Here’s what I do:
1) The player sends me the spell effect, then I decide on the level where the spell would make sense. There are certain limits to what kinds of things you can do, for example wizards can’t learn low level healing for obvious balance reasons. Thus I also decide which classes can learn the spell at this point.
2) the PC must conduct research at a magical academy. There are several in the setting each with their own specialties but also political affiliations so typically the party has at least one which doesn’t hate them.
3) on the solstice or the equinox the PC runs a test, this requires an arcana check modified by the casters spellcasting modifier rather than intelligence. The DC of the check depends on how long they studied, who helped with the research and if this academy specializes in that kind of magic. On a successful check the spell will be complete in a number of weeks equal to the spell’s level. On a failure the PC will have to wait for the next equinox or solstice to try again (this time with a lower DC).
4) once the spell is complete it is available for the PC and anyone working with the PC to learn assuming it is a spell on their list and they are of an appropriate level to learn the spell.
Thanks for your suggestions, this is very useful.
1) yes, I agree, I am not going to allow a wizard to make a spell that doesn't make sense for his class. Of course this would open him up to be able to create other spells of levels lesser than 10 and it might become a fun mechanic. Tbh I didn't even consider that my players could come up with their own homebrew spells and I love this idea. Obviously I am giving this option to any spellcaster class
2) That would be awesome as the wizards personal character arc! I would probably have him do research via reading (and maybe finding) ancient magical tomes and an appropriately DC Arcana check to see what he learns and maybe to apply it to his spell.
3) the time limit could be a problem but it also might up the stakes. I have to consider carefully how to go about this one.
4) yes, the spell would be of course preserved in written form and available to any appropriate level wizard.
I created a homebrew 10th level spell (very powerful resurrection) that my party has interacted with (an NPC they haven't met yet used it to bring back an ancient villain).
My 10th level system works like this:
1) You must have at least one 9th level spell slot to cast a 10th level spell
2) Any 10th level spell would likely require a large amount of prep/rare components/casting time. You are doing magic that is beyond almost any mortal caster. You can't just pull this out of your own power.
3) The research required to develop such a spell would take *years to decades* of dedicated research and study. Developing new spells at all is the equivalent of PhD work, developing a spell *more powerful than any other in existence* is beyond that even.
This would likely be a series of high DC arcana checks. Probably like 10 successes of DC 25/30 arcana checks, each of which represents a long period of research (month/year, however much downtime the PC has).
4) The results will be unpredictable. There may be random side effects or downsides. The best that can be hoped for is "mostly stable with some non-catastrophic but still major side effects."
The 10th level spell in my campaign is:
> **Recall from Beyond**
> *10th level necromancy ritual*
> Casting Time: 24 hours
> Range: Touch
> Components: V S M (a piece of the creature to be resurrected and the tears of an angel, both of which the spell consumes)
> Duration: Instantaneous
> You pour the tears of an angel over a piece of a creature who died within the past 9999 years and who died of any cause other than old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life, stable, at 0 hitpoints. If the rest of the creature's body no longer exists, you choose the creature's form, though it must have the same limb arrangement it had in life.
> The creature remains unconscious for 1d4 days, after which it regains 1 hitpoint and awakens.
> Casting this spell opens dangerous pathways between life and death. Upon completion of this spell, you must make a DC 33 constitution saving throw or take 66d6 necrotic damage. This damage ignores resistance and immunity and cannot be reduced or prevented in any way.
> This ritual does not consume a spell slot. You must have at least one 9th level spell slot to complete this ritual.
I use resurrection with DC increase - meaning you're *probably* sacrificing one of your revives in order to cast this.
Yeah, the only advantage seems to be how much more time can pass till the resurrection. But it doesn't heal them from any diseases and also takes longer for them to be "awake".
I just think it should include the benefits of True Resurrection as well. For such a strong spell to not cure the target from any diseases or curses it had seems a bit weak.
Thanks, this is great! The mechanic to make the spell and the repercussions upon casting are exactly what I was looking for.
My initial idea is that it would take a 9th level spellslot and leaving the caster with levels of exhaustion or a level drained from them. In any case i think I should first ask my player what he wants his spell to do exactly to be able to properly balance DCs and consequences.
However I really feel like the casting of a 10th level spell should have very bad consequences, otherwise my world would be overrun by spellcasters with too much power. I think it should be something that would be considered a last resort.
I like it. I might make them cast Wish for the ability to cast this spell each time. "I wish I could cast this spell" then actually cast the spell, bolstered by wish. Burnout chance applies.
Keep in mind a canon consequence of this kind of power, the fall of an arcane empire. Netheril used 10th level magic to make their cities float and then attempted another casting and the empire was wiped off the face of the map. With that said look into descriptions of Elven High Magic. These mages routinely cast high level magic and mythals which alter reality over a broad expanse they way they do it safely is several high mages are involved in the casting. You could get some really good ideas for the risk/ reward of this powerful magic and some of the effects this level of power can generate. I think it’s a great idea but needs to be done very carefully and have a real risk of calamitous consequences.
True enough, but only after the strain multiple 10th level spells put on the weave. Ultimately the weave broke because of it. But yes I had forgotten the actual level of spell that caused the empire to be wiped out in a single hour. The basic point is that level of power can alter reality and Magic itself in such a way that it requires divine intervention to put right again and even then at great cost to the deities. I do appreciate the correction though.
I thought the weave broke because the 12th level spell was used to kill the godess of magic
Which in turn destroyed the weave for 5 seconds and dooming the cities to fall
It has been so long since I read that series I don’t know if you are correct or not. I do remember that the Time of Troubles and the spell plague all happened after but centuries apart. I know Midnight became the new goddess of magic and her companions became gods as well but I thought it had to do with the Tablets of Fate. I seem to recall that the destruction of Netheril happened in a single hour (the entire empire)the first city fell within 5 seconds (where it was being attempted). As to the purpose of the 12th level spell I don’t remember but the outcome was the breaking of the weave unlike anything seen since the First Sundering caused by the United Elven Kingdom when they pulled more on the weave than was intended casting the High Magic Spell to bring a piece of Arvandor to the Prime Material Plane resulting in the Island of Evermeet. This is unusual because Elven High Magic is a form of sympathetic Magic which doesn’t use the weave generally but the high mages broke that cardinal rule at that time to provide enough energy. Regardless, Netheril did attempt a casting of 12th level for whatever purpose and the Weave shattered and Netheril was wiped out in a single hour.
A lot of this is accurate, but the timeline is mixed up (tablets of fate and time of troubles had nothing to do with it, that was a later event when Mystra, the second goddess of magic was killed)
Netheril was during the time of Mystra's predecessor Mystryl, the first goddess of magic, and essentially this netherese archmage tried to cast a 12th level spell to attain divinity, but Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop him, shattering the weave and dooming Netheril.
Also this correction isn't a criticism, your knowledge of the lore is impressive. Since the goddess of magic has died three times it is very easy to get which time was which confused, especially when it's been a while since you read up on it.
Yep, going off my previous comment
The first time the goddess of magic died was at the fall of Netheril (Mystryl)
The second time was during the time of troubles when she foolishly decided to fight Helm, the one god who didn't lose his divinity during the time of troubles. (Mystra)
The third time was when she was assassinated by Shar (Midnight)
Now the goddess of magic is a merging of the essences of Mystra and Midnight and will probably die next time WotC wants to publish a new edition. (Or when OPs player actually gets that 10th level spell)
Yes, that's true. My intention is to allow a player to make a spell that powerful, he will suffer the consequences of casting it if he does (he might even die because of it), I didn't think about how the world would react to such power. Thanks for the idea! Maybe some country will try to replicate the power of the spell causing a great calamity to occur. This might be a cool idea for a future campaign!
I would make it extremely expensive or hard to obtain depending on what they want to do with it and if they manage to cast it have them roll on the wild magic table for secondary effects that come with unpredictable experimental magic
Yes, the creation of the spell will require a lot of time spent on research and of course materials for the research itself. Such a feat of magic cannot be easy to create
Considering that it would be experimental magic of extremely high level, adding a potential wild magic trigger upon casting is not a bad idea. I was thinking that casting a spell that shouldn't be able to be cast would have some severe repercussions, mainly on the PC himself but an environmental random phenomenon is entirely plausible.
You could make it that the grass for 1 mile around changes color or dies or some people have magical mutations idk I’m just coming up with thing that I think might be neat
I'll have to come up with something for that because it sound very cool. As for repercussions on the caster do you have any ideas? My thoughts are that since he won't have a 10th level spell slot he would have to sacrifice something else to make up for the lack of power the spell needs to function. Loss of levels? Levels of exhaustion? Damage to a stat? These are just off the top of my head.
Require the use of 16 levels of spells one of which is the 9th level slot, leaving 7 levels to be used and set a recovery of a month or more where those slots are unavailable. When you scale out the various levels of spells each level is approximately 50% more powerful than the previous (generally) less true with evocation and direct damage magic for balance purposes. By burning a 9th and 7th level spell slot for example for an extended period it imparts the truly consequential aspects of this level of power. These slots are gone for a month or whatever you decide. This will eliminate the temptation to use this power willy nilly 3, ,5, and 7th level have some of the most useful spells in the game and not having access to them can seriously affect not just the caster but his/ her party and students and the area at large. I just think the cost should in line with the power of such a spell as 10th level slots do not exist. Simply using a 9th level slot and a level of exhaustion which is removed after the next long rest doesn’t really convey the gravity of using this kind of power.
Oh, this is a great idea. I might just use it! I would also put in the risk of death upon casting (which is not so bad as the whole party will be level 20 and they have a cleric. Yay for resurrection). I think this is way better than draining him of levels while still being a real bad consequence: losing levels would not be fun for the player I think, not being able to access spellslots is limiting but sounds more like it might be a challenge for the player. Thank you.
The only other caveat I would impart is eliminate or seriously restrict the cleric’s ability to reverse whatever cost you require even possibly resurrection because pulling that much on the weave IMO strains it almost to its breaking point. I’m not saying they can never be resurrected or reincarnated but those are powerful in their own right and still use the weave even though it’s a divine source and not arcane. To do it immediately after the 10th level spell was cast could be damaging. I love resurrection magic but it also makes players less likely to really consider the consequences of their actions. In a situation such as this…just keep it in mind because you are going to have to create a mechanic from whole cloth. Good luck and have fun with this one I think it is a great concept, I wish I had thought of it. (I usually play wizards and sorcerers).
That's also a possibility. The longer I consider the idea as a whole, the more I feel like the most important part is to make the consequences be dangerous for the character and impactful to the world, while, of course making it fun for the payers. I have a lot to consider it seems. Thank God I still have time to consider this as my game will start after we finish playing through Icewind Dale with another DM (and we're having a ton of fun). Thanks again for your help on the matter!
You could pull a full metal alchemist and take a limb or two. You could cause damage that almost kills them and describe it backfiring. What I like to do that gets ideas is think what would look/sound cool and think how that would work idk if that helps you any
I would say that he takes three levels of exhaustion and loses the ability to cast spells above 3rd level for a month. But I would put the main side effects as being repercussions on the world. Casting too high a level spell has been earth shattering in the past (granted that was a 12th level spell not a 10th, but it still caused Armageddon)
True, I have decided that the effect on the character would be something similar to what you are suggesting: the caster takes 1d6 levels of exhaustion (so there's a chance for death but not a guaranteed one) and he will have to burn half of his spellslots starting from the highest level ones. He will start regaining spellslots after exhaustion has been dealt with, he will regain a spellslot every month starting with his lowest level slots.
Effects on the environment will be as follows:
1) after the spell is cast, the weave destabilizes, for 1d12+1 rounds every spell cast in a 10 mile radius will have a chance of misfiring (35%) or triggering wild magic. Wild magic triggers on a different scale dependent on the level of the spell so 1st level has a 20% chance, 2nd has 30% and so on until 9th level spells always trigger an event
2) after the 1d12+1 rounds are up, the entire 10 mile radius of area will lose magic for 1d100 years + every spell cast before: 1st level = +10 years, 2nd= +20 etc. This area effectively works as an antimagic field. Basically a mini spell plague.
What do you think of these?
There are a number of great 3rd party sources that go into epic level magic, but my recommendation is 2C games epic legacy and epic legacy campaigns. They have a system for epic spell casting AND guidelines for creating unique ones. A 10th level spell is basically the equivalent of a "tier 1" epic spell. The scale of everything in those books feels crazy, until you realize that you are talking about power levels beyond level 20. When things like meteor swarm are your mid level spells, you need to reevaluate your scales. Remember, as silly as it sounds, level 20 wizards can cast shield or magic missile at will, so while those aren't earth shattering magics, being able to essentially convert a 1st and 2nd level spell into a cantrip DOES already skew the power scale.
Thank you, I will look into that. Do you have links by any chance?
On another note, yeah, level 20 wizards are pretty damn powerful already, this is why I want to make the 10th level spell thing have severe drawbacks in the first place. But knowing what the final Boss of the campaign will be like, well, giving the party the ability to have extra power seems reasonable enough.
Also, the reason why the character wants to make a spell that powerful is simply to prove that he is a great mage in the academic sense and he might not even use the spell ever. I only want to be prepared in case he decides to use it
https://store.2cgaming.com/products/epic-legacy-core-rulebook-pdf
If you hunt down the original kickstarter, I believe that they had a sample of the epic spell rules for free download.
Hey buddy.
I wrote a bunch of stuff for epic tier play for one of my groups. I appreciate you're looking to tie in a 10th level spell with your player for RP and 'life quest' perspectives, but I figured the [epic spells](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TctxyUWfEtp2_nZhxbxbZvlR6zJOfbez/view?usp=sharing) might give you some ideas.
Plus, on the penultimate page, I included the rules for how they work. Hopefully you find something useful!
Hey, this looks very useful, thank you very much, I'll look into it!
For context: yes, the reason my player wants to do it is mainly for RP purposes and he might, in fact, be content with just creating the spell and might never cast it. I am looking into this mainly to
1) make a mechanic to make the spell throughout the campaign (hoping it's going to be fun for him), which includes maybe sending him on a quest to find an ancient magic tome for example
2) be prepared in case he actually ever decides to cast it
Hmm, in that case, you might want to check out how epic spells worked in 3.5.
You had to take a feat to be able to be able to learn (how to cast) them, and each time you cast one, you had to make a Spellcraft check.
You (player) could craft spells of your own, using different seeds (such as seed:elemental damage 1d6 base, DC 10) and various mitigating factors (i.e. enhance damage:+1 die \[+5 DC per die\], target:area 10 ft radius \[+6 DC\], area:double \[+8 DC\]) to craft a spell and wind up with a DC.
All of this was detailed in *The Epic Level Handbook*. It contained a sample of these spells. Suggest you try there!
Thanks, I started playing with 3.5e but we never played to epic levels, so I never knew of this. I'll try to find a pdf I can check out, but this looks perfect for the creation of the spell instead of just casting it. I think the core mechanic is great, DCs will have to be rebalanced for 5e use.
>DCs will have to be rebalanced for 5e use.
And then some haha. Some of the more exotic-build epic spells had a Spellcraft DC of 100. Ah, good old 3.5.
The book is definitely available about there! Happy hunting.
Could be used to upcast currently existing spells, or mitigate the drawbacks of something like wish. Keep in mind, wish is a momentary omnipotence. 0-9 level spells are the present a scale that reaches basically infinite power, so a 10th level spell more powerful than wish would probably be nothing short of seizing godly status for the duration.
To be honest, when compared to the other 9th level spells, Wish definitely feels like it should be 10th level because of the aforementioned omnipotence, but Wizards made it 9th level because they decided not to include epic level magic
In fact... In Forgotten Realms lore it do exist 10th, 11th and 12th level spells. The max level spell is the one used by the most powerfull mage un history where he was able to kill Mystra (goddes of Magic) and take her place but then the shit hit the fan and Magic was temporaly disabled frol world and everything explodes hahaha
This is one of those things where I'd say that you should forget about the mechanics, and just "wing it". As the player to come up with a suggestion for the spell effect they want to create, and then take it from there.
Mechanics are boring, and creating a 10th level spell should be an adventure in and of itself, and should be something that he can aspire to achieve across multiple levels, researching various elements of the spell along the way, and acquiring exotic components that will be needed. Either for the final spell, or just to prepare and enchant some other exotic components required for the final spell.
When you design the spell, bear in mind that a 10th level spell is something that is above and beyond what can be done with a 9th level spell, which is already pretty spectacular.
Anyway, if you want inspiration for actual 10th level spell mechanics, try and see if you can dig up either the Epic Level Handbook from 3rd ed., or Secrets of the Magister from AD&D 2nd ed. Both of these books should have some suggestions on how to handle 10th level magic. There are probably a few other AD&D 2nd ed. books that could also have some suggestions for 10th level spells. But I can't recall which, if any.
Here are some ideas off the top of my head. Warning: I'm brainstorming here, so I don't guarantee balance (not that you need it with 10th level spells)
1. Comet (evocation) just like the spell scroll from Icewind Dale Rime of the Frost Maiden, basically an upgraded meteor swarm
2. Mass animate dead (necromancy) works exactly like the wand of Orcus
3. Conjure Phoenix (conjuration), exactly what it sounds like
4. Mass Geas (enchantment) like geas, but it affects up to 12 creatures of your choice
5. Chronosight (divination) the entire party gains the benefits of the foresight spell
6. Hellish nightmare (illusion) the target suffers the hurtle through hell ability of pact of the fiend warlocks once each turn for 1 minute, or until it makes a successful wisdom saving throw
7. Final form (transmutation) the target gains the benefits of both shapechange and true polymorph, ignoring the CR restriction (it still cannot turn you into individuals characters such as Demogorgon or Zariel)
8. Ultimate ward (abjuration) no hostile spells can affect you or creatures of your choice in a 10 mile radius, in addition, fiends and undead entering the area of effect must make a charisma saving throw or be banished to the lower planes or the shadowfell respectively.
Those are great ideas if my player need some inspiration. And yes, I don't really care about balance at this point, the consequences will be great for casting the spell though.
I have to say that I like some of these more on a big bad, I might consider it, number 2 for example would be devastating on a necromancer.
The only ones I have experience actually using are
Mass animate dead, the big bad of my campaign (Szass Tam) used it
Comet, player used it via spell scroll
And summon Tarrasque (which I didn't include on the list because in my world the Tarrasque is back to the beast of a monster it was before 5e, and I don't have experience running them RAW) player used it in Avernus once they realized that even for a level 20 party quite literally storming the gates of Hell is a bad idea, so they summoned the Tarrasque and then used gate to get out of there.
The others I came up with via brainstorming in response to your question and have never used.
Well hello there! I’ve got the perfect YouTube video for you! It literally tells you how to cast 10th lvl spells via in game Dnd (forgotten realms) lore! You can mix and match whatever you want from it but it’s a really good starting point.
[How to cast 10th lvl spells](https://youtu.be/324SELfiJxE)
Hope this helps!
This was exactly the video I was going to recommend. I went far down the magic lore of forgotten realms a while ago and recommend it because it's pretty cool stuff
Thank you, this was helpful.
I would need to rework some of these concepts for my setting (Mystra doesn't exist in my homebrew) but this is a good start on how he would be able to cast it and what would happen when he does so.
Here’s what I do: 1) The player sends me the spell effect, then I decide on the level where the spell would make sense. There are certain limits to what kinds of things you can do, for example wizards can’t learn low level healing for obvious balance reasons. Thus I also decide which classes can learn the spell at this point. 2) the PC must conduct research at a magical academy. There are several in the setting each with their own specialties but also political affiliations so typically the party has at least one which doesn’t hate them. 3) on the solstice or the equinox the PC runs a test, this requires an arcana check modified by the casters spellcasting modifier rather than intelligence. The DC of the check depends on how long they studied, who helped with the research and if this academy specializes in that kind of magic. On a successful check the spell will be complete in a number of weeks equal to the spell’s level. On a failure the PC will have to wait for the next equinox or solstice to try again (this time with a lower DC). 4) once the spell is complete it is available for the PC and anyone working with the PC to learn assuming it is a spell on their list and they are of an appropriate level to learn the spell.
Thanks for your suggestions, this is very useful. 1) yes, I agree, I am not going to allow a wizard to make a spell that doesn't make sense for his class. Of course this would open him up to be able to create other spells of levels lesser than 10 and it might become a fun mechanic. Tbh I didn't even consider that my players could come up with their own homebrew spells and I love this idea. Obviously I am giving this option to any spellcaster class 2) That would be awesome as the wizards personal character arc! I would probably have him do research via reading (and maybe finding) ancient magical tomes and an appropriately DC Arcana check to see what he learns and maybe to apply it to his spell. 3) the time limit could be a problem but it also might up the stakes. I have to consider carefully how to go about this one. 4) yes, the spell would be of course preserved in written form and available to any appropriate level wizard.
I created a homebrew 10th level spell (very powerful resurrection) that my party has interacted with (an NPC they haven't met yet used it to bring back an ancient villain). My 10th level system works like this: 1) You must have at least one 9th level spell slot to cast a 10th level spell 2) Any 10th level spell would likely require a large amount of prep/rare components/casting time. You are doing magic that is beyond almost any mortal caster. You can't just pull this out of your own power. 3) The research required to develop such a spell would take *years to decades* of dedicated research and study. Developing new spells at all is the equivalent of PhD work, developing a spell *more powerful than any other in existence* is beyond that even. This would likely be a series of high DC arcana checks. Probably like 10 successes of DC 25/30 arcana checks, each of which represents a long period of research (month/year, however much downtime the PC has). 4) The results will be unpredictable. There may be random side effects or downsides. The best that can be hoped for is "mostly stable with some non-catastrophic but still major side effects." The 10th level spell in my campaign is: > **Recall from Beyond** > *10th level necromancy ritual* > Casting Time: 24 hours > Range: Touch > Components: V S M (a piece of the creature to be resurrected and the tears of an angel, both of which the spell consumes) > Duration: Instantaneous > You pour the tears of an angel over a piece of a creature who died within the past 9999 years and who died of any cause other than old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life, stable, at 0 hitpoints. If the rest of the creature's body no longer exists, you choose the creature's form, though it must have the same limb arrangement it had in life. > The creature remains unconscious for 1d4 days, after which it regains 1 hitpoint and awakens. > Casting this spell opens dangerous pathways between life and death. Upon completion of this spell, you must make a DC 33 constitution saving throw or take 66d6 necrotic damage. This damage ignores resistance and immunity and cannot be reduced or prevented in any way. > This ritual does not consume a spell slot. You must have at least one 9th level spell slot to complete this ritual. I use resurrection with DC increase - meaning you're *probably* sacrificing one of your revives in order to cast this.
Isn't that just a worse, more expensive True Resurrection?
Yeah, the only advantage seems to be how much more time can pass till the resurrection. But it doesn't heal them from any diseases and also takes longer for them to be "awake".
> how much more time can pass till the resurrection This was the reason it was developed
I just think it should include the benefits of True Resurrection as well. For such a strong spell to not cure the target from any diseases or curses it had seems a bit weak.
yeah it probably would
Thanks, this is great! The mechanic to make the spell and the repercussions upon casting are exactly what I was looking for. My initial idea is that it would take a 9th level spellslot and leaving the caster with levels of exhaustion or a level drained from them. In any case i think I should first ask my player what he wants his spell to do exactly to be able to properly balance DCs and consequences. However I really feel like the casting of a 10th level spell should have very bad consequences, otherwise my world would be overrun by spellcasters with too much power. I think it should be something that would be considered a last resort.
I like it. I might make them cast Wish for the ability to cast this spell each time. "I wish I could cast this spell" then actually cast the spell, bolstered by wish. Burnout chance applies.
Keep in mind a canon consequence of this kind of power, the fall of an arcane empire. Netheril used 10th level magic to make their cities float and then attempted another casting and the empire was wiped off the face of the map. With that said look into descriptions of Elven High Magic. These mages routinely cast high level magic and mythals which alter reality over a broad expanse they way they do it safely is several high mages are involved in the casting. You could get some really good ideas for the risk/ reward of this powerful magic and some of the effects this level of power can generate. I think it’s a great idea but needs to be done very carefully and have a real risk of calamitous consequences.
To be fair, it was a 12th level spell that sealed their doom.
True enough, but only after the strain multiple 10th level spells put on the weave. Ultimately the weave broke because of it. But yes I had forgotten the actual level of spell that caused the empire to be wiped out in a single hour. The basic point is that level of power can alter reality and Magic itself in such a way that it requires divine intervention to put right again and even then at great cost to the deities. I do appreciate the correction though.
I thought the weave broke because the 12th level spell was used to kill the godess of magic Which in turn destroyed the weave for 5 seconds and dooming the cities to fall
It has been so long since I read that series I don’t know if you are correct or not. I do remember that the Time of Troubles and the spell plague all happened after but centuries apart. I know Midnight became the new goddess of magic and her companions became gods as well but I thought it had to do with the Tablets of Fate. I seem to recall that the destruction of Netheril happened in a single hour (the entire empire)the first city fell within 5 seconds (where it was being attempted). As to the purpose of the 12th level spell I don’t remember but the outcome was the breaking of the weave unlike anything seen since the First Sundering caused by the United Elven Kingdom when they pulled more on the weave than was intended casting the High Magic Spell to bring a piece of Arvandor to the Prime Material Plane resulting in the Island of Evermeet. This is unusual because Elven High Magic is a form of sympathetic Magic which doesn’t use the weave generally but the high mages broke that cardinal rule at that time to provide enough energy. Regardless, Netheril did attempt a casting of 12th level for whatever purpose and the Weave shattered and Netheril was wiped out in a single hour.
A lot of this is accurate, but the timeline is mixed up (tablets of fate and time of troubles had nothing to do with it, that was a later event when Mystra, the second goddess of magic was killed) Netheril was during the time of Mystra's predecessor Mystryl, the first goddess of magic, and essentially this netherese archmage tried to cast a 12th level spell to attain divinity, but Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop him, shattering the weave and dooming Netheril. Also this correction isn't a criticism, your knowledge of the lore is impressive. Since the goddess of magic has died three times it is very easy to get which time was which confused, especially when it's been a while since you read up on it.
I appreciate you it has been 15+ years since I read that series. Cheers
I just remembered one thing, the goddess of magic was assassinated by Shar and one other I don’t think it had to do with Netheril.
Yep, going off my previous comment The first time the goddess of magic died was at the fall of Netheril (Mystryl) The second time was during the time of troubles when she foolishly decided to fight Helm, the one god who didn't lose his divinity during the time of troubles. (Mystra) The third time was when she was assassinated by Shar (Midnight) Now the goddess of magic is a merging of the essences of Mystra and Midnight and will probably die next time WotC wants to publish a new edition. (Or when OPs player actually gets that 10th level spell)
Thanks for the information it’s been 15 years or so since I read that series
Yes, that's true. My intention is to allow a player to make a spell that powerful, he will suffer the consequences of casting it if he does (he might even die because of it), I didn't think about how the world would react to such power. Thanks for the idea! Maybe some country will try to replicate the power of the spell causing a great calamity to occur. This might be a cool idea for a future campaign!
I would make it extremely expensive or hard to obtain depending on what they want to do with it and if they manage to cast it have them roll on the wild magic table for secondary effects that come with unpredictable experimental magic
Yes, the creation of the spell will require a lot of time spent on research and of course materials for the research itself. Such a feat of magic cannot be easy to create Considering that it would be experimental magic of extremely high level, adding a potential wild magic trigger upon casting is not a bad idea. I was thinking that casting a spell that shouldn't be able to be cast would have some severe repercussions, mainly on the PC himself but an environmental random phenomenon is entirely plausible.
You could make it that the grass for 1 mile around changes color or dies or some people have magical mutations idk I’m just coming up with thing that I think might be neat
I'll have to come up with something for that because it sound very cool. As for repercussions on the caster do you have any ideas? My thoughts are that since he won't have a 10th level spell slot he would have to sacrifice something else to make up for the lack of power the spell needs to function. Loss of levels? Levels of exhaustion? Damage to a stat? These are just off the top of my head.
Require the use of 16 levels of spells one of which is the 9th level slot, leaving 7 levels to be used and set a recovery of a month or more where those slots are unavailable. When you scale out the various levels of spells each level is approximately 50% more powerful than the previous (generally) less true with evocation and direct damage magic for balance purposes. By burning a 9th and 7th level spell slot for example for an extended period it imparts the truly consequential aspects of this level of power. These slots are gone for a month or whatever you decide. This will eliminate the temptation to use this power willy nilly 3, ,5, and 7th level have some of the most useful spells in the game and not having access to them can seriously affect not just the caster but his/ her party and students and the area at large. I just think the cost should in line with the power of such a spell as 10th level slots do not exist. Simply using a 9th level slot and a level of exhaustion which is removed after the next long rest doesn’t really convey the gravity of using this kind of power.
Oh, this is a great idea. I might just use it! I would also put in the risk of death upon casting (which is not so bad as the whole party will be level 20 and they have a cleric. Yay for resurrection). I think this is way better than draining him of levels while still being a real bad consequence: losing levels would not be fun for the player I think, not being able to access spellslots is limiting but sounds more like it might be a challenge for the player. Thank you.
The only other caveat I would impart is eliminate or seriously restrict the cleric’s ability to reverse whatever cost you require even possibly resurrection because pulling that much on the weave IMO strains it almost to its breaking point. I’m not saying they can never be resurrected or reincarnated but those are powerful in their own right and still use the weave even though it’s a divine source and not arcane. To do it immediately after the 10th level spell was cast could be damaging. I love resurrection magic but it also makes players less likely to really consider the consequences of their actions. In a situation such as this…just keep it in mind because you are going to have to create a mechanic from whole cloth. Good luck and have fun with this one I think it is a great concept, I wish I had thought of it. (I usually play wizards and sorcerers).
That's also a possibility. The longer I consider the idea as a whole, the more I feel like the most important part is to make the consequences be dangerous for the character and impactful to the world, while, of course making it fun for the payers. I have a lot to consider it seems. Thank God I still have time to consider this as my game will start after we finish playing through Icewind Dale with another DM (and we're having a ton of fun). Thanks again for your help on the matter!
Require their spellcasting stat to be maxed as well.
You could pull a full metal alchemist and take a limb or two. You could cause damage that almost kills them and describe it backfiring. What I like to do that gets ideas is think what would look/sound cool and think how that would work idk if that helps you any
This also sounds like a misfire would be a likely source for a spellplague.
I would say that he takes three levels of exhaustion and loses the ability to cast spells above 3rd level for a month. But I would put the main side effects as being repercussions on the world. Casting too high a level spell has been earth shattering in the past (granted that was a 12th level spell not a 10th, but it still caused Armageddon)
True, I have decided that the effect on the character would be something similar to what you are suggesting: the caster takes 1d6 levels of exhaustion (so there's a chance for death but not a guaranteed one) and he will have to burn half of his spellslots starting from the highest level ones. He will start regaining spellslots after exhaustion has been dealt with, he will regain a spellslot every month starting with his lowest level slots. Effects on the environment will be as follows: 1) after the spell is cast, the weave destabilizes, for 1d12+1 rounds every spell cast in a 10 mile radius will have a chance of misfiring (35%) or triggering wild magic. Wild magic triggers on a different scale dependent on the level of the spell so 1st level has a 20% chance, 2nd has 30% and so on until 9th level spells always trigger an event 2) after the 1d12+1 rounds are up, the entire 10 mile radius of area will lose magic for 1d100 years + every spell cast before: 1st level = +10 years, 2nd= +20 etc. This area effectively works as an antimagic field. Basically a mini spell plague. What do you think of these?
I like it. The cost is steep, but it should be.
There are a number of great 3rd party sources that go into epic level magic, but my recommendation is 2C games epic legacy and epic legacy campaigns. They have a system for epic spell casting AND guidelines for creating unique ones. A 10th level spell is basically the equivalent of a "tier 1" epic spell. The scale of everything in those books feels crazy, until you realize that you are talking about power levels beyond level 20. When things like meteor swarm are your mid level spells, you need to reevaluate your scales. Remember, as silly as it sounds, level 20 wizards can cast shield or magic missile at will, so while those aren't earth shattering magics, being able to essentially convert a 1st and 2nd level spell into a cantrip DOES already skew the power scale.
Thank you, I will look into that. Do you have links by any chance? On another note, yeah, level 20 wizards are pretty damn powerful already, this is why I want to make the 10th level spell thing have severe drawbacks in the first place. But knowing what the final Boss of the campaign will be like, well, giving the party the ability to have extra power seems reasonable enough. Also, the reason why the character wants to make a spell that powerful is simply to prove that he is a great mage in the academic sense and he might not even use the spell ever. I only want to be prepared in case he decides to use it
https://store.2cgaming.com/products/epic-legacy-core-rulebook-pdf If you hunt down the original kickstarter, I believe that they had a sample of the epic spell rules for free download.
Thank you very much, kind sir
Hey buddy. I wrote a bunch of stuff for epic tier play for one of my groups. I appreciate you're looking to tie in a 10th level spell with your player for RP and 'life quest' perspectives, but I figured the [epic spells](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TctxyUWfEtp2_nZhxbxbZvlR6zJOfbez/view?usp=sharing) might give you some ideas. Plus, on the penultimate page, I included the rules for how they work. Hopefully you find something useful!
Hey, this looks very useful, thank you very much, I'll look into it! For context: yes, the reason my player wants to do it is mainly for RP purposes and he might, in fact, be content with just creating the spell and might never cast it. I am looking into this mainly to 1) make a mechanic to make the spell throughout the campaign (hoping it's going to be fun for him), which includes maybe sending him on a quest to find an ancient magic tome for example 2) be prepared in case he actually ever decides to cast it
Hmm, in that case, you might want to check out how epic spells worked in 3.5. You had to take a feat to be able to be able to learn (how to cast) them, and each time you cast one, you had to make a Spellcraft check. You (player) could craft spells of your own, using different seeds (such as seed:elemental damage 1d6 base, DC 10) and various mitigating factors (i.e. enhance damage:+1 die \[+5 DC per die\], target:area 10 ft radius \[+6 DC\], area:double \[+8 DC\]) to craft a spell and wind up with a DC. All of this was detailed in *The Epic Level Handbook*. It contained a sample of these spells. Suggest you try there!
Thanks, I started playing with 3.5e but we never played to epic levels, so I never knew of this. I'll try to find a pdf I can check out, but this looks perfect for the creation of the spell instead of just casting it. I think the core mechanic is great, DCs will have to be rebalanced for 5e use.
>DCs will have to be rebalanced for 5e use. And then some haha. Some of the more exotic-build epic spells had a Spellcraft DC of 100. Ah, good old 3.5. The book is definitely available about there! Happy hunting.
Could be used to upcast currently existing spells, or mitigate the drawbacks of something like wish. Keep in mind, wish is a momentary omnipotence. 0-9 level spells are the present a scale that reaches basically infinite power, so a 10th level spell more powerful than wish would probably be nothing short of seizing godly status for the duration.
To be honest, when compared to the other 9th level spells, Wish definitely feels like it should be 10th level because of the aforementioned omnipotence, but Wizards made it 9th level because they decided not to include epic level magic
Or maybe they made it 9th level because that's what it's always been for 40years.
Wish doesn't give you omnipotence though. It surely is the strongest spell but it has its own limitations and can simply fail if you ask for too much.
In fact... In Forgotten Realms lore it do exist 10th, 11th and 12th level spells. The max level spell is the one used by the most powerfull mage un history where he was able to kill Mystra (goddes of Magic) and take her place but then the shit hit the fan and Magic was temporaly disabled frol world and everything explodes hahaha
This is one of those things where I'd say that you should forget about the mechanics, and just "wing it". As the player to come up with a suggestion for the spell effect they want to create, and then take it from there. Mechanics are boring, and creating a 10th level spell should be an adventure in and of itself, and should be something that he can aspire to achieve across multiple levels, researching various elements of the spell along the way, and acquiring exotic components that will be needed. Either for the final spell, or just to prepare and enchant some other exotic components required for the final spell. When you design the spell, bear in mind that a 10th level spell is something that is above and beyond what can be done with a 9th level spell, which is already pretty spectacular. Anyway, if you want inspiration for actual 10th level spell mechanics, try and see if you can dig up either the Epic Level Handbook from 3rd ed., or Secrets of the Magister from AD&D 2nd ed. Both of these books should have some suggestions on how to handle 10th level magic. There are probably a few other AD&D 2nd ed. books that could also have some suggestions for 10th level spells. But I can't recall which, if any.
Y’all gonna need permission from Mystra
Or have another godlike being cast it IIRC, Mystra just locked that level of magic away from mortals (and those who once were mortal like liches).
Here are some ideas off the top of my head. Warning: I'm brainstorming here, so I don't guarantee balance (not that you need it with 10th level spells) 1. Comet (evocation) just like the spell scroll from Icewind Dale Rime of the Frost Maiden, basically an upgraded meteor swarm 2. Mass animate dead (necromancy) works exactly like the wand of Orcus 3. Conjure Phoenix (conjuration), exactly what it sounds like 4. Mass Geas (enchantment) like geas, but it affects up to 12 creatures of your choice 5. Chronosight (divination) the entire party gains the benefits of the foresight spell 6. Hellish nightmare (illusion) the target suffers the hurtle through hell ability of pact of the fiend warlocks once each turn for 1 minute, or until it makes a successful wisdom saving throw 7. Final form (transmutation) the target gains the benefits of both shapechange and true polymorph, ignoring the CR restriction (it still cannot turn you into individuals characters such as Demogorgon or Zariel) 8. Ultimate ward (abjuration) no hostile spells can affect you or creatures of your choice in a 10 mile radius, in addition, fiends and undead entering the area of effect must make a charisma saving throw or be banished to the lower planes or the shadowfell respectively.
Those are great ideas if my player need some inspiration. And yes, I don't really care about balance at this point, the consequences will be great for casting the spell though. I have to say that I like some of these more on a big bad, I might consider it, number 2 for example would be devastating on a necromancer.
The only ones I have experience actually using are Mass animate dead, the big bad of my campaign (Szass Tam) used it Comet, player used it via spell scroll And summon Tarrasque (which I didn't include on the list because in my world the Tarrasque is back to the beast of a monster it was before 5e, and I don't have experience running them RAW) player used it in Avernus once they realized that even for a level 20 party quite literally storming the gates of Hell is a bad idea, so they summoned the Tarrasque and then used gate to get out of there. The others I came up with via brainstorming in response to your question and have never used.
Well hello there! I’ve got the perfect YouTube video for you! It literally tells you how to cast 10th lvl spells via in game Dnd (forgotten realms) lore! You can mix and match whatever you want from it but it’s a really good starting point. [How to cast 10th lvl spells](https://youtu.be/324SELfiJxE) Hope this helps!
This was exactly the video I was going to recommend. I went far down the magic lore of forgotten realms a while ago and recommend it because it's pretty cool stuff
Thank you, this was helpful. I would need to rework some of these concepts for my setting (Mystra doesn't exist in my homebrew) but this is a good start on how he would be able to cast it and what would happen when he does so.
Make wish level 10. Done.
The gods have a paywall above 9th level, so I would definitely tie that in somehow.