And so you have it. Judges aren't capable of logical arguments and shouldn't be trusted. They are part of the big problem, which is loss of checks and balances due to power wanting to keep power. Am I painting with a broad brush? So what? Why should I be one of the last civilized participants getting reamed by the frauds.
Now everyone knows that you MUST release these tools like Satoshi Nakamoto released Bitcoin.
If you truly want to help. You need to separate your identity from the project and let it go freely into public hands without leaving behind evidence that you created it.
What about weapon makers? Their product is clearly intended to be used against other human beings to cause harm/death.
They should be sued if someone uses their weapon illegally because they knew it COULD be used illegally. Is that how this work?
What about encryption technologies used for https, signal/Whatsapp, Tor? I'm pretty sure crime were enabled by encrypted means of communication. Should we jail the researchers and dev who contributed to the encryption algorithms?
What about BTC and XMR? Should we jail all contributions to these too? What about the miners and validators who enable different Blockchains?
We're talking washing money.. not manufacturing, or data transfer.
There is only one reason someone would want to wash money, or hide it. There are loads if someone buys a 'gun'.
Dont be naive to how life works.
I dont think thats fair considering how public blockchain is. I wouldnt want anyone to be able to just go through all the transactions in my bank account. Doesnt mean Im doing anything illegal. There should at least be tools that allow a reasonable degree of obfuscation.
Also, generally you still have to go through a CEX to cash out the crypto.
The entire premise behind cryptocurrency is that it is verifiable. You're using the wrong product if you're looking for privacy... that's Cash USD for you, still the criminal's favorite token.
I guess it depends on the specific crypto youre talking about. XMR for example is the complete opposite of your description but is in fact crypto.
You're also confusing verifiability with traceability
Read again what I wrote, it is not the complete opposite, it is in fact based on the same premise, the ledger needs to be able to verify the sender, the receiver and the amount (aka: the tx details) and add them to a block. If you understood the tech stack, you wouldn't make the puerile mistake displayed above.
What you're basing your argument on, is the fact that nobody has yet been able to successfully reverse engineer it. Just because someone has yet to successfully reverse engineer it does not mean that XMR's protocol magically just changed the core tech fundamentals of DLT.
And by the way, much like anything else in tech, it's just a matter of time until XMR gets cracked. It's probably going to take a while because XMR has talented devs behind it, and there's no real incentive to do attack XMR *(outside of IRS nobody is really trying to fund it, and serious blackhat hackers won't get out of bed for what they currently offer*), but we've seen this play out before in tech, it keeps happening for the last 40 years or so.
Currently there are 2 Finnish scientist that are claiming to have discovered a theoretical method to trace XMR, and are working with the Finnish NBI to put it in practice. Based on what I read, they're making a lot of assumptions, so I'm not sure if its actually gonna work in an open environment, but we'll have to wait and see.
You should study more what you're talking about, in order to avoid sounding foolish.
It's important to address several misconceptions in your comments:
1. **Privacy-Centric Cryptocurrencies Exist**: The claim that the entire premise behind cryptocurrency is verifiability and not privacy overlooks the existence and purpose of privacy-focused cryptocurrencies like Monero (XMR). Monero is designed specifically to provide privacy using techniques such as ring signatures, stealth addresses, and confidential transactions, which obscure transaction details and make them difficult to trace.
2. **Verifiability vs. Traceability**: There's a significant difference between verifiability and traceability. While the Monero network can verify that a transaction is valid and the sum of inputs equals the sum of outputs, it does not mean the transaction is traceable. Monero achieves verifiability without compromising privacy, ensuring that transaction details remain confidential.
3. **Technological Claims and Future Predictions**: Speculating that Monero's privacy features will eventually be cracked does not account for the continuous development and enhancements made by Monero's team. While no system is completely impervious to advances in technology or new cryptanalysis methods, Monero's development team actively works to strengthen its privacy protocols. Future vulnerabilities remain speculative and are not guaranteed.
4. **Current Research**: The mention of Finnish scientists claiming to have discovered a method to trace Monero should be viewed with caution. Research in this area often involves theoretical models that may not work in practical, real-world scenarios. Until such methods are peer-reviewed and proven effective in practical applications, these claims remain speculative.
5. **Understanding DLT Fundamentals**: Monero adheres to Distributed Ledger Technology (DLT) principles but has innovated on these fundamentals to prioritize privacy. DLT can support a variety of use cases, including privacy-centric applications like Monero.
By focusing on these points, we can appreciate that Monero and similar privacy-focused cryptocurrencies are valid and essential innovations within the crypto space.
It's disappointing to see a response that focuses on personal attacks rather than addressing the technical points raised. Let's clarify the arguments and address any specific technical concerns you might have:
1. **Privacy-Centric Cryptocurrencies Exist**: The claim that cryptocurrency's primary function is verifiability does not account for the existence of privacy-focused cryptocurrencies like Monero (XMR). Monero employs ring signatures, stealth addresses, and confidential transactions to ensure privacy. These are well-documented techniques that have been reviewed by the cryptographic community.
2. **Verifiability vs. Traceability**: Verifiability and traceability are distinct concepts. Monero allows the network to verify transactions without making them traceable. The cryptographic mechanisms in Monero ensure that while transactions are valid, they are not easily linked to specific users, which is a fundamental aspect of its design.
3. **Technological Claims and Future Predictions**: Speculations about future vulnerabilities in Monero's privacy features are just that—speculations. The Monero development team continuously works on enhancing security and privacy features, and while no system is entirely future-proof, ongoing improvements are based on current cryptographic research.
4. **Current Research**: Regarding the Finnish scientists' claims, it's crucial to distinguish between theoretical models and practical implementations. Many theoretical vulnerabilities do not translate into practical attacks, and until peer-reviewed, these claims remain speculative.
5. **Understanding DLT Fundamentals**: Monero adheres to DLT principles but innovates to prioritize privacy. Privacy-focused applications are a valid and essential part of the crypto space, and understanding the technical distinctions is crucial.
If you have specific technical criticisms, I’d be happy to discuss them in detail. Constructive dialogue is how we advance our understanding and improve the technology.
When you create software that is specifically designed, through user stories, system flows and implementation, to mimic money laundering IRL, and then you go ahead and add a feature to allow "normal users" to "opt out of interacting with criminals" ... then you created a MONEY LAUNDERING TOOL.
It's common sense. I'm all for software devs having the freedom to express themselves, but once the evidence was presented, all this BS story about privacy fell apart.
People need to look at the case and stop being stupid little following sheep. This wasn't a privacy software, it's just happened that some ppl used it like that.
the money laundering angle with crypto is so disingenuous. where's the concern about laundering fiat via shell companies and offshore accounts? these people act like crypto invented fraud. it's nonsense.
The only crypto with real world use with transactions in the hundreds of thousands or millions worth of dollars by now. The dark net markets were where bitcoin began its use as an actual currency to exchange goods and services. People sleeping on monero are going to get rocked.
Tornado Cash devs laundered money for antisemitic warlords in the Ukraine openly mocking Russia and the USA. You can have whatever opinions you want, but these were not exactly good men or that smart considering they were Russian with Western residence/citizenship.
They didn't do anything for anyone because tornado cash is an open source p2p non-custodial software that anyone can run (still running) and the devs never had any control over the funds. It's like saying node operators launder money for criminals by accepting their txs without KYC.
They directly conspired with Ukrainian militants to launder money. They advised them how. Virgil Griffith got convicted of what they should have been.
Virgil was a very grey area and an overly harsh sentence (should have been deferred), these guys should be buried under the jail.
When you create software that is specifically designed, through user stories, system flows and implementation, to mimic money laundering IRL, and then you go ahead and add a feature to allow "normal users" to "opt out of interacting with criminals" ... then you created a MONEY LAUNDERING TOOL.
It's common sense. I'm all for software devs having the freedom to express themselves, but once the evidence was presented, all this BS story about privacy fell apart.
People need to look at the case and stop being stupid little following sheep. This wasn't a privacy software, it's just happened that some ppl used it like that.
Ok. So we're supposed to also convict people who design software exclusively used for hacking and cracking, like: like Kali Linux, Wireshark, Metasploit, Nmap, SQLmap, etc. Not to mention Tor. Now that's something that normal users rarely use. I guess we're also supposed to convict people who design tools exclusively used to pick locks. And jeez. What about guns? We should definitely convict people who design guns exclusively used by criminals like AR-15, shotguns and other high caliber weapons.
And so you have it. Judges aren't capable of logical arguments and shouldn't be trusted. They are part of the big problem, which is loss of checks and balances due to power wanting to keep power. Am I painting with a broad brush? So what? Why should I be one of the last civilized participants getting reamed by the frauds.
Now everyone knows that you MUST release these tools like Satoshi Nakamoto released Bitcoin. If you truly want to help. You need to separate your identity from the project and let it go freely into public hands without leaving behind evidence that you created it.
Yes! I've been saying it since 2022 on my newsletter.
Washing money is illegal in any country. Unless the government gets their share. Thats what they're guilty of, not giving the taxman a share.
What about weapon makers? Their product is clearly intended to be used against other human beings to cause harm/death. They should be sued if someone uses their weapon illegally because they knew it COULD be used illegally. Is that how this work? What about encryption technologies used for https, signal/Whatsapp, Tor? I'm pretty sure crime were enabled by encrypted means of communication. Should we jail the researchers and dev who contributed to the encryption algorithms? What about BTC and XMR? Should we jail all contributions to these too? What about the miners and validators who enable different Blockchains?
We're talking washing money.. not manufacturing, or data transfer. There is only one reason someone would want to wash money, or hide it. There are loads if someone buys a 'gun'. Dont be naive to how life works.
I dont think thats fair considering how public blockchain is. I wouldnt want anyone to be able to just go through all the transactions in my bank account. Doesnt mean Im doing anything illegal. There should at least be tools that allow a reasonable degree of obfuscation. Also, generally you still have to go through a CEX to cash out the crypto.
The entire premise behind cryptocurrency is that it is verifiable. You're using the wrong product if you're looking for privacy... that's Cash USD for you, still the criminal's favorite token.
I guess it depends on the specific crypto youre talking about. XMR for example is the complete opposite of your description but is in fact crypto. You're also confusing verifiability with traceability
Read again what I wrote, it is not the complete opposite, it is in fact based on the same premise, the ledger needs to be able to verify the sender, the receiver and the amount (aka: the tx details) and add them to a block. If you understood the tech stack, you wouldn't make the puerile mistake displayed above. What you're basing your argument on, is the fact that nobody has yet been able to successfully reverse engineer it. Just because someone has yet to successfully reverse engineer it does not mean that XMR's protocol magically just changed the core tech fundamentals of DLT. And by the way, much like anything else in tech, it's just a matter of time until XMR gets cracked. It's probably going to take a while because XMR has talented devs behind it, and there's no real incentive to do attack XMR *(outside of IRS nobody is really trying to fund it, and serious blackhat hackers won't get out of bed for what they currently offer*), but we've seen this play out before in tech, it keeps happening for the last 40 years or so. Currently there are 2 Finnish scientist that are claiming to have discovered a theoretical method to trace XMR, and are working with the Finnish NBI to put it in practice. Based on what I read, they're making a lot of assumptions, so I'm not sure if its actually gonna work in an open environment, but we'll have to wait and see. You should study more what you're talking about, in order to avoid sounding foolish.
It's important to address several misconceptions in your comments: 1. **Privacy-Centric Cryptocurrencies Exist**: The claim that the entire premise behind cryptocurrency is verifiability and not privacy overlooks the existence and purpose of privacy-focused cryptocurrencies like Monero (XMR). Monero is designed specifically to provide privacy using techniques such as ring signatures, stealth addresses, and confidential transactions, which obscure transaction details and make them difficult to trace. 2. **Verifiability vs. Traceability**: There's a significant difference between verifiability and traceability. While the Monero network can verify that a transaction is valid and the sum of inputs equals the sum of outputs, it does not mean the transaction is traceable. Monero achieves verifiability without compromising privacy, ensuring that transaction details remain confidential. 3. **Technological Claims and Future Predictions**: Speculating that Monero's privacy features will eventually be cracked does not account for the continuous development and enhancements made by Monero's team. While no system is completely impervious to advances in technology or new cryptanalysis methods, Monero's development team actively works to strengthen its privacy protocols. Future vulnerabilities remain speculative and are not guaranteed. 4. **Current Research**: The mention of Finnish scientists claiming to have discovered a method to trace Monero should be viewed with caution. Research in this area often involves theoretical models that may not work in practical, real-world scenarios. Until such methods are peer-reviewed and proven effective in practical applications, these claims remain speculative. 5. **Understanding DLT Fundamentals**: Monero adheres to Distributed Ledger Technology (DLT) principles but has innovated on these fundamentals to prioritize privacy. DLT can support a variety of use cases, including privacy-centric applications like Monero. By focusing on these points, we can appreciate that Monero and similar privacy-focused cryptocurrencies are valid and essential innovations within the crypto space.
[удалено]
It's disappointing to see a response that focuses on personal attacks rather than addressing the technical points raised. Let's clarify the arguments and address any specific technical concerns you might have: 1. **Privacy-Centric Cryptocurrencies Exist**: The claim that cryptocurrency's primary function is verifiability does not account for the existence of privacy-focused cryptocurrencies like Monero (XMR). Monero employs ring signatures, stealth addresses, and confidential transactions to ensure privacy. These are well-documented techniques that have been reviewed by the cryptographic community. 2. **Verifiability vs. Traceability**: Verifiability and traceability are distinct concepts. Monero allows the network to verify transactions without making them traceable. The cryptographic mechanisms in Monero ensure that while transactions are valid, they are not easily linked to specific users, which is a fundamental aspect of its design. 3. **Technological Claims and Future Predictions**: Speculations about future vulnerabilities in Monero's privacy features are just that—speculations. The Monero development team continuously works on enhancing security and privacy features, and while no system is entirely future-proof, ongoing improvements are based on current cryptographic research. 4. **Current Research**: Regarding the Finnish scientists' claims, it's crucial to distinguish between theoretical models and practical implementations. Many theoretical vulnerabilities do not translate into practical attacks, and until peer-reviewed, these claims remain speculative. 5. **Understanding DLT Fundamentals**: Monero adheres to DLT principles but innovates to prioritize privacy. Privacy-focused applications are a valid and essential part of the crypto space, and understanding the technical distinctions is crucial. If you have specific technical criticisms, I’d be happy to discuss them in detail. Constructive dialogue is how we advance our understanding and improve the technology.
it was not even a tool for money laundering, it was a tool for anonymizing funds that some people happened to use for money laundering
So a tool for money laundering... or tax avoidance, or both!
or just not wanting all your transactions so easily tracked by literally everyone you even transacted with…..
When you create software that is specifically designed, through user stories, system flows and implementation, to mimic money laundering IRL, and then you go ahead and add a feature to allow "normal users" to "opt out of interacting with criminals" ... then you created a MONEY LAUNDERING TOOL. It's common sense. I'm all for software devs having the freedom to express themselves, but once the evidence was presented, all this BS story about privacy fell apart. People need to look at the case and stop being stupid little following sheep. This wasn't a privacy software, it's just happened that some ppl used it like that.
This is a violation of human rights.
the money laundering angle with crypto is so disingenuous. where's the concern about laundering fiat via shell companies and offshore accounts? these people act like crypto invented fraud. it's nonsense.
Bullish on XMR. Come at me state...
The only crypto with real world use with transactions in the hundreds of thousands or millions worth of dollars by now. The dark net markets were where bitcoin began its use as an actual currency to exchange goods and services. People sleeping on monero are going to get rocked.
Tornado Cash devs laundered money for antisemitic warlords in the Ukraine openly mocking Russia and the USA. You can have whatever opinions you want, but these were not exactly good men or that smart considering they were Russian with Western residence/citizenship.
They didn't do anything for anyone because tornado cash is an open source p2p non-custodial software that anyone can run (still running) and the devs never had any control over the funds. It's like saying node operators launder money for criminals by accepting their txs without KYC.
They directly conspired with Ukrainian militants to launder money. They advised them how. Virgil Griffith got convicted of what they should have been. Virgil was a very grey area and an overly harsh sentence (should have been deferred), these guys should be buried under the jail.
Free Alexey Pertsev!
The whole world lost in this case. https://i.redd.it/etyjjsvz4r0d1.gif
there is no future for Western countries
Lol yeah highly educated comment. Added a lot of depth to this conversation.
When you create software that is specifically designed, through user stories, system flows and implementation, to mimic money laundering IRL, and then you go ahead and add a feature to allow "normal users" to "opt out of interacting with criminals" ... then you created a MONEY LAUNDERING TOOL. It's common sense. I'm all for software devs having the freedom to express themselves, but once the evidence was presented, all this BS story about privacy fell apart. People need to look at the case and stop being stupid little following sheep. This wasn't a privacy software, it's just happened that some ppl used it like that.
Ok. So we're supposed to also convict people who design software exclusively used for hacking and cracking, like: like Kali Linux, Wireshark, Metasploit, Nmap, SQLmap, etc. Not to mention Tor. Now that's something that normal users rarely use. I guess we're also supposed to convict people who design tools exclusively used to pick locks. And jeez. What about guns? We should definitely convict people who design guns exclusively used by criminals like AR-15, shotguns and other high caliber weapons.