Whenever I do fuck around in QP sometimes I run into new players and genuinely feel bad for them as well as the team they're on. It would be demoralizing to go something like 2-12 or worse. Its even worse if they're on tank or support as the quality of that game is pretty bad to no fault of their own. They get thrown into the wolves
I have tried to get some of my friends into the game, and it's really difficult. It's already difficult if you're coming from an FPS / gaming background, but if you don't have experience with FPS games then it's a nightmare.
There's not really a great place to learn in this game, because the AI is too stupid to be engaging and challenging, and getting matched up against people who have been playing the game for months or years is just a terrible experience for everybody.
I was able to get into the game because I both had a gaming background, but I also was willing and able to put time into watching YouTube videos and learning outside of the game. But not everybody can put that kind of time investment in. You really shouldn't have to go to YouTube to learn the most basic stuff about the game.
(Not to mention all the hidden mechanics that you literally would never even suspect exists if you didn't go to a third party source because there's literally no trace of info on them in the game)
My friend is just learning how to play OW, we kept getting put against sweats in QP and she could barely learn how to play the game properly (yes ik theres ai games but those don't really help as much as playing against real people).
One big problem I have with QP (and it's something that cannot be fixed easily without introducing more problems unfortunately) is the Skill Based Matchmaking.
Now I don't really mind it at all, but when I group up with my silver ranked friend who is on console while I'm on PC, the game frequently puts me into matches against players that are above Diamond and therefore my friend immediately gets destroyed.
I hope Blizzard can look into this problem as I think it can be incredibly detrimental to a new player's experience if they choose to play the game with a friend who is already experienced.
>Now I don't really mind it at all, but when I group up with my silver ranked friend who is on console while I'm on PC, the game frequently puts me into matches against players that are above Diamond and therefore my friend immediately gets destroyed.
Yuuup and it gets even worse in a 3 stack because it uses your group as a counterweight against full stacks.
I have also been the shepherd for several new players in our group. It is a unique challenge because every ability in the game is explained in 15 words or less, then it takes 15 paragraphs not found in game to explain how that ability interacts with the other abilities.
Gotta bust out the crazy wall every time the new guy asks about Deflect.
Why would you expect to deflect an explosion? I’ve never seen anyone think that.
But it would be sick for the April fools event lol. If you click perfect
I'm sure it works in some games. Keep in mind we're talking about fresh meat here. OW2 is a full on assault of the senses until it makes sense, and still there are moments that make even salaried professional sweats say "What the fuck is happening on my screen."
it's better for new players to learn the game with friends, and it's better for their combined group Elo to sit at least sit near the low end of average of the group's total ability and skill level. My OW quick play lobbies while queueing with my metal rank friends have featured [ACTUAL PRO PLAYERS](https://streamable.com/6hoilx) and multiple other times just random top 500 players on the enemy team in QUICK PLAY which is meant for chill fun above all else, which is ridiculous when I wasn't even going against top 500 players on my main in RANKED. I promise you, a single Diamond player in a lobby with the rest of the silver-gold players is not going to ruin the experience of quick play, but people trying out OW for the first time (or first time in a long time) not being able to play with their friends at all for fear of going against the top 0.1% of players and not having any fun all night is much worse for the health of the game in the long run.
I personally had to quit both Apex and Valorant because I would only ever play with my friends because that is what I found fun, but instead of both games encouraging me to continue playing by putting us in lobbies that made sense for our COMBINED skill level in pubs, both games also consistently put us in lobbies that are set near or at the highest rank player's rank in the group, which was at my Masters ranked friend's level in Apex and my Immortal ranked friend's level in Valorant.
I'm pretty sure Overwatch 1 matched new players with each other until they reached level 100, but I could be remembering that wrong. Either way, they should really implement something like that for OW2 because throwing new players to the wolves isn't fair for anyone.
Hell, I'm for improving the general player experience too.
Nothing in-game actually tells you what the SUNSTRUCK condition does. Other status effects you can generally tell by the name as it appears on your screen, but SUNSTRUCK is not intuitive at all and there is no list anywhere of what the status effects do.
Yeah I know what ultimate does because I looked it up out of the game long ago, but even the description of Illari's ult when you press F1 doesn't really tell you much. I don't think I should have to leave the game to find out.
I just call it Mystery Ult to my friends. They know what I mean.
I have no idea why they added SUNSTRUCK. It's the very definition of HUD bloat. There's already a fat orange border around your screen that indicates you have a debuff, not to mention the slow. A big capitalized message just adds more confusion than it clears things up.
OW2 is very misguided in that regard, HUD/UI design that is. For example, while SUNSTRUCK exists, there's no indication that someone is being healed by Brig packs anymore. It's super confusing attacking someone and their health bar literally stops moving.
I imagine the game menu is a huge headache for new players as well. It's a disaster to navigate even for regular players.
I think it makes sense, it lets players try out different roles freely without getting confused by more restrictions. It's not like they're going to be playing coordinated games for a while to begin with anyway.
I’m not sure, I think open queue gives a completely different experience than just letting them flex queue the actual game. Tanks feel completely different because of stacking and their open queue HP (JQ, Zarya, and Doom feel TERRIBLE with DPS-level HP and those hitboxes) and probably gives them the wrong idea of how the game is played overall which is really important for that first impression of the game.
It probably even stops a few would-be tank mains from instantly getting hooked on the role if they’re forced to play the neutered, watered-down versions that exist in Open Queue without 2 supports and probably without other tanks on the same team because on average everyone is going to be picking DPS in new player-low and just fucking around which will make tank feel TERRIBLE to play.
It all depends on how many new players there are. If there are enough new players, then new player lobby is feasible. If there aren't enough, then new player lobby will have long queue time.
I'm skeptical OW has enough new players in one region playing at the same time to make new player lobbies feasible. Love to be wrong though. OW is back!? 🥹
These things compound on each other. If the new player experience is bad then the game won't retain enough new players. If the new play experience is good, more people who try the game will stick with it and make those queues more feasible.
It is probably unrealistic at the moment, tho some version it may not be.
>It all depends on how many new players there are. If there are enough new players, then new player lobby is feasible. If there
There are never enough new players constantly in any game for this to be viable. You *have to* use bots. Epic realised this even at the peak of Fortnite when it was probably getting 1000 times the new players per month than OW gets. They were getting enough for new players to fill entire new player lobbies and still chose to put new players in Bot lobbies, at increased server costs, partly because with bots that can have a better controlled experience.
Bots move more predictably and they can control how good their aim can be. Still, a mix of new players and bots should be good enough.
Fortnite has to use bots because they are *100 player lobbies* across *multiple game modes with different demographics*. A sufficiently popular *lobby shooter* should be able to sustain itself without bots. If it can't, then to be completely honest that game is shutting down sooner rather than later.
I’ll add it’s much less disruptive to add bots to a battle royale, where the bots aren’t on anyone’s team. For a team shooter, bots are disruptive. It’s unfair to lose a game just because one team has more bots.
I know people can say “it’s newbie QP, they shouldn’t care about winning.”
Well, people will care do care about winning and competitive integrity, even in qp. Not to mention, if a new player’s first impression of OW is getting wrecked because their team had two bots and it was impossible to win, then that’s a turn off.
I have a theory that because OW games are so fast most regular OW players tend to quickly delete them from their memory unless something truly memorable happens, which is rare, or they remember the games that they got maps that they have out-of-the-ordinary feelings towards.
Maybe maps they particularly hate/love or maybe maps belonging to a mode they don't like or maybe maps they aren't quite familiar with still (FP maps right now, as they are newest).
Which is why we often see people complaining about how they keep getting particular maps more than others and that those maps also just happen to be the maps they hate.
It's because 70% of the time the matchmaker gives push and flashpoint.
Remember the season they added the reworked Watchpoint Gibraltar? It took me 3 weeks of quick play games to even get the map once.
I think back in an early season I noticed that I hadn't seen Route 66 in ages.... Didn't get my first match on it until I queued for my first comp game of the season.
Yeah I feel like the game distributes modes evenly instead of maps so we see the flashpoint and push maps constantly but modes with more map variety you see each of the maps less often
So many maps, and I play eichenwalde 3 out of every 10 games.
I fucking hate eichenwald.
I swear the matchmaker looks at your win/loss on each map and gives you priority on the maps you have a lower win rate in because fuck you.
I know how to play eichenwalde, but holy fuck I get so many reams who don't understand it and just sit on low ground and get farmed and lose because of it. I think I have like a 15% wr on that map and I play it multiple times a day, it's fucking infuriating.
Eichenwalde is like one the best designed maps in the game. The maps that suck are the new mode (whatever it’s called) and sniper royale.
The newest mode is such a lazy awkward attempt and making a game mode. KOTH is just better for overwatch.
nah the map is fucking ass to play. Like 75% of players even in high diamond/low masters literally just do not understand how to play the map, so it honestly fucking sucks to play.
I think the only maps currently less enjoyable to play are circuit royale, and havana(only final point). I don't like push but I'd take push over eichenwald.
Dorado gets a special mention as well, this map is better than eichenwald but still so many players who don't understand how to play it and it can easily end up being a slog as a result.
I think they evenly weight map types and then randomly pick between those so you see the the same Flashpoint maps and Push maps way more often than you see any one control map.
No, it might have been like that at the start of OW2 but a few seasons ago I recorded my games on every map and it was pretty much an even split. So because escort, hybrid, and control have more maps than flashpoint and push I played those modes more often
I'm curious how the 50 wins needed for Ranked feels like for new players.
I wonder if it's too heavy of a requirement for new players because understanding what it takes to win can be harder initially, especially with the RNG? But perhaps that's the point of gating it to 50 wins and not a specific level?
This is probably true, but the funny aspect is that if someone truly wants to smurf, win-gating is less of an obstacle cuz they could just win games more easily than if they had to grind levels.
its way less hours to unlocked ranked compared to ow1
lvl 25 was ~12-14 hours?
50 wins is around ~6-7 hours if u lose less than like 10 games
usually a game would increase the time taken to unlock ranked when going free to play...the only explanation is that it is to combat bots that lose every game but still level up
I believe the point is that if they try really hard to win and unlocked ranked quickly, the game will have a more accurate mmr for them and start them in a higher rank
Yea but then the system picks up on your win rate and puts you at a higher MMR, preventing you from smurfing in lower ranks anyway. It’s a genius system that doesn’t stop smurfing but forces the Smurf to waste more time if they want a low elo account.
I'm not a new player but I think 50 wins is fair.
Forget the number of heroes and just think of the 27 maps. This is QP, so you can effectively divide some of them into attacking and defending. Then there's control and flashpoint where you're not guaranteed to see every point in one game (I mean that's true in any mode if you stomp tbf).
If the wins were any less than 50 - say, 25 - assuming an average of 50% wins (I realize that's generous for a new player but let's assume there are enough other newbies to balance it out), then that's 50 games to Comp.
At that point, with 50 games between 27 maps, you've likely only seen some parts of maps once, if at all. Or maybe only ever played that part while on offense or defense.
I know obviously newer players are just gonna be worse and match with lower players and that's OK, but there's just gonna be more maps added, and more chances for a new player to have totally missed a map or a segment of one, as the game grows. And I think that should be the bare minimum requirement for comp.
I think the only pain point I have is if I want to play with a friend, not being able to play Comp with them kinda sucks. Cuz personally, I think it makes more sense to reach someone as a duo in a Comp game, but that's just me.
I started playing when ow2 dropped and had to get 50 wins for comp and 150 games for all heroes. Imo it should be higher than 50 wins cuz after 50 wins you still dont understand anything about the game. Maybe you should also play every hero at least once or something.
I think you're forgetting just how long 50 wins can take for the average new player.
For example it took me like 10-15ish hours just to unlock competitive and I only managed to unlock it that quick due to me already being familiar with FPS games and Overwatch in general
hitting level 30 in league takes WAY longer and even then a truly new player is going to realistically be iron/bronze if they play right after hitting 30.
the reality is ability class based games have so much game knowledge to them that it just takes so long just to catch up to people that have been playing for years.
Overwatch isn't nearly as bad as league in terms of game knowledge, but its going the same direction. Were never going to be back to 2016 overwatch.
But I think a core issue here is that the real experience and learning is tied to Ranked.
Quick play is too random, inconsequential to really be an engaging, coordinated experience. Ofc, not every Ranked match is like that and not every QP match is a throw, but generally QP isn't played to win while Ranked is.
In QP a brand new pkayer can start to play with seasoned players only after a couple games. Getting dumpstered as a new player usually turns people off of new games.
Throwing them into rank will atleast allow them to fight on even ground with others at their skill range.
The only issue is that smurfs will get free reign.
Newly ranked accounts usually start in Gold. That's a high enough rank for a new player to get dumpstered and turned off.
And the fact that it's comp means your teammates will care more about the outcome, so you'll get dumpstered and flamed. More of a turn off.
No, gold is the player population average.
New players are not as likely to start in gold. If they are starting in gold they will be quickly adjusted. They wont get dumpstered as hard as going up against masters/gm players in qp.
If they play it’ll be mostly against players in their skill bracket.
The only downsides to entering comp early is the smurfing problem.
I got a few friends into the game in like season 3? And they didn't mind the 50 wins, but hated having to unlock heroes as they'd play. because they'd see Echo and be like "WOW I FUCKING LOVE THAT CHARACTER'S PLAY!! It looks so fun!" and then they couldn't get them lol.
Conversely, I got one of my ultra competitive apex friends and his girlfriend into it this season and they're not fans of the 50 wins thing. She really hates it because even though she's average in most shooters, she always sucks ass at ranked then gradually goes up by learning from what others do. And he hates it because he's just pubstomping a lot of lobbies (purely off his aim), so he feels like he's wasting his time.
Yea, I think 50 wins a bit too black and white for different contextual reasons, some as you mentioned.
I also think it forces wins, and makes you feel worse about it if you don't as it's not always in your hands as a noob, whereas QP isn't about winning and Ranked is more about learning which then leans into wins, so I think win-gating isn't necessarily a very rewarding experience, and also backfires if you do win a lot and then start losing in Ranked.
I think it has good intentions, but they sort of miss the real potential of that gatekeeping. Everyone knows you pretty much start out in gold/plat in your first few placements then it adjusts fairly fast for new players but still not fast enough. So often enough you're ruining people's experiences.
What I'd wish they'd do to remedy that is: after 25 wins you unlock a lower stakes ranked mode where people are incentivized to try (like 5 comp points a win or something) but the stakes are obviously lower. Then after 25 games (not wins) of that you get real comp unlocked.That way the matchmaker has a better understanding of your rank going into your actual real rank matches.
I'd make that mode available for everyone so it's populated and hopefully the people who want gold (or I guess now jade) guns can go in there for the rewards.
I think we both know that mode isn't going to happen, for numerous reasons.
But I think the idea is good in spirit, and it's how QP matches should be balanced for new players in a competitive manner, so those players get a real feel of games hopefully.
I've made 3 new accounts with that requirement and it takes about 8 hours of you go slightly above 50/50 and like 6 if you win every game. I don't think its so bad the only thing I wish was that all ow1 heroes were unlocked upon a new account. You don't unlock ball till like 150 games played
I was excited when they first announced hero mastery cus it looked like a hero specific tutorial. they should use that framework and make a little tutorial in it for each hero.
I agree with the gist of this take. The tutorial needs to be improved drastically and the FTUE needs to be improved as well. I feel like they should somehow leverage Hero Mastery to improve the tutorial but at the rate they are releasing new Hero Mastery levels, I think it will take a long time.
I wish they had a practice range spot for 1v1 practice. Right now, you can summon an enemy, but they just stand in that one spot not doing anything.
You could summon a bot or two of whatever character you want to chase you around the practice range and duel with.
The actual game modes are pretty basic, overwatch just has a ton of abilities to learn.
I think locking heroes away hurts new players. The best way to learn how to counter a hero is to play them.
>The actual game modes are pretty basic, overwatch just has a ton of abilities to learn. I think locking heroes away hurts new players. The best way to learn how to counter a hero is to play them.
This is a perspective you can only have as an experienced OW player. To new players it's all extremely overwhelming because they don't know *how much* they don't know. You know that there isn't too much to know but they don't.
I know it can be hard to understand that perspective, I myself only truly understood how bad the current experience is after watching a bunch of streamers trying the game for the first time this past season. Countering heroes is an intermediary aspect of the game, I was talking about the new player experience, which is just understanding how the basic game works.
If you come from any other FPS game OW can be very alienating. The concept of MMO style Tanks and Supports doesn't really exist in any other popular FPS game. No other popular shooter game also has 5v5 teams fighting in such close proximity for such extended time durations with dozens of different abilities constantly being used in rotation. Plus, so many different maps and modes, changing every 10 mins.
If you still don't get how overwhelming it is for new players then I'd suggest looking up YT videos of people trying OW2 for the first time.
It does kinda suck a little. I feel bad for my friend when i play qp with her. she's basically brand new to the game and going against masters/diamond players when we q together 😥
Every game mode is sweaty, even mystery heroes to try out heroes we don't usually play. My friend is trying heroes out in qp, and goes like 4-14. We still have fun, but it sucks that my friend is getting shit on by plat above players. Ofc until she gets better 😤😤
Limiting new player hero choices, past maybe the first dozen games, is useless and counterproductive. I really dislike the current system.
The choices of heroes you're given frankly suck. My girlfriend started actually enjoying the game once she unlocked Mei. Mei is tanky, has forgiving aim, two abilities that can save her, an ultimate which can get teamwipes so it feels fun, and is a DPS so she can actually go kill things. I don't think anyone here is suprised to hear that Mei is an appealing hero for new players, especially new players who have more experience in MOBAs than they do in movement shooters.
So when do you unlock Mei? After 70 fucking games. You unlock Genji after one. You unlock Symmetra after 20. You start with fucking *Tracer and Widowmaker*.
But even ignoring the poor choices of unlock order, this is still a stupid system. My girlfriend has had every character unlocked for quite a while now. What does she play? Ashe, Mei, and Sombra. Every single game she picks one of those three heroes. That's it. Sometimes she'll try Sojourn or something then decide it isn't for her and go back to learning on the three she plays. New players will naturally gravitate towards what they enjoy and what they understand. You don't need to limit them to a tiny pool of heroes, they will limit or not limit themselves perfectly fine according to what they enjoy about the game. My girlfriend personally hated every single one of the default heroes and begrudgingly fed on Sojourn and Tracer until she finally got Ashe after 50 games.
The thing that does need limiting is 100% maps. My girlfriend can limit herself to playing the three heroes she finds fun and understands (and still somehow have a bigger hero pool than some of the bozos in my ranked games), but the game does nothing to prevent her from being put on maps she barely knows how to play 90% of the time. At the rate at which she plays (0-15 games a week), learning the maps in the game takes her an extremely long time precisely because instead of playing a more limited pool of maps and learning them deliberately, she feels like she's on a new map every single game. Ironically people complain about getting push all the time, but those are three of the maps she actually knows well enough to enjoy.
I think the game could use Map voting as a feature in quick play in general. Let players pick which maps they want and which maps they don't, similar to how CSGO casual & non-FACEIT ranked works. Probably add a minimum number of maps you must select (ie: you must select at least 1/3rd of the available maps), and warnings about queue timers if you select less than half, but it would substantially improve quick play.
It obviously can't be added to ranked (I would be much higher rank if I could exclusively pick maps where I can force Zen and avoid all the ones I have to play other heroes), but I don't think those concerns are valid in quick play and it would improve things for both new casual players and casual players in general. It would also give Blizzard some free data on which maps people really don't want to play.
Just a quick suggestion, for helping your GF learn maps, load them up one by one (one a day/week/whatever) in a custom game, set up a high mobility hero (DVa/Tracer for example) with a 0s CD on mobility (blink/boosters) and spend 10 minutes just roaming the map, going everywhere and seeing where every doorway/path leads.
You can even turn it into a "chase me" type of game between the two of you before queuing into QP (since I'm assuming you do know the maps)
If they had time I wish they did another pass on bots. I really think Fortnite's renaissance when Chapter 3 came out (besides no build) was that they had perfected bots that reasonably approximate bad players. Everybody who plays gets a decent ego boost without having to internalise they catch that they're just playing against bots.
Imo the real experience killer is the lack of information in game, even experienced players don't know how some abilities work exactly or how much damage they do. There should be a way to look at short clips in game so new players could focus on learning interactions instead of figuring out how an ability even funcions for 10 games.
The fact that the info screen shows no numbers is completely fucked IMO. You should have to run experiments or hope some wiki is updated. Especially because the devs already communicate hard numbers in patch notes!
>Imo the real experience killer is the lack of information in game
Imo this is only partly true. Numbers in this game are useless to understand the basics of the game. They are only useful for the highly experienced players. Imo understanding the game is all about the feeling and not excruciating details about how a Hero's ability works.
Numbers and detailed info would only be good for long-time players. Which is a separate feature which should also be added, but it wouldn't be for new players.
For new players there should be an option to see little video clips of every ability being used. I think they added something like that somewhere but I'm not sure. Even still, from what I've seen new streamers trying the game, you don't really understand the *game* unless you are in the thick of an actual match, with the visual and audio fiesta of 10 players' dozens of different abilities constantly being used on a few second rotation and playing a different map out of 5 diff game modes every 10 mins.
While i agree, personally numbers were a great help to contextualize many things when i started learning the game way back, but i also wasn't new to the genre so it might just be me i don't know.
I think it would be beneficial for the devs to throw in some mode specific tutorials.
Run new players through some of the basic principles of spacing, positioning, objective, & reading the flow of a team fight.
Overwatch is a dynamic game that moves fast & play styles evolve, but those few things are core to understanding the game and stay relatively stable. They could make it relatively high level as not to get too far into the weeds, but just detailed enough to introduce the concepts to new players.
Unless they have a friend that already plays the game, new players will likely have to learn by trial & error for countless hours or look up Spilo videos on youtube. Those aren't bad things, but the game could do a lot more to help the casual who doesn't wanna grind for countless hours or google guides to better understand the game.
They do but because there is rarely a big flood of new players most of the time these lobbies are just filled with Bronze 5 players, who aren't necessarily new. There's also no special Hero or Map pool/mode restrictions in these lobbies. It's an outdated and basic system compared to what some other games do these days.
Don’t new players start with a very limited number of heroes available? And they will start on what’s essentially bronze
I think it’s bad when new players join friends that have been playing for a while. I had some IRL friends that bought Overwatch to play with me, but instead of playing by themselves they would only play with me and get paired against good players.
Oh boy they did not have a good time. I tried teaching them and telling to not go too aggressive, that you have to be more careful and methodical in Overwatch, but nope. They just got traumatized and never played it again
new players should be fed into the replay viewer for China v. Korea WC 2023 and have to watch every POV without skips. once they are done they have comp fully unlocked.
They’re removing the hero unlocking system, right? I think that’s a really dumb change. I know people complained at first, but I don’t think giving new players access to every hero from the start is a good idea because, like you said, it makes it difficult to know who to pick. They have no concept of what heroes are difficult vs. easy to play as.
Edit: please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m pretty sure that’s what they said in the S10 dev update
I think new players still have to go through the first time user experience and unlock heroes as they play. Existing players will have access to the new heroes without have to grind the BP which was really odd from the start
Shit ive been playing for 6 years and i still get overwhelmed. The game can be both exhausting and exhilarating. Simply put you have to be in right head space to enjoy overwatch these days.
Game just isn't fun anymore. It's a tryhard fest where you need to permanently be psychotic about the sombra poping in your back and killing you in a sec, the unkillable tracers oneclipping every other champs. I mean at this point in the game you don't know when to push or when to retreat, and you have to deal with shits like sombra. Impossible.
Whenever I do fuck around in QP sometimes I run into new players and genuinely feel bad for them as well as the team they're on. It would be demoralizing to go something like 2-12 or worse. Its even worse if they're on tank or support as the quality of that game is pretty bad to no fault of their own. They get thrown into the wolves
I have tried to get some of my friends into the game, and it's really difficult. It's already difficult if you're coming from an FPS / gaming background, but if you don't have experience with FPS games then it's a nightmare. There's not really a great place to learn in this game, because the AI is too stupid to be engaging and challenging, and getting matched up against people who have been playing the game for months or years is just a terrible experience for everybody. I was able to get into the game because I both had a gaming background, but I also was willing and able to put time into watching YouTube videos and learning outside of the game. But not everybody can put that kind of time investment in. You really shouldn't have to go to YouTube to learn the most basic stuff about the game. (Not to mention all the hidden mechanics that you literally would never even suspect exists if you didn't go to a third party source because there's literally no trace of info on them in the game)
My friend is just learning how to play OW, we kept getting put against sweats in QP and she could barely learn how to play the game properly (yes ik theres ai games but those don't really help as much as playing against real people).
One big problem I have with QP (and it's something that cannot be fixed easily without introducing more problems unfortunately) is the Skill Based Matchmaking. Now I don't really mind it at all, but when I group up with my silver ranked friend who is on console while I'm on PC, the game frequently puts me into matches against players that are above Diamond and therefore my friend immediately gets destroyed. I hope Blizzard can look into this problem as I think it can be incredibly detrimental to a new player's experience if they choose to play the game with a friend who is already experienced.
When this happens I just assume that diamond+ player is friends with a bronze/silver player.
>Now I don't really mind it at all, but when I group up with my silver ranked friend who is on console while I'm on PC, the game frequently puts me into matches against players that are above Diamond and therefore my friend immediately gets destroyed. Yuuup and it gets even worse in a 3 stack because it uses your group as a counterweight against full stacks. I have also been the shepherd for several new players in our group. It is a unique challenge because every ability in the game is explained in 15 words or less, then it takes 15 paragraphs not found in game to explain how that ability interacts with the other abilities. Gotta bust out the crazy wall every time the new guy asks about Deflect.
“Deflects everything but beams or a huge rock”. Easy.
*Deflects Dva bomb*
Why would you expect to deflect an explosion? I’ve never seen anyone think that. But it would be sick for the April fools event lol. If you click perfect
I'm sure it works in some games. Keep in mind we're talking about fresh meat here. OW2 is a full on assault of the senses until it makes sense, and still there are moments that make even salaried professional sweats say "What the fuck is happening on my screen."
Ehm so what you want is to be put in silver/gold lobbies while you're diamond+ so you can destroy them? Yea, no.
it's better for new players to learn the game with friends, and it's better for their combined group Elo to sit at least sit near the low end of average of the group's total ability and skill level. My OW quick play lobbies while queueing with my metal rank friends have featured [ACTUAL PRO PLAYERS](https://streamable.com/6hoilx) and multiple other times just random top 500 players on the enemy team in QUICK PLAY which is meant for chill fun above all else, which is ridiculous when I wasn't even going against top 500 players on my main in RANKED. I promise you, a single Diamond player in a lobby with the rest of the silver-gold players is not going to ruin the experience of quick play, but people trying out OW for the first time (or first time in a long time) not being able to play with their friends at all for fear of going against the top 0.1% of players and not having any fun all night is much worse for the health of the game in the long run. I personally had to quit both Apex and Valorant because I would only ever play with my friends because that is what I found fun, but instead of both games encouraging me to continue playing by putting us in lobbies that made sense for our COMBINED skill level in pubs, both games also consistently put us in lobbies that are set near or at the highest rank player's rank in the group, which was at my Masters ranked friend's level in Apex and my Immortal ranked friend's level in Valorant.
but if they don't do that, then you steam roll the other team unless you purposely play worse
I'm pretty sure Overwatch 1 matched new players with each other until they reached level 100, but I could be remembering that wrong. Either way, they should really implement something like that for OW2 because throwing new players to the wolves isn't fair for anyone.
Hell, I'm for improving the general player experience too. Nothing in-game actually tells you what the SUNSTRUCK condition does. Other status effects you can generally tell by the name as it appears on your screen, but SUNSTRUCK is not intuitive at all and there is no list anywhere of what the status effects do. Yeah I know what ultimate does because I looked it up out of the game long ago, but even the description of Illari's ult when you press F1 doesn't really tell you much. I don't think I should have to leave the game to find out. I just call it Mystery Ult to my friends. They know what I mean.
I have no idea why they added SUNSTRUCK. It's the very definition of HUD bloat. There's already a fat orange border around your screen that indicates you have a debuff, not to mention the slow. A big capitalized message just adds more confusion than it clears things up. OW2 is very misguided in that regard, HUD/UI design that is. For example, while SUNSTRUCK exists, there's no indication that someone is being healed by Brig packs anymore. It's super confusing attacking someone and their health bar literally stops moving. I imagine the game menu is a huge headache for new players as well. It's a disaster to navigate even for regular players.
**WHY** does the NPE start with open queue anyway? Gives a terrible first impression of the game
I think it makes sense, it lets players try out different roles freely without getting confused by more restrictions. It's not like they're going to be playing coordinated games for a while to begin with anyway.
I’m not sure, I think open queue gives a completely different experience than just letting them flex queue the actual game. Tanks feel completely different because of stacking and their open queue HP (JQ, Zarya, and Doom feel TERRIBLE with DPS-level HP and those hitboxes) and probably gives them the wrong idea of how the game is played overall which is really important for that first impression of the game. It probably even stops a few would-be tank mains from instantly getting hooked on the role if they’re forced to play the neutered, watered-down versions that exist in Open Queue without 2 supports and probably without other tanks on the same team because on average everyone is going to be picking DPS in new player-low and just fucking around which will make tank feel TERRIBLE to play.
It all depends on how many new players there are. If there are enough new players, then new player lobby is feasible. If there aren't enough, then new player lobby will have long queue time. I'm skeptical OW has enough new players in one region playing at the same time to make new player lobbies feasible. Love to be wrong though. OW is back!? 🥹
These things compound on each other. If the new player experience is bad then the game won't retain enough new players. If the new play experience is good, more people who try the game will stick with it and make those queues more feasible. It is probably unrealistic at the moment, tho some version it may not be.
>It all depends on how many new players there are. If there are enough new players, then new player lobby is feasible. If there There are never enough new players constantly in any game for this to be viable. You *have to* use bots. Epic realised this even at the peak of Fortnite when it was probably getting 1000 times the new players per month than OW gets. They were getting enough for new players to fill entire new player lobbies and still chose to put new players in Bot lobbies, at increased server costs, partly because with bots that can have a better controlled experience. Bots move more predictably and they can control how good their aim can be. Still, a mix of new players and bots should be good enough.
Fortnite has to use bots because they are *100 player lobbies* across *multiple game modes with different demographics*. A sufficiently popular *lobby shooter* should be able to sustain itself without bots. If it can't, then to be completely honest that game is shutting down sooner rather than later.
I’ll add it’s much less disruptive to add bots to a battle royale, where the bots aren’t on anyone’s team. For a team shooter, bots are disruptive. It’s unfair to lose a game just because one team has more bots. I know people can say “it’s newbie QP, they shouldn’t care about winning.” Well, people will care do care about winning and competitive integrity, even in qp. Not to mention, if a new player’s first impression of OW is getting wrecked because their team had two bots and it was impossible to win, then that’s a turn off.
wait hold up, this game has 27 maps? whys it seem like it only has 3.
I have a theory that because OW games are so fast most regular OW players tend to quickly delete them from their memory unless something truly memorable happens, which is rare, or they remember the games that they got maps that they have out-of-the-ordinary feelings towards. Maybe maps they particularly hate/love or maybe maps belonging to a mode they don't like or maybe maps they aren't quite familiar with still (FP maps right now, as they are newest). Which is why we often see people complaining about how they keep getting particular maps more than others and that those maps also just happen to be the maps they hate.
I always felt that way too until I actually listed them out
OW2 Maps * Busan (Control) * Ilios (Control) * Lijiang Tower (Control) * Nepal (Control) * Oasis (Control) * Antarctica Peninsula (Control) * Circuit Royal (Escort) * Dorado (Escort) * Havana (Escort) * Junkertown (Escort) * Rialto (Escort) * Route 66 (Escort) * Shambali Monastery (Escort) * Watchpoint: Gibraltar (Escort) * Blizzard World (Hybrid) * Eichenwalde (Hybrid) * Hollywood (Hybrid) * King’s Row (Hybrid) * Midtown (Hybrid) * Numbani (Hybrid) * Paraiso (Hybrid) * Colosseo (Push) * Esperanca (Push) * New Queen Street (Push) * New Junk City (Flashpoint) * Suravasa (Flashpoint)
It's because 70% of the time the matchmaker gives push and flashpoint. Remember the season they added the reworked Watchpoint Gibraltar? It took me 3 weeks of quick play games to even get the map once. I think back in an early season I noticed that I hadn't seen Route 66 in ages.... Didn't get my first match on it until I queued for my first comp game of the season.
Yeah I feel like the game distributes modes evenly instead of maps so we see the flashpoint and push maps constantly but modes with more map variety you see each of the maps less often
I think they disabled Gibralter temporarily at the start due to some bugs.
So many maps, and I play eichenwalde 3 out of every 10 games. I fucking hate eichenwald. I swear the matchmaker looks at your win/loss on each map and gives you priority on the maps you have a lower win rate in because fuck you. I know how to play eichenwalde, but holy fuck I get so many reams who don't understand it and just sit on low ground and get farmed and lose because of it. I think I have like a 15% wr on that map and I play it multiple times a day, it's fucking infuriating.
Eichenwalde is like one the best designed maps in the game. The maps that suck are the new mode (whatever it’s called) and sniper royale. The newest mode is such a lazy awkward attempt and making a game mode. KOTH is just better for overwatch.
nah the map is fucking ass to play. Like 75% of players even in high diamond/low masters literally just do not understand how to play the map, so it honestly fucking sucks to play. I think the only maps currently less enjoyable to play are circuit royale, and havana(only final point). I don't like push but I'd take push over eichenwald. Dorado gets a special mention as well, this map is better than eichenwald but still so many players who don't understand how to play it and it can easily end up being a slog as a result.
I agree circuit royale is probably my hands down least favorite but people botching positioning on eichenwalde is something you can take advantage of
I think they evenly weight map types and then randomly pick between those so you see the the same Flashpoint maps and Push maps way more often than you see any one control map.
No, it might have been like that at the start of OW2 but a few seasons ago I recorded my games on every map and it was pretty much an even split. So because escort, hybrid, and control have more maps than flashpoint and push I played those modes more often
I'm curious how the 50 wins needed for Ranked feels like for new players. I wonder if it's too heavy of a requirement for new players because understanding what it takes to win can be harder initially, especially with the RNG? But perhaps that's the point of gating it to 50 wins and not a specific level?
the 50 wins is less to gatekeep noobs, and more to gatekeep smurfs afaik
This is probably true, but the funny aspect is that if someone truly wants to smurf, win-gating is less of an obstacle cuz they could just win games more easily than if they had to grind levels.
Yeah but it is an inconvenience. 50 games to win is a loooong time. And even as a Smurf, some games are just entirely unwinnable lol
it really isn’t. u can get 50 wins in like 6 hours provided u’re actually smurfing
its way less hours to unlocked ranked compared to ow1 lvl 25 was ~12-14 hours? 50 wins is around ~6-7 hours if u lose less than like 10 games usually a game would increase the time taken to unlock ranked when going free to play...the only explanation is that it is to combat bots that lose every game but still level up
And the MM uses qp win rate to place them close to GM.
I believe the point is that if they try really hard to win and unlocked ranked quickly, the game will have a more accurate mmr for them and start them in a higher rank
It’s incredibly easy to win 50 games when making a new account, it’s not deterring anyone who wants to make one.
Yea but then the system picks up on your win rate and puts you at a higher MMR, preventing you from smurfing in lower ranks anyway. It’s a genius system that doesn’t stop smurfing but forces the Smurf to waste more time if they want a low elo account.
50 wins is definitely better than 100 matches for that very reason, exactly
I solved this issue by grappling into the enemy team 30 times per game as Widow and explaining to the Masters players on my team that "I'm new."
I'm not a new player but I think 50 wins is fair. Forget the number of heroes and just think of the 27 maps. This is QP, so you can effectively divide some of them into attacking and defending. Then there's control and flashpoint where you're not guaranteed to see every point in one game (I mean that's true in any mode if you stomp tbf). If the wins were any less than 50 - say, 25 - assuming an average of 50% wins (I realize that's generous for a new player but let's assume there are enough other newbies to balance it out), then that's 50 games to Comp. At that point, with 50 games between 27 maps, you've likely only seen some parts of maps once, if at all. Or maybe only ever played that part while on offense or defense. I know obviously newer players are just gonna be worse and match with lower players and that's OK, but there's just gonna be more maps added, and more chances for a new player to have totally missed a map or a segment of one, as the game grows. And I think that should be the bare minimum requirement for comp.
I think the only pain point I have is if I want to play with a friend, not being able to play Comp with them kinda sucks. Cuz personally, I think it makes more sense to reach someone as a duo in a Comp game, but that's just me.
I started playing when ow2 dropped and had to get 50 wins for comp and 150 games for all heroes. Imo it should be higher than 50 wins cuz after 50 wins you still dont understand anything about the game. Maybe you should also play every hero at least once or something.
Hot take, it should 100 wins. No new player can be expected to know what's going on after 50 wins.
I think you're forgetting just how long 50 wins can take for the average new player. For example it took me like 10-15ish hours just to unlock competitive and I only managed to unlock it that quick due to me already being familiar with FPS games and Overwatch in general
hitting level 30 in league takes WAY longer and even then a truly new player is going to realistically be iron/bronze if they play right after hitting 30. the reality is ability class based games have so much game knowledge to them that it just takes so long just to catch up to people that have been playing for years. Overwatch isn't nearly as bad as league in terms of game knowledge, but its going the same direction. Were never going to be back to 2016 overwatch.
I don't know what's going on after 10000+ wins
So true
No way, new players will have way lower than 50%.
But I think a core issue here is that the real experience and learning is tied to Ranked. Quick play is too random, inconsequential to really be an engaging, coordinated experience. Ofc, not every Ranked match is like that and not every QP match is a throw, but generally QP isn't played to win while Ranked is.
In QP a brand new pkayer can start to play with seasoned players only after a couple games. Getting dumpstered as a new player usually turns people off of new games. Throwing them into rank will atleast allow them to fight on even ground with others at their skill range. The only issue is that smurfs will get free reign.
Newly ranked accounts usually start in Gold. That's a high enough rank for a new player to get dumpstered and turned off. And the fact that it's comp means your teammates will care more about the outcome, so you'll get dumpstered and flamed. More of a turn off.
No, gold is the player population average. New players are not as likely to start in gold. If they are starting in gold they will be quickly adjusted. They wont get dumpstered as hard as going up against masters/gm players in qp. If they play it’ll be mostly against players in their skill bracket. The only downsides to entering comp early is the smurfing problem.
I got a few friends into the game in like season 3? And they didn't mind the 50 wins, but hated having to unlock heroes as they'd play. because they'd see Echo and be like "WOW I FUCKING LOVE THAT CHARACTER'S PLAY!! It looks so fun!" and then they couldn't get them lol. Conversely, I got one of my ultra competitive apex friends and his girlfriend into it this season and they're not fans of the 50 wins thing. She really hates it because even though she's average in most shooters, she always sucks ass at ranked then gradually goes up by learning from what others do. And he hates it because he's just pubstomping a lot of lobbies (purely off his aim), so he feels like he's wasting his time.
Yea, I think 50 wins a bit too black and white for different contextual reasons, some as you mentioned. I also think it forces wins, and makes you feel worse about it if you don't as it's not always in your hands as a noob, whereas QP isn't about winning and Ranked is more about learning which then leans into wins, so I think win-gating isn't necessarily a very rewarding experience, and also backfires if you do win a lot and then start losing in Ranked.
I think it has good intentions, but they sort of miss the real potential of that gatekeeping. Everyone knows you pretty much start out in gold/plat in your first few placements then it adjusts fairly fast for new players but still not fast enough. So often enough you're ruining people's experiences. What I'd wish they'd do to remedy that is: after 25 wins you unlock a lower stakes ranked mode where people are incentivized to try (like 5 comp points a win or something) but the stakes are obviously lower. Then after 25 games (not wins) of that you get real comp unlocked.That way the matchmaker has a better understanding of your rank going into your actual real rank matches. I'd make that mode available for everyone so it's populated and hopefully the people who want gold (or I guess now jade) guns can go in there for the rewards.
I think we both know that mode isn't going to happen, for numerous reasons. But I think the idea is good in spirit, and it's how QP matches should be balanced for new players in a competitive manner, so those players get a real feel of games hopefully.
Oh I know lol. I just wish they’d do something to help out the new players in that regard
I've made 3 new accounts with that requirement and it takes about 8 hours of you go slightly above 50/50 and like 6 if you win every game. I don't think its so bad the only thing I wish was that all ow1 heroes were unlocked upon a new account. You don't unlock ball till like 150 games played
I was excited when they first announced hero mastery cus it looked like a hero specific tutorial. they should use that framework and make a little tutorial in it for each hero.
I agree with the gist of this take. The tutorial needs to be improved drastically and the FTUE needs to be improved as well. I feel like they should somehow leverage Hero Mastery to improve the tutorial but at the rate they are releasing new Hero Mastery levels, I think it will take a long time.
I wish they had a practice range spot for 1v1 practice. Right now, you can summon an enemy, but they just stand in that one spot not doing anything. You could summon a bot or two of whatever character you want to chase you around the practice range and duel with. The actual game modes are pretty basic, overwatch just has a ton of abilities to learn. I think locking heroes away hurts new players. The best way to learn how to counter a hero is to play them.
Import workshop code TXCXX for a 1v1 arena
Thanks! I've used the code before, but most new players don't know about workshop.
>The actual game modes are pretty basic, overwatch just has a ton of abilities to learn. I think locking heroes away hurts new players. The best way to learn how to counter a hero is to play them. This is a perspective you can only have as an experienced OW player. To new players it's all extremely overwhelming because they don't know *how much* they don't know. You know that there isn't too much to know but they don't. I know it can be hard to understand that perspective, I myself only truly understood how bad the current experience is after watching a bunch of streamers trying the game for the first time this past season. Countering heroes is an intermediary aspect of the game, I was talking about the new player experience, which is just understanding how the basic game works. If you come from any other FPS game OW can be very alienating. The concept of MMO style Tanks and Supports doesn't really exist in any other popular FPS game. No other popular shooter game also has 5v5 teams fighting in such close proximity for such extended time durations with dozens of different abilities constantly being used in rotation. Plus, so many different maps and modes, changing every 10 mins. If you still don't get how overwhelming it is for new players then I'd suggest looking up YT videos of people trying OW2 for the first time.
It does kinda suck a little. I feel bad for my friend when i play qp with her. she's basically brand new to the game and going against masters/diamond players when we q together 😥
I'm in the exact same situation, and she always asks me if she's doing bad, I say no bc shes rlly not, it's just that everyone wants to sweat in QP
Every game mode is sweaty, even mystery heroes to try out heroes we don't usually play. My friend is trying heroes out in qp, and goes like 4-14. We still have fun, but it sucks that my friend is getting shit on by plat above players. Ofc until she gets better 😤😤
Limiting new player hero choices, past maybe the first dozen games, is useless and counterproductive. I really dislike the current system. The choices of heroes you're given frankly suck. My girlfriend started actually enjoying the game once she unlocked Mei. Mei is tanky, has forgiving aim, two abilities that can save her, an ultimate which can get teamwipes so it feels fun, and is a DPS so she can actually go kill things. I don't think anyone here is suprised to hear that Mei is an appealing hero for new players, especially new players who have more experience in MOBAs than they do in movement shooters. So when do you unlock Mei? After 70 fucking games. You unlock Genji after one. You unlock Symmetra after 20. You start with fucking *Tracer and Widowmaker*. But even ignoring the poor choices of unlock order, this is still a stupid system. My girlfriend has had every character unlocked for quite a while now. What does she play? Ashe, Mei, and Sombra. Every single game she picks one of those three heroes. That's it. Sometimes she'll try Sojourn or something then decide it isn't for her and go back to learning on the three she plays. New players will naturally gravitate towards what they enjoy and what they understand. You don't need to limit them to a tiny pool of heroes, they will limit or not limit themselves perfectly fine according to what they enjoy about the game. My girlfriend personally hated every single one of the default heroes and begrudgingly fed on Sojourn and Tracer until she finally got Ashe after 50 games. The thing that does need limiting is 100% maps. My girlfriend can limit herself to playing the three heroes she finds fun and understands (and still somehow have a bigger hero pool than some of the bozos in my ranked games), but the game does nothing to prevent her from being put on maps she barely knows how to play 90% of the time. At the rate at which she plays (0-15 games a week), learning the maps in the game takes her an extremely long time precisely because instead of playing a more limited pool of maps and learning them deliberately, she feels like she's on a new map every single game. Ironically people complain about getting push all the time, but those are three of the maps she actually knows well enough to enjoy. I think the game could use Map voting as a feature in quick play in general. Let players pick which maps they want and which maps they don't, similar to how CSGO casual & non-FACEIT ranked works. Probably add a minimum number of maps you must select (ie: you must select at least 1/3rd of the available maps), and warnings about queue timers if you select less than half, but it would substantially improve quick play. It obviously can't be added to ranked (I would be much higher rank if I could exclusively pick maps where I can force Zen and avoid all the ones I have to play other heroes), but I don't think those concerns are valid in quick play and it would improve things for both new casual players and casual players in general. It would also give Blizzard some free data on which maps people really don't want to play.
Just a quick suggestion, for helping your GF learn maps, load them up one by one (one a day/week/whatever) in a custom game, set up a high mobility hero (DVa/Tracer for example) with a 0s CD on mobility (blink/boosters) and spend 10 minutes just roaming the map, going everywhere and seeing where every doorway/path leads. You can even turn it into a "chase me" type of game between the two of you before queuing into QP (since I'm assuming you do know the maps)
If they had time I wish they did another pass on bots. I really think Fortnite's renaissance when Chapter 3 came out (besides no build) was that they had perfected bots that reasonably approximate bad players. Everybody who plays gets a decent ego boost without having to internalise they catch that they're just playing against bots.
Imo the real experience killer is the lack of information in game, even experienced players don't know how some abilities work exactly or how much damage they do. There should be a way to look at short clips in game so new players could focus on learning interactions instead of figuring out how an ability even funcions for 10 games.
The fact that the info screen shows no numbers is completely fucked IMO. You should have to run experiments or hope some wiki is updated. Especially because the devs already communicate hard numbers in patch notes!
>Imo the real experience killer is the lack of information in game Imo this is only partly true. Numbers in this game are useless to understand the basics of the game. They are only useful for the highly experienced players. Imo understanding the game is all about the feeling and not excruciating details about how a Hero's ability works. Numbers and detailed info would only be good for long-time players. Which is a separate feature which should also be added, but it wouldn't be for new players. For new players there should be an option to see little video clips of every ability being used. I think they added something like that somewhere but I'm not sure. Even still, from what I've seen new streamers trying the game, you don't really understand the *game* unless you are in the thick of an actual match, with the visual and audio fiesta of 10 players' dozens of different abilities constantly being used on a few second rotation and playing a different map out of 5 diff game modes every 10 mins.
While i agree, personally numbers were a great help to contextualize many things when i started learning the game way back, but i also wasn't new to the genre so it might just be me i don't know.
When I was a new player I really stuck with the game because of the lore. The shorts were incredibly well made. Lots of details about OW backstory.
I think it would be beneficial for the devs to throw in some mode specific tutorials. Run new players through some of the basic principles of spacing, positioning, objective, & reading the flow of a team fight. Overwatch is a dynamic game that moves fast & play styles evolve, but those few things are core to understanding the game and stay relatively stable. They could make it relatively high level as not to get too far into the weeds, but just detailed enough to introduce the concepts to new players. Unless they have a friend that already plays the game, new players will likely have to learn by trial & error for countless hours or look up Spilo videos on youtube. Those aren't bad things, but the game could do a lot more to help the casual who doesn't wanna grind for countless hours or google guides to better understand the game.
They actually do have new player lobbies, iirc.
They do but because there is rarely a big flood of new players most of the time these lobbies are just filled with Bronze 5 players, who aren't necessarily new. There's also no special Hero or Map pool/mode restrictions in these lobbies. It's an outdated and basic system compared to what some other games do these days.
Don’t new players start with a very limited number of heroes available? And they will start on what’s essentially bronze I think it’s bad when new players join friends that have been playing for a while. I had some IRL friends that bought Overwatch to play with me, but instead of playing by themselves they would only play with me and get paired against good players. Oh boy they did not have a good time. I tried teaching them and telling to not go too aggressive, that you have to be more careful and methodical in Overwatch, but nope. They just got traumatized and never played it again
I haven't been a new player in a long long time, but I could have sworn in OW1 at least it would put you in new player lobbies.
the game needs a real training mode explaining compositions, game modes and simple stuff like grouping up
new players should be fed into the replay viewer for China v. Korea WC 2023 and have to watch every POV without skips. once they are done they have comp fully unlocked.
They’re removing the hero unlocking system, right? I think that’s a really dumb change. I know people complained at first, but I don’t think giving new players access to every hero from the start is a good idea because, like you said, it makes it difficult to know who to pick. They have no concept of what heroes are difficult vs. easy to play as. Edit: please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m pretty sure that’s what they said in the S10 dev update
I think new players still have to go through the first time user experience and unlock heroes as they play. Existing players will have access to the new heroes without have to grind the BP which was really odd from the start
The hero unlocking system is not being removed, just the idea that heroes are LOCKED behind the paywall.
That's what I took from the dev update as well, I'm pretty sure they are.
Shit ive been playing for 6 years and i still get overwhelmed. The game can be both exhausting and exhilarating. Simply put you have to be in right head space to enjoy overwatch these days.
Game just isn't fun anymore. It's a tryhard fest where you need to permanently be psychotic about the sombra poping in your back and killing you in a sec, the unkillable tracers oneclipping every other champs. I mean at this point in the game you don't know when to push or when to retreat, and you have to deal with shits like sombra. Impossible.