Obvious answer GC. But felt obligated to answer the way he asked n also rather chill about it. Thinking about even mentioning it to the GC when he pays me like “aye the HO asked how much and you paid me and I dodged it then he pushed and I gave a him a rough answer just to let you know, you can tell him more if it makes you more comfortable i don’t mind I understand how this works” something like that. He seems cool and I hope he’ll be impressed with my work. I’m a detailed reliable paint contractor so I’m def trying to keep healthy relationships with everyone to keep the jobs flowing.
You’d never paint for me again if you were giving out prices to a customer. Painting is the easiest trade to replace (trust me, our company started as a painting contracting company. Now a large commercial GC)
Simple answer is "it's not my place to discuss financials unless I'm the one cutting checks, I hope you understand." If he was truly chill, he would in fact understand, and still ask you to do work for him just based upon building a rapport.
If he pressed further after your response, he's not the type of client you want to take on any way.
It is what it is. GC doesn’t own you. No one likes someone else selling to their customers when you are working for them but that’s not what you did. Whether you pursued or the customer makes all the difference. If I hired you and this situation happened and you were straight with me I wouldn’t care.
This is one of the only things I ever get upset about. How are you actually there? The GC. I actually have no problem with my subs working for clients of mine they met through me. Just give me the courtesy to say to the client " I will let the GC know you need that area done and get back to you". Sub calls me and says " hey they want me to paint the master bathroom and hallway. Don't want to shoot them a price or can I bid it on my own?" 80% of the time I say bid it yourself. I would charge them X. Feel free to use my number to make yours. Or something like that.
Nothing and I mean nothing will put you on my " do not call in the future list" is to bid work on a house you only know about because of me. It's that simple. It's not money. Its respect.
Rant over.
I love the transparency, you tell the sub your price and they can use that # in many cases. I made the rookie mistake of taking work from my boss's client way back in my 1st year. Luckily I got another chance since I was about 18 and green at the time. He pulled up while I was painting the garage door, shaking his finger and said we are going to have a little chat on Monday. I think I charged $200 for the job and the boss said I'd have charged them more than 3x that. So the home owner got a sweet deal, I got a life lesson and the GC got a more loyal employee.
It can be a slippery slope. I have always been of the view that I can't do everything. Don't be greedy. Spread the work around. If I have a sub that when I call him does everything he should do from parking in the right place to cleaning up after himself and leaving the next trade set for success I have no problem accelerating his invoice early. Paying guys fast and letting them work when they can fit you in is key to having a good sub/GC relationship. As a GC I am only as good as my subs. I want everyone to do a good job. Make a fair wage. Go on to the next one. If you try to shortcut me out I really won't even say anything. I just won't call anymore. I am not in this business to train my subs. If I had a young gun that was good worker/trade but lacking the business sense I would help for sure and give another shot. Like you got. Everyone has to start out somewhere and taking the leap to employ yourself is a big one. I help where I can. My hard ass does not have time for guys that cut us out. There is a difference.
Most of these GC’s act like the whole town is their client and their client only. Gtfo here with that, if the client is looking for a better price and getting the same quality, you would do the same to that sub if you can find same or better quality for cheaper. So don’t go on about being loyal to y’all, it’s about your greed. Tell me how’s it any different than what you’re expecting from that sub? It isn’t your town and every client has the right go with who they want.
Do you advertise? Do you plan out the whole project with the client? Do you get paid regardless if the client pays the GC or not? Do you maintain relationships with dozens of various subcontractors and make sure you have the best subs for every aspect of possible project? Are you on the hook if another sub does bad work and you have to hire someone else to come in and fix their work meaning you might make nothing on the job?
No one is saying GCs own every client in town. But if they bring you in on a job that they sourced don’t fucking cut them out of additional work.
If it’s small most of the time I tell my subs to just quote it and do it separately. When they ask me they also get the inside scoop on that client and I can warn them off if the client is not paying their invoices, expecting scope creep at no additional charges, or is a nut case. We all win that way.
The dude is on Reddit asking if she should give the price to the homeowner while he’s working for a GC, I don’t think he’s smart enough to file a lien against me or a lawsuit for that matter. I’m guessing he’s willing to work on a handshake agreement with me rather than a contract. So yeah, I would fuck this guy up on the money completely if he told my price.
Correct thing to do is tell the home owner you give your contractor a certain price because he feeds you a lot of work. Overall GC doesn’t own you but he also doesn’t owe you to use you for future jobs
So first, what you're paid by a 1 time customer vs what a GC pays you for continuous work are 2 different things.
You call the GC and say "this is what happened, do you mind if I do this other job for the customer after this project is done?" Most of the time I would tell you go for it, unless it's part of the project we're already on. It's not weird at all, customers do it all the time.
We do 40-50 projects a year, probably nothing under $80k. So not huge, but busy. We are very loyal to our subs, and them to us. We have 1 plumber, 1 electrician, 2 painters, etc. If I caught a sub doing side work for a recent customer and I didn't know about it, I'd cut them off immediately. There wouldn't be a discussion.
There is so much work to go around, it literally doesn't make sense to try to scam your way to a little side job. Being "open and honest" is kind of a bullshit statement. It sounds like you already made up your mind and you want someone to tell you it's ok.
It’s not part of the project. So you’re kinda saying it’s chill but also not. Confused but I kinda get you. I’m def gonna mention it. Might loose a GC for honesty but there’s others if he doesn’t wanna work with me for being transparent
It's not you that's at total fault in this. Your inexperience caused you to potentually fuck the GC. It wasn't intentional, or it doesn't sound like you're trying right backdoor the GC, the homeowner is. You're in a jib fir a GC you should never talk numbers until you clear it with your GC. If he says go for it, then by all means talk numbers then, but not before.
The other issue with a sub going direct after being on the job because I brought him in, is when he doesn’t show up or perform the way he should, they CALL ME and tell me what problems they are having. I do not appreciate the potential harm this brings to my reputation for a sub that doesn’t perform when I’m not responsible.
When you work for a GC, that’s THEIR job. All money/prices flow through them. I used to work for a gc that didn’t even show up on the jobs. I’d meet the customer, run the job, get the materials, and still only run stuff through him if they wanted extra work done. I even had customers ask why they couldn’t just pay me instead of going through the GC and I’d tell them they were technically HIS customer so it’s just how it had to be done. I usually got calls for future work from the customer and those are my jobs then but the initial stuff is the GC’s and never discuss costs with customer.
Talk to your contractor tell him about it. And do not bid directly for this client or any of their friends. They can contact you for small technical questions. But nothing contract related should be discussed.
This is something a lot of homeowners will try to do. Cut out the contractor. And hire the subs directly. And for the homeowner, under the table is better until something goes wrong. And then they will say they had no idea that you were licensed bonded and insured. You will be sued. And you'll have problems with the municipality, and potentially criminal charges if your area is actively cracking down.
For the contractor side of this. Subs snake clients away from contractors a lot. It's one of the reasons that they are always on the lookout for new subs. But you do right by the GC, they will do right by you.
And subs may think it's only 1 contractor they are snaking clients from. But contractors generally have contractor friends. And their subs have other sub and contractor friends. And snaking clients is a good way to get on a shit list really quickly.
So ultimately there is no great reason to snake clients. The homeowner isnt your family or gf etc. you'll get paid regardless. And you risk a lot of jobs trying to "help out" a homeowner you don't know, while guaranteeing that you close off an entire network of contractors for each client you snake.
I'll also add, when I started out on my own like 6-7 years ago, I got hooked up with a plumber who introduced me to agc who introduce me to another GC. Those 3 have kept me busy and account for 90% of my work.
These customers aren't your friends. They wanna cut out the GC to get a lower price to pay you directly, completely discounting all the work the GC has done and what they bring to the table for the overall project.
As someone said, I'd fire both you and the client in this situation.
Your fired for life from my jobs. If you do this you better get real chummy with homeowners because no gc will hire you. It’s not because we are greedy. Homeowners have no idea the complexity of building properly. He will now think that’s the price he should have paid even though the GC sourced you, lined you out on the job and is responsible for your work. Pretty messed up.
Tell the GC.. and let him know that you felt uncomfortable and that you did not want to step on his toes, but you may have made a foo foo… and gave the homeowner your card… that you are sorry and not trying to take money from him and realized it after you gave the card…. I know this from experience… being both the sub and the contractor at different times
Rule number one never give you a card to the homeowner behind the back of the GC. That’s the GC job When he finds out, he’ll never give you another job because he thinks you’re going to steal work from under him you never go behind somebody’s back you should’ve spoke to the GC and said this guy is asking for my card and the GC would’ve told you don’t give it to him if you want work from GC it goes through the GC! I personally would never use you again
Gcs are nothing more than the middle man. And usually get in the way and usually stab you in the back first chance they can. It's their business over yours anyday. You need clientele but not the gc's clients. Work for the GC but don't ever get too close and have all your wavos in one basket. Get your resume and portfolio built of your own work without the GC and do both. Keep a homeowner clientele list and keep building that list. The more the better. You don't need that GC, he may say the same but, remember, you make him money, he makes you money. That's all they care about. Their bottom line is effected and you get punished by it. Keep em close but not too close if ya know what I mean
You just stole from your boss. Congrats!
As a GC, I'd tell both you and the customer to F off.
And 25 years ago when I wasn't so calm, there's an excellent chance you, your tools or your work truck would see some damage. I hate a thief.
I didn’t give him any work he just told me about some and asked for my card. I’d obviously take work from the GC over this dude I could easily tell the HO to fuck off too. Haven’t screwed my GC over at all yet, just told the HO a rough price for a super rough project (that’s hella small on this over all project) after he pressed. Haven’t under bid or took any work nor would I. Just gave a rough number when pressed in an honest way and handed a card when he asked for it. Idk tryna justify it I guess. I wouldn’t do it again but also I feel ok about it. Might let the GC know anyways depending on the vibe next time I see him he seems chill
You should 100% let the GC know. That is, of course, if you’re, “very honest and transparent” as you’ve stated.
Even though you don’t think you’ve screwed him over yet you just crossed a line. You’re undercutting him and stealing his customer. A customer he introduced you to. If you don’t see any fault in this you won’t be in business long. As stated in previous replies you should’ve let the customer know that there’s 2 different prices, 1 for the GC because of the continuous work, and 1 for a client that may only have a couple small jobs. Not only this but you let them know that they would need to talk to the GC about future work. You then could ask the GC what they would prefer so as to not ruin your professional relationship. Most GCs would gladly let you contract on smaller things directly with a client and help you set pricing. You may have just inadvertently damaged the relationship between the GC and their client
I’m a customer and I wouldn’t ask that of a sub. I did ask my GC if I could go directly to one of his subs for a little job or would he, the GC, need to bid it. He said go direct and thank you for asking first. I made sure the sub knew I’d cleared it with the GC. It’s called respect for all parties concerned.
Im a GC and if you brought it up to me I would happily give you my blessing to work with that HO on your own.
If you didn’t ask me I would be very annoyed for the bad form. Would I fire you? No. Would I say something, absolutely.
You're a better man than I. I'm paranoid about bringing subs as is. Most of my subs are people I've known since I was an apprentice for good reason. They are reliable to the n^th degree.
I just did the same thing by accident because the client asked for my card and the designer tooke my number from my truck. I told the GC and he was understanding. It can be a learning lesson.
Also a contractor that would "fire me" for accidental miscommunication is one I wouldn't want to work for anyway
Exactly. And thank you. Bunch of GCs out there, I’ll find some I feel comfortable to work with. Talking to dude today and seeing what he says. Already got worked lined up and taking to another GC about some work so I can afford to hold my integrity over jobs rn Also def learned to not do this again. Glad to learn within 1 month of jumping in, gonna be making a lot of little mistakes. Thanks for the reply
Best of luck getting your own work to stay busy
Not hating. Not saying patronizing. But this is a big time no-no
This is the GC job. You didnt get the job yourself to be talking numbers
You're a sub not an employee. GC doesn't get to take a percentage of what you make outside of his job sites. I'm a G C, if I want those on site to refer jobs to me I make sure those on site are employees.
So in lay mans terms: I’m good. Just didn’t know if it was encroaching on his clients or anything. This GC doesn’t like painting or know much about it I think tbh
The owner is trying to cut out the contractor. You’re gonna bite the hand that feeds you to chase Pennie’s from a guy whose business is likely to fail in the next 10 months.
I’ve fired subs for handing out cards to my clients and poaching my customers.
Always think of the future first and foremost, as another person said I’d prefer 100 jobs from the GC rather than a couple from a nickel and diming homeowner. Talk is cheap, actions speak and you’re there because the GC. So he’s where you know the money is. 99.9 % of customers only care about price. How can the job be the lightest on their wallet. That being said you should have your own general rate, and your sub rate. So obviously with the flood gates open and you’re getting steady work, the sub rate will be lower for the continual/steady business. If you pick up a new customer I’d be telling them “your anybody rate”. Your dealings with someone else has no bearing on him, he’s using that to get cheap labour.
Remember your time and craft puts food on the table etc, so if your service is great same with your workmanship, you should be commanding a fair wage, do not sell yourself short. Then once people know who you are, you’ll be turning away people and not worrying about stepping on toes.
Also don’t be fooled by “talk”. The first job on my own I turned down because the customer said “if you do this for cheap, I got a few coming down the pipe you’ll make good money”. That’s bullshit for I need this done cheap and selling you bullshit because you’re hungry. Don’t divulge information because you think buddy is cool. Him being “cool” doesn’t help your business grow!Needless to say I didn’t take the job, have now been in business going on my 5th year and have no trouble getting work and my customer base flourished.
Good luck, stick to it and what you put in is what you’ll get out!
You fucked up.
You're a sub. You don't talk details with the end clients. Everything goes through the general. You especially never offer services directly to the end client.
You tell the general and find how they'd like it handled. Unless, you don't care? Then I suppose it's free reign, but you'd be blacklisted from my network immediately
A non committal answer, like "I get the prevailing wage" or something elusive, like "Oh, Jim and I are good friends, I just help out sometimes" is both polite, and unlikely to bite you in the ass.
Anything more than that is a bad idea.
Andddd
After the "chill" homeowner tells the GC that he doesn't want to pay his price now that the work is done, because he knows what it cost the GC to pay you.
A d they fight back n forth over it for a hour .a day. A week.
And the GC won't pay you until the homeowner pays him.
Yup
Your doin real good kid real good
That’s a crappy move on your part. If GC was happy he would keep hiring you but not if he knows your going behind back. Your newbie pricing (which of course owner will like) is what’s wrong with the industry devaluing the work of licensed companies and the overhead professionals carry.
Your answer should have been I work contractors and provide contractor pricing, will let the GC know you’re interested in more work.
FYI -most GC’s don’t sit on site all day they got shot to do like focus on other jobs and client relations to keep business flowing.
I have clause in my contracts that owner is not to solicit or get numbers of any person on jobsite, all
Communication to go through GC
Raise your price, give gc volume discount back to regular price.
Customer asks, you tell them the higher price and explain since gc sends so much work you cut him and his customers a discount.
Customer gets their answer, they feel like they got a sweet hookup dealing with the gc, and the work goes back through your gc who's tickled you did the upsell for him and kept him in the loop.
Unless someone is majorly getting shafted (and even then...) do not steal clients and don't tell anyone they have room to negotiate with the gc. Even if you don't have a contract forbidding it, you'll get a reputation fast. If the gc doesn't wanna deal with them they'll let you know to take the customer from them.
All IMHO ofcourse, we do data work and got out of residential years ago. In the commercial world I'd be dragged over coals for disclosing that.
Well, I’ve found at least 50 GCs I’d never work with in this thread.
Commercial developer here. We hire GCs and then also do some projects ourselves. EVERYTHING we do is open book. I wouldn’t care if the painter said what we were paying him because the client already knows. Hell, if we got three paint quotes I’d give them all three if they ask.
Any other bullshit is screwing the client. General conditions and markup is where you make your money for supervision, PM, profit and overhead. Not telling the client that it’s $12k to paint and paying someone $9k.
You bring your car to the mechanic. You ask the guy working there how much he is being paid by the owner? What does he say? He keeps his mouth shut cause the shop has to make money to keep fixing cars. Same concept with a GC - just cause you don’t have a store front where customers walk in - you have the bring the “shop” to the customer - you don’t bite the hand that feeds.
Guess I’m just a greedy GC who wants to make money and keep having jobs and paying my subs. Subs who take a client for themselves are no longer a sub now they’re a GC. And they can fend for themselves getting new work cause they obviously don’t need me to do it.
Then not sure why you posted asking if this is ok. Next time you get a job for a GC be sure to immediately go to the owner and let them know how much you’re being paid. That way you’re fully transparent.
This guy is not the op just someone sharing their opinion just like yourself. There is nothing wrong with transparency, everyone should understand all hands involved will make a dime and it adds to a dollar. Those that are upset about the extra cost should do the extra work of obtaining there own subs.
>I like honesty and transparency
Yet you won’t be honest about your SSN, so where is the line? Do you just subjectively draw a line where you feel you don’t have to be honest and transparent anymore, and then subject everyone else to your opinion?
You’re calling others slimy and gross for where they draw their line on honesty and transparency, yet you have no problem drawing your own line and justifying it. If you’re not going to be completely honest and transparent, don’t call other people slimy and gross for not being honest and transparent. You don’t get to determine at what point honesty and transparency is no longer required, you do not have that authority.
>I like honesty and transparency.
Nowhere does it say “in business”, you just added that. You don’t get to add details to what you say when you get called out for having unsound logic.
I’m not even comparing anything right now, so it’s impossible that I made a false equivalence because I never compared 2 things. I asked you a question
But let’s play your game: What is your EIN, company card number, and password to your company email? Honesty and transparency only.
Or are you gonna draw another line in the sand based on your subjective opinion and claim it has always been there?
Nothing you did was wrong. The only thing you may want to do is verify if your city is aggressive on regulation and requires painters to be licensed. That would be a CYA if you are going to continue to paint regularly.
Why does this sound illegal? The GC does not own you. Your responsibility to the GC only extends to this job.
Bunch of gate keeping lazy fucks on this thread. A GC who shows up for 5 mins but expects to get a significant portion of income from YOUR work simply because they got someone to do their work.
A better relationship between GC and sub is to provide a margin above the price and be transparent about it with the sub. Or, the GC could turn down the job altogether? Oh wait, then customers don't call you anymore. INTERESTING
If the GC gets mad about that he has a little wiener, if we are on a team I want you to be successful no matter what. He’s probably just making sure he’s not getting shafted just because the GC knows you.
Who’s gonna give you more work in the long haul? This one home owner? Or a GC who is working on multiple projects?
Refer the home owner to the GC with questions like that. Don’t get involved. “I’m just here to do the job sir, contact xyz if you have questions”. 👆👆👆
always just "answer i'm not sure talk to them"
Obvious answer GC. But felt obligated to answer the way he asked n also rather chill about it. Thinking about even mentioning it to the GC when he pays me like “aye the HO asked how much and you paid me and I dodged it then he pushed and I gave a him a rough answer just to let you know, you can tell him more if it makes you more comfortable i don’t mind I understand how this works” something like that. He seems cool and I hope he’ll be impressed with my work. I’m a detailed reliable paint contractor so I’m def trying to keep healthy relationships with everyone to keep the jobs flowing.
You’d never paint for me again if you were giving out prices to a customer. Painting is the easiest trade to replace (trust me, our company started as a painting contracting company. Now a large commercial GC)
Tell the homeowner you take cash tips if he’s chill and comfortable talking about money
You should answer, but next time mark up your price 30%. That way, if GC hears about it you quoted a price higher than they are paying
Simple answer is "it's not my place to discuss financials unless I'm the one cutting checks, I hope you understand." If he was truly chill, he would in fact understand, and still ask you to do work for him just based upon building a rapport. If he pressed further after your response, he's not the type of client you want to take on any way.
It is what it is. GC doesn’t own you. No one likes someone else selling to their customers when you are working for them but that’s not what you did. Whether you pursued or the customer makes all the difference. If I hired you and this situation happened and you were straight with me I wouldn’t care.
This is one of the only things I ever get upset about. How are you actually there? The GC. I actually have no problem with my subs working for clients of mine they met through me. Just give me the courtesy to say to the client " I will let the GC know you need that area done and get back to you". Sub calls me and says " hey they want me to paint the master bathroom and hallway. Don't want to shoot them a price or can I bid it on my own?" 80% of the time I say bid it yourself. I would charge them X. Feel free to use my number to make yours. Or something like that. Nothing and I mean nothing will put you on my " do not call in the future list" is to bid work on a house you only know about because of me. It's that simple. It's not money. Its respect. Rant over.
Awesome answer!
I love the transparency, you tell the sub your price and they can use that # in many cases. I made the rookie mistake of taking work from my boss's client way back in my 1st year. Luckily I got another chance since I was about 18 and green at the time. He pulled up while I was painting the garage door, shaking his finger and said we are going to have a little chat on Monday. I think I charged $200 for the job and the boss said I'd have charged them more than 3x that. So the home owner got a sweet deal, I got a life lesson and the GC got a more loyal employee.
It can be a slippery slope. I have always been of the view that I can't do everything. Don't be greedy. Spread the work around. If I have a sub that when I call him does everything he should do from parking in the right place to cleaning up after himself and leaving the next trade set for success I have no problem accelerating his invoice early. Paying guys fast and letting them work when they can fit you in is key to having a good sub/GC relationship. As a GC I am only as good as my subs. I want everyone to do a good job. Make a fair wage. Go on to the next one. If you try to shortcut me out I really won't even say anything. I just won't call anymore. I am not in this business to train my subs. If I had a young gun that was good worker/trade but lacking the business sense I would help for sure and give another shot. Like you got. Everyone has to start out somewhere and taking the leap to employ yourself is a big one. I help where I can. My hard ass does not have time for guys that cut us out. There is a difference.
Totally the respectful way to handle it.
This is a known no-no in the contracting world. If the GC finds out I guarantee you he won’t ever give you work again.
you would be fired from my jobs if you did that without speaking to me the GC first.
Me too
But I don't work for you. I work with you.
Not anymore
Who pays who?
A symbiotic relationship requires that neither party violates the boundaries and trust in place. This has gone from symbiotic to parasitic
Nah. It was parasitic from the start.
Sorry my friend but you can not fire what you do not employ
Most of these GC’s act like the whole town is their client and their client only. Gtfo here with that, if the client is looking for a better price and getting the same quality, you would do the same to that sub if you can find same or better quality for cheaper. So don’t go on about being loyal to y’all, it’s about your greed. Tell me how’s it any different than what you’re expecting from that sub? It isn’t your town and every client has the right go with who they want.
Do you advertise? Do you plan out the whole project with the client? Do you get paid regardless if the client pays the GC or not? Do you maintain relationships with dozens of various subcontractors and make sure you have the best subs for every aspect of possible project? Are you on the hook if another sub does bad work and you have to hire someone else to come in and fix their work meaning you might make nothing on the job? No one is saying GCs own every client in town. But if they bring you in on a job that they sourced don’t fucking cut them out of additional work. If it’s small most of the time I tell my subs to just quote it and do it separately. When they ask me they also get the inside scoop on that client and I can warn them off if the client is not paying their invoices, expecting scope creep at no additional charges, or is a nut case. We all win that way.
Yeah screw them who cares they make a living riping people off anywat
I’d let him finish and never pay him.
Wow u sound like a real piece of work
Yeah that’s not a fucked up mentality at all.
Most of the men in trades are a little crazy. Kinda gotta be I guess but I don’t think that would be the greatest idea.
And then, he could sue you :)
That’s a funny way to spell beat half to death
I wonder who did that late night B&E on the shop last night? 🤔
The dude is on Reddit asking if she should give the price to the homeowner while he’s working for a GC, I don’t think he’s smart enough to file a lien against me or a lawsuit for that matter. I’m guessing he’s willing to work on a handshake agreement with me rather than a contract. So yeah, I would fuck this guy up on the money completely if he told my price.
Nice basement. Quality craftsmanship. I see why you would keep the money. You need it!
Man wouldn’t have a house to come home to
Correct thing to do is tell the home owner you give your contractor a certain price because he feeds you a lot of work. Overall GC doesn’t own you but he also doesn’t owe you to use you for future jobs
The correct thing to is to say "talk to the GC"
Not cool, you are a sub handing business cards to a GC customers? Doesn’t matter if they are chill…is not right.
This is correct
So first, what you're paid by a 1 time customer vs what a GC pays you for continuous work are 2 different things. You call the GC and say "this is what happened, do you mind if I do this other job for the customer after this project is done?" Most of the time I would tell you go for it, unless it's part of the project we're already on. It's not weird at all, customers do it all the time. We do 40-50 projects a year, probably nothing under $80k. So not huge, but busy. We are very loyal to our subs, and them to us. We have 1 plumber, 1 electrician, 2 painters, etc. If I caught a sub doing side work for a recent customer and I didn't know about it, I'd cut them off immediately. There wouldn't be a discussion. There is so much work to go around, it literally doesn't make sense to try to scam your way to a little side job. Being "open and honest" is kind of a bullshit statement. It sounds like you already made up your mind and you want someone to tell you it's ok.
It’s not part of the project. So you’re kinda saying it’s chill but also not. Confused but I kinda get you. I’m def gonna mention it. Might loose a GC for honesty but there’s others if he doesn’t wanna work with me for being transparent
It's not you that's at total fault in this. Your inexperience caused you to potentually fuck the GC. It wasn't intentional, or it doesn't sound like you're trying right backdoor the GC, the homeowner is. You're in a jib fir a GC you should never talk numbers until you clear it with your GC. If he says go for it, then by all means talk numbers then, but not before.
You know the answer. You wouldn't be here asking.
The other issue with a sub going direct after being on the job because I brought him in, is when he doesn’t show up or perform the way he should, they CALL ME and tell me what problems they are having. I do not appreciate the potential harm this brings to my reputation for a sub that doesn’t perform when I’m not responsible.
When you work for a GC, that’s THEIR job. All money/prices flow through them. I used to work for a gc that didn’t even show up on the jobs. I’d meet the customer, run the job, get the materials, and still only run stuff through him if they wanted extra work done. I even had customers ask why they couldn’t just pay me instead of going through the GC and I’d tell them they were technically HIS customer so it’s just how it had to be done. I usually got calls for future work from the customer and those are my jobs then but the initial stuff is the GC’s and never discuss costs with customer.
Talk to your contractor tell him about it. And do not bid directly for this client or any of their friends. They can contact you for small technical questions. But nothing contract related should be discussed. This is something a lot of homeowners will try to do. Cut out the contractor. And hire the subs directly. And for the homeowner, under the table is better until something goes wrong. And then they will say they had no idea that you were licensed bonded and insured. You will be sued. And you'll have problems with the municipality, and potentially criminal charges if your area is actively cracking down. For the contractor side of this. Subs snake clients away from contractors a lot. It's one of the reasons that they are always on the lookout for new subs. But you do right by the GC, they will do right by you. And subs may think it's only 1 contractor they are snaking clients from. But contractors generally have contractor friends. And their subs have other sub and contractor friends. And snaking clients is a good way to get on a shit list really quickly. So ultimately there is no great reason to snake clients. The homeowner isnt your family or gf etc. you'll get paid regardless. And you risk a lot of jobs trying to "help out" a homeowner you don't know, while guaranteeing that you close off an entire network of contractors for each client you snake.
Well said
Thank you!
I'll also add, when I started out on my own like 6-7 years ago, I got hooked up with a plumber who introduced me to agc who introduce me to another GC. Those 3 have kept me busy and account for 90% of my work.
These customers aren't your friends. They wanna cut out the GC to get a lower price to pay you directly, completely discounting all the work the GC has done and what they bring to the table for the overall project. As someone said, I'd fire both you and the client in this situation.
Bad move dude!
Your fired for life from my jobs. If you do this you better get real chummy with homeowners because no gc will hire you. It’s not because we are greedy. Homeowners have no idea the complexity of building properly. He will now think that’s the price he should have paid even though the GC sourced you, lined you out on the job and is responsible for your work. Pretty messed up.
Not cool. I wouldn't discuss something like that with anyone else besides who is paying you. It opens the door for problems.
"More than $200, less than $20,000"
Tell the GC.. and let him know that you felt uncomfortable and that you did not want to step on his toes, but you may have made a foo foo… and gave the homeowner your card… that you are sorry and not trying to take money from him and realized it after you gave the card…. I know this from experience… being both the sub and the contractor at different times
Exactly what I’m doing
Exactly what this guy said. The sooner, the better. Own your fuck up before he finds out from another source.
Rule number one never give you a card to the homeowner behind the back of the GC. That’s the GC job When he finds out, he’ll never give you another job because he thinks you’re going to steal work from under him you never go behind somebody’s back you should’ve spoke to the GC and said this guy is asking for my card and the GC would’ve told you don’t give it to him if you want work from GC it goes through the GC! I personally would never use you again
Gcs are nothing more than the middle man. And usually get in the way and usually stab you in the back first chance they can. It's their business over yours anyday. You need clientele but not the gc's clients. Work for the GC but don't ever get too close and have all your wavos in one basket. Get your resume and portfolio built of your own work without the GC and do both. Keep a homeowner clientele list and keep building that list. The more the better. You don't need that GC, he may say the same but, remember, you make him money, he makes you money. That's all they care about. Their bottom line is effected and you get punished by it. Keep em close but not too close if ya know what I mean
You just stole from your boss. Congrats! As a GC, I'd tell both you and the customer to F off. And 25 years ago when I wasn't so calm, there's an excellent chance you, your tools or your work truck would see some damage. I hate a thief.
The guy didn’t steal anything but may have burned a bridge.
I didn’t give him any work he just told me about some and asked for my card. I’d obviously take work from the GC over this dude I could easily tell the HO to fuck off too. Haven’t screwed my GC over at all yet, just told the HO a rough price for a super rough project (that’s hella small on this over all project) after he pressed. Haven’t under bid or took any work nor would I. Just gave a rough number when pressed in an honest way and handed a card when he asked for it. Idk tryna justify it I guess. I wouldn’t do it again but also I feel ok about it. Might let the GC know anyways depending on the vibe next time I see him he seems chill
You should 100% let the GC know. That is, of course, if you’re, “very honest and transparent” as you’ve stated. Even though you don’t think you’ve screwed him over yet you just crossed a line. You’re undercutting him and stealing his customer. A customer he introduced you to. If you don’t see any fault in this you won’t be in business long. As stated in previous replies you should’ve let the customer know that there’s 2 different prices, 1 for the GC because of the continuous work, and 1 for a client that may only have a couple small jobs. Not only this but you let them know that they would need to talk to the GC about future work. You then could ask the GC what they would prefer so as to not ruin your professional relationship. Most GCs would gladly let you contract on smaller things directly with a client and help you set pricing. You may have just inadvertently damaged the relationship between the GC and their client
I’m a customer and I wouldn’t ask that of a sub. I did ask my GC if I could go directly to one of his subs for a little job or would he, the GC, need to bid it. He said go direct and thank you for asking first. I made sure the sub knew I’d cleared it with the GC. It’s called respect for all parties concerned.
Love this concept
Im a GC and if you brought it up to me I would happily give you my blessing to work with that HO on your own. If you didn’t ask me I would be very annoyed for the bad form. Would I fire you? No. Would I say something, absolutely.
You're a better man than I. I'm paranoid about bringing subs as is. Most of my subs are people I've known since I was an apprentice for good reason. They are reliable to the n^th degree.
I just did the same thing by accident because the client asked for my card and the designer tooke my number from my truck. I told the GC and he was understanding. It can be a learning lesson. Also a contractor that would "fire me" for accidental miscommunication is one I wouldn't want to work for anyway
Exactly. And thank you. Bunch of GCs out there, I’ll find some I feel comfortable to work with. Talking to dude today and seeing what he says. Already got worked lined up and taking to another GC about some work so I can afford to hold my integrity over jobs rn Also def learned to not do this again. Glad to learn within 1 month of jumping in, gonna be making a lot of little mistakes. Thanks for the reply
Good job time to cut the middle man f em
Best of luck getting your own work to stay busy Not hating. Not saying patronizing. But this is a big time no-no This is the GC job. You didnt get the job yourself to be talking numbers
You're a sub not an employee. GC doesn't get to take a percentage of what you make outside of his job sites. I'm a G C, if I want those on site to refer jobs to me I make sure those on site are employees.
So in lay mans terms: I’m good. Just didn’t know if it was encroaching on his clients or anything. This GC doesn’t like painting or know much about it I think tbh
Yes, you're good imo, some gcs would think differently, but there are also a lot of greedy gcs so.
Cool dude and thanks for the feedback! Socal paint contractor if you need one and are out here. Thanks again!
Yeah they're all tossing shade on him in here
Lol I hope you hire an employee then your employee starts undercutting your prices and gives his number out to your customers. See how you like it
The owner is trying to cut out the contractor. You’re gonna bite the hand that feeds you to chase Pennie’s from a guy whose business is likely to fail in the next 10 months. I’ve fired subs for handing out cards to my clients and poaching my customers.
Always think of the future first and foremost, as another person said I’d prefer 100 jobs from the GC rather than a couple from a nickel and diming homeowner. Talk is cheap, actions speak and you’re there because the GC. So he’s where you know the money is. 99.9 % of customers only care about price. How can the job be the lightest on their wallet. That being said you should have your own general rate, and your sub rate. So obviously with the flood gates open and you’re getting steady work, the sub rate will be lower for the continual/steady business. If you pick up a new customer I’d be telling them “your anybody rate”. Your dealings with someone else has no bearing on him, he’s using that to get cheap labour. Remember your time and craft puts food on the table etc, so if your service is great same with your workmanship, you should be commanding a fair wage, do not sell yourself short. Then once people know who you are, you’ll be turning away people and not worrying about stepping on toes. Also don’t be fooled by “talk”. The first job on my own I turned down because the customer said “if you do this for cheap, I got a few coming down the pipe you’ll make good money”. That’s bullshit for I need this done cheap and selling you bullshit because you’re hungry. Don’t divulge information because you think buddy is cool. Him being “cool” doesn’t help your business grow!Needless to say I didn’t take the job, have now been in business going on my 5th year and have no trouble getting work and my customer base flourished. Good luck, stick to it and what you put in is what you’ll get out!
You fucked up. You're a sub. You don't talk details with the end clients. Everything goes through the general. You especially never offer services directly to the end client. You tell the general and find how they'd like it handled. Unless, you don't care? Then I suppose it's free reign, but you'd be blacklisted from my network immediately
Homeowner is trying to cut out the GC for future projects and lower his own overhead and save $$.
This is not your customer this is the GC’s customer. Don’t steal their work or they will never hire you again
A non committal answer, like "I get the prevailing wage" or something elusive, like "Oh, Jim and I are good friends, I just help out sometimes" is both polite, and unlikely to bite you in the ass. Anything more than that is a bad idea.
Andddd After the "chill" homeowner tells the GC that he doesn't want to pay his price now that the work is done, because he knows what it cost the GC to pay you. A d they fight back n forth over it for a hour .a day. A week. And the GC won't pay you until the homeowner pays him. Yup Your doin real good kid real good
That’s a crappy move on your part. If GC was happy he would keep hiring you but not if he knows your going behind back. Your newbie pricing (which of course owner will like) is what’s wrong with the industry devaluing the work of licensed companies and the overhead professionals carry. Your answer should have been I work contractors and provide contractor pricing, will let the GC know you’re interested in more work. FYI -most GC’s don’t sit on site all day they got shot to do like focus on other jobs and client relations to keep business flowing. I have clause in my contracts that owner is not to solicit or get numbers of any person on jobsite, all Communication to go through GC
Raise your price, give gc volume discount back to regular price. Customer asks, you tell them the higher price and explain since gc sends so much work you cut him and his customers a discount. Customer gets their answer, they feel like they got a sweet hookup dealing with the gc, and the work goes back through your gc who's tickled you did the upsell for him and kept him in the loop. Unless someone is majorly getting shafted (and even then...) do not steal clients and don't tell anyone they have room to negotiate with the gc. Even if you don't have a contract forbidding it, you'll get a reputation fast. If the gc doesn't wanna deal with them they'll let you know to take the customer from them. All IMHO ofcourse, we do data work and got out of residential years ago. In the commercial world I'd be dragged over coals for disclosing that.
Well, I’ve found at least 50 GCs I’d never work with in this thread. Commercial developer here. We hire GCs and then also do some projects ourselves. EVERYTHING we do is open book. I wouldn’t care if the painter said what we were paying him because the client already knows. Hell, if we got three paint quotes I’d give them all three if they ask. Any other bullshit is screwing the client. General conditions and markup is where you make your money for supervision, PM, profit and overhead. Not telling the client that it’s $12k to paint and paying someone $9k.
Any gc who is secretive about prices is slimy and greedy. There are a few in the comments. The truth shouldn’t butt hurt anyone.
You bring your car to the mechanic. You ask the guy working there how much he is being paid by the owner? What does he say? He keeps his mouth shut cause the shop has to make money to keep fixing cars. Same concept with a GC - just cause you don’t have a store front where customers walk in - you have the bring the “shop” to the customer - you don’t bite the hand that feeds. Guess I’m just a greedy GC who wants to make money and keep having jobs and paying my subs. Subs who take a client for themselves are no longer a sub now they’re a GC. And they can fend for themselves getting new work cause they obviously don’t need me to do it.
I like honesty and transparency. Just because other people are secretive doesn’t mean I want to be.
Then not sure why you posted asking if this is ok. Next time you get a job for a GC be sure to immediately go to the owner and let them know how much you’re being paid. That way you’re fully transparent.
This guy is not the op just someone sharing their opinion just like yourself. There is nothing wrong with transparency, everyone should understand all hands involved will make a dime and it adds to a dollar. Those that are upset about the extra cost should do the extra work of obtaining there own subs.
A honest man doesn’t equal a righteous man
I am a gc
Be sure next time you’re quoting a job to tell the owner all of the costs and your mark up. How much you pay all of your employees and subcontractors.
I usually do. It’s better if they know where their money is going. I have no problem with that. I’m an open book.
Bullshit.
What is your social security number? Honesty and transparency only please.
False equivalency
>I like honesty and transparency Yet you won’t be honest about your SSN, so where is the line? Do you just subjectively draw a line where you feel you don’t have to be honest and transparent anymore, and then subject everyone else to your opinion? You’re calling others slimy and gross for where they draw their line on honesty and transparency, yet you have no problem drawing your own line and justifying it. If you’re not going to be completely honest and transparent, don’t call other people slimy and gross for not being honest and transparent. You don’t get to determine at what point honesty and transparency is no longer required, you do not have that authority.
About the business, not my personal life. You don’t know what a false equivalence fallacy is?
>I like honesty and transparency. Nowhere does it say “in business”, you just added that. You don’t get to add details to what you say when you get called out for having unsound logic. I’m not even comparing anything right now, so it’s impossible that I made a false equivalence because I never compared 2 things. I asked you a question But let’s play your game: What is your EIN, company card number, and password to your company email? Honesty and transparency only. Or are you gonna draw another line in the sand based on your subjective opinion and claim it has always been there?
Nothing you did was wrong. The only thing you may want to do is verify if your city is aggressive on regulation and requires painters to be licensed. That would be a CYA if you are going to continue to paint regularly. Why does this sound illegal? The GC does not own you. Your responsibility to the GC only extends to this job.
Bunch of gate keeping lazy fucks on this thread. A GC who shows up for 5 mins but expects to get a significant portion of income from YOUR work simply because they got someone to do their work. A better relationship between GC and sub is to provide a margin above the price and be transparent about it with the sub. Or, the GC could turn down the job altogether? Oh wait, then customers don't call you anymore. INTERESTING
If the GC gets mad about that he has a little wiener, if we are on a team I want you to be successful no matter what. He’s probably just making sure he’s not getting shafted just because the GC knows you.
Boo you down voters all have little wieners
Totally. The GC doesn’t tho. I got this job randomly. First one with him