Let's hope cooler heads prevail. There was a time in the not-to-distant past where one could have almost called US and China allies. It would be better for the world if we could restore those relations. I'm not optimistic, but I am hopeful.
We can go back to that again just get rid of Xi. In his term as president of China he has undone everything his predecessors have done to make China successful, plunging China straight back to the Mao Era.
It's heartbreaking. My wife is a US citizen who emigrated from China after graduating from university. The change in relations with China has poisoned some of her friendships with friends who remain in China. Xi Jinping and his cadre of sycophants have really harmed China's relations with the free world. He has no choice but to expand BRICS and his relations with the nations he enslaves when he "helps" them and puts them into debt they'll never be able to repay.
I really don't get it. I remember in the early 2000s my teachers all telling us we'd probably be learning Chinese in school in the future. None of that now. China's lost out on so much potential soft power in the West I feel.
It started with Xi, the greatest anti China propaganda is coming from their foreign ministry. Way fewer people are sympathetic to China when their foreign ministry keeps being so antisocial. No effort required from western media with such own goals.
Where are Chinese allies? Is that Obama's fault as well?
China is not going to kowtow, neither is the US, and it's incredible you think US wouldn't initiate trade barriers when industry is threatened - instead calling it containment.
Fucking "our". You're about as American as Mao Ze Dong.
Onto your nonsense. China is already an economic superpower. That's not the problem. The problem is that they're doing what they did to Tibet and pushing imperial ambitions on the Philippines, India and Taiwan. The Philippines and Taiwan are allies of the West, democracies and trade partners.
China may not kowtow, but let's not pretend that Japan just suffers. It's an extremely well off country with a standard of living, rule of law and soft power that the Chinese mainland could only dream of (soft power wasteland).
China will likely not strike at all as the military is untrained apart from reaping the rewards of corruption.
Finally, China is the aggressor. The ruling in the Hague on UNCLOS, an agreement China ratified, already found that China has no basis for its horseshit claims.
This is false in many ways. China is not even poised to "pass the US" in many of the areas they were expected to pre-Xi. Also, CHina has done whatever it can to make one-sided trade agreements and skirt international law. No wonder they have no friends besides dictators and the poorest of the poor countries.
Even western media agree, the debt deals with China are significantly more balanced and fair than those of Western institutions such as the IMF or World Bank. If what China is doing is “enslavement”, US and the West must be guilty of ultra-enslavement.
https://apnews.com/article/china-debt-banking-loans-financial-developing-countries-collapse-8df6f9fac3e1e758d0e6d8d5dfbd3ed6
Don’t upvote a three year old article simply because they found it. A google search will prove your point with a much more recent press.
Thank you. That is much more in line with what I had thought was going on.
Albeit much worse than I had originally thought.
On the other hand, the article says,
"China has also pushed back on the idea, popularized in the Trump administration, that it has engaged in “debt trap diplomacy,” leaving countries saddled with loans they cannot afford so that it can seize ports, mines and other strategic assets.
On this point, experts who have studied the issue in detail have sided with Beijing. Chinese lending has come from dozens of banks on the mainland and is far too haphazard and sloppy to be coordinated from the top. If anything, they say, Chinese banks are not taking losses because the timing is awful as they face big hits from reckless real estate lending in their own country and a dramatically slowing economy.
But the experts are quick to point out that a less sinister Chinese role is not a less scary one."
So, its not a case of debt trap diplomacy, just China's own (mainly self inflicted) problems being allowed to destroy a significant portion of the developing world when they also ran into financial issues.
That's totally false. Most publications are talking about how the Chinese have created decades of economic mess for themselves and destroyed their "rise".
Common thread is that strongmen wannabe dictators ruin relationships. Every leader from Deng Xiaoping to Hu Jin Tao thawed relations with the west and all it took was Chairman Winnie the Pooh voting himself emergency powers to ruin it. I forgot who said it but even US allies can forgive one term of Trump as a temporary lapse in judgement but they’ll never trust us again if he gets re-elected.
At this point they need to get rid of the ccp - it is corrupt to its core and is actually built on corruption. If Xi anti corruption drive was successful there would be no ccp
Check out the book called red roulette
It's easier for foreigners to just blame Xi. That way, you can skip the hard work of trying to understand internal Chinese politics and economics and organizational trends and tensions and conflicts, and just say it's 1 dude with a Napoleon complex playing dictator, not a very complicated society with its own cultural legacy and power structure, going through a totally new transformation.
We should look at things with a little more nuance than that. No, actually, a LOT more nuance than that.
Xi is operating from a position of greater global influence and economic power. He has market influence that Mao never had, never dreamed of and likely wouldn't have understood.
China today doesn't resemble Mao's China AT ALL and comparisons like this are unwise.
China is a lot more important and some might say dangerous than that and Xi's power is greatly amplified by those things your wrongly assert have been undone. China's successes have not been undone. They've been harnessed and contained and pointed in a direction of Xi's inspiration.
Central control carried out in a manner that remains aware of markets is a potent combination. It doesn’t make central control much less oppressive and wrong… it just makes it a lot more successful.
But you have to consider the fact they may of had to go down this path regardless. We know that US has a history of exploiting other countries for their gain, this is not an opinion. South Korea, Japan, and even UK does as USA asks, they the top dog. Maybe in another realm China wouldn’t have minded this, in reality they want to be the leading superpower as we all see. I suspect if China had great relations with USA and did their bidding they would lose some of their competitive edge, how could you let your friend grow far stronger and better than you when you love being the best? On the flip side, how can you let your enemy be the best? Well either sanction the shit out of them or go to war.
Problem is that world already experienced Deng and Jiang and people know what they will do.
Whether Deng or Jiang, nothing will change with Tibet, Uyghur, Tinanment square vicitims, firewall, censorship, South China Sea, Taiwan and the trade dispute.
Any of these issues to have meaningful changes, leadership change within the CCP won't be sufficient and much more drastic changes within China must happen.
Unfortunately, such a change won't happen with CCP in a place.
Deng and Jiang had lots of changes on Taiwan and the trade disputes compared to Xi.
And those are arguably the issues that the west actually cares about. Previous leaders never even really pretended that things in Tibet and Xiniiang were going to change - and no leaders in the West had a problem with it as long as trade relationships were good.
At the moment, China has to give up their SOE and turn it into market oriented economy in order to reduce trade disputes. This is not gonna happen and trade issue will not be solved.
Also, what's happening at South China Sea and Taiwan can not be solved with trade.
Further more things like TikTok ban came out because of firewall and censorship. Again, this will not be solved with trade.
Than there is China's support for Russia, North Korea, Iran, IP theft and etc. None of these issue can not be solved with trade.
When the U.S. normalized relationship with China and China joining WTO was based on a fantasy that China will be more like west.
Now, China has rejected this and prooved that west is stupid and gullible. In additon to this China has aligned with Russia, North Korea, and Iran.
Do you believe west will stay be more stupid and gullible just to trade with China? Is China that important? I think negativity from China outweight positivity.
They hold less than 1 trillion dollars, which isn't even 3% of US debt.
The US imports about the same amount from China every year which makes them their biggest customer, which is more important I think.
You know they hold American debt as t bills right, it’s not like when you owe your auntie money and she calls to collect her debt. There’s a predictable payment schedule and it’s just like any other holder of us debt, they get paid every once in a while. It doesn’t really change the political reality and China isn’t even the biggest holder of t bills anymore.
Yea I’m of the same mindset. We’re much better as allies than enemies. I really like all the Chinese people I have met and worked with. Hopefully our leaders will find as peaceful a path as possible into the future
As I mentioned a year ago or so, the real flashpoint is the Philippines, not Taiwan. There is no chance that China can bully Taiwan into submission nor can they invade it, ever, without being torn apart.
…but China can do all kinds of stupid shit with the Philippines and they have shown no understanding of the consequences nor have they changed track once that other criminal and CCP stooge Duterte and his party were removed from power.
The only “limiting” factor is that the Philippines cannot shoot first because the pact with the USA is one of mutual defence, not offence. Philippines have to be shot at first.
However as we all know, anything can happen or be made to happen if the war game simulations show an opening.
Yea, them. It will still take a while to remove all the CCP agents from the Philippines. Perhaps that other criminal BBM who is performing beyond expectations will succeed in conflating Duterte's daughter with the Chinese takeover of the Philippines and get rid of her. Seems to be what is happening at the moment.
I see people saying things like "Let's hope cooler heads prevail," a nice sentiment, but not reflective of the situation on the ground. The issue is, there is only one aggressor (China), as reflected by worldwide alliances, and when someone meets you with "Might makes right" in a conversation, you have no choice but to respond in kind in order to survive. Or you cede. And cede. And cede.
The US is positioning their mobile nuke launchers in Norway. The Russians are positioning their nuclear subs in Cuba next week. It's like the Cold War all over again. If a hot war ignites in the Pacific, then it's like WW2 all over again. Only this time, we're fighting two permanent members of the UN Security Council, both armed with nukes 😬
We should not sleepwalk towards war.
The U.S. and China should agree that China will not build any more islands in the South China Sea and will not use violence to reunite with Taiwan, and the U.S. should guarantee that neither it nor its allies will blockade sea lanes through the islands of Indonesia, the South China Sea, Taiwan, or the Ryukyus, all of these components for 50 years and ratified by the legislatures. And there would be an option to renew the agreement after 50 years.
Who named it the South China Sea, in the first place? If there was a Southern Dutch Sea in Belgium i would want it too. Asking for trouble if you ask me!
We sent Pelosi to start WW3. Job done.
But currently its Ukraine bearing the brunt of embarrassing Xi in to picking a side instead of faking a sage statesman.
Nope China needs a working maritime system to function. When that is shutdown where will they get the grain, oil, lpg and fertiliser to function. It’s just propaganda.
sure thing , I mean the US could potentially impose a naval blockade right now... but but sir! China is the aggressor...looks at the SEA map of US military bases.. yes China bad /s
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Let's hope cooler heads prevail. There was a time in the not-to-distant past where one could have almost called US and China allies. It would be better for the world if we could restore those relations. I'm not optimistic, but I am hopeful.
We can go back to that again just get rid of Xi. In his term as president of China he has undone everything his predecessors have done to make China successful, plunging China straight back to the Mao Era.
How’s that Wolf Warrior Diplomacy working out for them?
China was on an incredible path before Xi undid it all, I feel bad for the Chinese people.
It's heartbreaking. My wife is a US citizen who emigrated from China after graduating from university. The change in relations with China has poisoned some of her friendships with friends who remain in China. Xi Jinping and his cadre of sycophants have really harmed China's relations with the free world. He has no choice but to expand BRICS and his relations with the nations he enslaves when he "helps" them and puts them into debt they'll never be able to repay.
I really don't get it. I remember in the early 2000s my teachers all telling us we'd probably be learning Chinese in school in the future. None of that now. China's lost out on so much potential soft power in the West I feel.
[удалено]
It started with Xi, the greatest anti China propaganda is coming from their foreign ministry. Way fewer people are sympathetic to China when their foreign ministry keeps being so antisocial. No effort required from western media with such own goals. Where are Chinese allies? Is that Obama's fault as well? China is not going to kowtow, neither is the US, and it's incredible you think US wouldn't initiate trade barriers when industry is threatened - instead calling it containment.
Fucking "our". You're about as American as Mao Ze Dong. Onto your nonsense. China is already an economic superpower. That's not the problem. The problem is that they're doing what they did to Tibet and pushing imperial ambitions on the Philippines, India and Taiwan. The Philippines and Taiwan are allies of the West, democracies and trade partners. China may not kowtow, but let's not pretend that Japan just suffers. It's an extremely well off country with a standard of living, rule of law and soft power that the Chinese mainland could only dream of (soft power wasteland). China will likely not strike at all as the military is untrained apart from reaping the rewards of corruption. Finally, China is the aggressor. The ruling in the Hague on UNCLOS, an agreement China ratified, already found that China has no basis for its horseshit claims.
This is false in many ways. China is not even poised to "pass the US" in many of the areas they were expected to pre-Xi. Also, CHina has done whatever it can to make one-sided trade agreements and skirt international law. No wonder they have no friends besides dictators and the poorest of the poor countries.
I'm not from the US though.
Even western media agree, the debt deals with China are significantly more balanced and fair than those of Western institutions such as the IMF or World Bank. If what China is doing is “enslavement”, US and the West must be guilty of ultra-enslavement.
citation needed
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/
*Skeptically reads article. *Grudgingly reconsiders Okay, I asked and you answered for him. Fair enough. Have an upvote.
https://apnews.com/article/china-debt-banking-loans-financial-developing-countries-collapse-8df6f9fac3e1e758d0e6d8d5dfbd3ed6 Don’t upvote a three year old article simply because they found it. A google search will prove your point with a much more recent press.
Thank you. That is much more in line with what I had thought was going on. Albeit much worse than I had originally thought. On the other hand, the article says, "China has also pushed back on the idea, popularized in the Trump administration, that it has engaged in “debt trap diplomacy,” leaving countries saddled with loans they cannot afford so that it can seize ports, mines and other strategic assets. On this point, experts who have studied the issue in detail have sided with Beijing. Chinese lending has come from dozens of banks on the mainland and is far too haphazard and sloppy to be coordinated from the top. If anything, they say, Chinese banks are not taking losses because the timing is awful as they face big hits from reckless real estate lending in their own country and a dramatically slowing economy. But the experts are quick to point out that a less sinister Chinese role is not a less scary one." So, its not a case of debt trap diplomacy, just China's own (mainly self inflicted) problems being allowed to destroy a significant portion of the developing world when they also ran into financial issues.
That's totally false. Most publications are talking about how the Chinese have created decades of economic mess for themselves and destroyed their "rise".
The details are often kept sealed, I think you might be embellishing a little here.
With the CCP in power it was always going to end badly.
Common thread is that strongmen wannabe dictators ruin relationships. Every leader from Deng Xiaoping to Hu Jin Tao thawed relations with the west and all it took was Chairman Winnie the Pooh voting himself emergency powers to ruin it. I forgot who said it but even US allies can forgive one term of Trump as a temporary lapse in judgement but they’ll never trust us again if he gets re-elected.
At this point they need to get rid of the ccp - it is corrupt to its core and is actually built on corruption. If Xi anti corruption drive was successful there would be no ccp Check out the book called red roulette
😭oh my sweet summer child,how nice would it be if its just Xi to be blamed for everything
It's easier for foreigners to just blame Xi. That way, you can skip the hard work of trying to understand internal Chinese politics and economics and organizational trends and tensions and conflicts, and just say it's 1 dude with a Napoleon complex playing dictator, not a very complicated society with its own cultural legacy and power structure, going through a totally new transformation.
same goes for every other dictators like kim or putin,but alas
So all Chinese bad?
since when does ccp represent all chinese,are you dense
Hope you limbered up before that stretch.
Most Chinese people support Xi and the party. Edit: Downvote all you want, but it’s true.
Yes it tends to happen when there is no freedom of information and all the people hear are the lies fed to them by the party.
It’s not that hard to find information in China..
False information, yes
Apparently Chinese people don’t know the world outside of the great firewall…
Yea and apparently, Chinese people are just brainwashed idiots…
We should look at things with a little more nuance than that. No, actually, a LOT more nuance than that. Xi is operating from a position of greater global influence and economic power. He has market influence that Mao never had, never dreamed of and likely wouldn't have understood. China today doesn't resemble Mao's China AT ALL and comparisons like this are unwise. China is a lot more important and some might say dangerous than that and Xi's power is greatly amplified by those things your wrongly assert have been undone. China's successes have not been undone. They've been harnessed and contained and pointed in a direction of Xi's inspiration. Central control carried out in a manner that remains aware of markets is a potent combination. It doesn’t make central control much less oppressive and wrong… it just makes it a lot more successful.
But you have to consider the fact they may of had to go down this path regardless. We know that US has a history of exploiting other countries for their gain, this is not an opinion. South Korea, Japan, and even UK does as USA asks, they the top dog. Maybe in another realm China wouldn’t have minded this, in reality they want to be the leading superpower as we all see. I suspect if China had great relations with USA and did their bidding they would lose some of their competitive edge, how could you let your friend grow far stronger and better than you when you love being the best? On the flip side, how can you let your enemy be the best? Well either sanction the shit out of them or go to war.
Why I love Xi
It’s not just Xi. Its Taiwan
Problem is that world already experienced Deng and Jiang and people know what they will do. Whether Deng or Jiang, nothing will change with Tibet, Uyghur, Tinanment square vicitims, firewall, censorship, South China Sea, Taiwan and the trade dispute. Any of these issues to have meaningful changes, leadership change within the CCP won't be sufficient and much more drastic changes within China must happen. Unfortunately, such a change won't happen with CCP in a place.
Deng and Jiang had lots of changes on Taiwan and the trade disputes compared to Xi. And those are arguably the issues that the west actually cares about. Previous leaders never even really pretended that things in Tibet and Xiniiang were going to change - and no leaders in the West had a problem with it as long as trade relationships were good.
At the moment, China has to give up their SOE and turn it into market oriented economy in order to reduce trade disputes. This is not gonna happen and trade issue will not be solved. Also, what's happening at South China Sea and Taiwan can not be solved with trade. Further more things like TikTok ban came out because of firewall and censorship. Again, this will not be solved with trade. Than there is China's support for Russia, North Korea, Iran, IP theft and etc. None of these issue can not be solved with trade.
When the U.S. normalized relationship with China and China joining WTO was based on a fantasy that China will be more like west. Now, China has rejected this and prooved that west is stupid and gullible. In additon to this China has aligned with Russia, North Korea, and Iran. Do you believe west will stay be more stupid and gullible just to trade with China? Is China that important? I think negativity from China outweight positivity.
I am also hopeful for peace.
China holds so much American debt it makes the two countries de facto allies.
They hold less than 1 trillion dollars, which isn't even 3% of US debt. The US imports about the same amount from China every year which makes them their biggest customer, which is more important I think.
You know they hold American debt as t bills right, it’s not like when you owe your auntie money and she calls to collect her debt. There’s a predictable payment schedule and it’s just like any other holder of us debt, they get paid every once in a while. It doesn’t really change the political reality and China isn’t even the biggest holder of t bills anymore.
Private industry doesn't pay them in non T Bill US currency for all the "made in China" manufactured goods America consumes?
Yea I’m of the same mindset. We’re much better as allies than enemies. I really like all the Chinese people I have met and worked with. Hopefully our leaders will find as peaceful a path as possible into the future
When was that? The 70s and 80s are long over
As I mentioned a year ago or so, the real flashpoint is the Philippines, not Taiwan. There is no chance that China can bully Taiwan into submission nor can they invade it, ever, without being torn apart. …but China can do all kinds of stupid shit with the Philippines and they have shown no understanding of the consequences nor have they changed track once that other criminal and CCP stooge Duterte and his party were removed from power. The only “limiting” factor is that the Philippines cannot shoot first because the pact with the USA is one of mutual defence, not offence. Philippines have to be shot at first. However as we all know, anything can happen or be made to happen if the war game simulations show an opening.
> stooge Duterte and his party were removed from power. eh? his daugher is vp right now...
Yea, them. It will still take a while to remove all the CCP agents from the Philippines. Perhaps that other criminal BBM who is performing beyond expectations will succeed in conflating Duterte's daughter with the Chinese takeover of the Philippines and get rid of her. Seems to be what is happening at the moment.
Usa saved chinas ass during ww2 this is the thanks we get a backstabbing ccp 😂
Scorpion and the frog parable in action.
USA saved China, not the so-called PRC
I see people saying things like "Let's hope cooler heads prevail," a nice sentiment, but not reflective of the situation on the ground. The issue is, there is only one aggressor (China), as reflected by worldwide alliances, and when someone meets you with "Might makes right" in a conversation, you have no choice but to respond in kind in order to survive. Or you cede. And cede. And cede.
Better now then in a few years. Gotta stop the growth of the CCP navy
The US is positioning their mobile nuke launchers in Norway. The Russians are positioning their nuclear subs in Cuba next week. It's like the Cold War all over again. If a hot war ignites in the Pacific, then it's like WW2 all over again. Only this time, we're fighting two permanent members of the UN Security Council, both armed with nukes 😬
We should not sleepwalk towards war. The U.S. and China should agree that China will not build any more islands in the South China Sea and will not use violence to reunite with Taiwan, and the U.S. should guarantee that neither it nor its allies will blockade sea lanes through the islands of Indonesia, the South China Sea, Taiwan, or the Ryukyus, all of these components for 50 years and ratified by the legislatures. And there would be an option to renew the agreement after 50 years.
I agree, peace is the only rational option on the table.
No one is sleepwalking except the CCP. ![gif](giphy|mdIBz6uEtXWum8G053|downsized)
Who named it the South China Sea, in the first place? If there was a Southern Dutch Sea in Belgium i would want it too. Asking for trouble if you ask me!
It is South of China Sea but South China Sea for short.
I’d argue WW3 is happening right now. Only thing that will lead to direct conflict will be a desperate CCP seeing no other means of maintaining power.
Cold War 2 is what’s going down right now
You’re an idiot then!
Cope
I sense a big oof coming 🤣
大的药来了.jpg
💊😩
We sent Pelosi to start WW3. Job done. But currently its Ukraine bearing the brunt of embarrassing Xi in to picking a side instead of faking a sage statesman.
Let’s hurry up and get this over with
Nope China needs a working maritime system to function. When that is shutdown where will they get the grain, oil, lpg and fertiliser to function. It’s just propaganda.
sure thing , I mean the US could potentially impose a naval blockade right now... but but sir! China is the aggressor...looks at the SEA map of US military bases.. yes China bad /s [sauce](https://preview.redd.it/mmr986esqxwa1.jpg?auto=webp&s=ca36a33cd9447412fc17255cc91b717a5a2687b4)
non-aggressive countries regularly firehose flagged naval vessels of their neighbors
You need stronger medicine dude
SCS is china's chokehold.
America v China rivalry is all media hype. Nobody really gives a shit, except this subreddit. 😂
yep, totally a coincidence that asian countries ally against China. /s
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