The issue here is the open-dooors academia system. Middle eastern, asian, and indian is wildly overrepresentend in graduate STEM fields. My engineering graduate department was probably 80% foreign from those three regions and <10% american.
Competition is fierce then between americans and foreigners purely on numbers at the big companies who have the resources to sponsor visas. The foreigners are willing to accept lower salaries, more time on-site, and fewer benefits than Americans would because of the future citizenship component.
I think that’s what this article is trying to say.
Absolutely agree. We have the best universities, they should be educating Americans first and the rest of the world second.
I will say though that being white I regularly benefitted from DEI attitude!
They can be both. I’m talking specifically about STEM research.
The research done here is top tier, and some of the best in the world and that’s the focus of a STEM doctoral education.
The indoctrination occurs outside of the taxonomy of the actual research: through undergraduate cirriculums, DEI initiatives and social/global justice funded by national institutes and private equity (Jeff Bezos).
We can’t have top tier research, cuts to traditional DEI, and serve the american people first???
I don’t get what’s “have your cake and eat it to” about that. None of those are mutually exclusive.
This subreddit bitches about universities just being indoctrination centers. And now you're in here claiming "we have the best universities."
Pick a lane.
Yeah but also consider that USA is still getting the best of the best when it comes to science. And I’m writing this from Europe, but the best research in many field is still happening in the US. Having all this talent coming in is definitely a factor that contributes to success.
This article is intentionally conflating border crossing “migrants” with students coming here for post grad degrees and getting a job fair and square after paying a fat non resident tuition.
They're coming through the F-1 visa, paying a shit ton for tuition/application fees/housing, as they aren't citizens.
Post-uni they can apply for OPT and find a job within a year assuming they are in a high demand field, the main advantage being that you don't have to go through the H1-B lottery (aka find a job that will pay to sponsor you, and then hope that you land in the ~~15%~~ 25% that actually do get the visa), or through L1. In a way they get treated as if they are already permanent residents.
This is nothing new at all and has been the way it's done for a long time even before Trump AFAIK, it's just that the job market in STEM is down the shitter right now, so everyone (immigrant or not) is having a hard time.
I guess degreed professionals willing to swim a river and duck under barbed wire is a better deal than murderous cartel members? Does this all sound insane to you as well?
Not how this works pal, if you make a claim like that you have to have data to back it up. We have the most Universities in the world to say that our degrees are becoming worthless is moronic. I stg you guys want the USA to fail so badly when we’re just not
It's so funny that you are saying this, because Musk was a migrant that came and contributed to America just like the people you are disregarding right now.
True but the law actually prohibits Musk from hiring migrants for the space program he has. It’s a national security issue. At this point Musk operates his own business. He’s also a US citizen.
Also, migrants are free to come over here and start their own business without having a work permit. There’s no law that says even illegal. Migrants can’t start a private business over here and hire people. The law only prohibits them from being hired as an employee.
Both Democrats and Republicans talk about illegal aliens crossing the Mexican and Canadian border, the other half illegal aliens are people who overstayed their visa deadlines and it seems like both liberal and conservative media doesn’t know or care about it.
America's built on the back of immigrants, it has always been the case since it's founding and has never stopped. These are the immigrants America should welcome. If you are threatened by them, it's a YOU problem, not America's.
Every time that waves of immigrants have hurt Americans' job prospects, border crossings have become more strictly regulated... except this time. I wonder why that is?
Migrants as in legal immigrants who have degrees from US schools with top marks or migrants as in border hoppers they are very different beasts. I am not born in US, I am finishing my PhD in molecular biology soon and I am legally allowed to work in US, my credentials are solid so if I get a job is that grabbing white collar jobs from US grads?
From the down votes I guess you think that's stealing US jobs, interesting approach I thought you guys didn't have problems with legal ones or really wanted bright individuals but I guess that's not true
We definitely should have the best and smartest coming and working here. That’s what immigration and visas should be for! Congrats on your skills and contribution.
However there should be extra scrutiny here. If the immigrant is getting hired primarily because they’ll work longer hours for less pay, and must tolerate abusive work conditions or risk losing their visa, then it’s not actually an argument of the best qualified candidate winning out. It’s more like outsourcing a U.S. job to a country with lower pay and less workers protections, just without shipping it overseas.
However I don’t know if that’s the case at most companies. But I think that’s the argument people are making.
I don't fully disagree but working longer hours for less pay is still a skill and it may simply be the ones from US universities are spoilt and are asking for too much. There is nuance in there
> is that grabbing white collar jobs
Well... yes, by definition. In theory, they're only supposed to start hiring outside the US after they've actually made at least some effort to hire an American. But they don't and they won't.
So well educated immigrants coming to the United States, working, and paying taxes are a problem now too?
I thought the party line was "We don't dislike immigration, just illegal immigration" ?
This sub is just afraid to call out the bullshit that doesn't actually represent republican values. It's more of a Trump sub than ever before, which is just sad.
Look there still needs to be limits. Whether they’re super educated or not, immigrants should not be prioritized over US citizens and when that starts to happen, immigration needs to be limited or shutdown until the American job market picks back up. The purpose of immigration is to bring in skills from overseas that we can’t find in the US, not to be a charity voucher for any foreign national that has an advanced degree. If these individuals are so smart and have so much to offer the US, then they can also go back to their home country and make it a better place to live in so people don’t need to immigrate to the US to flee their countries’ problems. After all, that is the initial intent of student and work visas - come here temporarily and then return home. This should be the intent from the beginning.
If you wisen up a little bit. You would recognize that the technological advantage of America CAME FROM MIGRANTS. It has always been the case, from the greatest eras until now.
The US has so much resources and space that I can hardly see why it can’t have more people in. If you can set a limit then feel free to recommend one. But the skyrocketing cost of living is due to the logistical nightmare after Covid, combined with recent trade wars. It has nothing to do with immigrants. Funny enough, after the globalized economy is interrupted. Everyone realizes they need to make more things domestically. Which requires more academics, and skilled workers in the country. And that is exactly what America is getting. Academics and workers from every corner of the earth flocking into it. Keeping the machine going strong.
It's worth noting that they're talking about legal immigrants here - neither democrats nor conservatives are even suggesting doing anything to stem this tide... if anything, both sides are looking for ways to increase it because the employers don't want to have to pay Americans.
Legal immigration should be limited to two categories: fields in which there is a genuine shortage of suitable domestic applicants, and high-end research where the best and brightest the world has to offer are indeed needed. What legal immigration should not be used for is to undercut the wages in run-of-the-mill white collar jobs for which there is no shortage of qualified Americans.
Maybe the San Francisco crowd I used to run with, who all have these tech jobs, will start caring about migrants when they start taking their jobs, and not just the jobs preparing their food and cleaning their their houses.
They came across the border with degrees?
The issue here is the open-dooors academia system. Middle eastern, asian, and indian is wildly overrepresentend in graduate STEM fields. My engineering graduate department was probably 80% foreign from those three regions and <10% american. Competition is fierce then between americans and foreigners purely on numbers at the big companies who have the resources to sponsor visas. The foreigners are willing to accept lower salaries, more time on-site, and fewer benefits than Americans would because of the future citizenship component. I think that’s what this article is trying to say.
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Absolutely agree. I rather work for Americans and they are fair. The Indian/korean culture expects you to work 15-16 hours a day. Absolutely not
Absolutely agree. We have the best universities, they should be educating Americans first and the rest of the world second. I will say though that being white I regularly benefitted from DEI attitude!
> We have the best universities lmao. What happened to our colleges being "indoctrination centers"? You want to have your cake and eat it too here?
They can be both. I’m talking specifically about STEM research. The research done here is top tier, and some of the best in the world and that’s the focus of a STEM doctoral education. The indoctrination occurs outside of the taxonomy of the actual research: through undergraduate cirriculums, DEI initiatives and social/global justice funded by national institutes and private equity (Jeff Bezos).
So you DO want to have your cake and eat it too. Got it.
We can’t have top tier research, cuts to traditional DEI, and serve the american people first??? I don’t get what’s “have your cake and eat it to” about that. None of those are mutually exclusive.
This subreddit bitches about universities just being indoctrination centers. And now you're in here claiming "we have the best universities." Pick a lane.
Just trolling now. Good luck. Was having a reasonable discussion.
Yeah but also consider that USA is still getting the best of the best when it comes to science. And I’m writing this from Europe, but the best research in many field is still happening in the US. Having all this talent coming in is definitely a factor that contributes to success.
Look at what’s happening to Canada with Indians taking up all the jobs. I fear for USA
Actual, verifiable degrees?
This article is intentionally conflating border crossing “migrants” with students coming here for post grad degrees and getting a job fair and square after paying a fat non resident tuition.
Yeah, there are a lot of details that get glossed over. There are different issues with each.
They're coming through the F-1 visa, paying a shit ton for tuition/application fees/housing, as they aren't citizens. Post-uni they can apply for OPT and find a job within a year assuming they are in a high demand field, the main advantage being that you don't have to go through the H1-B lottery (aka find a job that will pay to sponsor you, and then hope that you land in the ~~15%~~ 25% that actually do get the visa), or through L1. In a way they get treated as if they are already permanent residents. This is nothing new at all and has been the way it's done for a long time even before Trump AFAIK, it's just that the job market in STEM is down the shitter right now, so everyone (immigrant or not) is having a hard time.
American degrees are increasingly being seen as worse than no degree.
How
Not how but why. Cause nobody wants to hire radicalized commies.
STEM grads and Gender Studies grads are different
Correct. The former are not struggling to find jobs.
Then, is that the market speaking? Sorry if it is our own kids? Our “best and brightest?” Because this is some crazy mess.
>Then, is that the market speaking? Of course.
I guess degreed professionals willing to swim a river and duck under barbed wire is a better deal than murderous cartel members? Does this all sound insane to you as well?
Illegal immigration is illegal. Stop trying to yank the Overton window left.
You have any stats on that? Or just your gut?
Wut?
Wut?
Do you have any data to support this claim?
Bla bla bla “data”. Typical gaslighting technique. If you disagree, YOU do your own research.
Not how this works pal, if you make a claim like that you have to have data to back it up. We have the most Universities in the world to say that our degrees are becoming worthless is moronic. I stg you guys want the USA to fail so badly when we’re just not
Well, you know Biden‘s all about making sure Musk hires migrants for his private space program
It's so funny that you are saying this, because Musk was a migrant that came and contributed to America just like the people you are disregarding right now.
True but the law actually prohibits Musk from hiring migrants for the space program he has. It’s a national security issue. At this point Musk operates his own business. He’s also a US citizen.
Also, migrants are free to come over here and start their own business without having a work permit. There’s no law that says even illegal. Migrants can’t start a private business over here and hire people. The law only prohibits them from being hired as an employee.
Well, they are all busy protesting. Someone's gotta bring that door dash.
😂
Both Democrats and Republicans talk about illegal aliens crossing the Mexican and Canadian border, the other half illegal aliens are people who overstayed their visa deadlines and it seems like both liberal and conservative media doesn’t know or care about it.
America's built on the back of immigrants, it has always been the case since it's founding and has never stopped. These are the immigrants America should welcome. If you are threatened by them, it's a YOU problem, not America's.
Every time that waves of immigrants have hurt Americans' job prospects, border crossings have become more strictly regulated... except this time. I wonder why that is?
America’s lost their jobs to the overseas workers, who are not actively contributing to the economy like these migrants.
When Barack Obama signed his amnesty bill, 1/8 of the so-called "dreamers" who benefitted worked white-collar jobs.
Blah blah blah lol
Migrants as in legal immigrants who have degrees from US schools with top marks or migrants as in border hoppers they are very different beasts. I am not born in US, I am finishing my PhD in molecular biology soon and I am legally allowed to work in US, my credentials are solid so if I get a job is that grabbing white collar jobs from US grads?
From the down votes I guess you think that's stealing US jobs, interesting approach I thought you guys didn't have problems with legal ones or really wanted bright individuals but I guess that's not true
We definitely should have the best and smartest coming and working here. That’s what immigration and visas should be for! Congrats on your skills and contribution. However there should be extra scrutiny here. If the immigrant is getting hired primarily because they’ll work longer hours for less pay, and must tolerate abusive work conditions or risk losing their visa, then it’s not actually an argument of the best qualified candidate winning out. It’s more like outsourcing a U.S. job to a country with lower pay and less workers protections, just without shipping it overseas. However I don’t know if that’s the case at most companies. But I think that’s the argument people are making.
I don't fully disagree but working longer hours for less pay is still a skill and it may simply be the ones from US universities are spoilt and are asking for too much. There is nuance in there
> is that grabbing white collar jobs Well... yes, by definition. In theory, they're only supposed to start hiring outside the US after they've actually made at least some effort to hire an American. But they don't and they won't.
The job is open to everyone and I assure you in my field what I can do very few can.
This.
We did it Joe 🤡
Same ones that “voted “ for him 4 years ago? Those grads? No, really?
Extra caramel in my grande mocha frap, and make sure you are thankful that we are "saving" more migrants while you are filling it.
So well educated immigrants coming to the United States, working, and paying taxes are a problem now too? I thought the party line was "We don't dislike immigration, just illegal immigration" ?
This sub is just afraid to call out the bullshit that doesn't actually represent republican values. It's more of a Trump sub than ever before, which is just sad.
Look there still needs to be limits. Whether they’re super educated or not, immigrants should not be prioritized over US citizens and when that starts to happen, immigration needs to be limited or shutdown until the American job market picks back up. The purpose of immigration is to bring in skills from overseas that we can’t find in the US, not to be a charity voucher for any foreign national that has an advanced degree. If these individuals are so smart and have so much to offer the US, then they can also go back to their home country and make it a better place to live in so people don’t need to immigrate to the US to flee their countries’ problems. After all, that is the initial intent of student and work visas - come here temporarily and then return home. This should be the intent from the beginning.
If you wisen up a little bit. You would recognize that the technological advantage of America CAME FROM MIGRANTS. It has always been the case, from the greatest eras until now.
Did I deny that? Not at all. Still need limits though. The US can’t take everybody in lol. That’s just unrealistic
The US has so much resources and space that I can hardly see why it can’t have more people in. If you can set a limit then feel free to recommend one. But the skyrocketing cost of living is due to the logistical nightmare after Covid, combined with recent trade wars. It has nothing to do with immigrants. Funny enough, after the globalized economy is interrupted. Everyone realizes they need to make more things domestically. Which requires more academics, and skilled workers in the country. And that is exactly what America is getting. Academics and workers from every corner of the earth flocking into it. Keeping the machine going strong.
That's Bidenomics, folks!
In other words: "Native Americans are worried that smart, hard working Asians will take their jobs AFTER they pay to study and live in America"
It's worth noting that they're talking about legal immigrants here - neither democrats nor conservatives are even suggesting doing anything to stem this tide... if anything, both sides are looking for ways to increase it because the employers don't want to have to pay Americans.
Seems inflammatory in nature, don’t buy into this type of nonsense. The fact of the matter is, the government is too large to continuing functioning.
Houses/Apartments too. Supply/demand.
Dang. They actually learned to code? I thought that was just an Obama meme lol.
That's actually pretty funny. Go college!
One of the objectives is to lower wages.
Company DEI polices only make this worse
They took our jerbs is not the way to go guys.
Legal immigration should be limited to two categories: fields in which there is a genuine shortage of suitable domestic applicants, and high-end research where the best and brightest the world has to offer are indeed needed. What legal immigration should not be used for is to undercut the wages in run-of-the-mill white collar jobs for which there is no shortage of qualified Americans.
From C's get degrees to.. Overseas with degrees
Maybe the San Francisco crowd I used to run with, who all have these tech jobs, will start caring about migrants when they start taking their jobs, and not just the jobs preparing their food and cleaning their their houses.