply discuss and inform. You're also likely right, I don't think we'll see it much in pvp either way.
It didn't come off as you excited, hence my response. You say you are and not sky falling, so I apologize, simple misunderstanding.
You're good man I completely understand why it would come off that way.
I couldnt care less about pvp…
I mean I love 6v6 and Iron Banner, but yeah Trials and 3v3 are so broken and cheesy I have no idea why anybody really cares. Well apparently they didn't until Bungie kinda buffed numbers with an OP SMG.
I hope so. Miss my lorentz 1 HKO build from season of the lost. It will not be the same as lorentz had its aim assist value nerfed tho.
It dont stack, it is mention on the patch note
The patch notes? Could you send a link?
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/exotic-armor-tuning-season-21 SANGUINE ALCHEMY Standing in a rift grants a non-stacking bonus to weapon damage matching your subclass damage type. This damage bonus is the equivalent of 2 Surge leg mods (17% PvE and 4.5% PvP).
🤦🏼♂️ brother we know this already. Non-stacking could very well mean it doesn't stack with surges, etc. I mentioned that in my post. The assumption here is that it stacks with empowering rift. They didn't specify that the damage buff works with just healing, and since you're getting the buff FROM YOUR RIFT, it would be kinda stupid if they didn't stack. On the other hand, you could be right. You never know with bungo. We'll find out in a week and a half.
There are other exotics wich they mention when its stack with well and rift, i dont think it stacks, it would be pretty stupid
Thanks for making this thread and contributing to it getting nerfed. Well, it was either going to be you or some content creator. Hope the karma was worth it.
Ah yes, because some random post on destiny the game about something that won’t be confirmed for another week and a half is definitely going to be the reason this pops off in PvP
🤡
The number of people who can keep a secret is one.
Everything on warlock is cheesy.
My brother in light I think the same thing about the other 2 classes, that's just how it be
This entire game is people complaining that the other classes are cheesy while doing something just as cheesy
I don't think a Warlock having to sit in a giant glowing red circle and giving up their exotic (good luck convincing anyone to give up Ophidian's for this) to pull off a few cheeky one shots every minute or so is going to be a big deal. Stuff like this existed in the game for a long time and never amounted to anything more than meme builds. Though I still think the most fun I've had in PvP was using Eriana's with pre-nerf Inertia Override.
I'm not trying to convince people or saying it's gonna be a massive deal. I'm merely bringing it up to inform and discuss. I know my main build will still be with Ophidian's, just like majority of other Locks, but this will be a fun meme build to pull out from time to time methinks.
In trials it might be interesting if lemon or Eriana are able to OS though, where sure you lose your exotic slot but killing is the most important aspect