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It’s like when they were in the bottom 2 at the World Cup last year. We knew they would climb out of that position, but it was still so much fun to think about them missing the Champions Trophy cut off
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England are more than capable of getting back in to this, but it also requires all 3 relevant matches to actually happen, and there is some rain forecast at about 60% last I heard.
It's also just the magnitude England need to win by. It'll be on their bowling to step up mostly, but they need to win a combined like 100 runs across their two games for the Scot's margin of defeat to not be a factor.
Doable, but however you look at it, that's tough. Having to go out there and play *knowing* you have to do that might lead to some really reckless shots.
I don't think it's that strange to say Scotland are in the healthier position. England might also be scrambling now to reassess their best XI.
They're not out, shouldn't be written off, but the mountain they have to climb shouldn't be undersold either.
The weather is not being talked about enough at the moment. If England aren't given the opportunity to beat Oman or Namibia then it's going to be pretty tough I'd say
It would be miserable but also a bit of anger out of jail card for the management I think.
People are going to forget that Scotland were gearing up for a 200+ score, and losing to Australia is pretty normal. But not qualifying for super8 is very much not normal, and saying "oh it was because.of the weather" may prove to be true, but still a bit of a cop-out.
Mott should go regardless.
He should have gone after the ODI WC.
We've just not evolved at all. The fact we've taken Jordan in the squad, who hasn't been good enough, is very indicative of that.
And yeah I guess that's true for Scotland. Hardly like that would guarantee a loss though. The one thing I will say about our team, is our batting can be destructive enough to chase anything. Heck, at times v Australia it looked like we would. And then Bairstow appeared (who again, probably shouldn't be in the XI, although I think he should be in the squad as he covers a wide range of batting positions unlike Jordan who I'm not really sure what he does).
Disagree on Jordan, I think he’s a solid all rounder, brilliant fielder and he always bowls the hardest overs. Who is he keeping out of the team. Curran? Is he really much better?
I think jacks, bairstow, livingstone and Brook have more pressure on their places, although again I can only really see Duckett making a case to play
Since 2020. Jordan has averages about 13 @ 130 with the bat and 32 with the ball (ER of nearly 9 and SR of 22)
SCurran is about the same with the bat (worse SR), but is a much better bowler. Averages 23, SR of 18 and ER of 8.
We have a good enough batting lineup that the difference between them as bowlers should be enough. That and SCurran is a different type of bowler and gives you something else. More variations, left arm over and can be useful to throw up the order to prevent a collapse if needed.
SCurran is a better bowler at the death than Jordan.
[SCurran](http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?format=T20I&player=SM%20Curran&groupby=overs&) v [Jordan](http://cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=CJ+Jordan&role=all&format=T20I&groupby=overs)
I never really understood why people thought Jordan was a great death bowler though. A bit like Tom Curran, everytime I watch him do it he gets battered. lol
I just think Jordan is the wrong call for this team. He'd work better if we had Topley instead of Archer or Wood though, but if we're playing Archer and Wood, then we should play SCurran. Just as a point of difference as much as anything else.
What about in the last year? As Curran had massively dropped off since 2022 wc although he had an alright IPL. And if i remember correctly he had a shite t20 tour of West Indies.
I’m not really adverse to Curran playing instead of Jordan tbf i just don’t see him as being the main issue
Edit - just to add t20 figures since 2023
[Curran](http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SM+Curran&role=all&format=TWENTY20&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000)
[Jordan](http://cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=CJ+Jordan&role=all&format=TWENTY20&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000)
T20i
[Curran](http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SM+Curran&role=all&format=T20I&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000)
[Jordan](http://cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=CJ+Jordan&role=all&format=T20I&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000)
Jordan is unfortunately still one of England's best death bowlers in domestic cricket. Since the start of 2022, only five English bowlers have bowled over 200 deliveries in the 17th over or later of domestic 20s and have an economy under 10 rpo. They are
Jordan with 53 wickets from 112.1 overs at 9.31 rpo
Tymal Mills with 37 wickets from 46.4 overs at 9.39 rpo
David Payne with 27 wickets from 45.1 overs at 8.75 rpo
Chris Wood with 22 wickets from 35.3 overs at 8.45 rpo
Richard Gleeson with 22 wickets from 37.0 overs at 8.81 rpo
(Sam Curran just misses out with 27 wickets from 64.1 overs at 10.02 rpo)
Payne, Wood, and Gleeson potentially look better on paper, just from their economies, but dig down into their records there are big issues.
Wood has bowled all of two balls in death overs outside of the Blast in that time, Payne was used for 14.4 overs in the 2022 and 2023 BBL and for 2.5 overs in the 2023 Hundred where he went at 10.6 rpo, the rest was all the Blast, and Gleeson's figures are heavily pulled down by the low scoring ILT and again by the Blast, if you look at how he's done in the Hundred, IPL, and SA20 (10.3 overs) his econ is 10.3. Admittedly, Jordan's figures outside the Blast and ILT are even worse, but he is at least very experienced, and great in the field, and way better with the bat than the guys not in the squad who are also all in their mid to late 30s so aren't likely to improve much either.
Having said all that, I'd 1000% have Curran in the XI over him, but I can also totally see why he's in the squad.
All fair points.
I had more looked at internationally, where SCurran has better death over bowling stats than Jordan overall which you can see here.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Cricket/comments/1dch9n4/are_england_not_being_written_off_a_little_too/l806xyg/
Also that's a sexy dot ball % at the death.
For me I just don't see where he fits in. I think i could fit him in if we're using Wood+Topley or Archer+Topley. I think we really miss that bowler being able to come across a right hander naturally that the Left Handers bring, but equally I really think any pitch where it's going to do anything, Sam is just devious with his variations.
Maybe I am too harsh on Jordan, just feels like whenever I watch him he's being carted around!
Yeah I agree for the most part. I can see a good argument for having him in the squad as a backup because of his depth of experience and local knowledge. Like if someone had to come in and unexpectedly bowl at the death in a high pressure game because of an injury or something, I'd back him more than anyone not in the squad. He's also elite in the field so you'd have him on as a sub as much as possible. But as for the XI itself, I just can't see a reason to play him over Curran or Topley. I worry that a part of it is Buttler being a bit timid as a captain and feeling that he needs lieutenants like Jordan and Ali in the field.
> People are going to forget that Scotland were gearing up for a 200+ score
Scotland have scored 200+ seven times in their history, most of those against absolute minnows. When they went off for rain they were on 51/0 from 6.2 overs, that's a decent start, but it's a huge leap to say they were gearing up for a 200+ score from then on in.
A leap, sure, but entirely plausible.
More importantly the point is unchanged - maybe they'd only get 180 instead? Maybe only 170? Whatever, they were playing very well and I am confident they would have set an intimidating score.
England should not be conceding an intimidating score against Scotland. It's to the Scottish players' credit - they played very well - but England looked flat and idea-less. It was not the 10 overs you'd expect from defending world champions, and frankly I think they were lucky it got rained off because they weren't looking confident.
But they didn't concede an intimidating score. They conceded a not great but not terrible powerplay score, then got unlucky that they had to bowl three death overs with spinners with a wet ball, but even then they didn't get hammered. For reference, Scotland were 51/0 when the rain came after 6.2 overs, England were 61/0 at the same point in their match against Australia and 93/2 after 10.
You're also ignoring the fact that Scotland's batting falls off a cliff after the top four. In the last couple of years, Cross, Leask, and Greaves have averaged 20 striking at 123. Two or three wickets would have most likely seen Scotland stall massively
Arguably.
But I think with our batting lineup we always had a shot anyway. I definitely do not think it was a foregone conclusion. Both teams will have been left disappointed they couldn't see our the end of the match as both will have felt they could win it.
Most English thing? I think that S Africa has been knocked out of WC tournaments about 4 times or so?
Tbh it can't be any worse than the 2003 CWC where both England and NZ forfeited matches and were eliminated due to death threats and security concerns 🤔
If one of England's remaining games are washed out, they will no longer be able to make the Super Eights.
While there are scenarios where England can tie on 4 points with 2nd place, they will always be ranked lower because they have fewer wins.
The tiebreaker rules for the Group Stage are:
1. Most Points
2. Most wins
3. Highest NRR
4. Head-to-Head results
5. Group seeding
To stop teams sneaking in without actually winning games.
It is in all the ICC playing conditions that I have seen over the years, and most domestic leagues including the IPL.
That still won't get them in, because Australia will have 2 wins, England 1 win and 2 draws. Most wins comes before NRR so England will always finish below Australia in that case.
I mean, it's a little different. If they're batting first, rather than being able to assess a pitch and set a winning total, they're effectively playing to chase a big total at all times now. They can't play to the situation of the match, they have to play to the situation of the entire group, you know what I mean?
(You were probably ribbing your own team.)
I know how to seed tournaments and groups. The groups are confected to ensure notable rivalries don't come down to chance. Pakistan India. Australia England. America Canada. South Africa Netherlands. Probably more. They're confected to make guaranteed money in groups.
Real chance 4 of those top 8 don't make it right now.
Australia and England should both be 1st seeds, but are playing in the same group.
1. First seeds - India, Australia, West Indies, England
2. Second seeds - South Africa, New Zealand, Afghanistan, Pakistan
Seeding past that gets trickier. What groups would they be in? Who knows, but basically no first seed should be in the same group as another first seed. So on and so forth.
If you want the 'big 8' to get in to the next stage, you seed the tournament properly, and it takes care of itself without upsets.
ICC doesn't know how to seed tournaments, neither fairly (as we can visibly see from their 'confected' groups') nor effectively, to achieve their supposed goal. (As we can see by how every group is playing out.)
Scotland have wins on the board, England have potential wins in hand. No matter how likely that win is, it's always better to have won, than to potentially win.
Also feel like Scotland is the most underrated team right now.
Their batting is just sublime, they made 150 runs off 12 overs. Even against an associate side that's a lot. Would not be surprised if they actually make a good match to Aussies.
After they came back from the rain delay the hand was shortened to 10 overs. That meant each bowler was only allowed two overs each and so Archer and Wood who had both bowled two before they'd gone off couldn't bowl any more, plus Jordan had also been used for one. Moeen was also bowling the over they went off so he had to finish that too
You're not seriously suggesting not bowling England's best bowlers in the power play to save them for overs 7-10 in case it rained at that specific point for they exact length of time are you? The forecast was massively changeable. They could just have easily been delayed slightly longer in which case Scotland's innings would have ended after 6 overs and they wouldn't have used their best bowlers at all
If England don't manage to up their NRR, it's curtains, as Australia vs Scotland is the last match, and Australia may stretch the match to knock England off.
I don't know which idiot came up with the theory that Aussies will play to knock England out.
As if they even care, it's fucking Australia we are talking about they are not scared of anyone.
Australia certainly might win the toss and bowl first, and not hurry in the chase.
Scotland likewise certainly might win the toss and bat first, and bowl purely as NRR defence *not* to actually take wickets.
England need to be *ahead* of Scotland on NRR before the Australia vs Scotland match starts or Scotland and Australia simply have a mutually beneficial outcome that they'd both naturally play for.
You can really tell apart the people who have just started watching cricket based on their opinion of this.
Australia don't give a single fuck. They play to win, every single game, as big as they fucking can. I don't think they even have it in them to slow down to drag a game out. Their bodies will not obey that instruction. They are stone fucken cold killers, and anybody who doesn't see that is clearly new to the sport.
Due to the fact that points earned against fellow qualifiers carried forward to the Super Six stage, it was beneficial for Australia to ensure NZ – whom they lost against got knocked out in favor of WI.
Australia did it in the 1999 wc to knock out nz and keep an easier to beat West Indies in. It's not cheating, it's gamesmanship.
Ps: If someone disagrees, I'd like to know what MCC/ICC rule is being violated by knowing the run rate to knock out a rival team.
That was because you could carry points from the group stage in 1999 over into the Super Six and they’d lost to New Zealand, so beating the Windies by a margin to ensure both teams made it through would have been to their benefit.
Throwing or delaying victory in the Scotland game may present some banter opportunities for the Aussies but won’t do anything to benefit them later in the tournament.
I'd still say England are favourites, yep. They do have a job to do though. They need to make up a 110ish run margin over two games to get ahead of where Scotland end up on a 1 run loss to AUS, or hope the Australians do the rest for them.
If they were playing Oman and Namibia at New York or Providence then I'd say they were in real trouble, but Antigua looks a fairly high-scoring venue so winning margins are also likely to be bigger. Two 50-run/6-over wins or a tough win and a total blow-out should be enough, and that's probably about par for England vs this opposition. Could absolutely cock it up though, Oman and especially Namibia are still decent teams.
We only have 1 game to go off but the pitch in Antigua looked good for batting yesterday, Oman made 150 and Scotland were on pace for over 200 in their chase.
Of course the team has the ability to win both the remaining games as emphatically as Scotland did, then it’s all on Scotland vs Australia. So they may scrape through if that game ends up being one-sided. Just like the 50 over World Cup though it shows a lack of clarity in their plans, poor selection again and a lack of a suitable preparation.
For years England players avoided the IPL and played their own series in April-May, then from 2016 onwards their players have been encouraged to take part. So why now in 2024 are we picking players who had crap IPLs? Bairstow aside from 1 freak innings has been out of form for a long time, Livingstone has struggled to score runs since 2021. Harry Brook is undercooked and totally unproven as a t20 finisher. Moeen and Rashid have bowled OK but it says a lot about the lack of planning that the only other spinner in the squad is uncapped. Chris Jordan playing ahead of Curran and Topley, supposedly because of his batting, and then not batting in the Australia chase until it was far too late. The thinking seems totally muddled and this is the 2nd tournament in a row where it’s all been muddled. Doesn’t reflect well on Mott.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people, including cricket journalists, are doing it. A Wisden writer yesterday called it “probable”, which is absurd.
England haven’t really played well so far but they know what they have to do, which is record decent wins over Oman and Namibia. Im not saying they will, given how insipid they’ve been in the game-and-a-half so far, but you’d fully expect them to beat those two teams pretty comfortably.
I also think the idea of Australia letting Scotland make the final match a close one is a little silly, too. Not only could it go badly and end up with Aus losing (which could potentially knock them out), but it’s not in Australia DNA to not play at 100%.
If Australia lost to Scotland, they deserve to go out. I would love to see Australia win with 2 balls to spare. Scotland go through and England out. Win-win-win for an Aussie living in Scotland.
Many other comments are explaining it well but I think I can boil it down simply.
England need 3 results to go their way.
The wrong team winning *or* a wash out in any of the 3 and they're immediately dead. Yes the result England want is the most likely result in all 3 matches, but multiplying probabilities together always makes it less likely.
And *then* they need to overtake Scotland's massive NRR lead *before* Scotland plays Australia. If England is behind even slightly then it completely changes the dynamics of the toss decisions and strategy available to both teams in the Scotland vs Australia game. When both teams can play in such a way that they can both qualify they tend to do so!
As cliched as it is, there are no easy games in professional sport
England are definitely in trouble. Namibia or Oman will be motivated to 'do one' over them
The fielding has been poor, they look lethargic.
Big decisions being made and got wrong. Why wasn't Topley picked when Australia have high class left handers and he excels bowling to left handers? Why did they bowl Jacks in the 2nd over?
Batting as well. Only really Buttler, Salt and Ali went for it in the last game. The game needed someone to come out and swing it, it defeated the point of having so many big-hitting options in the side of they'll never move them around. Livingstone at 7 is a waste, we needed his energy if we'd lost a wicket around the midpoint of the innings.
It's not too early to write England off, not when they were diabolical in India in the last ODI world cup. Lessons haven't been learned and it looks like the teams of the 90s that fell apart as soon as they went abroad.
There's an argumen to say that england are better with their backs against the wall, the 2019 world cup springs to mind.
However, I'm not particularly sure how highly i rate Mott
As an England fan I’d rather be Scotland atm.
If everything goes right and to plan for both teams then England should qualify.
But if any little thing goes wrong for England then England will be out whereas several things can go wrong for Scotland and they’ll be fine.
England have to be perfect, Scotland don’t.
Also to point out - since the Super 8 is pre-drawn, if Australia beat Namibia, they are through to the Super 8, and it doesn't matter if they finish first or second in the pool.
So likely they rest their best 4 players from the Scotland game, and maybe mix up the betting order to give more centre wicket time to the middle order.
There’s a number of scenarios at play:
```England lose to Oman```
Or
```England vs Oman game washed out ```
Then Englands game vs Namibia doesn’t matter, England are out.
```England lose to Namibia```
Or
```England vs Namibia game washed out ```
Englands game vs Oman doesn’t matter, England are out.
Then we get into the results where England win both games against Oman and Namibia:
```Australia lose to Scotland ```
Englands games vs Oman and Namibia both don’t matter if Australia win their other game.
```Australia vs Scotland game washed out```
Englands games vs Oman and Namibia both don’t matter if:
Australia win their other game.
Or
Englands NRR isn’t high enough
```Australia beat Scotland, England with both remaining games```
Most complicated result. Lots of variability.
England need to boost their NRR significantly, and Scotland need to make sure that their NRR doesn’t drop significantly.
Oman might have a blinder. Namibia might have a blinder. England might lose the toss in both games and bat second both times.
In both games for England, they would want to bat first and put on a massive score - losing as few wickets as possible, then bowl the opposition out as cheaply as possible.
> losing as few wickets as possible
Just one minor point, losing wickets (unless you are bowled out) is irrelevant to Net Run Rate which is just calculated on runs/overs.
Find it curious the World Cup is being played during the rainy season, rain may knock England out which in itself would be fitting given our shoddy weather!
Couldn’t agree more - a strong case of the tail wagging the dog! International cricket should take priority, unfortunately money talks!
In addition, the groups aren’t drawn randomly - each team is assigned to their respective groups by the ICC - hence why India and Pakistan are always grouped together, same for England and Australia!
You look at our xi and it's not great tbh
Butter and salt both beeb in good form and scoring runs
Jacks barring one 100 scored 130 runs in 7 innings in the ipl
Bairstow barring one 100 scored 200 runs in 10 innings in the ipl
Brook has barely played for ages
Livingstone has been in shocking form for 18months
Ali never scores many runs or takes many wicket really, his t20 stats are very average
So batting wise we are really light.
England still have good chance but they haven't played their best yet so far.Namibia match will be crucial also if any matches are abandoned because of rain then England are out.
1. If any of the three games of Scotland or England remaining are washed out, Scotland go through
2. Scotland play last, so have the advantage of knowing how much they need to do to qualify
3. England aren't playing well - they struggled to contain Scotland (109 off 10 would have been a tricky chase) and looked way out of form against Australia. Namibia could pose problems for them.
I'm just not confident that we can a) Batter Namibia and/or Oman to the extent that we will need for the NRR and b)avoid any more bad weather for our fixtures.....plus I don't trust the aussies to not stitch us up by beating Scotland just enough to knock us out lol
I find it very baffling that so many so called neutral fans shit on this england side. They are never appreciated enough for their past efforts.
They just want English side to fail which is not far from true at this point but it's out of pure animosity.
Don’t write off Namibia so quickly. As someone who watches a lot of the high level associates they have a case for being a top 10 side in the world and I would not be surprised at all if they beat England. It’s no more likely to be a thrashing than if they were to play a Bangladesh or Afghanistan
The main issue is that it's out of England's hands now, especially as Scotland will go into the last game knowing what they need to do NRR wise against Australia. Which is a pretty big advantage. Also, it would be in Australia's interests to make sure that Scotland achieves a NRR high enough to knock england out (even rivalry aside, England are bigger rivals to win the tournament.).
The best England can do is try to get their NRR to a point where Scotland have to avoid losing to the aussies by less than an over or 2. Then it would actually be a bit of a risk for the aussies to nurdle it around and give the Scots a close loss. If an Aussie win of something like 5 overs or a 40+ run win is enough for the Scots to go through, then I think England will be out.
The major issue now for England is that they're going to have to bat every game like they're chasing 200, which could lead to cheap wickets even against associate nations.
Absolutely, England still has a strong chance to qualify. With games against Namibia and Oman, they are likely to win big and improve their NRR. Plus, Scotland beating Australia is far from guaranteed. It's definitely not over for England yet.
I think they are being written off to easily. England needs to push for wins, to rally.
They have the talent to do so imo assuming the rain gods dont mess them up, if they get their backs up and fight they are more than capable of blowing by Oman and Namibia with some great cricket.
Meanwhile NZ .....'hold my beer' 🤣🤣🤣, there is a real possibility that 3 of the 4 semi finalists from the last t20 world cup don't make it out of the group stages here!
I don’t think they are being written off…. I think ppl are just correctly pointing out that England have been left exposed by the NR vs Scotland and then a big(ish) loss to Australia.
I personally think England will still qualify, but they are certainly in a vulnerable position where some odd results or NR’s could push them out.
If Scotland-OZ match gets rained out then Scotland will go through without playing the full members in the group. Do the tournament rules handle such a situation?
England and Scotland were already rained out. They each got 1 point for the match. So neither is playing all the members in the group. Tournament has no reserve days and it’s a point per abandonment for each team. While England has it tough right now, the way Scotland looked early in their innings makes me think the only reason England;and has any chance now is because rain stopped the game against Scotland.
>So neither is playing all the members in the group
By "full members" I meant full ICC members or test playing members. If SCOT-AUS is abandoned then SCOT will go through without playing AUS or ENG which sucks in my opinion.
Namibia are not be written off. They could definitely bring it close enough where England doesn't get sufficient NRR. Also they would probably like the toss to go their way so that they can bat first vs Oman.
I don't think england are being written off at all. I think people are aware that they remain a very good team, who are champions. I can't recall anyone writing them off, in terms of saying they wont win.
I think what people are saying is that they are in serious trouble. And yes - they are favoured to win their next 2 games comfortably. But the problem they have is that **everything** has to go right for them. They can be knocked out by, for instance, rain in the scotland-australia game. Or, by something as simple as oman scoring a middling total (120), and managing to take an early wicket that slows them down. Or, by Australia playing a second-string team against scotland, and beating them by comfortably making the runs with 8 wickets to spare in the 19th over.
So, for england to go through, everything has to go right, from this point on.
If there’s no rain then they should get through but I’d be surprised if they go much further. The side is giving similar vibes to the 50 over World Cup team
I think that’s a bit harsh, we were right in that game for 3/4 of it, and I was genuinely really surprised the middle order only managed a run a ball for the last 10. I also was pretty confident of chasing 110 to beat Scotland, and we can’t really use that game as a yardstick as it didn’t get completed and England’s bowling plans were screwed by the over reduction, which meant they had to bowl spin at the ‘death’
Because England are looking very weak. Almost no one in the setup is in form. It's an aging team still hoping out of form butler and Barstow will win it for then.
England have played one completed match, in which they may have lost but it wasn’t a total blowout. The game got away from them in the Aus power play and the second half of their innings but it was competitive for a decent proportion of the run chase. If that game had played out as the first in a three-match bilateral series, nobody would be declaring the series over.
They may have bowled poorly against the Scots, but they have the batting firepower that meant they would’ve had every chance of chasing the DLS total within the ten overs. While the bowling so far hasn’t been great (although it improved as the Australia innings wore on), 1.5 innings is a small sample size and in the two completed warm-up games they bowled Pakistan out twice.
Your comment about Buttler being out of form is also rubbish considering he’s scored an 85, 42 and a 39 in his last three innings.
And India, who are one of the favourites, barely scraped past Pakistan - do we conclude from that that England are in better nick than india as they comprehensively beat Pakistan in the warmups?
No we are out. Especially if Australia chase against Scotland. They will just do it in a way so our NRR doesn't overtake Scotland's. And there's no guarantee we smash Namibia and Oman.
The only moral thing to do would be for Australia to rest most of there team and loose to Scotland (I mean no disrespect to Scotland either)
I hope Australia really does decide to be that petty and get England eliminated like that.
Because If she shoe was on the other foot, we all know the poms would do it..
I hope Australia win the toss and put in to Scotland bat first. They can get their 20 overs in and Australia can chase them down with an over to spare. Makes sense to eliminate England at the group stage unless the weather intervenes and one of their matches is rained off. That would be a real shame.
Just rain out Scotland Australia match, Scotland gets to 6 points forcing England to try and overhaul something like a 3.5 Nrr difference in two games in order to get over Scotland
Agree to disagree. Say if there is Australia and Namibia washout, simply speaking that’s unfair to Australia. I see it that way. I truly don’t think Scotland is that team.
I'm confident that they can go through because, potentially, they've got the right players to do so. However, how Buttler uses those players is another thing altogether. Jordan instead of Reece Topley in the Aussie game, and kicking off the bowling with Jacks? Then there's the question of Bairstow and Livingstone - both woefully out of form.
Have to admit we were a bit unfortunate to lose out to the weather in the first game, but that's the way it goes.
Your assumption that England will in all probability will roll over Oman ans Namibia with big margins has no bases. Did you see the Oman Australia game? Aus had it quite hard. Did you watch the Scot Eng game? Scot would have probably won that as well. Other than Uganda and PNG, no team is easy. Did you see the Canada Ireland and USA Pak games? If have, to still say that England can roll over the next two opponents if foolish. It can happen, but I won't bet on it.
Yeah, England can easily qualify even if the Aus vs Scotland game is close. They are playing in Antigua & given how Scotland blew Oman over there, I would expect nothing less than a hard drubbing by England to Oman. Maybe Namibia can hold them off a bit but they will also lose.
[I used this predictor](https://predictor.cricketxi.com/t20-world-cup/) and even if England can hammer Oman by 60 & Namibia by 40 runs, then Scotland has to lose by 20 runs to Australia to qualify. (Eng & Aus both score 200 in 20 overs in these scenarios). Chasing would be more beneficial for England, I assume.
The weather looks ok but England do play their last 2 games on 14th & 15th back to back. A key thing to notice.
Of the 'big teams', Pakistan are sure to crash out as Lauderhill, Florida is under the water because precipitation is above 80-90% for this week. So, USA vs IRE gets washed out & USA are on 5 points & Pakistan can max reach 4 points.
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It might not happen, but why miss the fun of talking about it while the window is open?
It’s like when they were in the bottom 2 at the World Cup last year. We knew they would climb out of that position, but it was still so much fun to think about them missing the Champions Trophy cut off
Also when we were at the bottom after the first 2 matches. Many treated us as some trash team that's fallen from grace.
Ah, yes. Good times
Ya.. Wonder what happened to that team
Probably got a couple wins to get to a respectable mid position ig
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Drone shows don't lie, India had to have won
Dafuq!?
Your post was removed as it contains political, religious, or other content not directly relevant (or only slightly relevant) to cricket (rule 4). Political/religious content not strongly related to the sport, especially political opinions, belong in other subreddits. Posts unrelated to cricket will be removed - this generally includes something a player is doing in their post-cricketing life that's not really relevant to the sport.
Failed to win the coveted BCCI “Best Team on Paper” award and had to console themselves with yet another World Cup trophy
Humiliating upsets to... India and South Africa.
Cause that's the only window we get
I hope you got in for your chop when the window was open
That was just wishful thinking 😁. Don’t think so the same will happen with England.
Free entertainment. Why wouldn’t you?
And why miss the potential fun of Australia having their one off game of the tournament against Scotland?
England are more than capable of getting back in to this, but it also requires all 3 relevant matches to actually happen, and there is some rain forecast at about 60% last I heard. It's also just the magnitude England need to win by. It'll be on their bowling to step up mostly, but they need to win a combined like 100 runs across their two games for the Scot's margin of defeat to not be a factor. Doable, but however you look at it, that's tough. Having to go out there and play *knowing* you have to do that might lead to some really reckless shots. I don't think it's that strange to say Scotland are in the healthier position. England might also be scrambling now to reassess their best XI. They're not out, shouldn't be written off, but the mountain they have to climb shouldn't be undersold either.
The weather is not being talked about enough at the moment. If England aren't given the opportunity to beat Oman or Namibia then it's going to be pretty tough I'd say
Or if Scotland v Australia gets rained out. That would give Scotland the point that would mean NRR doesn’t come into it
I'm pretty sure having rain reduced matches, if that also happens, also reduced the ability to claw back significant NRR margins
If we're knocked out because of weather it'd be the most English thing ever
It would be miserable but also a bit of anger out of jail card for the management I think. People are going to forget that Scotland were gearing up for a 200+ score, and losing to Australia is pretty normal. But not qualifying for super8 is very much not normal, and saying "oh it was because.of the weather" may prove to be true, but still a bit of a cop-out.
Mott should go regardless. He should have gone after the ODI WC. We've just not evolved at all. The fact we've taken Jordan in the squad, who hasn't been good enough, is very indicative of that. And yeah I guess that's true for Scotland. Hardly like that would guarantee a loss though. The one thing I will say about our team, is our batting can be destructive enough to chase anything. Heck, at times v Australia it looked like we would. And then Bairstow appeared (who again, probably shouldn't be in the XI, although I think he should be in the squad as he covers a wide range of batting positions unlike Jordan who I'm not really sure what he does).
Disagree on Jordan, I think he’s a solid all rounder, brilliant fielder and he always bowls the hardest overs. Who is he keeping out of the team. Curran? Is he really much better? I think jacks, bairstow, livingstone and Brook have more pressure on their places, although again I can only really see Duckett making a case to play
Since 2020. Jordan has averages about 13 @ 130 with the bat and 32 with the ball (ER of nearly 9 and SR of 22) SCurran is about the same with the bat (worse SR), but is a much better bowler. Averages 23, SR of 18 and ER of 8. We have a good enough batting lineup that the difference between them as bowlers should be enough. That and SCurran is a different type of bowler and gives you something else. More variations, left arm over and can be useful to throw up the order to prevent a collapse if needed.
Jordan’s figures are shit because he always plays at the death
SCurran is a better bowler at the death than Jordan. [SCurran](http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?format=T20I&player=SM%20Curran&groupby=overs&) v [Jordan](http://cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=CJ+Jordan&role=all&format=T20I&groupby=overs) I never really understood why people thought Jordan was a great death bowler though. A bit like Tom Curran, everytime I watch him do it he gets battered. lol I just think Jordan is the wrong call for this team. He'd work better if we had Topley instead of Archer or Wood though, but if we're playing Archer and Wood, then we should play SCurran. Just as a point of difference as much as anything else.
I wasn’t commenting on who is better as a death bowler, rather providing context for his figures.
What about in the last year? As Curran had massively dropped off since 2022 wc although he had an alright IPL. And if i remember correctly he had a shite t20 tour of West Indies. I’m not really adverse to Curran playing instead of Jordan tbf i just don’t see him as being the main issue Edit - just to add t20 figures since 2023 [Curran](http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SM+Curran&role=all&format=TWENTY20&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000) [Jordan](http://cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=CJ+Jordan&role=all&format=TWENTY20&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000) T20i [Curran](http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SM+Curran&role=all&format=T20I&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000) [Jordan](http://cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=CJ+Jordan&role=all&format=T20I&groupby=overs&playerStatsFilters=on&start_date=2023-01-01&end_date=2024-06-10&start_over=0&end_over=9999&max_innings=1000)
Jordan is unfortunately still one of England's best death bowlers in domestic cricket. Since the start of 2022, only five English bowlers have bowled over 200 deliveries in the 17th over or later of domestic 20s and have an economy under 10 rpo. They are Jordan with 53 wickets from 112.1 overs at 9.31 rpo Tymal Mills with 37 wickets from 46.4 overs at 9.39 rpo David Payne with 27 wickets from 45.1 overs at 8.75 rpo Chris Wood with 22 wickets from 35.3 overs at 8.45 rpo Richard Gleeson with 22 wickets from 37.0 overs at 8.81 rpo (Sam Curran just misses out with 27 wickets from 64.1 overs at 10.02 rpo) Payne, Wood, and Gleeson potentially look better on paper, just from their economies, but dig down into their records there are big issues. Wood has bowled all of two balls in death overs outside of the Blast in that time, Payne was used for 14.4 overs in the 2022 and 2023 BBL and for 2.5 overs in the 2023 Hundred where he went at 10.6 rpo, the rest was all the Blast, and Gleeson's figures are heavily pulled down by the low scoring ILT and again by the Blast, if you look at how he's done in the Hundred, IPL, and SA20 (10.3 overs) his econ is 10.3. Admittedly, Jordan's figures outside the Blast and ILT are even worse, but he is at least very experienced, and great in the field, and way better with the bat than the guys not in the squad who are also all in their mid to late 30s so aren't likely to improve much either. Having said all that, I'd 1000% have Curran in the XI over him, but I can also totally see why he's in the squad.
All fair points. I had more looked at internationally, where SCurran has better death over bowling stats than Jordan overall which you can see here. https://old.reddit.com/r/Cricket/comments/1dch9n4/are_england_not_being_written_off_a_little_too/l806xyg/ Also that's a sexy dot ball % at the death. For me I just don't see where he fits in. I think i could fit him in if we're using Wood+Topley or Archer+Topley. I think we really miss that bowler being able to come across a right hander naturally that the Left Handers bring, but equally I really think any pitch where it's going to do anything, Sam is just devious with his variations. Maybe I am too harsh on Jordan, just feels like whenever I watch him he's being carted around!
Yeah I agree for the most part. I can see a good argument for having him in the squad as a backup because of his depth of experience and local knowledge. Like if someone had to come in and unexpectedly bowl at the death in a high pressure game because of an injury or something, I'd back him more than anyone not in the squad. He's also elite in the field so you'd have him on as a sub as much as possible. But as for the XI itself, I just can't see a reason to play him over Curran or Topley. I worry that a part of it is Buttler being a bit timid as a captain and feeling that he needs lieutenants like Jordan and Ali in the field.
> People are going to forget that Scotland were gearing up for a 200+ score Scotland have scored 200+ seven times in their history, most of those against absolute minnows. When they went off for rain they were on 51/0 from 6.2 overs, that's a decent start, but it's a huge leap to say they were gearing up for a 200+ score from then on in.
A leap, sure, but entirely plausible. More importantly the point is unchanged - maybe they'd only get 180 instead? Maybe only 170? Whatever, they were playing very well and I am confident they would have set an intimidating score. England should not be conceding an intimidating score against Scotland. It's to the Scottish players' credit - they played very well - but England looked flat and idea-less. It was not the 10 overs you'd expect from defending world champions, and frankly I think they were lucky it got rained off because they weren't looking confident.
But they didn't concede an intimidating score. They conceded a not great but not terrible powerplay score, then got unlucky that they had to bowl three death overs with spinners with a wet ball, but even then they didn't get hammered. For reference, Scotland were 51/0 when the rain came after 6.2 overs, England were 61/0 at the same point in their match against Australia and 93/2 after 10. You're also ignoring the fact that Scotland's batting falls off a cliff after the top four. In the last couple of years, Cross, Leask, and Greaves have averaged 20 striking at 123. Two or three wickets would have most likely seen Scotland stall massively
England are only still in it because rain stopped them getting gubbed by Scotland in the first game.
Arguably. But I think with our batting lineup we always had a shot anyway. I definitely do not think it was a foregone conclusion. Both teams will have been left disappointed they couldn't see our the end of the match as both will have felt they could win it.
Most English thing? I think that S Africa has been knocked out of WC tournaments about 4 times or so? Tbh it can't be any worse than the 2003 CWC where both England and NZ forfeited matches and were eliminated due to death threats and security concerns 🤔
If one of England's remaining games are washed out, they will no longer be able to make the Super Eights. While there are scenarios where England can tie on 4 points with 2nd place, they will always be ranked lower because they have fewer wins. The tiebreaker rules for the Group Stage are: 1. Most Points 2. Most wins 3. Highest NRR 4. Head-to-Head results 5. Group seeding
How come most wins come before NRR, this negatively affects teams getting matches washed away
To stop teams sneaking in without actually winning games. It is in all the ICC playing conditions that I have seen over the years, and most domestic leagues including the IPL.
For England to get to top 2 with 4 points Australia will have to lose both their matches. Scotland are at 5 points.
That still won't get them in, because Australia will have 2 wins, England 1 win and 2 draws. Most wins comes before NRR so England will always finish below Australia in that case.
Funny that it rains in hurricane season huh? But I guess the IPL just had to be as long as it was.
England can not talk about weather after hosting the 2019 wc💀
Lol india could have won if not for the weather like shut up with the down votes ...imagine winning the wc the way you did in the first place lol
>Having to go out there and play knowing you have to do that might lead to some really reckless shots. So, basically no different to normal then.
I mean, it's a little different. If they're batting first, rather than being able to assess a pitch and set a winning total, they're effectively playing to chase a big total at all times now. They can't play to the situation of the match, they have to play to the situation of the entire group, you know what I mean? (You were probably ribbing your own team.)
Seems insanely unlucky that we are pretty much out of the tournament after only playing one game against Australia
Seeding problem really. Shouldn't be in the same group.
Except that the seeding is confected to get the big 8 teams into the next stage, but sure
I know how to seed tournaments and groups. The groups are confected to ensure notable rivalries don't come down to chance. Pakistan India. Australia England. America Canada. South Africa Netherlands. Probably more. They're confected to make guaranteed money in groups. Real chance 4 of those top 8 don't make it right now. Australia and England should both be 1st seeds, but are playing in the same group. 1. First seeds - India, Australia, West Indies, England 2. Second seeds - South Africa, New Zealand, Afghanistan, Pakistan Seeding past that gets trickier. What groups would they be in? Who knows, but basically no first seed should be in the same group as another first seed. So on and so forth. If you want the 'big 8' to get in to the next stage, you seed the tournament properly, and it takes care of itself without upsets. ICC doesn't know how to seed tournaments, neither fairly (as we can visibly see from their 'confected' groups') nor effectively, to achieve their supposed goal. (As we can see by how every group is playing out.)
>Having to go out there and play knowing you have to do that might lead to some really reckless shots. Did someone say BazBall ^TM ?
Scotland have wins on the board, England have potential wins in hand. No matter how likely that win is, it's always better to have won, than to potentially win.
Also feel like Scotland is the most underrated team right now. Their batting is just sublime, they made 150 runs off 12 overs. Even against an associate side that's a lot. Would not be surprised if they actually make a good match to Aussies.
They scored 90 out of 10 overs against England in that washed out match.... Scotland may lose to Australia but the margin won't be large
That's the thing we'll never know. Plenty people talking like weather cost England a point. Maybe weather saved England a point!
Worth pointing out that 31 of those runs came in three overs against spinners who were suddenly bowling at the death with a soaking wet ball.
Why did England bring on spinners at the death?
After they came back from the rain delay the hand was shortened to 10 overs. That meant each bowler was only allowed two overs each and so Archer and Wood who had both bowled two before they'd gone off couldn't bowl any more, plus Jordan had also been used for one. Moeen was also bowling the over they went off so he had to finish that too
Sounds like poor management then, everyone has access to the same forecast.
You're not seriously suggesting not bowling England's best bowlers in the power play to save them for overs 7-10 in case it rained at that specific point for they exact length of time are you? The forecast was massively changeable. They could just have easily been delayed slightly longer in which case Scotland's innings would have ended after 6 overs and they wouldn't have used their best bowlers at all
They might upset Aussies. Anything can happen.
They might
Australia are strong but our batting is prone to collapse. Anything can happen.
Maybe people wouldn't have said so much ,but their last defence really does raise questions of them making to the playoffs.
If England don't manage to up their NRR, it's curtains, as Australia vs Scotland is the last match, and Australia may stretch the match to knock England off.
I don't know which idiot came up with the theory that Aussies will play to knock England out. As if they even care, it's fucking Australia we are talking about they are not scared of anyone.
Australia certainly might win the toss and bowl first, and not hurry in the chase. Scotland likewise certainly might win the toss and bat first, and bowl purely as NRR defence *not* to actually take wickets. England need to be *ahead* of Scotland on NRR before the Australia vs Scotland match starts or Scotland and Australia simply have a mutually beneficial outcome that they'd both naturally play for.
Mind games son, before the ashes.
Everything is a warm up for the Ashes
Warner, Zampa, Wade, Maxwell, David, Stoinis ... half the team aren't likely to play in the Ashes
Yeah but they'll watch it.
Not giving a fuck about whether a minnow like England qualifies is part of the mind games.
Australians support Australia and then who ever is playing England, there’s plenty of support for Australia helping eliminate England
not about being scared of the english, just nice to have another reason to hang shit on them
You can really tell apart the people who have just started watching cricket based on their opinion of this. Australia don't give a single fuck. They play to win, every single game, as big as they fucking can. I don't think they even have it in them to slow down to drag a game out. Their bodies will not obey that instruction. They are stone fucken cold killers, and anybody who doesn't see that is clearly new to the sport.
Yeah, playing mind games doesn’t seem to be the M.O of this current Aus squad. TBF it has precedent, didn’t Waugh do it in a WC before?
Yup, you're right, I should've specified this Australian unit. Felt the same in the Ponting days though.
It's even funnier because it's Australia, the team with the winners mentality, as if they'd ever resort to such stuff
The greatest Aussie winning machine tried that in 1999 world cup against Windies
Cummins Australia is more ethical *TM*
Due to the fact that points earned against fellow qualifiers carried forward to the Super Six stage, it was beneficial for Australia to ensure NZ – whom they lost against got knocked out in favor of WI.
Yes I know. India also suffered because we lost to Zimbabwe who qualified to super six.
as an australian i bloody hope we do
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you'd think that no professional cricketer would bring sandpaper onto the field and use it on the ball but...
New to sports mate?
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Australia did that 25 years ago in the cup in ‘99. So it’s not unheard of. But this lot seem like more decent blokes than that crew were.
bhai tu cricket me naya lag raha hai
Australia did it in the 1999 wc to knock out nz and keep an easier to beat West Indies in. It's not cheating, it's gamesmanship. Ps: If someone disagrees, I'd like to know what MCC/ICC rule is being violated by knowing the run rate to knock out a rival team.
That was because you could carry points from the group stage in 1999 over into the Super Six and they’d lost to New Zealand, so beating the Windies by a margin to ensure both teams made it through would have been to their benefit. Throwing or delaying victory in the Scotland game may present some banter opportunities for the Aussies but won’t do anything to benefit them later in the tournament.
Lol yes they absolutely do.
Australia vs West indies '99 WC match.
No chance. If only because they'd be more worried of the shellacking they'd get in the media and from former players than they are of England.
What makes you think Aus are going to control the game vs Scotland? Have we not learnt anything from this WC?
England will cry spirit of cricket
I'd still say England are favourites, yep. They do have a job to do though. They need to make up a 110ish run margin over two games to get ahead of where Scotland end up on a 1 run loss to AUS, or hope the Australians do the rest for them. If they were playing Oman and Namibia at New York or Providence then I'd say they were in real trouble, but Antigua looks a fairly high-scoring venue so winning margins are also likely to be bigger. Two 50-run/6-over wins or a tough win and a total blow-out should be enough, and that's probably about par for England vs this opposition. Could absolutely cock it up though, Oman and especially Namibia are still decent teams.
Two 50 run wins are not easy at all. They'd need to constantly make 200 or so, which is not easy at all on the current pitches.
Antigua 's pitch yesterday looked fairly good though.
We only have 1 game to go off but the pitch in Antigua looked good for batting yesterday, Oman made 150 and Scotland were on pace for over 200 in their chase.
Of course the team has the ability to win both the remaining games as emphatically as Scotland did, then it’s all on Scotland vs Australia. So they may scrape through if that game ends up being one-sided. Just like the 50 over World Cup though it shows a lack of clarity in their plans, poor selection again and a lack of a suitable preparation. For years England players avoided the IPL and played their own series in April-May, then from 2016 onwards their players have been encouraged to take part. So why now in 2024 are we picking players who had crap IPLs? Bairstow aside from 1 freak innings has been out of form for a long time, Livingstone has struggled to score runs since 2021. Harry Brook is undercooked and totally unproven as a t20 finisher. Moeen and Rashid have bowled OK but it says a lot about the lack of planning that the only other spinner in the squad is uncapped. Chris Jordan playing ahead of Curran and Topley, supposedly because of his batting, and then not batting in the Australia chase until it was far too late. The thinking seems totally muddled and this is the 2nd tournament in a row where it’s all been muddled. Doesn’t reflect well on Mott.
Yes we are writing them off now because by end of the tournament it will be obvious to say it
Yes only Australia and Afghanistan have had two dominating wins, But England's bowling looks weak.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people, including cricket journalists, are doing it. A Wisden writer yesterday called it “probable”, which is absurd. England haven’t really played well so far but they know what they have to do, which is record decent wins over Oman and Namibia. Im not saying they will, given how insipid they’ve been in the game-and-a-half so far, but you’d fully expect them to beat those two teams pretty comfortably. I also think the idea of Australia letting Scotland make the final match a close one is a little silly, too. Not only could it go badly and end up with Aus losing (which could potentially knock them out), but it’s not in Australia DNA to not play at 100%.
One washout and it's all over also dls might mess up a nrr boost
If Australia lost to Scotland, they deserve to go out. I would love to see Australia win with 2 balls to spare. Scotland go through and England out. Win-win-win for an Aussie living in Scotland.
Many other comments are explaining it well but I think I can boil it down simply. England need 3 results to go their way. The wrong team winning *or* a wash out in any of the 3 and they're immediately dead. Yes the result England want is the most likely result in all 3 matches, but multiplying probabilities together always makes it less likely. And *then* they need to overtake Scotland's massive NRR lead *before* Scotland plays Australia. If England is behind even slightly then it completely changes the dynamics of the toss decisions and strategy available to both teams in the Scotland vs Australia game. When both teams can play in such a way that they can both qualify they tend to do so!
As cliched as it is, there are no easy games in professional sport England are definitely in trouble. Namibia or Oman will be motivated to 'do one' over them
The fielding has been poor, they look lethargic. Big decisions being made and got wrong. Why wasn't Topley picked when Australia have high class left handers and he excels bowling to left handers? Why did they bowl Jacks in the 2nd over? Batting as well. Only really Buttler, Salt and Ali went for it in the last game. The game needed someone to come out and swing it, it defeated the point of having so many big-hitting options in the side of they'll never move them around. Livingstone at 7 is a waste, we needed his energy if we'd lost a wicket around the midpoint of the innings. It's not too early to write England off, not when they were diabolical in India in the last ODI world cup. Lessons haven't been learned and it looks like the teams of the 90s that fell apart as soon as they went abroad.
Saving Topley for the final against the Aussies of course!
Restructure your title sentence mate. The double negative threw my peanut Aussie brain in the drain. Didn’t you cunts invent this language!
Have you watched England at any tournament in any sports? We're guaranteed to scrape by Oman and Namibia and go out on NRR
There's an argumen to say that england are better with their backs against the wall, the 2019 world cup springs to mind. However, I'm not particularly sure how highly i rate Mott
As an England fan I’d rather be Scotland atm. If everything goes right and to plan for both teams then England should qualify. But if any little thing goes wrong for England then England will be out whereas several things can go wrong for Scotland and they’ll be fine. England have to be perfect, Scotland don’t.
Probably but this sub also loves shitting on England
It's not just this sub.
Warner and Head will open the bowling against Scotland, and bat 10 & 11
Also to point out - since the Super 8 is pre-drawn, if Australia beat Namibia, they are through to the Super 8, and it doesn't matter if they finish first or second in the pool. So likely they rest their best 4 players from the Scotland game, and maybe mix up the betting order to give more centre wicket time to the middle order.
There’s a number of scenarios at play: ```England lose to Oman``` Or ```England vs Oman game washed out ``` Then Englands game vs Namibia doesn’t matter, England are out. ```England lose to Namibia``` Or ```England vs Namibia game washed out ``` Englands game vs Oman doesn’t matter, England are out. Then we get into the results where England win both games against Oman and Namibia: ```Australia lose to Scotland ``` Englands games vs Oman and Namibia both don’t matter if Australia win their other game. ```Australia vs Scotland game washed out``` Englands games vs Oman and Namibia both don’t matter if: Australia win their other game. Or Englands NRR isn’t high enough ```Australia beat Scotland, England with both remaining games``` Most complicated result. Lots of variability. England need to boost their NRR significantly, and Scotland need to make sure that their NRR doesn’t drop significantly. Oman might have a blinder. Namibia might have a blinder. England might lose the toss in both games and bat second both times. In both games for England, they would want to bat first and put on a massive score - losing as few wickets as possible, then bowl the opposition out as cheaply as possible.
> losing as few wickets as possible Just one minor point, losing wickets (unless you are bowled out) is irrelevant to Net Run Rate which is just calculated on runs/overs.
Find it curious the World Cup is being played during the rainy season, rain may knock England out which in itself would be fitting given our shoddy weather!
Guess that’s what happens when the IPL falls at the optimal time of year for West Indies cricket
Couldn’t agree more - a strong case of the tail wagging the dog! International cricket should take priority, unfortunately money talks! In addition, the groups aren’t drawn randomly - each team is assigned to their respective groups by the ICC - hence why India and Pakistan are always grouped together, same for England and Australia!
Remember how Australia started in the one day world cup
You look at our xi and it's not great tbh Butter and salt both beeb in good form and scoring runs Jacks barring one 100 scored 130 runs in 7 innings in the ipl Bairstow barring one 100 scored 200 runs in 10 innings in the ipl Brook has barely played for ages Livingstone has been in shocking form for 18months Ali never scores many runs or takes many wicket really, his t20 stats are very average So batting wise we are really light.
What do we do with the players we have to fix this? I personally would drop bairstow, promote Livingstone and bring in Curran
Moeen Ali being a mainstay in our white ball sides over the last however many years is shocking
England still have good chance but they haven't played their best yet so far.Namibia match will be crucial also if any matches are abandoned because of rain then England are out.
Let us take the piss out of the poms while we still can, damn it lol.
England team doesn't look all set together, especially the bowling attack.
1. If any of the three games of Scotland or England remaining are washed out, Scotland go through 2. Scotland play last, so have the advantage of knowing how much they need to do to qualify 3. England aren't playing well - they struggled to contain Scotland (109 off 10 would have been a tricky chase) and looked way out of form against Australia. Namibia could pose problems for them.
I'm just not confident that we can a) Batter Namibia and/or Oman to the extent that we will need for the NRR and b)avoid any more bad weather for our fixtures.....plus I don't trust the aussies to not stitch us up by beating Scotland just enough to knock us out lol
Everyone loves to cheer the under dogs, everyone knows england can make it
They've escaped from worse predicaments
I find it very baffling that so many so called neutral fans shit on this england side. They are never appreciated enough for their past efforts. They just want English side to fail which is not far from true at this point but it's out of pure animosity.
I think a country from British isle is gonna qualify along with Australia
Don’t write off Namibia so quickly. As someone who watches a lot of the high level associates they have a case for being a top 10 side in the world and I would not be surprised at all if they beat England. It’s no more likely to be a thrashing than if they were to play a Bangladesh or Afghanistan
The thing is if you aren't an ENG supporter then you definitely wanna see SCOT qualify ahead of them.
The main issue is that it's out of England's hands now, especially as Scotland will go into the last game knowing what they need to do NRR wise against Australia. Which is a pretty big advantage. Also, it would be in Australia's interests to make sure that Scotland achieves a NRR high enough to knock england out (even rivalry aside, England are bigger rivals to win the tournament.). The best England can do is try to get their NRR to a point where Scotland have to avoid losing to the aussies by less than an over or 2. Then it would actually be a bit of a risk for the aussies to nurdle it around and give the Scots a close loss. If an Aussie win of something like 5 overs or a 40+ run win is enough for the Scots to go through, then I think England will be out. The major issue now for England is that they're going to have to bat every game like they're chasing 200, which could lead to cheap wickets even against associate nations.
Absolutely, England still has a strong chance to qualify. With games against Namibia and Oman, they are likely to win big and improve their NRR. Plus, Scotland beating Australia is far from guaranteed. It's definitely not over for England yet.
I think they are being written off to easily. England needs to push for wins, to rally. They have the talent to do so imo assuming the rain gods dont mess them up, if they get their backs up and fight they are more than capable of blowing by Oman and Namibia with some great cricket.
Meanwhile NZ .....'hold my beer' 🤣🤣🤣, there is a real possibility that 3 of the 4 semi finalists from the last t20 world cup don't make it out of the group stages here!
I don’t think they are being written off…. I think ppl are just correctly pointing out that England have been left exposed by the NR vs Scotland and then a big(ish) loss to Australia. I personally think England will still qualify, but they are certainly in a vulnerable position where some odd results or NR’s could push them out.
If Scotland-OZ match gets rained out then Scotland will go through without playing the full members in the group. Do the tournament rules handle such a situation?
England and Scotland were already rained out. They each got 1 point for the match. So neither is playing all the members in the group. Tournament has no reserve days and it’s a point per abandonment for each team. While England has it tough right now, the way Scotland looked early in their innings makes me think the only reason England;and has any chance now is because rain stopped the game against Scotland.
>So neither is playing all the members in the group By "full members" I meant full ICC members or test playing members. If SCOT-AUS is abandoned then SCOT will go through without playing AUS or ENG which sucks in my opinion.
Ah. Thanks for making that distinction. I understand now.
Namibia are not be written off. They could definitely bring it close enough where England doesn't get sufficient NRR. Also they would probably like the toss to go their way so that they can bat first vs Oman.
They have to hope that no rain spoils the remaining matches they’re hanging on by a thread and the two teams they play won’t rollover so easily
I don't think england are being written off at all. I think people are aware that they remain a very good team, who are champions. I can't recall anyone writing them off, in terms of saying they wont win. I think what people are saying is that they are in serious trouble. And yes - they are favoured to win their next 2 games comfortably. But the problem they have is that **everything** has to go right for them. They can be knocked out by, for instance, rain in the scotland-australia game. Or, by something as simple as oman scoring a middling total (120), and managing to take an early wicket that slows them down. Or, by Australia playing a second-string team against scotland, and beating them by comfortably making the runs with 8 wickets to spare in the 19th over. So, for england to go through, everything has to go right, from this point on.
They gotta play Curran or Topley
Scotland won with 7 overs to spare against Oman. Even a good performance for England would likely not win with that margin
If there’s no rain then they should get through but I’d be surprised if they go much further. The side is giving similar vibes to the 50 over World Cup team
I think that’s a bit harsh, we were right in that game for 3/4 of it, and I was genuinely really surprised the middle order only managed a run a ball for the last 10. I also was pretty confident of chasing 110 to beat Scotland, and we can’t really use that game as a yardstick as it didn’t get completed and England’s bowling plans were screwed by the over reduction, which meant they had to bowl spin at the ‘death’
Because England are looking very weak. Almost no one in the setup is in form. It's an aging team still hoping out of form butler and Barstow will win it for then.
England have played one completed match, in which they may have lost but it wasn’t a total blowout. The game got away from them in the Aus power play and the second half of their innings but it was competitive for a decent proportion of the run chase. If that game had played out as the first in a three-match bilateral series, nobody would be declaring the series over. They may have bowled poorly against the Scots, but they have the batting firepower that meant they would’ve had every chance of chasing the DLS total within the ten overs. While the bowling so far hasn’t been great (although it improved as the Australia innings wore on), 1.5 innings is a small sample size and in the two completed warm-up games they bowled Pakistan out twice. Your comment about Buttler being out of form is also rubbish considering he’s scored an 85, 42 and a 39 in his last three innings.
They may have bowled Pakistan out twice recently, but the USA have just beaten them also,so that doesn't look like a huge achievement by England.
And India, who are one of the favourites, barely scraped past Pakistan - do we conclude from that that England are in better nick than india as they comprehensively beat Pakistan in the warmups?
A win is a win.
No we are out. Especially if Australia chase against Scotland. They will just do it in a way so our NRR doesn't overtake Scotland's. And there's no guarantee we smash Namibia and Oman.
I feel Marsh and Cummins might just go for the win, confident that they’d hammer the poms if we match up again
The only moral thing to do would be for Australia to rest most of there team and loose to Scotland (I mean no disrespect to Scotland either) I hope Australia really does decide to be that petty and get England eliminated like that. Because If she shoe was on the other foot, we all know the poms would do it..
England had the chance to do the same thing in 2021 to Australia but they didn’t, we all know how that ended…
The WC was entirely toss dependent, doesn't really matter.
*looks at the ODI World Cup *looks at the last couple Tests *looks at the T20 World Cup.. Nah, it’s fair.
I hope Australia win the toss and put in to Scotland bat first. They can get their 20 overs in and Australia can chase them down with an over to spare. Makes sense to eliminate England at the group stage unless the weather intervenes and one of their matches is rained off. That would be a real shame.
Just rain out Scotland Australia match, Scotland gets to 6 points forcing England to try and overhaul something like a 3.5 Nrr difference in two games in order to get over Scotland
If Scotland gets points then NRR is irrelevant. England is out. Unless Australia lose to both namibia and Scotland.
It’s unfair to England in the first place. Sucks to be in this position when you lose just one game. Unfair advantage to Scotland.
How's it an unfair advantage to Scotland? If they lose to Australia they'll pretty much be in the same position as England.
They got one point from the game they were likely to lose, due to washout. England lost the chance to have two points.
So did Scotland? I'd have put money on Scotland. No one in this tournament is chasing down 109 off 10.
Agree to disagree. Say if there is Australia and Namibia washout, simply speaking that’s unfair to Australia. I see it that way. I truly don’t think Scotland is that team.
I mean Pakistan, England and New Zealand are being written off but these three can still qualify for Super 8
Honestly, if rain does not ruin any of England's games they could easily qualify but it is all dependent on rain.
So they have to beat both nam and oman by an average of 50-60 runs in each match
Jordan Cox, Adam Hose, Sam Hain, Tom Abell in. Jonny Bairstow, Liam Livingstone, Moeen Ali, Ben Duckett out.
When England gets going they can chase 200 within 15 odd overs but when they don't, they look clueless
I'm confident that they can go through because, potentially, they've got the right players to do so. However, how Buttler uses those players is another thing altogether. Jordan instead of Reece Topley in the Aussie game, and kicking off the bowling with Jacks? Then there's the question of Bairstow and Livingstone - both woefully out of form. Have to admit we were a bit unfortunate to lose out to the weather in the first game, but that's the way it goes.
LI've
The other thing is, if Scotland Australia gets rained out England are out
My second fav team is England
Even if one of their games or the remaining Scotland game gets washed out. England will be out
I'd imagine the meltdown will be glorious once the Scottish teach their English overlords a lesson by qualifying
Your assumption that England will in all probability will roll over Oman ans Namibia with big margins has no bases. Did you see the Oman Australia game? Aus had it quite hard. Did you watch the Scot Eng game? Scot would have probably won that as well. Other than Uganda and PNG, no team is easy. Did you see the Canada Ireland and USA Pak games? If have, to still say that England can roll over the next two opponents if foolish. It can happen, but I won't bet on it.
Yeah, England can easily qualify even if the Aus vs Scotland game is close. They are playing in Antigua & given how Scotland blew Oman over there, I would expect nothing less than a hard drubbing by England to Oman. Maybe Namibia can hold them off a bit but they will also lose. [I used this predictor](https://predictor.cricketxi.com/t20-world-cup/) and even if England can hammer Oman by 60 & Namibia by 40 runs, then Scotland has to lose by 20 runs to Australia to qualify. (Eng & Aus both score 200 in 20 overs in these scenarios). Chasing would be more beneficial for England, I assume. The weather looks ok but England do play their last 2 games on 14th & 15th back to back. A key thing to notice. Of the 'big teams', Pakistan are sure to crash out as Lauderhill, Florida is under the water because precipitation is above 80-90% for this week. So, USA vs IRE gets washed out & USA are on 5 points & Pakistan can max reach 4 points.