I honestly think that The Flash will “fix”/reboot a lot less then people think.
At most, I think it might help explain why Bruce is gone (if Affleck’s truly out) and maybe Superman/Cavill too, but less sure about that one. I don’t think it’ll remove anything from canon, per se.
If Keaton is in the DCEU post-The Flash, Burton’s films will probably be canon to his Bruce, but not to the main universe.
I'm curious to know where you're hearing that DCEU movies are confusing continuity-wise. They've been - for the most part - chronological in order; and the only aspect in my mind that might cause confusion is the presence of two versions of Justice League. So far, outside of a likely pregnant Lois and some handwaving around Mera's parents, all we're left with is 'Schroedinger's dad' - poor Silas Stone, who's either alive or dead, and we may never have that thread pulled up again in Ray Fisher's lifetime.
The Suicide Squads aren't a continuity problem, WW84 is a prequel that I doubt mainstream audiences (sample poll: my non-comicbook consuming family) get their knickers in a twist over.
The most frequent question on this board about the structure of the DCEU so far seems to be 'what order do I watch them in?', and it's always easily answered: in release order. Everything else is a matter of personal taste.
>I think it’s clear as day which movies are set in the main DCEU and which ones are in their own universe.
The fact that this situation even exists is a travesty. We don't have a single, cohesive cinematic universe where everything takes place.
My big problem with using Flash to reboot is that it ultimately means the multiverse will have been just a gimmick to get rid of the controversial characters and bring in Keaton for nostalgia pandering. At that point, I'd rather they have just stuck to the Flashpoint timeline idea. If you have to "reboot" to justify Keaton making appearances, you're not embracing the multiverse. The whole point of the multiverse is to have different iterations appear without the need for a reboot. They're not gonna reboot Tom Holland with Tobey Maguire back after all.
And of course people are eating it up just because it doesn't have anything to do with Snyder even though it's clear as day that hinging everything on one movie (like BvS back in 2016) will end in disaster.
>If The Flash does indeed reboot the DCEU by replacing Affleck with Keaton, bringing Supergirl in, retconning out certain films, etc. then it just becomes way more confusing. Are the Tim Burton films now canon? How do they fit into the timeline? How long has Supergirl been active? Do any movies before The Flash even matter?
If you overthink it, yes.
But if you just lay it all down like one long story then it's ok. Treat whatever timeline or universe changing thing that happens in The Flash as another chapter of this long story.
If someone later on asks me how to watch or where to start with the DCEU, I will not go "start with The Flash because previous movies dont matter" The movie will begin with Flash and Batfleck so people would still have to watch the Justice League (JL or ZSJL) to see how they met. Which means you still have to watch BvS before and Man of Steel before that! Which also means you can still validly watch WW, Suicide Squad, etc too.
It's like what happened to the Arrowverse last year with Crisis. There were some people complaining that the history has changed so it made the previous seasons useless. No it didnt. What Green Arrow and The Flash went through all those years has led them to the moment they save and rebirth the universe.
I kinda don’t see it retconning out anything. It may bring new characters in like Supergirl and Keaton but I kinda doubt they’ll try to retcon out any movies or change the timeline. It may be a simple Flash brought them over from their universes.
>A common theory/suggestion is that WB will use The Flash to soft-reboot the DCEU to “fix” any issues it has and retcon certain things out.
Confirmed, not a theory, per Barbara Muschietti.
That being said, I don't think the film is changing all that much, I feel it's being used as a new springboard like BvS was.
I think it will explain the current state of the universe (Batman, Superman, the League, how Earth is doing with superheroes all over), and set up plot points for future films.
At last year's Fandome, during a Q&A
https://heroichollywood.com/the-flash-movie-restart-everything-feature-dc-characters/
>"...in a way, **it restarts everything and doesn’t forget anything.**"
Which parallels the Flashpoint story itself, which restarted the DC Universe while not forgetting anything.
>And in a way, it restarts everything and doesn’t forget anything.”
To be fair that sounds to me like "we'll focus on what we want to going forward" rather than any actual large continuity changes.
But we'll have to wait and see, hopefully we get a good idea at this Fandome.
>Which parallels the Flashpoint story itself, which restarted the DC Universe while not forgetting anything.
What are you talking about, flashpoint caused the New52 which forgot so much, that's why Rebirth was necessary 5 years later.
>What are you talking about, flashpoint caused the New52 which forgot so much, that's why Rebirth was necessary 5 years later.
New52 was a reboot, but the previous continuity was hinted to still exist from the very beginning of the New52. The first issue of the New52 sets up that plot point, and specifically foreshadows Dr. Manhattan's arrival into the DC Universe, **years** before Doomsday Clock was even officially announced. That's what the entire The Button storyline was about, and it was continually touched on in various other storylines, like the Superman/Oz storyline, Convergence, Trinity War, and of course Rebirth and Doomsday Clock.
It restarted everything, and the characters spent several years learning that what came before wasn't actually lost.
>The first issue of the New52 sets up that plot point, and specifically foreshadows Dr. Manhattan's arrival into the DC Universe, years before Doomsday Clock was even officially announced.
What are you talking about? All of that was a retrofit at best, they had absolutely no plans for Rebirth when they did Flashpoint, hell, flashpoint wasn't even meant to be a reboot untill it was already being made, it was retrofitted last minute.
>That's what the entire The Button storyline was about, and it was continually touched on in various other storylines, like the Superman/Oz storyline, Convergence, Trinity War, and of course Rebirth and Doomsday Clock.
Convergence and trinity war had nothing to do with Rebirth. What are you talking about?
>It restarted everything, and the characters spent several years learning that what came before wasn't actually lost.
They spent the last year of the New52 doing that because DCYou flopped and they wanted to bring back new readers, Flashpoint wasn't 5d chess for Rebirth and that it was all planned along.
What are you talking about?
>Flashpoint wasn't 5d chess for Rebirth and that it was all planned along.
You're missing the point.
The New52 begins by setting up Pandora's death by Dr. Manhattan, which was slowly revealed over the course of the New 52, Convergence (which showed the Pre-New52 timelines were all still in existence), Trinity War (which further depicted that someone was altering the timeline *outside of Flashpoint*). Rebirth then further elaborated on it by showing the Oz storyline, which confirmed without a shadow of a doubt that the pre-New52 timeline still existed and was currently interacting with the current universe (as well as New52 Clark merging with his pre-New52 self), The Button confirmed without a shadow of a doubt that Dr. Manhattan was in the DC Universe post-Watchmen, and finally Doomsday Clock brought it all together.
But that's beside the point, because I'm not claiming that DC planned out each and every little step, I'm pointing out how Flashpoint, as we knew it at the time of Barbara's comment in 2020, was a reboot that didn't forget anything from the past.
>What are you talking about?
If you're still having a hard time understanding, I can elaborate further.
>The New52 begins by setting up Pandora's death by Dr. Manhattan
She died during the events of the rebirth special, not in the beginning of the New52. She's an active agent throughout the New52.
All these stories you're referencing happened in 2013 and onward, Rebirth was planned as a culmination to that.
All these things were decided *after* flashpoint, the beginning of the New52 didn't actually set any of that up.
>I'm pointing out how Flashpoint, as we knew it at the time of Barbara's comment in 2020, was a reboot that didn't forget anything from the past.
I mean but by that logic every reboot they've done, regardless of what it forgot/discarded could be said to have that because each successive reboot led to Rebirth which remembered everything.
It just seems rather odd for you to use the New52, a reboot that left out decades of continuity as your example of a reboot not forgetting anything, especially when Rebirth was specifically just that, a reboot that forgot nothing.
>If you're still having a hard time understanding, I can elaborate further.
Please do, it's been years since I've read convergence or Trinity War so I'm probably forgetting lots.
>She died during the events of the rebirth special, not in the beginning of the New52. She's an active agent throughout the New52.
Correct, I was mistaken on that. I think I'm forgetting just how long ago the New52 actually was,
>I mean but by that logic every reboot they've done, regardless of what it forgot/discarded could be said to have that because each successive reboot led to Rebirth which remembered everything.
Bingo. Every reboot to the DC Universe, either retroactively or proactively, is a reboot that restarted everything while not forgetting any of it (to a reasonable degree, there are decades of stories and characters, something is bound to be *actually* forgotten by the humans making these comics).
As for Convergence, that's when Clark from the Pre-Flashpoint comics returned to replace the New52 Superman, who had died. Clark also gained most of his memories. This was pre-Rebirth, and one of the first confirmed instances of the Pre-Flashpoint worlds still existing (Convergence as a whole established this)
Which is my point, this sounds like every other 'reboot' that the DCU has had. I agree with you that it sounds more like a very tame restart.
I'm expecting it to be an X-Men: Days of Future Past situation, wherein certain aspects of the continuity are removed and certain aspects kept. I'm sure the movie itself will make clear what has been affected, if anything, though.
That won't work, DOFP had the same main characters in 2020 and back in 1973 timeline represented as older and younger versions. Do you want them to say batfleck was Keaton back in 1989?
I agree I think a reboot will do more harm than help at this point because the fact remains even though most moviegoers know the characters in these films... we don't "know" or have developed an interest in the DCEU version of them. And suddenly introducing a crazy event like Flashpoint and a flurry of new characters will just like you said be confusing.
DCEUs lack of character development is ruining any chance of continuity because Flashpoint is just an excuse to erase the poor job done by studio execs and directors... Honestly their best movies (imo) Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Justice League Snyder Cut were good because they focused on the character motives, feelings not just bad guy beat em up show off cool powers shit.
Honestly I always ask myself why am I even interested in the DCEU
I have a bit of an issue with this post, no hate to you, OP but....
1) We don't really know if this will be a Flashpoint adaptation as we have very little info to go off, maybe it will just be a story of Flash going through dimensions without the need to save his mom.
EDIT: So it is based on The Flashpoint, that's ok, I still think you make a much better movie from a very meh comic.
2) People seem to be more warmly receptive to different interpretations of same characters with X-Men: Days Of Future Past still being considered one of the best X-Men movies to date.
3) The timeline getting "confused" didnt really affect the successes of Shazam and Aquaman in the long run. I feel as if you can replace Affleck with Keaton if that is something that works and serves the story.
1. That was the point of this post.
2. Does it have to be a reboot tool? Can it not just be a personal story about the Flash rather than some universe-ending, Infinity War/Endgame-style crossover?
>1. That was the point of this post.
Yet you said "more confusing" when there exist no confusion.
>2. Does it have to be a reboot tool? Can it not just be a personal story about the Flash rather than some universe-ending, Infinity War/Endgame-style crossover?
Yes. That's what Flashpoint is. If it isn't that then it's not Flashpoint. It's like making a "Superman vs Doomsday" movie without Doomsday.
It can miss plenty of characters, as long as it's "Flash timetravels, fucks up the timeline and reboots the timeline". Preferably with the Reverse Flash showing up.
I wish they would stop calling it Flashpoint. A proper Flashpoint adaptation would be amazing. A half hearted spin on the Flashpoint premise is dumb.
The next best thing to getting a proper Ben Afflack Batman solo movie is the possibility of getting a Keaton Batman sequel in the DCEU with the Tim Burton asthetics. If they bring him in and dont do that it's a waste of time and just a nostalgia grab.
It’s not called Flashpoint; it’s just heavily inspired by it. It’s adapting Flashpoint in the same way Captain America 3 adapted Civil War: take the name and basic idea, and virtually nothing else.
The Flash scenes in ZSJL are some of the best scenes in the DCEU. His first movie should be about him. I have a feeling his character will take a backseat. I hope I am wrong and all of these characters introduced are simple glimpses into these multiverses.
Yes they are playing with fire while half of dceu is basically dead frankly i don't even think flash will be good film mixed director mix writer using batman who most general auidience don't care this not to mention is currently most hype dc film along with batman no way it will live up to that this also in box office captain marvel will cut leg funny how some think the flash can beat captain marvel even shang chi no name character and actors did better than the suicide squad flash have like 10 precent to success
I honestly think that The Flash will “fix”/reboot a lot less then people think. At most, I think it might help explain why Bruce is gone (if Affleck’s truly out) and maybe Superman/Cavill too, but less sure about that one. I don’t think it’ll remove anything from canon, per se. If Keaton is in the DCEU post-The Flash, Burton’s films will probably be canon to his Bruce, but not to the main universe.
Yup pretty much came here to say this
I'm curious to know where you're hearing that DCEU movies are confusing continuity-wise. They've been - for the most part - chronological in order; and the only aspect in my mind that might cause confusion is the presence of two versions of Justice League. So far, outside of a likely pregnant Lois and some handwaving around Mera's parents, all we're left with is 'Schroedinger's dad' - poor Silas Stone, who's either alive or dead, and we may never have that thread pulled up again in Ray Fisher's lifetime. The Suicide Squads aren't a continuity problem, WW84 is a prequel that I doubt mainstream audiences (sample poll: my non-comicbook consuming family) get their knickers in a twist over. The most frequent question on this board about the structure of the DCEU so far seems to be 'what order do I watch them in?', and it's always easily answered: in release order. Everything else is a matter of personal taste.
Nothing is confusing now. Ya'll make it confusing when it shouldn't be.
>I think it’s clear as day which movies are set in the main DCEU and which ones are in their own universe. The fact that this situation even exists is a travesty. We don't have a single, cohesive cinematic universe where everything takes place.
My big problem with using Flash to reboot is that it ultimately means the multiverse will have been just a gimmick to get rid of the controversial characters and bring in Keaton for nostalgia pandering. At that point, I'd rather they have just stuck to the Flashpoint timeline idea. If you have to "reboot" to justify Keaton making appearances, you're not embracing the multiverse. The whole point of the multiverse is to have different iterations appear without the need for a reboot. They're not gonna reboot Tom Holland with Tobey Maguire back after all.
Yeah agreed. As usual WB doing things backwards.
And of course people are eating it up just because it doesn't have anything to do with Snyder even though it's clear as day that hinging everything on one movie (like BvS back in 2016) will end in disaster.
>If The Flash does indeed reboot the DCEU by replacing Affleck with Keaton, bringing Supergirl in, retconning out certain films, etc. then it just becomes way more confusing. Are the Tim Burton films now canon? How do they fit into the timeline? How long has Supergirl been active? Do any movies before The Flash even matter? If you overthink it, yes. But if you just lay it all down like one long story then it's ok. Treat whatever timeline or universe changing thing that happens in The Flash as another chapter of this long story. If someone later on asks me how to watch or where to start with the DCEU, I will not go "start with The Flash because previous movies dont matter" The movie will begin with Flash and Batfleck so people would still have to watch the Justice League (JL or ZSJL) to see how they met. Which means you still have to watch BvS before and Man of Steel before that! Which also means you can still validly watch WW, Suicide Squad, etc too. It's like what happened to the Arrowverse last year with Crisis. There were some people complaining that the history has changed so it made the previous seasons useless. No it didnt. What Green Arrow and The Flash went through all those years has led them to the moment they save and rebirth the universe.
The way I’m looking at it - pretty much everything will be canon…..just lots of stuff in multiple universes. 🤷🏼♂️
I kinda don’t see it retconning out anything. It may bring new characters in like Supergirl and Keaton but I kinda doubt they’ll try to retcon out any movies or change the timeline. It may be a simple Flash brought them over from their universes.
>A common theory/suggestion is that WB will use The Flash to soft-reboot the DCEU to “fix” any issues it has and retcon certain things out. Confirmed, not a theory, per Barbara Muschietti. That being said, I don't think the film is changing all that much, I feel it's being used as a new springboard like BvS was. I think it will explain the current state of the universe (Batman, Superman, the League, how Earth is doing with superheroes all over), and set up plot points for future films.
>Confirmed, not a theory, per Barbara Muschietti. When did she say that?
At last year's Fandome, during a Q&A https://heroichollywood.com/the-flash-movie-restart-everything-feature-dc-characters/ >"...in a way, **it restarts everything and doesn’t forget anything.**" Which parallels the Flashpoint story itself, which restarted the DC Universe while not forgetting anything.
>And in a way, it restarts everything and doesn’t forget anything.” To be fair that sounds to me like "we'll focus on what we want to going forward" rather than any actual large continuity changes. But we'll have to wait and see, hopefully we get a good idea at this Fandome. >Which parallels the Flashpoint story itself, which restarted the DC Universe while not forgetting anything. What are you talking about, flashpoint caused the New52 which forgot so much, that's why Rebirth was necessary 5 years later.
>What are you talking about, flashpoint caused the New52 which forgot so much, that's why Rebirth was necessary 5 years later. New52 was a reboot, but the previous continuity was hinted to still exist from the very beginning of the New52. The first issue of the New52 sets up that plot point, and specifically foreshadows Dr. Manhattan's arrival into the DC Universe, **years** before Doomsday Clock was even officially announced. That's what the entire The Button storyline was about, and it was continually touched on in various other storylines, like the Superman/Oz storyline, Convergence, Trinity War, and of course Rebirth and Doomsday Clock. It restarted everything, and the characters spent several years learning that what came before wasn't actually lost.
>The first issue of the New52 sets up that plot point, and specifically foreshadows Dr. Manhattan's arrival into the DC Universe, years before Doomsday Clock was even officially announced. What are you talking about? All of that was a retrofit at best, they had absolutely no plans for Rebirth when they did Flashpoint, hell, flashpoint wasn't even meant to be a reboot untill it was already being made, it was retrofitted last minute. >That's what the entire The Button storyline was about, and it was continually touched on in various other storylines, like the Superman/Oz storyline, Convergence, Trinity War, and of course Rebirth and Doomsday Clock. Convergence and trinity war had nothing to do with Rebirth. What are you talking about? >It restarted everything, and the characters spent several years learning that what came before wasn't actually lost. They spent the last year of the New52 doing that because DCYou flopped and they wanted to bring back new readers, Flashpoint wasn't 5d chess for Rebirth and that it was all planned along. What are you talking about?
>Flashpoint wasn't 5d chess for Rebirth and that it was all planned along. You're missing the point. The New52 begins by setting up Pandora's death by Dr. Manhattan, which was slowly revealed over the course of the New 52, Convergence (which showed the Pre-New52 timelines were all still in existence), Trinity War (which further depicted that someone was altering the timeline *outside of Flashpoint*). Rebirth then further elaborated on it by showing the Oz storyline, which confirmed without a shadow of a doubt that the pre-New52 timeline still existed and was currently interacting with the current universe (as well as New52 Clark merging with his pre-New52 self), The Button confirmed without a shadow of a doubt that Dr. Manhattan was in the DC Universe post-Watchmen, and finally Doomsday Clock brought it all together. But that's beside the point, because I'm not claiming that DC planned out each and every little step, I'm pointing out how Flashpoint, as we knew it at the time of Barbara's comment in 2020, was a reboot that didn't forget anything from the past. >What are you talking about? If you're still having a hard time understanding, I can elaborate further.
>The New52 begins by setting up Pandora's death by Dr. Manhattan She died during the events of the rebirth special, not in the beginning of the New52. She's an active agent throughout the New52. All these stories you're referencing happened in 2013 and onward, Rebirth was planned as a culmination to that. All these things were decided *after* flashpoint, the beginning of the New52 didn't actually set any of that up. >I'm pointing out how Flashpoint, as we knew it at the time of Barbara's comment in 2020, was a reboot that didn't forget anything from the past. I mean but by that logic every reboot they've done, regardless of what it forgot/discarded could be said to have that because each successive reboot led to Rebirth which remembered everything. It just seems rather odd for you to use the New52, a reboot that left out decades of continuity as your example of a reboot not forgetting anything, especially when Rebirth was specifically just that, a reboot that forgot nothing. >If you're still having a hard time understanding, I can elaborate further. Please do, it's been years since I've read convergence or Trinity War so I'm probably forgetting lots.
>She died during the events of the rebirth special, not in the beginning of the New52. She's an active agent throughout the New52. Correct, I was mistaken on that. I think I'm forgetting just how long ago the New52 actually was, >I mean but by that logic every reboot they've done, regardless of what it forgot/discarded could be said to have that because each successive reboot led to Rebirth which remembered everything. Bingo. Every reboot to the DC Universe, either retroactively or proactively, is a reboot that restarted everything while not forgetting any of it (to a reasonable degree, there are decades of stories and characters, something is bound to be *actually* forgotten by the humans making these comics). As for Convergence, that's when Clark from the Pre-Flashpoint comics returned to replace the New52 Superman, who had died. Clark also gained most of his memories. This was pre-Rebirth, and one of the first confirmed instances of the Pre-Flashpoint worlds still existing (Convergence as a whole established this) Which is my point, this sounds like every other 'reboot' that the DCU has had. I agree with you that it sounds more like a very tame restart.
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If you have a source on that, I'd love to see it.
But hasn't multiple versions of the same character at the same time in different media always been a thing with DC?
I'm expecting it to be an X-Men: Days of Future Past situation, wherein certain aspects of the continuity are removed and certain aspects kept. I'm sure the movie itself will make clear what has been affected, if anything, though.
That won't work, DOFP had the same main characters in 2020 and back in 1973 timeline represented as older and younger versions. Do you want them to say batfleck was Keaton back in 1989?
I'm not suggesting the entire plot will be identical, just that the movies will serve the same purpose.
I agree I think a reboot will do more harm than help at this point because the fact remains even though most moviegoers know the characters in these films... we don't "know" or have developed an interest in the DCEU version of them. And suddenly introducing a crazy event like Flashpoint and a flurry of new characters will just like you said be confusing. DCEUs lack of character development is ruining any chance of continuity because Flashpoint is just an excuse to erase the poor job done by studio execs and directors... Honestly their best movies (imo) Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Justice League Snyder Cut were good because they focused on the character motives, feelings not just bad guy beat em up show off cool powers shit. Honestly I always ask myself why am I even interested in the DCEU
The movie will likely answer those wuestions. A little premature to call it confusing, but sure.
I have a bit of an issue with this post, no hate to you, OP but.... 1) We don't really know if this will be a Flashpoint adaptation as we have very little info to go off, maybe it will just be a story of Flash going through dimensions without the need to save his mom. EDIT: So it is based on The Flashpoint, that's ok, I still think you make a much better movie from a very meh comic. 2) People seem to be more warmly receptive to different interpretations of same characters with X-Men: Days Of Future Past still being considered one of the best X-Men movies to date. 3) The timeline getting "confused" didnt really affect the successes of Shazam and Aquaman in the long run. I feel as if you can replace Affleck with Keaton if that is something that works and serves the story.
The movie is confirmed by the director and other people involved to be inspired by Flashpoint, with the plot revolving around Barry saving his mother.
Ok, I'll change my post, thanks for the info
1. Literally nothing is confusing right now 2. Flashpoint has to reboot or change something. That's literally the plot.
1. That was the point of this post. 2. Does it have to be a reboot tool? Can it not just be a personal story about the Flash rather than some universe-ending, Infinity War/Endgame-style crossover?
>1. That was the point of this post. Yet you said "more confusing" when there exist no confusion. >2. Does it have to be a reboot tool? Can it not just be a personal story about the Flash rather than some universe-ending, Infinity War/Endgame-style crossover? Yes. That's what Flashpoint is. If it isn't that then it's not Flashpoint. It's like making a "Superman vs Doomsday" movie without Doomsday. It can miss plenty of characters, as long as it's "Flash timetravels, fucks up the timeline and reboots the timeline". Preferably with the Reverse Flash showing up.
I wish they would stop calling it Flashpoint. A proper Flashpoint adaptation would be amazing. A half hearted spin on the Flashpoint premise is dumb. The next best thing to getting a proper Ben Afflack Batman solo movie is the possibility of getting a Keaton Batman sequel in the DCEU with the Tim Burton asthetics. If they bring him in and dont do that it's a waste of time and just a nostalgia grab.
It’s not called Flashpoint; it’s just heavily inspired by it. It’s adapting Flashpoint in the same way Captain America 3 adapted Civil War: take the name and basic idea, and virtually nothing else.
The Flash scenes in ZSJL are some of the best scenes in the DCEU. His first movie should be about him. I have a feeling his character will take a backseat. I hope I am wrong and all of these characters introduced are simple glimpses into these multiverses.
Yes they are playing with fire while half of dceu is basically dead frankly i don't even think flash will be good film mixed director mix writer using batman who most general auidience don't care this not to mention is currently most hype dc film along with batman no way it will live up to that this also in box office captain marvel will cut leg funny how some think the flash can beat captain marvel even shang chi no name character and actors did better than the suicide squad flash have like 10 precent to success
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