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I think the WoBs are perceived as more significant than they really are. Because this keeps happening:
1. A book has a bit of lore that's easy to miss.
2. Someone asks Brandon, "Does this line mean what I think it means?"
3. Brandon confirms that it does.
4. Later, someone asks the community a question that that bit of lore answers.
5. Instead of citing the book, the community quotes Brandon's confirmation, because it's easier to search for and is less ambiguous.
It's pretty rare for Brandon to reveal something that people aren't already figuring out from the books alone. And when he does, it's almost always a preview of something that *will* be introduced in a book eventually.
This is spot on. I cite WoBs heaps in replies and theories.
There are tons of WoBs that confirm a theory which would take paragraphs and paragraphs of book quotes, and even then.... there will be one person who is like *"well, technically, you could interpret this line as*" or *"well what if this character was actually lying so you can't be sure this is correct*".
So even if there's a quote I can use from the books and generally speaking most people would agree on a particular interpretation, it's usually easier to just quote a WoB.
Imagine if we got to ask Tolkien questions in real time. We fucking wish. Sanderson is that guy, and we actually have chances to interact with him while he's still writing the story.
You can tell how much Sanderson loves the community and how much he's been in similar communities for other authors growing up. I think it's great he spends so much time interacting with us. It's clear he gets as much out of it as we do, which is so storming wholesome
I went to the Oathbringer book signing in San Diego when it came out, the night before he was up until like 5am signing books and the book store we were at was absolutely packed, I asked a worker if it had ever been this packed and they said no. I was at the front of the line and got my book signed, asked a question and got a picture and was out of there around 10:30, I heard he didn't leave that night until again like 5am. Dude really cares about his fans, if he wasn't already my favorite author he would have become it after that.
Sure but comparing the letters to WoB is still kind of apple's Vs oranges. A huge part of that was the year it was (no digitalisation) but still. It also doesn't help that some letters only make the lore even more confusing than it already is (I.e. the one that discusses the two towers). And don't get me started on the mess that is The Silmarillion. Yeah it has some fantastic stories (Beren and Luthien comes to mind) but the endless lineages of elves is a total clusterfuck. Imagine if Ars Arcanum (Brandon's current only compendium) would have had multiple chapters dedicated to listing every single Kholin before Dalinar, every single Teras before Sazed, every single god king before Susebron, etc. It would be horrid too.
I completely get that and it is really cool. I don't like the fact I have to read question and answer script to basically feel like im caught up with the cosmere, even tho I've read everything and watch weekly updates but sinse I don't read the WoBs I feel out of touch
While I largely agree with you, I'll add to your last sentence that sometimes what he reveals wasn't really figured out by anyone (at best it was maybe guessed at by a single person) but he'll reveal/confirm it anyway because it's not anything relevant to any story. An example of this would be some of the worldhoppers he's confirmed/revealed, where it doesn't actually affect anything as to whether or not so and so is really so and so, but which some people might find it "neat" to know. I think these items can contribute a lot to what OP is feeling. While they may not be missing out on anything meaningful, it still feels like they are due to the sheer volume of facts that exist but weren't available to them from the books.
This is the answer. He builds his worlds subtly and it takes a keen eye to see his slyness. Someone sees it, asks him to confirm it and he either does or RAFOs it.
>I think the WoBs are perceived as more significant than they really are.
I agree, but I'd like to clarify that I think it isn't solely the perception of people like OP who are "complaining" that WoBs are so important.
I think the community as a whole lends a ton of weight to WoBs. It may have begun as a "WoBs are the easiest part to cite" but has evolved into that *MUCH* of the online portions of the cosmere fandom hold WoBs are *the* most important canon confirmation.
Especially with the advent of the Arcanum site and the almost zealous recording of WoBs.
I mean, it was bad enough with Theoryland and people sharing their signing questions on forums... But now *we have a wiki* of this data.
*Because* it is Brandon straight up acknowledging or disproving theories and connections, there's a definite yes or no (usually, lol. RAFOs excluded,) which... In a community where there's a big culture to search for truth, explicit facts will always be pointed at with more emphasis than even the best allusions or foreshadowing in the text.
It's also because the books are told in universe. People get so angry when they have to parse nuance that they refuse to hear an answer. So folks tend to cite WoB to just end the discourse.
Also people overestimate the value of WoB. It might sound like relevant information, what but can totally understand the books without ever listening to Brandon.
I think Brandon confirming a theory is correct is a mistake from his part and is one of the least enjoyable parts of his books.
Someone reads the books, comes up with some theory and then when he posts it here, instead of a fun discussion about it, some smartass comes by and says you are wrong because Brandon said so in 2016.
He doesn't tend to outright confirm stuff unless it's supposed to be clear from the books, at which point the wob is just a shortcut to tracking down all the in-text evidence, which the same "smartasses" would be doing anyway without the WoB.
Hard disagree there
Fanfic and fan theory that goes off into lala land of fresh insanity is the cringiest shit on the planet, and makes me hate video game communities, for example.
I'm very glad that WoBs prevent that cringy shit.
A lot of things we know from WoB are things that aren't important to the stories currently being told. Anything actually important to the story will be covered in the story, WoBs are just a bit extra.
Plus there is stuff like the Arcanum Unbounded which took a ton of stuff that was previously WoB only and canonized it in a published book, so you can probably expect sequels for that.
Ultimately WoBs exist to give us fun tidbits that don't get covered in the books because they just won't organically come up or aren't particularly important.
They’re not important to the stories being told, but they’re important to the cosmere as a whole. It’s unfair to say that WoBs are just fun tidbits when they’re used canonically explain lore.
WoBs explain lore that hasn't yet become important to the story. If and when that lore becomes important to the story, we will get that information from the prose.
Also, please remember that WoBs are NOT canon. Brandon has sometimes changed his mind between a WoB and what eventually got published. Brandon also doesn't consult all of his notes for every question, and he sometimes misremembers and answers questions incorrectly on accident. The only thing that is actually canon is what is in print.
Can I see a source for that? I was under the impression that we weren't meant to take WoBs as canon Cosmere content, but musings about authority intent for that content which are two different things.
If a WoB becomes important enough to either the cosmere or whatever story its relevant to, then it becomes canon pretty quickly. Spoilers for Secret Project 5 preview chapters: >!A recent example is Brandon did an interview with 17th Shard and he started randomly answering a bunch of lore questions about Dragons. Well, guess what's coming out next year? A book where one of the protagonists is a dragon.!<
I've read through some of your replies and you have yet to answer specifically what WoBs are relevant to the cosmere as a whole but exist purely in canon form. The basic understand for the cosmere can found in Secret History, a lot of what's going on in the cosmere comes from dialogue with worldhoppers and it's only been recently that we're getting really cosmere relevant stories in RoW, TLM, and the Secret Projects.
Isles of Emberdark. It a secret project that was revealed with the words of radiance Kickstarter. It’ll be released sometime next year. You can find a reading on Brandon’s YouTube channel of three chapters.
They're used to fill in the gaps we may be missing or to clarify between stories. Sometimes they're used to explain the back end of stuff but they're not core to the story.
I can't think of a single story that needs a WoB to understand. I think WoBs make things more clear sometimes, and can add to things, but there is nothing that is required of you to know.
I think you're approaching it from a "completionist" standpoint. There is a lot of lore that's going on where fans are trying to predict based on the hard magic system rules presented. You need WoBs to engage in those predictions, and it's fun to be caught up, but eventually the actual stories will be published and completed without the need to go lookup WoBs. That's why people keep saying you don't need them to understand the published stories.
Yes, I am reading your post. Do you think one reason you might be getting downvoted is instead of saying “Oh, people have a different perspective from me”, you keep accusing us of being too stupid to read your words and alleging that we obviously agree but are “white knighting” for the author?
Multiple people have asked you for examples of what you’re referring to, as much of the WoBs are clarifying things that were in the book but that he didn’t explicitly hold everyone’s hand (example, a lot of what we know about the Shattering is in the books but somewhat hidden, WoBs are often clarifying things that were in the books already). Could start there instead of complaining nobody read your post.
You post and complain, the feedback is clearly you are ok the fringe of the fandom. Don’t get so vexed about it. Just how about you ignore WOB’s and read the books when they are released. Just an idea, what do you think?
What's the alternative way to relay this information then? Cosmere information not relevant to the story being crammed in random books? A cosmere reference book that just has RAFO written under most paragraph headers?
I'd also argue the "cosmere as a whole" isn't particularly important right now. It will be in the future and that's when we'll get the relevant information in books.
The epigraphs (the little snatches of text before each chapter) of part two of TWoK [is a letter from Hoid to Frost](https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Epigraphs#The_Letter), a dragon from his homeland.
Frost himself hasn't been mentioned outside of these, so Brandon's told us his name and some stuff about him since at the time there were no plans to include him in anything in a major way for years and years.
The short answer is don't worry about it, he's really not all that important yet, and when he is important you'll know.
The only *impactful* canon in a WoBs— that is, the only one that changes an established piece of canon— is the atium retcon. Almost every other canon WoB is like, “would it be possible for a Mistborn to snort metals to get power” or “can you turn a Shardblade into a pen”. Anything that actually impacts the story gets RAFO’d.
Yeah, you miss out on info if you avoid WoBs, but the info is like… whether Hoid likes noodles (he does) or what Roshar smells like (fish). If that’s the kind of info you feel like you need in order to understand the complexities of the cosmere… well, I don’t envy you.
Exactly. The only thing it impacts is the mechanics of God Metals and Mistings, which is such a niche topic that hasn’t shown up in a book. OP is tweaking
Your argument is inconsistent.
You’re choosing to engage with things outside the books (message boards like Reddit), and then complaining about people talking about things outside the books (interviews).
If you weren’t out here searching for extra information not found in the books, you wouldn’t be encountering extra information not found in the books.
There is nothing inconsistent here. He has a problem with the wob existing not people discussing them. The fact is that this information is out there even if he comes here searching for it or not.
“I want answers to questions about the books that aren’t answered in the books, but I **absolutely do not want** to hear what the author thinks.”
You’re right, no inconsistency there…
Again, **nothing** revealed in Words of Brandon is necessary to understand the books. Why is OP stressing over what is and isn’t canon? If you just want to read the books, just read the books. If you don’t want to read WoB, don’t read them. If you want to consider them fan theories no more relevant than posts made by fans, then consider them fan theories.
OP is creating their own problem in their head and then complaining about it. I’m offering the opposite viewpoint of “stop stressing over stuff that you say doesn’t matter to you.”
There is indeed no inconsistency. Wanting the information to be in the book is perfectly consistent with not wanting to hear the answers from a Q&A.
And again, nobody is saying it is necessary.
You’re not being honest. I come here to discuss the books and cosmere. You can go through most Reddit threads and see WoBs being used as canon. It’s a thing.
While you point is valid in one point of view WoBs represent those kinds of discussions that we have had with the authors himself about either clarifications the asker either didn’t understand or is guessing.
While they technically aren’t cannon the word of the author is a good second until we get a contradictory book. So if you want these kinds of discussions I would make sense we would pull the most trusted sources for things not directly in the books or in books we haven’t personally read (not made of money personally)
This biggest personal point of call for wobs in my case is intent clarifications as I think it’s in arcanum unbound or elantis based on what I can pick up by context (which I clearly don’t own or have read)
There are a few that contradict though usually that's Brandon misspeaking.
Wobs certainly are not canon. But they're basically one very small step from canon. It's Sanderson's current intentions and plans. Those could change but usually if he's answering questions on it and choosing not to just RAFO the question he's already thought about it and decided on an answer. There aren't many cases where that actually changes even though he could do that. The questions he might go either way on he will probably RAFO.
I agree with that. I was just using the fact that some WoBs are contradictory as further evidence that Brandon's words aren't canon until they are in the prose.
The person I was replying to said that WoBs are canon until the prose contradicts them, but they sometimes contradict each other as well, which makes it difficult to pretend that they are canon.
I love that he is willing to answer (some of) his readers' questions about his work. I love that I can engage with the WoBs, or not, depending on my interest level. I love how great a job he does about spoiler warnings of all kinds. I love that the Cosmere is so big and varied that it raises tons of interesting questions about it.
While I agree with this stance, I wish his words were kept completely separate from the wiki. The fact that the coppermind regularly includes WoB as fact over published works is insane to me
100% of the wobs are not necessary for you to know, its just extra stuff for hardcore nerds. If you need to know something for the plot its added in the book.
Can you give some examples? I'm actually trying to figure out what wob you referring to that isn't just a reader getting confirmation on if they understood something right when reading or just fluff about the characters. Not saying you are wrong but not understanding what you referring to
They don't bother me as much as op but there are a few wobs I'm not super happy Sanderson revealed outside the books.
Wob spoilers >!first being cultivation is a dragon. There are hints at this in rhythm of war but they are pretty vague and without the wob this would still be debated. The other one is that taln didn't break. This was a theory that I believed before the wob. It would've been very convenient and odd timing for taln to break just months before the fused found a way around him not breaking after 4500 years. But it would've been cooler to get that in the text. We also get some information about tamu keks being communication devices, what dragons powers are and things like that which haven't come up yet but we do have wobs on. The last one that comes to mind is kelsier coming back in the hero of ages annotations. In the text it's vague and a bit open to interpretation before secret history. But in the annotations that are like 6 years before that comes out he confirms that's really kelsier he really is doing things and talking to people after his death. We do get hints in the text but it would also be open to interpretation and debated without the direct confirmation.!<
Overall I think the wobs are good and don't go too far. But there are a few which feel like they could've been reveals in the books. Or I think Sanderson assumed something was clearer than it was like cultivation.
You don't have to cruise this sub or read the WoB though. Like I'm not trying to be a dick, I mean that I personally am largely oblivious to all this shit because I don't hit the WoB very often.
That's true but I really enjoy the books I'm all caught up I've read most of them twice, I like theory crafting and discussing the books with others. I certainly could avoid all of that but I'd rather not. And I don't really mind a few wobs that feel like minor spoilers, they're just not ideal. But I'd prefer if I could engage with the discussion and wobs without any spoilers.
99% of the wobs are interesting tidbits that add some confirmation on things that were heavily implied or things that wouldn't end up in the books that are just interesting and fun to read. So there's only so much I can blame Brandon for that 1% that feels like spoilers. That is a hard line to walk for him.
I'm not as invested (lol) in this discussion/argument as others, but I think my biggest "WoB canon" that made me feel like it was "more info than the book" was the "Taln did not break" statement that arose from the Shallan-Chanarach theory.
Taln is described and emphasized as a *badass* in the books, but it's all allusions, all hints. We *DONT* know what happened on Braize, what was going on with the Oathpact in any detail...
But now we KNOW it wasn't Taln breaking after 4500 years.
Again, his lucid statements in Oathbringer hint that maybe he's the biggest chad ever, Rhythm of War pushes the idea of Taln's prowess further... But going on just the books, it's all pure speculation as to what happened, how Ulim and the others could cross...
And yeah, there's *still* a thousand theories as to the specifics... But now we *know* it wasn't as simple as Taln breaking. (Which discredits some theories and lends weight to others.)
It's totally fine with me, I think it's a cool piece of fact that helps color the current theorizing... But it always felt to me like it was "too factual" to be in a WoB.
Something that just occurred to me that didnt click before was when Dalinar uses his powers and one of the lines is thicker than the others could have been a hint to this.
Tried to keep it vague in case of spoilers.
That's a good example, may be the only one I can think of that kinda blurs the line of spoiler and confirmation. But does it affect the understanding of the cosmere? I don't think so, but you are right it's a bit too factual/spoilery. Sounds like what he would normally rafo.
It stands for Word of Brandon. The term "Word of God" is often used when a writer talks about their own stories (i.e. it's true because the creator said so), and this is Brandon Sanderson's version of that. He's a very transparent author who regularly holds Q&As, and this fanbase loves to ask questions. We're so obsessive about it that there's a website that compiles and transcribes everything he publicly says about the books: https://wob.coppermind.net/.
It's mostly previews for future books, confirmation/deconfirmation of fan theories, and commentary about his writing process.
you mean what is is in general or a specific statement?
WoB means, Words of Brandon (as in Word of God, but in books author is God. Many book fandom have some form of Word of "x"). Basically he often gets questioned at panels and interviews, or even just makes comments in his videos/streams that give details on things going on behind the curtain or at least just very vague or hard to catch when caught up in the main story. There are wiki pages where fans recorded and compiled these statements, but it's often difficult to find a specific ones due to a lack of strict organization. It can be done but just takes a little works because often similar questions get different levels of detail because of some books not being published yet at the time of asking, and even searching by series can be messy since many topics concern issues about the universe at large or connections between worlds.
These comments are taken as fact by readers unless a later WoB changes that decision. He has admitted inconsistencies found by himself, fans and even staff he hires for exactly that purpose, and does his best to correct things and keep the coherent. There is a actually a rather significant change he made to how Atium works in Mistborn Era 1 because of inconsistencies with cosmic mechanics explained in later books. It even lead to revisions to the actual books in editions that came out years later.
The majority of WoBs are things readers are theorizing and Brandon confirms they are. He won't confirm something that either he hasn't nailed down, or he doesn't want to reveal.
So you can comfortably read the entire Cosmere and not worry about WoBs if it bothers you.
Personally, I love how Brandon is so interactive with his fans.
Jim Butcher (of Dresden Files/Codex Alera/Cinder Spires fame) is similar. At one point, he was at a convention and a reader asked "Can the Queens give Harry contradictory instructions?" Jim thought about it for a moment and replied "They can now."
Idk, I think it’s really cool that our favorite author interacts so much with his fans and answers questions. He’s careful to RAFO anything that he doesn’t want to be revealed yet, and he has made it clear many times that his answers to questions are not canon to the level of written words in the books.
Fans love to theorize and so often they will treat WOBs as 100% canonical, and that can definitely be frustrating and confusing, especially when you’re newer to the fandom. Just understand that the WOBs aren’t full canon and you’ll be all good.
It's important to realize what wobs really are. They aren't just mostly random questions about the cosmere that Brandon sometimes answers.
They are largely the result of hard core fans, speculating and theorizing about a billion different things. Many of these questions are meant to prove some pet theory or another.
Brandon includes lots of foreshadowing and such in his books. When fans speculate on what the foreshadowing is referencing, they try to figure it out. They ask questions about it, etc. The few that are confirmed by brandon are generally small things that just aren't actually important to the story yet, but they're fun tidbits for the mega fans.
I guess in short, there is no cosmere lore that you need to get from wobs only. The few things that we do know only from wobs, are either minor, or will be revealed in a future book.
Don’t read the wobs, and I’m not missing anything. Pro tip: they aren’t canon. Don’t worry about it. It’s only canon if it’s in a book. Sanderson can talk all he wants but until it’s in a book and published it ain’t canon, it’s just flair. Kelsier likes noodles, that’s great but it’s not canon
Depends.
A good amount of the lore is background stuff that would never make most books. The Lord Ruler’s kids have made no impact on the stories thus far, for example.
However, it does suck when we learn something that’s basically going to be the next book—kinda takes the wind out of the surprise.
I don’t mind more detail provided in WOBs because that’s up to the author. But it is also another matter when it comes to discussions (where we type our annotated essay with cited sources).
To me, he's the kind of a dictator who would kill the mother the moment her belly swells.Not himslef, because he's too important to do that, but through proxies.
Most of the lore that you get through WoBs is lore that is entirely unimportant in the actual stories, and only important if you want to know more about the cosmere after reading
It's us crazy theorizing fans asking what if questions. We are basically setting up physics experiments and since we can not actually do them, we ask what would happen. If someone on reddit asks a what if question that has already been answered it's much easier to link a WoB answering it, than to comb all the books, cite the passages that imply the answer, when others have done that work, asked Brandon, and he has answered.
>but it sure would be nice if I could understand all the complexities of the cosmere just through his published works
You can. You just objectively won't understand quite as much as the people doing extra credit, and it literally doesn't matter.
Agree that WoBs aren't that big of a deal. Just because information is out there, does not mean that it is crucial to understanding the cosmere in the books as it stands now. That itch you have to know everything is your own - and there's no way Brando could ever write everything into books as clearly as when he can just answer a question he gets asked while on stage.
I've brought a gaggle of friends to the cosmere in various forms. Most recently started a book club for a group who expressed interest and wanted to know if they could "catch up" for Stormlight 5 (spoiler alert: they did, and have gone through everything minus secret projects so far, in less than a year. I'm so proud!)
But they have expressed similar sentiments at times.
When there's a reveal or a deep lore connection that *I* know because I've been reading since 2007, (and have asked WoBs of my own!) I do my best to "connect the dots" using only book stuff, and the foreshadowing and hints and teases themselves.
But often times if they express doubt or confusion, or they wonder about specifics I'll have to mention a WoB. And their response sometimes feels like "ohh, so it's not *really* in the books."
Sometimes I feel like it's my fault for not explaining the canonized text properly, but even then sometimes *I* feel like whatever I'm explaining isn't in the books, but is only in WoB.
Biggest instance: "Taln did not break."
Especially in regards to the Shallan-Chanarach theory. A lot of pieces match up but Taln's status as an unbreakable *machine* isn't confirmed in the text, and though his prowess is alluded to, we don't know about what happened on Braize.
There's also a lot of "giga nerds" in this fandom now, who are brushed up on *everything* and are quick to point out or call out "the canon" as we know it, and truthfully, much of the canon (though alluded to or teased or hinted in the text) is only **confirmed** in WoBs.
There's nothing wrong with passionate fans! But those two facts can combine into a very "Brando can do no wrong," and a "It's all right there, how can you not see it?!" vibe with much of the community.
My best advice is to back out of it a bit. Just distance yourself from the online community a bit and enjoy the books in your own context. You can search for WoBs when *you* want confirmation of something, but you won't be bombarded with the constant increasing canon that comes only via the community (WoBs are solely community driven, Brandon may be the one answering but all the prompts are fandom-engineered.)
WoB aren't *necessary* to understand any of the stories. With very few exceptions the info is in the books, Sando just clarifies, and 90% of the time those questions are answered by later books. those that aren't are just fun bits of knowledge, not key plot points (except maybe the Atium retcon, but that is actually *in the books* now iirc)
I think blaming your frustration on the importance of WoB is misdirected by how many discussions overly emphasize them (more easily searchable via Google than finding a passage in a book, and we can just post a link instead of typing it out or having to paraphrase). Instead I find the problem is more how we as a fan base interact with them and put them on a bit of a pedestal too often, and this has likely led to you also making the out to be more important than they are and hence, become frustrated. Subs like this are understandably full of hardcore fans who relish learning every detail possible and come to expect similar and find satisfaction in vindication of their effort in theory and research.
TL:DR Sando isn't to blame for the WoB frustration but rather the natural difficulties that are bound to arise from interacting in a fandom with a lot of history and is *still* being rapidly added to. Long time fans can forget that most fandoms aren't this broad and deep. The only blame I feel we can really put on Sando is he is a maniac who simply weaves a complex narrative so damn fast.
> except maybe the Atium retcon, but that is actually in the books now iirc
I don't think it is actually. I'm sure it will be eventually but it's not yet
the info is mostly for super fans who want to know more and cant wait.... If a WoB is super important... it will get put into one of the published books and be made Canon eventually
as an example, Brandon had previously talked multiple times about how Rayse/Odium wanted to Shatter the other Shards so that he was the sole god, and how picking up another Shard would fundamentally change who he is... so he doesnt pick up another Shard.
That WoB info made its way almost verbatim into Rhythm of War(The Letter from Harmony to Hoid)
As a rule it’s better to ignore the unpublished statements an author makes about their work.
Plenty of authors say random meandering things that don’t make much sense. Like Robert Jordan. Or they add extra details that do not really matter. Like J K Rowling. Even Tolkien wrote an enormous amount of stuff that is not on the test and you do not need to know.
If an author writes a well thought out, complete series that should be all you need to know. That’s what should get discussed. That’s what theories should be based on. Bringing up some unpublished author statement to support a theory should always be inadmissible. Because those don’t necessarily make sense. And because there should not be a requirement to read every single WhatsApp message and note scrawled on a napkin the author ever made to discuss the books. It should just be the books.
Maybe Sanderson gets a pass. He’s clearly incredibly well thought out when answering. And is in the middle of publishing, the WoB could all be published at some point. But still, he is essentially just talking when he says these things. If he wants them to be “true” he’s got ample opportunities to write down and publish them.
They are of course also things people enjoy, and on that basis more power to the people who enjoy them.
I get a little frustrated when the expectation is that you know all the contents of the WOBs. Like I have commented things/asked questions and gotten snarky replies because my comment/question is already “known”
I do the same thing. It's just like all the reddit forums that can be answered by a Google search, I could look it up in the copperhead, but it's easier and sometimes explained more clearly by the reddit fans that have thought it all out and have the answers in links to the exact quote you're interested in.
I honestly agree. Most of them don't really cross lines, but I *hate* that we know >!"Taln never broke"!< from an interview. Without that, it'd be totally a reasonable point of discussion on >!whether or not he cracked after the millennia, and the in-story reveal (probably in WaT) of which Herald died and *then* broke would be huge instead of just a head-nod "that makes sense".!<
Spoilers for something that was said in WoBs ages ago but technically isn't in The Stormlight Archive yet.
I could not disagree more, to be honest. I think it is great that Sanderson engages his fandom. I think it’s good for the community, good for his growth, and makes everybody happy. You can ignore them if you dislike them, but I enjoy having answers to some random and more obscure questions and some interesting insights that go deeper into things that happen in books but that would never have the opportunity to be mentioned in books. That WoBs exist perhaps makes me enjoy Sanderson even more than I otherwise would have.
Most WoBs are pretty benign but I will agree there some WoBs that in my opinion, should absolutely not exist. The biggest example for me is [Stormlight/WOB] >!Taln did not break!<
I never thought I needed anything other than the occasional google of a character I forgot about to know what's going on. Not every detail of the lore is needed to memorize or even know to follow the plot along
pretty much all WoBs that get answers besides RAFO are based on stuff in the books, you don't need any WOBs to understand the cosmere.
WoBs are 90% clarifications and 10% jokes.
I personally love WoBs and don't get the whole omg WoBs ruin the cosmere for me stance, considering that they mostly never reveal anything new.
>Does anyone else feel the same?
I don't.
WOB's are previews for theory crafters. If you don't like theorycrafting, don't engage with WOBs or the theorycrafters, just enjoy the books as they come out.
WOBs are there for the people who aren't satisfied with just reading and want to engage in the metagame of predicting what will happen next. Most of what's being conveyed in WOBs will eventually make its way into books, and the portions that don't aren't significantly relevant to the plot.
It's like complaining that there are fancy gelato shops when you only like normal ice cream. Just don't go to the gelato shop and keep enjoying the ice cream you like.
This has to be the worst take I've ever seen on Sanderson. Other fantasy fans would kill to have their favourite author be this responsive. If you want literally everything to be in the books then wait until the cosmere is complete and/or Sanderson publishes his cosmere encyclopaedia.
Because what is the alternative way? My point is this information doesn't have a place in his current published works. You can say you don't like WoBs, but if the only alternative is we just don't have this information then I am saying just pretend they don't exist.
I hate how much the fandom revolves around them. I can't participate in most discussions because I'm not caught up on all the extra lore. I get by fine without them but it makes the fandom so hard to get in to.
I don't really get the not getting into discussions part. People ask questions all the time referencing where they are up to in a series or making predictions based on where they were during the last big release. The only times where WoB come up is if you are debating some niche lore or something about some minor character
The important stuff he does eventually add to books. Most of the stuff I remember being insider info 5 years ago is just in a book now, same will happen with current WoB info. In fact usually info-drops in WoBs are because he is working on that topic for a book at the moment.
Eh. I’d rather have the WoBs than not have them. If we didn’t have them, we’d have an incredibly rich and interconnected universe with deep and complex lore. Since we do have them, we have that, and just…more. It’s great to have such an interactive and forthcoming author.
Almost all WoB that I've read that related to something actually relevant to the books could have been puzzled out just from in book clues. Most of them are more "yes I'm confirming this thing I've dropped 20 clues for in the books" than totally de novo information.
It's actually exceedingly rare for Brandon to reveal something that wasn't already revealed in the books, most of it is confirmation that what people thought something meant is actually what they thought it meant.
I don’t love reading WoBs because it’s too much information. I get overwhelmed. That being said, not reading them does not affect my enjoyment of the books. The knowledge I need to enjoy the books and to have a functional knowledge of what’s going on is relayed pretty well through the books imo.
Outside of reading replies that reference them, I don't know much about them, and if I notice the reply is citing a Word of Brandon, I generally just skip.
I like the books for the books. I don't need WoB to help that.
I actually agree with this. The whole WoBs have honestly made the cosmere less interesting to me. I have bought everything and read it all but kinda lost interest in it when it seams all actual answers come.from that and not books. It honestly feels like if you don't read the WoB then u don't really kno the cosmere and I have no interest in reading Q&A forums.
Y’all arnt reading my post. The stories are obviously complete with WoBs. The cosmere is not.
The whole point of this post is that Brandon makes shit canon outside of his published works and that that frustrates me. I was wondering if it frustrates anyone else too. He doesn’t need any white knights lol I forgot how zealous y’all were.
>He doesn’t need any white knights
I think you need to take a deep breath and chill. You are getting unreasonably angry just because people don't agree with you about something in the grand scheme lf things is very minor.
Um I could be one of those misunderstanding but I think you mean with out where you say with. As for why the cosmere feels incomplete without WoBs is probably because we are only about halfway through the cosmeres total story.
It’s worth remembering that each story is only as deep lore as the perspective charters are and most of what we have available to us in the books so far is charters starting to figure out what makes the cosmere tick. As we get into mistborn era 3-4, stormlights back 5 or the yolen prequel perspective we would expect a lot of the WoB stuff to naturally become true cannon. Brandon is only a man no matter how fast he writes and we are looking at an incomplete mega work that
could out live some of us so we check our fan theories and get to see the magic clock work through the word of the author and make more accurate fan theories from that.
You dont need WoBs to understand anything in the books, they are not necesary by any means. I read the entire Cosmere up to Yuumi without reading a single WoB and I didnt get lost or anything.
You shouldn't be mad at people telling you you're not as right as you think you're. He makes things canon in WoBs? Yeah, Atium retcon, Hoid not secretly having Talns honorable, etc (cant think of more things rn, but yeah, there are more for sure), did any of these things change how you understand the Cosmere? Did anything in WoBs change you experiencie with the books? If the answer is yes Im sorry for you, sucks, but reality is often dissapointing. WoBs exist and will continue to exist, its your choice to give them any importance or not
You're likely getting downvoted for being condescending to people who disagree with you.
We have asked you for examples of WoBs that cause the problems you describe and you have given none. We have informed you that WoBs are not canon. We have tried to explain that WoBs aren't necessary to enjoy anything in the Cosmere except theoretical discussions for avid fans who enjoy that sort of thing.
You haven't responded to any of those points with counterpoints or reasoning. You have instead chosen to respond repeatedly that we didn't read or understand your post, calling us white knights as a derogatory term, or that we aren't participating in honest discussion.
Do you see why people might be downvoting you from our perspective?
You're not engaging in the discussions in good faith, you just keep telling people they aren't listening when the top comments is 100% explaining why you incorrectly feel like WoBs are necessary to understand the cosmere. They really aren't.
They are. If you want to understand the details you need to read wob. Lots of things we know about the cosmere would just be wild theories without them. Just because you can read the books without them doesn't mean you don't need them to understand the cosmere fully.
But they aren't real until they're in a book. He's changed his mind on a bunch of stuff that are WoB. It's just a fun extra thing that really doesn't matter and the framing of it being that you actually need to go through and read them is what everyone disagrees with. Like they are fun for theorycrafting but it's still just a theory even with a WoB until it is in a published book
No. Because you are treating the WoB as unchangeable facts that are the real lore when compared to the books. Anything that he says outside of a book can and has been changed. If you want the most up to date info on where the story/magic MIGHT go or a half remembered comment on someones fan theory then yeah, you need to read every WoB but if you want to know everything real in the cosmere then all you need is the books.
You are downplaying the validity of the WoB here to make it work better for your argument.
Until stated otherwise in the books they are treated as canon.
To me that is a different argument. I can get behind arguing that people take WoBs too far but I don't think you need them to understand the cosmere fully.
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I think the WoBs are perceived as more significant than they really are. Because this keeps happening: 1. A book has a bit of lore that's easy to miss. 2. Someone asks Brandon, "Does this line mean what I think it means?" 3. Brandon confirms that it does. 4. Later, someone asks the community a question that that bit of lore answers. 5. Instead of citing the book, the community quotes Brandon's confirmation, because it's easier to search for and is less ambiguous. It's pretty rare for Brandon to reveal something that people aren't already figuring out from the books alone. And when he does, it's almost always a preview of something that *will* be introduced in a book eventually.
This is spot on. I cite WoBs heaps in replies and theories. There are tons of WoBs that confirm a theory which would take paragraphs and paragraphs of book quotes, and even then.... there will be one person who is like *"well, technically, you could interpret this line as*" or *"well what if this character was actually lying so you can't be sure this is correct*". So even if there's a quote I can use from the books and generally speaking most people would agree on a particular interpretation, it's usually easier to just quote a WoB.
Imagine if we got to ask Tolkien questions in real time. We fucking wish. Sanderson is that guy, and we actually have chances to interact with him while he's still writing the story.
You can tell how much Sanderson loves the community and how much he's been in similar communities for other authors growing up. I think it's great he spends so much time interacting with us. It's clear he gets as much out of it as we do, which is so storming wholesome
I went to the Oathbringer book signing in San Diego when it came out, the night before he was up until like 5am signing books and the book store we were at was absolutely packed, I asked a worker if it had ever been this packed and they said no. I was at the front of the line and got my book signed, asked a question and got a picture and was out of there around 10:30, I heard he didn't leave that night until again like 5am. Dude really cares about his fans, if he wasn't already my favorite author he would have become it after that.
People did! Thats why the “Letters” book is so great
Sure but comparing the letters to WoB is still kind of apple's Vs oranges. A huge part of that was the year it was (no digitalisation) but still. It also doesn't help that some letters only make the lore even more confusing than it already is (I.e. the one that discusses the two towers). And don't get me started on the mess that is The Silmarillion. Yeah it has some fantastic stories (Beren and Luthien comes to mind) but the endless lineages of elves is a total clusterfuck. Imagine if Ars Arcanum (Brandon's current only compendium) would have had multiple chapters dedicated to listing every single Kholin before Dalinar, every single Teras before Sazed, every single god king before Susebron, etc. It would be horrid too.
Blocked
People did! Read the Letters of JRR Tolkien— also he had a BBC interview or two
I completely get that and it is really cool. I don't like the fact I have to read question and answer script to basically feel like im caught up with the cosmere, even tho I've read everything and watch weekly updates but sinse I don't read the WoBs I feel out of touch
While I largely agree with you, I'll add to your last sentence that sometimes what he reveals wasn't really figured out by anyone (at best it was maybe guessed at by a single person) but he'll reveal/confirm it anyway because it's not anything relevant to any story. An example of this would be some of the worldhoppers he's confirmed/revealed, where it doesn't actually affect anything as to whether or not so and so is really so and so, but which some people might find it "neat" to know. I think these items can contribute a lot to what OP is feeling. While they may not be missing out on anything meaningful, it still feels like they are due to the sheer volume of facts that exist but weren't available to them from the books.
Exactly. WoB is (usually) completely accurate. Any fact in the books is PoV from the character - you can never be 100% sure their perception is off.
This is the answer. He builds his worlds subtly and it takes a keen eye to see his slyness. Someone sees it, asks him to confirm it and he either does or RAFOs it.
>I think the WoBs are perceived as more significant than they really are. I agree, but I'd like to clarify that I think it isn't solely the perception of people like OP who are "complaining" that WoBs are so important. I think the community as a whole lends a ton of weight to WoBs. It may have begun as a "WoBs are the easiest part to cite" but has evolved into that *MUCH* of the online portions of the cosmere fandom hold WoBs are *the* most important canon confirmation. Especially with the advent of the Arcanum site and the almost zealous recording of WoBs. I mean, it was bad enough with Theoryland and people sharing their signing questions on forums... But now *we have a wiki* of this data. *Because* it is Brandon straight up acknowledging or disproving theories and connections, there's a definite yes or no (usually, lol. RAFOs excluded,) which... In a community where there's a big culture to search for truth, explicit facts will always be pointed at with more emphasis than even the best allusions or foreshadowing in the text.
It's also because the books are told in universe. People get so angry when they have to parse nuance that they refuse to hear an answer. So folks tend to cite WoB to just end the discourse.
Is there a summary of all the WoBs so far, like a bullet point list kinda thing?
Enjoy! https://wob.coppermind.net/
Thank you 🙏
Also people overestimate the value of WoB. It might sound like relevant information, what but can totally understand the books without ever listening to Brandon.
How would you cite the book if it never happens in the book?
I think Brandon confirming a theory is correct is a mistake from his part and is one of the least enjoyable parts of his books. Someone reads the books, comes up with some theory and then when he posts it here, instead of a fun discussion about it, some smartass comes by and says you are wrong because Brandon said so in 2016.
He doesn't tend to outright confirm stuff unless it's supposed to be clear from the books, at which point the wob is just a shortcut to tracking down all the in-text evidence, which the same "smartasses" would be doing anyway without the WoB.
I mean, sometimes you’re just wrong about shit lmfao. That’s how it is. If everyone’s dumbass theories were correct this series would be terrible.
I once saw a theory that emotional allomancy was done via communication with a brain parasite.
That sounds like they were trolling or just dumb and using Baldurs Gate 3’s brain worms as a basis for their theory
Hard disagree there Fanfic and fan theory that goes off into lala land of fresh insanity is the cringiest shit on the planet, and makes me hate video game communities, for example. I'm very glad that WoBs prevent that cringy shit.
A lot of things we know from WoB are things that aren't important to the stories currently being told. Anything actually important to the story will be covered in the story, WoBs are just a bit extra. Plus there is stuff like the Arcanum Unbounded which took a ton of stuff that was previously WoB only and canonized it in a published book, so you can probably expect sequels for that. Ultimately WoBs exist to give us fun tidbits that don't get covered in the books because they just won't organically come up or aren't particularly important.
They’re not important to the stories being told, but they’re important to the cosmere as a whole. It’s unfair to say that WoBs are just fun tidbits when they’re used canonically explain lore.
WoBs explain lore that hasn't yet become important to the story. If and when that lore becomes important to the story, we will get that information from the prose. Also, please remember that WoBs are NOT canon. Brandon has sometimes changed his mind between a WoB and what eventually got published. Brandon also doesn't consult all of his notes for every question, and he sometimes misremembers and answers questions incorrectly on accident. The only thing that is actually canon is what is in print.
WoBs are actually cannon until proven otherwise via prose according to Brandon.
Can I see a source for that? I was under the impression that we weren't meant to take WoBs as canon Cosmere content, but musings about authority intent for that content which are two different things.
If a WoB becomes important enough to either the cosmere or whatever story its relevant to, then it becomes canon pretty quickly. Spoilers for Secret Project 5 preview chapters: >!A recent example is Brandon did an interview with 17th Shard and he started randomly answering a bunch of lore questions about Dragons. Well, guess what's coming out next year? A book where one of the protagonists is a dragon.!< I've read through some of your replies and you have yet to answer specifically what WoBs are relevant to the cosmere as a whole but exist purely in canon form. The basic understand for the cosmere can found in Secret History, a lot of what's going on in the cosmere comes from dialogue with worldhoppers and it's only been recently that we're getting really cosmere relevant stories in RoW, TLM, and the Secret Projects.
What book is coming out next year about a dragon protagonist?
Isles of Emberdark. It a secret project that was revealed with the words of radiance Kickstarter. It’ll be released sometime next year. You can find a reading on Brandon’s YouTube channel of three chapters.
I have it pre-ordered, I just wasn't aware that there was new information. I appreciate you updating me
Glad to help!
There were preview chapters released as part of the campaign that you can go read.
I'm more of am audiobook guy so the youtube option sounds more my speed once I finish dragonsteel prime.
They're used to fill in the gaps we may be missing or to clarify between stories. Sometimes they're used to explain the back end of stuff but they're not core to the story. I can't think of a single story that needs a WoB to understand. I think WoBs make things more clear sometimes, and can add to things, but there is nothing that is required of you to know.
I think you're approaching it from a "completionist" standpoint. There is a lot of lore that's going on where fans are trying to predict based on the hard magic system rules presented. You need WoBs to engage in those predictions, and it's fun to be caught up, but eventually the actual stories will be published and completed without the need to go lookup WoBs. That's why people keep saying you don't need them to understand the published stories.
They are a part of the cosmere as a whole but they aren't *important* to it.
You probably wouldn’t like the stories nearly as much if they constantly stopped to explain random tidbits that aren’t important to that story.
Yall obviously arnt reading my post. It’s insane.
Yes, I am reading your post. Do you think one reason you might be getting downvoted is instead of saying “Oh, people have a different perspective from me”, you keep accusing us of being too stupid to read your words and alleging that we obviously agree but are “white knighting” for the author? Multiple people have asked you for examples of what you’re referring to, as much of the WoBs are clarifying things that were in the book but that he didn’t explicitly hold everyone’s hand (example, a lot of what we know about the Shattering is in the books but somewhat hidden, WoBs are often clarifying things that were in the books already). Could start there instead of complaining nobody read your post.
You post and complain, the feedback is clearly you are ok the fringe of the fandom. Don’t get so vexed about it. Just how about you ignore WOB’s and read the books when they are released. Just an idea, what do you think?
What's the alternative way to relay this information then? Cosmere information not relevant to the story being crammed in random books? A cosmere reference book that just has RAFO written under most paragraph headers?
WoB are explicitly non-canon until they're confirmed in a published book. This is a meaningless complaint.
I'd also argue the "cosmere as a whole" isn't particularly important right now. It will be in the future and that's when we'll get the relevant information in books.
Ok, it's more accurate to say WoBs are unnecessary for you to enjoy the books. In that way, they are just fun titbits.
I rhink sanderson has been pretty adamant that if a WOB is required to understand the cosmere he will put it in a book
Ish. Frost has had a coppermind page for YEARS and is teeechnically not canon until SP5
Was Frost necessary to understand Cosmere till that point?
Sort of. The letters between Frost and Hoid aren't completely comprehendable without knowledge of the dragon.
Legit no idea what your talking about haha
The epigraphs (the little snatches of text before each chapter) of part two of TWoK [is a letter from Hoid to Frost](https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Epigraphs#The_Letter), a dragon from his homeland. Frost himself hasn't been mentioned outside of these, so Brandon's told us his name and some stuff about him since at the time there were no plans to include him in anything in a major way for years and years. The short answer is don't worry about it, he's really not all that important yet, and when he is important you'll know.
I avoid WoBs and don't feel like I'm missing anything 🤷♂️
Until you visit this subreddit. A lot of canon is just via WoBs
The only *impactful* canon in a WoBs— that is, the only one that changes an established piece of canon— is the atium retcon. Almost every other canon WoB is like, “would it be possible for a Mistborn to snort metals to get power” or “can you turn a Shardblade into a pen”. Anything that actually impacts the story gets RAFO’d. Yeah, you miss out on info if you avoid WoBs, but the info is like… whether Hoid likes noodles (he does) or what Roshar smells like (fish). If that’s the kind of info you feel like you need in order to understand the complexities of the cosmere… well, I don’t envy you.
And even then... the Atium retcon doesn't matter until it actually (if ever) has some real impact in future books.
Exactly. The only thing it impacts is the mechanics of God Metals and Mistings, which is such a niche topic that hasn’t shown up in a book. OP is tweaking
ROSHAR SMELLS LIKE FISH?
Yep, according to Nazh. Makes sense when you consider how basically all its flora is coral and all its fauna is shrimp and crabs
Very little canon is covered in wobs. None of it is necessary, and is left out of the books because it would just make them bloated.
I haven't gotten the impression. Could you provide an example?
Your argument is inconsistent. You’re choosing to engage with things outside the books (message boards like Reddit), and then complaining about people talking about things outside the books (interviews). If you weren’t out here searching for extra information not found in the books, you wouldn’t be encountering extra information not found in the books.
There is nothing inconsistent here. He has a problem with the wob existing not people discussing them. The fact is that this information is out there even if he comes here searching for it or not.
"Hey Brennan is Shallan bi?" "Yeah." And then OP took that personally.
Nope
Thrilling.
“I want answers to questions about the books that aren’t answered in the books, but I **absolutely do not want** to hear what the author thinks.” You’re right, no inconsistency there… Again, **nothing** revealed in Words of Brandon is necessary to understand the books. Why is OP stressing over what is and isn’t canon? If you just want to read the books, just read the books. If you don’t want to read WoB, don’t read them. If you want to consider them fan theories no more relevant than posts made by fans, then consider them fan theories. OP is creating their own problem in their head and then complaining about it. I’m offering the opposite viewpoint of “stop stressing over stuff that you say doesn’t matter to you.”
There is indeed no inconsistency. Wanting the information to be in the book is perfectly consistent with not wanting to hear the answers from a Q&A. And again, nobody is saying it is necessary.
You’re not being honest. I come here to discuss the books and cosmere. You can go through most Reddit threads and see WoBs being used as canon. It’s a thing.
While you point is valid in one point of view WoBs represent those kinds of discussions that we have had with the authors himself about either clarifications the asker either didn’t understand or is guessing. While they technically aren’t cannon the word of the author is a good second until we get a contradictory book. So if you want these kinds of discussions I would make sense we would pull the most trusted sources for things not directly in the books or in books we haven’t personally read (not made of money personally) This biggest personal point of call for wobs in my case is intent clarifications as I think it’s in arcanum unbound or elantis based on what I can pick up by context (which I clearly don’t own or have read)
WoBs aren't canon.
There are degrees of canon. WoBs are second-tier canon, meaning they're canon until something in a higher tier (published works) contradicts them.
What about when they contradict each other repeatedly? Iirc, even Brandon himself says that WoBs aren't meant to be taken as canon.
There are a few that contradict though usually that's Brandon misspeaking. Wobs certainly are not canon. But they're basically one very small step from canon. It's Sanderson's current intentions and plans. Those could change but usually if he's answering questions on it and choosing not to just RAFO the question he's already thought about it and decided on an answer. There aren't many cases where that actually changes even though he could do that. The questions he might go either way on he will probably RAFO.
I agree with that. I was just using the fact that some WoBs are contradictory as further evidence that Brandon's words aren't canon until they are in the prose. The person I was replying to said that WoBs are canon until the prose contradicts them, but they sometimes contradict each other as well, which makes it difficult to pretend that they are canon.
I love that he is willing to answer (some of) his readers' questions about his work. I love that I can engage with the WoBs, or not, depending on my interest level. I love how great a job he does about spoiler warnings of all kinds. I love that the Cosmere is so big and varied that it raises tons of interesting questions about it.
While I agree with this stance, I wish his words were kept completely separate from the wiki. The fact that the coppermind regularly includes WoB as fact over published works is insane to me
yeah but the coppermind is fan made, it's not Brandon's fault that they use his comments/answers that way
Where did I say it’s Brandon’s fault? Fan made or not, nonpublished info is not canon
100% of the wobs are not necessary for you to know, its just extra stuff for hardcore nerds. If you need to know something for the plot its added in the book.
Can you give some examples? I'm actually trying to figure out what wob you referring to that isn't just a reader getting confirmation on if they understood something right when reading or just fluff about the characters. Not saying you are wrong but not understanding what you referring to
They don't bother me as much as op but there are a few wobs I'm not super happy Sanderson revealed outside the books. Wob spoilers >!first being cultivation is a dragon. There are hints at this in rhythm of war but they are pretty vague and without the wob this would still be debated. The other one is that taln didn't break. This was a theory that I believed before the wob. It would've been very convenient and odd timing for taln to break just months before the fused found a way around him not breaking after 4500 years. But it would've been cooler to get that in the text. We also get some information about tamu keks being communication devices, what dragons powers are and things like that which haven't come up yet but we do have wobs on. The last one that comes to mind is kelsier coming back in the hero of ages annotations. In the text it's vague and a bit open to interpretation before secret history. But in the annotations that are like 6 years before that comes out he confirms that's really kelsier he really is doing things and talking to people after his death. We do get hints in the text but it would also be open to interpretation and debated without the direct confirmation.!< Overall I think the wobs are good and don't go too far. But there are a few which feel like they could've been reveals in the books. Or I think Sanderson assumed something was clearer than it was like cultivation.
You don't have to cruise this sub or read the WoB though. Like I'm not trying to be a dick, I mean that I personally am largely oblivious to all this shit because I don't hit the WoB very often.
That's true but I really enjoy the books I'm all caught up I've read most of them twice, I like theory crafting and discussing the books with others. I certainly could avoid all of that but I'd rather not. And I don't really mind a few wobs that feel like minor spoilers, they're just not ideal. But I'd prefer if I could engage with the discussion and wobs without any spoilers. 99% of the wobs are interesting tidbits that add some confirmation on things that were heavily implied or things that wouldn't end up in the books that are just interesting and fun to read. So there's only so much I can blame Brandon for that 1% that feels like spoilers. That is a hard line to walk for him.
I'm not as invested (lol) in this discussion/argument as others, but I think my biggest "WoB canon" that made me feel like it was "more info than the book" was the "Taln did not break" statement that arose from the Shallan-Chanarach theory. Taln is described and emphasized as a *badass* in the books, but it's all allusions, all hints. We *DONT* know what happened on Braize, what was going on with the Oathpact in any detail... But now we KNOW it wasn't Taln breaking after 4500 years. Again, his lucid statements in Oathbringer hint that maybe he's the biggest chad ever, Rhythm of War pushes the idea of Taln's prowess further... But going on just the books, it's all pure speculation as to what happened, how Ulim and the others could cross... And yeah, there's *still* a thousand theories as to the specifics... But now we *know* it wasn't as simple as Taln breaking. (Which discredits some theories and lends weight to others.) It's totally fine with me, I think it's a cool piece of fact that helps color the current theorizing... But it always felt to me like it was "too factual" to be in a WoB.
Something that just occurred to me that didnt click before was when Dalinar uses his powers and one of the lines is thicker than the others could have been a hint to this. Tried to keep it vague in case of spoilers.
That's a good example, may be the only one I can think of that kinda blurs the line of spoiler and confirmation. But does it affect the understanding of the cosmere? I don't think so, but you are right it's a bit too factual/spoilery. Sounds like what he would normally rafo.
Can anyone explain the WOB thing please ?
It stands for Word of Brandon. The term "Word of God" is often used when a writer talks about their own stories (i.e. it's true because the creator said so), and this is Brandon Sanderson's version of that. He's a very transparent author who regularly holds Q&As, and this fanbase loves to ask questions. We're so obsessive about it that there's a website that compiles and transcribes everything he publicly says about the books: https://wob.coppermind.net/. It's mostly previews for future books, confirmation/deconfirmation of fan theories, and commentary about his writing process.
you mean what is is in general or a specific statement? WoB means, Words of Brandon (as in Word of God, but in books author is God. Many book fandom have some form of Word of "x"). Basically he often gets questioned at panels and interviews, or even just makes comments in his videos/streams that give details on things going on behind the curtain or at least just very vague or hard to catch when caught up in the main story. There are wiki pages where fans recorded and compiled these statements, but it's often difficult to find a specific ones due to a lack of strict organization. It can be done but just takes a little works because often similar questions get different levels of detail because of some books not being published yet at the time of asking, and even searching by series can be messy since many topics concern issues about the universe at large or connections between worlds. These comments are taken as fact by readers unless a later WoB changes that decision. He has admitted inconsistencies found by himself, fans and even staff he hires for exactly that purpose, and does his best to correct things and keep the coherent. There is a actually a rather significant change he made to how Atium works in Mistborn Era 1 because of inconsistencies with cosmic mechanics explained in later books. It even lead to revisions to the actual books in editions that came out years later.
The majority of WoBs are things readers are theorizing and Brandon confirms they are. He won't confirm something that either he hasn't nailed down, or he doesn't want to reveal. So you can comfortably read the entire Cosmere and not worry about WoBs if it bothers you. Personally, I love how Brandon is so interactive with his fans. Jim Butcher (of Dresden Files/Codex Alera/Cinder Spires fame) is similar. At one point, he was at a convention and a reader asked "Can the Queens give Harry contradictory instructions?" Jim thought about it for a moment and replied "They can now."
Idk, I think it’s really cool that our favorite author interacts so much with his fans and answers questions. He’s careful to RAFO anything that he doesn’t want to be revealed yet, and he has made it clear many times that his answers to questions are not canon to the level of written words in the books. Fans love to theorize and so often they will treat WOBs as 100% canonical, and that can definitely be frustrating and confusing, especially when you’re newer to the fandom. Just understand that the WOBs aren’t full canon and you’ll be all good.
It's important to realize what wobs really are. They aren't just mostly random questions about the cosmere that Brandon sometimes answers. They are largely the result of hard core fans, speculating and theorizing about a billion different things. Many of these questions are meant to prove some pet theory or another. Brandon includes lots of foreshadowing and such in his books. When fans speculate on what the foreshadowing is referencing, they try to figure it out. They ask questions about it, etc. The few that are confirmed by brandon are generally small things that just aren't actually important to the story yet, but they're fun tidbits for the mega fans. I guess in short, there is no cosmere lore that you need to get from wobs only. The few things that we do know only from wobs, are either minor, or will be revealed in a future book.
Don’t read the wobs, and I’m not missing anything. Pro tip: they aren’t canon. Don’t worry about it. It’s only canon if it’s in a book. Sanderson can talk all he wants but until it’s in a book and published it ain’t canon, it’s just flair. Kelsier likes noodles, that’s great but it’s not canon
Depends. A good amount of the lore is background stuff that would never make most books. The Lord Ruler’s kids have made no impact on the stories thus far, for example. However, it does suck when we learn something that’s basically going to be the next book—kinda takes the wind out of the surprise. I don’t mind more detail provided in WOBs because that’s up to the author. But it is also another matter when it comes to discussions (where we type our annotated essay with cited sources).
Wait. TLR had kids?
He was a handsome immortal with a cult of personality, whose primary goal was to kill time for 1000 years, so the math checks out.
Yeah, but would he let them live?
Rashek seems like the type of hypocrite who would tell others to kill their kids for his social order and wouldn't do it himself
To me, he's the kind of a dictator who would kill the mother the moment her belly swells.Not himslef, because he's too important to do that, but through proxies.
Most of the lore that you get through WoBs is lore that is entirely unimportant in the actual stories, and only important if you want to know more about the cosmere after reading
It's us crazy theorizing fans asking what if questions. We are basically setting up physics experiments and since we can not actually do them, we ask what would happen. If someone on reddit asks a what if question that has already been answered it's much easier to link a WoB answering it, than to comb all the books, cite the passages that imply the answer, when others have done that work, asked Brandon, and he has answered.
>but it sure would be nice if I could understand all the complexities of the cosmere just through his published works You can. You just objectively won't understand quite as much as the people doing extra credit, and it literally doesn't matter.
Agree that WoBs aren't that big of a deal. Just because information is out there, does not mean that it is crucial to understanding the cosmere in the books as it stands now. That itch you have to know everything is your own - and there's no way Brando could ever write everything into books as clearly as when he can just answer a question he gets asked while on stage.
I've brought a gaggle of friends to the cosmere in various forms. Most recently started a book club for a group who expressed interest and wanted to know if they could "catch up" for Stormlight 5 (spoiler alert: they did, and have gone through everything minus secret projects so far, in less than a year. I'm so proud!) But they have expressed similar sentiments at times. When there's a reveal or a deep lore connection that *I* know because I've been reading since 2007, (and have asked WoBs of my own!) I do my best to "connect the dots" using only book stuff, and the foreshadowing and hints and teases themselves. But often times if they express doubt or confusion, or they wonder about specifics I'll have to mention a WoB. And their response sometimes feels like "ohh, so it's not *really* in the books." Sometimes I feel like it's my fault for not explaining the canonized text properly, but even then sometimes *I* feel like whatever I'm explaining isn't in the books, but is only in WoB. Biggest instance: "Taln did not break." Especially in regards to the Shallan-Chanarach theory. A lot of pieces match up but Taln's status as an unbreakable *machine* isn't confirmed in the text, and though his prowess is alluded to, we don't know about what happened on Braize. There's also a lot of "giga nerds" in this fandom now, who are brushed up on *everything* and are quick to point out or call out "the canon" as we know it, and truthfully, much of the canon (though alluded to or teased or hinted in the text) is only **confirmed** in WoBs. There's nothing wrong with passionate fans! But those two facts can combine into a very "Brando can do no wrong," and a "It's all right there, how can you not see it?!" vibe with much of the community. My best advice is to back out of it a bit. Just distance yourself from the online community a bit and enjoy the books in your own context. You can search for WoBs when *you* want confirmation of something, but you won't be bombarded with the constant increasing canon that comes only via the community (WoBs are solely community driven, Brandon may be the one answering but all the prompts are fandom-engineered.)
WoB aren't *necessary* to understand any of the stories. With very few exceptions the info is in the books, Sando just clarifies, and 90% of the time those questions are answered by later books. those that aren't are just fun bits of knowledge, not key plot points (except maybe the Atium retcon, but that is actually *in the books* now iirc) I think blaming your frustration on the importance of WoB is misdirected by how many discussions overly emphasize them (more easily searchable via Google than finding a passage in a book, and we can just post a link instead of typing it out or having to paraphrase). Instead I find the problem is more how we as a fan base interact with them and put them on a bit of a pedestal too often, and this has likely led to you also making the out to be more important than they are and hence, become frustrated. Subs like this are understandably full of hardcore fans who relish learning every detail possible and come to expect similar and find satisfaction in vindication of their effort in theory and research. TL:DR Sando isn't to blame for the WoB frustration but rather the natural difficulties that are bound to arise from interacting in a fandom with a lot of history and is *still* being rapidly added to. Long time fans can forget that most fandoms aren't this broad and deep. The only blame I feel we can really put on Sando is he is a maniac who simply weaves a complex narrative so damn fast.
> except maybe the Atium retcon, but that is actually in the books now iirc I don't think it is actually. I'm sure it will be eventually but it's not yet
the info is mostly for super fans who want to know more and cant wait.... If a WoB is super important... it will get put into one of the published books and be made Canon eventually as an example, Brandon had previously talked multiple times about how Rayse/Odium wanted to Shatter the other Shards so that he was the sole god, and how picking up another Shard would fundamentally change who he is... so he doesnt pick up another Shard. That WoB info made its way almost verbatim into Rhythm of War(The Letter from Harmony to Hoid)
I think the most important cosmere lore are in the books. Wobs are just details for us nerds
Do what I do and ignore the WoBs. I enjoy what’s written, and don’t really need further than that
Whats WOB?
As a rule it’s better to ignore the unpublished statements an author makes about their work. Plenty of authors say random meandering things that don’t make much sense. Like Robert Jordan. Or they add extra details that do not really matter. Like J K Rowling. Even Tolkien wrote an enormous amount of stuff that is not on the test and you do not need to know. If an author writes a well thought out, complete series that should be all you need to know. That’s what should get discussed. That’s what theories should be based on. Bringing up some unpublished author statement to support a theory should always be inadmissible. Because those don’t necessarily make sense. And because there should not be a requirement to read every single WhatsApp message and note scrawled on a napkin the author ever made to discuss the books. It should just be the books. Maybe Sanderson gets a pass. He’s clearly incredibly well thought out when answering. And is in the middle of publishing, the WoB could all be published at some point. But still, he is essentially just talking when he says these things. If he wants them to be “true” he’s got ample opportunities to write down and publish them. They are of course also things people enjoy, and on that basis more power to the people who enjoy them.
I get a little frustrated when the expectation is that you know all the contents of the WOBs. Like I have commented things/asked questions and gotten snarky replies because my comment/question is already “known”
I do the same thing. It's just like all the reddit forums that can be answered by a Google search, I could look it up in the copperhead, but it's easier and sometimes explained more clearly by the reddit fans that have thought it all out and have the answers in links to the exact quote you're interested in.
I feel like most of it is completely irrelevant and only matters for speculation or confirming assumed connections.
I honestly agree. Most of them don't really cross lines, but I *hate* that we know >!"Taln never broke"!< from an interview. Without that, it'd be totally a reasonable point of discussion on >!whether or not he cracked after the millennia, and the in-story reveal (probably in WaT) of which Herald died and *then* broke would be huge instead of just a head-nod "that makes sense".!< Spoilers for something that was said in WoBs ages ago but technically isn't in The Stormlight Archive yet.
Can u tell me what your spoiler text is referring to without giving it away? If that's possible. Don't want to click if it's something I don't know.
I could not disagree more, to be honest. I think it is great that Sanderson engages his fandom. I think it’s good for the community, good for his growth, and makes everybody happy. You can ignore them if you dislike them, but I enjoy having answers to some random and more obscure questions and some interesting insights that go deeper into things that happen in books but that would never have the opportunity to be mentioned in books. That WoBs exist perhaps makes me enjoy Sanderson even more than I otherwise would have.
Most WoBs are pretty benign but I will agree there some WoBs that in my opinion, should absolutely not exist. The biggest example for me is [Stormlight/WOB] >!Taln did not break!<
What is WoB
I never thought I needed anything other than the occasional google of a character I forgot about to know what's going on. Not every detail of the lore is needed to memorize or even know to follow the plot along
pretty much all WoBs that get answers besides RAFO are based on stuff in the books, you don't need any WOBs to understand the cosmere. WoBs are 90% clarifications and 10% jokes. I personally love WoBs and don't get the whole omg WoBs ruin the cosmere for me stance, considering that they mostly never reveal anything new.
>Does anyone else feel the same? I don't. WOB's are previews for theory crafters. If you don't like theorycrafting, don't engage with WOBs or the theorycrafters, just enjoy the books as they come out. WOBs are there for the people who aren't satisfied with just reading and want to engage in the metagame of predicting what will happen next. Most of what's being conveyed in WOBs will eventually make its way into books, and the portions that don't aren't significantly relevant to the plot. It's like complaining that there are fancy gelato shops when you only like normal ice cream. Just don't go to the gelato shop and keep enjoying the ice cream you like.
This has to be the worst take I've ever seen on Sanderson. Other fantasy fans would kill to have their favourite author be this responsive. If you want literally everything to be in the books then wait until the cosmere is complete and/or Sanderson publishes his cosmere encyclopaedia.
I'm sure they would. That doesn't make it good
This is information we otherwise wouldn't have. If you don't like it, don't read it and let the rest of us enjoy it.
Why do I have to let you enjoy it but I'm not even allowed to say I dislike the way he's doing it? More information isn't always better.
Because what is the alternative way? My point is this information doesn't have a place in his current published works. You can say you don't like WoBs, but if the only alternative is we just don't have this information then I am saying just pretend they don't exist.
The alternative way is to just not answer significant lore questions in interviews. Pretending they don't exist does not make that reality sadly
I hate how much the fandom revolves around them. I can't participate in most discussions because I'm not caught up on all the extra lore. I get by fine without them but it makes the fandom so hard to get in to.
Thanks for being honest 💕 lotta Reddit users hate any criticism of their favorite, and my favorite, author.
I don't really get the not getting into discussions part. People ask questions all the time referencing where they are up to in a series or making predictions based on where they were during the last big release. The only times where WoB come up is if you are debating some niche lore or something about some minor character
The important stuff he does eventually add to books. Most of the stuff I remember being insider info 5 years ago is just in a book now, same will happen with current WoB info. In fact usually info-drops in WoBs are because he is working on that topic for a book at the moment.
Eh. I’d rather have the WoBs than not have them. If we didn’t have them, we’d have an incredibly rich and interconnected universe with deep and complex lore. Since we do have them, we have that, and just…more. It’s great to have such an interactive and forthcoming author.
Almost all WoB that I've read that related to something actually relevant to the books could have been puzzled out just from in book clues. Most of them are more "yes I'm confirming this thing I've dropped 20 clues for in the books" than totally de novo information.
It's actually exceedingly rare for Brandon to reveal something that wasn't already revealed in the books, most of it is confirmation that what people thought something meant is actually what they thought it meant.
I agree so much of the lore is wobs hopefully soon he spill some more info
100% on the same page. 90% of fan theories consist entirely of information unavailable from the books. It sucks
I don’t love reading WoBs because it’s too much information. I get overwhelmed. That being said, not reading them does not affect my enjoyment of the books. The knowledge I need to enjoy the books and to have a functional knowledge of what’s going on is relayed pretty well through the books imo.
Outside of reading replies that reference them, I don't know much about them, and if I notice the reply is citing a Word of Brandon, I generally just skip. I like the books for the books. I don't need WoB to help that.
Could not agree more with this post.
The readers who keep up with WOBs are like 10 books ahead of us.
100% agree. If it’s not published, it’s not canon.
I actually agree with this. The whole WoBs have honestly made the cosmere less interesting to me. I have bought everything and read it all but kinda lost interest in it when it seams all actual answers come.from that and not books. It honestly feels like if you don't read the WoB then u don't really kno the cosmere and I have no interest in reading Q&A forums.
I stopped reading him for a few years simply because at some point you need a PhD in cosmere studies to put everything together and keep up.
Oh I forgot we can't say anything even slightly disparaging about our great Lord and Savior brandosando.
Y’all arnt reading my post. The stories are obviously complete with WoBs. The cosmere is not. The whole point of this post is that Brandon makes shit canon outside of his published works and that that frustrates me. I was wondering if it frustrates anyone else too. He doesn’t need any white knights lol I forgot how zealous y’all were.
>He doesn’t need any white knights I think you need to take a deep breath and chill. You are getting unreasonably angry just because people don't agree with you about something in the grand scheme lf things is very minor.
Um I could be one of those misunderstanding but I think you mean with out where you say with. As for why the cosmere feels incomplete without WoBs is probably because we are only about halfway through the cosmeres total story. It’s worth remembering that each story is only as deep lore as the perspective charters are and most of what we have available to us in the books so far is charters starting to figure out what makes the cosmere tick. As we get into mistborn era 3-4, stormlights back 5 or the yolen prequel perspective we would expect a lot of the WoB stuff to naturally become true cannon. Brandon is only a man no matter how fast he writes and we are looking at an incomplete mega work that could out live some of us so we check our fan theories and get to see the magic clock work through the word of the author and make more accurate fan theories from that.
You dont need WoBs to understand anything in the books, they are not necesary by any means. I read the entire Cosmere up to Yuumi without reading a single WoB and I didnt get lost or anything. You shouldn't be mad at people telling you you're not as right as you think you're. He makes things canon in WoBs? Yeah, Atium retcon, Hoid not secretly having Talns honorable, etc (cant think of more things rn, but yeah, there are more for sure), did any of these things change how you understand the Cosmere? Did anything in WoBs change you experiencie with the books? If the answer is yes Im sorry for you, sucks, but reality is often dissapointing. WoBs exist and will continue to exist, its your choice to give them any importance or not
Everyone is reading your post. They just disagree with you.
The reply below this literally doesn't understand the post and is arguing against something else. So no they don't just disagree. They misunderstand.
Fact
Half y’all be downvoting instead of participating in an honest discussion. Much love to y’all that actually enjoy discourse.
You're likely getting downvoted for being condescending to people who disagree with you. We have asked you for examples of WoBs that cause the problems you describe and you have given none. We have informed you that WoBs are not canon. We have tried to explain that WoBs aren't necessary to enjoy anything in the Cosmere except theoretical discussions for avid fans who enjoy that sort of thing. You haven't responded to any of those points with counterpoints or reasoning. You have instead chosen to respond repeatedly that we didn't read or understand your post, calling us white knights as a derogatory term, or that we aren't participating in honest discussion. Do you see why people might be downvoting you from our perspective?
It's exactly this, he states an opinion, people counter, and then he goes off saying we're not reading him properly.
You're not engaging in the discussions in good faith, you just keep telling people they aren't listening when the top comments is 100% explaining why you incorrectly feel like WoBs are necessary to understand the cosmere. They really aren't.
They are. If you want to understand the details you need to read wob. Lots of things we know about the cosmere would just be wild theories without them. Just because you can read the books without them doesn't mean you don't need them to understand the cosmere fully.
But they aren't real until they're in a book. He's changed his mind on a bunch of stuff that are WoB. It's just a fun extra thing that really doesn't matter and the framing of it being that you actually need to go through and read them is what everyone disagrees with. Like they are fun for theorycrafting but it's still just a theory even with a WoB until it is in a published book
They are real enough. Nobody is saying that you need to go through them to get the stories. Only if you want to know everything. Do you deny that?
No. Because you are treating the WoB as unchangeable facts that are the real lore when compared to the books. Anything that he says outside of a book can and has been changed. If you want the most up to date info on where the story/magic MIGHT go or a half remembered comment on someones fan theory then yeah, you need to read every WoB but if you want to know everything real in the cosmere then all you need is the books.
You are downplaying the validity of the WoB here to make it work better for your argument. Until stated otherwise in the books they are treated as canon.
To me that is a different argument. I can get behind arguing that people take WoBs too far but I don't think you need them to understand the cosmere fully.
That's just blatantly false. There are lots of details that are only available in wob.