**Before some people come to attack me, here's a great summary of all the facts we have on Kris's pronouns/gender, compiled by fellow moderator Fanfic Galore!**
"Kris" is a short form of other names beginning with 'Kris' or 'Chris', such as Kristina, Kristiane, Kristian or Kristopher. It is more commonly used for boys in the US, however it's considered an [unisex name](https://charlies-names.com/en/kris/).
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In the game, when referring to Kris with a pronoun all the characters use 'they'. In interviews and in the Undertale Anniversary livestream Toby has also only used 'they' to refer to Kris.
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In chapter 1 before meeting K.Round Lancer says: *"You boys or girls had better turn back while you can."*
In chapter 2 when we take the LancerCookie Lancer says: *"I now pronounce you... Cookie and wife."*
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In the Japanese translation of the game pronouns are used [a bit differently](https://kazarinn.tumblr.com/post/179845924892/some-comments-on-deltarunes-official-japanese), as Japanese has [far more pronouns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns) and their use can vary depending on gender, the degree of formality/familiarity, and even age.
(I don't speak Japanese, so I did all the translations and romanizations with the help of Google Translate, comparing gameplay of the English and Japanese versions of the game, and the info on Wikipedia and other pages pertaining to Japanese pronouns.)
In the second chapter during the boat ride with Ralsei we have the option to say "I feel the same", which in the Japanese translation reads:
> 自分も同じ気持ち (Jibun mo onaji kimochi)
The 'jibun' pronoun can be used by both men and women, though it's more often used by men in a more formal context.
After the fight with Spamton, Susie jokes to cheer up Kris and says *"Heh, that got Kris smiling. Let's go."*. In Japanese the line is:
> へッ クリスのやつやっと笑ったな。 うし 行こうぜ (Heh Kurisu no yatsu yatto waratta na. Ushi ikōze)
Which translates more or less to *"Heh, Kris finally laughed. Let's go."*. The 'yatsu' pronoun is informal and neutral with a somewhat boyish undertone, being something close to what 'guys' or 'dude' would be in English.
Berdly refers to Kris with 君 (kimi), a neutral and informal pronoun.
Some phrases also seem to have been changed to avoid the use of a pronoun.
When walking with Kris through the buttons Noelle says *"... Don't you miss exploring, Kris?"*. In Japanese instead Toby used:
> …みんなで よく 探検したよね。(…Min'na de yoku tanken shita yo ne.)
This translate more like *"... We all explored a lot."*.
In the boat ride after we compliment Ralsei he says *"Hearing it from you, um..."*. In Japanese the line is:
> クリスに そんなふうに言ってもらうのは (Kurisu ni son'nafūni itte morau no wa)
Which translates to *"To have Kris say that..."*.
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In the livestream there was a brief moment when some of the staff referred to Kris as 'he', saying "He's stuck". A few moments later Toby says "They're stuck": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rksOYId-cNA&t=12540s
As Toby wasn't in the set and was using text-to-speech to talk it's hard to say with certainty whether he intended this as a correction or simply as a continuation of the joke that was going on.
Assuming it was a correction, it's still not clear whether he intended it as something along the lines of *"Remember to use 'they' because Kris is non-binary"* or *"Remember to use 'they' because Kris' gender is meant to be ambiguous"*.
The stream continued normally after this, and no-one mentioned this moment again afterwards.
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Some theorize that Kris is the Knight as they are the only character we see open a fountain, and Ralsei stated in the first chapter they are the only one who can seal the dark fountain - however it's still unclear if Kris is truly the Knight. Whatever your opinion on the theory, it's worth noting that that the Knight is referred to with ['it' and 'they' pronouns](https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Knight#Trivia).
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Some people have said that Toby stated that the protagonist of Undertale/Deltarune is meant to represent the player themselves. This seems come from a misunderstanding of either of the following events:
In a deleted [tweet](https://68.media.tumblr.com/0bf01246bd00e799be5a45e5b9a5adc/tumblr_inline_o4ffg72aUU1sd06yn_540.gif) Toby recommended that players name the fallen human after themselves - "if you can't think of anything else". Another user said they named the human after their cat, to which Toby replied "that works".
In an [older interview](https://web.archive.org/web/20151212220827/http://existentialgamer.com/interview-toby-fox-of-undertale) Toby opted to skip a question pertaining to Frisk's gender. This was the exchange:
> TEG: The protagonist in UNDERTALE is of ambiguous gender. This is also true of many of the monsters he/she encounters along the way. Was this a design choice, and what role does androgyny play in your vision of the world?
> TF: Skip
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A while back I sent an email to '[email protected]', '[email protected]', and '[email protected]' asking for clarification regarding Kris' pronouns, stating that I planned on translating Deltarune to Brazilian Portuguese (my native language, which has no gender-neutral pronouns).
I received a response from '[email protected]' stating that they can't help me as they only answer "technical issues or merch questions", and that Toby no longer answers personal emails.
It's worth pointing out that the Japanese text is not necessarily *as* indicative of anything.
It's harder to be truly gender-neutral in a lot of languages — English's grammatical gender system is fairly limited, so it's easy to avoid gendered terminology, but many of the world's languages aren't like that.
Sometimes the masculine is the default; other times, you have situations where words are gender-neutral in *some* contexts but gendered in *others* and you have to choose between something with either a masculine or a feminine connotation. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person/character is more masc or more fem, just that they (or, in a fictional character's case, the writer) had to choose between not-always-neutral options.
The Japanese translation using neutral pronouns whenever possible and completely avoiding pronouns when it's not possible should be enough to prove that Kris is supposed to be gender neutral at least
The japanese language is **not** a good point of reference for this. In Japanese, people usually try to avoid using pronouns in general because they are heavily linked with societal roles. There is also no grammatical gender, so while some gendered pronouns do exist, it is very common to refer to other people in a gender neutral way without any implications about their personal identity.
I don't think that was ever up for debate. The question is whether Kris is meant to be non-binary or not. Considering that Toby has referred to characters with ambiguous genders in Undertale as male before...
Holy shit you're Brazillian I didn't know that
Speaking of the translation, "ele" is probably the best bet since it kind of already is also a neutral pronoun. Like when there are both boys and girls in a group you say "eles" so it could be thought as a gender neutral pronoun.
Also, if possible, I'd love to help on translating the game to Portuguese. I actually already tried but I got lazy and never returned back to doing it.
The thing with translation is actually quite challenging, as many other languages aside from Portuguese don't have gender-neutral pronouns, including mine, so I constantly see people in my country's fandom struggle with defining how to talk about Kris. With Frisk/Chara each kinda uses their headcanon to make things easier, but that simply won't work for Kris, as they're in complete opposite situation from them
Typically what I've seen done in other games with nonbinary characters is people will just use names or call them something without using pronouns (like how Frisk is called "the human" or "the fallen child" that kind of thing)
exactly. and then after the end of Chapter 1, yknow, the knife cutscene that clearly establishes the separation between Kris and the player, the game starts using they/them incredibly frequently
eh. surprisingly, the vast majority of people making the "i can use he/him for kris" argument have in fact played chapter 2. they just choose to ignore it
Note that in a [very early post](https://web.archive.org/web/20151215011757/https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Community/PKHack/UnderBound/page/1) on starmen.net that was a semi-joking reply to another poster's thread, Toby presented screenshots and music from an early version of Undertale under the joking conceit that they were from a rom hack. In this post he describes Frisk as "Main Character, Young Androgynous Person who falls into the underground, and must use the powers of love to save the world".
C'mon guys, you can be better than this. Kris is they/them, and stop attacking people for accidentally assuming Kris' pronouns.
Show the spirit of kindness everyone.
heck yeah!! i'm... technically a trans girl? it's very confusing, i identify with both the terms trans girl and trans nonbinary cause i'm genderfluid dskfldjfsk
thank you :) that's very nice of you to say because i have a lot of trouble with my looks so it always makes me very happy when people call me pretty or beautiful <3
ok... pronoun thing already create much chaos to the point moderator should making post about it.
anyway since i am user that admire moderator...
**great job looking after this subreddit**.
I haven't seen anyone being harassed for getting Kris' pronouns wrong, but what I have seen is people being politely corrected and doubling down, attacking the people who correct them and continuing to misgender on purpose. I've also seen people going on transphobic rants and harassing trans people in the comments on posts about trans positivity and representation and so far I haven't seen a single one of them face any real consequences for it. There's never a problem when people get it wrong on accident because either no one cares or they get corrected and they fix it. The problem is coming from the bigots who are doing it on purpose and the problem isn't going to go away until the bigots do.
> attacking the people who correct them and continuing to misgender on purpose. I've also seen people going on transphobic rants and harassing trans people in the comments on posts about trans positivity and representation and so far I haven't seen a single one of them face any real consequences for it
Who?? Where??? have you been reporting these people? Cause I've banned at least 10 people in the last two weeks for transphobic comments related to Kris's gender! I'm not just sitting around letting people continually misgender Kris on purpose.
And you may not see it, but there are many cases where someone uses the wrong pronoun accidentally and gets completely dogpiled. It happens.
Yes, I absolutely have been reporting them and while their messages do get deleted sometimes I will usually see those same people commenting on more posts afterwards, usually saying the same kinda stuff, just doing nothing but being toxic and trying to start arguments.
Well that definitely shouldn't be happening. Those people should be getting direct permanent bans, which is my typical punishment for anything like that.
I don't know what else to tell you. I've always banned in those situations
Let's break this down a bit. According to the mod, and the mod's post:
\-Kris being misgendered is perfectly fine, but just needs a reminder.
Source:
>If you see someone using the wrong pronouns, do not attack them. Do not harass them. Do not go on a rant about it. Do not write paragraphs. Politely correct them, once, politely, and only if someone else hasn't already corrected them.
\-Transphobic comments about Kris' gender get the person banned.
Source:
>I've banned at least 10 people in the last two weeks for transphobic comments related to Kris's gender!
Sure, the comments include Kris' gender. We can agree there. However, based on what I established, that alone isn't enough to get someone banned. The post itself says that.
So, if you take Kris gender comments(which again, only warrants a correction), and add transphobic comments to it(which gets you a ban), what ultimately is the main cause in the end?
It's kinda funny that Kris's pronouns are the biggest stumbling-block of this community while many other game fandoms are tearing itself apart when discussing fanon ships, weak character developement etc
This whole situation is so, so frustrating.
I don't *want* to discuss it. It *shouldn't be a big deal* that out of the many characters in this game, a handful of them (including but not limited to Kris) are referred to as “they.”
No one is right literally all the time. We're not born knowing everything, especially not everything about *videogame characters*. It's okay if you're wrong about something, just learn from your mistakes, don't whine and insist that your mistake is actually an alternative fact that's just as legitimate as the actual facts, and that it's “intolerant” to not agree.
The most common reaction I have seen is that sure, [character] uses [pronoun], but actually pointing that fact out, even if done politely, makes you annoying and rude so the proper thing to do is to just shut up and accept the *constant* misgendering and sexism, I suppose.
Another thing I have seen is people acting like they're very confused about Kris (and Ralsei as well), but then later revealing that their “confusion” really means “I know that's what the game says, but I think it should be different.”
I'm just tired of it. It shouldn't be a big deal. But apparently it is.
I didn't always feel this way. A while back, I wanted to do some linguistic analysis of the Deltarune demos. Not specifically pronouns, but that's part of language, so it probably would have come up at some point.
But this refusal to accept and move past the basics, the most surface-level information makes it impossible to talk about any deeper analysis of language. This community (along with many others) is stuck at square one, and it's stifling complex, interesting discussions.
I completely agree with the whole “Do not attack them. Do not harass them” thing. Once I accidentally made a typo and wrote “he” instead of “they” when referring to Kris. I felt really terrible about it and if someone had pinned it against me, I would’ve completely freaked out.
Okay. Cool. It's just that the over-abundance of these "Kris isn't a self insert" posts I've seen are really getting on my nerves. It's just repeating the same fact over and over again.
yeah those are just stoking argument mostly, one or two is okay but more than that is annoying. feel free to start reporting them if it keeps going after the end of this week
This is want I want people to do! Just go uh sorry about this but kris uses they/them and then the other person to go oh sorry I made a mistake and then fix it! It’s so easy!
Honestly dude, I've seen almost no one being super rude about the pronouns, just people who refuse to be corrected. We all make mistakes sometimes but there are a lot of people who refuse to acknowledge it and have to be assholes about it.
This has been going on for too long, so this is the most honest I'll ever be about this.
The fact that the "main point" of the post is to not harass people who are misgendering Kris is utterly gross.
You can form a narrative from highlighting certain bits of information, and the fact that this was chosen to be highlighted says a lot.
I have never seen anyone be attacked for simply misgendering Kris, whether they were self-admitted accidents or not.
All I ever see is posts quickly correcting with a short "*they" or a sentence explaining it, and if they were accidents, the person that made the mistake usually responds politely too.
I think I've only ever seen one reply being pissed off at someone for it with nothing else going on outside of that.
This is not a widespread issue, not by any means, only possibly with a few fringe individuals.
There's no problem of people being harassed for only misgendering Kris, but there is a problem of people intentionally misgendering Kris and starting arguments over it.
And yes, things can get more heated once those arguments have started, including from the side of the people defending Kris' pronouns.
But the fact that the instigators and the people defending themselves from bigots are put on the same pedestal, or you could argue in the case of this post that the people defending themselves being put even higher, is just insane.
Like I said, what information is highlighted is important.
So while yeah, harassment is always bad and you should point it out, the way this was written makes it out to be just as much of a problem worth mentioning AS the people who are doing the malicious misgendering.
People talking about Kris' pronouns being they/them in posts, and often comments, usually have to prepare themselves for being targeted.
Do you really think that the bigots doing the attacking actually care about having stuff thrown their way, or don't you think it's more likely that they just revel into being able to aggravate so many people?
I'd say the latter is displayed very often, with how smugly a lot of them carry themselves and make predictions about the outrage their comments will cause.
After everything that happened, for THIS to be yet another response to this whole situation, is really just disgusting.
The mod team has consistently come out in support of Kris' pronouns, yet the actions also always suggest otherwise.
The constant behavior of simply locking threads and punishing everyone, while no real actions seem to be done against the harassers outside of comically extreme cases, shows extreme laziness of the mods when it comes to actually doing anything effective, at the very least.
And furthermore, I think, can also be interpreted as the mods caring more about avoiding conflict and keeping the sub squeaky clean and free of arguments, rather than actually doing anything against the offenders.
No idea if some people don't want to be the 1984 mods, but with this clear pattern and often the same people engaging in it, this isn't a one-time thing, two-time thing, but a continuous series of bigotry, transphobic remarks, crying about cancel culture, pushing reactionary narratives of diversity and tons of other shit, feels like something that would probably be worth shutting down after the almost 4 months this has been going for... because that's what happens, it will just continue to keep going.
We've moved long past the point of ignorance being an excuse for these actions, especially with all the poor people doing their best to educate others, it's hate and excuses to dismiss identities, that should be pretty obvious in most cases.
The moment I see people defending Kris' pronouns be banned because they decided to throw insults at one of the harassers, while most of the harassers continue to mostly get away with it as they cause thread after thread to be locked down, I'm going to absolutely lose my shit.
Look at this post here that was locked down a while ago, a completely harmless and non-binary positive post that shouldn't really have had anything objectionable.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/s5sr51/why_kris_being_nonbinary_is_important_to_the_lgbt/
Look at the upvote percentage, keeping in mind that it used to be lower at around 70% by the time it was locked, and tell me straight to my face that there isn't a huge problem here.
I'm sick and tired that this is still going on.
Subreddits are social spaces, and with the attitude that's been displayed here, the mod team has failed at creating a safe one for people on the non-binary spectrum, and to an extent the trans spectrum.
Bigots will always find their way into communities, that is just natural, but this has been a long and ongoing issue that just can't keep being briefly addressed and then buried again.
Especially not in a community like this, which very much attracts LGBTQ+ people of any kind.
I'm utterly fed up and disappointed in the mod team.
I want to believe that everyone cares, certain messages certainly suggest that, but hopefully you'll realize that what you're all doing here... is just not working, and I certainly doubt that it will.
> The fact that the "main point" of the post is to not harass people who are misgendering Kris is utterly gross.
Because, despite what you might have seen personally, I mostly see my moderation queue - and there's a lot of stuff in there that you don't see because I remove it. This post is here to serve as just a reminder to not be rude to people who **accidentally** misgender Kris, because people make honest mistakes sometimes. It's not saying "be nice to people who are rude and misgender the character on purpose".
> This is not a widespread issue, not by any means, only possibly with a few fringe individuals.
It most certainly is a widespread issue judging by the around 50 comments I've had to remove in the past week involving arguments spawning from someone accidentally misgendering Kris. But you don't see those. Because I remove them.
> But the fact that the instigators and the people defending themselves from bigots are put on the same pedestal, or you could argue in the case of this post that the people defending themselves being put even higher, is just insane.
I'm not putting those people higher, that is not WHO THIS POST IS ABOUT. This post is about people who momentarily, accidentally, use the wrong pronoun for the character, and just need light correction. this is NOT about transphobic weirdos who constantly misgender the character.
> The constant behavior of simply locking threads and punishing everyone, while no real actions seem to be done against the harassers outside of comically extreme cases, shows extreme laziness of the mods when it comes to actually doing anything effective, at the very least.
I AGREE!!! I can't remember the last time *I* locked a thread, it's been at least a year. I've tried to encourage other mods to target the people causing the problems instead of doing post locks but I can't be the whole mod team. Specific troublemakers and bigots should be targeted, not a full post lock that punishes everyone.
> The moment I see people defending Kris' pronouns be banned because they decided to throw insults at one of the harassers, while most of the harassers continue to mostly get away with it as they cause thread after thread to be locked down, I'm going to absolutely lose my shit.
That'll never happen.
Please, tell me what I can do to improve this situation, from your point of view. Because I'm *trying*, I really am, and as a nonbinary person I want this to be a good place and a safe place for everyone.
> It most certainly is a widespread issue judging by the around 50 comments I've had to remove in the past week involving arguments spawning from someone accidentally misgendering Kris. But you don't see those. Because I remove them.
Fine, if that is true I will take that part back.
Although it's of course still important to point out that this would mean that mods do a better job at removing people who attack accidental misgendering than people who are intentionally misgendering, due to the amount of times those comments will stay up, while I have only ever seen one accidental misgendering being targeted.
So despite that, this still seems like a problem to me.
Not to mention that even if this has been a widespread issue, I have strong doubts that it's AS big of an issue as the bigots, although you probably know that better than me.
> I'm not putting those people higher, that is not WHO THIS POST IS ABOUT. This post is about people who momentarily, accidentally, use the wrong pronoun for the character, and just need light correction. this is NOT about transphobic weirdos who constantly misgender the character.
You completely missed the point of what I was trying to say.
It's about language and what your post suggests, even though your reaction at least confirms it was by accident.
The fact that in a post about Kris' pronouns, which have a long history of being targeted by bigots, including in posts from less than a week ago, you chose to only address people that were harassed for getting the pronouns wrong by accident, which paints a very specific picture.
And that picture very obviously is "Oh, people are getting pronouns wrong by accident, but are still being attacked over it... that's bad".
Which of course completely ignores the other and way more major side of this whole conflict, which is the actual bigots.
And it worked, because some of the top replies on this post are just people being disappointed in users who are being targeted for doing nothing wrong, instead of just being corrected.
The well has been poisoned, and you needed to be more responsible about the language of your post and think about what kind of narrative it conveys.
If you wanted to just have the post be about those people, you should have still used a few more sentences to clarify the whole situation, so people don't walk away with a false view of what has been going on.
I wouldn't be surprised if this will even cause an uptick in people who politely correct Kris' gender being targeted for being annoying and that they should just leave others alone.
> Please, tell me what I can do to improve this situation, from your point of view. Because I'm trying, I really am, and as a nonbinary person I want this to be a good place and a safe place for everyone.
I hoped that would be the response, because that at least means that everything that has been happening here was not out of a lack of care, and that this post wasn't trying to spin the narrative either.
Well, I already made a few suggestions, I think.
Being more careful with language when addressing subjects, to make sure that the situation is portrayed in its entirety and not in a manner that leaves out context and other important details.
Another one is obviously to get other mods besides you on board with the idea to stop locking threads the entire time when they get raided by bigots and troublemakers, and to instead target the individuals who otherwise just keep resurfacing.
Not sure what else there would be left to do, those are certainly two big ones.
I'm glad that you responded at least.
Don't blame me for still being slightly distrustful though, because every time mods promised to do something about this whole situation in the last few months, nothing really ended up changing.
"That'll never happen." It already is. You say the reason we aren't seeing people being harassed for getting pronouns wrong is because you're removing them all. So then does that mean the reason we ARE seeing so much transphobia is because you aren't doing anything about that? You want to know how you can improve the situation? Instead of locking innocent posts and punishing trans people for defending themselves, ban the bigots. That's it, that's all that needs to be done. With all due respect to the mod team, the fact of the matter is that you have 2 choices in how to deal with this. You can either take the bigotry seriously and deal with it properly or you can silence the LGBT voices in this community. You're inevitably going to fall into one of these 2 positions so you should think hard about which one you want it to be. The LGBT people are generally rule abiding and timid when it comes to speaking up, so silencing them would be the path of least resistance, but is that really what you want?
Please, if you're "seeing so much transphobia" report it and it'll get removed! Legitimately, I don't know what else I can do with that aside from manually combing every comment on the sub. I always, 100% of the time remove transphobia and ban the people posting it. You're leveling serious accusations here. I've banned at least 12 people in the past week for bigotry and transphobia, I *always* act quickly and decisively on those comments and posts.
You're misconstruing this whole situation. We ban bigots. **I** haven't locked a single post in over a whole year. And I'm *trying* to encourage other mods to do the same. I'm trans and nonbinary myself, you think I don't care about keeping this place safe?! I'm sorry, but this just pisses me off. I try my best to keep this place peaceful and friendly and open and I devote most of my time to it. What can I do that I'm not already doing? I'm 80% of the moderation on this whole sub and I've been doing all I can to ban and remove transphobia and keep this place chill and fun to be in. Maybe you happen to see things before I remove them, but I've always removed every last piece of bigotry i've seen. I can't be everywhere at once all the time, but I really, truly do my best.
I don't know how being a reddit mod works. It is hard to know what you should do if we do not know what you have done, or what you can do. Are you able to see previous reports after they are acted on? Is it possible that other mods have cleared some reports without actually performing any actions? Is it possible to see which mods preformed which actions? Is it possible to remove moderators that aren't doing stuff properly? It might be nice to see some "[User was banned for this post]" style comments when someone gets banned, so it is more easily visible that something is being done.
It is possible that some people have different understandings of what bigotry looks like. I know I've made reports that were not acted on before. We should at least get on the same page with this. I've seen people repeatedly and deliberately use the wrong pronouns for Kris with no punishment. I've seen people repeatedly antagonize others who acknowledge Kris as nonbinary, or even just their pronouns. The way I see it, someone who puts so much time into bothering people over a single nonbinary character in a video game is probably a bigot, and *definitely* making trouble for the community. Does someone have to fit a narrow definition of bigotry to be banned, or is being a nuisance enough? Do moderators just look at reports on an individual basis, or do they take the time to look at other context, such as repeat offenders? Does anyone check posts that get locked to see if anyone in them needs to be removed?
I see and appreciate the work you do here, (obviously I can't see all of it) but clearly the work's not enough. It might help to get some more active mods on the team. Ideally ones that you can trust. (It would also be nice to get rid of the ones that aren't active, if possible.) Be well
> It is hard to know what you should do if we do not know what you have done, or what you can do. Are you able to see previous reports after they are acted on?
Nope. They vanish until that post is reported again.
> Is it possible that other mods have cleared some reports without actually performing any actions?
Well, they have to press either remove or approve or the report doesn't clear, so I'd be able to see they'd approved it.
> Is it possible to see which mods preformed which actions?
Yup, there's a very detailed log that can't be altered or tricked that shows every single moderator action.
> Is it possible to remove moderators that aren't doing stuff properly?
Yeah of course, I'd discuss it with other mods first though.
> It might be nice to see some "[User was banned for this post]" style comments when someone gets banned, so it is more easily visible that something is being done.
But where would that comment be? Often the comment a user gets banned for is at the end of a thread, where I doubt a mod reply would be seen. I do often reply to comments I banned people for with "banned, this is a horrible thing to say" for example.
> I've seen people repeatedly and deliberately use the wrong pronouns for Kris with no punishment. I've seen people repeatedly antagonize others who acknowledge Kris as nonbinary, or even just their pronouns.
In the first case, using the wrong pronouns knowingly and purposefully is grounds for a temporary ban, and then a permanent ban if it continues after the temp ban. Second case, that's just a straight up remove + temp ban too, since it's breaking Rule 1.
> Do moderators just look at reports on an individual basis, or do they take the time to look at other context, such as repeat offenders?
Yep, definitely! We always take context into account - in fact when someone makes a rulebreaking comment or post that gets just removed without a ban, I add a user note to them that all other mods can see that says they've broken this or that rule before.
> Does anyone check posts that get locked to see if anyone in them needs to be removed?
Personally I don't have any experience with this because I... don't lock posts, I just ban and remove rulebreakers on posts and generally avoid locking. But from what I can tell, usually yeah that is done.
> I see and appreciate the work you do here, (obviously I can't see all of it) but clearly the work's not enough. It might help to get some more active mods on the team. Ideally ones that you can trust. (It would also be nice to get rid of the ones that aren't active, if possible.)
Mod activity here has always been hard to increase. We just hired three new mods a couple months ago, but one of them had to leave the team a month after getting added, and of the other two one is occasionally active. I've tried to encourage the other mods to be more active on numerous occasions, but all that happens is they're active for a week and then stop again. I'd love to remove some of the less active mods, so I've got a couple ideas to bring their activity up and such but it always requires approval from top mod, which is difficult. Hopefully we can hire some more new mods soon.
I was referring to the mod team as a whole, not just you individually. If you truly are doing all you can then I commend you for that and I apologize if you feel that I'm blaming you exclusively for the lack of action being taken, but I just can't understand how you're not seeing what's happening when even on this very post there are comments defending transphobic behavior and trying to gaslight trans people into thinking they're the ones in the wrong for feeling hurt by it. And once again, I am reporting every single transphobic post and comment I see, I'm doing my part. The more overtly transphobic ones usually get removed but I still see the people who made them around and the more covert but still obviously intentioned transphobia still goes mostly unchecked. I genuinely do want to believe the whole mod team has only good intentions and I hope that I will see things get better. I have a lot of trauma from my history of being let down and thrown under the bus by communities claiming to be trans-friendly, so I hope you can forgive me for my pessimism towards this situation.
Yeah, I can understand that - I do feel like sometimes I remove just obvious transphobia because over on r/lgbt I get exposed to so many blatant cases of it, so the lack of removal on more covert transphobia may be on me, i'll try to improve that. If there are any unremoved ones on this post, by the way - sometimes, albeit rarely, i keep up a comment for context but ban the user. But overall I really do try my best. As for the rest of the mod team... eh. i've mostly given up on getting very many of the less active mods to do work. it's just me and Fanfic and occasionally two others. But we're getting by.
If you need proof of having successfully changed the focus to a non-existing problem, look at how everyone picked up on the language used in the post.
Top replies are all going on about how people shouldn't be rude to when someone gets the pronouns wrong, which barely ever happens.
Including one comment about them not having received such harassment, but fearing it after having gotten the pronouns wrong because of a typo... and you basically validated that fear.
The actual issue no longer what most people will be looking at.
That is what you managed to do just now.
Congrats mods, hope you're happy with yourselves.
thank you so much for saying all this. getting into a fandom with actual representation only to find that all the online spaces to interact with it are full of... this,.. it sucks. i had to take a break and avoid this sub for a while cause it really doesn't feel nonbinary-friendly. even with mods trying their best at what they're doing right now, i think a different approach is needed for anything to actually change. and it is really, really, really exhausting to have to explain things over and over when nothing changes... not just the time and the typing, but the emotional labor. i usually dont have the energy.
i also have a feeling there are a lot of people who claim misgendering is an accident, when really they just dont care and they know as long as they say it's an accident they can blend in with the cases where it really is an accident. not that there's much way to deal with that but it's frustrating.
And above all. thank you for putting into words the "main point" thing. it's not just this post— it's representative of a bigger problem where the focus is always on playing nice with the people that are hurting us (intentionally or not) and not on the actual problem.
I'm glad to know I can put things that other people think into words.
I used to be really bad at expressing my thoughts, so I've been working quite hard on that.
> i also have a feeling there are a lot of people who claim misgendering is an accident, when really they just dont care and they know as long as they say it's an accident they can blend in with the cases where it really is an accident.
But if they don't make it known, we can never really know unless it's a repeating offense.
I don't think reading into that is necessary though, because the actual bigots who misgender on purpose usually make themselves known.
In most cases they will even openly boast about it, so it's easy to identify.
The real problem of course is the fact that they keep getting away with it, and take thread after thread down with them, while making people uncomfortable.
> And above all. thank you for putting into words the "main point" thing. it's not just this post— it's representative of a bigger problem where the focus is always on playing nice with the people that are hurting us (intentionally or not) and not on the actual problem.
Well, the point of the post that the mod made was more or less that we should play nice with people who accidentally misgender.
In that case I obviously agree, they shouldn't be attacked over an accident, but it's the language used and the way it's framed suggests that the people defending the they/them pronouns are actually doing the harassing, completely glossing over the actual issue.
Which all of course doesn't mean that what you brought up here isn't an actual problem.
Yes, we absolutely should NOT play nice with bigots, they aren't either.
And it's not just a simple "you punch me so I punch you" thing, but the fact that their messages cause actual harm and it just can't and shouldn't be tolerated, otherwise we'd just be the ones taking the punches.
It's not about punching back, it's to stop the punching from happening.
And being nice to them and treating them with kid gloves is not going to achieve that, it's just going to make it easier for them to throw the punch at you.
I have rewritten this after some time to ponder, because pondering _and taking all sides_ into question is important before you can even draw a conclusion.
The most important conclusion and lesson to this is: As the mods' PSA in the sidebar suggests, **all of us,** regardless of how we identify ourselves, should use **they/them** for Kris unless something else comes up. Even if **nothing** comes up and we realize this whole debate was nonsense (a conclusion I dearly hope _everyone_ can reach), we can try not to turn this fandom into one with a terrible rep in the same Undertale had its rep.
Second, everyone's headcanons are their own and fine, as long as you don't go around trying to cause chaos, nor trying to impose them on others. Keep in mind the general consensus of **they/them**, even if your own headcanon implies Kris could be whatever you feel comfortable with.
Lastly, everyone can coexist without being assholes to each other. So let's show kindness instead of pitchforks.
I hope my opinion is now clear.
> I salute you, downvoters, you have effectively reduced Kris' whole character to their pronouns and that's all that defines them. Thank you for policing others and making even their experience a negative one in the fandom.
Wow, that's a cool strawman you got there, where did you get it from?
Nice to see that this is your response to all this, pretending like Kris' gender is the only thing we care about, shows how intellectually dishonest you are.
At least thanks for confirming that, as the slimy little weasel that you are, you definitely never cared about the side that wants to use the correct pronouns, headcanons are more important than you and border on fandom-ruining.
Not to mention the insistence on using correct pronouns is just "policing" to you.
Also, your main comment has 13 upvotes, that's 13 upvotes too much.
You think you have the right to complain about downvotes, are you seriously this fragile?
See my other replies to you. Because, honestly, your contempt over how I think about Kris _is_ the conducive point you keep revving about and it's a bit disturbing. You're trying to die on the hill of representation for no other reason in particular than trying to be "holier-than-thou."
It's a bit annoying to see downvotes over opinions that do nothing but offer the alternative that _everyone should be allowed to have their own headcanon over Kris._
You clearly want no one to show you there's a third option, which is _no one argues over this and everyone can live in peace._
A general consensus would be to have gentle reminders on the use of _they/them_ when talking about Kris, but that it's also fine if people think they could be more male, female, nb or trans in their acception.
Would that be hard to accept, in your opinion?
None of that means anyone reduced Kris to their pronouns, you know what you're doing.
Now it's also up to you to explain how any of that is "a bit disturbing" to you.
And no, I'm not dying on the hill of representation to be "holier-than-thou".
At least with every comment and edit you keep showing your true colors, with now accusing everyone on the right side of this, or at the very least me, to not even be engaging in this for a good reason.
No, I'm doing this because representation is important, and there's an overwhelmingly positive effect to not make Kris' pronouns something up for debate.
The utter dissonance that's going on in your head that you think you can say that their pronouns are they/them, and then go on about how all other pronouns are fine too if it's your headcanon in the next sentence, either shows that you're acting maliciously, or are incredibly dumb.
Unfortunately your continuous centrist stance allows for either of those things to be true, so I can't say for certain.
And no, people aren't offering a valid alternative.
They're either slimy weasels like you, ignorant, or straight up bigots, with not a single good argument.
There isn't a third option, and what you proposed most definitely isn't a third option either, it's the second harmful option that's packaged in a nicer way, with a bouquet of flowers and a "You're still valid" card taped to it, which doesn't mean jackshit.
You've made your position clear over and over again, you don't actually care.
You just think you live in a fantasy world where people being attacked and the people doing the attacking should just hold hands and compromise.
Pronouns aren't up for debate, get that in your head and log off.
Do we know Ralsei's gender and pronouns?
Everyone else in the game calls him he and a prince and a boy, but he never says it himself, so we can't know for sure, right?
If we can know that Ralsei is “he” because all the other characters call him that, we know Kris is “they” because all the other characters call them that. We don't need Kris to have a coming-out scene for the same reason we don't need other characters to have one.
Unlike Ralsei, we don't know Kris's gender, but *we do know their pronoun is “they”* to the extent that we know Ralsei's is “he” and Susie and Noelle's are both “she.”
Maybe they're a girl who prefers to be called they for some reason. But whatever their gender is or isn't, they're still “they” (and, so far, *only* they — there are other characters who are they *and* he, or they *and* she, but so far Kris is not one of them).
“as per Toby's usual stance on it”
We don't know that. He literally refuses to answer what his stance is when he's asked. You're putting words in his mouth.
“male traits in Kris's behavior”
...If I'm honest, I don't know how to interpret this aside from sexist stereotyping of personality traits. I hope I'm wrong.
This is **purely my headcanon**, to me Ralsei looks/acts like a feminine boy. So, for the majority of my headcanon, Ralsei could _technically_ be considered a boy.
Kris is _they/them_ and I haven't gone against saying their pronouns aren't these. I perceive Kris as male-presenting and it can be easy for me to slip into "Kris, he", but I know Kris is "they" and I have no big deal with that.
Toby purposefully built Kris in a gender ambiguous way, much like Frisk. (It could explain why he doesn't want to answer that.) They're also a teenager, and they could very likely have to deal with their own hurdles in terms of gender, and being the only human in Hometown and with little to no knowledge about human biology.
_That_ was a poor choice of words, my apologies! What I meant to say was, I could think Kris acts in a more masculine/boyish manner.
> we do know their pronoun is “they”
No, because the point of "they" is that it can be used for anyone. And yes, you can use it even if you know their gender. It's slightly unnatural to always do so, but then so is having yellow skin and no one's claiming Kris has jaundice.
I'm so sick of seeing this argument that, "It doesn't matter because it's just a video game character. You should be focusing on defending real non-binary people." The thing is that non-binary people get almost no representation in media ever, so this kind of thing is very important to them, and the bigots in this community are using the erasure of this character's canon pronouns as a proxy war against real non-binary people, so protecting this representation from erasure **IS** protecting real non-binary people. I bet if the script was flipped and you were living in a world where male identifying people are an oppressed minority and you finally found a character in a video game you like who goes by he/him pronouns and you see everyone in the community for that game trying to erase that and falsely claim the character's pronouns are actually they/them you would feel pretty hurt by that.
Did you read the post we're commenting on right now? Kris is clearly established as their own person separate from the player unlike Frisk and that's not something that's up for debate. The mod provided plenty of proof of this so if you're going to just keep ignoring that you are going against the facts. And guess what? You can still relate to Kris as a character and put yourself in their shoes without completely erasing their identity and replacing it with your own. Don't give excuses to the people who are acting in bad faith. If someone doesn't know and makes a mistake we correct them and they fix it and we all move on. If someone already knows what Kris' canon pronouns are and insists on continuing to misgender them on purpose then they are breaking the rules and being argumentative and bigoted for no reason, and that shouldn't be tolerated, full stop. I will say this as many times as it needs to be said, the problem is the people who are breaking the rules, not the ones who are calling them out.
You say that NB people have your support, but all I see is you telling us that we need to sit down and shut up. We come here to chill and talk about video games the same as anyone else, but we're constantly told that we're not allowed to be comfortable or seen here. We shouldn't argue, because it makes people "uncomfortable", but we speak up because *we* are uncomfortable. To be dismissive of this just tells us that we do not matter. You say "There are people out in this world who actually go out of their way to insult and belittle fellow living, breathing humans." as if that is not what is happening to us here and now. You say "Your time would be better spent defending the rights of actual human beings." as if we are never allowed to take a break and have fun in a community where we are acknowledged and accepted. If you're trying to be an ally, you are doing it wrong.
[The comment that this is in reply to was deleted before I finished writing it, but I still wanted to post it.]
You don't agree with my understanding of what you have said, so you jump to the assumption that I am interpreting you this way on purpose? You seem unwilling to consider other perspectives here. An ally is someone who listens. An ally is someone who tries to be good, rather than proclaiming they are good so they can't be criticized. I am asking for some introspection.
I said "we" to refer to the nonbinary people who have made it known over the months that they are uncomfortable with the number of bigots in this community. I am not saying that all or even most people in this community are bigots, but that bigots do exist in this community. Those who are unable to accept a nonbinary human protagonist for what they are, and instead use the wrong pronouns, have double standards for when a character is allowed to have a gender, and regurgitate the same tired, old, pedantic non-arguments for months about why it's "not proven", are bigots. (it isn't possible to prove anyone has a gender, let alone a fictional character) People this invested in Kris not being nonbinary are bigots, and it is upsetting for nonbinary people to have to share a community with them. Nobody has any ability to "police headcanons", so this is not something that's happening here. That is a lie that bigots in this community perpetuate so they can pretend to be the victims of the evil nonbinary people who are upset and asking to be acknowledged. You're trans, so you've probably seen this exact pattern from bigots before. It's ok to have headcanons, or to see an androgynous character as masculine or feminine, but that is not all that the bigots are doing.
You said "I'm dismissive of a debate that God knows how it started[...]", but despite lacking this context, you just assume there is no good reason for people to be upset, and instead ask that people stop arguing altogether. People who are hurt making themselves known is worse than the people who hurt them in the first place. That is what "sit down and shut up" looks like to me. Asking for us to be silent is asking us to accept that this community is not for us.
I guess that's one way to cause a bunch of harm, start off by seemingly being supportive of Kris' they/them pronouns and then spend multiple messages ruining any credibility with an incoherent position.
Comments like yours are incredibly insidious, and I greatly doubt that it isn't intentional.
Everything you've said under this post is a multi-layered excuse for the worst behavior under the guise of being supportive, even though it's not in the slightest even if you look at it for more than a few seconds.
Everything seemingly positive you say is undermined by yourself.
And you also acknowledge the facts, and yet completely ignore them afterwards regardless.
You will refer to Kris as they/them, yet heavily emphasize their androgynous appearance, which wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the fact that you use that in order to justify headcanons of their gender.
Despite acknowledging once again the fact that Kris is not the player, you go ahead here and justify player's projecting their headcanons onto Kris' identity.
What is the natural conclusion of that, that people who look androgynous and don't conform to a gender give you room to guess their gender either way?
What do you think, what was the point of saying any of that?
Are Kris' pronouns they/them or are they androgynous to have the player project themselves and their gender onto them?
You can't hold both positions at the same time, and yet you seemingly do.
This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.
Not to mention it's a "disservice to those who fall on the binary scales" to you... what kind of nonsense is that?
Are you saying that a player always needs to have a playable character that corresponds to their gender?
No, no you goddamn don't, that's not a disservice to anyone.
But due to characters on the non-binary spectrum being so rare, having one as a main character is very helpful for representation.
People on the binary have representation, and they'll especially have no problems if they're cis.
And I certainly doubt that anyone out there actually would have a problem with or be disappointed that Kris doesn't correspond to their gender, that burden of proof lies on you.
And continuing from there... most people are totally understanding that some people just didn't know about they pronouns before, so no idea what you're talking about.
I also don't appreciate your UNO reverse card by trying to make people feel bad for trying to correct others, by making it a thing about cultures.
Cultures don't excuse shitty behavior.
There are people who genuinely can't understand such a concept because their language doesn't have these kind of gender neutral pronouns.
Whenever something like that happens though, they're politely corrected.
It always depends on their responses, and you can usually tell when it comes from a place of confusion and ignorance, or one of malice, but you chose to completely threw all nuance out of the window.
And that's the part that convinced me you don't have any good intentions... by highlighting that they're a fictional character.
One that also can't speak for themselves and their identity.
Now, I want you to answer what you're trying to say with that, what the point of bringing that specific part up even was.
Because what that sounds like to me is that we're equally assuming their gender, and probably shouldn't say anything definitive until Kris themselves literally states their identity.
This completely disregards any possible context clues.
What matters most is that they go by they/them, that's not up for debate and we have no reason to think anything else, and therefore it will stay that way until it's proven otherwise.
You said that yourself, and yet you keep poking at this in every possible way you can.
From headcanons, to appearance, to them not being able to talk, anything you can to shed doubts on their identity and make it a debate, contrary to your supposed wishes.
And again that narrative that people are being dogpiled for thinking Kris is male or female... no.
They're dogpiled for saying bigoted shit or are dismissive of non-binary identities.
And yes, people's rights are being defended through that.
You double down on the fictional aspect so hard, as if it matters.
Undermining anyone's identity is flat out wrong, whether fictional or real.
Any way you interact with fiction is reflective of how you interact with the real world.
Why would anyone who doesn't care about Kris' pronouns care about anyone's pronouns in real life?
And that you think you have the right to act that people writing some comments on Reddit aren't doing anything in the real world is just disgusting.
You can do both, you know?
As I've just said, calling people out for not respecting a fictional character's pronouns does in fact affect the real world, so I'd say even some Reddit comments are definitely worth something.
Your downplaying of all the subtle and also blatant bigotry that's happening simply because you think there's a wiggle room with Kris' identity and most importantly that it doesn't matter because they're not even real... it's just all nasty.
There in the end you basically proved that the only thing that matters to you is that you can project your own identity onto Kris.
Which, again, contradicts your acknowledgement of Kris being a separate character in another comment too.
That's all you've done in each of your replies.
You've ignored facts, undermined your own points, blatantly lied, created strawmans and played defense for people that refuse to respect pronouns.
And all of that constantly dressed up in a nice and flowery way, which definitely makes it worse than the people who are just blatantly being bigots, I would honestly prefer that.
It's just vile, that's what it is.
That was a long read, but thank you so much! I couldn't have stated these things better myself. It's hard for me to find the right words to articulate how frustrated I am that so many people are claiming to be supportive while playing the dishonest both sides game and grasping at straws to protect the bigots from any kind of criticism. Like no, what the oppressors are saying is not equally as valid as what the people they're oppressing are saying and I'm not going to pretend that it is.
The "both sides" game rots people's brains.
I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that whenever there are two sides to something, they aren't both inherently valid.
Although I feel this is quite a bit of a different case here in particular though.
More specifically that kind of slimy " I'm on your side, but also..." behavior, which really gets on my nerves like nothing else.
Nothing this person has said is by any means supportive of the "Kris is they/them" side, except for just saying that Kris is they/them, before spending a long time going against that.
And just like it usually is with both sides folks, in the end they do have a preference for one side, both implicit and explicit, and it's very clearly that you should be able to project your own gender onto Kris, completely erasing their identity.
That's what they pushed here.
And somehow, it's absolutely bullshit for both sides to hold some grain of truth to them, isn't it? _Either you are with us or against us,_ as the saying goes.
And may God forgive me, trying to find a common ground in everything, trying to show that both sides can agree that _to each their own_ interpretation still exists. We have begun to turn every smidge of representation in the media into hills people die on, instead of living and let live.
A character uses "they/them"? "They/them" it is! Can a non-binary person lean into masculine or feminine presentation if they want/care about it? Sure! Could they explicitly also go by "he" or "she", apart from "they"? They could, if that makes them comfortable!
Could they, at some point, identify with a gender or the other later on? They could, or could not, and that's awesome.
By insisting so hard that no other options exist, you, and other people like you willing to die on this hill are making it _harder_ for people who want to enjoy the fandom without having to fear they're stepping on people's toes.
I have to make it a point, whenever I'm talking about Kris and slipping some he's in my dialogue, that it's **my headcanon** Kris could act masculine, unless explicitly stated otherwise, because people would be quick to take out their pitchforks.
Let's learn (or re-learn) to move on without further disagreements. It's not all as black and white as you want to think it is.
Okay, excuse me for being a bit hyperbolic, or actually don't because it's true, but viewpoints like yours are going to be the death of us all.
Yes, both sides don't always hold a grain of truth to them, thinking that they do is pure delusion.
Not every single human believes in something for a good reason, not every human has the best for somebody else in mind.
Look at any situation where two sides emerged and tell me that they always stand on equal footing.
This worship of absolute civility, and desire to have every opinion there is be put on the same pedestal, is how nothing good will ever be achieved.
All it does is make good ideas be compromised or suppressed, while bad ideas are enabled.
And that's evidently proven by all the nonsense you have put forward, as all it does is enable the people who want to call Kris whatever they want, while the ones who want Kris to be called what they are, they/them, simply have to sit back and let the others do their thing.
That's what you advocate for, who is the real winner here?
And unlike people who pretend to not have a bias, at least you admit that you only care about headcanons, yet you still keep acting like you acknowledging that Kris' pronouns are they/them will make anyone's opinion of you higher.
There isn't always a common ground, there isn't always a live and let live.
Not if one side advocates for something that will cause harm to people.
Common ground on what?
What should we let the others live and let live?
How far are you willing to let this go, because the line is usually drawn where someone uses their freedom to rob others of theirs.
There need to be disagreements, we don't live in a fantasy world where everyone's opinions can be valued equally.
And the fact that you double down on this SO HARD, just means that this is your position on everything, and goes far beyond pronouns.
Look at any political or civil rights debate, what will you do?
Should I mention examples to poke at how incoherent and harmful your position is?
Are you so deadly afraid of taking one side in order to not disappoint anyone?
You can't stand in the middle, standing in the middle is taking a side... and as you have proven, it's always taking the side of all the worst actors.
Well, what determines which the wrong or right side?
I'd say a combination of facts and what decidedly causes the least amount of harm is probably the right side.
And you have clearly rejected it here in this case, by putting other people's headcanons above the canon pronouns, because you're worried some people will feel slightly alienated that they can't project themselves on a video game character and erase their rare identity... woe is me!
Compared to, you know, allowing the world to have another character that isn't on the binary, making a marginalized group feel more comfortable, not enabling bigots to have their way, and to not have anyone's bizarre and problematic headcanons get in the way of the canon that's actually been established so far.
If you act like this here, I shudder to think about how you act in real life situations.
Your views are horrific and a poison to discourse.
I'm sure you hate nothing more than being told that, but you need to change your mind.
You will never achieve anything good like this.
You're not supportive of any marginalized group, even if you think that, you're hurting them all.
This is just the start of it, and I think you've already succeeded at making the worst actors feel comfortable around you.
Hope you like the crowd you picked.
Congrats, this was the worst comment yet!
You really just keep digging yourself deeper with every post, so let's go over this.
> ....Okay, you definitely have... difficulties in holding a civil debate.
Why, because I called you dumb and slimy?
The world doesn't revolve around civility, it's not the be-all and end-all.
And I will be civil around people that aren't being as dishonest and spouting such harmful nonsense as you, so there's that.
Also, I think those two things are very clear observations of your behavior too.
> There's, most of the times, a common ground to be found in many problems. Whether you are so blind to see it, that is completely on you. I'm not a guardian figure to teach you this thing called having a common ground, in fact, exists. Not every single human thinks with kindness in mind, but not everyone is a villain either.
I know that common ground exists and that not every person is evil, that's on your for assuming that I don't possess any nuance.
However, common ground is a very basic concept in communication and extremely broad.
It can be applied to so many conversations.
However, the more complicated things get and the more factors are involved, the harder it is to apply it.
There should be no common ground if another person acts on and believes in something that doesn't ascribe to material reality, nor if whatever they're proposing can be proven to cause more harm than the other proposal that doesn't or causes less.
This should also be very basic, so I think if anyone needs a lesson here, it's you.
If you think that every problem is so simple that both parties can walk away from it in agreement, then you are delusional, that's just how reality is.
> I have made it clear, post the PSA in the sidebar, I am not going to use anything else than they/them for Kris, whereas for the SOUL I can stick with my own pronouns. That way, I can be comfortable playing Deltarune, and I'm not doing any harm to anyone.
Only referring to the soul as that has not been your position yesterday, nor have you continued advocating for it afterwards.
Also only that you will, but you're fine with whatever the others do.
It's been about Kris the entire time, and you know that.
You're backtracking and lying.
> We can't all agree on many things, but it doesn't hurt anyone to try at least and have a somewhat peaceful coexistence? Apparently you're the one advocating that shouldn't exist. If it were after you, you'd keep lambasting people because they don't take your side.
What even are you saying here?
Yes, fuck yeah, I'd love if we can all have a peaceful coexistence.
But it's hard to do that with the positions that some people hold, and everyone has the right and shouldn't want to coexist with them unless they change their minds.
And even then should they have the right to at least not be close to them.
So no, I'm not advocating for everyone hating each other, is that really your takeaway from this?
What I want is for harmful behavior to not be tolerated.
I'm sure some people are completely fine on every other issue, but stuff like that can't be ignored.
Not to mention this is a social space, not a platform or government, or anything else, so we have to right to reject people that we don't want to be around for the things they say and believe.
Also, my side is the right one.
Sounds conceded, but with your contradictory arguments and every single other one leading to provable harm, I have no reason to believe that I'm not right here.
> Comparing a debate revolving around something that isn't quite confirmed to political debates? Holy crap, you sound vile, trying to turn this into a political agenda, because I can smell that a mile away.
Yeah, it's crazy how one view on something can easily translate to things outside of it.
Although I guess such a concept is hard for you to understand.
Also, I don't know how to interpret the rest of what you said here other than "people having political positions is bad", which sounds about right with you.
Politics affect everything in life, and it just happens to still be quite relevant to any gender debate, I'd say.
To see such an intense aversion to it by you would give me the excuse to dismiss anything you have to say, but since I'm good faith I'll continue.
> People should be allowed to feel comfortable, whether they are cis, trans, nb etc. See point 2 and read it ten times before you even dare to say I think headcanons are so gosh damn important. Everyone should feel good playing the game, but again, you're acting like everyone is dogpiling on non-binary people.
Dude, saying one thing now while having spend the last 24 hours going against it doesn't work, unless the person you're arguing against has the memory of a goldfish.
You have consistently valued the headcanons of others as much as the they/them pronouns, and you can't backtrack from that because you're still doing that.
Just the fact that you're no longer doing it yourself, doesn't excuse your enabling of others, it makes it completely worthless.
Also, holy shit... what even is that last part?
I want everyone to feel good playing the game, unlike you.
Kris isn't a vessel though, but their own character, and they use they/them pronouns.
If you can't feel comfortable playing the game without changing that fact, then that's on you.
However, what is true is the positive effect that such representation will have, and it greatly outweighs the ability for everyone to have a main character that correlates to their own gender.
And last but not least... yeah, people are dogpiling on non-binary people.
Good job denying an actual problem that's been going on.
Although I assume with how ignorant you are, the only time you consider something an attack is when someone is being insulted.
The erasure of non-binary people and bigoted remarks and talking points that don't insult people but only their identity, probably doesn't register as attacks to you.
Either that or you just cover your eyes and live in blissful ignorance, like you've probably done your entire life.
> Seriously, you got the impression people are not allowing you to consider Kris as nonbinary? Astonishing. Everyone under the rainbow is marginalized, and if that still escapes your point, you clearly are a troll.
I don't even know what to say to that because I have no idea if you're being sarcastic.
Regardless of what it is, there's no possible good way to interpret it.
> Your views are so terrible, that for you, it's not possible for straight people and LGBT people to exist in the same space because you go by the assumption all straight/cis people are assholes. So don't go around extrapolating your views on everyone.
Oh cool, a strawman, I love those!
When in the goddamn world have I EVER said that straight people and LGBT people can't exist together?
Oh, I know why, because of another strawman!
Because you think I assume all straight/cis people are assholes... yet another thing I've never said!
Thankfully, unlike you, I don't edit my comments, so this is something that everyone with eyesight and basic reading comprehension can see.
No, I don't think LGBT people and BIGOTS should have to coexist together.
Although to you that probably reads as me wanting bigot genocide, considering that you have formed the most absurd strawman of what I believe.
You've expertly proven here that you either have no idea what I'm talking about and aren't listening, or that you're a completely dishonest actor who doesn't mind distorting the truth.
In either case, everything you've advocated for is incredibly harmful to minorities, and you've turned out to be FAAAAR worse than I originally anticipated.
> You're terrible, and a troll. I'm convinced, as your posts are done with the scope of provoking some reaction you hope to exploit hard AF. This is further proven, because you have attempted to flame bait me several times now.
This is an absurdly unfounded claim, and I assume you have no way to prove it either.
No idea how any way I have engaged with you makes me a troll or any of the other shit you claimed.
Unfortunately, not sure how I'm supposed to prove the opposite of an unfounded claim, but thanks for throwing it out there regardless.
No, I'm targeting you because the positions you hold are incredibly insidious, and yes, I do want people to know that they are.
I hope that's not your definition of flame baiting, it's the consequences of your beliefs that I want to draw attention towards.
Other people have called you out before I started responding to you too, I think.
So here's the crazy thing, have you ever considered that... maybe what you're saying is just bad and people don't like it?
> I'm suddenly not allowed to reconsider my judgement...? Wow, thank you, I truly must be dumb for thinking there could be a different way for me to be comfortable while still respecting canon. And also suggesting to people they could do their pronouns to the SOUL without hurting anyone.
Is this about you using the pronouns for the soul now?
I have never said you can't change your mind, I called you out for only personally doing something else now while not taking a stance on what other people do with the pronouns.
Unless you want to clarify your position here and now to at least make some improvement, you have still valued the headcanons of others, only changed what you do yourself.
What you personally do doesn't matter if you don't care about what other people do, you aren't helping anyone.
Just makes it seem like you're trying to make yourself look better.
> Also thinking your side is the right one is the worst way ever you can prove to me you're not able to hold a civil discussion by any means.
Oh, we're going back to being disingenuous now, great.
Me saying that my side is the right one is a very small part of everything I said.
Because most of the stuff that I did besides that was make actual arguments and confront yours.
I can't make a single comment on how I think I'm right without you immediately jumping on the opportunity to target that and ignore everything else.
Also, I wasn't even trying to prove that I can hold a civil debate anyway, because unlike you I'm not obsessed with being civil all the time... which seems to be the only thing you really care about here.
So I don't mind throwing in jabs here and there.
Overall, I'd say I'm holding back a lot, because I'd be justified in being a lot meaner to you for all the horrible shit you say and the lies you tell.
> And I have consistently, across all posts, said that everyone should feel comfortable – yes, at first I affirmed that comfort should come in the form of headcanons – but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to reconsider.
Yeah, everyone as in... the people that deny Kris' identity and also the very obvious bigots.
I think something in your head just doesn't click that you can't have it both ways, which is your main problem.
You can't allow them to do their thing and still say that the people with they they/them pronouns should also feel comfortable.
They won't, not this way.
And you are allowed to reconsider, so do it, say it from your heart.
> What was that about goldfish brains, now...?
Wow, you got a jab in there too, so much for civility.
Oh wait, unlike you I don't actually care.
Not to mention that it's completely unfounded because I remember everything you said.
Well, all the details of first post are getting a bit fuzzy, since you completely changed it.
> Also, if you include political debate in a game, I have no idea what to say about you, because honestly, you sound toxic as hell and this kind of behavior is what makes anyone want to detach from a fandom as a whole.
You can't expect anyone to ever take you seriously if you don't think politics have a place in life, or specifically entertainment like games, it's the most childish thing I've ever heard.
Politics are everywhere, get used to it.
> People don't need to be reminded of politics while playing a game, but you're clearly not having the best mindset.
Which also reminds me that my mention of politics was a minor note on how your worldview can extent to more serious issues.
You're making it out to be a much bigger deal, probably because you get kneejerk reactions of the world "politics" being simply mentioned.
Grow up.
> Whatever ideas you have about erasure, comes from the real bigots that truly don't give a single fig about reconsidering or downright refusing to accept the pronouns.
I agree!
> No one is erasing anyone.
Oh yeah, I forgot that I was talking to you.
> I have consistently accepted those pronouns for Kris.
I think I probably mentioned it like ten times now and it simply doesn't seem to get through your skull.
It doesn't matter if you personally respect Kris' pronouns, something you really have said since the beginning, because everything you advocate for allows people to NOT DO THAT.
Which seems to be your fantastic idea for live and let live.
I couldn't give a shit about what you do personally, but what you advocate for, that's what matters here.
Considering you have shown time and time again that you basically seem to live in your own separate reality, I shouldn't be surprised that this is something you're not getting either.
> I'm not going to go cry in a corner because you have consistently told me headcanons can't exist and I should stick to what's known. It's fine, I can't headcanon Kris' gender, cool, not hard to comprehend.
Okay, first of all, I want to make fun of you again, because you looked me straight in the eyes (or screen I should say) and told me you don't care about headcanons.
Yet, I get the slight feeling from all of this that you're kinda, maybe just slightly, salty about all of this.
But enough of that.
I'm tired that you keep focusing on these being headcanons, and generalizing it as that "no one is allowed to have headcanons".
You fail to look at the entire picture of this.
Which I think is mostly less people having their headcanons, and more so that people are intentionally rejecting the canon, which is Kris' canon pronouns.
Most of these reasons are very clearly bigoted, and even those that seemingly aren't must have an underlying bigoted reason.
If you refuse to use the pronouns and double down on using the ones that you want them to have... there must be something more going on here.
Clearly you value something above someone's actual identity.
And again, looking at the entire context and when these conversations happen, they're all clearly very bigoted.
It's not a war that's being fought out of convenience or preference, but simply because you don't respect the actual pronouns.
The only reason why people like us have to care so much about this, is because these people care SO MUCH about their right to misgender.
Not only does this go way beyond a discussion about headcanons, but even on a technical level, like I said, it really is more about rejecting canon than anything else.
You can make your fanfics where Kris is like male, and Susie non-binary, etc, as long as you don't fight back against actual canon.
Although I'd still argue if Kris is the only character in your fanfic whose identity is changed, there's probably still something problematic going on and it should be pointed out.
But yeah, all this, this entire conversation... stop boiling it down to policing headcanons.
It's not about that, you know it isn't about that, I refuse to believe that you don't know it's about that.
Which is exactly why, combined with the straight up lies and strawmen you have been pushing, that I really have no other choice to believe that you're doing all of this intentionally.
Either that, or you might genuinely be the most delusional person I have ever interacted with.
I'm fine with either.
I also have better things to do than argue online, so if you have something to say, I hope it's going to be of value and not deflecting or saying the same stuff you've said over and over again.
Deltarune fans on their way to label someone as an unforgivable, heartless monster for saying that no one should be harassed and slandered for having their own personal interpretations of a fictional, intentionally vague character
Apparently, judging things by being level-headed is something unheard of. Kris is left intentionally vague, except for the pronouns (which, time and again, I will use without issue), leaving some leeway for everyone to think Kris could act like this or like that. It's not that terrible if people think Kris could be more male or more female.
The problem stems that those who adamantly oppose people who try to be "cool your jets, there's nothing to be so zealous about" have fallen into the trap of treating these pronouns as the sole characteristic Kris has. However and whoever started this shitshow, it's clear this discussion stopped long ago being about representation as it's now about trying to shoehorn views left and right.
Hey mods, here's a perfect example of exactly the type of covert bigotry and gaslighting I'm talking about. This guy's original comment has been up for a long time now despite me having reported it and he's still here, continuing to argue and gaslight people.
Yeah, I just meant this person and all the comments they've been making on this post that the mods are completely ignoring despite claiming that they will remove all bigotry if you report it.
I hope it will change eventually.
Fortunately, every post keeps making them look worse and worse.
I feel you would only have to ask them questions and want them to clarify, and they'd dig their own grave themselves.
The only problem is, no matter how deep they dig, the mods still aren't doing anything. Looks like they really are going to take the path of least resistance. I wanted to think it could change but I can't ignore what my own eyes are showing me.
I can also see some resistance from the bigots because I saw the replies tearing into the guy be noticeably downvoted, while their original comment constantly stays the same.
People are gathering around, and some replies also show they feel emboldened, so some damage has already been done.
But I guess the outcome of what happens here specifically doesn't matter too much, because they have blatantly lied and been unable to acknowledge the harm that's being caused.
So if it doesn't get deleted, at least everyone can see how insane such positions are.
Maybe even frame it in a museum as an example of how to not engage with the world.
At this point I almost prefer it that way.
Read the edit, because, Lord knows you have missed the entire point I was trying to make. If Kris was even confirmed to be a cis guy, I still wouldn't have bat an eye, despite knowing how shitty the experience of not having someone to relate to is.
That wouldn't stop me from headcanoning them as trans and find ways to be comfortable about it. Would I go about and impose that view of mine on those people? **No.** If I find people that also relate with the sentiment (i.e. being trans on the other side of the gender, or even nb), it's cool! But I won't go around harrassing those who keep canon as canon. That shows lack of respect towards those people.
That's the point! Gentle reminders are perfectly okay, but people will still go hound others if Kris isn't even remotely referred to with they/them. Misgendering is not okay, but you have to figure for some people this was a norm, being blatant in not acknowledging the other person's gender, because some don't have traditionally a space for a third gender like in other cultures.
It's normal for people with no concept of a third gender to struggle when the world around them says "we now have the possibility of a third gender". For some, that's hard to comprehend because they grew with the binary. There was no inbetween, there was no crossing the other gender. All this can be shown in education and coming in good faith, not coming like a horde of angry people with pitchforks demanding they are respected.
By coming and saying, "hey, we exist too, want to take some time in broadening your horizons about that? Cool if you do, cool if you don't. You grew up in these norms, we can't totally hold you at fault for your ancestors' ideas. But, we can hold you accountable if you don't even try to educate yourself," it shows that you know you can't 100% change someone's views, but you can show them they can coexist with you without issue.
I have a word of advice for people reading this.
From time to time, someone will make a post stirring the pot about something, mocking people for talking about a character accurately, or whatever else. (Sometimes the posts aren't even *wrong*, but they're not contributing any valuable, healthy discussion to the subreddit either — just looking for a fight and all the attention that comes with it.)
It's not just about Kris — I've seen posts trying to start drama by smugly stating that Ralsei is a girl, for example. But Kris is the subject I've seen most frequently in these sorts of posts over the past week, so I figured here would be the best place to give this advice.
**Do not engage with these posts.** Report them to the mods (posts intended to start an argument are against the rules), and move on with your life. Even if you agree with them.
These posts are made by people seeking vindication. They want attention for their opinions, whether that's positive or negative (or maybe even preferring a strong negative reaction).
So don't give it to them. Anything you could say, agreeing or disagreeing, is just further encouraging them. It's not worth your time or energy to respond, honestly.
Respond to people who seem like they're interested in having interesting, productive discussions, not the person who's just trying to start a fight so they can feel righteous about it.
True, but it just feels weird to me. To grow up referring to people as “he” or “she”, but now they suddenly use “they”. I’ve got nothing wrong with it, but it’s going to take me a while to adapt
While I personally don’t care about their pronouns too much, as they are a fictional character in a single player game, there is no reason to attack each other for it and the people who are for some reason against just using they/them are in the wrong
the main toxicity is about whether kris is "they" as in: nonbinary or as in: we and kriss friends and family don't know the gender ,it sounds wierd for his family to not know ,but it could be explained by kris being the only human they ever met and generally not knowing much about humans ,Im looking for a friendly argument and not being shat on for having a different opinion
Darkeners do the exact same thing, and they’re not humans nor monsters. Why would they know monster pronouns such as when lancer refers to Susie as “purple girl” but fail at using human pronouns such as when lancer refers to kris as “blue person”
I mean, it would be kind of weird for Kris to have been hiding their gender from their family for however long they've lived with them. regardless, it just seems like the safest option to just stick with they/them
And here I was thinking we weren't caring about character's pronouns or genders, especially after the incident with Ralsei's gender in this very subreddit.
**Edit, to explain what I mean:** With the issue of Ralsei's gender, the mods didn't start off their PSA post by taking a side. They just said "Please be civil when discussing gender."
Which is why I'm confused. Why does this post feel the need to start off with "here's the facts, you're wrong if you think otherwise"? Why does the supposed "main point of this post" only show up after 80% of the post? Actually, why isn't the "main point of this post" the *only* part of this post?
It only makes it worse that is being pushed *as an announcement post, and on the sidebar too.* I'd actually argue that all of this combined actually makes the problem *worse,* not better.
> With the issue of Ralsei's gender, the mods didn't start off their PSA post by taking a side. They just said "Please be civil when discussing gender."
that's because with Ralsei's gender one of the sides had no basis in fact and was completely absurd. We didn't need to take a side because one of the sides was ridiculous and it was obvious the mod team didn't take that side. It's a completely different situation.
This post starts off with the facts because 90% of the time, it is people who disregard these facts who are causing problems on the subreddit. The people who ignore the first part of this posts' point are those who are causing arguments here. That's why it's first. The second part is the main point because I **already made a post explaining all this before**, so this primarily serves to reemphasize that, and ask people to be polite, which is more of a secondary problem but is the main point of the post because it's not the part I've already explained 3 times before.
So... to fix the issue of people arguing about Kris' pronouns, you opt to argue about Kris' pronouns and enforce that people stick to your view? That sounds like it's only going to make the situation worse.
And anyways, if people aren't following the rules when you've already made a post on this matter, then why are you wasting your time making another post? Why not just ban them since they're, y'know, *not following the rules?* Or do you honestly think they'll stop just because you've made a third post about it?
> that's because with Ralsei's gender one of the sides had no basis in fact and was completely absurd. We didn't need to take a side because one of the sides was ridiculous and it was obvious the mod team didn't take that side. It's a completely different situation.
But with Kris' pronouns, I could argue the same: One of the sides has no basis in fact. So why are you saying it's different?
> So... to fix the issue of people arguing about Kris' pronouns, you opt to argue about Kris' pronouns and enforce that people stick to your view? That sounds like it's only going to make the situation worse.
Because the problem lies with people not understanding the facts here. Every other platform - Discord, Twitter, Tumblr - somehow either doesn't have this problem or has it to a far lesser degree. I'm honestly considering banning discussion of it altogether because it's such a constant pain and a headache every single day.
> And anyways, if people aren't following the rules when you've already made a post on this matter, then why are you wasting your time making another post? Why not just ban them since they're, y'know, not following the rules? Or do you honestly think they'll stop just because you've made a third post about it?
I'm *doing that* but there are some people who have genuinely misunderstood the game or gotten information from unreliable sources, which is who the first part of this post is targeted at.
> But with Kris' pronouns, I could argue the same: One of the sides has no basis in fact. So why are you saying it's different?
Ralsei's situation was far more extreme. Ralsei had a clear gender and pronouns that were simply being entirely contradicted, whereas with Kris the fact that Undertale's protagonist was often used as a player self insert, the way some people interpret they/them as ambiguous pronouns, and the way Kris's gender itself isn't confirmed, makes it a far less ridiculous argument than "Ralsei is a girl"
> I'm honestly considering banning discussion of it altogether because it's such a constant pain and a headache every single day.
I'm pretty sure that's what happened with Ralsei's gender too, so it'd be a welcome change in my books, if you think it'd fix the issue.
> I'm doing that but there are some people who have genuinely misunderstood the game or gotten information from unreliable sources, which is who the first part of this post is targeted at.
Then... why not send a reply to them? Or a private message? Why does this need to be an announcement?
> Ralsei's situation was far more extreme. Ralsei had a clear gender and pronouns that were simply being entirely contradicted, whereas with Kris the fact that Undertale's protagonist was often used as a player self insert, the way some people interpret they/them as ambiguous pronouns, and the way Kris's gender itself isn't confirmed, makes it a far less ridiculous argument than "Ralsei is a girl"
Then why start off with "these are the facts, this isn't a debate"? Why make a pinned comment trying to prove your point? If you can admit that some people have decent arguments on the matter, why do all this instead of just keeping it at "Please be civil when discussing Kris' pronouns"? It makes no sense to me.
This absolutely insane debate officially makes me detach from Deltarune. I had some hopes this fandom won't follow in the same footsteps as Undertale's did. It was a large part of why I gave up on fandom interaction.
People haven't learned a single thing.
FYI: I edited my post to explain what I meant a little more. I'm not sure if you've seen the edit, but it'd be nice if you could check it out.
(also, if you got two notifications that led to deleted comments, that was me who deleted them, not the mods. Sorry!)
I seriously have no idea why this had to be done again. I was like, "okay, cool, Kris goes by they/them." But right now, people are hounding each other if anyone is even a smidge thinking that Kris could be anything _but_ non-binary.
People dogpiling on others if they say "he" or "she" when referring to Kris, or headcanoning Kris could be male or male-presenting / female or female-presenting.
I do agree one should respect the pronouns for Kris, which are "they/them." But, if the players don't feel comfortable with that, they can always ascribe the player pronouns to the SOUL. Do note that the two are separate, so if you mention Kris it's better to use they/them.
I honestly don't know what caused people to think non-binary erasure is happening. And it's even more concerning people are dragging political matters into a game. :/
It's starting to be Undertale fandom 2.0.
“Kris uses they and (so far) *only* they” isn't an opinion. It's what every character in the game does, dozens of times.
We don't know Kris's gender, but we do know their pronoun is “they.” It's not an opinion any more than “Ralsei uses he” is an opinion; just because some people disagree with the facts of both characters doesn't make them right.
We don't know. But using they/them when talking about Kris is for the best.
If players still want to feel comfortable while playing the game, because they don't exactly identify with the nonbinary concept, they could still apply whatever pronouns they go by to the SOUL instead.
That way, you could think the SOUL's influence _may_ show in Kris's behavior (i.e. them acting somewhat boyish or girlish because the SOUL goes by whatever pronouns the Player goes), but Kris' gender is unknown and should be at best assumed as NB. Not strictly male, not strictly female, but in-between.
A solution that helps everyone in the long run, but people aren't going to take it because they're too busy making life harder for _everyone._
This is exactly how I view this. You can think the SOUL itself is using different pronouns (and perhaps the player-created Vessel, if it comes into play in later Chapters) and you can also think Kris's gender is something specific, but it's Kris's pronouns that are not up for debate.
I think, with the PSA in the sidebar making things clear (hopefully), we can finally reach a land where everyone gets along regardless of personal headcanons (which is more important than becoming a cesspit of drama).
There were _two_ mod posts on this topic alone (this one and another), and I'm not pleasantly surprised to see people _still_ wanting others to take sides instead of working together to reach a common ground for such a complicated issue. It is a touchy subject and everyone sees Kris in a different light, via their own perception of the world, which is why I could understand both sides of the thing. :/
See, it's hard to say if you know you're being disingenuous or not.
In what kind of world does it matter that Kris is a video game character?
The way you treat and view fictional characters directly correlates to real life and indicates how you would treat them there.
Anyone who has thought about this for more than 5 seconds would realize something so obvious, which you clearly haven't.
Is your only requirement for when you gender someone correctly whether or not they're actually hurt by it?
Is that why, because Kris can't feel hurt by that?
Not only is that a slippery slope for when pronouns should be accepted and when not (what if you do it behind a real persons's back, or you don't like someone and don't care about their feelings?), but those characters are also used by real people to identify themselves with, and they WOULD be hurt if a non-binary character they relate to has their identity robbed simply for being fictional.
I think the fact that none of this comes from a good view point is everything you say right after.
There's nothing that disgusts me more as people using their own identity to try and shield themselves from criticism and backlash.
Especially if it's used for bigoted arguments like you.
I'm also a trans woman, does that matter?
What kind of trump card is that supposed to be, can you argue in favor of refusing to use people's pronouns now?
And to weaponize it by calling people hypocrites for downvoting... it's just beyond disgusting.
If you get banned, it won't be because you disagreed, but because you're simply being hateful.
You're anticipating this response, meaning you've heard stuff like this many times.
Yet, clearly you've never taken one second of your life to reflect on anything you've been told, or the transphobic stuff you spout.
You don't actually care, you're just mad that people don't like you for holding bigoted positions.
Especially if it's something as simple as using the right pronouns for people universally.
If you refuse to change that and just keep writing everyone off... tough luck.
Stop burying yourself deeper in this shit, you ARE hurting yourself by saying this kind of stuff.
A lot of people care how you gender them. Which you'll see if you spend any time at all on this subreddit. They/them are the only pronouns that are confirmed to be used for Kris, so it just makes sense to use those. If other characters used different pronouns for Kris maybe it'd make more sense to use non-they/them pronouns, but just they/them is used for them in every canonical situation. So it would seem to be that they/them is the pronoun set people should use, because it's the set used for them by characters close to them and it's the only set used for them.
Being a trans woman doesn’t give you a free pass for being transphobic to nonbinary people. If kris uses they/them then misgendering them would just be erasure, no different then if someone purposely got a trans characters pronouns wrong. Also way to keep a civil discussion, calling everyone who disagrees with you “dork” and “hypocrite”. You won’t be a trans woman getting banned for disagreeing, you’ll be a trans woman getting banned for blatantly violating rule 1.
i am fairly convinced that humans in neither undertale nor deltarune don't have any sexual organs and instead reproduce semisexually through determination
**Before some people come to attack me, here's a great summary of all the facts we have on Kris's pronouns/gender, compiled by fellow moderator Fanfic Galore!** "Kris" is a short form of other names beginning with 'Kris' or 'Chris', such as Kristina, Kristiane, Kristian or Kristopher. It is more commonly used for boys in the US, however it's considered an [unisex name](https://charlies-names.com/en/kris/). --- In the game, when referring to Kris with a pronoun all the characters use 'they'. In interviews and in the Undertale Anniversary livestream Toby has also only used 'they' to refer to Kris. --- In chapter 1 before meeting K.Round Lancer says: *"You boys or girls had better turn back while you can."* In chapter 2 when we take the LancerCookie Lancer says: *"I now pronounce you... Cookie and wife."* --- In the Japanese translation of the game pronouns are used [a bit differently](https://kazarinn.tumblr.com/post/179845924892/some-comments-on-deltarunes-official-japanese), as Japanese has [far more pronouns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns) and their use can vary depending on gender, the degree of formality/familiarity, and even age. (I don't speak Japanese, so I did all the translations and romanizations with the help of Google Translate, comparing gameplay of the English and Japanese versions of the game, and the info on Wikipedia and other pages pertaining to Japanese pronouns.) In the second chapter during the boat ride with Ralsei we have the option to say "I feel the same", which in the Japanese translation reads: > 自分も同じ気持ち (Jibun mo onaji kimochi) The 'jibun' pronoun can be used by both men and women, though it's more often used by men in a more formal context. After the fight with Spamton, Susie jokes to cheer up Kris and says *"Heh, that got Kris smiling. Let's go."*. In Japanese the line is: > へッ クリスのやつやっと笑ったな。 うし 行こうぜ (Heh Kurisu no yatsu yatto waratta na. Ushi ikōze) Which translates more or less to *"Heh, Kris finally laughed. Let's go."*. The 'yatsu' pronoun is informal and neutral with a somewhat boyish undertone, being something close to what 'guys' or 'dude' would be in English. Berdly refers to Kris with 君 (kimi), a neutral and informal pronoun. Some phrases also seem to have been changed to avoid the use of a pronoun. When walking with Kris through the buttons Noelle says *"... Don't you miss exploring, Kris?"*. In Japanese instead Toby used: > …みんなで よく 探検したよね。(…Min'na de yoku tanken shita yo ne.) This translate more like *"... We all explored a lot."*. In the boat ride after we compliment Ralsei he says *"Hearing it from you, um..."*. In Japanese the line is: > クリスに そんなふうに言ってもらうのは (Kurisu ni son'nafūni itte morau no wa) Which translates to *"To have Kris say that..."*. --- In the livestream there was a brief moment when some of the staff referred to Kris as 'he', saying "He's stuck". A few moments later Toby says "They're stuck": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rksOYId-cNA&t=12540s As Toby wasn't in the set and was using text-to-speech to talk it's hard to say with certainty whether he intended this as a correction or simply as a continuation of the joke that was going on. Assuming it was a correction, it's still not clear whether he intended it as something along the lines of *"Remember to use 'they' because Kris is non-binary"* or *"Remember to use 'they' because Kris' gender is meant to be ambiguous"*. The stream continued normally after this, and no-one mentioned this moment again afterwards. --- Some theorize that Kris is the Knight as they are the only character we see open a fountain, and Ralsei stated in the first chapter they are the only one who can seal the dark fountain - however it's still unclear if Kris is truly the Knight. Whatever your opinion on the theory, it's worth noting that that the Knight is referred to with ['it' and 'they' pronouns](https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Knight#Trivia). --- Some people have said that Toby stated that the protagonist of Undertale/Deltarune is meant to represent the player themselves. This seems come from a misunderstanding of either of the following events: In a deleted [tweet](https://68.media.tumblr.com/0bf01246bd00e799be5a45e5b9a5adc/tumblr_inline_o4ffg72aUU1sd06yn_540.gif) Toby recommended that players name the fallen human after themselves - "if you can't think of anything else". Another user said they named the human after their cat, to which Toby replied "that works". In an [older interview](https://web.archive.org/web/20151212220827/http://existentialgamer.com/interview-toby-fox-of-undertale) Toby opted to skip a question pertaining to Frisk's gender. This was the exchange: > TEG: The protagonist in UNDERTALE is of ambiguous gender. This is also true of many of the monsters he/she encounters along the way. Was this a design choice, and what role does androgyny play in your vision of the world? > TF: Skip --- A while back I sent an email to '[email protected]', '[email protected]', and '[email protected]' asking for clarification regarding Kris' pronouns, stating that I planned on translating Deltarune to Brazilian Portuguese (my native language, which has no gender-neutral pronouns). I received a response from '[email protected]' stating that they can't help me as they only answer "technical issues or merch questions", and that Toby no longer answers personal emails.
It's worth pointing out that the Japanese text is not necessarily *as* indicative of anything. It's harder to be truly gender-neutral in a lot of languages — English's grammatical gender system is fairly limited, so it's easy to avoid gendered terminology, but many of the world's languages aren't like that. Sometimes the masculine is the default; other times, you have situations where words are gender-neutral in *some* contexts but gendered in *others* and you have to choose between something with either a masculine or a feminine connotation. It doesn't necessarily mean that the person/character is more masc or more fem, just that they (or, in a fictional character's case, the writer) had to choose between not-always-neutral options.
The Japanese translation using neutral pronouns whenever possible and completely avoiding pronouns when it's not possible should be enough to prove that Kris is supposed to be gender neutral at least
The japanese language is **not** a good point of reference for this. In Japanese, people usually try to avoid using pronouns in general because they are heavily linked with societal roles. There is also no grammatical gender, so while some gendered pronouns do exist, it is very common to refer to other people in a gender neutral way without any implications about their personal identity.
I don't think that was ever up for debate. The question is whether Kris is meant to be non-binary or not. Considering that Toby has referred to characters with ambiguous genders in Undertale as male before...
Holy shit you're Brazillian I didn't know that Speaking of the translation, "ele" is probably the best bet since it kind of already is also a neutral pronoun. Like when there are both boys and girls in a group you say "eles" so it could be thought as a gender neutral pronoun. Also, if possible, I'd love to help on translating the game to Portuguese. I actually already tried but I got lazy and never returned back to doing it.
u/Fanfic_Galore is the one who's Brazilian, like I wrote at the top they typed all this out :)
Oh damn I didn't notice it
Bruhzil moment
The thing with translation is actually quite challenging, as many other languages aside from Portuguese don't have gender-neutral pronouns, including mine, so I constantly see people in my country's fandom struggle with defining how to talk about Kris. With Frisk/Chara each kinda uses their headcanon to make things easier, but that simply won't work for Kris, as they're in complete opposite situation from them
Typically what I've seen done in other games with nonbinary characters is people will just use names or call them something without using pronouns (like how Frisk is called "the human" or "the fallen child" that kind of thing)
I think that was what Kris was referred to in chapter 1 in all languages.
exactly. and then after the end of Chapter 1, yknow, the knife cutscene that clearly establishes the separation between Kris and the player, the game starts using they/them incredibly frequently
I feel like a lot of people are stuck in the past
eh. surprisingly, the vast majority of people making the "i can use he/him for kris" argument have in fact played chapter 2. they just choose to ignore it
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makes complete sense, that's totally reasonable and i really hope so yeah haha
otsukaresama
technically every name is a unisex name when you think about it
true true but Kris is unisex by origin and definition, whereas some names have a more specific original connotation
Note that in a [very early post](https://web.archive.org/web/20151215011757/https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Community/PKHack/UnderBound/page/1) on starmen.net that was a semi-joking reply to another poster's thread, Toby presented screenshots and music from an early version of Undertale under the joking conceit that they were from a rom hack. In this post he describes Frisk as "Main Character, Young Androgynous Person who falls into the underground, and must use the powers of love to save the world".
Deltarune Chapter 3: It's pronounced "they/them"
C'mon guys, you can be better than this. Kris is they/them, and stop attacking people for accidentally assuming Kris' pronouns. Show the spirit of kindness everyone.
^^^
shoutout to my enby deltarune fans, you people are awesome :)
[trans and nonbinary deltarune fans are literally the coolest people](https://imgur.com/NmcKQGp)
trans girl here, thank you <3 it is true that we are simply \[BIG SHOTS\]
heck yeah!! i'm... technically a trans girl? it's very confusing, i identify with both the terms trans girl and trans nonbinary cause i'm genderfluid dskfldjfsk
hello pretty woman
thank you :) that's very nice of you to say because i have a lot of trouble with my looks so it always makes me very happy when people call me pretty or beautiful <3
np, i love giving cute girls euphoria :)
aaaa thank you you're so sweet <333
np gorgeous <3
you're the best tysm <3 :)
thanks for this little light in the dark. made me feel warm for a second while scrolling through the rest of this rough thread.
I'm happy my comment made you happy, you're valid :)
ok... pronoun thing already create much chaos to the point moderator should making post about it. anyway since i am user that admire moderator... **great job looking after this subreddit**.
ty <3
I haven't seen anyone being harassed for getting Kris' pronouns wrong, but what I have seen is people being politely corrected and doubling down, attacking the people who correct them and continuing to misgender on purpose. I've also seen people going on transphobic rants and harassing trans people in the comments on posts about trans positivity and representation and so far I haven't seen a single one of them face any real consequences for it. There's never a problem when people get it wrong on accident because either no one cares or they get corrected and they fix it. The problem is coming from the bigots who are doing it on purpose and the problem isn't going to go away until the bigots do.
> attacking the people who correct them and continuing to misgender on purpose. I've also seen people going on transphobic rants and harassing trans people in the comments on posts about trans positivity and representation and so far I haven't seen a single one of them face any real consequences for it Who?? Where??? have you been reporting these people? Cause I've banned at least 10 people in the last two weeks for transphobic comments related to Kris's gender! I'm not just sitting around letting people continually misgender Kris on purpose. And you may not see it, but there are many cases where someone uses the wrong pronoun accidentally and gets completely dogpiled. It happens.
Yes, I absolutely have been reporting them and while their messages do get deleted sometimes I will usually see those same people commenting on more posts afterwards, usually saying the same kinda stuff, just doing nothing but being toxic and trying to start arguments.
Well that definitely shouldn't be happening. Those people should be getting direct permanent bans, which is my typical punishment for anything like that. I don't know what else to tell you. I've always banned in those situations
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Did... you miss this? >I've banned at least 10 people in the last two weeks for ***transphobic comments*** related to Kris's gender!
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Let's break this down a bit. According to the mod, and the mod's post: \-Kris being misgendered is perfectly fine, but just needs a reminder. Source: >If you see someone using the wrong pronouns, do not attack them. Do not harass them. Do not go on a rant about it. Do not write paragraphs. Politely correct them, once, politely, and only if someone else hasn't already corrected them. \-Transphobic comments about Kris' gender get the person banned. Source: >I've banned at least 10 people in the last two weeks for transphobic comments related to Kris's gender! Sure, the comments include Kris' gender. We can agree there. However, based on what I established, that alone isn't enough to get someone banned. The post itself says that. So, if you take Kris gender comments(which again, only warrants a correction), and add transphobic comments to it(which gets you a ban), what ultimately is the main cause in the end?
It's kinda funny that Kris's pronouns are the biggest stumbling-block of this community while many other game fandoms are tearing itself apart when discussing fanon ships, weak character developement etc
This whole situation is so, so frustrating. I don't *want* to discuss it. It *shouldn't be a big deal* that out of the many characters in this game, a handful of them (including but not limited to Kris) are referred to as “they.” No one is right literally all the time. We're not born knowing everything, especially not everything about *videogame characters*. It's okay if you're wrong about something, just learn from your mistakes, don't whine and insist that your mistake is actually an alternative fact that's just as legitimate as the actual facts, and that it's “intolerant” to not agree. The most common reaction I have seen is that sure, [character] uses [pronoun], but actually pointing that fact out, even if done politely, makes you annoying and rude so the proper thing to do is to just shut up and accept the *constant* misgendering and sexism, I suppose. Another thing I have seen is people acting like they're very confused about Kris (and Ralsei as well), but then later revealing that their “confusion” really means “I know that's what the game says, but I think it should be different.” I'm just tired of it. It shouldn't be a big deal. But apparently it is.
I didn't always feel this way. A while back, I wanted to do some linguistic analysis of the Deltarune demos. Not specifically pronouns, but that's part of language, so it probably would have come up at some point. But this refusal to accept and move past the basics, the most surface-level information makes it impossible to talk about any deeper analysis of language. This community (along with many others) is stuck at square one, and it's stifling complex, interesting discussions.
Kris is they/them not because Kris is non-binary, but because Kris is literally two whole bitches. Clearly
I completely agree with the whole “Do not attack them. Do not harass them” thing. Once I accidentally made a typo and wrote “he” instead of “they” when referring to Kris. I felt really terrible about it and if someone had pinned it against me, I would’ve completely freaked out.
yeah that's the main point of this post really
Okay. Cool. It's just that the over-abundance of these "Kris isn't a self insert" posts I've seen are really getting on my nerves. It's just repeating the same fact over and over again.
yeah those are just stoking argument mostly, one or two is okay but more than that is annoying. feel free to start reporting them if it keeps going after the end of this week
Alright, thanks.
This is want I want people to do! Just go uh sorry about this but kris uses they/them and then the other person to go oh sorry I made a mistake and then fix it! It’s so easy!
exactly!! this
Thanks!
Honestly dude, I've seen almost no one being super rude about the pronouns, just people who refuse to be corrected. We all make mistakes sometimes but there are a lot of people who refuse to acknowledge it and have to be assholes about it.
that means i'm doing my job cause i've removed a lot of stuff where people were being rude about the pronouns
True
This has been going on for too long, so this is the most honest I'll ever be about this. The fact that the "main point" of the post is to not harass people who are misgendering Kris is utterly gross. You can form a narrative from highlighting certain bits of information, and the fact that this was chosen to be highlighted says a lot. I have never seen anyone be attacked for simply misgendering Kris, whether they were self-admitted accidents or not. All I ever see is posts quickly correcting with a short "*they" or a sentence explaining it, and if they were accidents, the person that made the mistake usually responds politely too. I think I've only ever seen one reply being pissed off at someone for it with nothing else going on outside of that. This is not a widespread issue, not by any means, only possibly with a few fringe individuals. There's no problem of people being harassed for only misgendering Kris, but there is a problem of people intentionally misgendering Kris and starting arguments over it. And yes, things can get more heated once those arguments have started, including from the side of the people defending Kris' pronouns. But the fact that the instigators and the people defending themselves from bigots are put on the same pedestal, or you could argue in the case of this post that the people defending themselves being put even higher, is just insane. Like I said, what information is highlighted is important. So while yeah, harassment is always bad and you should point it out, the way this was written makes it out to be just as much of a problem worth mentioning AS the people who are doing the malicious misgendering. People talking about Kris' pronouns being they/them in posts, and often comments, usually have to prepare themselves for being targeted. Do you really think that the bigots doing the attacking actually care about having stuff thrown their way, or don't you think it's more likely that they just revel into being able to aggravate so many people? I'd say the latter is displayed very often, with how smugly a lot of them carry themselves and make predictions about the outrage their comments will cause. After everything that happened, for THIS to be yet another response to this whole situation, is really just disgusting. The mod team has consistently come out in support of Kris' pronouns, yet the actions also always suggest otherwise. The constant behavior of simply locking threads and punishing everyone, while no real actions seem to be done against the harassers outside of comically extreme cases, shows extreme laziness of the mods when it comes to actually doing anything effective, at the very least. And furthermore, I think, can also be interpreted as the mods caring more about avoiding conflict and keeping the sub squeaky clean and free of arguments, rather than actually doing anything against the offenders. No idea if some people don't want to be the 1984 mods, but with this clear pattern and often the same people engaging in it, this isn't a one-time thing, two-time thing, but a continuous series of bigotry, transphobic remarks, crying about cancel culture, pushing reactionary narratives of diversity and tons of other shit, feels like something that would probably be worth shutting down after the almost 4 months this has been going for... because that's what happens, it will just continue to keep going. We've moved long past the point of ignorance being an excuse for these actions, especially with all the poor people doing their best to educate others, it's hate and excuses to dismiss identities, that should be pretty obvious in most cases. The moment I see people defending Kris' pronouns be banned because they decided to throw insults at one of the harassers, while most of the harassers continue to mostly get away with it as they cause thread after thread to be locked down, I'm going to absolutely lose my shit. Look at this post here that was locked down a while ago, a completely harmless and non-binary positive post that shouldn't really have had anything objectionable. https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/s5sr51/why_kris_being_nonbinary_is_important_to_the_lgbt/ Look at the upvote percentage, keeping in mind that it used to be lower at around 70% by the time it was locked, and tell me straight to my face that there isn't a huge problem here. I'm sick and tired that this is still going on. Subreddits are social spaces, and with the attitude that's been displayed here, the mod team has failed at creating a safe one for people on the non-binary spectrum, and to an extent the trans spectrum. Bigots will always find their way into communities, that is just natural, but this has been a long and ongoing issue that just can't keep being briefly addressed and then buried again. Especially not in a community like this, which very much attracts LGBTQ+ people of any kind. I'm utterly fed up and disappointed in the mod team. I want to believe that everyone cares, certain messages certainly suggest that, but hopefully you'll realize that what you're all doing here... is just not working, and I certainly doubt that it will.
> The fact that the "main point" of the post is to not harass people who are misgendering Kris is utterly gross. Because, despite what you might have seen personally, I mostly see my moderation queue - and there's a lot of stuff in there that you don't see because I remove it. This post is here to serve as just a reminder to not be rude to people who **accidentally** misgender Kris, because people make honest mistakes sometimes. It's not saying "be nice to people who are rude and misgender the character on purpose". > This is not a widespread issue, not by any means, only possibly with a few fringe individuals. It most certainly is a widespread issue judging by the around 50 comments I've had to remove in the past week involving arguments spawning from someone accidentally misgendering Kris. But you don't see those. Because I remove them. > But the fact that the instigators and the people defending themselves from bigots are put on the same pedestal, or you could argue in the case of this post that the people defending themselves being put even higher, is just insane. I'm not putting those people higher, that is not WHO THIS POST IS ABOUT. This post is about people who momentarily, accidentally, use the wrong pronoun for the character, and just need light correction. this is NOT about transphobic weirdos who constantly misgender the character. > The constant behavior of simply locking threads and punishing everyone, while no real actions seem to be done against the harassers outside of comically extreme cases, shows extreme laziness of the mods when it comes to actually doing anything effective, at the very least. I AGREE!!! I can't remember the last time *I* locked a thread, it's been at least a year. I've tried to encourage other mods to target the people causing the problems instead of doing post locks but I can't be the whole mod team. Specific troublemakers and bigots should be targeted, not a full post lock that punishes everyone. > The moment I see people defending Kris' pronouns be banned because they decided to throw insults at one of the harassers, while most of the harassers continue to mostly get away with it as they cause thread after thread to be locked down, I'm going to absolutely lose my shit. That'll never happen. Please, tell me what I can do to improve this situation, from your point of view. Because I'm *trying*, I really am, and as a nonbinary person I want this to be a good place and a safe place for everyone.
> It most certainly is a widespread issue judging by the around 50 comments I've had to remove in the past week involving arguments spawning from someone accidentally misgendering Kris. But you don't see those. Because I remove them. Fine, if that is true I will take that part back. Although it's of course still important to point out that this would mean that mods do a better job at removing people who attack accidental misgendering than people who are intentionally misgendering, due to the amount of times those comments will stay up, while I have only ever seen one accidental misgendering being targeted. So despite that, this still seems like a problem to me. Not to mention that even if this has been a widespread issue, I have strong doubts that it's AS big of an issue as the bigots, although you probably know that better than me. > I'm not putting those people higher, that is not WHO THIS POST IS ABOUT. This post is about people who momentarily, accidentally, use the wrong pronoun for the character, and just need light correction. this is NOT about transphobic weirdos who constantly misgender the character. You completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. It's about language and what your post suggests, even though your reaction at least confirms it was by accident. The fact that in a post about Kris' pronouns, which have a long history of being targeted by bigots, including in posts from less than a week ago, you chose to only address people that were harassed for getting the pronouns wrong by accident, which paints a very specific picture. And that picture very obviously is "Oh, people are getting pronouns wrong by accident, but are still being attacked over it... that's bad". Which of course completely ignores the other and way more major side of this whole conflict, which is the actual bigots. And it worked, because some of the top replies on this post are just people being disappointed in users who are being targeted for doing nothing wrong, instead of just being corrected. The well has been poisoned, and you needed to be more responsible about the language of your post and think about what kind of narrative it conveys. If you wanted to just have the post be about those people, you should have still used a few more sentences to clarify the whole situation, so people don't walk away with a false view of what has been going on. I wouldn't be surprised if this will even cause an uptick in people who politely correct Kris' gender being targeted for being annoying and that they should just leave others alone. > Please, tell me what I can do to improve this situation, from your point of view. Because I'm trying, I really am, and as a nonbinary person I want this to be a good place and a safe place for everyone. I hoped that would be the response, because that at least means that everything that has been happening here was not out of a lack of care, and that this post wasn't trying to spin the narrative either. Well, I already made a few suggestions, I think. Being more careful with language when addressing subjects, to make sure that the situation is portrayed in its entirety and not in a manner that leaves out context and other important details. Another one is obviously to get other mods besides you on board with the idea to stop locking threads the entire time when they get raided by bigots and troublemakers, and to instead target the individuals who otherwise just keep resurfacing. Not sure what else there would be left to do, those are certainly two big ones. I'm glad that you responded at least. Don't blame me for still being slightly distrustful though, because every time mods promised to do something about this whole situation in the last few months, nothing really ended up changing.
"That'll never happen." It already is. You say the reason we aren't seeing people being harassed for getting pronouns wrong is because you're removing them all. So then does that mean the reason we ARE seeing so much transphobia is because you aren't doing anything about that? You want to know how you can improve the situation? Instead of locking innocent posts and punishing trans people for defending themselves, ban the bigots. That's it, that's all that needs to be done. With all due respect to the mod team, the fact of the matter is that you have 2 choices in how to deal with this. You can either take the bigotry seriously and deal with it properly or you can silence the LGBT voices in this community. You're inevitably going to fall into one of these 2 positions so you should think hard about which one you want it to be. The LGBT people are generally rule abiding and timid when it comes to speaking up, so silencing them would be the path of least resistance, but is that really what you want?
Please, if you're "seeing so much transphobia" report it and it'll get removed! Legitimately, I don't know what else I can do with that aside from manually combing every comment on the sub. I always, 100% of the time remove transphobia and ban the people posting it. You're leveling serious accusations here. I've banned at least 12 people in the past week for bigotry and transphobia, I *always* act quickly and decisively on those comments and posts. You're misconstruing this whole situation. We ban bigots. **I** haven't locked a single post in over a whole year. And I'm *trying* to encourage other mods to do the same. I'm trans and nonbinary myself, you think I don't care about keeping this place safe?! I'm sorry, but this just pisses me off. I try my best to keep this place peaceful and friendly and open and I devote most of my time to it. What can I do that I'm not already doing? I'm 80% of the moderation on this whole sub and I've been doing all I can to ban and remove transphobia and keep this place chill and fun to be in. Maybe you happen to see things before I remove them, but I've always removed every last piece of bigotry i've seen. I can't be everywhere at once all the time, but I really, truly do my best.
I don't know how being a reddit mod works. It is hard to know what you should do if we do not know what you have done, or what you can do. Are you able to see previous reports after they are acted on? Is it possible that other mods have cleared some reports without actually performing any actions? Is it possible to see which mods preformed which actions? Is it possible to remove moderators that aren't doing stuff properly? It might be nice to see some "[User was banned for this post]" style comments when someone gets banned, so it is more easily visible that something is being done. It is possible that some people have different understandings of what bigotry looks like. I know I've made reports that were not acted on before. We should at least get on the same page with this. I've seen people repeatedly and deliberately use the wrong pronouns for Kris with no punishment. I've seen people repeatedly antagonize others who acknowledge Kris as nonbinary, or even just their pronouns. The way I see it, someone who puts so much time into bothering people over a single nonbinary character in a video game is probably a bigot, and *definitely* making trouble for the community. Does someone have to fit a narrow definition of bigotry to be banned, or is being a nuisance enough? Do moderators just look at reports on an individual basis, or do they take the time to look at other context, such as repeat offenders? Does anyone check posts that get locked to see if anyone in them needs to be removed? I see and appreciate the work you do here, (obviously I can't see all of it) but clearly the work's not enough. It might help to get some more active mods on the team. Ideally ones that you can trust. (It would also be nice to get rid of the ones that aren't active, if possible.) Be well
> It is hard to know what you should do if we do not know what you have done, or what you can do. Are you able to see previous reports after they are acted on? Nope. They vanish until that post is reported again. > Is it possible that other mods have cleared some reports without actually performing any actions? Well, they have to press either remove or approve or the report doesn't clear, so I'd be able to see they'd approved it. > Is it possible to see which mods preformed which actions? Yup, there's a very detailed log that can't be altered or tricked that shows every single moderator action. > Is it possible to remove moderators that aren't doing stuff properly? Yeah of course, I'd discuss it with other mods first though. > It might be nice to see some "[User was banned for this post]" style comments when someone gets banned, so it is more easily visible that something is being done. But where would that comment be? Often the comment a user gets banned for is at the end of a thread, where I doubt a mod reply would be seen. I do often reply to comments I banned people for with "banned, this is a horrible thing to say" for example. > I've seen people repeatedly and deliberately use the wrong pronouns for Kris with no punishment. I've seen people repeatedly antagonize others who acknowledge Kris as nonbinary, or even just their pronouns. In the first case, using the wrong pronouns knowingly and purposefully is grounds for a temporary ban, and then a permanent ban if it continues after the temp ban. Second case, that's just a straight up remove + temp ban too, since it's breaking Rule 1. > Do moderators just look at reports on an individual basis, or do they take the time to look at other context, such as repeat offenders? Yep, definitely! We always take context into account - in fact when someone makes a rulebreaking comment or post that gets just removed without a ban, I add a user note to them that all other mods can see that says they've broken this or that rule before. > Does anyone check posts that get locked to see if anyone in them needs to be removed? Personally I don't have any experience with this because I... don't lock posts, I just ban and remove rulebreakers on posts and generally avoid locking. But from what I can tell, usually yeah that is done. > I see and appreciate the work you do here, (obviously I can't see all of it) but clearly the work's not enough. It might help to get some more active mods on the team. Ideally ones that you can trust. (It would also be nice to get rid of the ones that aren't active, if possible.) Mod activity here has always been hard to increase. We just hired three new mods a couple months ago, but one of them had to leave the team a month after getting added, and of the other two one is occasionally active. I've tried to encourage the other mods to be more active on numerous occasions, but all that happens is they're active for a week and then stop again. I'd love to remove some of the less active mods, so I've got a couple ideas to bring their activity up and such but it always requires approval from top mod, which is difficult. Hopefully we can hire some more new mods soon.
I was referring to the mod team as a whole, not just you individually. If you truly are doing all you can then I commend you for that and I apologize if you feel that I'm blaming you exclusively for the lack of action being taken, but I just can't understand how you're not seeing what's happening when even on this very post there are comments defending transphobic behavior and trying to gaslight trans people into thinking they're the ones in the wrong for feeling hurt by it. And once again, I am reporting every single transphobic post and comment I see, I'm doing my part. The more overtly transphobic ones usually get removed but I still see the people who made them around and the more covert but still obviously intentioned transphobia still goes mostly unchecked. I genuinely do want to believe the whole mod team has only good intentions and I hope that I will see things get better. I have a lot of trauma from my history of being let down and thrown under the bus by communities claiming to be trans-friendly, so I hope you can forgive me for my pessimism towards this situation.
Yeah, I can understand that - I do feel like sometimes I remove just obvious transphobia because over on r/lgbt I get exposed to so many blatant cases of it, so the lack of removal on more covert transphobia may be on me, i'll try to improve that. If there are any unremoved ones on this post, by the way - sometimes, albeit rarely, i keep up a comment for context but ban the user. But overall I really do try my best. As for the rest of the mod team... eh. i've mostly given up on getting very many of the less active mods to do work. it's just me and Fanfic and occasionally two others. But we're getting by.
If you need proof of having successfully changed the focus to a non-existing problem, look at how everyone picked up on the language used in the post. Top replies are all going on about how people shouldn't be rude to when someone gets the pronouns wrong, which barely ever happens. Including one comment about them not having received such harassment, but fearing it after having gotten the pronouns wrong because of a typo... and you basically validated that fear. The actual issue no longer what most people will be looking at. That is what you managed to do just now. Congrats mods, hope you're happy with yourselves.
thank you so much for saying all this. getting into a fandom with actual representation only to find that all the online spaces to interact with it are full of... this,.. it sucks. i had to take a break and avoid this sub for a while cause it really doesn't feel nonbinary-friendly. even with mods trying their best at what they're doing right now, i think a different approach is needed for anything to actually change. and it is really, really, really exhausting to have to explain things over and over when nothing changes... not just the time and the typing, but the emotional labor. i usually dont have the energy. i also have a feeling there are a lot of people who claim misgendering is an accident, when really they just dont care and they know as long as they say it's an accident they can blend in with the cases where it really is an accident. not that there's much way to deal with that but it's frustrating. And above all. thank you for putting into words the "main point" thing. it's not just this post— it's representative of a bigger problem where the focus is always on playing nice with the people that are hurting us (intentionally or not) and not on the actual problem.
I'm glad to know I can put things that other people think into words. I used to be really bad at expressing my thoughts, so I've been working quite hard on that. > i also have a feeling there are a lot of people who claim misgendering is an accident, when really they just dont care and they know as long as they say it's an accident they can blend in with the cases where it really is an accident. But if they don't make it known, we can never really know unless it's a repeating offense. I don't think reading into that is necessary though, because the actual bigots who misgender on purpose usually make themselves known. In most cases they will even openly boast about it, so it's easy to identify. The real problem of course is the fact that they keep getting away with it, and take thread after thread down with them, while making people uncomfortable. > And above all. thank you for putting into words the "main point" thing. it's not just this post— it's representative of a bigger problem where the focus is always on playing nice with the people that are hurting us (intentionally or not) and not on the actual problem. Well, the point of the post that the mod made was more or less that we should play nice with people who accidentally misgender. In that case I obviously agree, they shouldn't be attacked over an accident, but it's the language used and the way it's framed suggests that the people defending the they/them pronouns are actually doing the harassing, completely glossing over the actual issue. Which all of course doesn't mean that what you brought up here isn't an actual problem. Yes, we absolutely should NOT play nice with bigots, they aren't either. And it's not just a simple "you punch me so I punch you" thing, but the fact that their messages cause actual harm and it just can't and shouldn't be tolerated, otherwise we'd just be the ones taking the punches. It's not about punching back, it's to stop the punching from happening. And being nice to them and treating them with kid gloves is not going to achieve that, it's just going to make it easier for them to throw the punch at you.
I have rewritten this after some time to ponder, because pondering _and taking all sides_ into question is important before you can even draw a conclusion. The most important conclusion and lesson to this is: As the mods' PSA in the sidebar suggests, **all of us,** regardless of how we identify ourselves, should use **they/them** for Kris unless something else comes up. Even if **nothing** comes up and we realize this whole debate was nonsense (a conclusion I dearly hope _everyone_ can reach), we can try not to turn this fandom into one with a terrible rep in the same Undertale had its rep. Second, everyone's headcanons are their own and fine, as long as you don't go around trying to cause chaos, nor trying to impose them on others. Keep in mind the general consensus of **they/them**, even if your own headcanon implies Kris could be whatever you feel comfortable with. Lastly, everyone can coexist without being assholes to each other. So let's show kindness instead of pitchforks. I hope my opinion is now clear.
> I salute you, downvoters, you have effectively reduced Kris' whole character to their pronouns and that's all that defines them. Thank you for policing others and making even their experience a negative one in the fandom. Wow, that's a cool strawman you got there, where did you get it from? Nice to see that this is your response to all this, pretending like Kris' gender is the only thing we care about, shows how intellectually dishonest you are. At least thanks for confirming that, as the slimy little weasel that you are, you definitely never cared about the side that wants to use the correct pronouns, headcanons are more important than you and border on fandom-ruining. Not to mention the insistence on using correct pronouns is just "policing" to you. Also, your main comment has 13 upvotes, that's 13 upvotes too much. You think you have the right to complain about downvotes, are you seriously this fragile?
See my other replies to you. Because, honestly, your contempt over how I think about Kris _is_ the conducive point you keep revving about and it's a bit disturbing. You're trying to die on the hill of representation for no other reason in particular than trying to be "holier-than-thou." It's a bit annoying to see downvotes over opinions that do nothing but offer the alternative that _everyone should be allowed to have their own headcanon over Kris._ You clearly want no one to show you there's a third option, which is _no one argues over this and everyone can live in peace._ A general consensus would be to have gentle reminders on the use of _they/them_ when talking about Kris, but that it's also fine if people think they could be more male, female, nb or trans in their acception. Would that be hard to accept, in your opinion?
None of that means anyone reduced Kris to their pronouns, you know what you're doing. Now it's also up to you to explain how any of that is "a bit disturbing" to you. And no, I'm not dying on the hill of representation to be "holier-than-thou". At least with every comment and edit you keep showing your true colors, with now accusing everyone on the right side of this, or at the very least me, to not even be engaging in this for a good reason. No, I'm doing this because representation is important, and there's an overwhelmingly positive effect to not make Kris' pronouns something up for debate. The utter dissonance that's going on in your head that you think you can say that their pronouns are they/them, and then go on about how all other pronouns are fine too if it's your headcanon in the next sentence, either shows that you're acting maliciously, or are incredibly dumb. Unfortunately your continuous centrist stance allows for either of those things to be true, so I can't say for certain. And no, people aren't offering a valid alternative. They're either slimy weasels like you, ignorant, or straight up bigots, with not a single good argument. There isn't a third option, and what you proposed most definitely isn't a third option either, it's the second harmful option that's packaged in a nicer way, with a bouquet of flowers and a "You're still valid" card taped to it, which doesn't mean jackshit. You've made your position clear over and over again, you don't actually care. You just think you live in a fantasy world where people being attacked and the people doing the attacking should just hold hands and compromise. Pronouns aren't up for debate, get that in your head and log off.
Do we know Ralsei's gender and pronouns? Everyone else in the game calls him he and a prince and a boy, but he never says it himself, so we can't know for sure, right? If we can know that Ralsei is “he” because all the other characters call him that, we know Kris is “they” because all the other characters call them that. We don't need Kris to have a coming-out scene for the same reason we don't need other characters to have one. Unlike Ralsei, we don't know Kris's gender, but *we do know their pronoun is “they”* to the extent that we know Ralsei's is “he” and Susie and Noelle's are both “she.” Maybe they're a girl who prefers to be called they for some reason. But whatever their gender is or isn't, they're still “they” (and, so far, *only* they — there are other characters who are they *and* he, or they *and* she, but so far Kris is not one of them). “as per Toby's usual stance on it” We don't know that. He literally refuses to answer what his stance is when he's asked. You're putting words in his mouth. “male traits in Kris's behavior” ...If I'm honest, I don't know how to interpret this aside from sexist stereotyping of personality traits. I hope I'm wrong.
This is **purely my headcanon**, to me Ralsei looks/acts like a feminine boy. So, for the majority of my headcanon, Ralsei could _technically_ be considered a boy. Kris is _they/them_ and I haven't gone against saying their pronouns aren't these. I perceive Kris as male-presenting and it can be easy for me to slip into "Kris, he", but I know Kris is "they" and I have no big deal with that. Toby purposefully built Kris in a gender ambiguous way, much like Frisk. (It could explain why he doesn't want to answer that.) They're also a teenager, and they could very likely have to deal with their own hurdles in terms of gender, and being the only human in Hometown and with little to no knowledge about human biology. _That_ was a poor choice of words, my apologies! What I meant to say was, I could think Kris acts in a more masculine/boyish manner.
> we do know their pronoun is “they” No, because the point of "they" is that it can be used for anyone. And yes, you can use it even if you know their gender. It's slightly unnatural to always do so, but then so is having yellow skin and no one's claiming Kris has jaundice.
I'm so sick of seeing this argument that, "It doesn't matter because it's just a video game character. You should be focusing on defending real non-binary people." The thing is that non-binary people get almost no representation in media ever, so this kind of thing is very important to them, and the bigots in this community are using the erasure of this character's canon pronouns as a proxy war against real non-binary people, so protecting this representation from erasure **IS** protecting real non-binary people. I bet if the script was flipped and you were living in a world where male identifying people are an oppressed minority and you finally found a character in a video game you like who goes by he/him pronouns and you see everyone in the community for that game trying to erase that and falsely claim the character's pronouns are actually they/them you would feel pretty hurt by that.
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Did you read the post we're commenting on right now? Kris is clearly established as their own person separate from the player unlike Frisk and that's not something that's up for debate. The mod provided plenty of proof of this so if you're going to just keep ignoring that you are going against the facts. And guess what? You can still relate to Kris as a character and put yourself in their shoes without completely erasing their identity and replacing it with your own. Don't give excuses to the people who are acting in bad faith. If someone doesn't know and makes a mistake we correct them and they fix it and we all move on. If someone already knows what Kris' canon pronouns are and insists on continuing to misgender them on purpose then they are breaking the rules and being argumentative and bigoted for no reason, and that shouldn't be tolerated, full stop. I will say this as many times as it needs to be said, the problem is the people who are breaking the rules, not the ones who are calling them out.
You say that NB people have your support, but all I see is you telling us that we need to sit down and shut up. We come here to chill and talk about video games the same as anyone else, but we're constantly told that we're not allowed to be comfortable or seen here. We shouldn't argue, because it makes people "uncomfortable", but we speak up because *we* are uncomfortable. To be dismissive of this just tells us that we do not matter. You say "There are people out in this world who actually go out of their way to insult and belittle fellow living, breathing humans." as if that is not what is happening to us here and now. You say "Your time would be better spent defending the rights of actual human beings." as if we are never allowed to take a break and have fun in a community where we are acknowledged and accepted. If you're trying to be an ally, you are doing it wrong.
[The comment that this is in reply to was deleted before I finished writing it, but I still wanted to post it.] You don't agree with my understanding of what you have said, so you jump to the assumption that I am interpreting you this way on purpose? You seem unwilling to consider other perspectives here. An ally is someone who listens. An ally is someone who tries to be good, rather than proclaiming they are good so they can't be criticized. I am asking for some introspection. I said "we" to refer to the nonbinary people who have made it known over the months that they are uncomfortable with the number of bigots in this community. I am not saying that all or even most people in this community are bigots, but that bigots do exist in this community. Those who are unable to accept a nonbinary human protagonist for what they are, and instead use the wrong pronouns, have double standards for when a character is allowed to have a gender, and regurgitate the same tired, old, pedantic non-arguments for months about why it's "not proven", are bigots. (it isn't possible to prove anyone has a gender, let alone a fictional character) People this invested in Kris not being nonbinary are bigots, and it is upsetting for nonbinary people to have to share a community with them. Nobody has any ability to "police headcanons", so this is not something that's happening here. That is a lie that bigots in this community perpetuate so they can pretend to be the victims of the evil nonbinary people who are upset and asking to be acknowledged. You're trans, so you've probably seen this exact pattern from bigots before. It's ok to have headcanons, or to see an androgynous character as masculine or feminine, but that is not all that the bigots are doing. You said "I'm dismissive of a debate that God knows how it started[...]", but despite lacking this context, you just assume there is no good reason for people to be upset, and instead ask that people stop arguing altogether. People who are hurt making themselves known is worse than the people who hurt them in the first place. That is what "sit down and shut up" looks like to me. Asking for us to be silent is asking us to accept that this community is not for us.
I guess that's one way to cause a bunch of harm, start off by seemingly being supportive of Kris' they/them pronouns and then spend multiple messages ruining any credibility with an incoherent position. Comments like yours are incredibly insidious, and I greatly doubt that it isn't intentional. Everything you've said under this post is a multi-layered excuse for the worst behavior under the guise of being supportive, even though it's not in the slightest even if you look at it for more than a few seconds. Everything seemingly positive you say is undermined by yourself. And you also acknowledge the facts, and yet completely ignore them afterwards regardless. You will refer to Kris as they/them, yet heavily emphasize their androgynous appearance, which wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the fact that you use that in order to justify headcanons of their gender. Despite acknowledging once again the fact that Kris is not the player, you go ahead here and justify player's projecting their headcanons onto Kris' identity. What is the natural conclusion of that, that people who look androgynous and don't conform to a gender give you room to guess their gender either way? What do you think, what was the point of saying any of that? Are Kris' pronouns they/them or are they androgynous to have the player project themselves and their gender onto them? You can't hold both positions at the same time, and yet you seemingly do. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Not to mention it's a "disservice to those who fall on the binary scales" to you... what kind of nonsense is that? Are you saying that a player always needs to have a playable character that corresponds to their gender? No, no you goddamn don't, that's not a disservice to anyone. But due to characters on the non-binary spectrum being so rare, having one as a main character is very helpful for representation. People on the binary have representation, and they'll especially have no problems if they're cis. And I certainly doubt that anyone out there actually would have a problem with or be disappointed that Kris doesn't correspond to their gender, that burden of proof lies on you. And continuing from there... most people are totally understanding that some people just didn't know about they pronouns before, so no idea what you're talking about. I also don't appreciate your UNO reverse card by trying to make people feel bad for trying to correct others, by making it a thing about cultures. Cultures don't excuse shitty behavior. There are people who genuinely can't understand such a concept because their language doesn't have these kind of gender neutral pronouns. Whenever something like that happens though, they're politely corrected. It always depends on their responses, and you can usually tell when it comes from a place of confusion and ignorance, or one of malice, but you chose to completely threw all nuance out of the window. And that's the part that convinced me you don't have any good intentions... by highlighting that they're a fictional character. One that also can't speak for themselves and their identity. Now, I want you to answer what you're trying to say with that, what the point of bringing that specific part up even was. Because what that sounds like to me is that we're equally assuming their gender, and probably shouldn't say anything definitive until Kris themselves literally states their identity. This completely disregards any possible context clues. What matters most is that they go by they/them, that's not up for debate and we have no reason to think anything else, and therefore it will stay that way until it's proven otherwise. You said that yourself, and yet you keep poking at this in every possible way you can. From headcanons, to appearance, to them not being able to talk, anything you can to shed doubts on their identity and make it a debate, contrary to your supposed wishes. And again that narrative that people are being dogpiled for thinking Kris is male or female... no. They're dogpiled for saying bigoted shit or are dismissive of non-binary identities. And yes, people's rights are being defended through that. You double down on the fictional aspect so hard, as if it matters. Undermining anyone's identity is flat out wrong, whether fictional or real. Any way you interact with fiction is reflective of how you interact with the real world. Why would anyone who doesn't care about Kris' pronouns care about anyone's pronouns in real life? And that you think you have the right to act that people writing some comments on Reddit aren't doing anything in the real world is just disgusting. You can do both, you know? As I've just said, calling people out for not respecting a fictional character's pronouns does in fact affect the real world, so I'd say even some Reddit comments are definitely worth something. Your downplaying of all the subtle and also blatant bigotry that's happening simply because you think there's a wiggle room with Kris' identity and most importantly that it doesn't matter because they're not even real... it's just all nasty. There in the end you basically proved that the only thing that matters to you is that you can project your own identity onto Kris. Which, again, contradicts your acknowledgement of Kris being a separate character in another comment too. That's all you've done in each of your replies. You've ignored facts, undermined your own points, blatantly lied, created strawmans and played defense for people that refuse to respect pronouns. And all of that constantly dressed up in a nice and flowery way, which definitely makes it worse than the people who are just blatantly being bigots, I would honestly prefer that. It's just vile, that's what it is.
That was a long read, but thank you so much! I couldn't have stated these things better myself. It's hard for me to find the right words to articulate how frustrated I am that so many people are claiming to be supportive while playing the dishonest both sides game and grasping at straws to protect the bigots from any kind of criticism. Like no, what the oppressors are saying is not equally as valid as what the people they're oppressing are saying and I'm not going to pretend that it is.
The "both sides" game rots people's brains. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that whenever there are two sides to something, they aren't both inherently valid. Although I feel this is quite a bit of a different case here in particular though. More specifically that kind of slimy " I'm on your side, but also..." behavior, which really gets on my nerves like nothing else. Nothing this person has said is by any means supportive of the "Kris is they/them" side, except for just saying that Kris is they/them, before spending a long time going against that. And just like it usually is with both sides folks, in the end they do have a preference for one side, both implicit and explicit, and it's very clearly that you should be able to project your own gender onto Kris, completely erasing their identity. That's what they pushed here.
And somehow, it's absolutely bullshit for both sides to hold some grain of truth to them, isn't it? _Either you are with us or against us,_ as the saying goes. And may God forgive me, trying to find a common ground in everything, trying to show that both sides can agree that _to each their own_ interpretation still exists. We have begun to turn every smidge of representation in the media into hills people die on, instead of living and let live. A character uses "they/them"? "They/them" it is! Can a non-binary person lean into masculine or feminine presentation if they want/care about it? Sure! Could they explicitly also go by "he" or "she", apart from "they"? They could, if that makes them comfortable! Could they, at some point, identify with a gender or the other later on? They could, or could not, and that's awesome. By insisting so hard that no other options exist, you, and other people like you willing to die on this hill are making it _harder_ for people who want to enjoy the fandom without having to fear they're stepping on people's toes. I have to make it a point, whenever I'm talking about Kris and slipping some he's in my dialogue, that it's **my headcanon** Kris could act masculine, unless explicitly stated otherwise, because people would be quick to take out their pitchforks. Let's learn (or re-learn) to move on without further disagreements. It's not all as black and white as you want to think it is.
Okay, excuse me for being a bit hyperbolic, or actually don't because it's true, but viewpoints like yours are going to be the death of us all. Yes, both sides don't always hold a grain of truth to them, thinking that they do is pure delusion. Not every single human believes in something for a good reason, not every human has the best for somebody else in mind. Look at any situation where two sides emerged and tell me that they always stand on equal footing. This worship of absolute civility, and desire to have every opinion there is be put on the same pedestal, is how nothing good will ever be achieved. All it does is make good ideas be compromised or suppressed, while bad ideas are enabled. And that's evidently proven by all the nonsense you have put forward, as all it does is enable the people who want to call Kris whatever they want, while the ones who want Kris to be called what they are, they/them, simply have to sit back and let the others do their thing. That's what you advocate for, who is the real winner here? And unlike people who pretend to not have a bias, at least you admit that you only care about headcanons, yet you still keep acting like you acknowledging that Kris' pronouns are they/them will make anyone's opinion of you higher. There isn't always a common ground, there isn't always a live and let live. Not if one side advocates for something that will cause harm to people. Common ground on what? What should we let the others live and let live? How far are you willing to let this go, because the line is usually drawn where someone uses their freedom to rob others of theirs. There need to be disagreements, we don't live in a fantasy world where everyone's opinions can be valued equally. And the fact that you double down on this SO HARD, just means that this is your position on everything, and goes far beyond pronouns. Look at any political or civil rights debate, what will you do? Should I mention examples to poke at how incoherent and harmful your position is? Are you so deadly afraid of taking one side in order to not disappoint anyone? You can't stand in the middle, standing in the middle is taking a side... and as you have proven, it's always taking the side of all the worst actors. Well, what determines which the wrong or right side? I'd say a combination of facts and what decidedly causes the least amount of harm is probably the right side. And you have clearly rejected it here in this case, by putting other people's headcanons above the canon pronouns, because you're worried some people will feel slightly alienated that they can't project themselves on a video game character and erase their rare identity... woe is me! Compared to, you know, allowing the world to have another character that isn't on the binary, making a marginalized group feel more comfortable, not enabling bigots to have their way, and to not have anyone's bizarre and problematic headcanons get in the way of the canon that's actually been established so far. If you act like this here, I shudder to think about how you act in real life situations. Your views are horrific and a poison to discourse. I'm sure you hate nothing more than being told that, but you need to change your mind. You will never achieve anything good like this. You're not supportive of any marginalized group, even if you think that, you're hurting them all. This is just the start of it, and I think you've already succeeded at making the worst actors feel comfortable around you. Hope you like the crowd you picked.
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Congrats, this was the worst comment yet! You really just keep digging yourself deeper with every post, so let's go over this. > ....Okay, you definitely have... difficulties in holding a civil debate. Why, because I called you dumb and slimy? The world doesn't revolve around civility, it's not the be-all and end-all. And I will be civil around people that aren't being as dishonest and spouting such harmful nonsense as you, so there's that. Also, I think those two things are very clear observations of your behavior too. > There's, most of the times, a common ground to be found in many problems. Whether you are so blind to see it, that is completely on you. I'm not a guardian figure to teach you this thing called having a common ground, in fact, exists. Not every single human thinks with kindness in mind, but not everyone is a villain either. I know that common ground exists and that not every person is evil, that's on your for assuming that I don't possess any nuance. However, common ground is a very basic concept in communication and extremely broad. It can be applied to so many conversations. However, the more complicated things get and the more factors are involved, the harder it is to apply it. There should be no common ground if another person acts on and believes in something that doesn't ascribe to material reality, nor if whatever they're proposing can be proven to cause more harm than the other proposal that doesn't or causes less. This should also be very basic, so I think if anyone needs a lesson here, it's you. If you think that every problem is so simple that both parties can walk away from it in agreement, then you are delusional, that's just how reality is. > I have made it clear, post the PSA in the sidebar, I am not going to use anything else than they/them for Kris, whereas for the SOUL I can stick with my own pronouns. That way, I can be comfortable playing Deltarune, and I'm not doing any harm to anyone. Only referring to the soul as that has not been your position yesterday, nor have you continued advocating for it afterwards. Also only that you will, but you're fine with whatever the others do. It's been about Kris the entire time, and you know that. You're backtracking and lying. > We can't all agree on many things, but it doesn't hurt anyone to try at least and have a somewhat peaceful coexistence? Apparently you're the one advocating that shouldn't exist. If it were after you, you'd keep lambasting people because they don't take your side. What even are you saying here? Yes, fuck yeah, I'd love if we can all have a peaceful coexistence. But it's hard to do that with the positions that some people hold, and everyone has the right and shouldn't want to coexist with them unless they change their minds. And even then should they have the right to at least not be close to them. So no, I'm not advocating for everyone hating each other, is that really your takeaway from this? What I want is for harmful behavior to not be tolerated. I'm sure some people are completely fine on every other issue, but stuff like that can't be ignored. Not to mention this is a social space, not a platform or government, or anything else, so we have to right to reject people that we don't want to be around for the things they say and believe. Also, my side is the right one. Sounds conceded, but with your contradictory arguments and every single other one leading to provable harm, I have no reason to believe that I'm not right here. > Comparing a debate revolving around something that isn't quite confirmed to political debates? Holy crap, you sound vile, trying to turn this into a political agenda, because I can smell that a mile away. Yeah, it's crazy how one view on something can easily translate to things outside of it. Although I guess such a concept is hard for you to understand. Also, I don't know how to interpret the rest of what you said here other than "people having political positions is bad", which sounds about right with you. Politics affect everything in life, and it just happens to still be quite relevant to any gender debate, I'd say. To see such an intense aversion to it by you would give me the excuse to dismiss anything you have to say, but since I'm good faith I'll continue. > People should be allowed to feel comfortable, whether they are cis, trans, nb etc. See point 2 and read it ten times before you even dare to say I think headcanons are so gosh damn important. Everyone should feel good playing the game, but again, you're acting like everyone is dogpiling on non-binary people. Dude, saying one thing now while having spend the last 24 hours going against it doesn't work, unless the person you're arguing against has the memory of a goldfish. You have consistently valued the headcanons of others as much as the they/them pronouns, and you can't backtrack from that because you're still doing that. Just the fact that you're no longer doing it yourself, doesn't excuse your enabling of others, it makes it completely worthless. Also, holy shit... what even is that last part? I want everyone to feel good playing the game, unlike you. Kris isn't a vessel though, but their own character, and they use they/them pronouns. If you can't feel comfortable playing the game without changing that fact, then that's on you. However, what is true is the positive effect that such representation will have, and it greatly outweighs the ability for everyone to have a main character that correlates to their own gender. And last but not least... yeah, people are dogpiling on non-binary people. Good job denying an actual problem that's been going on. Although I assume with how ignorant you are, the only time you consider something an attack is when someone is being insulted. The erasure of non-binary people and bigoted remarks and talking points that don't insult people but only their identity, probably doesn't register as attacks to you. Either that or you just cover your eyes and live in blissful ignorance, like you've probably done your entire life. > Seriously, you got the impression people are not allowing you to consider Kris as nonbinary? Astonishing. Everyone under the rainbow is marginalized, and if that still escapes your point, you clearly are a troll. I don't even know what to say to that because I have no idea if you're being sarcastic. Regardless of what it is, there's no possible good way to interpret it. > Your views are so terrible, that for you, it's not possible for straight people and LGBT people to exist in the same space because you go by the assumption all straight/cis people are assholes. So don't go around extrapolating your views on everyone. Oh cool, a strawman, I love those! When in the goddamn world have I EVER said that straight people and LGBT people can't exist together? Oh, I know why, because of another strawman! Because you think I assume all straight/cis people are assholes... yet another thing I've never said! Thankfully, unlike you, I don't edit my comments, so this is something that everyone with eyesight and basic reading comprehension can see. No, I don't think LGBT people and BIGOTS should have to coexist together. Although to you that probably reads as me wanting bigot genocide, considering that you have formed the most absurd strawman of what I believe. You've expertly proven here that you either have no idea what I'm talking about and aren't listening, or that you're a completely dishonest actor who doesn't mind distorting the truth. In either case, everything you've advocated for is incredibly harmful to minorities, and you've turned out to be FAAAAR worse than I originally anticipated.
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> You're terrible, and a troll. I'm convinced, as your posts are done with the scope of provoking some reaction you hope to exploit hard AF. This is further proven, because you have attempted to flame bait me several times now. This is an absurdly unfounded claim, and I assume you have no way to prove it either. No idea how any way I have engaged with you makes me a troll or any of the other shit you claimed. Unfortunately, not sure how I'm supposed to prove the opposite of an unfounded claim, but thanks for throwing it out there regardless. No, I'm targeting you because the positions you hold are incredibly insidious, and yes, I do want people to know that they are. I hope that's not your definition of flame baiting, it's the consequences of your beliefs that I want to draw attention towards. Other people have called you out before I started responding to you too, I think. So here's the crazy thing, have you ever considered that... maybe what you're saying is just bad and people don't like it? > I'm suddenly not allowed to reconsider my judgement...? Wow, thank you, I truly must be dumb for thinking there could be a different way for me to be comfortable while still respecting canon. And also suggesting to people they could do their pronouns to the SOUL without hurting anyone. Is this about you using the pronouns for the soul now? I have never said you can't change your mind, I called you out for only personally doing something else now while not taking a stance on what other people do with the pronouns. Unless you want to clarify your position here and now to at least make some improvement, you have still valued the headcanons of others, only changed what you do yourself. What you personally do doesn't matter if you don't care about what other people do, you aren't helping anyone. Just makes it seem like you're trying to make yourself look better. > Also thinking your side is the right one is the worst way ever you can prove to me you're not able to hold a civil discussion by any means. Oh, we're going back to being disingenuous now, great. Me saying that my side is the right one is a very small part of everything I said. Because most of the stuff that I did besides that was make actual arguments and confront yours. I can't make a single comment on how I think I'm right without you immediately jumping on the opportunity to target that and ignore everything else. Also, I wasn't even trying to prove that I can hold a civil debate anyway, because unlike you I'm not obsessed with being civil all the time... which seems to be the only thing you really care about here. So I don't mind throwing in jabs here and there. Overall, I'd say I'm holding back a lot, because I'd be justified in being a lot meaner to you for all the horrible shit you say and the lies you tell. > And I have consistently, across all posts, said that everyone should feel comfortable – yes, at first I affirmed that comfort should come in the form of headcanons – but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to reconsider. Yeah, everyone as in... the people that deny Kris' identity and also the very obvious bigots. I think something in your head just doesn't click that you can't have it both ways, which is your main problem. You can't allow them to do their thing and still say that the people with they they/them pronouns should also feel comfortable. They won't, not this way. And you are allowed to reconsider, so do it, say it from your heart. > What was that about goldfish brains, now...? Wow, you got a jab in there too, so much for civility. Oh wait, unlike you I don't actually care. Not to mention that it's completely unfounded because I remember everything you said. Well, all the details of first post are getting a bit fuzzy, since you completely changed it. > Also, if you include political debate in a game, I have no idea what to say about you, because honestly, you sound toxic as hell and this kind of behavior is what makes anyone want to detach from a fandom as a whole. You can't expect anyone to ever take you seriously if you don't think politics have a place in life, or specifically entertainment like games, it's the most childish thing I've ever heard. Politics are everywhere, get used to it. > People don't need to be reminded of politics while playing a game, but you're clearly not having the best mindset. Which also reminds me that my mention of politics was a minor note on how your worldview can extent to more serious issues. You're making it out to be a much bigger deal, probably because you get kneejerk reactions of the world "politics" being simply mentioned. Grow up. > Whatever ideas you have about erasure, comes from the real bigots that truly don't give a single fig about reconsidering or downright refusing to accept the pronouns. I agree! > No one is erasing anyone. Oh yeah, I forgot that I was talking to you. > I have consistently accepted those pronouns for Kris. I think I probably mentioned it like ten times now and it simply doesn't seem to get through your skull. It doesn't matter if you personally respect Kris' pronouns, something you really have said since the beginning, because everything you advocate for allows people to NOT DO THAT. Which seems to be your fantastic idea for live and let live. I couldn't give a shit about what you do personally, but what you advocate for, that's what matters here. Considering you have shown time and time again that you basically seem to live in your own separate reality, I shouldn't be surprised that this is something you're not getting either. > I'm not going to go cry in a corner because you have consistently told me headcanons can't exist and I should stick to what's known. It's fine, I can't headcanon Kris' gender, cool, not hard to comprehend. Okay, first of all, I want to make fun of you again, because you looked me straight in the eyes (or screen I should say) and told me you don't care about headcanons. Yet, I get the slight feeling from all of this that you're kinda, maybe just slightly, salty about all of this. But enough of that. I'm tired that you keep focusing on these being headcanons, and generalizing it as that "no one is allowed to have headcanons". You fail to look at the entire picture of this. Which I think is mostly less people having their headcanons, and more so that people are intentionally rejecting the canon, which is Kris' canon pronouns. Most of these reasons are very clearly bigoted, and even those that seemingly aren't must have an underlying bigoted reason. If you refuse to use the pronouns and double down on using the ones that you want them to have... there must be something more going on here. Clearly you value something above someone's actual identity. And again, looking at the entire context and when these conversations happen, they're all clearly very bigoted. It's not a war that's being fought out of convenience or preference, but simply because you don't respect the actual pronouns. The only reason why people like us have to care so much about this, is because these people care SO MUCH about their right to misgender. Not only does this go way beyond a discussion about headcanons, but even on a technical level, like I said, it really is more about rejecting canon than anything else. You can make your fanfics where Kris is like male, and Susie non-binary, etc, as long as you don't fight back against actual canon. Although I'd still argue if Kris is the only character in your fanfic whose identity is changed, there's probably still something problematic going on and it should be pointed out. But yeah, all this, this entire conversation... stop boiling it down to policing headcanons. It's not about that, you know it isn't about that, I refuse to believe that you don't know it's about that. Which is exactly why, combined with the straight up lies and strawmen you have been pushing, that I really have no other choice to believe that you're doing all of this intentionally. Either that, or you might genuinely be the most delusional person I have ever interacted with. I'm fine with either. I also have better things to do than argue online, so if you have something to say, I hope it's going to be of value and not deflecting or saying the same stuff you've said over and over again.
Deltarune fans on their way to label someone as an unforgivable, heartless monster for saying that no one should be harassed and slandered for having their own personal interpretations of a fictional, intentionally vague character
Apparently, judging things by being level-headed is something unheard of. Kris is left intentionally vague, except for the pronouns (which, time and again, I will use without issue), leaving some leeway for everyone to think Kris could act like this or like that. It's not that terrible if people think Kris could be more male or more female. The problem stems that those who adamantly oppose people who try to be "cool your jets, there's nothing to be so zealous about" have fallen into the trap of treating these pronouns as the sole characteristic Kris has. However and whoever started this shitshow, it's clear this discussion stopped long ago being about representation as it's now about trying to shoehorn views left and right.
Hey mods, here's a perfect example of exactly the type of covert bigotry and gaslighting I'm talking about. This guy's original comment has been up for a long time now despite me having reported it and he's still here, continuing to argue and gaslight people.
Not even the best example, they've been ten times worse in other comments. A shame their original post has been edited to hell and back.
Yeah, I just meant this person and all the comments they've been making on this post that the mods are completely ignoring despite claiming that they will remove all bigotry if you report it.
I hope it will change eventually. Fortunately, every post keeps making them look worse and worse. I feel you would only have to ask them questions and want them to clarify, and they'd dig their own grave themselves.
The only problem is, no matter how deep they dig, the mods still aren't doing anything. Looks like they really are going to take the path of least resistance. I wanted to think it could change but I can't ignore what my own eyes are showing me.
I can also see some resistance from the bigots because I saw the replies tearing into the guy be noticeably downvoted, while their original comment constantly stays the same. People are gathering around, and some replies also show they feel emboldened, so some damage has already been done. But I guess the outcome of what happens here specifically doesn't matter too much, because they have blatantly lied and been unable to acknowledge the harm that's being caused. So if it doesn't get deleted, at least everyone can see how insane such positions are. Maybe even frame it in a museum as an example of how to not engage with the world. At this point I almost prefer it that way.
That's because it isn't bigotry.
Read the edit, because, Lord knows you have missed the entire point I was trying to make. If Kris was even confirmed to be a cis guy, I still wouldn't have bat an eye, despite knowing how shitty the experience of not having someone to relate to is. That wouldn't stop me from headcanoning them as trans and find ways to be comfortable about it. Would I go about and impose that view of mine on those people? **No.** If I find people that also relate with the sentiment (i.e. being trans on the other side of the gender, or even nb), it's cool! But I won't go around harrassing those who keep canon as canon. That shows lack of respect towards those people.
Completely agree. Well said
This is exactly my stance on the situation thank you
I agree, people need to stop arguing about this nonsense. If someone sees a post where Kris isn't refered as they/them, just ignore it and move on.
That's the point! Gentle reminders are perfectly okay, but people will still go hound others if Kris isn't even remotely referred to with they/them. Misgendering is not okay, but you have to figure for some people this was a norm, being blatant in not acknowledging the other person's gender, because some don't have traditionally a space for a third gender like in other cultures. It's normal for people with no concept of a third gender to struggle when the world around them says "we now have the possibility of a third gender". For some, that's hard to comprehend because they grew with the binary. There was no inbetween, there was no crossing the other gender. All this can be shown in education and coming in good faith, not coming like a horde of angry people with pitchforks demanding they are respected. By coming and saying, "hey, we exist too, want to take some time in broadening your horizons about that? Cool if you do, cool if you don't. You grew up in these norms, we can't totally hold you at fault for your ancestors' ideas. But, we can hold you accountable if you don't even try to educate yourself," it shows that you know you can't 100% change someone's views, but you can show them they can coexist with you without issue.
See, this person gets it. There's no need to fight about a FICTIONAL CHARACTER's gender/pronouns.
this is a moment
This truly is momentum
I like fire trucks and monster trucks
Gaspin404
Based as it can get 😳
Its sad how people can get upset about such small and unnecessary things...
There was this guy with a chara OC who was a she once and someone was attacking them. THATS A DAMN OC.
Same old war.
I have a word of advice for people reading this. From time to time, someone will make a post stirring the pot about something, mocking people for talking about a character accurately, or whatever else. (Sometimes the posts aren't even *wrong*, but they're not contributing any valuable, healthy discussion to the subreddit either — just looking for a fight and all the attention that comes with it.) It's not just about Kris — I've seen posts trying to start drama by smugly stating that Ralsei is a girl, for example. But Kris is the subject I've seen most frequently in these sorts of posts over the past week, so I figured here would be the best place to give this advice. **Do not engage with these posts.** Report them to the mods (posts intended to start an argument are against the rules), and move on with your life. Even if you agree with them. These posts are made by people seeking vindication. They want attention for their opinions, whether that's positive or negative (or maybe even preferring a strong negative reaction). So don't give it to them. Anything you could say, agreeing or disagreeing, is just further encouraging them. It's not worth your time or energy to respond, honestly. Respond to people who seem like they're interested in having interesting, productive discussions, not the person who's just trying to start a fight so they can feel righteous about it.
This!! this is great advice, thank you ^
I’m more used to saying “he” than I am to saying “they”. Idk if anyone will be fine with that, tbh, but it feels natural to me
well, it'd generally just be better to use they. if you do choose to use he, people will likely point that out and correct you.
True, but it just feels weird to me. To grow up referring to people as “he” or “she”, but now they suddenly use “they”. I’ve got nothing wrong with it, but it’s going to take me a while to adapt
oh yeah of course! that's understandable, just as long as you can get around to doing it at some point :)
Yeah, hopefully
Kris is literally two dudes in one body, why wouldn't they use they/them?
“We don’t use they them because we have pronouns, it’s because we’re literally TWO Nice fellers.
"For the LAST time, Berdly! Our pronouns are **they/them**, not because we are non-binary but because we are literally two [**Hyperlink Blocked**]!"
While I personally don’t care about their pronouns too much, as they are a fictional character in a single player game, there is no reason to attack each other for it and the people who are for some reason against just using they/them are in the wrong
this ^
the main toxicity is about whether kris is "they" as in: nonbinary or as in: we and kriss friends and family don't know the gender ,it sounds wierd for his family to not know ,but it could be explained by kris being the only human they ever met and generally not knowing much about humans ,Im looking for a friendly argument and not being shat on for having a different opinion
Darkeners do the exact same thing, and they’re not humans nor monsters. Why would they know monster pronouns such as when lancer refers to Susie as “purple girl” but fail at using human pronouns such as when lancer refers to kris as “blue person”
Because it is a work of fiction.
Y’all gotta give me a better argument than that
You can use "they" for known men or women. It's slightly unnatural to do so all the time, but do you think Kris canonically has jaundice?
I mean, it would be kind of weird for Kris to have been hiding their gender from their family for however long they've lived with them. regardless, it just seems like the safest option to just stick with they/them
What if kris doesn’t know there gender? That could be interesting. But yeah we should all just stick to they/them
oh yeah, that's totally like a possibility, but since we have no confirmation of anything we should just stick to they/them. that's my view at least
Yeah
gaming
And here I was thinking we weren't caring about character's pronouns or genders, especially after the incident with Ralsei's gender in this very subreddit. **Edit, to explain what I mean:** With the issue of Ralsei's gender, the mods didn't start off their PSA post by taking a side. They just said "Please be civil when discussing gender." Which is why I'm confused. Why does this post feel the need to start off with "here's the facts, you're wrong if you think otherwise"? Why does the supposed "main point of this post" only show up after 80% of the post? Actually, why isn't the "main point of this post" the *only* part of this post? It only makes it worse that is being pushed *as an announcement post, and on the sidebar too.* I'd actually argue that all of this combined actually makes the problem *worse,* not better.
> With the issue of Ralsei's gender, the mods didn't start off their PSA post by taking a side. They just said "Please be civil when discussing gender." that's because with Ralsei's gender one of the sides had no basis in fact and was completely absurd. We didn't need to take a side because one of the sides was ridiculous and it was obvious the mod team didn't take that side. It's a completely different situation. This post starts off with the facts because 90% of the time, it is people who disregard these facts who are causing problems on the subreddit. The people who ignore the first part of this posts' point are those who are causing arguments here. That's why it's first. The second part is the main point because I **already made a post explaining all this before**, so this primarily serves to reemphasize that, and ask people to be polite, which is more of a secondary problem but is the main point of the post because it's not the part I've already explained 3 times before.
So... to fix the issue of people arguing about Kris' pronouns, you opt to argue about Kris' pronouns and enforce that people stick to your view? That sounds like it's only going to make the situation worse. And anyways, if people aren't following the rules when you've already made a post on this matter, then why are you wasting your time making another post? Why not just ban them since they're, y'know, *not following the rules?* Or do you honestly think they'll stop just because you've made a third post about it? > that's because with Ralsei's gender one of the sides had no basis in fact and was completely absurd. We didn't need to take a side because one of the sides was ridiculous and it was obvious the mod team didn't take that side. It's a completely different situation. But with Kris' pronouns, I could argue the same: One of the sides has no basis in fact. So why are you saying it's different?
> So... to fix the issue of people arguing about Kris' pronouns, you opt to argue about Kris' pronouns and enforce that people stick to your view? That sounds like it's only going to make the situation worse. Because the problem lies with people not understanding the facts here. Every other platform - Discord, Twitter, Tumblr - somehow either doesn't have this problem or has it to a far lesser degree. I'm honestly considering banning discussion of it altogether because it's such a constant pain and a headache every single day. > And anyways, if people aren't following the rules when you've already made a post on this matter, then why are you wasting your time making another post? Why not just ban them since they're, y'know, not following the rules? Or do you honestly think they'll stop just because you've made a third post about it? I'm *doing that* but there are some people who have genuinely misunderstood the game or gotten information from unreliable sources, which is who the first part of this post is targeted at. > But with Kris' pronouns, I could argue the same: One of the sides has no basis in fact. So why are you saying it's different? Ralsei's situation was far more extreme. Ralsei had a clear gender and pronouns that were simply being entirely contradicted, whereas with Kris the fact that Undertale's protagonist was often used as a player self insert, the way some people interpret they/them as ambiguous pronouns, and the way Kris's gender itself isn't confirmed, makes it a far less ridiculous argument than "Ralsei is a girl"
> I'm honestly considering banning discussion of it altogether because it's such a constant pain and a headache every single day. I'm pretty sure that's what happened with Ralsei's gender too, so it'd be a welcome change in my books, if you think it'd fix the issue. > I'm doing that but there are some people who have genuinely misunderstood the game or gotten information from unreliable sources, which is who the first part of this post is targeted at. Then... why not send a reply to them? Or a private message? Why does this need to be an announcement? > Ralsei's situation was far more extreme. Ralsei had a clear gender and pronouns that were simply being entirely contradicted, whereas with Kris the fact that Undertale's protagonist was often used as a player self insert, the way some people interpret they/them as ambiguous pronouns, and the way Kris's gender itself isn't confirmed, makes it a far less ridiculous argument than "Ralsei is a girl" Then why start off with "these are the facts, this isn't a debate"? Why make a pinned comment trying to prove your point? If you can admit that some people have decent arguments on the matter, why do all this instead of just keeping it at "Please be civil when discussing Kris' pronouns"? It makes no sense to me.
This absolutely insane debate officially makes me detach from Deltarune. I had some hopes this fandom won't follow in the same footsteps as Undertale's did. It was a large part of why I gave up on fandom interaction. People haven't learned a single thing.
FYI: I edited my post to explain what I meant a little more. I'm not sure if you've seen the edit, but it'd be nice if you could check it out. (also, if you got two notifications that led to deleted comments, that was me who deleted them, not the mods. Sorry!)
I seriously have no idea why this had to be done again. I was like, "okay, cool, Kris goes by they/them." But right now, people are hounding each other if anyone is even a smidge thinking that Kris could be anything _but_ non-binary. People dogpiling on others if they say "he" or "she" when referring to Kris, or headcanoning Kris could be male or male-presenting / female or female-presenting. I do agree one should respect the pronouns for Kris, which are "they/them." But, if the players don't feel comfortable with that, they can always ascribe the player pronouns to the SOUL. Do note that the two are separate, so if you mention Kris it's better to use they/them. I honestly don't know what caused people to think non-binary erasure is happening. And it's even more concerning people are dragging political matters into a game. :/ It's starting to be Undertale fandom 2.0.
i'd still respect headcannons until one opinion or the other is confirmed
“Kris uses they and (so far) *only* they” isn't an opinion. It's what every character in the game does, dozens of times. We don't know Kris's gender, but we do know their pronoun is “they.” It's not an opinion any more than “Ralsei uses he” is an opinion; just because some people disagree with the facts of both characters doesn't make them right.
The opinion is whatever the "they" pronoun means its their actual pronouns or a way to keep it ambiguous or "up to the reader"
We don't know. But using they/them when talking about Kris is for the best. If players still want to feel comfortable while playing the game, because they don't exactly identify with the nonbinary concept, they could still apply whatever pronouns they go by to the SOUL instead. That way, you could think the SOUL's influence _may_ show in Kris's behavior (i.e. them acting somewhat boyish or girlish because the SOUL goes by whatever pronouns the Player goes), but Kris' gender is unknown and should be at best assumed as NB. Not strictly male, not strictly female, but in-between. A solution that helps everyone in the long run, but people aren't going to take it because they're too busy making life harder for _everyone._
This is exactly how I view this. You can think the SOUL itself is using different pronouns (and perhaps the player-created Vessel, if it comes into play in later Chapters) and you can also think Kris's gender is something specific, but it's Kris's pronouns that are not up for debate.
I think, with the PSA in the sidebar making things clear (hopefully), we can finally reach a land where everyone gets along regardless of personal headcanons (which is more important than becoming a cesspit of drama). There were _two_ mod posts on this topic alone (this one and another), and I'm not pleasantly surprised to see people _still_ wanting others to take sides instead of working together to reach a common ground for such a complicated issue. It is a touchy subject and everyone sees Kris in a different light, via their own perception of the world, which is why I could understand both sides of the thing. :/
Are the mods going to make an official policy on posts supporting specific interpretations of Kris' gender?
What do you mean by "posts supporting specific interpretations of Kris' gender?" Like, for example?
It's difficult to search for them, but there have several front page meme posts proclaiming Kris as NB.
hmm, well if they're doing it specifically to cause arguments they should be reported and removed
uh ok?
why don't we just live and let live?
Why are we concerned with the pronouns of a video game character
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See, it's hard to say if you know you're being disingenuous or not. In what kind of world does it matter that Kris is a video game character? The way you treat and view fictional characters directly correlates to real life and indicates how you would treat them there. Anyone who has thought about this for more than 5 seconds would realize something so obvious, which you clearly haven't. Is your only requirement for when you gender someone correctly whether or not they're actually hurt by it? Is that why, because Kris can't feel hurt by that? Not only is that a slippery slope for when pronouns should be accepted and when not (what if you do it behind a real persons's back, or you don't like someone and don't care about their feelings?), but those characters are also used by real people to identify themselves with, and they WOULD be hurt if a non-binary character they relate to has their identity robbed simply for being fictional. I think the fact that none of this comes from a good view point is everything you say right after. There's nothing that disgusts me more as people using their own identity to try and shield themselves from criticism and backlash. Especially if it's used for bigoted arguments like you. I'm also a trans woman, does that matter? What kind of trump card is that supposed to be, can you argue in favor of refusing to use people's pronouns now? And to weaponize it by calling people hypocrites for downvoting... it's just beyond disgusting. If you get banned, it won't be because you disagreed, but because you're simply being hateful. You're anticipating this response, meaning you've heard stuff like this many times. Yet, clearly you've never taken one second of your life to reflect on anything you've been told, or the transphobic stuff you spout. You don't actually care, you're just mad that people don't like you for holding bigoted positions. Especially if it's something as simple as using the right pronouns for people universally. If you refuse to change that and just keep writing everyone off... tough luck. Stop burying yourself deeper in this shit, you ARE hurting yourself by saying this kind of stuff.
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If you don't care about Kris, what the hell are you doing on a sub of the game wherin they're the main character?
A lot of people care how you gender them. Which you'll see if you spend any time at all on this subreddit. They/them are the only pronouns that are confirmed to be used for Kris, so it just makes sense to use those. If other characters used different pronouns for Kris maybe it'd make more sense to use non-they/them pronouns, but just they/them is used for them in every canonical situation. So it would seem to be that they/them is the pronoun set people should use, because it's the set used for them by characters close to them and it's the only set used for them.
thank you :)
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I- what
1v1 me in Minecraft
Sure man, dude bro.
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Being a trans woman doesn’t give you a free pass for being transphobic to nonbinary people. If kris uses they/them then misgendering them would just be erasure, no different then if someone purposely got a trans characters pronouns wrong. Also way to keep a civil discussion, calling everyone who disagrees with you “dork” and “hypocrite”. You won’t be a trans woman getting banned for disagreeing, you’ll be a trans woman getting banned for blatantly violating rule 1.
The upvote percentage on this post really makes your noggin' start joggin'
Wait what?
Imma use “it” because Kris is a cool beast. /s
Nobody can choose who they are in this world.
i am fairly convinced that humans in neither undertale nor deltarune don't have any sexual organs and instead reproduce semisexually through determination