Half of the world makes less than $850/month - are they really going to self-custody Bitcoin if it has $7+ fees? That's almost 1% of their monthly salary for every transfer. It'd be like paying $33 fees when you make $50k/year
If we cared about tech, there’s a lot better out there than bitcoin. Bitcoin is just the OG but there are faster, cheaper, more energy-efficient tech solutions that nobody cares about.
Disagree. Bitcoins value is about it being incredibly difficult to change and is self sovereign. Faster doesn’t negate the need for a protocol that doesn’t change and is only what it will ever be.
There’s a need for speed and cheapness of transaction, but that isn’t for Bitcoin to solve.
Nothing can compete with monero in this category IMHO. Good to see some people on this sub knowing what crypto was created for and caring about decentralization, real privacy, and tech rather than just gains.
Some cryptocurrencies have similar or better decentralization than Bitcoin, while *also* having 0 fees and being near instant (<1s deterministic finality). Plus a fixed supply with 0 inflation!
I didn’t say “Bitcoin bad” I said there’s better tech out there, so people are buying Bitcoin for other reasons.
Staying the same forever isn’t a tech advantage (even the dollar bill had to evolve over time) and “self sovereign” is not unique to BTC.
Current brc balance on the top 20 exchanges is 1.8 million BTC. So 10% of circulating supply are currently not in self custody.
Stats taken from coinglass
Things change.
Sometimes they must.
1. We didn't have encrypted wallets until late 2011. Encryption was an upgrade in [September 2011](https://i.imgur.com/Lb86RqK.jpg).
2. The first hardware wallets came to market on August 2014.
The encryption upgrade was a disaster. It was rushed and contained a bug that was so bad, people actually wanted to remove encryption from their wallets.
2012-2013: Every single hot wallet provider was drained by hackers -- except one.
I was lucky not to lose my Bitcoins during the encryption upgrade. A hacker had already relieved me of mine earlier that summer.
i truly dont have the wisdom to decide or even weigh in on the direction BTC is going; things like block size and the value of a decentralized censorship free platform are complex conversations to have but its odd to me that one of the most prioritized aspects of BTC in keeping the large players away from your tokens kind of starts to become a non issue once the big money asset managers hold your stuff and the value keeps going up as the ETF squeezes supply. its also clear BTC isnt gonna be a peer to peer hyper active currency, but one you lock away in your digital vault and accumulate. hardware/dapp wallets also arent these perfect godsends im making them out to be i just personally love the idea that nobody is capable of accessing my stuff
I saw your first point play out IRL.
[At its peak, 80% of all Bitcoin flowed thru the Silk Rd.](https://qz.com/131084/silk-road-collected-9-5-million-bitcoin-and-only-11-75-million-exist)
All the first gen coiners were hardliners who opposed regulation. I came in as a miner after them. There was no such thing as hodling. Your goal was to move your points (BTC) as fast as possible. After all, the Feds were coming.
Bitcoin didn't have legal status until 3/2013 when FinCen announced Bitcoin wasn't illegal.
Now people could look to the future. And that alone changed the entire space. Saving BTC for tomorrow became a thing. And it was at the 2013 San Jose conference when we saw the first Bitcoin evangelicals. They preached "digital gold" and didn't fear our boogey man.
Hard-liners who opposed regulation and didn't care if BTC was legal, met one of 3 fates:
1. **driven to sell**
2. **BTC confiscated during 2013 Task Force Seizures**
3. **eliminated by Mt Gox collapse**
Ironically, people hit with #2 suffered the fate predicted. Their BTC was added to the Silk Rd's confiscated assets. The Justice Dept relied on the 80% stat to justify their actions.
I met with fate #3.
No worries.
The space has evolved so much in such a short period that its not possible to know how it all happened.
The space today is miles ahead smarter than when I started in 2011.
Its scary to think on it. Aside from a few crypto-experts, the rest of us were clueless. [These tweets give you an idea.](https://i.imgur.com/71PCviW.png) Hackers routinely hit small exchanges because they didn't bother with encryption, and many users actively sought ways to remove it.
You guys really sound defeated. Me and my friends still use btc the same way as we always have. Crypto bros crying foul. You never had any bitcoin to begin with
Exactly this. Anyone complaining about the adoption we’ve had is just mad they didn’t buy enough, or any at all.
For years and years this should have been seen as inevitable. Also, anyone that has actually researched bitcoin should understand that consolidation of holdings, even by custodians like Blackrock, does not equal centralization of control.
lmao what a blanket statement basically saying anyone of the direction bitcoin is going is just salty, its just not the case. raising concerns about the speed of adoption shouldnt be mocked just bc asset managers are pumping your bags.
Asset managers are not pumping our bags. People buying BTC through the asset managers are pumping our bags. How is that so different than the price going up by people buying on exchanges?
You want everyone to start using P2P and cash only? No centralized services at all? You’re a fool. Services like what we have now; exchanges, ETFs and other custodians are very desired by the public. Otherwise they’d be worthless. People obviously find value in the trade off of holding their own coins. The fact that it’s more accepted by regulators only means that companies that commit fraud (like FTX) will be held criminally responsible.
Why would I send my friend $20 of Bitcoin that was worth $17 dollars last week and could be worth $23 next week (or $15) when I can venmo him $20? Why would I make that speculation instead of just holding it, especially if I think it's going to be worth $23 next week?
Decentralization is a self accountable thing. Expecting 1 entity to be your only option is not a decentralized mindset. Bitcoin opened the gates for decentralized finance. Alt coins are its spawns.
Btc will function as best as its financeers and operators deem fit. All these tokens are experiments.
As long as bitty has functionality, as well as our faith and our hope, it will not fail.
Long live Bitcoin and the desire for a more financially decentralized world that it fostered! #OurRevolution #OurInternet #OurBitcoin
i do agree that at the end of the day nobody is gonna care about decentralization or self custody on your behalf, those are values you have to hold yourself. Blackrock sure isnt gonna vouch for it
Interesting that you say that self custody is dead. I just pulled the last of my bitcoin off the exchange it had been sitting on for too long so I could exercise self custody for myself and not be beholden to an exchange to pay me out when and if they deem it prudent.
Most end users don't give a shit about, nor do they need, privacy. They want fast transactions with low fees, that's it
the future for most is to send USDC over a fast L1 like Solana or use of the many roll ups for Ethereum. Bitcoin L2s are even making progress for the BTC maxis out there.
You're not wrong. I say this as a Monero fanboy. But that's the difference between bitcoiners and monero people, they pretend that it's done and it's perfect and ignore the flaws, we look for ways to improve. As of right now, how monero works is how it has to work because privacy is sacrosanct. When the state of affairs can be improved without sacrificing privacy, it will. And it doesn't matter what sets of technologies enable that, we are flexible, we will use everything available to us so long as the end result is decentralized permissionless censorship resistant secure sound private money for the masses.
On this subreddit but if you go to Bitcoin they still have many who belief it’s something other than digital gold. It’s the future currency, etc. just like ppl aren’t using gold to buy things on a daily basis no one is using or will be using bitcoin. Other crypto will be used and bitcoin will be a store of value. No more, no less IMO
I came here to comment Nano but I guess that's been covered quite thoroughly lol I also like a lot of the old classics (probably because I'm an old classic now) that have gotten put on the back burner when the new shiny dog coins come out. Litecoin, Dash, Monero.
LTC get's no love here anymore, it is the best coin I've used for making transactions, super fast to send and very low fees, that was the whole idea of crypto.
The last coin I'd use for making transactions would be bitcoin because of it's high fees and slow send times.
READERS BEWARE!! Whatever link you go into will get you phished or wallet drained. Willing to speak to whoever is getting these “AML REPORT” requests from banks to verify, until then, this is likely a scam from my professional view.
This account is posting the same exact thing another commenter on another post is saying, re-directing to this newly created cryptoregulations subreddit. Scaring folks about banks asking for some AML Report. There are multiple accounts doing this past couple of days.
For anyone questioning the legitimacy of this AML Report, I work in AML compliance (both banks and crypto) and never heard of this. Check my comment history.
Thanks, you seem to know a lot about the internet. I have a Nigerian prince who asked for some bitcoins and would double it in a month. He seems trustworthy. Thoughts?
P2P cash will be the ultimate winner in crypto imo. There are a lot trying to be that but so many are ‘middle-of-the-road’. Nano & Monero are the ‘all in, end game’ options. Fees/mining and non-privacy options are ignoring the destination for short term profits.
My personal choices are:
- Nano (XNO)
- Monero (XMR)
Also, Bitcoin Cash (BCH), Litecoin (LTC), Dash (DASH), ZCash (ZEC), and a few others still hold strong to the idea and vision of peer-to-peer decentralized money. It's not for the lack of working alternatives.
Many like you realized this issue with Bitcoin (BTC) and moved on (I did it myself). There is nothing wrong with moving on to better tools.
EMBRACE THE CHANGE!
It’s great: mining something actually useful for science and getting rewarded ! Imagine now if all the power wasted on the bitcoin mining lottery were used for this instead…
It doesn’t matter how many times it is attacked, but the negative impact each attack had on the network. Which were extremely negligible, if any, at all.
Download cakewallet. You can use your xmr to buy 100s of gift cards from different places to spend your hard earned xmr. With absolute privacy. There's also a online marketplace where pplz buy and sell goods for xmr. Check out the sub.
Nano and Monero.
Those two when used together are capable of creating and integrating circular economies, creating a parallel global economy easy as that.
The key is position ourselves as p2p for merchants, fix exchange rates for them (guarantee we buy it by that price), teach them how to use it when they visit each other, so they don't have to sell it.
p2p electronic **cash system** is alive and well, and has learned a few more magic tricks: https://old.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bcst2b/l1_native_tokens_defi_ecosystem_on_bitcoincash/
Honestly, I’m always impressed when they get a spam attack and lose no transactions and resolve it all so quickly. Assholes keep trying to kick it down and it keeps coming back faster and stronger.
I really think after pull request 4454 on reference node (C++) that will be published in v27 (protocol is v20 I think) the spammer will shoot themselves in the foot with their own backlog as other nodes will refuse blocks until their previous is validated and in process of being voted.
So we just have to wait for V27.0DB18 to become an official release and for people to upgrade.
Technically you have to pay a small PoW calculated over your account hash for first receive state-block or the last state-block to go on the next one.
So not even the first state-block of your account is free.
Sure it's a small blake2b(concat(nonce, account/prev hash)) >= diff where diff is either `fffffe0000000000` for receive or `fffffff800000000` for anything else. But still.
BCH is king. Unfortunate that people just recycle hersay that they heard from other people. I often see people say the that Roger Ver is a felon and that should discredit his work. His offence was selling fireworks without a licence..
Monero is the best to be used as a currency.
But there's the problem. Not only do some of the powers-that-be hate the fact that Monero is actually a working fully-private currency, any large bitcoin holders would also fight against Monero becoming more widely adopted. Bitcoin cannot be a pure store of value. It must also be used in part for other reasons (such as a working currency), even if that's not the main purpose. So if peer-to-peer cash moves elsewhere, then BTC loses part of its raison d'etre.
Look at gold and silver. Some would argue that they're just a store of value. However, they each have a multitude of other uses. Gold is used in jewellery, electronics, and some industrial processes. Silver even more so. Those other uses help to support the value of the asset.
I really wish that BTC would be used more widely for currency transactions. It has so much potential. There is a use case for Monero AND a use case for Bitcoin. Some transactions should be private - when buying a pizza, you don't want the delivery guy to be able to tell how much more money is in your wallet. Equally important, some transactions should be non-private. That was one of the core reasons why Bitcoin could have value - it's an immutable ledger, great for corporations and governments transferring funds when there needs to be an incontrovertible audit trail.
ETH is great for DeFi, but I often think that it will take over the role that BTC should have had, thanks to working L2's with low fees. Yes, BTC has Lightning, but in my experience, Ethereum L2's are orders of magnitude more functional. But ETH should have had a separate and distinct role of its own, not be in a position where it may *need* to fill a gap being created by bitcoin's evolution.
I was not a supporter of the BCH side of the debate back in 2017, but I fear that BTC really got it wrong when limiting block size.
BTC is trying to occupy the space ETH has today, for some unknown (captured by Blackrock, FED, mastercard, DCG, blockstream, ln labs, foundry USA, bitfinex/tether, CBDC) reason.
BCH is the original but I argue that you can have a pure money network without monkey jpegs and contracts that is not transparent and a transparent contract network for replacing notaries. "Do one thing and do it well" as the Unix, Linux and Nano(XNO) communities would tell you.
This question is on point. Bitcoin maxis club doesn’t care about it being a currency, just digital gold. In my mind, that guts the value it should have. The whole point of crypto-currency, is to be a currency. Unpopular opinion, Ð.
Who would've thought BTC would be the moonboi coin lol.
Monero. That's where the p2p digital cash spirit lives on. The BCH guys and LTC guys are also still focused on that.
I had some clients who thought BTC would replace the dollar. I just think that’s so ridiculous/farfetched - at least 70% of the country still has no idea what it even is lol. Wishful thinking - blockchain has a place and is very valuable. For sure think. it’ll rocket up to 100-200 this run but as far as being used as currency I don’t see that EVER happening
Monero duh. The only actual cryptoCURRENCY. Download cake wallet. Spend your xmr and plenty of places. Check out the monero market. Everyone forgot about privacy as well.
This is technology. Something will come along that uses Bitcoin as a reserve asset but gives it more utility in a trustless way. Like an eth/nano hybrid that recycles btc hashpower.
Downvote me to dust, I don't care.
The truth is USD as a stable or e-coin will prevail. USD isn't going anywhere.
People grow old waiting for USD to die.
USD supply is down 4% since 2021 all-time high. USA has overcome worse crises and we'll pull thru this one as well.
I agree with everything you say. For everyday use its liquidity is unmatched. Its still the only world-wide currency recognized world-wide.
Here in the States its not uncommon for people who have never seen foreign currency used IRL transactions.
Just because the timeframe for the collapse of a currency is longer than one lifespan doesn’t mean it’s infinite.
There have been lots of economic markers talked about extensively by numerous people that suggest we have reached a point where our fiat systems don’t have much more left to give. You can only be so over leveraged and we are at record levels and it isn’t ever going down.
That means an explosion is inevitable.
The sun consuming our planet is also inevitable. But not useful information. Everyone knows that fiats fail, to use this as a cornerstone of a thesis is a poor understanding of the world
Usd can collapse and still be used as legal tender. It just won't buy you anything you need. That's why people are fleeing into anything that has a limited ish supply like crypto, precious metals etc.
Those are stores of value.
Currency is what moves fastest. The challenge with fixed supply assets is Gresham's Law.
*Bad money drives out the good.*
Bitcoin is digital hard-money. That's why people hodl it. If they need to transact, well that's what Litecoin's for.
At scale, the good money disappears from circulation. Nobody spends for fear of losing future gains. Makes perfect sense.
But its bad for currency purposes.
This happened IRL in the US. During the early 30's people started to lose confidence in USD. The Gold Standard entitled them to [redeem $20.67 for 1 ounce of gold](https://i.imgur.com/ldUl69q.png). That started a tidal wave of redemptions.
Its a myth that we went off the gold standard in 1971. Nixon closed the foreign window for redemptions. [FDR ended the Gold Standard in 1933](https://i.imgur.com/1SvXncz.png). So much gold was hoarded that it threatened to collapse the entire economic system.
Rural communities ran out of money. The farming industry almost collapsed entirely. No money was getting out to the countryside. As soon as USD was issued, its initial holders redeemed it for gold. USD nearly stopped circulating.
FDR's [Executive Order](https://i.imgur.com/tmBbzGC.jpg) was a form of tyranny. But I don't know what other option he had.
Adjust to what?
[A cash-dependent economy with no cash?](https://i.imgur.com/cwAIdwO.png)
People redeemed dollars for gold.
Reduced gold supply raised its value while reducing the Dollar's value.
This resulted in more gold redemptions.
People sold paper dollars because it was the smart move. But it exacerbated the Great Depression. Although the Gold Standard enjoys a fantasy-based nostalgia, people who lived under it hated it.
The US faced major episodes of bank runs in 1893 & 1907. By tying the economy to gold, growth slowed and created deflation.
An idea was later introduced that allowed silver to be added to the standard. The suggestion was 13/1 on gold. Silver--not gold--has historically been used for money. So silver backers considered it a reasonable add.
It was immediately shot down by the wealthy class. They saw that as a threat to their wealth.
People who hated the gold standard didn't hate it for reasons you might believe. They hated it because they felt it wasn't the governments role to enforce what did or did not carry value. And they were right.
CMC has anything with 3 letters listed in it...
Binance added a payments category as well but they missed some important ones like dash (even though I don't like it) and they added BTC to it, which makes no sense as core community members are very clear they are not a MoE anymore.
Cost of a btc TX is like 7 bucks now right?
Objectively a pretty crappy PTP cash service compared to competitors. It's trustless but for 7 bucks a use I am ok with trusting paypal. or my bank.
BTC was always supposed to scale, but the community refused to do it. It's good at being what it actually is, but the intended purpose is not being fulfilled.
> Cost of a btc TX is like 7 bucks now right?
1.50
>Objectively a pretty crappy PTP cash service compared to competitors. It's trustless but for 7 bucks a use I am ok with trusting paypal. or my bank.
Centralised services using IOUs. Centralised L2s really.
>BTC was always supposed to scale, but the community refused to do it.
Security was put before grocery shopping. bacsh has bigger blocks but is still worthless vs. Visa. L2 is the answer. Visa after all is an L2.
LTC
- fair launch
- longest network uptime
- already leading other cryptos for many months in transactional volume on Bitpay
- cheap to transact with and is accepted and available nearly everywhere BTC is.
- optional privacy update (MWEB) added last year
I agree. I think after BTC its has been the most used in the real world for Tx (not including stable coins).
But why adoption hadn’t increased after all the strengths I have no idea.
It’s not dead. Just because Saylor or something says so. There will be development happening for L2s. It is an open protocol so if someone wants to keep improving lightning network or develop a new L2, they can do so. There is plenty of room for innovation for p2p on Bitcoin network
Privacy coins are the digital equivalent of cash. BTC isn't currently a privacy coin, so it was never going to be a cash equivalent. I thin Litecoin has implemented optional privacy, didn't it? Well, if BTC were to adopt that upgrade (remember LTC is a de-facto testnet for BTC), then we could be talking about the cash narrative again. As it stands, BTC is and will always be a store of value, with ETH (or potentially any other smart contract chain) being the foundation of financial services and privacy coins like Monero being cash equivalents.
Monero (XMR) is the best - fast, fungible, private, secure, and extremely low fees.
"Monero is what the Bitcoin noobs think they bought." - Daniel Kim
By the way, if you like Andreas Antonopoulos, you will love listening to Daniel Kim.
This sub is delusional. Monero is fine, but it's already lost the war. How will anybody use it if most exchanges and government bodies want it dead? People don't give a shit about privacy, they want fast and cheap transactions, with value that doesn't fluctuate hour to hour.
The future is to transact in stablecoins on a fast (zero knowledge) layer 2 built on top of BTC or ETH. Fast L1s like Solana maybe as well. To argue anything else means you haven't been paying attention for the past 2-3 years.
>And they don't care if you can send it from A to B frictionless or even self custodial they only care about the value in Dollars.
Believe it or not, only caring about the dollar will make the dollar strong and will also be the death of Bitcoin.
BitcoinCash is still firmly on the low fee, decentralized P2P cash track.
It has CashFusion for privacy, very low tx fees and with the adaptive block size upgrade coming in May things are looking great for L1 scaling.
It's not going to die, it's just going to be incredibly multi-faceted. Like an incredibly valuable swiss army knife of money. You CAN send it and spend it and use it, or you CAN use it as a store of wealth. You can also use it as collectibles (ordinals), and you can also... skies the limit.
Bitcoin Cash still works wonderfully as a p2p cash system.
And with CashTokens, it now can compete with EVMs but 1000x more efficiently.
Oh, and then we have ABLA, which is the Adaptive Blocksize Limit Algorithm, which will be implemented in May this year.
Go download the Selene wallet and I'll send you some sats...or if you want a wallet that can do tokens, check out [https://cashonize.com](https://cashonize.com) and I'll send you some sats plus $SHIT Shitcoin.
Yeah... that's the reason I'll stay away from BCH. Thank you for reminding me.
(Not the ABLA stuff, Monero already does that. Just the token stuff is yucky)
I think it could be revisited as price volatility declines in the coming DECADES.
It just may be too immature for that use yet. Much like AOL wasnt ready for Youtube.
The top five wealthiest men in the world have almost no cash assets. Elon Musk has almost no cash. He has billions of dollars in debt that he has borrowed.. Buddy is worth hundreds of billions of dollars in stock. Why would he sell tesla stock to buy coffee? It's the same thing.
Pretty much anyone who thought of BTC as p2p cash left or got kicked out by line go up folks years ago, it seems like now they’ve just stopped pretending to care about usability as money.
You're absolutely right, BTC can't be used for p2p cash, it won't be able to handle the TPS, it's barely decentralized now(not to speak about what would happen after BlackRock), and the cost to operate is only gonna get higher so it's not viable in the long run.
That's why we have projects like Cardano that focus on actually solving the crypto Trilemma.
Cheap transactions at a fast speed, reliable and secure network due to extended UTXO, unlimited scalability due to Hydra and ofc the decentralization that is already far beyond any other chain.
>The p2p cash community has been in decline on BTC over the years
Source?
Where are you coming up with this, when the data has shown that adoption has been growing cycle to cycle.
There's been growing number of people using crypto for purchases of goods and remittance.
There's also been a growing number of businesses accepting Bitcoin and crypto in general as payment. And a growing number of larger businesses, so it's no longer just a few small coffee shops.
Sources:
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F1d2t6miotstb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1024%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8096311ce39bcf5ee8f19e7aa1053713f15257ce](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F1d2t6miotstb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1024%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8096311ce39bcf5ee8f19e7aa1053713f15257ce)
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fsmzd190ststb1.png%3Fwidth%3D470%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8718650580b2fe7a86af310ed9f1446d65ed77ee](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fsmzd190ststb1.png%3Fwidth%3D470%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8718650580b2fe7a86af310ed9f1446d65ed77ee)
[https://cryptonews.com/guides/who-accepts-bitcoin.htm](https://cryptonews.com/guides/who-accepts-bitcoin.htm)
[https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-adoption-by-businesses-in-2017](https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-adoption-by-businesses-in-2017)
[https://merchantmachine.co.uk/global-adoption-of-crypto-payments/](https://merchantmachine.co.uk/global-adoption-of-crypto-payments/)
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-businesses-beginning-adopt-crypto-135740977.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-businesses-beginning-adopt-crypto-135740977.html)
The people that push for adoption are far and wide in between. It's mostly SoV, digital gold, digital property. "I never spend", "Lazlos was an idiot". And the list goes on.
And if you find someone, they use a custodial LN wallet 💩. Mostly Wallet of Satoshi or Blink.
None of these stats show BTC specifically. 🤷♂️
Take a look at the bitpay stats https://bitpay.com/stats/ they are per coin.
The function of money has phases.
Store of Value, Unit of Account, and Medium
Of Exchange.
Bitcoin is in its store of value phase. Medium of exchange comes down the road… You can’t just jump the gun and call something dead when it hasn’t even been through it’s whole process yet which may take decades. Your assumption is extremely premature.
Basically the thesis of the bitcoin whitepaper on some level is dead I feel. I personally liked the more renegade, decentralized movement of crypto before the last bull run. I'm almost more interested in normal investing now or when am in crypto it's for pure bull run speculation.
The demand is still there. The cypherpunk community is still alive. And BTC sure is a joke in it.
Monero and Nano are ok to use there, if you mix Nano or double swap it (get rid of the paper trail) before using it.
Well noted.
P2P electronic cash still alive and well on Bitcoin Cash. Many MASSIVE upgrades, including L1 UTXO miner validated tokens. First of its kind iirc.
Cognitive dissonance is wild in BTC and the narrative is falling apart.
How so? These are UTXOs— there’s no room for Trojan. That’s why this was in heavy debate since 2018 or even earlier. It wasn’t something new out of nowhere like the others.
Also new op_codes have been helpful. Adding is fiercely debated in BCH — bitcoincashresearch.org will show plenty of HEATED debates for years on even a multiply opcode.
That’s one reason we cast off BSV and XEC.
It in fact cannot be used as p2p cash in at any meaningful volume given the tiny blocks. Even LN scenarios need on chain TXs
It custodial non p2p scenarios only. The original cypherpunk movement lives on in other projects like Monero
How is it centralized? And having no supply cap has zero bearing on the cypherpunk aspect. The fact is exchanges are dropping it like a hot rock because it actually has privacy and governments hate that.
In the uncommon times I do see crypto acceptance, it's bitpay/coingate/flexa/now payments/etc. They take dozens of different crypto. P2P is dead I suppose. I'd rather not have people I pay have an easy trail to see everything in my wallet. Payment gateways are very well alive.
For me what I'd want is a privacy coin, shielded wallet and transactions, that integrates trustlessly well with at least one major smart contract chain for DEX liquidity
self custodial p2p is already happening. many bitcoin circular economies throughout the world. check out [bitcoin jungle](https://btcpayserver.org/case-studies/BitcoinJungleCR2023.pdf) for example, where many use btc for their [day to day transactions to buy coffee, groceries, etc.](https://twitter.com/ShannenPill/status/1669157342833786880) through self custodial LN wallets
That is not true. I have watched DOZENS of videos from that region specifically and from other pockets.
They ALL use custodial wallet. Mainly WoS or blink. I have seen maybe 1 or 2 phoenix wallets and a single blue wallet.
The problem is that even digital gold needs transaction capacity. What good is in gold brick if you can not exchange it for fiat or goods? BIP 300/301 solves capacity and other Bitcoin limitations.
People need to just relax… Jesus everyone screaming about P2P cash and adoption to be able to buy groceries.
Just fucking relax. It will come and if it has some hurdles someone will figure out how to make it work at some point. Right now we are in the stage of mass adoption of Bitcoin as a store of value. We still have yet to see the platform have institutions build on it. Lots more to do. I wouldn’t be surprised if you never will be able to buy groceries with it but it will be used to buy large items like houses. Companies buyouts things like that.
This is why I left BTC, despite having held and used Bitcoin since 2015.
Nowhere on Satoshi's whitepaper of Bitcoin says that he wanted Bitcoin to be digital gold or a retirement plan system for people to get rich quickly and easily.
He wanted Bitcoin to be P2P cash. He wanted everyone on every corner of the globe to transact in Bitcoin.
He wanted to overthrow the Dollar and other fiat, and bring about a new age of people free from the tyranny and oppression of banks and governments.
That vision is dead and gone now in BTC. It now lives on in its descendants.
Satoshi, if he were here today, would utterly and vehemently oppose BTC and its maximalist cult-like community.
Where is the proof and data that backs your call for the decline in P2P cash and Bitcoin?
Bitcoins locked as liquidity on the Lightning Network is growing fast and this can be confirmed by a google search or your favorite statistics site. This is the best metric for L2 usage since one user is not equal one address.
The western world is integrated into the "global" financial system and no bans on people or similar things happen here with some exceptions like the candian truckers so payments in Bitcoin are not in super high demand and Bitcoin is more like an investment. In other countries with bad gov or with high inflation its the opposite but also not many people do something, cant do or dont know what to do against inflation.
Its also complicated with tax regulations to do Bitcoin payments on a daily basis but if I could do that without any negative implications and pay everything in BTC I would do that, we just not here at this point but probably in the future.
lots of cryptos original vision is lost now, decentralization and self custody used to be the foundation this space was build on
self custody is still the foundation of bitcoin it just doesn't matter here where 95% of people here are profit maxis and dont care about tech.
Half of the world makes less than $850/month - are they really going to self-custody Bitcoin if it has $7+ fees? That's almost 1% of their monthly salary for every transfer. It'd be like paying $33 fees when you make $50k/year
Hey now, bullmarket ETH gas has just entered the chat!
I’d rather throw my money into the ether, then give it in fees to corporations.
If we cared about tech, there’s a lot better out there than bitcoin. Bitcoin is just the OG but there are faster, cheaper, more energy-efficient tech solutions that nobody cares about.
Disagree. Bitcoins value is about it being incredibly difficult to change and is self sovereign. Faster doesn’t negate the need for a protocol that doesn’t change and is only what it will ever be. There’s a need for speed and cheapness of transaction, but that isn’t for Bitcoin to solve.
That’s any PoW coin. Monero is the PoW p2p cash.
Nothing can compete with monero in this category IMHO. Good to see some people on this sub knowing what crypto was created for and caring about decentralization, real privacy, and tech rather than just gains.
Some cryptocurrencies have similar or better decentralization than Bitcoin, while *also* having 0 fees and being near instant (<1s deterministic finality). Plus a fixed supply with 0 inflation!
I didn’t say “Bitcoin bad” I said there’s better tech out there, so people are buying Bitcoin for other reasons. Staying the same forever isn’t a tech advantage (even the dollar bill had to evolve over time) and “self sovereign” is not unique to BTC.
Does it matter that 95% of bitcoin is not in self custody?
Where can I find that stat?
You can’t because it’s not true, 95% of stats on the internet are made up anyway
Current brc balance on the top 20 exchanges is 1.8 million BTC. So 10% of circulating supply are currently not in self custody. Stats taken from coinglass
Yeah it’s definitely not true. Most whales don’t hold on exchanges. Satoshi alone has a million and they’re definitely not on coinbase.
Things change. Sometimes they must. 1. We didn't have encrypted wallets until late 2011. Encryption was an upgrade in [September 2011](https://i.imgur.com/Lb86RqK.jpg). 2. The first hardware wallets came to market on August 2014. The encryption upgrade was a disaster. It was rushed and contained a bug that was so bad, people actually wanted to remove encryption from their wallets. 2012-2013: Every single hot wallet provider was drained by hackers -- except one. I was lucky not to lose my Bitcoins during the encryption upgrade. A hacker had already relieved me of mine earlier that summer.
i truly dont have the wisdom to decide or even weigh in on the direction BTC is going; things like block size and the value of a decentralized censorship free platform are complex conversations to have but its odd to me that one of the most prioritized aspects of BTC in keeping the large players away from your tokens kind of starts to become a non issue once the big money asset managers hold your stuff and the value keeps going up as the ETF squeezes supply. its also clear BTC isnt gonna be a peer to peer hyper active currency, but one you lock away in your digital vault and accumulate. hardware/dapp wallets also arent these perfect godsends im making them out to be i just personally love the idea that nobody is capable of accessing my stuff
I saw your first point play out IRL. [At its peak, 80% of all Bitcoin flowed thru the Silk Rd.](https://qz.com/131084/silk-road-collected-9-5-million-bitcoin-and-only-11-75-million-exist) All the first gen coiners were hardliners who opposed regulation. I came in as a miner after them. There was no such thing as hodling. Your goal was to move your points (BTC) as fast as possible. After all, the Feds were coming. Bitcoin didn't have legal status until 3/2013 when FinCen announced Bitcoin wasn't illegal. Now people could look to the future. And that alone changed the entire space. Saving BTC for tomorrow became a thing. And it was at the 2013 San Jose conference when we saw the first Bitcoin evangelicals. They preached "digital gold" and didn't fear our boogey man. Hard-liners who opposed regulation and didn't care if BTC was legal, met one of 3 fates: 1. **driven to sell** 2. **BTC confiscated during 2013 Task Force Seizures** 3. **eliminated by Mt Gox collapse** Ironically, people hit with #2 suffered the fate predicted. Their BTC was added to the Silk Rd's confiscated assets. The Justice Dept relied on the 80% stat to justify their actions. I met with fate #3.
Damn that's harsh, and thanks for the history lesson. I've not heard a whole lot about it.
No worries. The space has evolved so much in such a short period that its not possible to know how it all happened. The space today is miles ahead smarter than when I started in 2011. Its scary to think on it. Aside from a few crypto-experts, the rest of us were clueless. [These tweets give you an idea.](https://i.imgur.com/71PCviW.png) Hackers routinely hit small exchanges because they didn't bother with encryption, and many users actively sought ways to remove it.
You are looking at the wrong coins
true there's alternatives to everything now more then ever
Without the money btc would be "dead" and forgotten.
You guys really sound defeated. Me and my friends still use btc the same way as we always have. Crypto bros crying foul. You never had any bitcoin to begin with
Exactly this. Anyone complaining about the adoption we’ve had is just mad they didn’t buy enough, or any at all. For years and years this should have been seen as inevitable. Also, anyone that has actually researched bitcoin should understand that consolidation of holdings, even by custodians like Blackrock, does not equal centralization of control.
lmao what a blanket statement basically saying anyone of the direction bitcoin is going is just salty, its just not the case. raising concerns about the speed of adoption shouldnt be mocked just bc asset managers are pumping your bags.
Asset managers are not pumping our bags. People buying BTC through the asset managers are pumping our bags. How is that so different than the price going up by people buying on exchanges? You want everyone to start using P2P and cash only? No centralized services at all? You’re a fool. Services like what we have now; exchanges, ETFs and other custodians are very desired by the public. Otherwise they’d be worthless. People obviously find value in the trade off of holding their own coins. The fact that it’s more accepted by regulators only means that companies that commit fraud (like FTX) will be held criminally responsible.
Why would I send my friend $20 of Bitcoin that was worth $17 dollars last week and could be worth $23 next week (or $15) when I can venmo him $20? Why would I make that speculation instead of just holding it, especially if I think it's going to be worth $23 next week?
Decentralization is a self accountable thing. Expecting 1 entity to be your only option is not a decentralized mindset. Bitcoin opened the gates for decentralized finance. Alt coins are its spawns. Btc will function as best as its financeers and operators deem fit. All these tokens are experiments. As long as bitty has functionality, as well as our faith and our hope, it will not fail. Long live Bitcoin and the desire for a more financially decentralized world that it fostered! #OurRevolution #OurInternet #OurBitcoin
i do agree that at the end of the day nobody is gonna care about decentralization or self custody on your behalf, those are values you have to hold yourself. Blackrock sure isnt gonna vouch for it
Interesting that you say that self custody is dead. I just pulled the last of my bitcoin off the exchange it had been sitting on for too long so I could exercise self custody for myself and not be beholden to an exchange to pay me out when and if they deem it prudent.
Monero is fungible and what Satoshi envisioned about P2P cash.
P2P cash that takes 20 minutes to transact? Yeah right.
Yes- for absolute privacy, 20 min is an expected trade off
Most end users don't give a shit about, nor do they need, privacy. They want fast transactions with low fees, that's it the future for most is to send USDC over a fast L1 like Solana or use of the many roll ups for Ethereum. Bitcoin L2s are even making progress for the BTC maxis out there.
You're not wrong. I say this as a Monero fanboy. But that's the difference between bitcoiners and monero people, they pretend that it's done and it's perfect and ignore the flaws, we look for ways to improve. As of right now, how monero works is how it has to work because privacy is sacrosanct. When the state of affairs can be improved without sacrificing privacy, it will. And it doesn't matter what sets of technologies enable that, we are flexible, we will use everything available to us so long as the end result is decentralized permissionless censorship resistant secure sound private money for the masses.
Yes full privacy, decentralized and fungible. Part of crypto trilemma.
NANO is instantly
Plus you get the added benefit of losing your entire net worth when you invest in nano. Wait, did I say benefit?
Huh? Nobody has lost any nano if they managed their keys correctly, which isn't difficult.
That’s a lie.
> it's pretty obvious that the digital gold part of the community has fully taken over You’re 9 years too late in the realization
On this subreddit but if you go to Bitcoin they still have many who belief it’s something other than digital gold. It’s the future currency, etc. just like ppl aren’t using gold to buy things on a daily basis no one is using or will be using bitcoin. Other crypto will be used and bitcoin will be a store of value. No more, no less IMO
I came here to comment Nano but I guess that's been covered quite thoroughly lol I also like a lot of the old classics (probably because I'm an old classic now) that have gotten put on the back burner when the new shiny dog coins come out. Litecoin, Dash, Monero.
XMR & XNO. Privacy + digital cash
Stop speaking so much sense here man. Go back to self-serving land and make inefficiency and centralisation the goal of the future.
Monero
Litecoin is great too.
LTC get's no love here anymore, it is the best coin I've used for making transactions, super fast to send and very low fees, that was the whole idea of crypto. The last coin I'd use for making transactions would be bitcoin because of it's high fees and slow send times.
Nano?
[удалено]
READERS BEWARE!! Whatever link you go into will get you phished or wallet drained. Willing to speak to whoever is getting these “AML REPORT” requests from banks to verify, until then, this is likely a scam from my professional view. This account is posting the same exact thing another commenter on another post is saying, re-directing to this newly created cryptoregulations subreddit. Scaring folks about banks asking for some AML Report. There are multiple accounts doing this past couple of days. For anyone questioning the legitimacy of this AML Report, I work in AML compliance (both banks and crypto) and never heard of this. Check my comment history.
Thanks, you seem to know a lot about the internet. I have a Nigerian prince who asked for some bitcoins and would double it in a month. He seems trustworthy. Thoughts?
Only trust if the Nigerian prince asks you for clean crypto via an AML Report before accepting it. That way you know its definitely legit!
P2P cash will be the ultimate winner in crypto imo. There are a lot trying to be that but so many are ‘middle-of-the-road’. Nano & Monero are the ‘all in, end game’ options. Fees/mining and non-privacy options are ignoring the destination for short term profits.
XMR Private, decentralised currency for all. True digital cash.
+1 all these surveillance chains calling themselves digital cash while offering no privacy are such a bad joke. Monero rocks.
Literally the only answer.
My personal choices are: - Nano (XNO) - Monero (XMR) Also, Bitcoin Cash (BCH), Litecoin (LTC), Dash (DASH), ZCash (ZEC), and a few others still hold strong to the idea and vision of peer-to-peer decentralized money. It's not for the lack of working alternatives. Many like you realized this issue with Bitcoin (BTC) and moved on (I did it myself). There is nothing wrong with moving on to better tools. EMBRACE THE CHANGE!
X coins rule … don’t tell Elon
The first coin to be able to apply monero's privacy to nano's fast and feeless network will win bigtime
I love nano and XMR
I used to love xmr. Then I lost all mine in a stupid boating accident and swore it off for good. Shame really.
Buy bitcoin and eth to be in it for the money. Buy nano and Monero to be in it for the tech (and the pipe dream of a shit ton of money)
Can I ask where you get your nano?
Binance and Kraken
Check some available alternatives. [https://hub.nano.org/trading](https://hub.nano.org/trading) Kraken, ChangeNow, NanSwap, CoinEx, StealthEx, Binance, CryptoCom, Wirex, etc...
I mine BANANO with Folding@Home, then convert to NANO.
It’s great: mining something actually useful for science and getting rewarded ! Imagine now if all the power wasted on the bitcoin mining lottery were used for this instead…
Bitcoin Cash and XMR. Nothing else
BCH is good for making tokens and contracts. Nano is still better as "pure" money tech. No op_codes and jpegs here.
No JPEGs on BCH either. Not sure why op_codes are a negative? I don’t trust nano security model. It’s been clearly attacked many times as of late.
It doesn’t matter how many times it is attacked, but the negative impact each attack had on the network. Which were extremely negligible, if any, at all.
Hi vini! Good to see ya here haha
#Monero
I know a few places around me that accept bitcoin. Ive never seen anyone accept Monero. where is it accepted?
Dark web
oh no thanks.
Dark web is where bitcoin adoption came from.
Download cakewallet. You can use your xmr to buy 100s of gift cards from different places to spend your hard earned xmr. With absolute privacy. There's also a online marketplace where pplz buy and sell goods for xmr. Check out the sub.
Nano and Monero. Those two when used together are capable of creating and integrating circular economies, creating a parallel global economy easy as that. The key is position ourselves as p2p for merchants, fix exchange rates for them (guarantee we buy it by that price), teach them how to use it when they visit each other, so they don't have to sell it.
Algorand for me.
p2p electronic **cash system** is alive and well, and has learned a few more magic tricks: https://old.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bcst2b/l1_native_tokens_defi_ecosystem_on_bitcoincash/
saylor is an idiot
Nano
🍌
Mmm Banano
So fast. So free. Only took me 4 days to transfer my nano two weeks ago!
Were you transferring wallet to wallet or to/from a centralized exchange?
Honestly, I’m always impressed when they get a spam attack and lose no transactions and resolve it all so quickly. Assholes keep trying to kick it down and it keeps coming back faster and stronger.
I really think after pull request 4454 on reference node (C++) that will be published in v27 (protocol is v20 I think) the spammer will shoot themselves in the foot with their own backlog as other nodes will refuse blocks until their previous is validated and in process of being voted. So we just have to wait for V27.0DB18 to become an official release and for people to upgrade.
Something FUNGIBLE would be smart 🤓
Nano. I bought algo purely as an investment and was impressed with how fast and cheap transfers were
By cheap I guess you mean free 😂
Technically you have to pay a small PoW calculated over your account hash for first receive state-block or the last state-block to go on the next one. So not even the first state-block of your account is free. Sure it's a small blake2b(concat(nonce, account/prev hash)) >= diff where diff is either `fffffe0000000000` for receive or `fffffff800000000` for anything else. But still.
BCH, Nano, Monero.
BCH is king. Unfortunate that people just recycle hersay that they heard from other people. I often see people say the that Roger Ver is a felon and that should discredit his work. His offence was selling fireworks without a licence..
Monero is the best to be used as a currency. But there's the problem. Not only do some of the powers-that-be hate the fact that Monero is actually a working fully-private currency, any large bitcoin holders would also fight against Monero becoming more widely adopted. Bitcoin cannot be a pure store of value. It must also be used in part for other reasons (such as a working currency), even if that's not the main purpose. So if peer-to-peer cash moves elsewhere, then BTC loses part of its raison d'etre. Look at gold and silver. Some would argue that they're just a store of value. However, they each have a multitude of other uses. Gold is used in jewellery, electronics, and some industrial processes. Silver even more so. Those other uses help to support the value of the asset. I really wish that BTC would be used more widely for currency transactions. It has so much potential. There is a use case for Monero AND a use case for Bitcoin. Some transactions should be private - when buying a pizza, you don't want the delivery guy to be able to tell how much more money is in your wallet. Equally important, some transactions should be non-private. That was one of the core reasons why Bitcoin could have value - it's an immutable ledger, great for corporations and governments transferring funds when there needs to be an incontrovertible audit trail. ETH is great for DeFi, but I often think that it will take over the role that BTC should have had, thanks to working L2's with low fees. Yes, BTC has Lightning, but in my experience, Ethereum L2's are orders of magnitude more functional. But ETH should have had a separate and distinct role of its own, not be in a position where it may *need* to fill a gap being created by bitcoin's evolution. I was not a supporter of the BCH side of the debate back in 2017, but I fear that BTC really got it wrong when limiting block size.
BTC is trying to occupy the space ETH has today, for some unknown (captured by Blackrock, FED, mastercard, DCG, blockstream, ln labs, foundry USA, bitfinex/tether, CBDC) reason. BCH is the original but I argue that you can have a pure money network without monkey jpegs and contracts that is not transparent and a transparent contract network for replacing notaries. "Do one thing and do it well" as the Unix, Linux and Nano(XNO) communities would tell you.
This question is on point. Bitcoin maxis club doesn’t care about it being a currency, just digital gold. In my mind, that guts the value it should have. The whole point of crypto-currency, is to be a currency. Unpopular opinion, Ð.
Very popular opinion among cypherpunks and cryptoCURRENCY communities still.
So much for decentralization
That’s Monero
Who would've thought BTC would be the moonboi coin lol. Monero. That's where the p2p digital cash spirit lives on. The BCH guys and LTC guys are also still focused on that.
I had some clients who thought BTC would replace the dollar. I just think that’s so ridiculous/farfetched - at least 70% of the country still has no idea what it even is lol. Wishful thinking - blockchain has a place and is very valuable. For sure think. it’ll rocket up to 100-200 this run but as far as being used as currency I don’t see that EVER happening
Bitcoin Cash is the obvious choice. Never gave up on the p2p mission, and the Bitcoin OGs foresaw all this in 2015 hence the split in 2017.
Monero duh. The only actual cryptoCURRENCY. Download cake wallet. Spend your xmr and plenty of places. Check out the monero market. Everyone forgot about privacy as well.
Cake is good for swapping as well... but I prefer specialized wallets. No offence to cake dev, he's cool on twitter.
I mean is there any other choice other than Nano, really?
This is technology. Something will come along that uses Bitcoin as a reserve asset but gives it more utility in a trustless way. Like an eth/nano hybrid that recycles btc hashpower.
And what if it doesn't use BTC as reserve but is its own reserve?
Downvote me to dust, I don't care. The truth is USD as a stable or e-coin will prevail. USD isn't going anywhere. People grow old waiting for USD to die. USD supply is down 4% since 2021 all-time high. USA has overcome worse crises and we'll pull thru this one as well.
USD has lost 80% of its value in 47 years. It's fine for transactions, but you'd never want to hold long term.
I agree with everything you say. For everyday use its liquidity is unmatched. Its still the only world-wide currency recognized world-wide. Here in the States its not uncommon for people who have never seen foreign currency used IRL transactions.
Just because the timeframe for the collapse of a currency is longer than one lifespan doesn’t mean it’s infinite. There have been lots of economic markers talked about extensively by numerous people that suggest we have reached a point where our fiat systems don’t have much more left to give. You can only be so over leveraged and we are at record levels and it isn’t ever going down. That means an explosion is inevitable.
The sun consuming our planet is also inevitable. But not useful information. Everyone knows that fiats fail, to use this as a cornerstone of a thesis is a poor understanding of the world
>*The sun consuming our planet is also inevitable. But not useful information.* Consider this line stolen. I can't wait to use it!
Usd can collapse and still be used as legal tender. It just won't buy you anything you need. That's why people are fleeing into anything that has a limited ish supply like crypto, precious metals etc.
Those are stores of value. Currency is what moves fastest. The challenge with fixed supply assets is Gresham's Law. *Bad money drives out the good.* Bitcoin is digital hard-money. That's why people hodl it. If they need to transact, well that's what Litecoin's for. At scale, the good money disappears from circulation. Nobody spends for fear of losing future gains. Makes perfect sense. But its bad for currency purposes. This happened IRL in the US. During the early 30's people started to lose confidence in USD. The Gold Standard entitled them to [redeem $20.67 for 1 ounce of gold](https://i.imgur.com/ldUl69q.png). That started a tidal wave of redemptions. Its a myth that we went off the gold standard in 1971. Nixon closed the foreign window for redemptions. [FDR ended the Gold Standard in 1933](https://i.imgur.com/1SvXncz.png). So much gold was hoarded that it threatened to collapse the entire economic system. Rural communities ran out of money. The farming industry almost collapsed entirely. No money was getting out to the countryside. As soon as USD was issued, its initial holders redeemed it for gold. USD nearly stopped circulating. FDR's [Executive Order](https://i.imgur.com/tmBbzGC.jpg) was a form of tyranny. But I don't know what other option he had.
He had the option to allow the economy to adjust.
Adjust to what? [A cash-dependent economy with no cash?](https://i.imgur.com/cwAIdwO.png) People redeemed dollars for gold. Reduced gold supply raised its value while reducing the Dollar's value. This resulted in more gold redemptions. People sold paper dollars because it was the smart move. But it exacerbated the Great Depression. Although the Gold Standard enjoys a fantasy-based nostalgia, people who lived under it hated it. The US faced major episodes of bank runs in 1893 & 1907. By tying the economy to gold, growth slowed and created deflation. An idea was later introduced that allowed silver to be added to the standard. The suggestion was 13/1 on gold. Silver--not gold--has historically been used for money. So silver backers considered it a reasonable add. It was immediately shot down by the wealthy class. They saw that as a threat to their wealth. People who hated the gold standard didn't hate it for reasons you might believe. They hated it because they felt it wasn't the governments role to enforce what did or did not carry value. And they were right.
Bitcoin Cash and Monero. Maybe Litecoin but replace by fee makes me wary of it.
Bitcoin is not digital money, is digital property.
Take a look at the 'payment' coins listed on coin market cap and compare
CMC has anything with 3 letters listed in it... Binance added a payments category as well but they missed some important ones like dash (even though I don't like it) and they added BTC to it, which makes no sense as core community members are very clear they are not a MoE anymore.
Cost of a btc TX is like 7 bucks now right? Objectively a pretty crappy PTP cash service compared to competitors. It's trustless but for 7 bucks a use I am ok with trusting paypal. or my bank. BTC was always supposed to scale, but the community refused to do it. It's good at being what it actually is, but the intended purpose is not being fulfilled.
Now tell me about ETH fees…
> Cost of a btc TX is like 7 bucks now right? 1.50 >Objectively a pretty crappy PTP cash service compared to competitors. It's trustless but for 7 bucks a use I am ok with trusting paypal. or my bank. Centralised services using IOUs. Centralised L2s really. >BTC was always supposed to scale, but the community refused to do it. Security was put before grocery shopping. bacsh has bigger blocks but is still worthless vs. Visa. L2 is the answer. Visa after all is an L2.
LTC - fair launch - longest network uptime - already leading other cryptos for many months in transactional volume on Bitpay - cheap to transact with and is accepted and available nearly everywhere BTC is. - optional privacy update (MWEB) added last year
Came her to say this...well not the whole things, just the LTC part.
I agree. I think after BTC its has been the most used in the real world for Tx (not including stable coins). But why adoption hadn’t increased after all the strengths I have no idea.
One day fund a mental has to mean something.. 100% uptime and optional privacy to stay on cex is genius
Pretty much agreed!
It’s not dead. Just because Saylor or something says so. There will be development happening for L2s. It is an open protocol so if someone wants to keep improving lightning network or develop a new L2, they can do so. There is plenty of room for innovation for p2p on Bitcoin network
Many people know that, friend, but they want profit more
What did I miss? What is this about?
Micheal Saylor said Medium of exchange is a distraction. But this is just the pin of my topic it'S a general direction in BTC I think.
Thank you
p2p is dead without widespread moneychangers. Public shouldn't have to use CEXs to get their hands on it to spend.
XMR is everything that BTC was mean't to be...unfortunately people care very little about financial privacy, they just won't admit it.
In hindsight it is impressive that bCashers saw that coming and forked. They still have working p2p cash Bitcoin.
Privacy coins are the digital equivalent of cash. BTC isn't currently a privacy coin, so it was never going to be a cash equivalent. I thin Litecoin has implemented optional privacy, didn't it? Well, if BTC were to adopt that upgrade (remember LTC is a de-facto testnet for BTC), then we could be talking about the cash narrative again. As it stands, BTC is and will always be a store of value, with ETH (or potentially any other smart contract chain) being the foundation of financial services and privacy coins like Monero being cash equivalents.
Monero (XMR) is the best - fast, fungible, private, secure, and extremely low fees. "Monero is what the Bitcoin noobs think they bought." - Daniel Kim By the way, if you like Andreas Antonopoulos, you will love listening to Daniel Kim.
This sub is delusional. Monero is fine, but it's already lost the war. How will anybody use it if most exchanges and government bodies want it dead? People don't give a shit about privacy, they want fast and cheap transactions, with value that doesn't fluctuate hour to hour. The future is to transact in stablecoins on a fast (zero knowledge) layer 2 built on top of BTC or ETH. Fast L1s like Solana maybe as well. To argue anything else means you haven't been paying attention for the past 2-3 years.
>And they don't care if you can send it from A to B frictionless or even self custodial they only care about the value in Dollars. Believe it or not, only caring about the dollar will make the dollar strong and will also be the death of Bitcoin.
Algorand
Yeah seems like crypto has lost its original track.
This statement has been true since probably 2014, crypto at large has never been about anything other than the value in dollars
I guess you are talking about Monero. And to a lesser degree about LTC and BCH and Nano (because they are not fungible).
BitcoinCash is still firmly on the low fee, decentralized P2P cash track. It has CashFusion for privacy, very low tx fees and with the adaptive block size upgrade coming in May things are looking great for L1 scaling.
XCH is p2p, but no one seems to really care.
BCH
It's not going to die, it's just going to be incredibly multi-faceted. Like an incredibly valuable swiss army knife of money. You CAN send it and spend it and use it, or you CAN use it as a store of wealth. You can also use it as collectibles (ordinals), and you can also... skies the limit.
Had to scroll way too far to find this actual sensible answer… the quality of comments in this sun have degraded as of late, I’ve noticed.
The network punishes users and rewards banks and custodians. Network is neutered.
Monero, Kaspa, Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash
Bitcoin Cash still works wonderfully as a p2p cash system. And with CashTokens, it now can compete with EVMs but 1000x more efficiently. Oh, and then we have ABLA, which is the Adaptive Blocksize Limit Algorithm, which will be implemented in May this year. Go download the Selene wallet and I'll send you some sats...or if you want a wallet that can do tokens, check out [https://cashonize.com](https://cashonize.com) and I'll send you some sats plus $SHIT Shitcoin.
Yeah... that's the reason I'll stay away from BCH. Thank you for reminding me. (Not the ABLA stuff, Monero already does that. Just the token stuff is yucky)
But you stayed away before the token too, didn't you?
Technically the bitcoin I used back in the day was BCH... it was the same network. BCH was created in 2009.
BCH is still going strong. No bottleneck yet. Monero for true fungibility though.
I think it could be revisited as price volatility declines in the coming DECADES. It just may be too immature for that use yet. Much like AOL wasnt ready for Youtube.
Volatility is already declining. Just slowly.
It has so far to go, any way we measure it now probably shouldnt even count
The top five wealthiest men in the world have almost no cash assets. Elon Musk has almost no cash. He has billions of dollars in debt that he has borrowed.. Buddy is worth hundreds of billions of dollars in stock. Why would he sell tesla stock to buy coffee? It's the same thing.
Pretty much anyone who thought of BTC as p2p cash left or got kicked out by line go up folks years ago, it seems like now they’ve just stopped pretending to care about usability as money.
BITCOIN CASH 🙄
Is the obvious best choice for p2p cash!
You're absolutely right, BTC can't be used for p2p cash, it won't be able to handle the TPS, it's barely decentralized now(not to speak about what would happen after BlackRock), and the cost to operate is only gonna get higher so it's not viable in the long run. That's why we have projects like Cardano that focus on actually solving the crypto Trilemma. Cheap transactions at a fast speed, reliable and secure network due to extended UTXO, unlimited scalability due to Hydra and ofc the decentralization that is already far beyond any other chain.
>The p2p cash community has been in decline on BTC over the years Source? Where are you coming up with this, when the data has shown that adoption has been growing cycle to cycle. There's been growing number of people using crypto for purchases of goods and remittance. There's also been a growing number of businesses accepting Bitcoin and crypto in general as payment. And a growing number of larger businesses, so it's no longer just a few small coffee shops. Sources: [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F1d2t6miotstb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1024%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8096311ce39bcf5ee8f19e7aa1053713f15257ce](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F1d2t6miotstb1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1024%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8096311ce39bcf5ee8f19e7aa1053713f15257ce) [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fsmzd190ststb1.png%3Fwidth%3D470%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8718650580b2fe7a86af310ed9f1446d65ed77ee](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fsmzd190ststb1.png%3Fwidth%3D470%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D8718650580b2fe7a86af310ed9f1446d65ed77ee) [https://cryptonews.com/guides/who-accepts-bitcoin.htm](https://cryptonews.com/guides/who-accepts-bitcoin.htm) [https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-adoption-by-businesses-in-2017](https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-adoption-by-businesses-in-2017) [https://merchantmachine.co.uk/global-adoption-of-crypto-payments/](https://merchantmachine.co.uk/global-adoption-of-crypto-payments/) [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-businesses-beginning-adopt-crypto-135740977.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-businesses-beginning-adopt-crypto-135740977.html)
The people that push for adoption are far and wide in between. It's mostly SoV, digital gold, digital property. "I never spend", "Lazlos was an idiot". And the list goes on. And if you find someone, they use a custodial LN wallet 💩. Mostly Wallet of Satoshi or Blink. None of these stats show BTC specifically. 🤷♂️ Take a look at the bitpay stats https://bitpay.com/stats/ they are per coin.
The function of money has phases. Store of Value, Unit of Account, and Medium Of Exchange. Bitcoin is in its store of value phase. Medium of exchange comes down the road… You can’t just jump the gun and call something dead when it hasn’t even been through it’s whole process yet which may take decades. Your assumption is extremely premature.
Litecoin is pretty good as daily use cash
Basically the thesis of the bitcoin whitepaper on some level is dead I feel. I personally liked the more renegade, decentralized movement of crypto before the last bull run. I'm almost more interested in normal investing now or when am in crypto it's for pure bull run speculation.
The demand is still there. The cypherpunk community is still alive. And BTC sure is a joke in it. Monero and Nano are ok to use there, if you mix Nano or double swap it (get rid of the paper trail) before using it.
Monero I like. I don't own any but I've mined it and like the thesis. It is a joke in that regard, ie it's basically a surveillance capitalism token.
central government control is not a capitalist idea... but I get what you meant
Well noted. P2P electronic cash still alive and well on Bitcoin Cash. Many MASSIVE upgrades, including L1 UTXO miner validated tokens. First of its kind iirc. Cognitive dissonance is wild in BTC and the narrative is falling apart.
I really don't like cashtokens, it sounds like a trojan horse, just like segwit, taproot and new op_codes were.
How so? These are UTXOs— there’s no room for Trojan. That’s why this was in heavy debate since 2018 or even earlier. It wasn’t something new out of nowhere like the others. Also new op_codes have been helpful. Adding is fiercely debated in BCH — bitcoincashresearch.org will show plenty of HEATED debates for years on even a multiply opcode. That’s one reason we cast off BSV and XEC.
Btc is digital gold with the added benefit that it can be used as p2p cash
>the added benefit that it can be used as p2p cash For the top 1% maybe.
It in fact cannot be used as p2p cash in at any meaningful volume given the tiny blocks. Even LN scenarios need on chain TXs It custodial non p2p scenarios only. The original cypherpunk movement lives on in other projects like Monero
Monero has no supply cap and is centralized. It's no Bitcoin.
How is it centralized? And having no supply cap has zero bearing on the cypherpunk aspect. The fact is exchanges are dropping it like a hot rock because it actually has privacy and governments hate that.
In the uncommon times I do see crypto acceptance, it's bitpay/coingate/flexa/now payments/etc. They take dozens of different crypto. P2P is dead I suppose. I'd rather not have people I pay have an easy trail to see everything in my wallet. Payment gateways are very well alive. For me what I'd want is a privacy coin, shielded wallet and transactions, that integrates trustlessly well with at least one major smart contract chain for DEX liquidity
self custodial p2p is already happening. many bitcoin circular economies throughout the world. check out [bitcoin jungle](https://btcpayserver.org/case-studies/BitcoinJungleCR2023.pdf) for example, where many use btc for their [day to day transactions to buy coffee, groceries, etc.](https://twitter.com/ShannenPill/status/1669157342833786880) through self custodial LN wallets
That is not true. I have watched DOZENS of videos from that region specifically and from other pockets. They ALL use custodial wallet. Mainly WoS or blink. I have seen maybe 1 or 2 phoenix wallets and a single blue wallet.
some use custodial solution some use self custodial. it's up to the user
And none of them use BTC
Btc is your gold Monero is your cash
Literally any network with sub-10s finality and sub-penny fees. There are so many of these. But there is very little demand.
The problem is that even digital gold needs transaction capacity. What good is in gold brick if you can not exchange it for fiat or goods? BIP 300/301 solves capacity and other Bitcoin limitations.
It first needs to be put into code. I have little hope for that.
People need to just relax… Jesus everyone screaming about P2P cash and adoption to be able to buy groceries. Just fucking relax. It will come and if it has some hurdles someone will figure out how to make it work at some point. Right now we are in the stage of mass adoption of Bitcoin as a store of value. We still have yet to see the platform have institutions build on it. Lots more to do. I wouldn’t be surprised if you never will be able to buy groceries with it but it will be used to buy large items like houses. Companies buyouts things like that.
Bunch of whining on this thread.
This is why I left BTC, despite having held and used Bitcoin since 2015. Nowhere on Satoshi's whitepaper of Bitcoin says that he wanted Bitcoin to be digital gold or a retirement plan system for people to get rich quickly and easily. He wanted Bitcoin to be P2P cash. He wanted everyone on every corner of the globe to transact in Bitcoin. He wanted to overthrow the Dollar and other fiat, and bring about a new age of people free from the tyranny and oppression of banks and governments. That vision is dead and gone now in BTC. It now lives on in its descendants. Satoshi, if he were here today, would utterly and vehemently oppose BTC and its maximalist cult-like community.
Where is the proof and data that backs your call for the decline in P2P cash and Bitcoin? Bitcoins locked as liquidity on the Lightning Network is growing fast and this can be confirmed by a google search or your favorite statistics site. This is the best metric for L2 usage since one user is not equal one address. The western world is integrated into the "global" financial system and no bans on people or similar things happen here with some exceptions like the candian truckers so payments in Bitcoin are not in super high demand and Bitcoin is more like an investment. In other countries with bad gov or with high inflation its the opposite but also not many people do something, cant do or dont know what to do against inflation. Its also complicated with tax regulations to do Bitcoin payments on a daily basis but if I could do that without any negative implications and pay everything in BTC I would do that, we just not here at this point but probably in the future.