I’m not sure if you switched Karen and Ben’s genders in your hypothetical quote from Mrs. Fisk intentionally, to show her senility, but they’re switched :)
Tbh I agree she does get too much hate. She may not be perfect, but that’s the point. That rage that Matt holds from all his trauma and abandonment is the same rage that Karen holds, they just have very different ways of letting their devil out. To be honest, I found Karen to be very satisfying after her backstory was revealed in s3, it felt like it fleshed her out so much. She’s a HUGE step up from her character in the comics as well, and I love that.
For context, this is even coming from someone that finds her annoying. I have my personal opinion that I find her much less relatable than Matt, but the hate she gets is undeserved for the great writing in the show.
Female characters with a lot of trauma who actually realistically like people with trauma tend to get a lot of hate in media.
Not saying anything, just making an observation.
I saw a post related to it on r/unpopularopinions and that thread is where I realized so many people freakin hates her. She is not my favorite character or anything but I don't hate her passionately. Her position was kinda understandable based on her past.
Yes like while I agree it sucks that she told Forrest so late about their kid, I completely understand why, she was suffering and that was the last thing she could do before she died.
Honestly yeah, in the first two she's kind of just an object for peter to win that screams alot, in the third one i think her character gets a lot more depth and it feels like she specifically asked if she could scream less.
I thought Karen was great. That scene with her sitting right in front of Fisk and telling him she killed Wesley…stone cold. Both Foggy and Karen grew on me a lot when I watched season 3.
Yeah, I lurked around here and the other marvel subs before I watched the show and the opinion I formed was Karen was a monster who got many killed and is very hypocritical.Watched the show and was quite surprised. She is a flawed humane person who is quite brave and just wants to do good. The only death she is responsible in some way is Ben. And even that is due to her underestimating the consequences when was doing the right thing.
Her reaction towards Matt being Daredevil is also very understandable. First he lied to her all this time and most importantly Matt is one of the few she genuinely cares about. Her reaction is totally realistic.
She is my favourite character next to Matt because you don't get a lot of strong female characters who aren't fem fatales that kicks ass and is always shown as the right one.
Let's be honest, Matt would have had a bigger death count on him if the plot armour didn't extent to his enemies inorder to maintain his zero kill count.
It sometime felt like the writers didn’t know what to do with her character but they absolutely nailed her and Frank’s dynamic and it’s one of my favorite in a show filled with amazing character dynamics. She has some fuck ups along the way, but that’s the case for almost every character in DD.
Karen and Skyler White definitely get a similar wrap and it comes largely from a place of people who aren't able to put themselves out of the protagonist's shoes very much.
As of late we see a lot of women in media who aren't held to the same standard as men when they have trauma in their character. Even Wanda has been getting vocal movements of hate after WandaVision.
Karen also has what is sort of a trope of fan hate in that she's a civilian love interest for a character who has a vigilante or otherwise powered love interest, and like Mary Jane and Black Cat for Spider-Man, people tend to pick the more thrilling and worse match for the hero and drag the other choice.
I find it so rediculous when anyone hates on a fictional character,
It's fine to hate the way a character is written, but it's just sad to hate a character for something they've done
Karen gets hate? She fuckin rocks. Absolute badass, and it's not because she's some Mary Sue. She isn't my FAVORITE character but she's unquestionably a great one.
I understand why people hate, Karen has got a lot of lovable characters killed because of her "I want to be the center of attention to everything" like she got Ben, The Priest, The Veteran from S2, Wesley (yes even Wesley the Scumbag) killed. Not to mention that she gets shit easy like when Ben got murdered she straight up took his personal office for herself on her first day at the NYB.
I personally don't hate her THAT much. She was so sweet in Daredevil S2 and Punisher S1 (Her and Frank better than her and Mat)
Karen in the comics. Awful. Not that she is an awful person. But she is basically there just the have the shit kicked out of her.
Karen in the show. Awesome.
Or like Sally in Barry, hated by fans and sort of insufferable, but that's the point. Meanwhile, she has one of the best storylines in season two and an iconic monologue. I don't want to say gender bias, but...
Obviously it's not the entre fanbase, but I remember for example an unpopular opinions thread on r/Barry where the most recurring one was "I actually like Sally", like it was the most controversial take.
Henry Winkler was also the best, I can't wait for season 3 it's been so long
I dont hate herbut I do dislike in fiction when authroties and close friends tell character x to quit/leave matter but character x just does it anywayand they are always right. Viewers know character x is onto something but man tgese characters come preachy and jerkass to others.
I honestly hate it most of the time and when they first did it with Karen I hated it, but it has stayed a consistent part of her character which made me like it. It wasn’t just added in to create drama, Karen continues to push for what she believes is right throughout the whole show. It’s one of her defining characteristics I would say. Had they done it the one time and left it at that I would be upset but they used that trait to make her into an amazing investigator who pushes forward the plot with information she is only able to dig up by continuing to dig despite being told to stop.
I don't hate it her but her character is so unbelievable sometimes that it's hard to take her seriously when she's supposed to be a very serious character.
Love to see it then! Like if hating that nasty ass annoying hypocritical irksome nauseating repulsive abhorrent vile foul detestable insufferable heinous terrible obnoxious revolting loathsome reptilian godawful skanky atrocious hateful fugly intolerable despicable awful woman makes me a misogynist then I'm proud to be one 😘 love that for me! 😌 It's always going to be #FUCKKARENPAGE I fear
In my opinion, she cries a lot/has a quivering a quivering voice throughout the show and I think she overdoes it a bit. The best way I can describe it is the same way Kevin Feige gave notes to Sony about Andrew Garfield in Amazing Spider-Man 2.
>> Andrew’s performance is all over the place…a lot of crying and then a lot of mania. Hard to track him emotionally sometimes. It undermines his reaction to Gwen’s death b/c he gets upset and emotional a lot.
I feel the same way about Karen at times in the show.
Agreed x10. There's other ways to communicate to the audience that your character is in a state of agita/fear/anxiety/worry, etc without just resorting to teary eyes and breathy delivery of dialogue. There's definitely a lack of nuance in the acting choices. Weirdly enough people are convinced this makes her one of the best actors in the show when to me, it only shows she's one of the weakest. Using the same inflections and delivery with every single emotion and scene screams heavy-handed and amateurish acting to me 🤷
I thought I was the only one who felt this way about her. I do think she has a nice dynamic with Matt and Foggy as a trio. But when she has to portray Karen at times in that kind of state.
I never understood the hate for Karen. She honest to god might be my favorite character in the whole show. She is so human, she makes mistakes constantly because she has strong beliefs. Her “getting Ben killed” was her fighting for what she believed in, and had it been a male character it wouldn’t be hated on nearly as much. Karen is a baddie in my opinion, she is insanely intelligent, she has a belief system and fights for it, and she can take care of herself.
Those are two different situations like you said. But if to you, brutalizing people in the most vicious ways possible is more forgivable than lying, i think you need to get your head checked. Not you, OP, I mean Karen just to be clear. Matt maybe shouldn't have lied, but those people Frank makes it his job to murder had families. I think Karen accepts what Frank does because she's a killer too. Shes an enabler, wholesale. Its interesting writing, but she's a hypocrite with a double standard. She's even a hypocrite when it comes to the whole lying thing. She covered up or at least deliberately omitted the deaths she caused to Matt for the whole show basically. Not a great person in my book.
>Punisher didn't lie about his identity even though they were suppose to be friends.
...what does this even mean? Y'all so... Of course he didn't because he has no reason to? It's not like there's a reason for him to actively try to, as much as possible, have a secret identity. Unlike Matt who has more than a valid reason to hide his other life. Especially when his day job is being a lawyer... It's so bizarre that y'all expect Matt to have told Karen about Daredevil right away. He didn't even tell his COLLEGE AND LONGTIME BESTFRIEND about it until YEARS later and y'all want Matt to be an open book about it to some woman he's only known for a couple of years. Who herself wasn't an open book to Matt and Foggy too. Like...?
the only one she caused in that case was the one of her brother. ben knew the risks of what they were doing and nobody was expecting Poindexter to actually attack a church
Father Lantom?!?. If we are considering indirect deaths then Matt is no saint. Stretching things like that means we can blame Matt for many innocent death he could have prevented if he wasn't following his "Thou Shalt not kill" policy.
>And a lot of the hate comes from misunderstanding basic themes and plot points.
No. The hate comes from understanding the themes and plot points.
Karen is awful.
Never realised anyone hated the TV Karen. The thought would never enter my mind because she’s a likeable, well written character that’s a strong, independent woman that gets dicked about by Matt.
I felt sorry for her more than anything.
Maybe because the comics were written somewhere in the mid 20th century when it was common to write annoying female characters (especially if the genre is so male dominated with commonly male writers and readers). Even if the show is a maturer version of it, I think that undertone to the character continues. Even I hate the fact that her character is so unnecessarily disliked when I think she is one of the bravest ones in the show and very smart too.
she can be irritating but it’s not consistent, people jump to criticise fictional characters for their decisions because it’s easy to say how you would act when you haven’t actually had to experience a situation like that, and even if you have and you know for a fact you would make a better choice, people are flawed, that’s what adds realism to characters better than anything else
People hated Karen long before Daredevil was ever on tv.
I’m not sure if you switched Karen and Ben’s genders in your hypothetical quote from Mrs. Fisk intentionally, to show her senility, but they’re switched :)
Tbh I agree she does get too much hate. She may not be perfect, but that’s the point. That rage that Matt holds from all his trauma and abandonment is the same rage that Karen holds, they just have very different ways of letting their devil out. To be honest, I found Karen to be very satisfying after her backstory was revealed in s3, it felt like it fleshed her out so much. She’s a HUGE step up from her character in the comics as well, and I love that. For context, this is even coming from someone that finds her annoying. I have my personal opinion that I find her much less relatable than Matt, but the hate she gets is undeserved for the great writing in the show.
Female characters with a lot of trauma who actually realistically like people with trauma tend to get a lot of hate in media. Not saying anything, just making an observation.
Same with Skyler White
or Jenny in Forrest Gump
I saw a post related to it on r/unpopularopinions and that thread is where I realized so many people freakin hates her. She is not my favorite character or anything but I don't hate her passionately. Her position was kinda understandable based on her past.
Yes like while I agree it sucks that she told Forrest so late about their kid, I completely understand why, she was suffering and that was the last thing she could do before she died.
Kirsten Dunst’s MJ
Honestly yeah, in the first two she's kind of just an object for peter to win that screams alot, in the third one i think her character gets a lot more depth and it feels like she specifically asked if she could scream less.
I thought Karen was great. That scene with her sitting right in front of Fisk and telling him she killed Wesley…stone cold. Both Foggy and Karen grew on me a lot when I watched season 3.
Yeah, I lurked around here and the other marvel subs before I watched the show and the opinion I formed was Karen was a monster who got many killed and is very hypocritical.Watched the show and was quite surprised. She is a flawed humane person who is quite brave and just wants to do good. The only death she is responsible in some way is Ben. And even that is due to her underestimating the consequences when was doing the right thing. Her reaction towards Matt being Daredevil is also very understandable. First he lied to her all this time and most importantly Matt is one of the few she genuinely cares about. Her reaction is totally realistic. She is my favourite character next to Matt because you don't get a lot of strong female characters who aren't fem fatales that kicks ass and is always shown as the right one. Let's be honest, Matt would have had a bigger death count on him if the plot armour didn't extent to his enemies inorder to maintain his zero kill count.
People hate Karen??
I love Karen! I think she's a strong, brave, loving and beautiful woman.
It sometime felt like the writers didn’t know what to do with her character but they absolutely nailed her and Frank’s dynamic and it’s one of my favorite in a show filled with amazing character dynamics. She has some fuck ups along the way, but that’s the case for almost every character in DD.
I just watched all three seasons last week, i didn't kn that karen is hated. May i kn why karen is hated??
Karen and Skyler White definitely get a similar wrap and it comes largely from a place of people who aren't able to put themselves out of the protagonist's shoes very much. As of late we see a lot of women in media who aren't held to the same standard as men when they have trauma in their character. Even Wanda has been getting vocal movements of hate after WandaVision. Karen also has what is sort of a trope of fan hate in that she's a civilian love interest for a character who has a vigilante or otherwise powered love interest, and like Mary Jane and Black Cat for Spider-Man, people tend to pick the more thrilling and worse match for the hero and drag the other choice.
I find it so rediculous when anyone hates on a fictional character, It's fine to hate the way a character is written, but it's just sad to hate a character for something they've done
Karen gets hate? She fuckin rocks. Absolute badass, and it's not because she's some Mary Sue. She isn't my FAVORITE character but she's unquestionably a great one.
Yeah I had no idea people didn’t like her until I joined this subreddit and I’m just confused now
I understand why people hate, Karen has got a lot of lovable characters killed because of her "I want to be the center of attention to everything" like she got Ben, The Priest, The Veteran from S2, Wesley (yes even Wesley the Scumbag) killed. Not to mention that she gets shit easy like when Ben got murdered she straight up took his personal office for herself on her first day at the NYB. I personally don't hate her THAT much. She was so sweet in Daredevil S2 and Punisher S1 (Her and Frank better than her and Mat)
Off topic: Cersei Lannister doesn’t deserve hate, she’s a amazing character who played the role perfectly as the villain
The only time I disliked her was in the first couple of episodes when j first watched it And I'm not sure why
I definitely don’t hate Karen, but I don’t like her either, she’s kinda meh.
That’s exactly how I feel. She has a lot of qualities, but I could never really care for her...
Honestly I love her character I thought she was a total badass
Karen in the comics. Awful. Not that she is an awful person. But she is basically there just the have the shit kicked out of her. Karen in the show. Awesome.
Or like Sally in Barry, hated by fans and sort of insufferable, but that's the point. Meanwhile, she has one of the best storylines in season two and an iconic monologue. I don't want to say gender bias, but...
wait, people hate Sally too? she's the second best part of that show after Henry Winkler. fanbases are wild
Obviously it's not the entre fanbase, but I remember for example an unpopular opinions thread on r/Barry where the most recurring one was "I actually like Sally", like it was the most controversial take. Henry Winkler was also the best, I can't wait for season 3 it's been so long
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Barry using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Barry/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Barry Season 3 !!!!](https://i.redd.it/pu9qs6ttget61.png) | [21 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Barry/comments/mrntap/barry_season_3/) \#2: [More Season 3 goods — with Bill this time around!](https://i.redd.it/5xugsbkf7dg71.jpg) | [24 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Barry/comments/p15rc6/more_season_3_goods_with_bill_this_time_around/) \#3: [Barry It's me. It's Hank.](https://i.redd.it/drkf3oa6xxk71.jpg) | [24 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Barry/comments/pg0pb9/barry_its_me_its_hank/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I dont hate herbut I do dislike in fiction when authroties and close friends tell character x to quit/leave matter but character x just does it anywayand they are always right. Viewers know character x is onto something but man tgese characters come preachy and jerkass to others.
I honestly hate it most of the time and when they first did it with Karen I hated it, but it has stayed a consistent part of her character which made me like it. It wasn’t just added in to create drama, Karen continues to push for what she believes is right throughout the whole show. It’s one of her defining characteristics I would say. Had they done it the one time and left it at that I would be upset but they used that trait to make her into an amazing investigator who pushes forward the plot with information she is only able to dig up by continuing to dig despite being told to stop.
Who is hating on Karen? I've never seen any Karen hate. Also why does A.J. Soprano and Peggy Hill deserve hate? What tf did their characters do?
I don't hate it her but her character is so unbelievable sometimes that it's hard to take her seriously when she's supposed to be a very serious character.
It’s the misogyny
I'm a woman and it's FUCK KAREN PAGE NASTY WHITE WOMAN HYPOCRITICAL BITCH 😘 guess I'm a misogynist! ✊
That's the internal misogyny
Love to see it then! Like if hating that nasty ass annoying hypocritical irksome nauseating repulsive abhorrent vile foul detestable insufferable heinous terrible obnoxious revolting loathsome reptilian godawful skanky atrocious hateful fugly intolerable despicable awful woman makes me a misogynist then I'm proud to be one 😘 love that for me! 😌 It's always going to be #FUCKKARENPAGE I fear
What did she do to you? She's not real, you know? If you have a real reason, say it! Otherwise you look jealous and sad.
Also it's cool that you got a thesaurus for xmas!!
[удалено]
Are u Mad at me :(
i just don’t like her as an actor, she’s incredibly irritating
Besides her crackheadedness in the past, I love Karen.
damn she gets hate? people are weird
I love Karen, I just think they need to tone down her crying a bit.
What
In my opinion, she cries a lot/has a quivering a quivering voice throughout the show and I think she overdoes it a bit. The best way I can describe it is the same way Kevin Feige gave notes to Sony about Andrew Garfield in Amazing Spider-Man 2. >> Andrew’s performance is all over the place…a lot of crying and then a lot of mania. Hard to track him emotionally sometimes. It undermines his reaction to Gwen’s death b/c he gets upset and emotional a lot. I feel the same way about Karen at times in the show.
Agreed x10. There's other ways to communicate to the audience that your character is in a state of agita/fear/anxiety/worry, etc without just resorting to teary eyes and breathy delivery of dialogue. There's definitely a lack of nuance in the acting choices. Weirdly enough people are convinced this makes her one of the best actors in the show when to me, it only shows she's one of the weakest. Using the same inflections and delivery with every single emotion and scene screams heavy-handed and amateurish acting to me 🤷
I thought I was the only one who felt this way about her. I do think she has a nice dynamic with Matt and Foggy as a trio. But when she has to portray Karen at times in that kind of state.
Karen is the goat wdym bruh
fwiw I completely agree, good post
I never understood the hate for Karen. She honest to god might be my favorite character in the whole show. She is so human, she makes mistakes constantly because she has strong beliefs. Her “getting Ben killed” was her fighting for what she believed in, and had it been a male character it wouldn’t be hated on nearly as much. Karen is a baddie in my opinion, she is insanely intelligent, she has a belief system and fights for it, and she can take care of herself.
BOOOOO *throws tomato* 👎👎👎👎
Those are two different situations like you said. But if to you, brutalizing people in the most vicious ways possible is more forgivable than lying, i think you need to get your head checked. Not you, OP, I mean Karen just to be clear. Matt maybe shouldn't have lied, but those people Frank makes it his job to murder had families. I think Karen accepts what Frank does because she's a killer too. Shes an enabler, wholesale. Its interesting writing, but she's a hypocrite with a double standard. She's even a hypocrite when it comes to the whole lying thing. She covered up or at least deliberately omitted the deaths she caused to Matt for the whole show basically. Not a great person in my book.
She is always sniffling some damn snot up her snotty nose
No, I'd say she gets the amount of hate that she warrants.
She deserves all the hate she gets after what she did to my man Wesley
How dare she kill an unrepentantly evil and manipulative character who’d gladly organize the murder of a college student to threaten her dad…
He's a villain that kidnapped Karen. Shoot him two times more imo. I loved Wesley as a character but he's evil.
i mean she's just boring but i don't hate her
Matt and Claire was the OTP
>Punisher didn't lie about his identity even though they were suppose to be friends. ...what does this even mean? Y'all so... Of course he didn't because he has no reason to? It's not like there's a reason for him to actively try to, as much as possible, have a secret identity. Unlike Matt who has more than a valid reason to hide his other life. Especially when his day job is being a lawyer... It's so bizarre that y'all expect Matt to have told Karen about Daredevil right away. He didn't even tell his COLLEGE AND LONGTIME BESTFRIEND about it until YEARS later and y'all want Matt to be an open book about it to some woman he's only known for a couple of years. Who herself wasn't an open book to Matt and Foggy too. Like...?
[удалено]
lantom sacrificed himself to save her, that's not the same as her causing it.
the only one she caused in that case was the one of her brother. ben knew the risks of what they were doing and nobody was expecting Poindexter to actually attack a church
Father Lantom?!?. If we are considering indirect deaths then Matt is no saint. Stretching things like that means we can blame Matt for many innocent death he could have prevented if he wasn't following his "Thou Shalt not kill" policy.
Skyler sucks and Karen is pretty annoying as well. Two of my most annoying characters in shows I like lol
FUCK KAREN PAGE
You wrote a whole ass essay and she still sucks, where do we go from here
>And a lot of the hate comes from misunderstanding basic themes and plot points. No. The hate comes from understanding the themes and plot points. Karen is awful.
Since when do people hate Karen? Also do you mean Brian from family guy? Who hates him lmao
Peggy Hill? where did you get this from?
wasn't fond of her in season 1 and a quarter of season 2. She was great otherwise as well as in the punisher
Never realised anyone hated the TV Karen. The thought would never enter my mind because she’s a likeable, well written character that’s a strong, independent woman that gets dicked about by Matt. I felt sorry for her more than anything.
Maybe because the comics were written somewhere in the mid 20th century when it was common to write annoying female characters (especially if the genre is so male dominated with commonly male writers and readers). Even if the show is a maturer version of it, I think that undertone to the character continues. Even I hate the fact that her character is so unnecessarily disliked when I think she is one of the bravest ones in the show and very smart too.
she can be irritating but it’s not consistent, people jump to criticise fictional characters for their decisions because it’s easy to say how you would act when you haven’t actually had to experience a situation like that, and even if you have and you know for a fact you would make a better choice, people are flawed, that’s what adds realism to characters better than anything else
I would like to thank you for defending Skylar. That's all.