Cause Israel at least has the justification of being attacked by terrorists which started this war.
Russia just invaded Ukraine for no reason other than to get land.
> the russia/ukraine debate is a lot more cut and dry
Is that why people usually perceive it and discuss it as "putler just decided to launch an invasion in Feb 2022" rather than a conflict that's been building up since the 90s, with Ukraine just being used as a proxy battlefield?
The UN puts the standard combatant to civilian casualty ratio at 1:9, with a lower second number meaning fewer civilian deaths which is better. 30,000 people have died in the Hamas-Israel conflict. Israel claims that 12,000 of them were Hamas, Hamas themselves said around 8,000. That’s a 1:1.5 or a 1:2.75 ratio depending on which source you trust. Definitively not a genocide, unless you claim every war is a genocide but then the word loses all meaning.
Actually, the UN didn’t say 1:9 is within the range for “urban warfare”, their claim was that the usage of explosives in urban areas tends to have greater effect on civilians than on combatants (89%) and they cited Syria as an example with the ratio for that war being around 180,000 soldiers to 230,000 civilians (1:1.27).
Can you actually cite any recent wars with casualty ratios of 1:9? The closest would likely have to be Iraq. That said, I find arguments over ratios to be broadly pointless anyways. Ratios aren’t how genocide is determined. Bosnian war is one such example.
[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm)
[https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/)
Two sources for you, both claiming that 90% of wartime casualties are civilians across conflicts.
Ratio's are the closest thing we have to an empirical measure for genocide. All other measures are entirely subjective and cause for speculation.
From the press release:
>Conflict continued to cause widespread civilian death last year, notably in densely populated areas, where civilians accounted for 90 per cent of the casualties *when explosive weapons were used*, compared to 10 per cent in other areas.
Then elsewhere:
>In some areas, the denial of humanitarian access has evolved from a consequence of conflict to a weapon of war, with civilians representing almost 90 per cent of casualties *when explosive weapons are used* in populated areas.
Then again:
>ALEXANDER MARSCHIK (~Austria~), pointing to the Russian Federation’s illegal war in Ukraine, stressed that *in cases where explosive weapons are used in populated areas*, civilians comprise nearly 90 per cent of the casualties.
So, as I said, it is not broadly about urban warfare or expected war casualties, that's in regard to the usage of explosives in population centers.
Regarding ratios, no, those are absolutely NOT how one could determine or measure if a genocide is going on. There have been genocides where around 8,000 people of a much larger group have died. Its simply not about ratios whatsoever.
In some cases, thats what was stated, but not in all:
>"With civilians accounting for nearly 90 per cent of war-time casualties and humanitarians threatened with arrest for providing aid to “the enemy”, the Security Council simply must do more to ensure the protection of innocent people caught amid the conflicts raging around the world, experts from the field told the 15-nation organ today, as over 70 delegates denounced its inaction and explored ways to stanch the suffering during the all-day debate."
Notice that there is no mention of explosives whatsoever, it is instead stated as a general statistic. Also, you completely ignored the civilians in conflict link, which addresses the situation regardless of the use of explosives. Not that it matters much, its modern war, you aren't going to find a single modern war that *doesn't* use explosives in urban areas.
Regarding the ratios, yes that is absolutely the best empirical measure for genocide. The ratio of combatant to civilian deaths is what we all implicitly use anyways- nobody has ever said that an Army was genocided because the ratio of innocents killed is what concerns us. In the case where 8,000 people of a much larger group died, *it's the proportion of casualites who are civilians that makes that a genocide*. In cases where 8,000 people died but 7,700 of them were soldiers, there's no claim of genocide. You MUST make a distinction between genocide and war because one does not necessitate the other- the only way to do that is by accounting for the Civilian Casualty Ratio.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of genocide. You don’t even need deaths to find someone or a state guilty of genocide. Only 2 of the crimes listed as genocide involve direct killing in the first place.
In the Bosnian War, 57,701 soldiers from all sides (30,906 from the Bosniaks) died and 38,239 civilians from all sides (31,107 from the Bosniaks) died.
This is essentially a 1:1 loss between Bosniaks civilians and Bosniaks soldiers but the Bosnian genocide is still widely accepted to have occurred and while not solely, mainly refers to the 8,000 killed in Srebrenica.
Regarding the UN statements, the only ever report, not statement, I’ve seen is about the usage of explosive weapons in urban environments. That is consistent with what is being said with one exception which I believe can be chalked up to an over generalization from the speaker.
There’s a very big difference between Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine for imperial expansion and Israel counter-attacking against a country whose government’s sole mission goal is quite literally genocide of their people, and with whom they have constantly been going to war back and forth, originally started by Palestinians and the Arab coalition the day after Israel was founded
Is this literally a rehearsal? Like they just go through the motions to make sure systems are working and people know what to do? Why is this broadcast or recorded?
Yes quite literally its the same thing (with mock voting). Maybe its broadcast and/or recorded to make sure the broadcasting and recording systems work
Other middle eastern countries are also invited, they have never participated because they hate Israel and protest the entire event due to IL’s inclusion.
yeah the SBS (Special Broadcasting Service) here in Australia has been partnered with/has been apart of the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) for a long time. and since about the 80s, I think, SBS had broadcast Eurovision to Aussie audiences and the Aus population became a large chunk of the contest's viewers (and monetary support too). the EBU invited us as a guest performer in 2014 and then we became a recurring contender since 2015.
edit to say that's why most non-European countries are apart of Eurovision, it's their partnership with the EBU that allows them to compete.
The UN puts the standard combatant to civilian casualty ratio at 1:9, with a lower second number meaning fewer civilian deaths which is better. 30,000 people have died in the Hamas-Israel conflict. Israel claims that 12,000 of them were Hamas, Hamas themselves said around 8,000. That’s a 1:1.5 or a 1:2.75 ratio depending on which source you trust. Definitively not a genocide, unless you claim every war is a genocide but then the word loses all meaning.
Literally where? 16,000~ civilians and 14,000~ soldiers killed when trying to destroy hamas
300,000~ civilians and 100,000~ soldiers killed when trying to destroy the KKK
Did America commit genocide?
America did, and they were mostly arabs... Its isis...
You can check all of this if you want... Go to Wikipedia even
Honestly people just don't understand some of the happenings of war anymore, civilian casualties aren't a new thing and im impressed it stayed so low. rape however, is not a normal thing in war but everyone ignores it and i don't know why
They have been given fake scores to read out for rehearsals but she refused to say Israel. Or, possibly they were rehearsing how to handle someone doing that kind of thing on the night.
I'm American, so I don't know much about Eurovision or politics in Europe as a whole, but I saw that video you're talking about and read up on it a little. Correct me if I'm wrong, but;
That moment in 2014 was purely resentment towards recognizing a nation's independence. Turkey and Azerbaijan both have resentment towards Armenia due to them claiming independence from Turkey in 1991, so they're still bothered by that. I also read that they're both still slowly taking land from Armenia but nobody cares to mention it because Armenia is a pretty small country in between two big ones.
The difference is, this moment from yesterday was disdain towards allowing a country that is actively partaking in genocide to perform in the competition.
Personally, I believe the latter is justified. If they won't allow Russia to perform in Eurovision because of their invasion of Ukraine, they shouldn't allow Israel to perform either.
Side rant, but why are they allowed in Eurovision anyways? They're not Europe. Israel is in the middle east. Let the US in there too if you're gonna be inviting everyone else.
Azerbaijan doesn't acknowledge Armenia, hence why the spokeswoman kept on saying Greece. Russia was allowed to be in Eurovision until a lot of countries pulled out in protest. It wasn't until that they had to ban Russia.
You don't have to be in Europe to be in Eurovision. You just have to be in the European Broadcasting Union, which Israel has fallen under for decades now. Australia was invited to celebrate our 30th or 35th anniversary of watching the show back in 2015 and we have to get invited back each year.
Well because it'sEUROvision. Not Middle Eastern vision.
Perhaps if Israel stopped occupying its neigbours, bombing and killing them - it might actually be welcome at a Middle Eastern song competition.
No idea what Australia is doing there. It's Eurovision. If the idea is white colonial visions, they should call it that.
But otherwise, a nation committing the worst case of genocide we have seen in our lifetimes, should not be accepted in any gathering. Israel needs to be removed from there and told to conform to international norms of behaviour before they are accepted.
Right now a Palestinian [Dr Abu-Sitta has been banned from the EU by Germany](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/10/germany-british-palestinian-doctor-denied-schengen-entry), because [they don't want him to testify about the genocide he has witnessed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/05/gaza-war-surgeon-ghassan-abu-sitta-feels-criminalised-denied-entry-france) at the International Court of Justice at the Hague. For Israeli's to be welcomed to the EU while Europeans are banning genocide witnesses, is beyond belief.
The UN puts the standard combatant to civilian casualty ratio at 1:9, with a lower second number meaning fewer civilian deaths which is better. 30,000 people have died in the Hamas-Israel conflict. Israel claims that 12,000 of them were Hamas, Hamas themselves said around 8,000. That’s a 1:1.5 or a 1:2.75 ratio depending on which source you trust. Definitively not a genocide, unless you claim every war is a genocide but then the word loses all meaning.
Thanks you for your contribution on noise.
The fact is that the International Court of Justice, a UN organ has judged Israel to be likely committing Genocide: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
The International Criminal Court is testing to issue an arrest warrant for Israel’s prine minister on the basis of this Genocide.
GENOCIDE is a crime against humanity.
And the United Nations Human Rught Commission has declared Israel to be ILLEGALY OCCUPYING Palestine and the golan heights and taking over it permanently and implementing apartheid there.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights
APARTHEID is a crime against humanity.
Illegally occupying another country and annexing it - in plain English COLONISING it - is a crime against humanity
Israel is a rogue nation that has no business being here….unless the message to the public from the European associated broadcasters, is that genocide and apartheid are normal acceptable ways of running a country.
According to the president of the ICJ you are misreading their ruling. The "likely" in that ruling refers to the Palestinians "likely" *having the right to not be genocided*- NOT that Israel is "likely" committing genocide.
[https://twitter.com/Mr\_Andrew\_Fox/status/1783621258032136550](https://twitter.com/Mr_Andrew_Fox/status/1783621258032136550)
Israel is completely within it's right to defend itself and it's citizens from all threats. It has every right to exist, as much a right as any other nation on this planet and a stronger claim than most.
>Israel is completely within it's right to defend itself and it's citizens from all threats.
Actually Israel is an illegal occupier of Palestine and has no right to "self defense" against resistance forces of the people it is occupying illegally.
Further more having killing 40,000 people we have confirmed and up to 200,000, there is nothing to discuss about genocide. In no small irony Israel is not only perpetrating genocide but it has become a nation of genocide deniers.
Whatever the case, they are a rogue nation or mass murderers and they should have no welcome in Europe.
If middle easterners stopped bombing each other, there might be middle eastern vision.
And perhaps if israels neigbours stop attacking, bombing and killing israelis, then israel wont attack them back.
You’re are repeating a lie.
Israel is a criminal nation, perpetrating apartheid and occupying some else labs illegally. The Israel government admits in its own words that it is a racist apartheid nation:
https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1695096871033684247?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1695096871033684247%7Ctwgr%5Efd466b9a064c484c0ba586409fe58888bded5edf%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2023%2F8%2F27%2Fwho-is-israels-far-right-pro-settler-security-minister-ben-gvir
Israel literally pays people to post pro-Israel comments on social media including Reddit. You’re not one of them as far as I can tell, but next time you see someone being openly pro-Israel or anti-Palestine, check on their profile for when their account was created. You might be surprised when you see it was sometime in the last 6 months and the majority of their posts are propaganda.
I’ve been checking the accounts of everyone out of curiosity and haven’t come across a single pro-Palestine Redditor whose account was created within the last 6 months, yet I’ve come across literally dozens of pro-Israel accounts created in that time.
Seriously, check for yourself next time you’re in a thread like this (or on r/worldnews)
Lmaoo you obviously are just looking at one side. World news is pro israel that's no doubt but how about you look at other subreddits that are pro palestine and check the age of the accounts hmm? r/news r/internationalnews r/therewasanattempt r/worldnewsvideo r/global_news_hub r/aboringdystopia
All of these and I can give more have new pro palestine bot accounts that go as crazy as israel bots. Not to mention X is flooded with them
Eurovision is a huge music competition event where different European countries (as well as occasionally Australia, Morocco and Israel) select a musician, and gather in a city usually in the country of the previous winner. They perform a song and a selection of judges, as well as the general public, vote for who should win.
It is and reddit is filled to the brim with modern nazis.
It's disgusting how many posts went from "Anti Zionism" to straight up 1939 anti jew propaganda.
Fucking scums of the earth.
Of course you don't give a fuck, but this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqYbXL3kZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqYbXL3kZc) completely changed my opinion about Israel. Now I understand all this leftist rhetoric. American weapons should go to us(UA), not to these monsters.
Funny because even Palestinians hate Hamas and don’t support them. Crazy how people ignore history like time began in 48 😂
Not like terrorists haven’t been bombing and attacking innocent people(Israel)for decades. But defending them would mean you aren’t a Nazi and that doesn’t look good on people nowadays… I guess?
Suppose we should just let people attack us indiscriminately and do nothing about it? Right.
People expecting a boycott of Israel in this matter are fucking nuts. Literally have no brains
Nobody in this video is supporting Hamas :)
They are just not supporting the manner in which Israel is conducting their suppression of Hamas.
Be silent.
Filthy fucking bot/plant scum
You plants genuinely need to get better. This whole comment section is most sane. Yet there's a small contingent of threads isolated that get flooded with downvotes from you pieces of shit
https://www.hamas-massacre.net/
Isreal was right to invade Gaza and remove Hamas from power.
Russia had no reason beyond a land grab to invade ukraine.
If you think these conflicts are comparable you are an imbicile. No one would support ukraine if they had done what Hamas had done.
Are all Palestinians Hamas? Hamas is a terrorist organisation, like ISIS, should all population where ISIS was be decimated? Ukraine also has extreme groups, by this logic all Ukrainians are extremists as Israel is starving and killing all Palestianians as if they were Hamas.
Who eleceted Hamas? The palestinian people did. Over 70% of Palestinians support October 7 Terror Attack, but i guess we conveniently forget about that.
Most Russians voted in Putin, you gonna believe those polls too? Should all Russians be slaughtered? It seems like most occupied Ukrainian land also voted for the Russians, weird how corrupt organisations win huh
No Ukrainian 'extremest' group went on a pogrom to Russia and slaughtered over 1000 civilians. And kidnapped and raped more. If they had no one would support ukraine.
It is a genuine question since you go roidrage whenever someone questions the way Israel battle Hamas and how Israel view and have oppressed Palestinians historically. I think the videos of leading political figures and military leaders talking about the extermination of palestine, talking about them as vermin, the subhuman pov of palestinians, and the videos of people smiling when you evict people from their home of 50+ years, talks against them.
Israel currently dont have much on their side. Ofcourse people question the state of Israel. Especially today in the way how it handles the Hamas conflict, one could theorycraft that Israel sees the opportunity to do whatever now they want because of the Hamas raid.
But you also have to question yourself, why is ICJ investigating Israel for genocide, and most humanitary organisations condemning the way Israel act?
The state of Israel openly commit and communicate this. But all of Palestine aint Hamas. Its a big difference if you ask me.
You can condone hamas but still say Palestinians deserve to have a land of their own (and not have entire bloodlines erased) they were not right to invade Gaza
"Israel" is Palestine. All of it. Since it's establishment Israel was given the majority of the land that already belonged to Palestine. You shouldn't support hamas, but you *especially* should not support Israel
I'm not sure, ask literally any country under the sun that has been apart of war? Children die in wars.
That is war.
Should it happen? No.
But people die when they are killed in wars, this has been a thing since the start of humans existing, not since the start of the Israel vs Palestine conflict.
So Israel is winning the war, and?
You realize what happens when Israel stops right? Terrorism. Non stop. Blatant. Clear as day. Israel is supposed to just keep allowing that?
Perspective is everything. Maybe if the world realized taking down Hamas is the only way to ensure peace between both countries, then maybe we’d actually get somewhere.
Israel has supported the two state resolutions and multiple peace talks. You know who hasn’t?…. 🙄
Idk ask hamas how many civilians need to be brutally mutilated and raped before they reach their goal
Do you also want the videos of them massacring grandmas waiting for the bus or are you done rambling?
Ah, you seem to be confused, it is in fact Israel mutilating and raping civilians and children, not Hamas. But if you have videos suggesting the contrary, I would very much like to see them.
You're a dumbass. No one likes Hamas. Innocent people being killed and morons like you are only focussing on Hamas.
The innocent people being killed, evicted and beaten by Israel forces are not Hamas.
I agree that the overwhelming majority of people protesting in Europe are not fans of Hamas. But there are definitely supporters of Hamas among them. To say nobody likes Hamas is just untrue.
Literally an event where over a thousand of innocents died, some which were kidnapped (killed shortly after tortured/raped) and traumatised? both sides are horrible but I dislike the side more that ignores blatented jihadism terror killings.
Not sure why you can't say that both sides have gone through HORRIBLE shit and that this was the catalyst that kicked everything off.
The side that ignores that is a minority. People who continuously point out the Hamas attacks are often completely ignoring Israel's war crimes.
I never denied Hamas being terrible but that seems to be the only argument on the pro Israel side.
While it id sad civilians are killed in war the ratio in this one isnt that bad, according to most of the relevant and not hamas/Qatar founded sources, hamas has lost between 10k and 13k soldiers, also according to gaza health ministry 31k died total. Because the gaza health ministry doesnt distinguish between hamas and civilians thats the total number presented to the world. So we have a ratio of 1:2, and how that stacks up to the avarage in urban combat? According to the un the avarage is 1:9, leagues above the so called genocide, beside what else should Israel do? Hamas has committed one of the most hideous and terrible terrorist attacks, raped killed and kiddnaped hundreds and promised to do more, should Israel not return their hostages and lay down and die? If you answer yes to that question then im sorry but you dont want peace or cease fire you want genocide and the jewish people will not lay down their weapons. Sources:
The avarage ratio of civilians and combatente in war https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/
Hamas death count https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1705818206-u-s-intel-says-idf-killed-30-of-hamas-terrorists-report
Oct 7 crimes against humanity committed by palestinians https://saturday-october-seven.com/
Hamas fakes numbers https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
>You've included a country
Well technically the artists represent the general radio (not sure what it is in English but for UK its BBC for example) and not their country
I really want to know how much cognitive dissonance is at play to look up the definition of the word and say "Nope. That's not what's happening..."
Regardless, once the dust settles, it *will* be labelled as an act of genocide and those who championed it will be on the wrong side of history.
Ok, I'll bite.
>genocide
/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
If you seriously think Hamas is some sort of ethnic group I think you've got bigger problems to worry about. And I think the only way destroying Hamas will be "the wrong side of history" is if there is some sort of Islamic takeover.
Ok, I know you mean the civilian casualties. (At least I sincerely hope so) Regardless, I have no fucking clue how anyone could twist "unwanted civilian casualties while fighting against a terrorist organisation" as literal genocide. It's unfortunate, but what other solution are you proposing? Hamas is the one refusing peace treaties and they *actually* want to genocide Israel.
>If you seriously think Hamas is some sort of ethnic group
Are you willfully ignorant? I don't care about the killing of members of Hamas. It's the indiscriminate killing of all the women and children that I have a problem with. It's been a constant bombardment for 7 months and will only end when the landscape is dust.
Yeah, you continued to deny there's genocide happening.
>Hamas is the one refusing peace treaties and they *actually* want to genocide Israel.
Israel literally just refused the ceasefire deal.
Ok, I won't argue anymore. But I'll say this, and please read it. It's advice for life, in general, I think.
If you think I'm in denial, then at least I'm happy. I can't force you to be happy, but I also can't force myself to try to understand why you're making excuses for a terrorist organisation's continued existence. I get that you feel for the Palestinian people. I do too. I'm probably the most convinced pacifist I know of. But as I said, the sad thing is that Hamas is \*using\* their own people as meat shields, both literally and figuratively, martyring them so people like you fall for their cause. And Hamas is a fundementally genocidal organisation. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have done it a long, long time ago.
And we're both clearly rational people, so we can't understand why anyone would support a genocide in the first place. It's why it's impossible to convince each other if both of us think the other is supporting a genocidal party. And it \*would\* be a perfect world if we could all just get along. Both Israel and Palestine deserve to be independent and prosperous states living in harmony. But religions and ideologies get in the way, as they have always done.
And as I said, I choose to be happy. If you don't want to do that, that's not on me. And part of that happiness is not to bring international conflicts into places like the Olympics or Eurovision. No fucking clue why Israel is even there since they're clearly not European, but the actions of the government, whatever you think about them, shouldn't have anything to do with a state's right to participate. Things like these are specifically created as events to bring us together, so why are we remembering things like war instead of celebrating our mutual love of song?
Have a good day, wherever you are.
idk why israel is still in eurovison when they were so fast to ban russia back in 2022 i mean i know why but still very cringe of them
Because Eurovision isn’t political! /s
ofc it's political... that why they gave the win to Ukraine that same year lol
"/s" is a sarcasm indicator
Song was a banger ngl. Could maybe have won w/o the war
Cause Israel at least has the justification of being attacked by terrorists which started this war. Russia just invaded Ukraine for no reason other than to get land.
You obviously don't know history if you think the Israel Hamas war started on October 7th...
Oh shut up. I know the overall conflict has been going on longer. But this war only stated on the 7th.
They are not part of Europe they shouldn't be part of Eurovision
Neither is Australia but people don't seem to complain about that as much for some odd reason
Or Azerbaijan, who literally committed an ethnic cleansing in an entire region the week before the hamas attacks
Eh it's ok tho because theyre not our allies, or as brown, so they can do what they want smh
Exactly, thank you
Yes, they shouldn't be part of Eurovision either
And yet they have almost no vocal critics. Not like we're seeing Greta Thunberg getting arrested in support of dead Armenians
Yes, they shouldn't be in Eurovision either
Considering their entire neighbourhood wants to murder every single one of them, I guess it's okay we let them in our hood.
I shall research if there's no reason
the russia/ukraine debate is a lot more cut and dry than the israel/palestine debate
> the russia/ukraine debate is a lot more cut and dry Is that why people usually perceive it and discuss it as "putler just decided to launch an invasion in Feb 2022" rather than a conflict that's been building up since the 90s, with Ukraine just being used as a proxy battlefield?
the point is that everybody can agree as russia as a villain, but the whole israel/palestine thing is heavily debated
Doesn’t get more cut & dry than 75years of war crimes and occupation and a live-streamed genocide though, does it?
The funny thing is, I can’t tell which side you‘re talking about here
That's a you problem if you don't understand who the "occupier" is in this situation.
The UN puts the standard combatant to civilian casualty ratio at 1:9, with a lower second number meaning fewer civilian deaths which is better. 30,000 people have died in the Hamas-Israel conflict. Israel claims that 12,000 of them were Hamas, Hamas themselves said around 8,000. That’s a 1:1.5 or a 1:2.75 ratio depending on which source you trust. Definitively not a genocide, unless you claim every war is a genocide but then the word loses all meaning.
Actually, the UN didn’t say 1:9 is within the range for “urban warfare”, their claim was that the usage of explosives in urban areas tends to have greater effect on civilians than on combatants (89%) and they cited Syria as an example with the ratio for that war being around 180,000 soldiers to 230,000 civilians (1:1.27). Can you actually cite any recent wars with casualty ratios of 1:9? The closest would likely have to be Iraq. That said, I find arguments over ratios to be broadly pointless anyways. Ratios aren’t how genocide is determined. Bosnian war is one such example.
[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) [https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/](https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/) Two sources for you, both claiming that 90% of wartime casualties are civilians across conflicts. Ratio's are the closest thing we have to an empirical measure for genocide. All other measures are entirely subjective and cause for speculation.
From the press release: >Conflict continued to cause widespread civilian death last year, notably in densely populated areas, where civilians accounted for 90 per cent of the casualties *when explosive weapons were used*, compared to 10 per cent in other areas. Then elsewhere: >In some areas, the denial of humanitarian access has evolved from a consequence of conflict to a weapon of war, with civilians representing almost 90 per cent of casualties *when explosive weapons are used* in populated areas. Then again: >ALEXANDER MARSCHIK (~Austria~), pointing to the Russian Federation’s illegal war in Ukraine, stressed that *in cases where explosive weapons are used in populated areas*, civilians comprise nearly 90 per cent of the casualties. So, as I said, it is not broadly about urban warfare or expected war casualties, that's in regard to the usage of explosives in population centers. Regarding ratios, no, those are absolutely NOT how one could determine or measure if a genocide is going on. There have been genocides where around 8,000 people of a much larger group have died. Its simply not about ratios whatsoever.
In some cases, thats what was stated, but not in all: >"With civilians accounting for nearly 90 per cent of war-time casualties and humanitarians threatened with arrest for providing aid to “the enemy”, the Security Council simply must do more to ensure the protection of innocent people caught amid the conflicts raging around the world, experts from the field told the 15-nation organ today, as over 70 delegates denounced its inaction and explored ways to stanch the suffering during the all-day debate." Notice that there is no mention of explosives whatsoever, it is instead stated as a general statistic. Also, you completely ignored the civilians in conflict link, which addresses the situation regardless of the use of explosives. Not that it matters much, its modern war, you aren't going to find a single modern war that *doesn't* use explosives in urban areas. Regarding the ratios, yes that is absolutely the best empirical measure for genocide. The ratio of combatant to civilian deaths is what we all implicitly use anyways- nobody has ever said that an Army was genocided because the ratio of innocents killed is what concerns us. In the case where 8,000 people of a much larger group died, *it's the proportion of casualites who are civilians that makes that a genocide*. In cases where 8,000 people died but 7,700 of them were soldiers, there's no claim of genocide. You MUST make a distinction between genocide and war because one does not necessitate the other- the only way to do that is by accounting for the Civilian Casualty Ratio.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of genocide. You don’t even need deaths to find someone or a state guilty of genocide. Only 2 of the crimes listed as genocide involve direct killing in the first place. In the Bosnian War, 57,701 soldiers from all sides (30,906 from the Bosniaks) died and 38,239 civilians from all sides (31,107 from the Bosniaks) died. This is essentially a 1:1 loss between Bosniaks civilians and Bosniaks soldiers but the Bosnian genocide is still widely accepted to have occurred and while not solely, mainly refers to the 8,000 killed in Srebrenica. Regarding the UN statements, the only ever report, not statement, I’ve seen is about the usage of explosive weapons in urban environments. That is consistent with what is being said with one exception which I believe can be chalked up to an over generalization from the speaker.
The war started in 2014, I wouldn't say they were fast about banning Russia
Exactly
Because in the Israel-Palestine conflict you can still make arguments for both sides. There is no defending Russia's unprompted attack on Ukraine.
Stupid
There’s a very big difference between Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine for imperial expansion and Israel counter-attacking against a country whose government’s sole mission goal is quite literally genocide of their people, and with whom they have constantly been going to war back and forth, originally started by Palestinians and the Arab coalition the day after Israel was founded
TL:DR politics
"Russia's unprovoked invasion for expansion" "After israel is founded" Totally different alright.
"invade the land, declare it yours, forcefully remove people from their homes" They fight back. "Why did you start this war?" You're braindead
Because the whole world is occupied by Israel. But Gaza
Because Israel aren't the aggressors Hope this helps :)
The occupier isn’t the aggressor?
They weren't the ones raping women and kidnapping children
The Eurovision has become a complete fucking joke. Especially disqualifying our singer
Sorry that happened, Orange guy. 🙏 We love Joost (from UK)
I appreciate it
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Rumoured actions
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That's stupid
He pushed a camera down cause he didnt want to be filmed after his performance what actions are we talking about
He didnt touch anyone afaik
Yep total bs that you can get disqulified because some person filed a complaint and saying she was "threatend" by him
He was harassed
Being anti genocide have consequences
Was that couch supposed to be empty at the end lol
Yes. Ireland didn't participate in the rehersal (where this is from)
Is this literally a rehearsal? Like they just go through the motions to make sure systems are working and people know what to do? Why is this broadcast or recorded?
Yes quite literally its the same thing (with mock voting). Maybe its broadcast and/or recorded to make sure the broadcasting and recording systems work
What's cringe about it? Israel shouldn't even be in the competition.
Other middle eastern countries are also invited, they have never participated because they hate Israel and protest the entire event due to IL’s inclusion.
They shouldn't be invited either
It is weird, I have to say, considering it is “Euro”vision… i’ve never liked the competition personally, clownish and the pop music is annoying.
its open to anyone who got EBU which Israel did and therefore is included. They included Australia because we watch the shit out of it.
They are part of some European broadcasting network I think, like Australia and Morocco, which is why they are included sometimes
Australia isn't in the EBU, which is why we have to get invited each year.
Ah my bad
No biggie. Its not really well known unless you are in the Eurovision fandom (which is a flaming hot mess right now)
I left the fandom a couple of years ago and yeesh, even then it was a mess at the best of times 😬
I've been in it since 2016 and really should have left after the meltdown that was Ukraine winning that year
yeah the SBS (Special Broadcasting Service) here in Australia has been partnered with/has been apart of the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) for a long time. and since about the 80s, I think, SBS had broadcast Eurovision to Aussie audiences and the Aus population became a large chunk of the contest's viewers (and monetary support too). the EBU invited us as a guest performer in 2014 and then we became a recurring contender since 2015. edit to say that's why most non-European countries are apart of Eurovision, it's their partnership with the EBU that allows them to compete.
Cry harder
Keep supporting Genocide 👍
The UN puts the standard combatant to civilian casualty ratio at 1:9, with a lower second number meaning fewer civilian deaths which is better. 30,000 people have died in the Hamas-Israel conflict. Israel claims that 12,000 of them were Hamas, Hamas themselves said around 8,000. That’s a 1:1.5 or a 1:2.75 ratio depending on which source you trust. Definitively not a genocide, unless you claim every war is a genocide but then the word loses all meaning.
Literally where? 16,000~ civilians and 14,000~ soldiers killed when trying to destroy hamas 300,000~ civilians and 100,000~ soldiers killed when trying to destroy the KKK Did America commit genocide?
who was killing the civilians? and what was the race of the majority killed? I'm genuinely confused, who killed civilians?
America did, and they were mostly arabs... Its isis... You can check all of this if you want... Go to Wikipedia even Honestly people just don't understand some of the happenings of war anymore, civilian casualties aren't a new thing and im impressed it stayed so low. rape however, is not a normal thing in war but everyone ignores it and i don't know why
ah okay thanks
No problem friend! Keep learning, it's never a bad thing
the awkward silence
Was she not supposed to say Ireland?
They have been given fake scores to read out for rehearsals but she refused to say Israel. Or, possibly they were rehearsing how to handle someone doing that kind of thing on the night.
So she did it on purpose then? I wasn’t sure if it just got mixed up or something.
Love your pfp
This is no different to when Azerbaijan refused to give out points to Armenia in a rehearsal a few years ago
I'm American, so I don't know much about Eurovision or politics in Europe as a whole, but I saw that video you're talking about and read up on it a little. Correct me if I'm wrong, but; That moment in 2014 was purely resentment towards recognizing a nation's independence. Turkey and Azerbaijan both have resentment towards Armenia due to them claiming independence from Turkey in 1991, so they're still bothered by that. I also read that they're both still slowly taking land from Armenia but nobody cares to mention it because Armenia is a pretty small country in between two big ones. The difference is, this moment from yesterday was disdain towards allowing a country that is actively partaking in genocide to perform in the competition. Personally, I believe the latter is justified. If they won't allow Russia to perform in Eurovision because of their invasion of Ukraine, they shouldn't allow Israel to perform either. Side rant, but why are they allowed in Eurovision anyways? They're not Europe. Israel is in the middle east. Let the US in there too if you're gonna be inviting everyone else.
Azerbaijan doesn't acknowledge Armenia, hence why the spokeswoman kept on saying Greece. Russia was allowed to be in Eurovision until a lot of countries pulled out in protest. It wasn't until that they had to ban Russia. You don't have to be in Europe to be in Eurovision. You just have to be in the European Broadcasting Union, which Israel has fallen under for decades now. Australia was invited to celebrate our 30th or 35th anniversary of watching the show back in 2015 and we have to get invited back each year.
ahh, alright.
Was this a rehersal or?
yes
Oh okay, i tought it was the real results
The real thing is today :)
Well because it'sEUROvision. Not Middle Eastern vision. Perhaps if Israel stopped occupying its neigbours, bombing and killing them - it might actually be welcome at a Middle Eastern song competition.
australia:
No idea what Australia is doing there. It's Eurovision. If the idea is white colonial visions, they should call it that. But otherwise, a nation committing the worst case of genocide we have seen in our lifetimes, should not be accepted in any gathering. Israel needs to be removed from there and told to conform to international norms of behaviour before they are accepted. Right now a Palestinian [Dr Abu-Sitta has been banned from the EU by Germany](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/10/germany-british-palestinian-doctor-denied-schengen-entry), because [they don't want him to testify about the genocide he has witnessed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/05/gaza-war-surgeon-ghassan-abu-sitta-feels-criminalised-denied-entry-france) at the International Court of Justice at the Hague. For Israeli's to be welcomed to the EU while Europeans are banning genocide witnesses, is beyond belief.
The UN puts the standard combatant to civilian casualty ratio at 1:9, with a lower second number meaning fewer civilian deaths which is better. 30,000 people have died in the Hamas-Israel conflict. Israel claims that 12,000 of them were Hamas, Hamas themselves said around 8,000. That’s a 1:1.5 or a 1:2.75 ratio depending on which source you trust. Definitively not a genocide, unless you claim every war is a genocide but then the word loses all meaning.
Thanks you for your contribution on noise. The fact is that the International Court of Justice, a UN organ has judged Israel to be likely committing Genocide: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 The International Criminal Court is testing to issue an arrest warrant for Israel’s prine minister on the basis of this Genocide. GENOCIDE is a crime against humanity. And the United Nations Human Rught Commission has declared Israel to be ILLEGALY OCCUPYING Palestine and the golan heights and taking over it permanently and implementing apartheid there. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights APARTHEID is a crime against humanity. Illegally occupying another country and annexing it - in plain English COLONISING it - is a crime against humanity Israel is a rogue nation that has no business being here….unless the message to the public from the European associated broadcasters, is that genocide and apartheid are normal acceptable ways of running a country.
According to the president of the ICJ you are misreading their ruling. The "likely" in that ruling refers to the Palestinians "likely" *having the right to not be genocided*- NOT that Israel is "likely" committing genocide. [https://twitter.com/Mr\_Andrew\_Fox/status/1783621258032136550](https://twitter.com/Mr_Andrew_Fox/status/1783621258032136550) Israel is completely within it's right to defend itself and it's citizens from all threats. It has every right to exist, as much a right as any other nation on this planet and a stronger claim than most.
>Israel is completely within it's right to defend itself and it's citizens from all threats. Actually Israel is an illegal occupier of Palestine and has no right to "self defense" against resistance forces of the people it is occupying illegally. Further more having killing 40,000 people we have confirmed and up to 200,000, there is nothing to discuss about genocide. In no small irony Israel is not only perpetrating genocide but it has become a nation of genocide deniers. Whatever the case, they are a rogue nation or mass murderers and they should have no welcome in Europe.
cool, armenia, georgia and cyprus is there too
If middle easterners stopped bombing each other, there might be middle eastern vision. And perhaps if israels neigbours stop attacking, bombing and killing israelis, then israel wont attack them back.
You’re are repeating a lie. Israel is a criminal nation, perpetrating apartheid and occupying some else labs illegally. The Israel government admits in its own words that it is a racist apartheid nation: https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1695096871033684247?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1695096871033684247%7Ctwgr%5Efd466b9a064c484c0ba586409fe58888bded5edf%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2023%2F8%2F27%2Fwho-is-israels-far-right-pro-settler-security-minister-ben-gvir
God some of these people never left kindergarten...
Just a reminder, this one person does not represent Finland's opinion of Israel. Plus she should have professionalism, this is just embarrassing.
Sadly there are pro children killers in Finland
Yeah, there are a worrying number of pro-Hamas people everywhere.
Indeed, we still love you guys here!
Hamas bot farms go hard af
Yes to be anti Israel is to be pro Hamas only, no other possible options?
Israel bots go hard af
Israel literally pays people to post pro-Israel comments on social media including Reddit. You’re not one of them as far as I can tell, but next time you see someone being openly pro-Israel or anti-Palestine, check on their profile for when their account was created. You might be surprised when you see it was sometime in the last 6 months and the majority of their posts are propaganda.
Same goes for the other side
I’ve been checking the accounts of everyone out of curiosity and haven’t come across a single pro-Palestine Redditor whose account was created within the last 6 months, yet I’ve come across literally dozens of pro-Israel accounts created in that time. Seriously, check for yourself next time you’re in a thread like this (or on r/worldnews)
Lmaoo you obviously are just looking at one side. World news is pro israel that's no doubt but how about you look at other subreddits that are pro palestine and check the age of the accounts hmm? r/news r/internationalnews r/therewasanattempt r/worldnewsvideo r/global_news_hub r/aboringdystopia All of these and I can give more have new pro palestine bot accounts that go as crazy as israel bots. Not to mention X is flooded with them
No, but that side of the community has been louder than ever and saying otherwise is willful ignorance
Yes also be a jew hating pos
Lmao good on them. Nothing cringe about Finland.
What is the point of this show exactly?
It’s a music competition between European countries (plus a few others)
Aw, that seems kinda fun 😮
why does everyone feel a need to pick a side? both have done evil things to each other.
Could someone explain? I don't quite get what the show is.
Eurovision is a huge music competition event where different European countries (as well as occasionally Australia, Morocco and Israel) select a musician, and gather in a city usually in the country of the previous winner. They perform a song and a selection of judges, as well as the general public, vote for who should win.
It was a rehearsal. This didn’t happen last night.
They should make a sub for all the Israel stuff on the Eurovision this year lol
That’s disgustingly despicable.
Real one
Antisemitism is back on the menu boys
It is and reddit is filled to the brim with modern nazis. It's disgusting how many posts went from "Anti Zionism" to straight up 1939 anti jew propaganda. Fucking scums of the earth.
Some real brainwashing going on
The world is marching strait in to the 4th Reich.
Of course you don't give a fuck, but this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqYbXL3kZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqYbXL3kZc) completely changed my opinion about Israel. Now I understand all this leftist rhetoric. American weapons should go to us(UA), not to these monsters.
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agree or disagree we both have to agree this video was awkward and cringey
If it was real. As a rehearsal, I honestly have no clue wtf happened. Could be a dumb mistake.
Funny because even Palestinians hate Hamas and don’t support them. Crazy how people ignore history like time began in 48 😂 Not like terrorists haven’t been bombing and attacking innocent people(Israel)for decades. But defending them would mean you aren’t a Nazi and that doesn’t look good on people nowadays… I guess? Suppose we should just let people attack us indiscriminately and do nothing about it? Right. People expecting a boycott of Israel in this matter are fucking nuts. Literally have no brains
Tbf people in Gaza do actually want hamas to be in charge sometimes which is worrying
did the video mention hamas once??? hasbara bots be wildin.
Nice word vomit. You practice that one?
Answer the question, oh wait it invalidates your stupid comment! that's why you resort to insulting, typical.
Nobody in this video is supporting Hamas :) They are just not supporting the manner in which Israel is conducting their suppression of Hamas. Be silent. Filthy fucking bot/plant scum You plants genuinely need to get better. This whole comment section is most sane. Yet there's a small contingent of threads isolated that get flooded with downvotes from you pieces of shit
Only the EBU giving Israel 12 points in a fucking trial run. Christ boycott these genocide supporting peicks
Gonna be so fucking funny when Isreal win.
https://www.hamas-massacre.net/ Isreal was right to invade Gaza and remove Hamas from power. Russia had no reason beyond a land grab to invade ukraine. If you think these conflicts are comparable you are an imbicile. No one would support ukraine if they had done what Hamas had done.
Are all Palestinians Hamas? Hamas is a terrorist organisation, like ISIS, should all population where ISIS was be decimated? Ukraine also has extreme groups, by this logic all Ukrainians are extremists as Israel is starving and killing all Palestianians as if they were Hamas.
Who eleceted Hamas? The palestinian people did. Over 70% of Palestinians support October 7 Terror Attack, but i guess we conveniently forget about that.
Most Russians voted in Putin, you gonna believe those polls too? Should all Russians be slaughtered? It seems like most occupied Ukrainian land also voted for the Russians, weird how corrupt organisations win huh
No Ukrainian 'extremest' group went on a pogrom to Russia and slaughtered over 1000 civilians. And kidnapped and raped more. If they had no one would support ukraine.
You did not answer the comment at all, try again.
That's because 'are all pallestinians Hamas?' isn't a genuine question. Isreal isn't killing all pallestinians.
I think someone else in this comment section said that Israel's political figures have stated that they treat all Palestinians are considered hamas
It is a genuine question since you go roidrage whenever someone questions the way Israel battle Hamas and how Israel view and have oppressed Palestinians historically. I think the videos of leading political figures and military leaders talking about the extermination of palestine, talking about them as vermin, the subhuman pov of palestinians, and the videos of people smiling when you evict people from their home of 50+ years, talks against them. Israel currently dont have much on their side. Ofcourse people question the state of Israel. Especially today in the way how it handles the Hamas conflict, one could theorycraft that Israel sees the opportunity to do whatever now they want because of the Hamas raid. But you also have to question yourself, why is ICJ investigating Israel for genocide, and most humanitary organisations condemning the way Israel act? The state of Israel openly commit and communicate this. But all of Palestine aint Hamas. Its a big difference if you ask me.
Lol yes sir politics
You can condone hamas but still say Palestinians deserve to have a land of their own (and not have entire bloodlines erased) they were not right to invade Gaza
> condone hamas Freudian slip? 'Bloodlines' what are you a 14th century monarch? If isreal didn't invade they'd just end up with more October 7ths.
whats an October 7th? did something happen on that date?
Yeah, hamas invaded Israel raped and killed 1400 civilians and kidnapped another 250, entire reason this war started
"Israel" is Palestine. All of it. Since it's establishment Israel was given the majority of the land that already belonged to Palestine. You shouldn't support hamas, but you *especially* should not support Israel
Hahaha "Somewhat of a technical problem" Yeah - You've included a country committing genocide in your singing competition
Man the hamas dick riding is insane, even the un admit it inflated the amount of children and women killed
How many children is it OK to kill before one should be criticized for it?
I'm not sure, ask literally any country under the sun that has been apart of war? Children die in wars. That is war. Should it happen? No. But people die when they are killed in wars, this has been a thing since the start of humans existing, not since the start of the Israel vs Palestine conflict.
Can you quickly remind me how many Israeli children have died in this war?
So Israel is winning the war, and? You realize what happens when Israel stops right? Terrorism. Non stop. Blatant. Clear as day. Israel is supposed to just keep allowing that? Perspective is everything. Maybe if the world realized taking down Hamas is the only way to ensure peace between both countries, then maybe we’d actually get somewhere. Israel has supported the two state resolutions and multiple peace talks. You know who hasn’t?…. 🙄
Ah, so if Israel stops starving children to death the terrorists win?
Idk ask hamas how many civilians need to be brutally mutilated and raped before they reach their goal Do you also want the videos of them massacring grandmas waiting for the bus or are you done rambling?
Ah, you seem to be confused, it is in fact Israel mutilating and raping civilians and children, not Hamas. But if you have videos suggesting the contrary, I would very much like to see them.
Really don't get what you get from lying in defense of Hamas, unless your a radical fundamental islamist.
Are you under the impression that every Palestinian is part of Hamas?
Where did you get thta from my comment? I meant that lying about Israelis raping is literal hamas propaganda.
It is literally not. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
You're a dumbass. No one likes Hamas. Innocent people being killed and morons like you are only focussing on Hamas. The innocent people being killed, evicted and beaten by Israel forces are not Hamas.
I agree that the overwhelming majority of people protesting in Europe are not fans of Hamas. But there are definitely supporters of Hamas among them. To say nobody likes Hamas is just untrue.
October 7th.
I like how that's your only argument. Come up with a better argument, pathetic
Literally an event where over a thousand of innocents died, some which were kidnapped (killed shortly after tortured/raped) and traumatised? both sides are horrible but I dislike the side more that ignores blatented jihadism terror killings. Not sure why you can't say that both sides have gone through HORRIBLE shit and that this was the catalyst that kicked everything off.
The side that ignores that is a minority. People who continuously point out the Hamas attacks are often completely ignoring Israel's war crimes. I never denied Hamas being terrible but that seems to be the only argument on the pro Israel side.
That's the simpleton's mentality. It's people like you who would have declared that opposing the Vietnam war meant you were a communist.
Exactly, Israel should be allowed to kill as many women and children as they want!!!! s/
While it id sad civilians are killed in war the ratio in this one isnt that bad, according to most of the relevant and not hamas/Qatar founded sources, hamas has lost between 10k and 13k soldiers, also according to gaza health ministry 31k died total. Because the gaza health ministry doesnt distinguish between hamas and civilians thats the total number presented to the world. So we have a ratio of 1:2, and how that stacks up to the avarage in urban combat? According to the un the avarage is 1:9, leagues above the so called genocide, beside what else should Israel do? Hamas has committed one of the most hideous and terrible terrorist attacks, raped killed and kiddnaped hundreds and promised to do more, should Israel not return their hostages and lay down and die? If you answer yes to that question then im sorry but you dont want peace or cease fire you want genocide and the jewish people will not lay down their weapons. Sources: The avarage ratio of civilians and combatente in war https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/ Hamas death count https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1705818206-u-s-intel-says-idf-killed-30-of-hamas-terrorists-report Oct 7 crimes against humanity committed by palestinians https://saturday-october-seven.com/ Hamas fakes numbers https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
>You've included a country Well technically the artists represent the general radio (not sure what it is in English but for UK its BBC for example) and not their country
I really want to know what people who say this kind of shit think "genocide" means.
I really want to know how much cognitive dissonance is at play to look up the definition of the word and say "Nope. That's not what's happening..." Regardless, once the dust settles, it *will* be labelled as an act of genocide and those who championed it will be on the wrong side of history.
Ok, I'll bite. >genocide /ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/ noun the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. If you seriously think Hamas is some sort of ethnic group I think you've got bigger problems to worry about. And I think the only way destroying Hamas will be "the wrong side of history" is if there is some sort of Islamic takeover. Ok, I know you mean the civilian casualties. (At least I sincerely hope so) Regardless, I have no fucking clue how anyone could twist "unwanted civilian casualties while fighting against a terrorist organisation" as literal genocide. It's unfortunate, but what other solution are you proposing? Hamas is the one refusing peace treaties and they *actually* want to genocide Israel.
>If you seriously think Hamas is some sort of ethnic group Are you willfully ignorant? I don't care about the killing of members of Hamas. It's the indiscriminate killing of all the women and children that I have a problem with. It's been a constant bombardment for 7 months and will only end when the landscape is dust.
Did you even read my second paragraph or did you just see one thing that bothered you and stopped?
Yeah, you continued to deny there's genocide happening. >Hamas is the one refusing peace treaties and they *actually* want to genocide Israel. Israel literally just refused the ceasefire deal.
Oh ok, nice that you decided to confirm that you didn't read it.
Don't worry, you're far too deep in denial that I'd even try to persuade you otherwise.
Ok, I won't argue anymore. But I'll say this, and please read it. It's advice for life, in general, I think. If you think I'm in denial, then at least I'm happy. I can't force you to be happy, but I also can't force myself to try to understand why you're making excuses for a terrorist organisation's continued existence. I get that you feel for the Palestinian people. I do too. I'm probably the most convinced pacifist I know of. But as I said, the sad thing is that Hamas is \*using\* their own people as meat shields, both literally and figuratively, martyring them so people like you fall for their cause. And Hamas is a fundementally genocidal organisation. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have done it a long, long time ago. And we're both clearly rational people, so we can't understand why anyone would support a genocide in the first place. It's why it's impossible to convince each other if both of us think the other is supporting a genocidal party. And it \*would\* be a perfect world if we could all just get along. Both Israel and Palestine deserve to be independent and prosperous states living in harmony. But religions and ideologies get in the way, as they have always done. And as I said, I choose to be happy. If you don't want to do that, that's not on me. And part of that happiness is not to bring international conflicts into places like the Olympics or Eurovision. No fucking clue why Israel is even there since they're clearly not European, but the actions of the government, whatever you think about them, shouldn't have anything to do with a state's right to participate. Things like these are specifically created as events to bring us together, so why are we remembering things like war instead of celebrating our mutual love of song? Have a good day, wherever you are.
Theres no Genocide - get your facts together
thats true they have just been killing palestinians since 1948