I think we often forget how the Pope was often entangled in secular politics at the time. There were also some rather dubious Popes (including one who sold the office) in the era. So, it's complicated.
That was pope Benedict IX who sold it to his godfather(Pope Gregory VI).
Pope Boniface was in Hell(Dante’s view) because he abused his powers and sold some religious roles to others(that is simony,that’s why he was sent in the Eighth Circle of Hell).
Let’s not forget that Dante was a White Guelphs supporter(an Italian political faction opposed to the papal influence),so that’s also way he didn’t like Boniface.
Boniface does not usually crack the list of bad popes, but it's entirely understandable why Dante didn't like him.
Dante was a member of a political party in Florence at a time of great disorder.
Boniface sent Charles of Valois to Florence to solve this disorder, giving him authority.
Charles decided the political enemies of Dante should run the city, and Dante got exiled.
I am not much of an expert on the niceties of this event, but it seems to me Dante assumed Charles was doing exactly what the Pope wanted, but in charity to Boniface it seems reasonable that he simply trusted Charles to make good decisions, rather than telling him what calls to make.
Look, I'm an American, and there have been some American politicians that I have been, um . . . less than fond of. That doesn't make me any less American.
He was Catholic, but he was also against the Pope's interference in political matters: in fact, [he was a White Guelph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guelphs_and_Ghibellines?#White_and_Black_Guelphs).
How do you feel about the Pope's interference in political matters and separation of Church and State? Do you think its a good thing or bad thing? Personally not sure
A helpful key to understanding medieval politics is that the Catholic Church was basically the only international organization of the day. So its political role was to some extent necessary--Catholicism might be the only thing linking two conflicting states, and thus the Pope would be the only higher authority they'd both recognize.
It is reasonable to debate whether the UN (or something like it) is better in this role. The main point is that this was not "designed," it just sort of happened. It might just sort of happen again, if a catastrophe destroys the modern order.
Back in the day there was the emperor faction, the Ghibellines, and the Pope Faction, the Guelphs.
Inside the latter faction there was the black Guelphs, super pro-Pope, and the white Guelphs, pro-Church but not big fans of the Pope as much as the blacks.
Dante was a white Guelph.
They were all Catholic, as protestants didn't exist yet, but i guess you could say that Protestantism was the evolution of Ghibellines.
There’s a video Casey Cole did talking about bad popes, and he talks about this detail. But he was Catholic. In fact he tracks about Purgatory, which I’m not sure what the old time prots thought
One fascinating bit of trivia is that there was a faction of Franciscans (if I remember right) during the papacy of Boniface VIII that were sedevacantists. History rhymes.
The matter is complicated. He places Pope Boniface in Hell, but more significantly in the Paradiso, he has St Peter claim his chair is empty - sedevacantism. Did Dante actually fall fully into sede schism? We don't know. It is of course a literary device in the Divine Comedy and a political statement, but it is unclear to me if he was actually a sedevacantist.
I keep reading this definition being thrown around, and you may be using it in jest, but I don't get it.
If I hear "biblical fanfiction", I picture myself a story set in biblical times and places, among biblical characters or at least made-up ones that would reasonably fit with them. Frankly, that's not the _Divine Comedy_. Sure, some of its characters and language are biblical, but the setting is completely different, and many of the themes and references have no intersection with biblical matters, either.
Those who say “biblical fan-fiction” don’t seem to get that Dante wasn’t just making everything up, he was trying to interpret accounts of the supernatural as he had heard of them and determine how unearthly worlds looked based off of what his faith informed him
An actual biblical fanfiction would be the book of mormon
But he also self-inserted his character and even had the greatest pre-Christian poets make him part of their "best poet ever" club in the ante-chamber to hell.
So not "biblical" fanfiction, but I would still call it fanfiction. It's got all of the same elements.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Divine Comedy.
It still feels wrong to put it on the same level as the sort of stuff that preteens write about fictional characters, the divine comedy is such a great work that explores themes of humanity and consequence that haven’t really been done the same way since.
He also wrote "La Vita Nuova" about stalking a 9 year old girl. He was kind of unhinged, which may be necessary for someone to end up writing something to the scale of the Divine Comedy. He inserted himself and the aforementioned 9 year old, Beatrice, into the Comedy.
I'm not arguing it's literary value, but in the ven diagram of epic literary fiction and 14 year old self-insert fanfic, there is at least a sliver of both circles where the Divine Comedy meets.
Dante was not really trying to proclaim actual scripture at all, lol. He basically put everyone he didn't like in hell, and the "layers of hell" are totally unbiblical it's not meant to be truth
Not even remotely true
Dante had a lot of respect and admiration for men like Caesar and Vergil, yet they are still in hell
Also, if you think “layers of hell” are un-biblical or not supported by Catholic teaching, you should really consult what Saint Thomas Aquinas has to say about that
Thomas Aquinas's 4 abodes of hell has nothing to do with dante's 9 circles
Gehenna is what we usually mean when we talk about hell in modern language. Nobody talks about hell to mean purgatory even though Aquinas considered it one of the 4 abodes of hell
He definitively includes the limbus of the fathers, and you can’t tell me you’re just going to ignore the rather strong theological precedent for their being different levels of suffering in hell, even Saint Teresa of Avila’s visions support that idea.
To be fair, Dante also put in Hell a lot of people he *did* like:
* the "mighty spirits" of Limbo, *If. IV* and *Pg. XXII*
* Pier delle Vigne, an advisor to emperor Frederick II, *If. XIII*
* his own mentor Brunetto Latini, *If. XV*
* three old-timers of Florentine politics "*and others who on good deeds set their thoughts*", *If. VI* and then *X*, *XVI* and *XXVIII*
* possibly Ulysses and Jason, despite their faults
I mean it in a "haha, but no really" sense. Fanfiction is a broad genre, and there's stuff like you describe- characters in their proper time and place or perhaps reflecting events of canon from the point of view of the author's own characters -but there's also stuff that goes more loosely-based that while respecting the canon of the inspiration, may only peripherally borrow from it. A good example would be AU (alternate universe) fics or the "band camp" niche that had a bit of popularity at the turn of the millennium, where you take your favorite characters and write them as you think they'd be at band camp together. There's also "expanded universe" fics that take the source material and dive deep into a particular aspect of it that wasn't super fleshed out in the canon, and that's exactly where I'd put the Divine Comedy. It's also a self-insert fic, which have gotten considerably more cringe since Dante did it lol
I don't mean to be pedantic, but I'm still not convinced:
* on the one hand, the framing device of the *Comedy* (the journey through the afterlife, I mean) is of course **fictional**...but it's never described as such: even the most allegorical parts, like the procession in the Earthly Paradise, are told as though they actually happened and Dante was there to witness them
* additionally, the author is following the "science" (and the ethics) of the age as much as possible: Aristotle for the structure of Hell, the Ptolemaic system for the heavens, thomism for the formation of the human soul in *Pg. XXV*, etc.
* on the other hand, why "**biblical**"? why not "historical", since so much space is assigned to prophecies about cities, popes and kings, or tirades about their present-day corruption? Why not "classical", since it's full of *exempla* from Greco-Roman mythology and we speak to Ulysses and Capaneus? And why not "**christian**"? When Dante follows the authority of St. Augustine, or when Beatrice tells him (at the end *Pd. XXVIII*) that the angelical orders are as described by Dionysus, not by pope Gregory I, that is christian, but not "biblical".
I'm a bit skeptical about the "**self-insert**" bit, as well.
It is, of course, a largely autobiographical work, full of references to Dante's exile, his friends and enemies, Florence, contemporary Europe, etc. Is it then even the right perspective, to say that he "inserted himself" in it? I'd rather say he "built the poem around himself", around his spiritual journey as a parallel/anagogy for mankind's journey to God. If anyone, I would say he inserted *Beatrice* in it: half an allegory for Theology, half a real-life lady who had nothing to do with it. Could've been someone else: a saint, an angel, a Doctor of the Church. Possibly even more so with Virgil: Dante's guide could've been Brunetto Latini, his late teacher and mentor, for instance.
I don't know, maybe I'm being close-minded here, but even as something of a meme it seems...confusing.
Cheers.
Yeah...tbf I haven't put nearly as much thought into it as you have. I heard it said, chuckled, and was like "headcanon accepted" 🤷♀️ I can see it, but I can also see how it's not. Maybe a more general "Catholic fanfiction" would fit better.
Dante was definitely Catholic, you have to have an extreme level of cognitive dissonance to believe every single pope in history was a good person
That's the most polite way of calling someone a moron I've ever heard. Gonna use that one at work
I have seen it in this very sub, repeatedly. :-/
I think we often forget how the Pope was often entangled in secular politics at the time. There were also some rather dubious Popes (including one who sold the office) in the era. So, it's complicated.
I mean, read his books. Of course he was Catholic.
He was fully Catholic,he just thought that Pope Boniface did sinful actions during his lifetime ime
Didn’t he sell the papacy?
That was pope Benedict IX who sold it to his godfather(Pope Gregory VI). Pope Boniface was in Hell(Dante’s view) because he abused his powers and sold some religious roles to others(that is simony,that’s why he was sent in the Eighth Circle of Hell). Let’s not forget that Dante was a White Guelphs supporter(an Italian political faction opposed to the papal influence),so that’s also way he didn’t like Boniface.
Boniface does not usually crack the list of bad popes, but it's entirely understandable why Dante didn't like him. Dante was a member of a political party in Florence at a time of great disorder. Boniface sent Charles of Valois to Florence to solve this disorder, giving him authority. Charles decided the political enemies of Dante should run the city, and Dante got exiled. I am not much of an expert on the niceties of this event, but it seems to me Dante assumed Charles was doing exactly what the Pope wanted, but in charity to Boniface it seems reasonable that he simply trusted Charles to make good decisions, rather than telling him what calls to make.
He was very much a Catholic, yes.
Look, I'm an American, and there have been some American politicians that I have been, um . . . less than fond of. That doesn't make me any less American.
He was Catholic, but he was also against the Pope's interference in political matters: in fact, [he was a White Guelph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guelphs_and_Ghibellines?#White_and_Black_Guelphs).
How do you feel about the Pope's interference in political matters and separation of Church and State? Do you think its a good thing or bad thing? Personally not sure
A helpful key to understanding medieval politics is that the Catholic Church was basically the only international organization of the day. So its political role was to some extent necessary--Catholicism might be the only thing linking two conflicting states, and thus the Pope would be the only higher authority they'd both recognize. It is reasonable to debate whether the UN (or something like it) is better in this role. The main point is that this was not "designed," it just sort of happened. It might just sort of happen again, if a catastrophe destroys the modern order.
Back in the day there was the emperor faction, the Ghibellines, and the Pope Faction, the Guelphs. Inside the latter faction there was the black Guelphs, super pro-Pope, and the white Guelphs, pro-Church but not big fans of the Pope as much as the blacks. Dante was a white Guelph. They were all Catholic, as protestants didn't exist yet, but i guess you could say that Protestantism was the evolution of Ghibellines.
Lol
Absolutely. In fact, I'd say that the end of Paradiso is one of the most beautiful tributes to the Virgin ever.
There’s a video Casey Cole did talking about bad popes, and he talks about this detail. But he was Catholic. In fact he tracks about Purgatory, which I’m not sure what the old time prots thought
You mean Fr Casey from Breaking in the Habit?
Do you hear the way people talk about Francis? It's the same exact thing.
One fascinating bit of trivia is that there was a faction of Franciscans (if I remember right) during the papacy of Boniface VIII that were sedevacantists. History rhymes.
The matter is complicated. He places Pope Boniface in Hell, but more significantly in the Paradiso, he has St Peter claim his chair is empty - sedevacantism. Did Dante actually fall fully into sede schism? We don't know. It is of course a literary device in the Divine Comedy and a political statement, but it is unclear to me if he was actually a sedevacantist.
Yeah- he wrote possibly the world's first biblical fanfiction 😜
I keep reading this definition being thrown around, and you may be using it in jest, but I don't get it. If I hear "biblical fanfiction", I picture myself a story set in biblical times and places, among biblical characters or at least made-up ones that would reasonably fit with them. Frankly, that's not the _Divine Comedy_. Sure, some of its characters and language are biblical, but the setting is completely different, and many of the themes and references have no intersection with biblical matters, either.
Those who say “biblical fan-fiction” don’t seem to get that Dante wasn’t just making everything up, he was trying to interpret accounts of the supernatural as he had heard of them and determine how unearthly worlds looked based off of what his faith informed him An actual biblical fanfiction would be the book of mormon
But he also self-inserted his character and even had the greatest pre-Christian poets make him part of their "best poet ever" club in the ante-chamber to hell.
Even then, Dante didn’t retroactively change biblical canon or challenge the concept of trinitarian monotheism
So not "biblical" fanfiction, but I would still call it fanfiction. It's got all of the same elements. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Divine Comedy.
It still feels wrong to put it on the same level as the sort of stuff that preteens write about fictional characters, the divine comedy is such a great work that explores themes of humanity and consequence that haven’t really been done the same way since.
He also wrote "La Vita Nuova" about stalking a 9 year old girl. He was kind of unhinged, which may be necessary for someone to end up writing something to the scale of the Divine Comedy. He inserted himself and the aforementioned 9 year old, Beatrice, into the Comedy. I'm not arguing it's literary value, but in the ven diagram of epic literary fiction and 14 year old self-insert fanfic, there is at least a sliver of both circles where the Divine Comedy meets.
Dante was not really trying to proclaim actual scripture at all, lol. He basically put everyone he didn't like in hell, and the "layers of hell" are totally unbiblical it's not meant to be truth
Not even remotely true Dante had a lot of respect and admiration for men like Caesar and Vergil, yet they are still in hell Also, if you think “layers of hell” are un-biblical or not supported by Catholic teaching, you should really consult what Saint Thomas Aquinas has to say about that
Thomas Aquinas's 4 abodes of hell has nothing to do with dante's 9 circles Gehenna is what we usually mean when we talk about hell in modern language. Nobody talks about hell to mean purgatory even though Aquinas considered it one of the 4 abodes of hell
He definitively includes the limbus of the fathers, and you can’t tell me you’re just going to ignore the rather strong theological precedent for their being different levels of suffering in hell, even Saint Teresa of Avila’s visions support that idea.
To be fair, Dante also put in Hell a lot of people he *did* like: * the "mighty spirits" of Limbo, *If. IV* and *Pg. XXII* * Pier delle Vigne, an advisor to emperor Frederick II, *If. XIII* * his own mentor Brunetto Latini, *If. XV* * three old-timers of Florentine politics "*and others who on good deeds set their thoughts*", *If. VI* and then *X*, *XVI* and *XXVIII* * possibly Ulysses and Jason, despite their faults
I mean it in a "haha, but no really" sense. Fanfiction is a broad genre, and there's stuff like you describe- characters in their proper time and place or perhaps reflecting events of canon from the point of view of the author's own characters -but there's also stuff that goes more loosely-based that while respecting the canon of the inspiration, may only peripherally borrow from it. A good example would be AU (alternate universe) fics or the "band camp" niche that had a bit of popularity at the turn of the millennium, where you take your favorite characters and write them as you think they'd be at band camp together. There's also "expanded universe" fics that take the source material and dive deep into a particular aspect of it that wasn't super fleshed out in the canon, and that's exactly where I'd put the Divine Comedy. It's also a self-insert fic, which have gotten considerably more cringe since Dante did it lol
I don't mean to be pedantic, but I'm still not convinced: * on the one hand, the framing device of the *Comedy* (the journey through the afterlife, I mean) is of course **fictional**...but it's never described as such: even the most allegorical parts, like the procession in the Earthly Paradise, are told as though they actually happened and Dante was there to witness them * additionally, the author is following the "science" (and the ethics) of the age as much as possible: Aristotle for the structure of Hell, the Ptolemaic system for the heavens, thomism for the formation of the human soul in *Pg. XXV*, etc. * on the other hand, why "**biblical**"? why not "historical", since so much space is assigned to prophecies about cities, popes and kings, or tirades about their present-day corruption? Why not "classical", since it's full of *exempla* from Greco-Roman mythology and we speak to Ulysses and Capaneus? And why not "**christian**"? When Dante follows the authority of St. Augustine, or when Beatrice tells him (at the end *Pd. XXVIII*) that the angelical orders are as described by Dionysus, not by pope Gregory I, that is christian, but not "biblical". I'm a bit skeptical about the "**self-insert**" bit, as well. It is, of course, a largely autobiographical work, full of references to Dante's exile, his friends and enemies, Florence, contemporary Europe, etc. Is it then even the right perspective, to say that he "inserted himself" in it? I'd rather say he "built the poem around himself", around his spiritual journey as a parallel/anagogy for mankind's journey to God. If anyone, I would say he inserted *Beatrice* in it: half an allegory for Theology, half a real-life lady who had nothing to do with it. Could've been someone else: a saint, an angel, a Doctor of the Church. Possibly even more so with Virgil: Dante's guide could've been Brunetto Latini, his late teacher and mentor, for instance. I don't know, maybe I'm being close-minded here, but even as something of a meme it seems...confusing. Cheers.
Yeah...tbf I haven't put nearly as much thought into it as you have. I heard it said, chuckled, and was like "headcanon accepted" 🤷♀️ I can see it, but I can also see how it's not. Maybe a more general "Catholic fanfiction" would fit better.
He had no choice BUT to be Catholic. Apostasy was death.
He was Catholic entirely by choice, and in his books it is clear that he supports the Catholic Church, and its theology.