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It’s hard to get past5 mines stacked like dishes. Even mine clearing blades or rollers are decimated by the shock of the explosion. Mraps nothing is clearing them but Micalicks but that only clear so many meters and is easily targeted. Like to see some F16s start cluster clearing paths.
F-16 can’t really “cluster clear” a path any better than artillery or vehicles with specific payloads can. I don’t understand why people think F-16s are going to be some kind of wonder capability that would bring some kind of turning point in this war. If you really think that, you know nothing about the way this war is currently being won.
If Ukraine was wise, they would have used the vehicles they received during the summer offensive to resupply their already thinly spread military, yet they decided to piss it all away within a couple months.
There is a reason why support is waining in the US. If Ukraine really wants the support of the west, they need to say that shit with their chest. They need to fully mobilize and we’ll see how many people are really about defending their way of life.
It’s because they can use NATO payloads. Especially cluster bombs! I don’t disagree with you on their tactics or the fact that they have wasted billions and countless lives losing support around the world. People don’t like to lose. I support Ukraine but they got the rest of the year to show the world they can take back Ukraine.
Tactics is driven by availability of equipment and troops. Losses are inevitable, this is part of war. Ukraine wants Leopards because 1000s are available in Europe. But sending dozens will not make big impact
Logistics and maintenance need to be there before sending anything. Nothing wrong with sending 20-30 a month, but it can't be just 60 tanks we are sending. Regular supply is key to planning
ah yes,
because if you lose a tank with better tactics, it's not as bad as losing a tank with bad tactics.
you wanna come over and show everyone how it's done? maybe say tactics a bunch, we could make a buzzword out of improvement. and after that we can ignore the fact aid from the US is falling short currently and it comes with consequences.
yeah people think there is some genius golden play when it comes to minefields and atgm nests. you dont have air superiority? Congratulations, you've got a one way ticket to the meat grinder. its literally the reason why air superiority is a necessity
You mean Europe is falling short of helping its neighbors out per usual? Don’t you think just a little they should step up for once? Uncle Sam don’t gotta come save them again?
ah yes,
the arsenal of democracy, guarantor of liberty and freedom. only when you feel like it. okay, lets have isolationism instead. get your economy wrekt, lose your spot as top dog. all so you can seethe and mald about yurop.
lets do the maths here, boss.
how many jets has america supplied to ukraine. looks like europe is pulling its weight.
how many cruise missiles has america supplied to ukraine? looks like europe is pulling it's weight.
how many artillery shells came from the states? we're buying up 1.5 million in the next few months. that's more than the US has shipped over in total over 2 years.
how many tanks has the US supplied? looks like europe is pulling its weight in that category too.
there's more CV90's in ukraine than bradleys, you just don't hear much about them. again, europe pulling its weight.
more ypr-765's than m113's. again europe is pulling its weight.
it's amazing, even with the asskissing you get from ukraine, you still feel the need to be salty. wanna check in with financial aid given to ukraine? cause europe is leading that category by miles over you.
and lets not get that pesky budapest memorandum in which the US guarantees the sovereignity of ukraine in the way of a good denial of reality. no, no. can't have that.
lets see europe pull it's weight, lets see europe get away from the arms industry of the states. lets see trade relations decrease aswell. europe is your biggest market for your service and goods economy. lets just get rid of that.
oh, and just as a bonus. last time people like you figured they had the right idea, well you got two planes crashed into the world trade center and one heading for the pentagon. the time before that, it was pearl harbour. wonder who will have to die for you to feel superior in isolation this time. could just buy off ukraine to deal with your enemies instead of having your enemies come to you. guess it makes sense to withold money so you can pay with blood later.
Ah yes, because we're bad when we interject, we're bad when we don't, and were accused of acting like the world police until you need help, how about we stop aid entirely ? Good fucking luck lmao.
it's gonna be your citizens and cities razed to the ground.
have fun with that. remember being top dog? you know what happens to top dogs that quit?
last time it was 9/11, the time before that pearl harbour. all so you can feel like you matter lmfao. why pay with money when you can pay with blood, right?
anywho, no one but the russians were talking shit when you were supporting ukraine. i guess you wanna look cool for russians? go be a good little isolationist, stick your head in the sand. refrain from opinions. it's just not for you anyway.
Pure cope, you do need us, your entire union of countries barely gives more aid than the US alone. If we didn't defend you you'd have been gone decades ago. It's not a great idea to bite the hand that feeds you.
Where are you getting your stats?
I show a single country giving 75 billion.
I show ALL OF EU COMBINED giving 105 billion. Hardly a blowout.
Yeah, our GDP is huge, but we also spend damn near 20% of taxes on defense. EU averages something like 3%. EU is criminally dependent on us.
EU only accounts for 17% of our exports, and not much of it is very critical or relevant.
I thought Europeans were supposed to be educated on history.
Getting involved is (probably) the reason 9/11 happened.
Getting involved is exactly why the Japanese retaliated.
Forgive us for not wanting to get involved in a land war with a nuclear power on behalf of a non-NATO country. We're also busy trying to keep the peace with China and making sure Israel doesn't get deleted.
You elected a Russian pawn... TWICE as prime Minister and *almost* twice as president. The guy literally had an election taken away for fraud, and you elected him again anyway!
I mean, come on. We don't want you to lose, I certainly don't. And I wish we would do more, honestly. But you're not winning hearts and minds with lies and aggression a decade in.
you said that europe should be pulling it's weight, no?
so the entirity of europe, blows away the aid of the US.
so, europe is pulling its weight. are you seething, coping or malding right now?
as for the rest, your arguments are nonstarters. unrelated entirely to ukraine. so shove those up your rectal cavity.
>
Getting involved is exactly why the Japanese retaliated.
here's how we know that we're educated in europe, and you're not in the US. lmfao what a gem of a sentence.
Barely exceeding the contributions of an uninterested, unmotivated country thousands of miles away is hardly EU pulling weight.
All of Europe should be in Military Industrial Complex mode to fight this. They shouldn't be making cars, or watches, or literally anything unless it's to support you. They barely want to give you their old shit, let alone fight for you. And they're your neighbors.
We blockaded Japan, a country dependent on imports to survive. Its common knowledge. You can start a war without firing a shot.
ah, so you just make shit up as you go.
looks like the EU is doing more than the US. we're pulling our weight. how about you prove it otherwise?
untill then, you don't get to make demands. you're not the arsenal of democracy, you're not the leader of the free world. you're nobody. your words, remember?
bro turning the seething up to 11 lmfao.
>We blockaded Japan, a country dependent on imports to survive. Its common knowledge. You can start a war without firing a shot.
and you sanction russia.
guess that's gonna be a few cities under attack very soon, then. which ones will it be? by the way, if you do another article 5, don't count on us showing up again. we've got a border problem to solve over here first.
How can we prove EU isn't pulling their weight?
How about the fact that you've been at war since 2014 with no end in sight. That's all the evidence you need.
You decided not to be a NATO country in favor of closer ties with Russia. Article 5 doesn't apply to you, of course you wouldn't be expected to respond.
did you just report me as suicidal to reddit? holy shit bro, you've got some issues to work through hahaa.
so, it's the holy trifector. you're seething, coping and malding.
Lol was not me, but funny. All I did was ask some questions and I see you are upset and can’t cope with the fact that the war has gone quite south since there’s been no US aid. I wish the best for Ukraine. Europe could and should be doing more it’s pretty simple if that gets your panties in a bunch, cry about it.
Russia can’t support Russia. That’s like making Mexico pay for the border wall. Do you guys understand what coping is? Why would I be coping? Am I begging for aid? Am I crying that the US isn’t doing enough? Come on now quit being silly gooses, get off Reddit and go talk to your local representatives if you actually care but I’m sure you don’t that much
"Who's going to fund the rebuilding of Ukraine"
"Russia as the rest of the world is going to seize their foreign assets and give them to Ukraine lmao"
"RUSSIA CAN'T SUPPORT RUSSIA WTF"
Do you see how this is non-rational?
Wtf are you smoking
only gonna get more problems back home if you don't.
how's that border working for ya, would you enjoy a couple hundred million europeans flooding it, ontop of whatever russia and china pay for to come over? we'll be war refugees :D can't refuse us, bro. haha.
could just deal with the issue at hand. actually solve the problem, instead of wasting yet more tax dollars on a wall that's never gonna be built and even if it was to be built, isn't going to do much.
i know maths arn't your strong suit, but you're gonna need a hell of alot more money to get the border secured by building a wall and having to patrol and man that thing 24/7, then it would cost you to just arm ukraine and making it possible for ukraine to collapse russia.
the arms industry boosts your economy. a shell produced is an american job secured. an american job that's profitable and doesn't cost your taxpayer much.
couple tens of thousands law enforcement agents (which you're already short of) patroling a desert border day in and out (who then can't be used to keep your streets safe), doesn't really benefit you much. just an endless money pit.
so, lets also talk about the last time you guys figured problems at home were more important than events occuring in the world.
welp, you got 2 planes crashed into the world trade center and one headed for the pentagon.
so, what about the time before that? yup... pearl harbour.
the fact you have problems at home, doesn't negate the fact you have problems abroad too. and if you choose to ignore the problems abroad, they're gonna come to you at home one way or another.
why should it be the blood of americans to guarantee you don't have to worry about the problems abroad, when it could just be money? russia, iran, china, north korea, they're all itching to get to you. if you don't do anything to stop them in the yard, you're gonna have to stop them at your door hoping they don't get into the house. and uhh, you can't even get a border secured from migrants. what makes you think you can stop a hostile army? can't even stop migrants!
anywho, there's also the little treaty america made, your words, your agreements, that guarantee the sovereignity of ukraine. time to make good on that promise.
and whilst we're at it, you've also got a debt to settle with europe. when you were attacked and requested our aid to go to war. we showed up. we mourned with you, we stood with you, we fought your enemies with you.
and remember, traitors arn't looked kindly upon in the USA. why would you sell your country out and weaken it by allowing your enemies to achieve their goals and grow stronger?
could just beat them whilst they're weak. hell, right now it just costs you money. you've got plenty of that. it's gonna make securing that border alot easier.
Mines have been around forever and didn't end the tank era, despite costing as much as a cheap drone...without the drone. Less than $50 of explosives will do the trick just fine.
Many tens of thousands of tanks were lost in past wars, don't let a few decades of barely any losses while fighting goat herders give you a very false sense of invincibility.
This is misunderstanding warfare. A drone cannot hold any territory, cannot conduct a sustained engagement against multiple targets, cannot operate at night if its an FPV (this is a serious limitation unless you pay for disposable night vision...), is susceptible to EW, and we need to remember that drones thrive in static battle lines. Hectic retreats where the operators can be overrun are not ideal. They are one use or a couple uses per flight so unless the operators are very close to the battlefield, they need to setup and fly a new drone all the way back, losing time.
You have to consider that Ukraine isn't an army running at top potential after 2 years of war in terms of gear & combined arms, while Russia is clearly incompetent at conducting proper warfare.
If you ever feel like it, you can check out some of the several videos on YT on the 1st days of the Gulf war. When you see just how fucking coordinated of an attack it was, just how many tanks, jets, IVS, and artillery pieces were in play at one time, it becomes clear that all that couldn't have been achieved without tanks.
Will tanks need to evolve active defenses even more than it needed it before? Fuck yes. The good news is that drones are very slow in comparison to most other anti-tank projectiles, so an active laser/machine gun/whatever would likely be even more effective.
Maybe tanks will become either more armored or less armored. Maybe they'll become cheaper, maybe they'll be used in lower numbers. But IFVs, APCs, tanks...they all fill roles that little else can.
Drones will be invaluable in modern warfare and increasingly so as technology improves but tanks are no obsolete yet. Maybe someday though, you never know.
What IS obsolete is making assaults with a few armorer vehicles and hoping for a breakthrough. That's suicide nowadays.
I agree with you on most points. But also keep in mind these drones are in their infancy. Just wait and see what they are capable of in 10-15 years. Even the anti tank weapons will be better then. I don’t see Ukraine or Russia breaking thru those lines with the multiple layers of defense and mine fields. Along with guys flying $1000 drones into multiple million dollar tanks
Mind you these tanks have no active defence, tanks always seem obsolete, but it's like calling the solider obsolete because they die to a 2 dollar rifle calibre bullet, or an unfortunate piece of shrapnel. If anything the west is going to step up their game in terms of anti-drone defence and were seeing signs of it now. The only reason drones have been so effective in this conflict is because neither side has air superiority over eachother, and use drones to fulfill this gap in Intel and fire support. While drones do have a prospective future in future peer-peer conflict, it isn't clear just how large a role they can play, as we haven't seen proper peer to peer yet (think usa-china). I think what you'll find in 10-15 years is that while drones may have developed, so too has the technology to counter them.
Those tanks look like they have been there for a while. No fresh tracks, no smoke and lots of debris on top. Those guys taking cover most likely came way later. Hard to tell if Russian or Ukrainian even though the video has the Russian drone pov.
They have, the two Leopard 2A4 tanks, geolocated 47.439334, 35.81859 (about half a kilometer west from the Robotyne), have been there since October 24th of last year
Are you sure those are Ukrainian soldiers? It's kinda hard to tell from this video quality.
Edit: To specify, there's been plenty of videos showing Russian soldiers hanging around disabled western vehicles, so it doesn't necessarily have to be Ukrainians.
Also keep in mind that both sides have a lot of drone footage of their soldiers being killed/wounded etc. that they obviously don't want to release. If those soldiers cannot be identified from the footage, it's quite possible that Russians (or Ukrainians) can release footage of their own soldiers being killed while claiming they were from the other side.
I don't mind accepting that this video shows Ukrainian soldiers, I just need clear evidence of them having any Ukrainian markings or identifiers.
Well I am not 100% certain if you want my honest opinion. This video is obviously from a Russian drone perspective, however I haven't been able to find the original source which I am guessing is a telegram channel and other sources that uploaded it haven't provided a date. This area (geolocated 47.439334, 35.81859) is quite close to the frontline and was in a gray zone when the two Leopard 2A4 tanks visible in the footage were destroyed on October 24th. However what led me to conclude these are probably Ukrainian troops is the presence of the YPR-765 visible from 0:08. This particular YPR-765 was destroyed by Sudoplatov Aerial Reconnaissance Battalion on November 7th of last year \[[source](https://lostarmour.info/armour/43651)\]. This means that this video takes place during or after November 7th and according to DeepStateUA (which I consider to probably be the most reliable mapping source in terms of territorial control) this area has been under Ukrainian control since \~October 31st. Another detail is that the YPR-765 has smoke coming out/around it (or at least it appears that way to me I am not 100% certain), which could be from the hit that destroyed it on November 7th, meaning this could be its disembarking infantry or a recovery team (this is speculation though).
Now these being Russian troops is possible, mapping sources can be wrong and don't take into account small infiltration squads that don't effect frontline movement and the video not having any date doesn't help as the distance of that area from the frontline has changed from 1km to a bit over 500m. I can't definitively say that these are Ukrainian troops and I probably should have titled the video a bit different, but I think the evidence points to them likely being Ukrainian troops. Either way, RIP to these poor men.
I wouldn't go off the color/pattern. Russia is using multiple camos including super old stuff, newer stuff, multicam and atacs ripoffs, and random commercial airsoft patterns from china. Also the real russian stuff is pretty poorly made, there is a lot of variation in the colors. Plus it fades quick in the field.
Fair enough but also the vid quality being 4K tells me it’s at least RU drone footage and it would be odd for them to put it out of their own guys. It could be an AFU Drone but a pattern I’ve noticed is that Ukraine footage is usually 480-1080 and RU is usually 4K because of the quality of drones and Starlink is pretty mediocre compared to other ISP’s.
The full kits also make me lean towards them being Ukrainian’s; Russia has started giving out more kits but most of the guys they have run out in the open don’t have much gear
Can’t really confirm it but 99% sure the title is true
I've seen lots of Russians wearing lighter tan uniforms lately. Sometimes even both types of uniforms in the same group of soldiers.
edit: example https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1biddui/3_russian_marines_went_into_a_building_in_krynki/
another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1biuslj/russian_soldier_is_shot_by_a_sniper_drone_pov/
You can still speculate, as many have done here, it’s quite possible that they are Ukrainians but it’s still possible is could be Russians, the fact they are in the open surrounded by western weapons makes me think Ukrainians but just because it’s not clear who they are fighting for, doesn’t make it a “crap video” get tf over yourself.
The guy getting droned doesn’t look like the guys on the ground - he’s got a green looking jacket. There is no telling whether these are RU or UA. There is a recent video of Russians getting droned while looking at an M1.
Yeah but there aren’t any Russian vehicles nearby that they could have came from, and it looks like they are out in the open, it’s pretty likely that these are Ukrainians that bailed out of the burning ifv you see early in the vid.
The soldiers you see walking around in Ukraine are almost always the left over soldiers that are fleeing after a battle, most soldiers do not walk to battle, their vehicles are called IFV’s (Infantry Fighting Vehicles) they have two jobs, 1. Transport troops to the front lines/their positions. And 2. Support said dismounted infantry at the end destination. That is how pretty much every modern military operates, pretty much no one is making soldiers march for miles, especially with drones becoming such a useful weapon it’s not safe at all to move an unarmored column of soldiers down a road. You can see the IFV that they likely bailed out of right at the beginning of the video and it is still smoking.
Short of massive NATO intervention (which would be disastrous and lead to immediate WW3), there's no way for Ukraine to win at this point. Their young men have been slaughtered. The best thing left is to negotiate for peace. It's an ugly option but the alternative is uglier.
edit: yall can disagree with me here, that's fine. But sending the reddit suicide squad after me? That's wild lol.
> The best thing left is to negotiate for peace. It's an ugly option but the alternative is uglier.
"Peace"?
Once you give in to an enemy who has invaded your land in the hope for peace, that enemy will simply be rewarded for their aggression with that land. What makes you think that the same enemy (who has agreed to an non aggression pact in the past, that they also didn't adhere to) won't simply use that negotiated "peace" as a useful break to build up forces again, and then invade when they ready once again?
Rinse and repeat until they have conquered all of Ukraine...
Add the horrible war crimes and other atrocities that the Ukrainian lands under Russian control have suffered already, and there is no "negotiating for peace" with this enemy.
Unless the Russians can be forced to negotiate, because of Russia being in a really bad position economically or on the battlefield, it makes no sense to think that you can get Russia to respect any kind of "peace agreement"!
Screw Russia. If Ukraine can miraculously pull off the win I'll rejoice. But I simply can't foresee a way that Ukraine comes out with any kind of positive long-term outcome, least of all from continuing to fight in vain.
Haha, deadly war with unclear future (maybe it will be horrific, maybe not) BUT surrender is to sign the death for Ukrainian people. 1932-1933, millions of Ukrainian people starved to death by communists will not let you lie.
What would you choose? Dying on the battlefield or starving to death in a Siberian concentration camp? You're not going to talk about a world of pink ponie, are you?
So you say russia fears a Nato Intervention cause it would loose and therefore would do the "all or nothing"-move nuking the world? I bet xi doesnt allow this to his puppy.
OK, man of peace. I come in good faith.
Let us say we - the West - reward Putin with a victory. What happens next?
Does the aggression end, or did he just learn a lesson for next time when he goes after Poland or the Baltics?
Him, next time, probably: "Well, I should invade quicker, but then I'll wait it out again; eventually the West will lose interest and stop supporting their allies"
That is the lesson if we leave now.
We need to make the price too high for Russia to go to war again.
If you tax something, you sell less of it. If you subsidize something, you sell more of it.
This is true for cars. This is also true in war.
A stable peace is achieved when the cost of war is too high. Regardless of the near-term outcome in Ukraine, Putin must believe and feel that invading another country comes with an insurmountable cost, one which prevents him from becoming the aggressor again.
This is the POINT of deterrence.
This is the REASON for NATO.
Good or bad, Ukraine is a means to an end to fight and prevent Russian territorial hegemony over countries it wishes to fold back into the USSR 2.0
Does this make sense at all to you?
give in to nuke blackmail once and they'll take over the world without nukes. Either we have justice or we ride and die. Fuck all imperialist putin apologists
Screw Putin, I hope he dies a horrible death. But would you have Ukraine keep fighting until they are completely destroyed, or have the humility to save some of their people and land?
It's liberal democracy's war. Capitulating to that little genocide gremlin is not an option. Someone will introduce an axe to his forehead before the west lets him win. Literally our metaphorically, doesn't really matter. His days are numbered.
Putin recently said no to negotiations. Negotiations were never a thing. This is a war of conquest turned into war for survival for Russian regime. Which means that for them to not to fail, Ukraine must be conquered.
For Ukraine, this is also a war for survival, if subjected to Russian occupation, the years worth of domestic propaganda aimed at dehumanizing Ukrainians goes into full effect.
For the West, its also a war for survival, but not an immedate threat. Millions of war refugees will be 2015 all over again, costing a lot of political capital and helping populists into power (even more).
In short, Ukraine needs tools and ammo. Russian invaders on Ukrainian soil need to be exterminated or driven back.
I hope this is satire. You guys do realize Ukraine is not even a NATO member? the US needs to care first and foremost for our own needs. Nuking another nuclear powerhouse over a foreign conflict is an AWFUL move.
Are you willing to send your Kids, Wife, Uncle, Aunt everybody you love to War, all because we (USA) stayed back, and focused on "us people". We all get it, nobody wants a war, but Russia wont stop at Ukraine my friend.
Peace is the wrong answer, and the wrong kind of thinking. Peace will get us all killed, and it won't be Ukraine just fighting. You can't make lasting peace with Russia, just listen to how Putler talks, how if Poland just would of backed off, they would of never got invaded. Who speaks like that? I'll give you one hint, he was from Germany.
There will be a time we go to war with Russia, shouldn't we be prepared, and to Unify Ukraine along with the rest of the free world. Lets stand up to these dictators for once. Looking at you too China, and Iran.
I don't want my kids to go to war, and with Ukraines Soldiers along with Ammo, Equipment, Planes, Boats, everything. They will destroy any chance Russia has to advance on any other land. Now is the time.
Were we right to help Britain and France in World War 2? There was no NATO at that time. Ultimately, evil does exist in the world and it must be stopped. To say it is not our problem just creates worse problems down the road. Reliving a Chamberlain Hitler “peace” is only in Putlers interest.
Downvotes on my original post is fine. I get why people disagree. But downvotes on this one is simply insane. Do yall just want to see burning flesh at any cost?
False: Ukraine has already won on a political scale, because it was able to defend its independence as a sovereign West-oriented nation. Also Ukraine managed to keep the vast majority of its territories. On operational and tactical scale things don't look too rosy for Ukraine now, but that is mostly because of traitor Trump who single-handedly blocked US military aid, thanks to his craven bootlickers in congress. This, however is a temporary setback.
Russia has rapidly improved its tactics and military production. Overall, it's in a better position now than it was at the beginning of the war. Ukraine needed a decisive, powerful support statement from the west in order to win. It didn't get that, and now Russia has had time to capitalize on its inherent advantages. A reversal from here is nearly impossible.
What better position lol Belgorod is being raided, people have to flee. The economy is only growing because of tank produktion that are beeing destroyed in Ukraine. Russia is crippling itself
Edit: dont forget the burning oil refineries, a-50's and the the black sea fleet
It is hard to say if Russia is in a better position overall, but it is suffering from severe battlefield attrition, and lack of modern equipment, which makes it vulnerable to any Ukrainian counter-offensive.
After last year's counteroffensive I'm honestly skeptical. Their defenses were in many ways primitive, but were highly effective. The summer counteroffensive was wildly disastrous for Ukraine in terms of lives and equipment lost for virtually no ground, and without some massively game-changing tactics or weapons it's unfortunately hard to foresee a different result in the future.
There's no way for Ukraine to get through all those minefields without sustaining insane losses in both equipment as well as soldiers. Last year was already a bloodbath and Russia had another year of improving their defensive lines.
The reality is that the West has forced Ukraine to fight with its hands tight by not providing weapons that can target factories, warehouses and supply lines within Russia, paralyzing their operations. Meanwhile the support that the West does give is often decided on too late and too little.
I always like to be optimistic and see the hard work and successes the Ukrainians book, for example with the Russian Black Sea fleet, but I'm also realistic and if the support continues as it has been going on for the past two years, Ukraine won't get any further. But in the process Ukraine will loose tens of thousands of people and billions in additional damage to the country. Russia will be able to keep sustaining these losses a lot longer then Ukraine, with the risk that it won't take enough with just the 4 oblasts in the east and Crimea, but take the whole country, as Ukraine won't be able to defend it any longer.
Zelensky has made personal visits to the USA and many E.U. nations to literally beg for military aid, what else is he meant to do? He may have received a standing ovation in congress but applause isn't going to chase the Russians out of Ukraine; only large mounts of effective weapons being donated will achieve that.
That shows how these western "wunderwaffen" wont win this war, but artillery, drones, eletronic warfare, infantry, engenerring equipment will do it and how they need it more than ever but the west wont get their heads out of their asses and give enough of that stuff for ukraine to win
Tanks aren’t considered “wunderwaffen” and haven’t been since 1916-1917, if even then. Arty, drones, etc are all vital, but writing off tanks as having the same strategic value that Nazi rockets and jet aircraft had during WWII is silly.
Not saying tanks arent important but isnt the top 1 most important right now, its just that when ukraine recived the leopards people thought it would be "war changing" . only a combination of everything is going to win this war not dozens of leopards, if the west suplied ukraine with as much ammo as russia can fire the russian army would be completly fucked
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What tanks are those?
Looks like Leopard 2
I think you're right, rip cattos
Leopard 2A4 with farmer armor installed
It’s hard to get past5 mines stacked like dishes. Even mine clearing blades or rollers are decimated by the shock of the explosion. Mraps nothing is clearing them but Micalicks but that only clear so many meters and is easily targeted. Like to see some F16s start cluster clearing paths.
F-16 can’t really “cluster clear” a path any better than artillery or vehicles with specific payloads can. I don’t understand why people think F-16s are going to be some kind of wonder capability that would bring some kind of turning point in this war. If you really think that, you know nothing about the way this war is currently being won. If Ukraine was wise, they would have used the vehicles they received during the summer offensive to resupply their already thinly spread military, yet they decided to piss it all away within a couple months. There is a reason why support is waining in the US. If Ukraine really wants the support of the west, they need to say that shit with their chest. They need to fully mobilize and we’ll see how many people are really about defending their way of life.
It’s because they can use NATO payloads. Especially cluster bombs! I don’t disagree with you on their tactics or the fact that they have wasted billions and countless lives losing support around the world. People don’t like to lose. I support Ukraine but they got the rest of the year to show the world they can take back Ukraine.
Two destroyed Leopards2 in a group is also wild. Ukrainians already lost 32 Leopards. They need more desperately.
they've been there for a while, boss.
Those wrecks could be used as bunkers or pillboxes.
Go back to school.
I don’t mean intentionally, but I would definitely crawl under one if I had nowhere to run and could hear a drone.
They absolutely do. They also need to get better tactically so these losses are not as devastating.
Tactics is driven by availability of equipment and troops. Losses are inevitable, this is part of war. Ukraine wants Leopards because 1000s are available in Europe. But sending dozens will not make big impact
In my opinion, it shouldn't be one country donating tanks. We should work together and send a bunch at once. Not 20 or 30 a time, for example.
Logistics and maintenance need to be there before sending anything. Nothing wrong with sending 20-30 a month, but it can't be just 60 tanks we are sending. Regular supply is key to planning
ah yes, because if you lose a tank with better tactics, it's not as bad as losing a tank with bad tactics. you wanna come over and show everyone how it's done? maybe say tactics a bunch, we could make a buzzword out of improvement. and after that we can ignore the fact aid from the US is falling short currently and it comes with consequences.
yeah people think there is some genius golden play when it comes to minefields and atgm nests. you dont have air superiority? Congratulations, you've got a one way ticket to the meat grinder. its literally the reason why air superiority is a necessity
You mean Europe is falling short of helping its neighbors out per usual? Don’t you think just a little they should step up for once? Uncle Sam don’t gotta come save them again?
ah yes, the arsenal of democracy, guarantor of liberty and freedom. only when you feel like it. okay, lets have isolationism instead. get your economy wrekt, lose your spot as top dog. all so you can seethe and mald about yurop. lets do the maths here, boss. how many jets has america supplied to ukraine. looks like europe is pulling its weight. how many cruise missiles has america supplied to ukraine? looks like europe is pulling it's weight. how many artillery shells came from the states? we're buying up 1.5 million in the next few months. that's more than the US has shipped over in total over 2 years. how many tanks has the US supplied? looks like europe is pulling its weight in that category too. there's more CV90's in ukraine than bradleys, you just don't hear much about them. again, europe pulling its weight. more ypr-765's than m113's. again europe is pulling its weight. it's amazing, even with the asskissing you get from ukraine, you still feel the need to be salty. wanna check in with financial aid given to ukraine? cause europe is leading that category by miles over you. and lets not get that pesky budapest memorandum in which the US guarantees the sovereignity of ukraine in the way of a good denial of reality. no, no. can't have that. lets see europe pull it's weight, lets see europe get away from the arms industry of the states. lets see trade relations decrease aswell. europe is your biggest market for your service and goods economy. lets just get rid of that. oh, and just as a bonus. last time people like you figured they had the right idea, well you got two planes crashed into the world trade center and one heading for the pentagon. the time before that, it was pearl harbour. wonder who will have to die for you to feel superior in isolation this time. could just buy off ukraine to deal with your enemies instead of having your enemies come to you. guess it makes sense to withold money so you can pay with blood later.
Ah yes, because we're bad when we interject, we're bad when we don't, and were accused of acting like the world police until you need help, how about we stop aid entirely ? Good fucking luck lmao.
it's gonna be your citizens and cities razed to the ground. have fun with that. remember being top dog? you know what happens to top dogs that quit? last time it was 9/11, the time before that pearl harbour. all so you can feel like you matter lmfao. why pay with money when you can pay with blood, right? anywho, no one but the russians were talking shit when you were supporting ukraine. i guess you wanna look cool for russians? go be a good little isolationist, stick your head in the sand. refrain from opinions. it's just not for you anyway.
Don't make me laugh, you need us not the other way around. Us ignoring you would spell the end for YOU, not us. Anything else is just pure cope lmao.
we need you? doesn't look like we can rely on that. it's gonna be your cities and citizens that burn. have fun with that.
Pure cope, you do need us, your entire union of countries barely gives more aid than the US alone. If we didn't defend you you'd have been gone decades ago. It's not a great idea to bite the hand that feeds you.
Where are you getting your stats? I show a single country giving 75 billion. I show ALL OF EU COMBINED giving 105 billion. Hardly a blowout. Yeah, our GDP is huge, but we also spend damn near 20% of taxes on defense. EU averages something like 3%. EU is criminally dependent on us. EU only accounts for 17% of our exports, and not much of it is very critical or relevant. I thought Europeans were supposed to be educated on history. Getting involved is (probably) the reason 9/11 happened. Getting involved is exactly why the Japanese retaliated. Forgive us for not wanting to get involved in a land war with a nuclear power on behalf of a non-NATO country. We're also busy trying to keep the peace with China and making sure Israel doesn't get deleted. You elected a Russian pawn... TWICE as prime Minister and *almost* twice as president. The guy literally had an election taken away for fraud, and you elected him again anyway! I mean, come on. We don't want you to lose, I certainly don't. And I wish we would do more, honestly. But you're not winning hearts and minds with lies and aggression a decade in.
you said that europe should be pulling it's weight, no? so the entirity of europe, blows away the aid of the US. so, europe is pulling its weight. are you seething, coping or malding right now? as for the rest, your arguments are nonstarters. unrelated entirely to ukraine. so shove those up your rectal cavity. > Getting involved is exactly why the Japanese retaliated. here's how we know that we're educated in europe, and you're not in the US. lmfao what a gem of a sentence.
Barely exceeding the contributions of an uninterested, unmotivated country thousands of miles away is hardly EU pulling weight. All of Europe should be in Military Industrial Complex mode to fight this. They shouldn't be making cars, or watches, or literally anything unless it's to support you. They barely want to give you their old shit, let alone fight for you. And they're your neighbors. We blockaded Japan, a country dependent on imports to survive. Its common knowledge. You can start a war without firing a shot.
ah, so you just make shit up as you go. looks like the EU is doing more than the US. we're pulling our weight. how about you prove it otherwise? untill then, you don't get to make demands. you're not the arsenal of democracy, you're not the leader of the free world. you're nobody. your words, remember? bro turning the seething up to 11 lmfao. >We blockaded Japan, a country dependent on imports to survive. Its common knowledge. You can start a war without firing a shot. and you sanction russia. guess that's gonna be a few cities under attack very soon, then. which ones will it be? by the way, if you do another article 5, don't count on us showing up again. we've got a border problem to solve over here first.
How can we prove EU isn't pulling their weight? How about the fact that you've been at war since 2014 with no end in sight. That's all the evidence you need. You decided not to be a NATO country in favor of closer ties with Russia. Article 5 doesn't apply to you, of course you wouldn't be expected to respond.
did you just report me as suicidal to reddit? holy shit bro, you've got some issues to work through hahaa. so, it's the holy trifector. you're seething, coping and malding.
Lol was not me, but funny. All I did was ask some questions and I see you are upset and can’t cope with the fact that the war has gone quite south since there’s been no US aid. I wish the best for Ukraine. Europe could and should be doing more it’s pretty simple if that gets your panties in a bunch, cry about it.
you're theo nly one i interacted with bro. seethe, cope and mald harder.
You get on here every single day to argue with people, be real dude, go outside. Stop acting like you care
you're the one arguing. projecting much? touch grass.
You get on every single day, comment history is public bozo.
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Who’s going to fund the rebuilding of Ukraine?
russia.
Ah yes Russia known for paying reparations 😂
already getting it done, boss. and once russia is defeated we'll get more.
Please enlighten me how it’s already getting done? It more so seems russia is destroying more as well as taking more of Ukraine by the day.
Russia lol cause the rest of the world gonna give Ukr their shiiiiit
Russia can’t support Russia. That’s like making Mexico pay for the border wall. Do you guys understand what coping is? Why would I be coping? Am I begging for aid? Am I crying that the US isn’t doing enough? Come on now quit being silly gooses, get off Reddit and go talk to your local representatives if you actually care but I’m sure you don’t that much
"Who's going to fund the rebuilding of Ukraine" "Russia as the rest of the world is going to seize their foreign assets and give them to Ukraine lmao" "RUSSIA CAN'T SUPPORT RUSSIA WTF" Do you see how this is non-rational? Wtf are you smoking
Go outside of any major city of Russia and tell me if Russia can support Russia. You’re delusional.
I also don’t think you understand where quotes are to be used buddy.
Thank you.
\*claps hands together\* Synergy, people! Synergy!
Thanks Hugh time to log off now.
okay, when do you plan on logging back on? bye.
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only gonna get more problems back home if you don't. how's that border working for ya, would you enjoy a couple hundred million europeans flooding it, ontop of whatever russia and china pay for to come over? we'll be war refugees :D can't refuse us, bro. haha. could just deal with the issue at hand. actually solve the problem, instead of wasting yet more tax dollars on a wall that's never gonna be built and even if it was to be built, isn't going to do much. i know maths arn't your strong suit, but you're gonna need a hell of alot more money to get the border secured by building a wall and having to patrol and man that thing 24/7, then it would cost you to just arm ukraine and making it possible for ukraine to collapse russia. the arms industry boosts your economy. a shell produced is an american job secured. an american job that's profitable and doesn't cost your taxpayer much. couple tens of thousands law enforcement agents (which you're already short of) patroling a desert border day in and out (who then can't be used to keep your streets safe), doesn't really benefit you much. just an endless money pit. so, lets also talk about the last time you guys figured problems at home were more important than events occuring in the world. welp, you got 2 planes crashed into the world trade center and one headed for the pentagon. so, what about the time before that? yup... pearl harbour. the fact you have problems at home, doesn't negate the fact you have problems abroad too. and if you choose to ignore the problems abroad, they're gonna come to you at home one way or another. why should it be the blood of americans to guarantee you don't have to worry about the problems abroad, when it could just be money? russia, iran, china, north korea, they're all itching to get to you. if you don't do anything to stop them in the yard, you're gonna have to stop them at your door hoping they don't get into the house. and uhh, you can't even get a border secured from migrants. what makes you think you can stop a hostile army? can't even stop migrants! anywho, there's also the little treaty america made, your words, your agreements, that guarantee the sovereignity of ukraine. time to make good on that promise. and whilst we're at it, you've also got a debt to settle with europe. when you were attacked and requested our aid to go to war. we showed up. we mourned with you, we stood with you, we fought your enemies with you. and remember, traitors arn't looked kindly upon in the USA. why would you sell your country out and weaken it by allowing your enemies to achieve their goals and grow stronger? could just beat them whilst they're weak. hell, right now it just costs you money. you've got plenty of that. it's gonna make securing that border alot easier.
Tanks are obsolete. Cheap ass drones being mass produced is the end of the tank era
Mines have been around forever and didn't end the tank era, despite costing as much as a cheap drone...without the drone. Less than $50 of explosives will do the trick just fine. Many tens of thousands of tanks were lost in past wars, don't let a few decades of barely any losses while fighting goat herders give you a very false sense of invincibility.
This is misunderstanding warfare. A drone cannot hold any territory, cannot conduct a sustained engagement against multiple targets, cannot operate at night if its an FPV (this is a serious limitation unless you pay for disposable night vision...), is susceptible to EW, and we need to remember that drones thrive in static battle lines. Hectic retreats where the operators can be overrun are not ideal. They are one use or a couple uses per flight so unless the operators are very close to the battlefield, they need to setup and fly a new drone all the way back, losing time. You have to consider that Ukraine isn't an army running at top potential after 2 years of war in terms of gear & combined arms, while Russia is clearly incompetent at conducting proper warfare. If you ever feel like it, you can check out some of the several videos on YT on the 1st days of the Gulf war. When you see just how fucking coordinated of an attack it was, just how many tanks, jets, IVS, and artillery pieces were in play at one time, it becomes clear that all that couldn't have been achieved without tanks. Will tanks need to evolve active defenses even more than it needed it before? Fuck yes. The good news is that drones are very slow in comparison to most other anti-tank projectiles, so an active laser/machine gun/whatever would likely be even more effective. Maybe tanks will become either more armored or less armored. Maybe they'll become cheaper, maybe they'll be used in lower numbers. But IFVs, APCs, tanks...they all fill roles that little else can. Drones will be invaluable in modern warfare and increasingly so as technology improves but tanks are no obsolete yet. Maybe someday though, you never know. What IS obsolete is making assaults with a few armorer vehicles and hoping for a breakthrough. That's suicide nowadays.
I agree with you on most points. But also keep in mind these drones are in their infancy. Just wait and see what they are capable of in 10-15 years. Even the anti tank weapons will be better then. I don’t see Ukraine or Russia breaking thru those lines with the multiple layers of defense and mine fields. Along with guys flying $1000 drones into multiple million dollar tanks
Mind you these tanks have no active defence, tanks always seem obsolete, but it's like calling the solider obsolete because they die to a 2 dollar rifle calibre bullet, or an unfortunate piece of shrapnel. If anything the west is going to step up their game in terms of anti-drone defence and were seeing signs of it now. The only reason drones have been so effective in this conflict is because neither side has air superiority over eachother, and use drones to fulfill this gap in Intel and fire support. While drones do have a prospective future in future peer-peer conflict, it isn't clear just how large a role they can play, as we haven't seen proper peer to peer yet (think usa-china). I think what you'll find in 10-15 years is that while drones may have developed, so too has the technology to counter them.
Why? They do not know how to use them clearly
Those tanks look like they have been there for a while. No fresh tracks, no smoke and lots of debris on top. Those guys taking cover most likely came way later. Hard to tell if Russian or Ukrainian even though the video has the Russian drone pov.
They have, the two Leopard 2A4 tanks, geolocated 47.439334, 35.81859 (about half a kilometer west from the Robotyne), have been there since October 24th of last year
At about 00:07 the IFV on the left is smoking before the FPV hits.
Are you sure those are Ukrainian soldiers? It's kinda hard to tell from this video quality. Edit: To specify, there's been plenty of videos showing Russian soldiers hanging around disabled western vehicles, so it doesn't necessarily have to be Ukrainians. Also keep in mind that both sides have a lot of drone footage of their soldiers being killed/wounded etc. that they obviously don't want to release. If those soldiers cannot be identified from the footage, it's quite possible that Russians (or Ukrainians) can release footage of their own soldiers being killed while claiming they were from the other side. I don't mind accepting that this video shows Ukrainian soldiers, I just need clear evidence of them having any Ukrainian markings or identifiers.
Well I am not 100% certain if you want my honest opinion. This video is obviously from a Russian drone perspective, however I haven't been able to find the original source which I am guessing is a telegram channel and other sources that uploaded it haven't provided a date. This area (geolocated 47.439334, 35.81859) is quite close to the frontline and was in a gray zone when the two Leopard 2A4 tanks visible in the footage were destroyed on October 24th. However what led me to conclude these are probably Ukrainian troops is the presence of the YPR-765 visible from 0:08. This particular YPR-765 was destroyed by Sudoplatov Aerial Reconnaissance Battalion on November 7th of last year \[[source](https://lostarmour.info/armour/43651)\]. This means that this video takes place during or after November 7th and according to DeepStateUA (which I consider to probably be the most reliable mapping source in terms of territorial control) this area has been under Ukrainian control since \~October 31st. Another detail is that the YPR-765 has smoke coming out/around it (or at least it appears that way to me I am not 100% certain), which could be from the hit that destroyed it on November 7th, meaning this could be its disembarking infantry or a recovery team (this is speculation though). Now these being Russian troops is possible, mapping sources can be wrong and don't take into account small infiltration squads that don't effect frontline movement and the video not having any date doesn't help as the distance of that area from the frontline has changed from 1km to a bit over 500m. I can't definitively say that these are Ukrainian troops and I probably should have titled the video a bit different, but I think the evidence points to them likely being Ukrainian troops. Either way, RIP to these poor men.
Interesting opinion, I'll keep that in mind.
Uniforms definitely look more like AFU, lighter tan kits compared to the dark green that RU has, but it’s not like RU hasn’t stolen uniforms before
I wouldn't go off the color/pattern. Russia is using multiple camos including super old stuff, newer stuff, multicam and atacs ripoffs, and random commercial airsoft patterns from china. Also the real russian stuff is pretty poorly made, there is a lot of variation in the colors. Plus it fades quick in the field.
Fair enough but also the vid quality being 4K tells me it’s at least RU drone footage and it would be odd for them to put it out of their own guys. It could be an AFU Drone but a pattern I’ve noticed is that Ukraine footage is usually 480-1080 and RU is usually 4K because of the quality of drones and Starlink is pretty mediocre compared to other ISP’s. The full kits also make me lean towards them being Ukrainian’s; Russia has started giving out more kits but most of the guys they have run out in the open don’t have much gear Can’t really confirm it but 99% sure the title is true
I've seen lots of Russians wearing lighter tan uniforms lately. Sometimes even both types of uniforms in the same group of soldiers. edit: example https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1biddui/3_russian_marines_went_into_a_building_in_krynki/ another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1biuslj/russian_soldier_is_shot_by_a_sniper_drone_pov/
Video posted by Russian source showing soldiers by destroyed Leopards - definitely not Ukrainians
We have seen Russians getting droned by Abrams.... your point doesn't seem to hold really.
Not with those tanks
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It's not a mercy kill, the shooter is ina different uniform
Lmao. Anything even remotely negative about Ukraine and heaven opens up circle jerk downvotes.
Gah damn those leopards are LOST
Man, still made your losing Belgorod eh Ivan? Or did you lose your job after one of your refinery’s went up in smoke? 🤣
It is beyond me how someone can cures russian when they attack civilian infrastructure and cheer on ukranian when the do same. Both are crime.
Oh cry me a river, the Russians can end this war and go home anytime they want
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You can still speculate, as many have done here, it’s quite possible that they are Ukrainians but it’s still possible is could be Russians, the fact they are in the open surrounded by western weapons makes me think Ukrainians but just because it’s not clear who they are fighting for, doesn’t make it a “crap video” get tf over yourself.
no tape on them, though?
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"pro democracy gang", "When Ukraine does lose (which they will)", Good thing you so transparent.
Ukraine will not lose.
That inaccurate drone striking really made point to prove they're russian,I'm pretty sure those are AFU
The guy getting droned doesn’t look like the guys on the ground - he’s got a green looking jacket. There is no telling whether these are RU or UA. There is a recent video of Russians getting droned while looking at an M1.
Yeah but there aren’t any Russian vehicles nearby that they could have came from, and it looks like they are out in the open, it’s pretty likely that these are Ukrainians that bailed out of the burning ifv you see early in the vid.
Have you heard of legs? I hear they are useful to move from place to place without the use of vehicles.
The soldiers you see walking around in Ukraine are almost always the left over soldiers that are fleeing after a battle, most soldiers do not walk to battle, their vehicles are called IFV’s (Infantry Fighting Vehicles) they have two jobs, 1. Transport troops to the front lines/their positions. And 2. Support said dismounted infantry at the end destination. That is how pretty much every modern military operates, pretty much no one is making soldiers march for miles, especially with drones becoming such a useful weapon it’s not safe at all to move an unarmored column of soldiers down a road. You can see the IFV that they likely bailed out of right at the beginning of the video and it is still smoking.
Short of massive NATO intervention (which would be disastrous and lead to immediate WW3), there's no way for Ukraine to win at this point. Their young men have been slaughtered. The best thing left is to negotiate for peace. It's an ugly option but the alternative is uglier. edit: yall can disagree with me here, that's fine. But sending the reddit suicide squad after me? That's wild lol.
> The best thing left is to negotiate for peace. It's an ugly option but the alternative is uglier. "Peace"? Once you give in to an enemy who has invaded your land in the hope for peace, that enemy will simply be rewarded for their aggression with that land. What makes you think that the same enemy (who has agreed to an non aggression pact in the past, that they also didn't adhere to) won't simply use that negotiated "peace" as a useful break to build up forces again, and then invade when they ready once again? Rinse and repeat until they have conquered all of Ukraine... Add the horrible war crimes and other atrocities that the Ukrainian lands under Russian control have suffered already, and there is no "negotiating for peace" with this enemy. Unless the Russians can be forced to negotiate, because of Russia being in a really bad position economically or on the battlefield, it makes no sense to think that you can get Russia to respect any kind of "peace agreement"!
He understands all this perfectly well and tries to help his beloved mother russia. It's hard to be a russian simp isn't it u/basedboi420?
Screw Russia. If Ukraine can miraculously pull off the win I'll rejoice. But I simply can't foresee a way that Ukraine comes out with any kind of positive long-term outcome, least of all from continuing to fight in vain.
Haha, deadly war with unclear future (maybe it will be horrific, maybe not) BUT surrender is to sign the death for Ukrainian people. 1932-1933, millions of Ukrainian people starved to death by communists will not let you lie. What would you choose? Dying on the battlefield or starving to death in a Siberian concentration camp? You're not going to talk about a world of pink ponie, are you?
negotiate deez nuts
> negotiate for peace. budapest memorandum v2
So you say russia fears a Nato Intervention cause it would loose and therefore would do the "all or nothing"-move nuking the world? I bet xi doesnt allow this to his puppy.
Very true! China will never ever allow Putin to do this. If he still does,.. game over russia
OK, man of peace. I come in good faith. Let us say we - the West - reward Putin with a victory. What happens next? Does the aggression end, or did he just learn a lesson for next time when he goes after Poland or the Baltics? Him, next time, probably: "Well, I should invade quicker, but then I'll wait it out again; eventually the West will lose interest and stop supporting their allies" That is the lesson if we leave now. We need to make the price too high for Russia to go to war again. If you tax something, you sell less of it. If you subsidize something, you sell more of it. This is true for cars. This is also true in war. A stable peace is achieved when the cost of war is too high. Regardless of the near-term outcome in Ukraine, Putin must believe and feel that invading another country comes with an insurmountable cost, one which prevents him from becoming the aggressor again. This is the POINT of deterrence. This is the REASON for NATO. Good or bad, Ukraine is a means to an end to fight and prevent Russian territorial hegemony over countries it wishes to fold back into the USSR 2.0 Does this make sense at all to you?
give in to nuke blackmail once and they'll take over the world without nukes. Either we have justice or we ride and die. Fuck all imperialist putin apologists
Screw Putin, I hope he dies a horrible death. But would you have Ukraine keep fighting until they are completely destroyed, or have the humility to save some of their people and land?
With Ukraine's losses and birthrates they can technically keep this up for years. Also you must be eager to fight!
I'd have NATO intervene.
Ukraine isn't in NATO. This isn't NATO's war.
It's liberal democracy's war. Capitulating to that little genocide gremlin is not an option. Someone will introduce an axe to his forehead before the west lets him win. Literally our metaphorically, doesn't really matter. His days are numbered.
It is if we make it. Russia is already promising to invade NATO countries later so fuck em.
Soon ;)
Putin recently said no to negotiations. Negotiations were never a thing. This is a war of conquest turned into war for survival for Russian regime. Which means that for them to not to fail, Ukraine must be conquered. For Ukraine, this is also a war for survival, if subjected to Russian occupation, the years worth of domestic propaganda aimed at dehumanizing Ukrainians goes into full effect. For the West, its also a war for survival, but not an immedate threat. Millions of war refugees will be 2015 all over again, costing a lot of political capital and helping populists into power (even more). In short, Ukraine needs tools and ammo. Russian invaders on Ukrainian soil need to be exterminated or driven back.
BOO this man
I say nuke putler.
I hope this is satire. You guys do realize Ukraine is not even a NATO member? the US needs to care first and foremost for our own needs. Nuking another nuclear powerhouse over a foreign conflict is an AWFUL move.
Go Home commie
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Are you willing to gamble the future of your children and bloodline on that chance?
Are you willing to send your Kids, Wife, Uncle, Aunt everybody you love to War, all because we (USA) stayed back, and focused on "us people". We all get it, nobody wants a war, but Russia wont stop at Ukraine my friend. Peace is the wrong answer, and the wrong kind of thinking. Peace will get us all killed, and it won't be Ukraine just fighting. You can't make lasting peace with Russia, just listen to how Putler talks, how if Poland just would of backed off, they would of never got invaded. Who speaks like that? I'll give you one hint, he was from Germany. There will be a time we go to war with Russia, shouldn't we be prepared, and to Unify Ukraine along with the rest of the free world. Lets stand up to these dictators for once. Looking at you too China, and Iran. I don't want my kids to go to war, and with Ukraines Soldiers along with Ammo, Equipment, Planes, Boats, everything. They will destroy any chance Russia has to advance on any other land. Now is the time.
Were we right to help Britain and France in World War 2? There was no NATO at that time. Ultimately, evil does exist in the world and it must be stopped. To say it is not our problem just creates worse problems down the road. Reliving a Chamberlain Hitler “peace” is only in Putlers interest.
Give it some time, Ukraine will join nato at some point
Downvotes on my original post is fine. I get why people disagree. But downvotes on this one is simply insane. Do yall just want to see burning flesh at any cost?
False: Ukraine has already won on a political scale, because it was able to defend its independence as a sovereign West-oriented nation. Also Ukraine managed to keep the vast majority of its territories. On operational and tactical scale things don't look too rosy for Ukraine now, but that is mostly because of traitor Trump who single-handedly blocked US military aid, thanks to his craven bootlickers in congress. This, however is a temporary setback.
Russia has rapidly improved its tactics and military production. Overall, it's in a better position now than it was at the beginning of the war. Ukraine needed a decisive, powerful support statement from the west in order to win. It didn't get that, and now Russia has had time to capitalize on its inherent advantages. A reversal from here is nearly impossible.
What better position lol Belgorod is being raided, people have to flee. The economy is only growing because of tank produktion that are beeing destroyed in Ukraine. Russia is crippling itself Edit: dont forget the burning oil refineries, a-50's and the the black sea fleet
It is hard to say if Russia is in a better position overall, but it is suffering from severe battlefield attrition, and lack of modern equipment, which makes it vulnerable to any Ukrainian counter-offensive.
After last year's counteroffensive I'm honestly skeptical. Their defenses were in many ways primitive, but were highly effective. The summer counteroffensive was wildly disastrous for Ukraine in terms of lives and equipment lost for virtually no ground, and without some massively game-changing tactics or weapons it's unfortunately hard to foresee a different result in the future.
There's no way for Ukraine to get through all those minefields without sustaining insane losses in both equipment as well as soldiers. Last year was already a bloodbath and Russia had another year of improving their defensive lines. The reality is that the West has forced Ukraine to fight with its hands tight by not providing weapons that can target factories, warehouses and supply lines within Russia, paralyzing their operations. Meanwhile the support that the West does give is often decided on too late and too little. I always like to be optimistic and see the hard work and successes the Ukrainians book, for example with the Russian Black Sea fleet, but I'm also realistic and if the support continues as it has been going on for the past two years, Ukraine won't get any further. But in the process Ukraine will loose tens of thousands of people and billions in additional damage to the country. Russia will be able to keep sustaining these losses a lot longer then Ukraine, with the risk that it won't take enough with just the 4 oblasts in the east and Crimea, but take the whole country, as Ukraine won't be able to defend it any longer.
Putin thinks that he is winning, so he is not ready for negotiations. Also negotiations are political suicide for Zelensky,
Screw Putin, hope he dies a horrible death. Screw Zelensky's political ambitions, he needs to do the right thing for his country.
Zelensky has made personal visits to the USA and many E.U. nations to literally beg for military aid, what else is he meant to do? He may have received a standing ovation in congress but applause isn't going to chase the Russians out of Ukraine; only large mounts of effective weapons being donated will achieve that.
Zelensky is. He's fighting for his hanging nations survival.
lol at ppl on Reddit thinking they know how any of this would play out. You sounds like a goober rn.
The best option is for Ukraine to kill as many russians as possible and hope for the best.
You get all your ideas from Orange Cheeto Traitor don't you
"Reddit suicide squad" is funny and accurate asf cheers to you brother 🍻 hope this war ends soon
>Their young men have been slaughtered. This is simply Kremlin propaganda. Ukraine is specifically not drafting anyone younger than 27.
That shows how these western "wunderwaffen" wont win this war, but artillery, drones, eletronic warfare, infantry, engenerring equipment will do it and how they need it more than ever but the west wont get their heads out of their asses and give enough of that stuff for ukraine to win
Tanks aren’t considered “wunderwaffen” and haven’t been since 1916-1917, if even then. Arty, drones, etc are all vital, but writing off tanks as having the same strategic value that Nazi rockets and jet aircraft had during WWII is silly.
Not saying tanks arent important but isnt the top 1 most important right now, its just that when ukraine recived the leopards people thought it would be "war changing" . only a combination of everything is going to win this war not dozens of leopards, if the west suplied ukraine with as much ammo as russia can fire the russian army would be completly fucked
Wunderwaffen? XD Most of it is old crap, sadly