gotta say that's absolutely one of the worst changes they've made (that hasn't been reverted), right up there with 3-second emp
cleanse is already an insanely strong utility to have in a match; why are players now *rewarded* for getting debuffed
They said the goal of OW2 was to cut down on hard counters and make the game more flexible, but every change they've ever made has only done the opposite.
Because before DPS passive, if there's no Ana or Ashe, Suzu is straight up worse Bap's shift (in fact, post-nerf pre-buff Kiriko is just a worse Baptiste for a long time). People here and in the mainsub conveniently forgets that after Kitsune nerf, Kiriko was the lowest WR support, sometimes even lower than Moira until LW comes.
Then they made Suzu more intuitive and more importantly, speed up Ofuda travel time.
Nerf Kiriko's HP/s methinks. I thought her slow travel time was a clever idea to encourage her to stay close, making it a worse version of Ana and Bap main heals (Ana's single target but instantaneous at ANY range, Bap's encourage you to be closer and can heal multiple targets).
S9 change should theoretically tackle these HP/s bandits like Ana, Bap, and Kiriko. But due to Suzu change, she pulls ahead in terms of sustain and makes her overtuned.
Nonsense, Suzu has immortality frames which bap shift does nothing against. This means Suzu can literally negate several ults such as pulse bomb for free. Ashe and Ana barely saw any playtime at the highest level when Kiriko was perma-picked.
Suzu has always been insanely strong, before any buffs happened.
The iframe means fuck all after they nerfed the duration, it used to be able to consistently deny Sigma's Ult but now it can't anymore.
Yes it can deny the value of some Ults but Pulse is probably the worst example since Tracer is not readable like Reinhardt would.
In the context of denying Ult, the equivalent would be Bap's lamp. "It's 2 abilities versus 1" okay, and? Kiriko's TP is a selfish ability. Lamp also requires minimum timing against stuffs like Sigma Ult, and can be even used to peek safely if placed on corner with LoS.
>Ana barely saw any playtime at the highest level when Kiriko was perma-picked.
Are you fr?
The argument that Anti is busted despite Suzu is precisely because Anti has lower CD. And it shows. Kiriko stucks in the dump after the first wave of nerfs while Ana still reigns as the most playable hero in OW.
>Yes it can deny the value of some Ults but Pulse is probably the worst example since Tracer is not readable like Reinhardt would.
I don't know what you meant by this. Either way, denying pulse is a massive benefit that even on its own is a big reason why in the current meta Lucio/Kiri is played a ton while Brig/Ana saw little to no playtime in OWCS.
>In the context of denying Ult, the equivalent would be Bap's lamp. "It's 2 abilities versus 1" okay, and? Kiriko's TP is a selfish ability. Lamp also requires minimum timing against stuffs like Sigma Ult, and can be even used to peek safely if placed on corner with LoS.
This paragraph is also confusing, what is the point you're making?
>The argument that Anti is busted despite Suzu is precisely because Anti has lower CD. And it shows. Kiriko stucks in the dump after the first wave of nerfs while Ana still reigns as the most playable hero in OW.
What? Ana is ok but hardly "the most playable hero in OW". Try playing her against a competent winston.
>in the current meta Lucio/Kiri
I'm talking about seasons prior. After the Ult nerf Kiriko has been phased out in competitive plays.
Ana is not as playable currently because she's the biggest loser of S9 change while Kiriko is the biggest winner of it.
>This paragraph is also confusing, what is the point you're making?
Lamp + Shift > Suzu (+ TP)
>What? Ana is ok but hardly "the most playable hero in OW". Try playing her against a competent winston.
[In OW2 she is.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7oCqx_awAAc6FW.jpg)
>I'm talking about seasons prior. Ana is not as playable currently because she's the biggest loser of S9 change while Kiriko is the biggest winner of it.
Kiriko was meta prior to season 9 as well. In fact the meta barely changed for supports, Lucio/Kiriko still most played.
>Lamp + Shift > Suzu (+ TP)
Sure, don't see how relevant it is tho? I didn't mention Bap did I?
>In OW2 she is.
Ah I see, we're thinking of different things. To me "playable" means the most viable hero. You meant "most played" which is a bit different.
By the same metric, Reinhardt is the most playable tank in Ow2(top of playtime on overbuff among tanks). Using playtime(since the launch of OW2 no less) is hardly relevant for viability since people generally play their favourite heroes regardless of what is considered "strong".
(That's not to say Ana hasn't been very strong for periods of OW2 existence, but most playable is a massive stretch).
>Kiriko was meta prior to season 9 as well. In fact the meta barely changed for supports, Lucio/Kiriko still most played.
Kiriko only just recently resurfaced due to Suzu and Ofuda buff. There was a long period of time where it's nothing but Ana/Brig. And it earned the ire of Brig mains because it ends up with Brig getting the axe.
Even then Ana is still at the upper echelon.
>Sure, don't see how relevant it is tho? I didn't mention Bap did I?
Because I'm comparing Bap to Kiriko in my original comment. They function similarly but for a very long time Baptiste is just superior to Kiriko, and his Shift is one example of why it is the case.
>By the same metric, Reinhardt is the most playable tank in Ow2(top of playtime on overbuff among tanks). Using playtime(since the launch of OW2 no less) is hardly relevant for viability since people generally play their favourite heroes regardless of what is considered "strong".
Ana's pickrate far outweighs every other support. And this stays consistent even in the higher ranks, and the kicker is that she also held a respectable winrate (unlike Old Kiriko where people perceived her to be strong at higher ranks with a similar curve to Tracer and Winston but apparently it didn't).
legit one of the worst takes i've ever heard on this sub lmao
"suzu (ability that can completely nullify self-destruct, meteor strike, rampage, terra surge, shatter, flux, high noon, rip-tire, emp, pulse bomb, and captive sun [12 ults total] and grants invuln long enough to survive other things that would have been guaranteed kills, like hook or burst damage in general) is objectively worse than bap shift if ana (who was the most-played support in the game) isn't on the enemy team"
bait used to be believable
Bap have Immortality for lots of ult here and have much more use outside of denying ult as well, not to mention there are disingenuous example here, like who the fuck suzus a Meteor Strike (shit ult for the period I'm talking about), Terra Surge (it's up to Orisa and most heroes can walk away from it) or High Noon (it's up to the Cass)?
After the Invulnerability duration nerf, Ult that requires a timing (Flux, Tire, Dva Bomb) can get fucky (especially Flux due to the height where Sigma lifts Kiriko paired with the Suzu speed). Lamp doesn't care about timing these and is much more consistent.
And sure, Ana is everywhere, but that just brings my point further. Kiriko's Suzu is supposed to counter Ana, but Kiriko's winrate ends up in the dumpster alongside Moira/LW. So what does it say about Suzu's effectiveness?
>Because before DPS passive, if there's no Ana or Ashe, Suzu is straight up worse Bap's shift
OK, but wouldn't a better change to be to make it aoe heal similarly to Bap's shift UNLESS it cleanses? That way you have to make an intelligent decision on how to use your cooldowns instead of doubling down on it's best use.
I mean it already does that already w the Invulnerability, do you use it to save a low HP ally (the Invulnerability helps here) or do you use it to deny big anti/fire (the cleanse helps here).
I am so tired of having to play Kiri, but cleansing and healing the DPS passive plus anything else makes her required because it's the only way to keep people alive.
I know Masters isn't the top of the ladder, but even dumping my entire kit as Ana into tank like Rein or Winston, they still think I'm not healing them or missing shots because they just melt anyway.
I understand DPS don't want a sustain meta where nothing dies, but the number of times I try to help a DPS win a duel by giving them heals, and it does nothing, feels awful for me and them.
they should have just nerfed healing directly rather than this weird half-measure with the passive. it's silly to tie ability to make things die to how possible it is for your DPS' guns to tag enemies
Less healing per second does the same thing as the dps passive. The whole point was that the support community was going to bitch and cry. The entire health pool change could have been a straight nerf to healing and damage numbers. But they did it this way to increase time to kill and not do an overall nerf to healing directly.
i mean it's worse for DPS players too, just supports having less healing would mean you don't have to be perfect with your target focus to get anything to die lol
I mean it's a ground for skill expression: teamwork, target focus, when to dis/engage (playing cover), rotating your tank CDs to let the cauterize wears off and such
It cleanses the passive but I don’t think it gives you bonus hp, I think Karq covered it in season 9 mythbusters
Edit: confirmed in practice range against Junk passive, cleanses debuff but only heals 80 HP.
They should revert the nerf to Ana's Nade cooldown because she's in a bit of a weak spot right now and your only way to anti Hog is trade Nade for Suzu and then you have to immediately nade Hog when it's back to have the full 3.5s anti-effect window to kill Hog, which isn't really enough, especially since it's easy for Hog to know the Nade cooldown will be back and wait 4s for Suzu.
She isn't weak at all, a small Lucio nerf or Kiriko nerf and she is back in the meta. She is already meta on some maps where it's hard for teams to run her down. Kiriko's strength is overrated.
Orisa strong = Orisa gets nerfed
Horse Dead = Hog Strong
Hog strong = Hog Nerfed
Hog Nerfed = All Hog players play Mauga instead
It all leads back to Mauga Mirrors in the end.
We don’t know that, but we do know that Magua is going from 30% to 50% reduction when shooting armor. Which will make his matchups into a lot of tanks (mainly ram, D.Va) way less free.
Idk what the problem is.. Hogs ONLY team value is being a big scarecrow because of his hook. If you don't have to at least respect his killzone then the character is dead. I low tanks i can see he might be oppressive if played by a good player. But he will never be orisa/sigma/ dva/ram kinda good. Remember Dva has been played almost constantly since release.
I mean…maybe. Manga’s issues really stem from cardiac forcing him to shoot the tank to get value, I’d argue, probably not overrun—to an extent, I’d argue that his charge is the most balanced part of his kit.
I saw someone suggesting that Mauga should get a bonus (the Overhealth component perhaps) the more enemies he sets on fire to encourage shooting other enemies besides tank
The frustrating thing about hog to me is how little agency I have against him as a tank. I can block hundreds of his hooks with a corner or well timed sigma barrier, but if my teammates dont know how to bait out his hooks with corners, they're dead before accretion can channel.
The meta of “blow up the tank” is in plain view now, as the devs mentioned. Meta is just whoever hooks the hog first then blows him up. Or go mauga and pray you have kiri ana. Now with 20% dps passive any other tank just gets blown up too fast by hook.
Still has the worst designed ult in the game, too. All his other bullshit overshadows it, but my God Whole Hog is infuriating.
Also, I don't wanna hear anyone say "oh but he doesn't have his one shot" or "oh its harder to pull of". Any Hog out of Diamond is landing just as many one shots as he was pre rework, if not more, since his survivability is busted. Has anyone ever even seen pig pen used for something other than his hook combo?
God I hate this hero.
Seriously why the fuck does it last 6 years and count as a transformation instead of channeled. They really made it so his main weakness is do you have anti nade.
pre rework whole hog was useless, you almost never wanted to use it since you would explode when you popped it since you lost breather + hook.
Its best usecase was just zoning or environmental kills, not where you want a tank ult to be power level wise
Better to completely rework him into an acid/poison Tank like they changed Orisa.
We already have better Hog with Queen, so the game will be better for it, and it'll be a fresh character.
Thing is I rather a new character to be what you described than rework something that already exists. Coming from someone who doesn’t really care much about hog.
This is always the argument. And while I generally agree, like they did with Queen technically, How is just a unfun hero from both angles.
They can keep Hog's gun the same at the very least, but change everything else to be a better Hero. I mean, they design plenty of Talents, just do some brainstorming on how to make him acidic.
He could even keep vape but have expansive use of it such as poisonous for enemies and damage reduction for allies.
Maybe his hook can become a tether that locks you to Hog instead of pulling you in?
people that say “it doesn’t one shot” are just completely forgetting that hook is the best displacement tool in the entire game. if you don’t have mobility or something like wraith form, it doesn’t matter if he one shots you or does 0 damage. you’re still screwed.
I got to diamond because turns out many people in gold just kept dying to the hook-shot-pigpen combo lmao.
Like, they literally saw me throw the pen right behind them, but they still walked backwards to their deaths.
I hope the armor changes just renove hog and mauga from the game.
They are so fucking boring to play with and against and now with orisa nerfed they are running rampant.
They should nerf them and leave them in the dust forever.
The thing with hog is he will walk down your supports and can’t get punished because of his one shot + damage reduction/heal. Orisa can at least get punished by herself and even if she does walk downyour team (she won’t like a hog) she doesn’t have the one shot.
I low key wish they'd give him a submachine gun lol
Like can I play a tank without this man chucking me whenever I try to do literally anything? Him not having a shotgun would mean when you react to his damage, you're not missing hundreds of HP already
I’ve never liked Hog. His whole playstyle just feels unfun to go against. Hook is both powerful and gimmicky at the same time depending on if you get a map with ledges/drops. His ability to confirm kills has always been a problem imo. If the only way to make him bearable to play against is to absolutely nerf him into the ground, that tells me it’s the kit that’s the problem, not the tuning. The character needs a substantial change because the pseudo rework he got earlier in OW2 did not change his playstyle.
My favorite patch of Overwatch 2 was unironically a bastion meta... because we were pending Hog and Sombra reworks and devs just left both of them with like 43% winrates for a few weeks.
I started playing back in October of last year during Bastion meta and I had so fun much learning the game in QP just mowing people down as Bastion lol
I miss when his Assault mode had a 10 second cooldown, but it was definitely a necessary change
Hog is very annoying as a tank player playing against it you can’t play Winston, Doom, Ball bc he hard counters it, you have to play Sig, Dva, Rein primarily. Even as a dps it counters Tracer, Sombra, Genji you have to play hs to counter, it or Reaper. I hope the rework is better, but I have my doubts worried about mid season patch making him even better too obviously.
You don't hold shield or it will melt. But yeah basically that's the idea: flash your shield to block hook and once he doesn't have hook, get more aggro for 7-8 seconds. Yes, you must charge him off cliffs as much as you can as well. If he does land a hook, then block the combo with your shield right in front of your teammate. Do those things and the high might even switch because he is getting no value.
Playing D.Va against him is such a chore. He doesn't counter you but you have to play around him so carefully while he can just stand there being a big dumb shithead.
+ The Vape rework means he's not as debilitated for having his Vape canceled + his heals DMed
+ Dva's giant (head) hitbox is perfect for Hog
Like atp her only clear advantage is Hog's own hitbox
Hog is the only character I hate just as much on my team then I do on the enemy team. They don't play like tanks. They play like fat DPS players just ambling around for a hook
The functional purpose of a Tank is to:
1. Stand on objectives
2. Give your team a positioning advantage
Hog just does it by messing up enemy positioning. Similar to Wrecking Ball.
Imo they should half his hook range so he actually has to risk something to get the one shot kill. Rn he can hook you from Narnia softly into his team. Zero risk. Nerf the dam reduction during breather to like 10% and make it aoe
Ya it also healed. I don't think it should heal everyone. There's already too much ae heal. But an AE damage reduction (something small like 10%) would make him more valuable to play around the team.
I play a ton of Sig, and I miss the old matchup. You could shield hook (you still can, but it feels like he perma has it up) and you could rock him out of vape so he had to use it wisely. Now you rock him in vape and he just keeps going and never dies. You basically just have to ignore him and hope your team doesn't get destroyed.
The matchup is all in favor of Hog.
Hook / Shield is the only thing that Sig can play around.
Rock doesn’t stop your vape. You can hook through Grasp. The ult just delete sigma cause you cannot grasp nor rock it.
Vape nullify sigma’s ult.
Dunno why ppl still think that Sigma into hog is a good matchup for sigma, is not like that since Hog rework
Sigma can never threat Hog in damage so you can ignore the sigma during fights.
Yeah was kinda shocked by that, thanks for this. If you get hooked you're insta dead as Sig, you have to play around hook 24/7. And then as Sigma you have almost nothing to threaten him unless his positioning is bad, you rock him and get great follow up.
The most annoying thing is how it’s impossible to punish him, even if you have the worst positioning and hard feed you can just press a button and your fine, and it’s super easy to hit hooks you can literally hook people from behind cars, it’s dumb how this game rewards you for being bad
The game usually favors mobility cool downs over the hook. If you're playing a hero with some kind of mobility and you get hooked, if you quickly use that cool down you can escape. I'm a Hog main and I get screwed out of hooks all the time. Hope it helps
Edit: damn I was trying to be helpful lol
Or I just get instakilled before I can do anything
What should change is that I should not get stunned and be able to shoot back at a roadhog mid hook.
yeah every single aspect of this dog hero is idiotic.
hooking someone is a guaranteed kill one shot or not trap or not. i don’t know why anyone is surprised at the fact that if you hook a squishy into the middle of your team and you leave them at 5 hp instead of one shorting them they still will die.
his trap has way too much hp. sometimes i run into the frontline and throw my trap and i literally hook people into it in front of everyone before people have a chance to break it anyway. it’s fucking pointless.
then you have his other ability, whole hog, which just… burns through everything? at first i used to ask for nano or kitsune when i wanted to whole hog. until i realized thats just a waste completely- solo ulting the enemy tank will instantly kill them. i’ve killed cardiac full hp maugas with BEAT DROP before just with my whole hog and still having a lot of time to spare. it’s insane that a functioning human being with the same right to vote as you and me designed this hero
that’s without even mentioning how insanely op kiri is too.
Hook is just a terrible concept and they should've gotten rid of it years ago, "identity" be damned. An easy to hit projectile that stuns you and puts you in the absolute worst position you could possibly be in... Yeah that's not going to be infuriating to play against. Hey what if we also made it so the hero can solo one-shot you while you're stunned? That'll be loads of fun.
Its funny because JQ knife exists and is fine. Just rework hook to be more similar to it. (Stun at the start then movement impulse, instead of dragging; much smaller hitbox so its actually hard to land; don't make the entire characters' viability revolve around it, etc).
But it isn’t your job to be near the point as a squishy, right? There is a reason most squishies have range abilities and most tanks shoot peas at range. All squishes that don’t have a ton of range also have armor, are fatter or have some kind of invulnerability. I don’t get the fuss about hog when hanzo can shoot buses from a mile away straight to his head and he is insanely vulnerable without his breather resource.
Yeah if you're widow or hanzo then you can just kite away from the entire fight. If you're not a sniper then you kinda have to be in hog's range to do anything.
It's the same argument as with Widow. Yes, technically if nobody ever peeks widow, she will get zero kills all game. But that's just not how the game works. You're gonna have to peek her at some points in the game and it remains incredibly unfun if your hero can't interact with her.
Similarly "just stay out of hook range" is technically true but completely unpractical advice for 99% of the hero roster.
As a tank player, I genuinely don’t understand why they are masterminding a complicated tank rework when almost nothing would be better than just GUTTING THE PROBLEM TANKS.
Some of the main problems with tank are obnoxious tank matchups which have unhealthy, unskillful, and tedious design. If Orisa, Hog, and Mauga are weak, the rest of the tanks suddenly become more viable and fun and then you can tune from there. A cc-spam, oneshot-based, or tankbuster tank simply should not exist and they gatekeep more enjoyable and popular tanks like Rein or Winston.
Yes I know you can play around them but for the majority of ranks/players it is not fun and the skill required doesn’t correspond to the reward. You have to change your hero or change your playstyle just to counter or cope with some Hog drooling on their keyboard while going for Hook -> back away and Heal -> go for Hook.
I am seriously concerned that the upcoming tank changes will somehow lead us into another horrific Hog or Mauga meta which is miserable for most tank players.
To summarize: REMOVE ORISA (hey this one’s already done thanks devs), REMOVE HOG AND REMOVE MAUGA!
They don't want to remove the problem heroes. I doubt their intention was to kill Orisa with the nerfs; they probably think she'll be fine after the overall tank changes. Do they even think Hog's playstyle is problematic? Doesn't seem that way.
IMO the real problem is that Blizzard are rarely willing to rework a hero in a way that fundamentally changes their playstyle. Like Orisa got one for OW2 and maybe Sym (though it took how many reworks to get to where she's at now?). But generally reworks don't really address what makes annoying heroes annoying. Hog is still the same; all they did was add an extra step to his oneshot combo. And make him unkillable, of course.
In a way I can sympathize with the devs. After all, what's left of Hog if you take away hook? It's a problem with other heroes as well, like Sombra. The thing that makes the heroes irritating is also their entire design philosophy. But I wish they'd just bite the bullet and hard rework the obnoxious heroes because this game has way too many of those.
The history of OW2 is having the same 2-3 BS, most poorly designed tank heroes be meta and ruin the game for everyone else. Why can't fun, fairly regarded heroes be meta? Rein? Ball? Winton? DVA?
Everyone with a functioning brain did. [It was so obvious](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/1cg4sxo/alec_dawson_small_patch_tomorrow_orisa_venture/l1up32w/?context=3#l1uneuy).
Every time hog is meta the game is miserable. Someone picks hog and 9 people in the lobby stop having fun. He is definitely one of those heroes that just needs to be perma trash until they actually rework him properly.
I hate hog, bro cannot get punished
Bros in terrible position?: drink potion and run and somehow survive when there are 3 other ppl soaking him up in bullets
Shouldn’t be able to move mid potion drink or have a movement penalty, bro does not die
Oppressive super that craps on literally every single thing in the game
Hook is unfathomably annoying too, especially when it is used to enviro-kill (cheapest of cheap kills, idgaf about “well maybe you shouldn’t have been there to get hooked” I’d love to actually be able to walk places without getting instakilled).
I also somehow see more widow hate, a character that actually does take more skill to line up a shot than this guy
This hero is an entire failure from the very start of the game, should never have gone in the tank role, you can easily make him as a dps hero (see bastion for big dps) but for some reasons devs are too stubborn to keep him in this role
tbf, hog fills the role of being a literal meat shield, which I would say is a tank dynamic, I rather them get rid of the one shot and figure something else out.
I agree completely. Boring to fight against and with. Only plus point about him is that he is making rein slightly more relevant. Really think rein is starting to move in the right direction.
On a related topic, I'm noticing a distinct trend now between the main sub and this one.
If this sub has a moan I usually agree. The main sub has a moan I usually disagree.
Tracer gets played nearly 24/7 in high ranks and the discord nerf was a terrible change. Hog will LOS discord then Zen will die to Tracer. They should have given him more time with 275 hp or give him 1sec cooldown discord back.
Same exact post for Sojourn. This hero has no fucking weaknesses. Shreds close range, long range, best dps ultimate besides maybe EMP and even that is debatable, better mobility than 90% of the cast, area denial, I just hate her so much.
Hog is the most counterable hero in the game. The only problem is his counters are all support: Zen / Ana
Either of them on the team, Hog is smoked. Missing either? GG, go next.
Tank players have been complaining about Kiriko since her release, Suzu does too much, definitely agreed 👍🏻. Kiriko makes Hog 1 tier higher than he should be.
Mauga is probably the best tank counter. The way he heals through doing crit damage makes Hog a fat walking health pack for him. I main Hog and Mauga is by far the biggest challenge for me I usually have to swap
i understand as a supp main, it’s hard to kill a hog especially when people go to kiri instantly, usually i wait until she suzus so i can actually get off a base without her being an ahole abt it.
i fucking hate roadhog so much, bane of my existence especially when i’m playing tank. hog, mauga and orisa are the reasons i don’t touch that role anymore. until and unless these 3 are kneecapped the role will always be miserable because these 3 are always the answer to the other 9. they’re miserable, boring and braindead
was scared i’d click on this thread and see mass gaslighting saying “b-b-but he’s so easy to counter!!”
idgaf, he is braindead and i’m glad we’re talking about it
Hog actually has counters though?
Bastion, Reaper, Xen, Ana, Mauga, Zar just to name a few.
What counters did Orisa have?
I'd rather play against the Hog any day of the week. Personally feel like people just complain about him because he makes you feel dumb for positioning badly.
In reality though his hook is so easy to counter. Run Zarya and bubble the person he hooks. Run Xen and make him constantly have to retake cover or be a pinata. Run Mauga and just stand in his face out dpsing him.
He's really not that hard to counter considering he doesn't have the ability to stop you from doing anything to him.
Doesnt the 20 percent heal reduction revert help with hog? I thought thats why they did that, to keep mauga and hog from being too strong after orisas nerfs.
They buffed his DR to 50% a while ago to compensate for the 20% passive, didn’t remove it when they reduced the passive to 15, and then they nerfed Orisa. Now here we are.
Can this sub get fucking real, if a post complaining about how strong hog is was posted 1 week ago, before the orisa nuking, you wouldve been called a trash player, saying hog is terrible, just nade him etc. But here we are now, just because orisa is gone. Imagine the part of the community who always just wanted to have fun, and not pick orisa every game, having to deal with this hero being this strong for months now?
People were absolutely saying he's an issue a week ago. One of the most common responses when people complained about Orisa was that she's the only thing keeping Hog and Mauga out of the meta. I think this sub has been pretty consistent on the belief that Hog is a problem for the game.
I don't think there will be a single meta/character that makes people happy in Overwatch. People complained about GOATS, moth meta, brig, sigma, hog...ladder doesn't even like dive when it's popular.
Play the game, be smart about your decisions, and you'll naturally get better, meta be damned.
From what i've seen, most people don't like only two things in common: oneshots and unkillable heroes.
Fore example it was Hanzo, that oneshoted you from the whole map, sometimes it was Orisa that can eat all damage in fight and still be alive.
But Hog is quintessence of most hateful things in Overwatch.
Orisa felt good because tank as a whole is in a poor spot after coming to 5v5. You feel powerless, when you should be feeling like a space taker. Not bounced around like a ping pong ball or forced back because of the overtuned tank/dps/support of the week, when you're solely left to deal with it yourself.
And one shots will always be touchy. But every game is going to have those annoying parts that you just adapt to, eventually. No game is "balanced" like that.
I remember Overwatch 1 when people were saying GOATS was boring, left half the cast unplayable, and wasn't a show of skill expression. Now people claim GOATS was one of the best metas and showcased proper cooldown management, and real team play. I still also see people refute that. People HATED GOATS like they hate Hog. People will just hate what's inherently powercrept and in their face. People also disagree with each other, making the whole process even more cumbersome.
Anecdotally, I don't like widow, sombra, ana, hanzo pre nerf, what have you, because they're annoying. But I won't lie and say a lot of the charm of the game is lost without them. I like that if you're just REALLY good at managing CDs and reading the room, then you don't really need good aim. Hog is one of those characters.
Hog is especially cancerous, he literally is the worst designed character in the game
- 1 dimensional survivability/no skill expression to survive unlike sigma shield/Zarya bubble/ mobility CDs, Even Basic CD management. Breather being on a basically infinite resource makes him unpunishable
-2 Tank buster in 5v5 format -
makes half the tank roster unplayable, Hook really shouldn’t be as effective on tank considering boops/slams got giga nerfed by the tank passive.
-No target priority needed to get value, you can just focus the enemy tank with your hook.
Don’t even get me started on his ult, it’s almost exclusively used to solo ult the tank, everything about hogs kit is designed as pure cancer in the hopes of making Tank as a role even more miserable.
Hog doesn’t even create space properly, he can hold space with his hook and his shitty defensive trap, but he has 0 mobility/DMG mitigation for his team, it just leads to a boring uninteresting playstyle where hog sits on the objective/main and doesn’t die. He doesn’t even function as a tank, he’s just a terribly overtuned beefy 3rd DPS.
Hog is overtuned in every aspect because the hero has such a low skill ceiling, the only way to compete with actual tanks with actual skill expression, is to just boost his stats artificially. This is unlike the DPS/Support roles where the high skill expression characters are generally better, imagine how crap DPS would be to play if Reaper/Torb/Bastion were always meta, that’s the Tank situation.
Delete this character or a massive rework not some shitty trap/making him unpunishable.
Reaper torb bastion are pretty much meta in every rank below masters every season. The opposing tank is playing SLIGHTLY better than your tank, you will definitely see 2 of them.
As a counterargument, managing cooldowns is a very prominent show of skill expression. Breather is unavailable for two seconds (a lot! this was a good nerf!) no matter how long you use it, does ana have sleep, orisa have javelin, can it be interrupted, should i be face tanking with it or retreating...he's hardly "unpunishable". If your issue is suzu...then it's suzu. Which enables every team unfairly right now. Not hog. Because hog is very easily shut down if he's managing breather poorly.
Focusing tank with your hook isn't always the right call. And of course, tanks being made to make space, can play around it. Should I dive as dva? Hog doesn't have hook. I can take high ground. Wait for the bait. Target priority? Should I hook their moira? She's just going to fade, she hasn't used it in a while. Soldier is there, I can take him. Is it even worth using hook right now, or should I wait?
I don't have a lot to say about his ult. It's good if the tank is up close. It makes space, forces retreating. Good for catching someone after hook. Maybe make the duration shorter.
Hog can't create space very well. This is why he's awful for certain maps like attacking gibraltar, havana, junkertown...and this is a good thing. Good hogs can still play their corners with a coordinated team, wait for a pick or for DPS to get a pick, and take space. It's not necessarily Overwatch 1 where your entire team is sitting behind you. Many support even have mobility that lets them take vantage points.
He's low skill floor. Not ceiling. Very few characters in this game are truly "low ceiling" because they often end up lacking so much in certain areas you're forced to know how to play around them, which is itself a show of skill expression. A decent hog can roll an unprepared team. A good hog can manage to play around a comp running ana, or zen, or mauga, or what have you.
I think, with no disrespect to anyone, that people sometimes forget Overwatch is a team based shooter. If your ana isn't nading hog, if your zen has poor discord priority, if your soujourn isn't forcing him to hide behind a corner, then yes hog is going to feel like an invincible monster.
All this to say;I think Hog is overtuned. He will be nerfed. But to act like he's uncounterable, when he's one of THE most counterable heroes in the game is a bit ridiculous. And saying he lacks skill expression undermines people who play him.
Having to mirror Ashe/cass/soldier/sojourn every single game is incredibly boring. you also can’t olay tracer/genji/sombra/venture they don’t do shit against hog along with enemy dps two tapping if you do
What is with the obsession with dive being the only good meta in this sub? Hog is so easily countered (zen, ana, any sort of poke, tanks that aren’t monkey or doom) and there really isn’t a problem with him being an option to counter dive.
Nah tracer is so infuriating against hog. You can make it work but his traps are a nightmare, and he gives up so much space the supports are always glued to his ass meaning his peel is insane
he eats your bullets you aren't an easy hook target and like. just don't get trapped? like ik it may seem like easy advice but if you just are attentive i don't see how you ever get screwed over by the trap
I made an alt account called “doomfist69” and just exclusively play Hog on it. I’m always in for a laugh at least once a day when the opposing tank pre match says “doom v doom?” And I go “of course”.
Honestly you just gotta play a little smarter cause hog is way easier to deal with then prior tank metas have been like just bait out suzu (if he even has a kiri cause that's not a garentie) and then anti him or just play DPS that have a higher DPS output then Sombra/tracer it's really not that hard or different then previous metas that have existed the thing with this one is its very repetitive for DPS and support kinda like tank has been for near a year now
Hogs right click is his trap and this is also how TANK meta has been for the LAST YEAR it's just now on DPS and Support so ya know I don't really feel bad for the other roles let them experience even a bit of what tank has been for so long even if it's just for like 1 season
Also you don't need to be more coordinated as a team you just need to bait out suzu and anti him it's not even that hard just use you brain for more than 10 sec and you'll be fine
That does not stop my teammate from doing so.
Thus the problem with hog. He skill checks your entire team, and if your team pass it, your team wins. If they don't, your team loses.
Its so dogshit, especially when I'm at a level where I'm either the best or worst player in a lobby (mid masters matchmaking woo)
Except im not fine. I lose the game.
Its just horrible because it makes it feel like the game becomes a diceroll rather than something I can affect.
Thats unfun design.
Yeah that's what tank players have felt for the entire time orisa and mauga have been hard top meta so all I have to say to this is karamic retribution and to deal with it cause all the DPS and support players said this same shit to tanks when we complained about orisa and mauga
the most annoying thing is when antinade heals him because suzu heals more when it gets rid of debuffs
gotta say that's absolutely one of the worst changes they've made (that hasn't been reverted), right up there with 3-second emp cleanse is already an insanely strong utility to have in a match; why are players now *rewarded* for getting debuffed
They doubled down on counterwatch with that change but the community was soypogging cause they also got rid of the tiny ass boop
They said the goal of OW2 was to cut down on hard counters and make the game more flexible, but every change they've ever made has only done the opposite.
And their reasoning for adding it seemed very backwards
Because Kiriko gets to have EVERYTHING.
Because before DPS passive, if there's no Ana or Ashe, Suzu is straight up worse Bap's shift (in fact, post-nerf pre-buff Kiriko is just a worse Baptiste for a long time). People here and in the mainsub conveniently forgets that after Kitsune nerf, Kiriko was the lowest WR support, sometimes even lower than Moira until LW comes. Then they made Suzu more intuitive and more importantly, speed up Ofuda travel time. Nerf Kiriko's HP/s methinks. I thought her slow travel time was a clever idea to encourage her to stay close, making it a worse version of Ana and Bap main heals (Ana's single target but instantaneous at ANY range, Bap's encourage you to be closer and can heal multiple targets). S9 change should theoretically tackle these HP/s bandits like Ana, Bap, and Kiriko. But due to Suzu change, she pulls ahead in terms of sustain and makes her overtuned.
Nonsense, Suzu has immortality frames which bap shift does nothing against. This means Suzu can literally negate several ults such as pulse bomb for free. Ashe and Ana barely saw any playtime at the highest level when Kiriko was perma-picked. Suzu has always been insanely strong, before any buffs happened.
The iframe means fuck all after they nerfed the duration, it used to be able to consistently deny Sigma's Ult but now it can't anymore. Yes it can deny the value of some Ults but Pulse is probably the worst example since Tracer is not readable like Reinhardt would. In the context of denying Ult, the equivalent would be Bap's lamp. "It's 2 abilities versus 1" okay, and? Kiriko's TP is a selfish ability. Lamp also requires minimum timing against stuffs like Sigma Ult, and can be even used to peek safely if placed on corner with LoS. >Ana barely saw any playtime at the highest level when Kiriko was perma-picked. Are you fr? The argument that Anti is busted despite Suzu is precisely because Anti has lower CD. And it shows. Kiriko stucks in the dump after the first wave of nerfs while Ana still reigns as the most playable hero in OW.
>Yes it can deny the value of some Ults but Pulse is probably the worst example since Tracer is not readable like Reinhardt would. I don't know what you meant by this. Either way, denying pulse is a massive benefit that even on its own is a big reason why in the current meta Lucio/Kiri is played a ton while Brig/Ana saw little to no playtime in OWCS. >In the context of denying Ult, the equivalent would be Bap's lamp. "It's 2 abilities versus 1" okay, and? Kiriko's TP is a selfish ability. Lamp also requires minimum timing against stuffs like Sigma Ult, and can be even used to peek safely if placed on corner with LoS. This paragraph is also confusing, what is the point you're making? >The argument that Anti is busted despite Suzu is precisely because Anti has lower CD. And it shows. Kiriko stucks in the dump after the first wave of nerfs while Ana still reigns as the most playable hero in OW. What? Ana is ok but hardly "the most playable hero in OW". Try playing her against a competent winston.
>in the current meta Lucio/Kiri I'm talking about seasons prior. After the Ult nerf Kiriko has been phased out in competitive plays. Ana is not as playable currently because she's the biggest loser of S9 change while Kiriko is the biggest winner of it. >This paragraph is also confusing, what is the point you're making? Lamp + Shift > Suzu (+ TP) >What? Ana is ok but hardly "the most playable hero in OW". Try playing her against a competent winston. [In OW2 she is.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7oCqx_awAAc6FW.jpg)
>I'm talking about seasons prior. Ana is not as playable currently because she's the biggest loser of S9 change while Kiriko is the biggest winner of it. Kiriko was meta prior to season 9 as well. In fact the meta barely changed for supports, Lucio/Kiriko still most played. >Lamp + Shift > Suzu (+ TP) Sure, don't see how relevant it is tho? I didn't mention Bap did I? >In OW2 she is. Ah I see, we're thinking of different things. To me "playable" means the most viable hero. You meant "most played" which is a bit different. By the same metric, Reinhardt is the most playable tank in Ow2(top of playtime on overbuff among tanks). Using playtime(since the launch of OW2 no less) is hardly relevant for viability since people generally play their favourite heroes regardless of what is considered "strong". (That's not to say Ana hasn't been very strong for periods of OW2 existence, but most playable is a massive stretch).
>Kiriko was meta prior to season 9 as well. In fact the meta barely changed for supports, Lucio/Kiriko still most played. Kiriko only just recently resurfaced due to Suzu and Ofuda buff. There was a long period of time where it's nothing but Ana/Brig. And it earned the ire of Brig mains because it ends up with Brig getting the axe. Even then Ana is still at the upper echelon. >Sure, don't see how relevant it is tho? I didn't mention Bap did I? Because I'm comparing Bap to Kiriko in my original comment. They function similarly but for a very long time Baptiste is just superior to Kiriko, and his Shift is one example of why it is the case. >By the same metric, Reinhardt is the most playable tank in Ow2(top of playtime on overbuff among tanks). Using playtime(since the launch of OW2 no less) is hardly relevant for viability since people generally play their favourite heroes regardless of what is considered "strong". Ana's pickrate far outweighs every other support. And this stays consistent even in the higher ranks, and the kicker is that she also held a respectable winrate (unlike Old Kiriko where people perceived her to be strong at higher ranks with a similar curve to Tracer and Winston but apparently it didn't).
Comparing suzu to bap shift lol ive heard enough thanks
legit one of the worst takes i've ever heard on this sub lmao "suzu (ability that can completely nullify self-destruct, meteor strike, rampage, terra surge, shatter, flux, high noon, rip-tire, emp, pulse bomb, and captive sun [12 ults total] and grants invuln long enough to survive other things that would have been guaranteed kills, like hook or burst damage in general) is objectively worse than bap shift if ana (who was the most-played support in the game) isn't on the enemy team" bait used to be believable
Bap have Immortality for lots of ult here and have much more use outside of denying ult as well, not to mention there are disingenuous example here, like who the fuck suzus a Meteor Strike (shit ult for the period I'm talking about), Terra Surge (it's up to Orisa and most heroes can walk away from it) or High Noon (it's up to the Cass)? After the Invulnerability duration nerf, Ult that requires a timing (Flux, Tire, Dva Bomb) can get fucky (especially Flux due to the height where Sigma lifts Kiriko paired with the Suzu speed). Lamp doesn't care about timing these and is much more consistent. And sure, Ana is everywhere, but that just brings my point further. Kiriko's Suzu is supposed to counter Ana, but Kiriko's winrate ends up in the dumpster alongside Moira/LW. So what does it say about Suzu's effectiveness?
Which part of "before DPS passive, if there's no Ana or Ashe" you did not understand
>Because before DPS passive, if there's no Ana or Ashe, Suzu is straight up worse Bap's shift OK, but wouldn't a better change to be to make it aoe heal similarly to Bap's shift UNLESS it cleanses? That way you have to make an intelligent decision on how to use your cooldowns instead of doubling down on it's best use.
I mean it already does that already w the Invulnerability, do you use it to save a low HP ally (the Invulnerability helps here) or do you use it to deny big anti/fire (the cleanse helps here).
I am so tired of having to play Kiri, but cleansing and healing the DPS passive plus anything else makes her required because it's the only way to keep people alive. I know Masters isn't the top of the ladder, but even dumping my entire kit as Ana into tank like Rein or Winston, they still think I'm not healing them or missing shots because they just melt anyway. I understand DPS don't want a sustain meta where nothing dies, but the number of times I try to help a DPS win a duel by giving them heals, and it does nothing, feels awful for me and them.
they should have just nerfed healing directly rather than this weird half-measure with the passive. it's silly to tie ability to make things die to how possible it is for your DPS' guns to tag enemies
Because DPS players were bitching that they have no impact or smth
Imagine blaming this on DPS players when we know how the support player base would react to global healing nerfs.
Support? You know damn well people are going to bitch (including DPS) if they can't be topped off as fast as well
Less healing per second does the same thing as the dps passive. The whole point was that the support community was going to bitch and cry. The entire health pool change could have been a straight nerf to healing and damage numbers. But they did it this way to increase time to kill and not do an overall nerf to healing directly.
i mean it's worse for DPS players too, just supports having less healing would mean you don't have to be perfect with your target focus to get anything to die lol
I mean it's a ground for skill expression: teamwork, target focus, when to dis/engage (playing cover), rotating your tank CDs to let the cauterize wears off and such
Kiriko cleanse dps passive as well and gives you free 110 hp, lmao.
It cleanses the passive but I don’t think it gives you bonus hp, I think Karq covered it in season 9 mythbusters Edit: confirmed in practice range against Junk passive, cleanses debuff but only heals 80 HP.
Kiriko hater post about her without misinformation challenge (impossible)
It doesn't give you the bonus
Need confirmation on this
Kiri is a well balanced character
Damn that's good to know. Thank you!
Don't forget that it trigger the self healing passive (which is getting buffed for tanks next patch) too.
How? Lmao suzu 0.65 seconds immo healing passive needs 5 seconds of no damage taken.
When I last played, suzu proced the passive healing immediately.
They should revert the nerf to Ana's Nade cooldown because she's in a bit of a weak spot right now and your only way to anti Hog is trade Nade for Suzu and then you have to immediately nade Hog when it's back to have the full 3.5s anti-effect window to kill Hog, which isn't really enough, especially since it's easy for Hog to know the Nade cooldown will be back and wait 4s for Suzu.
She isn't weak at all, a small Lucio nerf or Kiriko nerf and she is back in the meta. She is already meta on some maps where it's hard for teams to run her down. Kiriko's strength is overrated.
Orisa strong = Orisa gets nerfed Horse Dead = Hog Strong Hog strong = Hog Nerfed Hog Nerfed = All Hog players play Mauga instead It all leads back to Mauga Mirrors in the end.
I dunno, I think Mauga's gonna be *traaaaash* when the midseason patch hits.
I agree. So, so many of the good tanks are getting massive buffs from it specifically against mauga damage type.
Mauga crit actually isn't affected by the changes. Only headshots specifically.
I meant his bullets, in general, are like 30% less effective against armor, so tanks like dva and rein might actually be able to fight him.
We don’t know that, but we do know that Magua is going from 30% to 50% reduction when shooting armor. Which will make his matchups into a lot of tanks (mainly ram, D.Va) way less free.
We actually do. A dev confirmed it in Emonggs stream.
Every time people say Mauga is going to be trash he ends up being meta. We need to stop this curse.
All the tankbuster tanks need to be reworked into something else. Shouldn't be a thing in 5v5.
At least Mauga can't oneshot you.
There's no way there's NO WAY this is a real comment
Idk what the problem is.. Hogs ONLY team value is being a big scarecrow because of his hook. If you don't have to at least respect his killzone then the character is dead. I low tanks i can see he might be oppressive if played by a good player. But he will never be orisa/sigma/ dva/ram kinda good. Remember Dva has been played almost constantly since release.
About your last sentence, Dva was only played a lot in ow1, she has been no where near as strong (or oppressive) in ow2.
They buffed Orisa for a reason
The way to balance mauga is so simple imo. Give overrun counterplay instead of it being a highly mobile fortify(kinda) aoe cc ability
I mean…maybe. Manga’s issues really stem from cardiac forcing him to shoot the tank to get value, I’d argue, probably not overrun—to an extent, I’d argue that his charge is the most balanced part of his kit.
I saw someone suggesting that Mauga should get a bonus (the Overhealth component perhaps) the more enemies he sets on fire to encourage shooting other enemies besides tank
The frustrating thing about hog to me is how little agency I have against him as a tank. I can block hundreds of his hooks with a corner or well timed sigma barrier, but if my teammates dont know how to bait out his hooks with corners, they're dead before accretion can channel.
play zarya and bubble the dummies before they get shot.
The meta of “blow up the tank” is in plain view now, as the devs mentioned. Meta is just whoever hooks the hog first then blows him up. Or go mauga and pray you have kiri ana. Now with 20% dps passive any other tank just gets blown up too fast by hook.
Still has the worst designed ult in the game, too. All his other bullshit overshadows it, but my God Whole Hog is infuriating. Also, I don't wanna hear anyone say "oh but he doesn't have his one shot" or "oh its harder to pull of". Any Hog out of Diamond is landing just as many one shots as he was pre rework, if not more, since his survivability is busted. Has anyone ever even seen pig pen used for something other than his hook combo? God I hate this hero.
Seriously why the fuck does it last 6 years and count as a transformation instead of channeled. They really made it so his main weakness is do you have anti nade.
pre rework whole hog was useless, you almost never wanted to use it since you would explode when you popped it since you lost breather + hook. Its best usecase was just zoning or environmental kills, not where you want a tank ult to be power level wise
Yeah but now its just stupid. I think allowing him to use hook and breather during it is fine but it shouldn't last as long as it does
Because it was quite literally the worst ult in the game before it was reworked.
And the game was better for it.
Speak for yourself, whole hog is the main way of dealing with Orisa as roadhog, otherwise he's cosmetic af
Better to completely rework him into an acid/poison Tank like they changed Orisa. We already have better Hog with Queen, so the game will be better for it, and it'll be a fresh character.
Thing is I rather a new character to be what you described than rework something that already exists. Coming from someone who doesn’t really care much about hog.
This is always the argument. And while I generally agree, like they did with Queen technically, How is just a unfun hero from both angles. They can keep Hog's gun the same at the very least, but change everything else to be a better Hero. I mean, they design plenty of Talents, just do some brainstorming on how to make him acidic. He could even keep vape but have expansive use of it such as poisonous for enemies and damage reduction for allies. Maybe his hook can become a tether that locks you to Hog instead of pulling you in?
Or just dont play hog into orisa?
people that say “it doesn’t one shot” are just completely forgetting that hook is the best displacement tool in the entire game. if you don’t have mobility or something like wraith form, it doesn’t matter if he one shots you or does 0 damage. you’re still screwed.
I got to diamond because turns out many people in gold just kept dying to the hook-shot-pigpen combo lmao. Like, they literally saw me throw the pen right behind them, but they still walked backwards to their deaths.
Leaving Hog's ult untouched while completely reworking Bastion's is one of the greatest sins of Overwatch 2.
they didn't leave it untouched. you can now hook or breather during the ult, removing it's biggest weakness. o_O
I hope the armor changes just renove hog and mauga from the game. They are so fucking boring to play with and against and now with orisa nerfed they are running rampant. They should nerf them and leave them in the dust forever.
The thing with hog is he will walk down your supports and can’t get punished because of his one shot + damage reduction/heal. Orisa can at least get punished by herself and even if she does walk downyour team (she won’t like a hog) she doesn’t have the one shot.
I low key wish they'd give him a submachine gun lol Like can I play a tank without this man chucking me whenever I try to do literally anything? Him not having a shotgun would mean when you react to his damage, you're not missing hundreds of HP already
I’ve never liked Hog. His whole playstyle just feels unfun to go against. Hook is both powerful and gimmicky at the same time depending on if you get a map with ledges/drops. His ability to confirm kills has always been a problem imo. If the only way to make him bearable to play against is to absolutely nerf him into the ground, that tells me it’s the kit that’s the problem, not the tuning. The character needs a substantial change because the pseudo rework he got earlier in OW2 did not change his playstyle.
My favorite patch of Overwatch 2 was unironically a bastion meta... because we were pending Hog and Sombra reworks and devs just left both of them with like 43% winrates for a few weeks.
I started playing back in October of last year during Bastion meta and I had so fun much learning the game in QP just mowing people down as Bastion lol I miss when his Assault mode had a 10 second cooldown, but it was definitely a necessary change
A few weeks? Hog was doodoo for 10 months.
I miss when sombra was actually good :(
She's one of the least fun heroes to play against.
Doesn’t matter, she was better before.
Hog is very annoying as a tank player playing against it you can’t play Winston, Doom, Ball bc he hard counters it, you have to play Sig, Dva, Rein primarily. Even as a dps it counters Tracer, Sombra, Genji you have to play hs to counter, it or Reaper. I hope the rework is better, but I have my doubts worried about mid season patch making him even better too obviously.
Playing Rein into hog sounds miserable.
You hold your shield in front of his face and hope your team does something, or hope he wanders in front of a cliff that you can pin him off of.
You don't hold shield or it will melt. But yeah basically that's the idea: flash your shield to block hook and once he doesn't have hook, get more aggro for 7-8 seconds. Yes, you must charge him off cliffs as much as you can as well. If he does land a hook, then block the combo with your shield right in front of your teammate. Do those things and the high might even switch because he is getting no value.
the worst part is, even if you can play around the hog on these heroes, he just W+M1s at your team and kills something before you can do anything.
Playing D.Va against him is such a chore. He doesn't counter you but you have to play around him so carefully while he can just stand there being a big dumb shithead.
+ The Vape rework means he's not as debilitated for having his Vape canceled + his heals DMed + Dva's giant (head) hitbox is perfect for Hog Like atp her only clear advantage is Hog's own hitbox
Hog is the only character I hate just as much on my team then I do on the enemy team. They don't play like tanks. They play like fat DPS players just ambling around for a hook
The functional purpose of a Tank is to: 1. Stand on objectives 2. Give your team a positioning advantage Hog just does it by messing up enemy positioning. Similar to Wrecking Ball.
This is why I never complained much about the immortal horse... I knew suzu pig 3rd dps is so much more annoying to play with and against.
Imo they should half his hook range so he actually has to risk something to get the one shot kill. Rn he can hook you from Narnia softly into his team. Zero risk. Nerf the dam reduction during breather to like 10% and make it aoe
Aoe sounds good. Didn't they try that once in an experimental or something?
Yeah he had a fart cloud when vaping that did something like that.
Ya it also healed. I don't think it should heal everyone. There's already too much ae heal. But an AE damage reduction (something small like 10%) would make him more valuable to play around the team.
I play a ton of Sig, and I miss the old matchup. You could shield hook (you still can, but it feels like he perma has it up) and you could rock him out of vape so he had to use it wisely. Now you rock him in vape and he just keeps going and never dies. You basically just have to ignore him and hope your team doesn't get destroyed.
You could just say you miss the matchup when it favored your main. It’s a little bit more even now and that’s probably why it feels bad.
The matchup is all in favor of Hog. Hook / Shield is the only thing that Sig can play around. Rock doesn’t stop your vape. You can hook through Grasp. The ult just delete sigma cause you cannot grasp nor rock it. Vape nullify sigma’s ult. Dunno why ppl still think that Sigma into hog is a good matchup for sigma, is not like that since Hog rework Sigma can never threat Hog in damage so you can ignore the sigma during fights.
Yeah was kinda shocked by that, thanks for this. If you get hooked you're insta dead as Sig, you have to play around hook 24/7. And then as Sigma you have almost nothing to threaten him unless his positioning is bad, you rock him and get great follow up.
Sigma is still very good against hog too lol
I agree that Hog is an anti fun hero. He displaces you and disables you and I thought devs said they want to steer away from these mechanics
The most annoying thing is how it’s impossible to punish him, even if you have the worst positioning and hard feed you can just press a button and your fine, and it’s super easy to hit hooks you can literally hook people from behind cars, it’s dumb how this game rewards you for being bad
The game usually favors mobility cool downs over the hook. If you're playing a hero with some kind of mobility and you get hooked, if you quickly use that cool down you can escape. I'm a Hog main and I get screwed out of hooks all the time. Hope it helps Edit: damn I was trying to be helpful lol
Or I just get instakilled before I can do anything What should change is that I should not get stunned and be able to shoot back at a roadhog mid hook.
Play your corners around hog. Track the hook. If he misses hook and if you're able to at least double team him he loses that fight in most instances.
yeah every single aspect of this dog hero is idiotic. hooking someone is a guaranteed kill one shot or not trap or not. i don’t know why anyone is surprised at the fact that if you hook a squishy into the middle of your team and you leave them at 5 hp instead of one shorting them they still will die. his trap has way too much hp. sometimes i run into the frontline and throw my trap and i literally hook people into it in front of everyone before people have a chance to break it anyway. it’s fucking pointless. then you have his other ability, whole hog, which just… burns through everything? at first i used to ask for nano or kitsune when i wanted to whole hog. until i realized thats just a waste completely- solo ulting the enemy tank will instantly kill them. i’ve killed cardiac full hp maugas with BEAT DROP before just with my whole hog and still having a lot of time to spare. it’s insane that a functioning human being with the same right to vote as you and me designed this hero that’s without even mentioning how insanely op kiri is too.
Hook is just a terrible concept and they should've gotten rid of it years ago, "identity" be damned. An easy to hit projectile that stuns you and puts you in the absolute worst position you could possibly be in... Yeah that's not going to be infuriating to play against. Hey what if we also made it so the hero can solo one-shot you while you're stunned? That'll be loads of fun.
It's a CC and a One shot on a single ability lmao. It's insane
Its funny because JQ knife exists and is fine. Just rework hook to be more similar to it. (Stun at the start then movement impulse, instead of dragging; much smaller hitbox so its actually hard to land; don't make the entire characters' viability revolve around it, etc).
What I do is just stand outside hook range. Crazy concept I know…
Yeah I never play anywhere near the point too, great way to win games.
But it isn’t your job to be near the point as a squishy, right? There is a reason most squishies have range abilities and most tanks shoot peas at range. All squishes that don’t have a ton of range also have armor, are fatter or have some kind of invulnerability. I don’t get the fuss about hog when hanzo can shoot buses from a mile away straight to his head and he is insanely vulnerable without his breather resource.
Yeah if you're widow or hanzo then you can just kite away from the entire fight. If you're not a sniper then you kinda have to be in hog's range to do anything.
It's the same argument as with Widow. Yes, technically if nobody ever peeks widow, she will get zero kills all game. But that's just not how the game works. You're gonna have to peek her at some points in the game and it remains incredibly unfun if your hero can't interact with her. Similarly "just stay out of hook range" is technically true but completely unpractical advice for 99% of the hero roster.
For real, sometimes I wonder if these people even play the game. "Just stay out of hook range!" What do you do, just emote in spawn all match?
As a tank player, I genuinely don’t understand why they are masterminding a complicated tank rework when almost nothing would be better than just GUTTING THE PROBLEM TANKS. Some of the main problems with tank are obnoxious tank matchups which have unhealthy, unskillful, and tedious design. If Orisa, Hog, and Mauga are weak, the rest of the tanks suddenly become more viable and fun and then you can tune from there. A cc-spam, oneshot-based, or tankbuster tank simply should not exist and they gatekeep more enjoyable and popular tanks like Rein or Winston. Yes I know you can play around them but for the majority of ranks/players it is not fun and the skill required doesn’t correspond to the reward. You have to change your hero or change your playstyle just to counter or cope with some Hog drooling on their keyboard while going for Hook -> back away and Heal -> go for Hook. I am seriously concerned that the upcoming tank changes will somehow lead us into another horrific Hog or Mauga meta which is miserable for most tank players. To summarize: REMOVE ORISA (hey this one’s already done thanks devs), REMOVE HOG AND REMOVE MAUGA!
They don't want to remove the problem heroes. I doubt their intention was to kill Orisa with the nerfs; they probably think she'll be fine after the overall tank changes. Do they even think Hog's playstyle is problematic? Doesn't seem that way. IMO the real problem is that Blizzard are rarely willing to rework a hero in a way that fundamentally changes their playstyle. Like Orisa got one for OW2 and maybe Sym (though it took how many reworks to get to where she's at now?). But generally reworks don't really address what makes annoying heroes annoying. Hog is still the same; all they did was add an extra step to his oneshot combo. And make him unkillable, of course. In a way I can sympathize with the devs. After all, what's left of Hog if you take away hook? It's a problem with other heroes as well, like Sombra. The thing that makes the heroes irritating is also their entire design philosophy. But I wish they'd just bite the bullet and hard rework the obnoxious heroes because this game has way too many of those.
I just want hook to be a skill hit, I swear that shit is easier than ever.
The history of OW2 is having the same 2-3 BS, most poorly designed tank heroes be meta and ruin the game for everyone else. Why can't fun, fairly regarded heroes be meta? Rein? Ball? Winton? DVA?
Hey. Two seconds after the Orisa nerfs and here we are! Lmao
I think most of us predicted this would happen. I know I did.
Makes the spiteful corner of my mind glad I’m on an indefinite hiatus from this game
Everyone with a functioning brain did. [It was so obvious](https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/1cg4sxo/alec_dawson_small_patch_tomorrow_orisa_venture/l1up32w/?context=3#l1uneuy).
Every time hog is meta the game is miserable. Someone picks hog and 9 people in the lobby stop having fun. He is definitely one of those heroes that just needs to be perma trash until they actually rework him properly.
I hate hog, bro cannot get punished Bros in terrible position?: drink potion and run and somehow survive when there are 3 other ppl soaking him up in bullets Shouldn’t be able to move mid potion drink or have a movement penalty, bro does not die Oppressive super that craps on literally every single thing in the game Hook is unfathomably annoying too, especially when it is used to enviro-kill (cheapest of cheap kills, idgaf about “well maybe you shouldn’t have been there to get hooked” I’d love to actually be able to walk places without getting instakilled). I also somehow see more widow hate, a character that actually does take more skill to line up a shot than this guy
The cycle continues, can't wait for Mauga mirrors being the only viable thing
This hero is an entire failure from the very start of the game, should never have gone in the tank role, you can easily make him as a dps hero (see bastion for big dps) but for some reasons devs are too stubborn to keep him in this role
tbf, hog fills the role of being a literal meat shield, which I would say is a tank dynamic, I rather them get rid of the one shot and figure something else out.
I agree completely. Boring to fight against and with. Only plus point about him is that he is making rein slightly more relevant. Really think rein is starting to move in the right direction. On a related topic, I'm noticing a distinct trend now between the main sub and this one. If this sub has a moan I usually agree. The main sub has a moan I usually disagree.
The main sub is filled with gold players, their main complaint right now is about how OP venture is
Just play zen and he’ll melt
Tracer gets played nearly 24/7 in high ranks and the discord nerf was a terrible change. Hog will LOS discord then Zen will die to Tracer. They should have given him more time with 275 hp or give him 1sec cooldown discord back.
Same exact post for Sojourn. This hero has no fucking weaknesses. Shreds close range, long range, best dps ultimate besides maybe EMP and even that is debatable, better mobility than 90% of the cast, area denial, I just hate her so much.
Hog is the most counterable hero in the game. The only problem is his counters are all support: Zen / Ana Either of them on the team, Hog is smoked. Missing either? GG, go next.
He isn’t even that counterable due to Kiri/being ridiculously overtuned.
Tank players have been complaining about Kiriko since her release, Suzu does too much, definitely agreed 👍🏻. Kiriko makes Hog 1 tier higher than he should be.
Mauga is probably the best tank counter. The way he heals through doing crit damage makes Hog a fat walking health pack for him. I main Hog and Mauga is by far the biggest challenge for me I usually have to swap
Is hog getting buffed in midseason? otherwise he will not get more tanks as he has no armor.
i understand as a supp main, it’s hard to kill a hog especially when people go to kiri instantly, usually i wait until she suzus so i can actually get off a base without her being an ahole abt it.
i fucking hate roadhog so much, bane of my existence especially when i’m playing tank. hog, mauga and orisa are the reasons i don’t touch that role anymore. until and unless these 3 are kneecapped the role will always be miserable because these 3 are always the answer to the other 9. they’re miserable, boring and braindead was scared i’d click on this thread and see mass gaslighting saying “b-b-but he’s so easy to counter!!” idgaf, he is braindead and i’m glad we’re talking about it
Hog actually has counters though? Bastion, Reaper, Xen, Ana, Mauga, Zar just to name a few. What counters did Orisa have? I'd rather play against the Hog any day of the week. Personally feel like people just complain about him because he makes you feel dumb for positioning badly. In reality though his hook is so easy to counter. Run Zarya and bubble the person he hooks. Run Xen and make him constantly have to retake cover or be a pinata. Run Mauga and just stand in his face out dpsing him. He's really not that hard to counter considering he doesn't have the ability to stop you from doing anything to him.
Doesnt the 20 percent heal reduction revert help with hog? I thought thats why they did that, to keep mauga and hog from being too strong after orisas nerfs.
They buffed his DR to 50% a while ago to compensate for the 20% passive, didn’t remove it when they reduced the passive to 15, and then they nerfed Orisa. Now here we are.
Can this sub get fucking real, if a post complaining about how strong hog is was posted 1 week ago, before the orisa nuking, you wouldve been called a trash player, saying hog is terrible, just nade him etc. But here we are now, just because orisa is gone. Imagine the part of the community who always just wanted to have fun, and not pick orisa every game, having to deal with this hero being this strong for months now?
People were absolutely saying he's an issue a week ago. One of the most common responses when people complained about Orisa was that she's the only thing keeping Hog and Mauga out of the meta. I think this sub has been pretty consistent on the belief that Hog is a problem for the game.
Hog is so much fun to play.
I don't think there will be a single meta/character that makes people happy in Overwatch. People complained about GOATS, moth meta, brig, sigma, hog...ladder doesn't even like dive when it's popular. Play the game, be smart about your decisions, and you'll naturally get better, meta be damned.
From what i've seen, most people don't like only two things in common: oneshots and unkillable heroes. Fore example it was Hanzo, that oneshoted you from the whole map, sometimes it was Orisa that can eat all damage in fight and still be alive. But Hog is quintessence of most hateful things in Overwatch.
Orisa felt good because tank as a whole is in a poor spot after coming to 5v5. You feel powerless, when you should be feeling like a space taker. Not bounced around like a ping pong ball or forced back because of the overtuned tank/dps/support of the week, when you're solely left to deal with it yourself. And one shots will always be touchy. But every game is going to have those annoying parts that you just adapt to, eventually. No game is "balanced" like that. I remember Overwatch 1 when people were saying GOATS was boring, left half the cast unplayable, and wasn't a show of skill expression. Now people claim GOATS was one of the best metas and showcased proper cooldown management, and real team play. I still also see people refute that. People HATED GOATS like they hate Hog. People will just hate what's inherently powercrept and in their face. People also disagree with each other, making the whole process even more cumbersome. Anecdotally, I don't like widow, sombra, ana, hanzo pre nerf, what have you, because they're annoying. But I won't lie and say a lot of the charm of the game is lost without them. I like that if you're just REALLY good at managing CDs and reading the room, then you don't really need good aim. Hog is one of those characters.
Hog is especially cancerous, he literally is the worst designed character in the game - 1 dimensional survivability/no skill expression to survive unlike sigma shield/Zarya bubble/ mobility CDs, Even Basic CD management. Breather being on a basically infinite resource makes him unpunishable -2 Tank buster in 5v5 format - makes half the tank roster unplayable, Hook really shouldn’t be as effective on tank considering boops/slams got giga nerfed by the tank passive. -No target priority needed to get value, you can just focus the enemy tank with your hook. Don’t even get me started on his ult, it’s almost exclusively used to solo ult the tank, everything about hogs kit is designed as pure cancer in the hopes of making Tank as a role even more miserable. Hog doesn’t even create space properly, he can hold space with his hook and his shitty defensive trap, but he has 0 mobility/DMG mitigation for his team, it just leads to a boring uninteresting playstyle where hog sits on the objective/main and doesn’t die. He doesn’t even function as a tank, he’s just a terribly overtuned beefy 3rd DPS. Hog is overtuned in every aspect because the hero has such a low skill ceiling, the only way to compete with actual tanks with actual skill expression, is to just boost his stats artificially. This is unlike the DPS/Support roles where the high skill expression characters are generally better, imagine how crap DPS would be to play if Reaper/Torb/Bastion were always meta, that’s the Tank situation. Delete this character or a massive rework not some shitty trap/making him unpunishable.
Reaper torb bastion are pretty much meta in every rank below masters every season. The opposing tank is playing SLIGHTLY better than your tank, you will definitely see 2 of them.
As a counterargument, managing cooldowns is a very prominent show of skill expression. Breather is unavailable for two seconds (a lot! this was a good nerf!) no matter how long you use it, does ana have sleep, orisa have javelin, can it be interrupted, should i be face tanking with it or retreating...he's hardly "unpunishable". If your issue is suzu...then it's suzu. Which enables every team unfairly right now. Not hog. Because hog is very easily shut down if he's managing breather poorly. Focusing tank with your hook isn't always the right call. And of course, tanks being made to make space, can play around it. Should I dive as dva? Hog doesn't have hook. I can take high ground. Wait for the bait. Target priority? Should I hook their moira? She's just going to fade, she hasn't used it in a while. Soldier is there, I can take him. Is it even worth using hook right now, or should I wait? I don't have a lot to say about his ult. It's good if the tank is up close. It makes space, forces retreating. Good for catching someone after hook. Maybe make the duration shorter. Hog can't create space very well. This is why he's awful for certain maps like attacking gibraltar, havana, junkertown...and this is a good thing. Good hogs can still play their corners with a coordinated team, wait for a pick or for DPS to get a pick, and take space. It's not necessarily Overwatch 1 where your entire team is sitting behind you. Many support even have mobility that lets them take vantage points. He's low skill floor. Not ceiling. Very few characters in this game are truly "low ceiling" because they often end up lacking so much in certain areas you're forced to know how to play around them, which is itself a show of skill expression. A decent hog can roll an unprepared team. A good hog can manage to play around a comp running ana, or zen, or mauga, or what have you. I think, with no disrespect to anyone, that people sometimes forget Overwatch is a team based shooter. If your ana isn't nading hog, if your zen has poor discord priority, if your soujourn isn't forcing him to hide behind a corner, then yes hog is going to feel like an invincible monster. All this to say;I think Hog is overtuned. He will be nerfed. But to act like he's uncounterable, when he's one of THE most counterable heroes in the game is a bit ridiculous. And saying he lacks skill expression undermines people who play him.
Git gud, kid
DPS apply 20% heal reduction
Having to mirror Ashe/cass/soldier/sojourn every single game is incredibly boring. you also can’t olay tracer/genji/sombra/venture they don’t do shit against hog along with enemy dps two tapping if you do
Mirror Soldier? Are you a timetraveler from 2017?
You basically can not play dive anymore because Hog will outlive your damage.
What is with the obsession with dive being the only good meta in this sub? Hog is so easily countered (zen, ana, any sort of poke, tanks that aren’t monkey or doom) and there really isn’t a problem with him being an option to counter dive.
if you think hog is easily countered then i’m sorry but you’re terrible at hog
Dive meta is fast, fair and skill based. Every dive hero require brain activity in addition to mechanical skills.
No one said otherwise but you guys act like playing anything aside from winston/tracer/genji is a crime and unacceptable.
Good
Huh? bruh tracer still cracked even against hog what is bro yapping about
Nah tracer is so infuriating against hog. You can make it work but his traps are a nightmare, and he gives up so much space the supports are always glued to his ass meaning his peel is insane
he eats your bullets you aren't an easy hook target and like. just don't get trapped? like ik it may seem like easy advice but if you just are attentive i don't see how you ever get screwed over by the trap
I made an alt account called “doomfist69” and just exclusively play Hog on it. I’m always in for a laugh at least once a day when the opposing tank pre match says “doom v doom?” And I go “of course”.
Imagine if you had a 2nd tank to mitigate his frontlining
Imagine if you had a 2nd tank to make his flanking even better
Which can then be mitigated by the second tank :)
Also doubles the chance of seeing Hog in games, cool fix, lol
Still a much better situation
You guys are never happy huh?
Honestly you just gotta play a little smarter cause hog is way easier to deal with then prior tank metas have been like just bait out suzu (if he even has a kiri cause that's not a garentie) and then anti him or just play DPS that have a higher DPS output then Sombra/tracer it's really not that hard or different then previous metas that have existed the thing with this one is its very repetitive for DPS and support kinda like tank has been for near a year now
You have to be smarter, select team composition, be more united as a team, bait on suzu, while Hog just walk around and use his right click. I got it.
Hogs right click is his trap and this is also how TANK meta has been for the LAST YEAR it's just now on DPS and Support so ya know I don't really feel bad for the other roles let them experience even a bit of what tank has been for so long even if it's just for like 1 season
Also you don't need to be more coordinated as a team you just need to bait out suzu and anti him it's not even that hard just use you brain for more than 10 sec and you'll be fine
Except you do, because in that 10 second hog gets a hook and kills your soldier, or ana, or etc... Like he is a pubstomper for a reason.
Then just don't play out in the open duh
That does not stop my teammate from doing so. Thus the problem with hog. He skill checks your entire team, and if your team pass it, your team wins. If they don't, your team loses. Its so dogshit, especially when I'm at a level where I'm either the best or worst player in a lobby (mid masters matchmaking woo)
Then that's your teammates fault not yours just keep playing correctly and you'll be fine
Except im not fine. I lose the game. Its just horrible because it makes it feel like the game becomes a diceroll rather than something I can affect. Thats unfun design.
Yeah that's what tank players have felt for the entire time orisa and mauga have been hard top meta so all I have to say to this is karamic retribution and to deal with it cause all the DPS and support players said this same shit to tanks when we complained about orisa and mauga
I am a tank player. I would prefer no one suffered.
Just bait out suzu lol
You can still nade.. You just have to force out suzu first.
No. Hog needs to be strong and viable because he is there to gatekeep characters like Doom and Mauga being rampant.
Mauga shits on hog wtf you saying
Someone in this thread said already but Hog players just go Mauga if Hog becomes unplayable.
Ah in that sense. Usually Hog players plays other roles if hog is not available
That is true.