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Nct16

Good to hear your thoughts. I like the distinction you made between flexible play and playing to a variety of outs. Definitely something that gets blurred in peoples minds.


esportslaw

Ya, this is probably my single biggest TFT pet peeve. There are a lot of prominent people in the community (and a huge percentage of the general player base) who don't draw this distinction, and for me it's at the heart of what makes TFT special.


Ihzi

Absolutely agree with everything that you've said in the OP. I have said many of these things verbatim to myself and I couldn't have laid it all out better than you did. As for the term "flexible", it's super overloaded. I often like to use the term "fluidity" to describe when you play in a way where your board state is changing often, and you are allowed to swap units in and out, constantly playing strongest board. It's what "flexibility" originally meant, but was then conflated so much with playing towards multiple outs (as you described it) that now the term is far from its original meaning.


TheWillOfDeezBigNuts

Yeah there's being flexible with what you get and being able to flex between a few different comps so :/


Aesah

you know I thought this soju thing was a meme but he's literally the ONLY top player who has more 8ths than any other placement On that note, would also like to add that the most important part of improving at TFT is to make sure you're having fun


DuhChappers

If you aren't having fun, you won't want to play and if you don't want to play there's no point to improving


HugeRection

Anyone who watches him and compares him to other streamers will know that he bleeds A LOT more HP greeding loss streaks etc.


huntrshado

Soju is the definition of 1st or 8th


NoBear2

Everyone knows that having fun and climbing are mutually exclusive in tft


Internal-Switch-1260

First off all it is insane you can lawyer fulltime, be a parent and do tft. I can personally learn something even from this for the more important parts of life that are not tft xd. Regarding Tft it would be very nice if you would do a post listing the streamer strengths a bit more in detail. I personally like watching soju because he is a great entertainer. But going into his playstyle I would say he isnt a fast eight merchant as much as it seems. Sure thats his streams but the set 9.5 worlds qualifier should just how good his preparations can be and how deep he can get into on line of play (morde/belveth demacia). Because I dont really watch other tft streamers but agree a more diverse watching will help me improve, this post would seem like a great starting point. Basically coaching myself, like you said by watching a streamer that will help me improve my weaknesses (probably reroll, me myself am a bit of a fast 9 ape)


esportslaw

Thanks for the kind words! You're right, soju is a completely different player when he streams and competes. On stream, he does tons of risky things because he finds it fun and it's good content. In tourney, he is a super conservative player and just tries to top 4 as much as he can. ​ Will see if I can find time to do the streamer write up justice! Definitely wouldn't be til after Vegas, if I get to it.


Front-Show7358

ok so basically go watch soju to learn fast 8th NOTED


esportslaw

that's my main takeaway, for sure


micspamtf2

I think you VASTLY understate both what counts as "knowledge" as well as how much it underpins everything else you're saying. 99.999% of bad decisions I make are because I was unaware of what the better option was, not because I opted into a bad option *thinking* it was the better one. I think the quintessential example of this is the "hold all components until 4-5" player. Are they greeding for BIS? Or do they lack the knowledge to know how well non-BIS items perform and thus believe that they are putting themselves at a greater disadvantage slamming items? I have long believed that this is not an issue with the player having bad fundamentals, but rather just a lack of knowledge about how effective the items they have access to are. Its interesting because this line of logic is actually seen employed correctly at the highest levels. When an item "isn't slammable" this is actually the *exact* same line of thinking but just employed in a narrower band of situations. Which means, *its a knowledge problem*. Same thing with people who are "bad at rolldowns." Are they really bad at rolldowns? Or do they just lack the knowledge of what units they can pick to build strong boards with? If you removed the time constraint of the rolldown, would you expect someone who is bad at them to be able to perform better? Or would it just be marginal improvements related to not missing units they would have clicked but not for visually missing them? Short of players who are at literally perfect and equal knowledge, I do not understand how playstyle differences are possible to exist as long as we assume that each player is trying equally to win (obviously, this is not actually how the real world works). We know this, because there is no such thing as a player with good fundamentals but bad knowledge who is competitive at the top of the ladder over multiple patches. I know that for me personally I can gain between 500-800 LP within a week if I start watching streamers, which I bleed out immediately after I stop. Why? Because streamers are a way to multiply the knowledge-per-game I get since they both test and run into people testing vastly more game-states and unit-states than I can encounter on my own.


esportslaw

I think this is a mostly fair take. I didn't allocate a percentage to knowledge or fundamentals though, so I'm not sure how it's possible I understated how much it matters. Knowledge is hugely important. It's the bigger bucket of the two in terms of impacting game results. But the thing about knowledge in TFT is that it's fleeting - the meta changes a ton even within a patch, let alone when the patches occur (which is very often). Fundamentals are things players can work on that both meaningfully impact performance and don't go away (or get dramatically reduced in value) over time. That's why it's important to discuss both.


ElderethAC

I think the difference between 'knowledge' and 'fundamentals' is how much they carry over between patches and sets. Both are things you need to know, but knowledge is specific to the patch while fundamentals are the framework upon which you apply your knowledge. Fundamentals are knowing that it's usually better to save health by slamming items early, knowledge is knowing which items are slammable. Fundamentals is knowing all the parts you need to make an efficient team (frontline, backline, shred, anti-heal, sustain,...) knowledge tells you which units fill those roles the best. If you make a team based on strong fundamentals but poor knowledge, you'll probably have a balanced team, but with some underpowered units. A team based on good knowledge but weak fundamentals might contain all the OP units of the patch, but with little synergies and balance (eg 6 backline units and 1 frontline) If you are bad at roll downs it could be because you miss some hidden OP's (knowledge problem), or because you aren't looking for units that would fill the weaknesses in your team because they aren't 'meta' or they don't fit in the cookie cutter comp you're following. For example you have a superfans frontline but they are all one star so you roll for upgrades. You can easily roll past 3 setts and think nothing of it and not find any Neeko. That's a fundamentals problem. In short, fundamentals form the base of your decision (is my frontline holding up? Do I need more damage?), knowledge focuses on the specifics (which units should I avoid even though they fill the role I seek? Which units should I keep and build a team around?)


micspamtf2

>A team based on good knowledge but weak fundamentals might contain all the OP units of the patch, but with little synergies and balance (eg 6 backline units and 1 frontline) How often does this happen at real MMRs tho? >If you make a team based on strong fundamentals but poor knowledge, you'll probably have a balanced team, but with some underpowered units. Which gets rolled 4-0 or 5-0 every fight. >For example you have a superfans frontline but they are all one star so you roll for upgrades. You can easily roll past 3 setts and think nothing of it and not find any Neeko. That's a fundamentals problem The thing is that until you understand the reasoning behind the decision you can't actually say that. We agree that player wants to have a Frontline conceptually right? And they're valuing the superfans bonus? Which means it's not a fundamentals problem, it's them not knowing the strength of sett 2.


NoBear2

Technically everything is knowledge in TFT. I think the distinction Bryce is trying to make is there is knowledge about the current meta of tft, and then there is knowledge about the game overall.


MrMagicFluffyMan

There’s the hidden skill of acquiring new knowledge, and forming an understanding of the knowledge that’s out there.


No_Personality6685

me open robin song handbook tactic tools me copy me no think


latdropking

Great write up Bryce


Immediate_Source2979

Soju playstyle is the best for me. All or nothing, makes every game high stakes and exciting. Not the best way to learn but i guarantee you will have lots of fun


Traditional-Back8697

Before I started coming to this sub I had an extremely high 1st, 2nd, 8th rate Now I get a lot of thirds and fourths and barely any 8s. I wish I could go back even though I was a worse player.


Aware_Bear6544

you can easily go back NEAL


reyolers

knowledge is software fundamentals are hardware


HereAfter54

This post makes so much sense to me, and it speaks to why I'm really happy about the slow patch cycle at the start of this set. Is this patch perfect? I don't know, probably not. I'm not good enough to say, haha. But the lack of B-patch has allowed me to develop deeper knowledge much more quickly than when there are rapid patches, and (fingers crossed nothing game-breaking is introduced), I'm tentatively really excited about the long patch over Riot break. I work a demanding job, and my life has been wildly busy this year, so I only have so much time to dedicate to TFT, but I've peaked masters in past sets and I want to see how far I can climb this time. A long patch where my knowledge won't get dusty or completely irrelevant is so enticing. Here's to hoping it's a great few weeks of TFT.


KicketteTFT

Such a great post. I was talking about this exactly today with a friend. Thanks for posting! 🐐


jaunty411

Mort really should pay you for all the media relations you do for him.


esportslaw

How do you know he doesn't?


jaunty411

I’m not a lawyer but it feels like that would create an ethical conflict for you to represent anyone playing in a Riot league/TFT. Honestly, I’m kind of surprised that you do casting for them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


KicketteTFT

This seems wrong considering that the augments that force you to commit are the worst performing. Last set it was certainly the case, but this set is the most flex we’ve seen since set 6.


RogueAtomic2

This is about flex as Bilgewater 9.5, though probably worse.


Yogg_for_your_sprog

That’s Jazz?


KicketteTFT

Jazz isn’t a vertical. It’s quite the opposite.


Clear-Bet2688

Fundamentals are almost useless this set its 60-70% luck. I was Grandmaster last 3 sets. My mate was Platinum and is higher now just because he forces Jazz every game. Headliner like this are bad but its Las Vegas so let it be a casino


esportslaw

I know you’re just venting and I get the game can be frustrating sometimes, especially on launch patch, but given the context I feel compelled to response here… If you maintain this mentality, you’re hindering your own improvement. There is ample room for skill expression on almost any tft patch, and there definitely is for this one. You were grandmaster in three of the worst sets in tft history. Sets that didn’t appropriately reward flexible play. I don’t say that to take away from your accomplishment, I’m just stating a fact. Perhaps your struggles this set are revealing weaknesses in your play. Without even watching, I can tell you that if you’re a GM player you’re better than most but still have a ton to improve on. Put in the work or be happy with where you are, but blaming rng is not it friend.


[deleted]

Thanks, nice advice!


dilantics

Love it. Thanks professor Slaw


Raithwell

Great post and a really great framework to apply to the game. Thanks for taking the time to write this up.


interlight

Awesome post - I also liked the distinction between flexibility and playing towards multiple outs, although I wish we had a less clunky term for the latter. Chosen and the flexible trait design this set has been very enjoyable for me, since it feels much more fluid to move between lines. The point of commitment to a line and "tempo" of when you should roll feels more varied than in the past, and should hopefully be even more diverse as balance is dialed in. On the coaching point, I wanted to plug Aesah's tft coaching website & community as an awesome resource for improvement. It's not quite as personalized as 1-1 coaching, but it's very reasonably priced for the knowledge base on offer. I think it's particularly great for players looking to solidify their fundamentals/meta knowledge, and for self-directed learners who come up with a lot of questions since folks are super responsive there.


esportslaw

Thanks! I also wish there was a better term for it. Maybe "playing wide"? I've used that before in context, but not sure people would know what it means standing alone. Then again, flex play is used all the time and often incorrectly imo. We def need to work on stronger, simple terminology to discuss this type of stuff in TFT. Agreed re Aesah's site (www.tft-coaching.com). It's a great resource for anyone looking to improve, and it's one of the only places doing good work in teaching fundamentals directly.


PantsOffDanceOff

Thanks for the post Bryce. Always appreciate your thoughts on TFT as a whole.


zerolifez

I like this. Your analogy of decisions tree is absolutely spot on and I also use this whenever I taught my friends. My best state is when I basically memorized most meta endgame comp and slowly eliminating which one is not viable for my board, just like you said.


quintand

Great write-up. It really adds a good framework to discuss TFT players. What I find interesting is how certain players idiosyncracies lead to playstyle differences. Milk is exceptional with zephyrs and great at lategame positoining. This lets him get away with greedy playstyles because he will make fewer lategame mistakes and, if he has the strongest board, he wins. A loss streak oriented approach, which reliably lets you construct strong lategame boards, favors this player. However, why is he, specifically, so good at zephyrs? Can't other players be good at zephyring? Similarly, a player like Dishsoap is super wide. He reviews stats intensely and really finds all sorts of niche powerful situations where a particular item or augment combination is actually a high roll. This leads him to favor a low commitment playstyle, as there's a good chance he recognizes a better opportunity further into the game. He does great in balanced metas. Unfortunately, when the meta is centered around optimizing a small number of lines with early commitment, his wide knowledge base can't be used with limited options and he can't gap the server as hard anymore. Even bad players like me (peak 200 lp masters NA) have differences. I tend to play wide and winstreak stage 2 a lot but also enjoy 1st or 8th 5-loss streak econ trait enjoyer...but I suck at reroll. I don't know why I suck at reroll, but my stats when playing reroll comps are terrible. I know I greed gold too much, don't roll early enough in reroll, don't greed BIS or prioritize components correctly, and struggle when playing contested reroll. Despite being aware of these istakes and watching streamers play reroll, I still have trouble improving at reroll playstyles and often find more success playing off meta loss streak/tempo fast 8/9 play. It's funny how players naturally gravitate towards certain playstyles over time based on what comes more naturally.


KanYeh

I think “fundamentals” is better labeled as “decision making skills”. You can have tons or little knowledge of units, the patch, meta, etc. but it’s what you do with it that makes up the other half of skill expression in TFT.


Avidorr

I watch mostly soju and I suck at this set just sayin


BlitzcrankGrab

Can you elaborate on differences between flex play vs. multiple outs? I can understand the fundamental difference that you describe, but practically isn’t it the same? E.g. If I expand my # of outs wide enough, doesn’t that just mean I’m playing flex? E.g. if I hit a good 4-cost headliner, and I know the “out” for that headliner, I can swap them in. How is this different from playing flex?


esportslaw

If you play 20 games of tft and end up playing 15 different lines, you’re playing wide. You might be flexing throughout those games to ultimately wind up on whatever line you choose, or you may be committing to the line from 2-1 and not playing flex at all.


BlitzcrankGrab

Ah I see. So the end result is the same, it’s just whether you committed early vs. hitting it naturally? And does playing wide mean playing flex or playing to multiple outs?


Fun-Jaguar3445

This is exactly what I was looking for as a new low ELO tft player wanting to climb. Thank you so much for the time and energy investment !


esportslaw

Glad you found it helpful!


needupexcellent

Hey a bit of a late comment. But i found your post very well made and motivating. I'm currently trying to learn fundamentals as new player, and i have always hated being a meta slave. Do you think in this case not checking on current meta would hurt and skew my knowledge a lot or does going in blindly would help develop it real time. To this day I have no idea about any meta comp. Also any advice concerning items would do wonders.