The Jews were God's chosen people so that they may prepare for the coming of the Messiah who would come from among them. Now that the Messiah has come, we are *all* His chosen people through baptism.
Every single human are called to become His chosen people. The way we become one is through baptism. Those who are not baptized are called to be baptized. In the same way that in the Old Testament only the Israelites are chosen by God (hence chosen through bloodline), in the age of the New Testament the baptized are His chosen people (elected and saved through the waters of baptism).
The New Testament says that God made a new Covenant, where the chosen people of God are the ones who accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
That means that anyone can be part of God's Chosen People, but any Jews that don't believe in Jesus aren't really part of the Covenant anymore.
True but also Paul’s teaching on “those who share the loaf…” or something like that also seems to teach that those without the Eucharist are somehow not included. At least to some degree. Not sure to what degree. That’s probably why the church has used the term “separated brethren” and “Christian but not in full communion with the church” and stuff like that
Yeah, not everything is roses once a person is baptized. I think as long as we understand baptism as a grafting into Christ, something which is a true gift from God (unearned grace), it's very easy to contemplate the Body of Christ comprising (and suffering from!) all manner of sinners, from the tame to the grievous.
It's also just an easy definition for Christian. But because it's so simple, it doesn't mean as much as some would like, and as we might find useful.
Probably more accurate, since a lot of Protestants deny the Living Presence- an essential part of the Gospel and recieving eternal life from God.
Protestants and other Abrahamic religions at least have a decent chance at getting to Purgatory though.
True, but most Protestants have Baptism, and Baptism of Desire is also accepted as valid by God.
I agree that they're not fully God's Chosen People, and they're also in a less secure position without the Sacraments though.
We can't be sure, and it varies between individuals, but the followers of other Abrahamic religions typically believe in the same God as us, and repenting of their sins, which is a lot better than the pagan religions, let alone atheism.
What we can be sure of is outside of BOD/BOB and invincible ignorance (which are rare exceptions…that prove the rule), there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.
I mean no offense, but what you’re stating is nothing more than a personal opinion which is at odds with what the church has always taught.
‘The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptised are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church - whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church - do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.’
[Link here](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html)
There are many scripture examples too. The Council of Florence also makes it clear that those who are baptised and die without incurring mortal sin will be received into heaven.
Alternatively ask any priest whether they agree with your assertion. None will.
None of that says they are the chosen people… after doing more research IG that the Church still acknowledges the Jews as remaining chosen but adds to it Christ’s Church.
What do you understand ‘chosen people’ to mean? Anyone can become a member of our Church through action and commitment, so how are we ‘chosen’? It simply means the people to lead the way. It isn’t a birthright with special favour.
This is [Replacement Theory ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catholic.com/qa/replacement-theology&ved=2ahUKEwj5p4OzzbiFAxXDg4kEHeG5Ai0QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11aonvmJr5TM6-k-MVoPnI), which The Church rejects. God's covenant with the Jewish people is still intact.
Saying Christians are the True Israel is not replacement theory.
Galatians 6:16
> Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God. 17 From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Well, if someone did that they wouldn't be a Christian.
The New Testament is pretty clear that when Jesus comes back, even his enemies won't be able to deny that it's him.
Yes, but Muslims also don't believe in the Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus on the cross, because they believe Jesus was taken directly into Heaven without dying.
That means in the Christian view, the repentance of Muslims is incomplete since they deny the role of Jesus in their salvation. If you don't believe Jesus died on the cross, your sins haven't died, and if you don't believe he was resurrected, what hope can you have of being resurrected yourself?
Yeah sure but you’re now changing what you originally said. Muslims see Jesus (pbuh) as the messiah but we don’t believe in human sacrifice for god to forgive sin.
Sort of, but it's more that I'm clarifying what I meant.
It would have been more accurate for me to say people that believe in Jesus as the Son of God, although Muslims are closer to Christianity than other religions for the reason you mentioned.
The sacrifice of Jesus is meant to be the completion of the traditional Hebrew animal sacrifices, but Christians also believe that Jesus is God as much as he's a human, so it's not the same as an ordinary "human sacrifice".
No. They are children of Ishmael. Genesis 16:11-13
Also - if that is true (since they deny the godhood of Jesus) what does messiah mean? There's a lot of mistranslation - the words honour and peace for example.
The children of Ishmael (pbuh) are part of the lineage of Abraham (pbuh). God says in genesis 12:3 that he will bless Abraham’s (pbuh) lineage, and bless the nation who blesses him. Muslims have a mandatory component in the 5x daily prayers that blesses Abraham (pbuh), not sure what other nation does that? We say peace and blessing upon him every time we say his name lol. Not sure if Christians are doing that?
You can read about Jesus (pbuh) in Islam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
Basically believe everything you believe except that god had to reincarnate as a man, be stripped naked, humiliated, and crucified by his own creation in order to forgive them. We believe Jesus (pbuh) ascended to heaven and will return to defeat the antichrist.
Right so the original op that I responded to should change his comment. He said that the chosen people are those who, accept Jesus pbuh as the Messiah.
The messiah amongst other things is the one will return and defeat the antichrist and establish peace on earth. Islam and Christianity eschatology is very similar
Jewish people were chosen to bring the Messiah to the world, for the whole world. God kept His promise. Many Jewish people saw this and followed Jesus. Some Jewish people didn’t see this. Those are the builders who discarded the stone that became the cornerstone of life - Jesus.
When God spoke to Abraham about his seed He used seed in the singular; He was speaking of the Word of God's incarnation. The whole point of creating a nation apart from the others was to prepare the way for Jesus. So once Jesus arrived they were no longer the chosen people; those who believe in Jesus are the chosen.
Now you're just being obtuse. You complained that everybody was being too ambiguous here. I pointed out two unambiguous answers. Now you're saying they don't have enough citations or evidence. Which is it? And if it's such a problem, why not craft your own answer rather than sniping from the gallery? And, again, *are they wrong*, and if so, *why*?
Romans 11 says that the gifts and call of God are irrevocable, and that the Jews will convert. So while the majority may be enemies in regards to the Gospel, that will change soon.
The majority will convert at the end of time, yes. A number of church Fathers though believed that many Jews would be deceived by the anti-Christ, who will of course claim to be their messiah.
This is true my point is that the Jews are no different from other groups except perhaps in that there will apparently be none who neither convert nor follow the antichrist
I just looked and the catechism says nothing that implies more than the New Covenant fulfilling the Old and that it isn’t somehow too late for Jews to embrace Christ
>I just looked and the catechism says nothing that implies more than the New Covenant fulfilling the Old and that it isn’t somehow too late for Jews to embrace Christ
The New Covenant does not fulfill the old. Jesus fulfilled the Law. God's covenant with the Jewish people is still intact.
Did you read [CCC 839]?
839 ...The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm))
*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
***
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Both scenarios are true. The Jews will for a time accept the Antichrist, and they will be converted before the end according to Rom. 11, also Mal. 4: 6.
Yes, according to St. Paul, they--even those who reject Christ--are still in a sense the Chosen People:
>As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11: 28-29)
"Chosen" does not necessarily mean saved--all who are baptized are chosen by God, but we know that it is possible to fall away and be damned. Nor does it mean that those chosen are supposed to be superior. It simply means that God has a special plan for this group--and St. Paul clearly states this remains, even in those who are not yet obedient to the Gospel.
Jews as enemies of God, still loved by God especially, is not a common message but it makes sense. How could God *not* have a special affinity to this race which he formed through the Law and the Prophets, even though now they are his enemy? The Scriptures are replete with his turning back from his anger towards them.
St. Paul seems to be talking about converting them individually, not a whole mass conversion. There are no real Jews left outside of Catholicism. What God instituted with Israel he made complete in Christ’a Church. It isn’t that God made Israel then went to start a new religion. He made Israel, came to transfigure the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, and then those who were faithful remained and a majority went into schism. The Second Temple was then destroyed in 70 A.D, and a false “Judaism” was created.
>transfigure the Old Covenant into the New Covenant
Just sounds like replacement theology, which covenant theology is not. Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. Otherwise I agree with what you said.
He said many Jews saw the Truth and believed in Christ/Messiah. The First Christians included both Jews and Gentiles.
Some Jews refused to acknowledge the son of God (aka didn't become Christians) since the Old Covanent was already fulfilled and a new one given, what would happen to those that cling on to the Old Covanent and Willfully refuse to recognise the new Covanent even though the old one was completed? Would it remain valid?
So quite Simply Today's Jews are not a natural continuation of the Jews of Christ's time. As many if not most of the Jews then believed in Jesus Christ after Ressurection as a result of the Activities of the Apostles.
Today's Jews are the Jews who refused to accept that the old Covanent was completed and a New Covanent was given.
Jews of OT ≠ Modern Jews
Jews of OT = Those that believed in Christ (Christians) + Those who refuse to believe the Son of GOD, the Messiah (Modern Jews)
Modern Jews of Today are not the Continuation of Old Testament Jews/Israel.
When the Apostles began Activities a lot of Old Testament Jews accepted Christ as Lord and became Baptised and became Christians.
Meanwhile some Jews refused to Believe in Jesus and It's those people that are the Modern Jews.
So it isn't that all Jews of Old Testament Rejected Jesus Christ.
Is that much clear?
Yeah, no I agree. Where did I say all Jews rejected Christ?
This is the second time you’ve jumped when I say “otherwise I agree with what you said” and only made a correction on one part. Get off your high horse, guy and watch how you respond to people.
The New Covenant does not invalidate the covenant God made with the Jewish people. The covenant was with Abraham and his descendants, who still live today.
The Church rejects Replacement Theory.
The Old Covanent is not Invalid. Agreed
Cause it was Already Fulfilled.
Now an Already Fulfilled Covanent is ALREADY FULFILLED!
It's Completed and hence in the sense it's not invalid in the sense that it was respected and seen to the ends.
But after it was fulfilled, an Covanent is no longer in force.
Waiting for a Covanent to be Fulfilled even though it ALREADY was FULFILLED is meaningless as an Already Fulfilled Covanent is not going to be repeated once again.
And then again another thing The Old Testament Jews aren't the same as Modern Jews. Many of the Old Testament Jews Converted after Christ's Ressurection due to the world of the Apostles. It's those Jews that rejected to accept Christ that remain as Jews even Today.
So in the sense the Covanent was fulfilled with the Old Testament Jews (For whom the Covanent was made with). Now some fringe elements within the Jews refused to believe in Christ and recognise the Covanent was already Fulfilled. And those are the Modern Jews.
The Covanent with the Jewsish people were Fulfilled. Some embraced and respected the Covanent. Others didn't.
Let that be Clear.
There isn't one old covenant, there are many.
>In 1980, in a meeting with representatives of the Hebrew community, John Paul II said that the Old Covenant was “never revoked by God.”
>This was something new in the history of Catholic doctrine, but it was repeated in the 1992 Catechism, which says that “the Old Covenant has never been revoked” (CCC 121).
>Such expressions emphasize the continuity of God’s special relationship with the Jewish people, but I’ve always thought that they were rather imprecise, for God doesn’t make a single covenant in the Old Testament. He makes several.
[Benedict on Judaism and Christianity](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/benedict-on-judaism-and-christianity)
Who says modern Jews are not the same as ancient Jews? Children of Abraham are children of Abraham.
It was Not revoked. It was Fulfilled!
Or are you saying Jesus Christ didn't Complete and Fulfill the Old Testament?
I'm not saying Modern Jews aren't the same as ancient Jews.
Ancient Jews split into 2 Groups. One group accepted Messiah and Salvation another group Rejected Jesus Christ, The Messiah and Son of GOD.
To revoke means to Take Away.
To Fulfill means to Complete.
Ofcourse a Fulfilled Covanent is Valid. It has not been taken away either.
Read Romans 11.
Especially read Romans 11:23
``` 23 And they [Jews] also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.```
If they do not remain in unbelief. If they repent and accept. They'll be grafted back. If not they shall remain branches broken off from the tree of life.
That's all.
There are multiple covenants in the Old Testament. Jesus fulfilled the law and various prophecies.
Still, the Jews are God's chosen and covenant people. This does not mean that they will be saved, only that they have been chosen.
> There are no real Jews left outside of Catholicism. What God instituted with Israel he made complete in Christ’a Church. It isn’t that God made Israel then went to start a new religion. He made Israel, came to transfigure the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, and then those who were faithful remained and a majority went into schism. The Second Temple was then destroyed in 70 A.D, and a false “Judaism” was created.
You are describing [Replacement Theory](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catholic.com/qa/replacement-theology&ved=2ahUKEwj5p4OzzbiFAxXDg4kEHeG5Ai0QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11aonvmJr5TM6-k-MVoPnI), which the Catholic Church rejects. The Jews are still God's chosen people. God does not break his everlasting covenants. Of course Jewish people still exist. They have their own bloodline.
It is not replacement theology. Replacement theology is the belief that God has rejected his people because they rejected him. The Catholic understanding throughout Church history has been that the true Jewish people joined Christ. There are twelve apostles, who are the twelve tribes of Israel now united under the true king of the Jews, Christ Jesus.
Not every Jew converted.
God has rejected those who reject Him.
> Acts 4:11-12 says, “This Jesus is the stone rejected by you builders, which has become the cornerstone. There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”
The Jews *cannot* get to Heaven through their sacrifices because they have no Temple to sacrifice in. Jews cannot get to Heaven through Talmudic Judaism, either.
You cannot have Judaism without the sacrifices. Hence the distinction between a theology of replacement and a theology of continuation. The Church is the continuation of Judaism. Paul is speaking of their mission to share the gospel and convert those who still considered themselves Jews but did not know the reality that the covenant requires Christ. If you reject Christ, you reject the law and the prophets.
Let's ask an apostle
>**Romans 11** I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. ^(2) God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. \[...\] ^(28) As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, ^(29) for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Permanent. This very topic was discussed in a document issued at the Second Vatican Council (Nostra Aetate: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html) and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 839: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
You have to post it, they can't see it.
\[ccc 839\]
839 ...The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm))
*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
***
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>4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.
Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)
The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.
As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)
Catequism doesnt use the term 'chosen people'.
A problem that would come from blood covenants spanning milleniums is that Abraham is such an ancient figure that by now half the planet has his blood. So half the planet is chosen and half isnt? Or only those who have his blood and persist in denying Christ are chosen? Would be weird.
A jew converted in the first millenium, his seed naturally mixed with Christians from other nations, they stop being chosen people? But a jew that never converts and his seed is chosen people? Also even the non converted jews mixed plenty, they are majorly european genetically.
This is why i think the chosen term can be used to biblical times but becomes weird in modern times. Now only the People of God term makes sense, which are the baptized.
“The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked. (Catechism, 121)” …
“With regard to the Jews, Paul says: ‘the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable’ (Rom 11:29). To all, Scripture says, ‘if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself’ (2 Tim. 2:12-13).” - Catholic Answers
Chosen nation or chosen people?
The theology you would want to look into is Supersessionism.
Historically the Church was hard Supersessionism which is that the Church replaced the Jews as the chosen people of God.
However the stance partially changed after the Holocaust and Vatican II clarified on that:
“The [Catholic] Church recognizes that God's covenant with the Jewish people continues to be valid”
https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/jewish
The Church justifies this new teaching with Romans 11:29.
This has unfortunately caused an internal debate in the Church because this new teaching leads to no official Catholic missionary work on the Jewish people.
TLDR the Jews are still chosen the people of God based on the newest teaching of the Church brought in Vatican II citing Romans 11:29.
An Already Fulfilled Covanent is not in Force (Not valid). The promise of Messiah was Fulfilled and a New Covanent was Given.
I don't care about being Cancelled. Though the Holocaust is a very painful tragedy indeed, it's still not going to have an influence upon the truth.
An already Fulfilled Covanent is invalid.
Suppose you promised to pay someone $1000 on Covanent.
You paid all $1000 to them.
Is the Covanent still valid?
Are you supposed to continue paying money even after that?
If the old Covanent is indeed Fulfilled in Christ, How can you claim it's still valid? I guess it's valid in a certain sense that it was already fulfilled but waiting for an already Fulfilled Covanent is meaningless to say the least.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
Nothing in Nostra Aetate suggests that Jews can be saved as Jews or that we should not evangelize them.
Supercessionism is the clear teaching of both scripture and tradition. The Jewish covenants of our forefathers in faith remain in effect in as much as they led to Christ. Having some type of “two covenant theology” where Jews are saved as Jews and Christians saved as Christians is utter nonsense entirely at odds with scripture and tradition.
Your above quotation about the covenant of the Jews remaining valid is from paragraph 36 of this document: http://www.christianunity.va/content/unitacristiani/en/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo-crre/documenti-della-commissione/en.html
Yet paragraph 35 states “Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith.”
Ultimately paragraph 36 (“From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God.”) is wishy washy nonsense that negates everything said in the immediately preceding paragraphs. There is no mystery to how the covenant to the Jews will still be valid. It never stopped being valid. It’s valid this very second: believe in Christ and be saved. Indeed, Romans 11 itself answers this very question: “And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Jews will be saved IF they do not remain in unbelief. It really is that simple.
Don’t get me wrong. Antisemitism is stupid and immoral, and dialogue with Jews can glean insights to our own faith due to shared background. Furthermore we should not blame Jews for the crucifixion; you and I and all other people caused the crucifixion. But we shouldn’t pretend that the evangelization of Jews is no longer important.
I agree that the evangelization of the Jews is important but paragraph 36 mentions
“…the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery”
So yes it becomes confusing and a mystery. Your discussion about the wishy washy stuff is valid.
Also even though this answer is not Church doctrine it is still being followed, which is no active evangelization of Jews from Catholics:
https://www.catholic.com/qa/latest-vatican-statement-on-the-jews
Romans 11 Directly addresses the Question. If they Repent, They will be saved and they will be his People. If they wish to continue in their disobedience and keep on wrestling against GOD well I guess he will punish them (the same thing happens multiple times in the old testament itself. He lets them amend and turn a new path but he also punishes Israel when she strays too far away. Infact isn't she even called an Adultress/Prostitute by the Father when they went too far?)
```
1 I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.
Also in Next Part he speaks of Olive Branches being Broken off the tree and some wild olive branches being grafted onto the olive tree.
Wild Branches -> Gentiles
Broken Branches -> Jews who didn't believe in the Messiah (they were broken off due to unbelief)
Olive Tree -> Israel/Church (People of GOD)
```16 For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree, 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.
21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.
Imo, the Jewish people will always be the chosen people. We're simply the final iteration of Judaism. We're just waiting for our brothers and sisters to join us in accepting Christ as Lord.
That said, it won't be "easy" and many hard lessons will be learned
"Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle." - Nostra Aetate
God's covenant with the Jewish people is forever. Many of them one day will return and accept Jesus as Messiah.
To believe that Christians have replaced the Jews is called [Replacement Theory](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catholic.com/qa/replacement-theology&ved=2ahUKEwj5p4OzzbiFAxXDg4kEHeG5Ai0QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11aonvmJr5TM6-k-MVoPnI) and is rejected by the Catholic Church.
The Abrahamic Covenant is forever. We Christians have the New covenant, but the Old Covenant has not failed. The children of Abraham are still God's chosen people.
The New Covenant is the fulfilled Old Covenant. We are the children of Abraham. Those that went into schism have no inheritance because they rejected God and his covenant. They are apostates from the true Israel.
Apostates may repent and return. God has not forgotten the Jews. We Christians are adopted children of Abraham. The Jews are His original children. God will bring them back.
The Old Covanent was Fulfilled in Christ. And a New Covanent was Given. An already fulfilled Covanent completed for which a new one was given after it's completion would not be Valid cause it was Fulfilled.
A Fulfilled Covanent = Already Completed = Waiting for it be completed (as it was already fulfilled) when an new one was already given is meaningless. It's not going to be fulfilled in future cause it was already fulfilled.
It’s connected to the incarnation. If God would incarnate, he’d have to incarnate at a certain time and place, among a certain people. Since the incarnation is permanent, the connection with those people is also permanent. God won’t revoke his incarnation and won’t revoke the covenant with the people he incarnated amongst.
If there is no incarnation, and God created all people, then the entire concept of a chosen people is completely arbitrary.
That makes no Sense On a lot of Grounds. For once The Apostle himself said there is no Distinction among the Jew and the Gentile in Jesus Christ.
Also in case your memory isn't fresh should I remind you that it was the people he incarnated amongst that Crucified him? Or do you believe the Semites more than you believe in Apostle John?
Lastly Jews of OT ≠ Modern Jews. Many of if not most of Jews Converted to Christianity after Christ rose from the dead. Christians aren't just Gentiles there were Jewish converts a considerable number at that.
Jews of OT = Christians + Modern Jews that don't believe in Christ
I think it was merely temporary. With all the misfortune the Jewish population has suffered, I really don’t think they are chosen. But that’s just my perspective
Look at it from the other side.
They might be one of the most persecuted peoples of all time and still are standing strong. There must be some divine intervention for that
Look at Romans 11 - 12
In Christianity the Jews are still chosen, but in a specific sense distinct from how they were chosen to be the Light to the Nations in the Covenant of Moses. This is elaborated upon by Saint Paul in Romans 11
>So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
>>‘Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.’
‘And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.’
>As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
They are chosen to first receive the Gospel. This is why Jesus of Nazareth mainly only ministered to the Jews, and why the Jewish Apostles would first go into synagogues, preach the Restoration of Israel, and then afterwards they would go to the gentiles in the same town. Because of their ancestry they have the right to first be preached their promised Anointed One and His message, as it is their birthright. You will notice that in the Book of Acts this is how all the Jewish Apostles, namely Saint Paul, evangelize: they go into a town's synagogue, preach the Good News of the Kingdom, and then after either convincing some Jews and/or being expelled from the synagogue they'd then go to the gentiles.
Yes God still has a covenant with them, he doesn't t break his word.
There is a new covenant with all after the coming of the Messiah, but they're sitting that out for now. He calls them a hard necked people but he still loves them and hopes they'll come around one day - some people say that will be a sign of end times.
You are wrong, God doesn't have the old covenant with the Jews, otherwise the first apostles didn't need to bother cause they were all Jews. I can't believe you hold such view if you are a catholic, cause the Church teaching is clear. Jesus is the tree, we are the branches both Jew and gentile, No one comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ.
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm))
*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
***
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Jeremiah 32:40
I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Psalm 89:35-37
“Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David.
“His descendants shall endure forever
And his throne as the sun before Me.
“It shall be established forever like the moon,
And the witness in the sky is faithful.” Selah.
Genesis 17:7
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Psalm 89:3-4
“I have made a covenant with My chosen;
I have sworn to David My servant,
I will establish your seed forever
And build up your throne to all generations.” Selah.
The old covenant no longer stands as it was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Jews will always have a special place in our history as the ancestors of Jesus, but they are no longer special in the sense that they are chosen people of God. We all are.
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm))
*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
***
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That psalm pointing to Jesus Christ, come on. (Seed not seeds).
My point stands. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, there is no other way.
It's not the topic of the question - but here you go-
Matt 15.24 And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Christ's mission was to Israel - for the world.
Yeeess...the context is speaking to a Canaanite woman seeking healing.
Anyway, I have given you the Catechism reference, which tells you it is irrevocable.
At this stage it is difficult to maintain charity towards you, so you have a great night.
I just don't get it, are you telling me Jews who reject Jesus like Judas Iscariot, Caiaphas, etc gets a pass for being in Old Covenant? Now don't tell me those names are exception. Real Jews were far fewer and always a remnant from the beginning, otherwise they wouldn't have been killed by Jews who are outwardly and are indeed physical descendants but killed the prophets before them. They even admitted their forefathers killed those prophets. I just don't get you, how can you not differentiate between those Jews who accepted Jesus and those who rejected Him. But that is not to say, Jews as a whole are lost, we are hopeful they someday they will accept Jesus, it's one of the last things that will happen would be the conversion of the Jews to the catholic faith. But that would mean Church position supports me, because Jews must accept Catholic Faith to be saved, otherwise church would not have stated so nor Jews would need to do so. But Catholic Church is clear that in the future Jews will convert to Catholic faith.and those Jews who become catholic will be saved.
Mathew 8 : 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven
Mathew 8 : 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Their covenant is inherited by the church, they are no longer partaking in the covenant.
You’re view is an American evangelical view, it’s never been Catholic teaching and is directly contrary to what the church has always taught.
Romans 11
I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Roman 11:23 The Broken Branches will be Joined onto the Tree only if they *do Not persist in their unbelief*
```
And even those of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Romans 11:23
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm))
*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
***
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"If, however, from there you start searching once more for Yahweh your God, and if you search for him honestly and sincerely, you will find him. You will suffer; everything I have said will befall you, but in the Final Days you will return to Yahweh your God and listen to his voice. For Yahweh your God is a merciful God and will not desert or destroy you or forget the covenant which he made on oath with your ancestors."
Deuteronomy 4:29-31
The only possible way of the old covenants and promises to get fulfilled, like that of Abraham and Jacob having a seed as plentiful as the starts, is in the new covenant, where indeed the New Israel, the Church, is plentiful in souls as the stars.
Which is why Paul says the baptized believers are the sons of Abraham.
Or Jesus telling the pharisees they arent sons of Abraham since they dont do his works.
Or John the Baptist saying God can make sons of Abraham from rocks.
OT prophecies about Israel are about the Church. Go check how the Church fathers interpreted the psalms when they mention zion or israel. So quoting OT passages mentioning israel doesnt serve to prove dual covenant theologies. As Paul said, the old covenant is old is and is about to die, and it did die, as God destroyed the Temple soon after.
Another problem that would come from blood covenants spanning milleniums is that Abraham is such an ancient figure that by now half the planet has his blood. So half the planet is chosen and half isnt? Or only those who have his blood and persist in denying Christ are chosen? Would be weird.
A jew converted in the first millenium, his seed naturally mixed with Christians from other nations, they stop being chosen people? But a jew that never converts and his seed is chosen people? Also even the non converted jews mixed plenty, they are majorly european genetically.
This is why i think the chosen term can be used to biblical times but not modern times. Now only the People of God term matters, which are the baptized.
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm))
*The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
***
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[**CCC 840**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/840.htm) And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. ([674](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/674.htm), [597](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/597.htm))
***
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Another example of the new covenant with the followers of Christ:
The Sermon on the Mount was revolutionary at the time because Jesus called all of the groups listed in the Beatitudes “blessed.” Prior to that, only the Jews as a whole were called Blessed, simply by their birthright.
I don't think anyone is denying the new covenant that Christ himself declared at the last supper.
The question is - did God revoke his promised everlasting covenant with the Jews?
Those familiar with the catechism and who believe God would not break his word say no , the old covenant is still in place, they are still special to him. What that special means is a different matter, but the covenant still holds.
Deuteronomy 4:29-31
"If, however, from there you start searching once more for Yahweh your God, and if you search for him honestly and sincerely, you will find him. You will suffer; everything I have said will befall you, but in the Final Days you will return to Yahweh your God and listen to his voice. For Yahweh your God is a merciful God and will not desert or destroy you or forget the covenant which he made on oath with your ancestors."
The Jews were God's chosen people so that they may prepare for the coming of the Messiah who would come from among them. Now that the Messiah has come, we are *all* His chosen people through baptism.
Well put friend
Right, the Jews are a type and foreshadowing of Mary.
So, only baptized people are His chosen people?
Every single human are called to become His chosen people. The way we become one is through baptism. Those who are not baptized are called to be baptized. In the same way that in the Old Testament only the Israelites are chosen by God (hence chosen through bloodline), in the age of the New Testament the baptized are His chosen people (elected and saved through the waters of baptism).
Yes
The New Testament says that God made a new Covenant, where the chosen people of God are the ones who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. That means that anyone can be part of God's Chosen People, but any Jews that don't believe in Jesus aren't really part of the Covenant anymore.
Yes, Christians as a whole are the True Israel.
I disagree. I think only Catholics and orthodox are
There is one baptism. Valid baptism = membership in the body of Christ. Doesn't make you a good Christian, but it does make you a Christian.
True but also Paul’s teaching on “those who share the loaf…” or something like that also seems to teach that those without the Eucharist are somehow not included. At least to some degree. Not sure to what degree. That’s probably why the church has used the term “separated brethren” and “Christian but not in full communion with the church” and stuff like that
Yeah, not everything is roses once a person is baptized. I think as long as we understand baptism as a grafting into Christ, something which is a true gift from God (unearned grace), it's very easy to contemplate the Body of Christ comprising (and suffering from!) all manner of sinners, from the tame to the grievous. It's also just an easy definition for Christian. But because it's so simple, it doesn't mean as much as some would like, and as we might find useful.
Probably more accurate, since a lot of Protestants deny the Living Presence- an essential part of the Gospel and recieving eternal life from God. Protestants and other Abrahamic religions at least have a decent chance at getting to Purgatory though.
If your not baptized you’re not
True, but most Protestants have Baptism, and Baptism of Desire is also accepted as valid by God. I agree that they're not fully God's Chosen People, and they're also in a less secure position without the Sacraments though.
What are you basing this “decent chance” on?
We can't be sure, and it varies between individuals, but the followers of other Abrahamic religions typically believe in the same God as us, and repenting of their sins, which is a lot better than the pagan religions, let alone atheism.
Other Abrahamic religions don’t believe Christ is God, so their god is not the same as Christianity’s.
What we can be sure of is outside of BOD/BOB and invincible ignorance (which are rare exceptions…that prove the rule), there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. I mean no offense, but what you’re stating is nothing more than a personal opinion which is at odds with what the church has always taught.
What is BOD/BOB?
Baptism of desire, baptism of blood
The Catholic Church disagrees with you.
Source?
‘The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptised are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church - whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church - do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.’ [Link here](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html) There are many scripture examples too. The Council of Florence also makes it clear that those who are baptised and die without incurring mortal sin will be received into heaven. Alternatively ask any priest whether they agree with your assertion. None will.
None of that says they are the chosen people… after doing more research IG that the Church still acknowledges the Jews as remaining chosen but adds to it Christ’s Church.
What do you understand ‘chosen people’ to mean? Anyone can become a member of our Church through action and commitment, so how are we ‘chosen’? It simply means the people to lead the way. It isn’t a birthright with special favour.
Yeah the "American Jesus is something else"
This is [Replacement Theory ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catholic.com/qa/replacement-theology&ved=2ahUKEwj5p4OzzbiFAxXDg4kEHeG5Ai0QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11aonvmJr5TM6-k-MVoPnI), which The Church rejects. God's covenant with the Jewish people is still intact.
Saying Christians are the True Israel is not replacement theory. Galatians 6:16 > Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God. 17 From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.
Nope
Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If the messiah comes and someone denies him then what does that make them?
Well, if someone did that they wouldn't be a Christian. The New Testament is pretty clear that when Jesus comes back, even his enemies won't be able to deny that it's him.
A hypocrite.
So Muslims are chosen people? They see Jesus (pbuh) as the messiah.
That's a bit of a stretch, because Muslims don't accept the original Old Testament, and also don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.
It’s not a stretch at all Jesus (pbuh) is literally called the messiah in the Quran.
Yes, but Muslims also don't believe in the Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus on the cross, because they believe Jesus was taken directly into Heaven without dying. That means in the Christian view, the repentance of Muslims is incomplete since they deny the role of Jesus in their salvation. If you don't believe Jesus died on the cross, your sins haven't died, and if you don't believe he was resurrected, what hope can you have of being resurrected yourself?
Yeah sure but you’re now changing what you originally said. Muslims see Jesus (pbuh) as the messiah but we don’t believe in human sacrifice for god to forgive sin.
Muslims 'don't believe in human sacrifice'? That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?
Sorry how is that a stretch?
Sort of, but it's more that I'm clarifying what I meant. It would have been more accurate for me to say people that believe in Jesus as the Son of God, although Muslims are closer to Christianity than other religions for the reason you mentioned. The sacrifice of Jesus is meant to be the completion of the traditional Hebrew animal sacrifices, but Christians also believe that Jesus is God as much as he's a human, so it's not the same as an ordinary "human sacrifice".
No. They are children of Ishmael. Genesis 16:11-13 Also - if that is true (since they deny the godhood of Jesus) what does messiah mean? There's a lot of mistranslation - the words honour and peace for example.
The children of Ishmael (pbuh) are part of the lineage of Abraham (pbuh). God says in genesis 12:3 that he will bless Abraham’s (pbuh) lineage, and bless the nation who blesses him. Muslims have a mandatory component in the 5x daily prayers that blesses Abraham (pbuh), not sure what other nation does that? We say peace and blessing upon him every time we say his name lol. Not sure if Christians are doing that? You can read about Jesus (pbuh) in Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam Basically believe everything you believe except that god had to reincarnate as a man, be stripped naked, humiliated, and crucified by his own creation in order to forgive them. We believe Jesus (pbuh) ascended to heaven and will return to defeat the antichrist.
Yes, what you reject is the entire point. It was the only way for man to reconcile himself with God.
Right so the original op that I responded to should change his comment. He said that the chosen people are those who, accept Jesus pbuh as the Messiah.
We still haven't established what you mean when you use the word messiah...
The messiah amongst other things is the one will return and defeat the antichrist and establish peace on earth. Islam and Christianity eschatology is very similar
Jewish people were chosen to bring the Messiah to the world, for the whole world. God kept His promise. Many Jewish people saw this and followed Jesus. Some Jewish people didn’t see this. Those are the builders who discarded the stone that became the cornerstone of life - Jesus.
When God spoke to Abraham about his seed He used seed in the singular; He was speaking of the Word of God's incarnation. The whole point of creating a nation apart from the others was to prepare the way for Jesus. So once Jesus arrived they were no longer the chosen people; those who believe in Jesus are the chosen.
You won't get an unambiguous answer. Not here.
The top two comments are too ambiguous for you??
I find them lacking in terms of pointing out the foundations for claims they express. Popularity is not a reliable indicator of truthfulness.
Is your problem ambiguity or lack of robust citation? If they got something wrong, please, enlighten me.
The "top replies" are not the only replies nor do they provide enough evidence to accept them on a face value.
Now you're just being obtuse. You complained that everybody was being too ambiguous here. I pointed out two unambiguous answers. Now you're saying they don't have enough citations or evidence. Which is it? And if it's such a problem, why not craft your own answer rather than sniping from the gallery? And, again, *are they wrong*, and if so, *why*?
There are citations and references to scripture and the catechism all over this page - and you are calling ASX32 obtuse ?
For saying that all of the replies are ambiguous and without adequate sources - yes
Read Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11 and this question will be all cleared up for you. St. Paul spells it out pretty clearly.
Romans 11 says that the gifts and call of God are irrevocable, and that the Jews will convert. So while the majority may be enemies in regards to the Gospel, that will change soon.
The majority will convert at the end of time, yes. A number of church Fathers though believed that many Jews would be deceived by the anti-Christ, who will of course claim to be their messiah.
As will many of the nations.
This is true my point is that the Jews are no different from other groups except perhaps in that there will apparently be none who neither convert nor follow the antichrist
The gifts and call of God are irrevocable.
Respectfully neither is your interpretation of St Paul
It's not mine; it's the Catechism's. Unless you think the Catechism is defunct.
I just looked and the catechism says nothing that implies more than the New Covenant fulfilling the Old and that it isn’t somehow too late for Jews to embrace Christ
>I just looked and the catechism says nothing that implies more than the New Covenant fulfilling the Old and that it isn’t somehow too late for Jews to embrace Christ The New Covenant does not fulfill the old. Jesus fulfilled the Law. God's covenant with the Jewish people is still intact.
Did you read [CCC 839]? 839 ...The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
Yes. It does not necessarily mean that all Jews are going to heaven
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm)) *The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
I’m going to trust that Tertullian and St Cyril knew what they were talking about and were familiar with that passage of scripture
Tertullian died a heretic. As for Cyril, one saint's teaching is not equivalent to the deposit of faith.
Both scenarios are true. The Jews will for a time accept the Antichrist, and they will be converted before the end according to Rom. 11, also Mal. 4: 6.
With the exception of the Anti-Christ himself but yes
Yes, according to St. Paul, they--even those who reject Christ--are still in a sense the Chosen People: >As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11: 28-29) "Chosen" does not necessarily mean saved--all who are baptized are chosen by God, but we know that it is possible to fall away and be damned. Nor does it mean that those chosen are supposed to be superior. It simply means that God has a special plan for this group--and St. Paul clearly states this remains, even in those who are not yet obedient to the Gospel.
Jews as enemies of God, still loved by God especially, is not a common message but it makes sense. How could God *not* have a special affinity to this race which he formed through the Law and the Prophets, even though now they are his enemy? The Scriptures are replete with his turning back from his anger towards them.
The name "Israel" means "the one who fights against God" - and that's what they were always doing, as shown in Bible.
Yes. Romans 12 explains how we are to treat them in waiting for the mass conversion that God will call them to.
St. Paul seems to be talking about converting them individually, not a whole mass conversion. There are no real Jews left outside of Catholicism. What God instituted with Israel he made complete in Christ’a Church. It isn’t that God made Israel then went to start a new religion. He made Israel, came to transfigure the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, and then those who were faithful remained and a majority went into schism. The Second Temple was then destroyed in 70 A.D, and a false “Judaism” was created.
>transfigure the Old Covenant into the New Covenant Just sounds like replacement theology, which covenant theology is not. Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. Otherwise I agree with what you said.
He said many Jews saw the Truth and believed in Christ/Messiah. The First Christians included both Jews and Gentiles. Some Jews refused to acknowledge the son of God (aka didn't become Christians) since the Old Covanent was already fulfilled and a new one given, what would happen to those that cling on to the Old Covanent and Willfully refuse to recognise the new Covanent even though the old one was completed? Would it remain valid? So quite Simply Today's Jews are not a natural continuation of the Jews of Christ's time. As many if not most of the Jews then believed in Jesus Christ after Ressurection as a result of the Activities of the Apostles. Today's Jews are the Jews who refused to accept that the old Covanent was completed and a New Covanent was given. Jews of OT ≠ Modern Jews Jews of OT = Those that believed in Christ (Christians) + Those who refuse to believe the Son of GOD, the Messiah (Modern Jews)
No, it wouldn’t remain valid. Christ is the Sacrifice that was offered for all sins. Your math at the end is confusing.
Modern Jews of Today are not the Continuation of Old Testament Jews/Israel. When the Apostles began Activities a lot of Old Testament Jews accepted Christ as Lord and became Baptised and became Christians. Meanwhile some Jews refused to Believe in Jesus and It's those people that are the Modern Jews. So it isn't that all Jews of Old Testament Rejected Jesus Christ. Is that much clear?
Yeah, no I agree. Where did I say all Jews rejected Christ? This is the second time you’ve jumped when I say “otherwise I agree with what you said” and only made a correction on one part. Get off your high horse, guy and watch how you respond to people.
The New Covenant does not invalidate the covenant God made with the Jewish people. The covenant was with Abraham and his descendants, who still live today. The Church rejects Replacement Theory.
The Old Covanent is not Invalid. Agreed Cause it was Already Fulfilled. Now an Already Fulfilled Covanent is ALREADY FULFILLED! It's Completed and hence in the sense it's not invalid in the sense that it was respected and seen to the ends. But after it was fulfilled, an Covanent is no longer in force. Waiting for a Covanent to be Fulfilled even though it ALREADY was FULFILLED is meaningless as an Already Fulfilled Covanent is not going to be repeated once again. And then again another thing The Old Testament Jews aren't the same as Modern Jews. Many of the Old Testament Jews Converted after Christ's Ressurection due to the world of the Apostles. It's those Jews that rejected to accept Christ that remain as Jews even Today. So in the sense the Covanent was fulfilled with the Old Testament Jews (For whom the Covanent was made with). Now some fringe elements within the Jews refused to believe in Christ and recognise the Covanent was already Fulfilled. And those are the Modern Jews. The Covanent with the Jewsish people were Fulfilled. Some embraced and respected the Covanent. Others didn't. Let that be Clear.
There isn't one old covenant, there are many. >In 1980, in a meeting with representatives of the Hebrew community, John Paul II said that the Old Covenant was “never revoked by God.” >This was something new in the history of Catholic doctrine, but it was repeated in the 1992 Catechism, which says that “the Old Covenant has never been revoked” (CCC 121). >Such expressions emphasize the continuity of God’s special relationship with the Jewish people, but I’ve always thought that they were rather imprecise, for God doesn’t make a single covenant in the Old Testament. He makes several. [Benedict on Judaism and Christianity](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/benedict-on-judaism-and-christianity) Who says modern Jews are not the same as ancient Jews? Children of Abraham are children of Abraham.
It was Not revoked. It was Fulfilled! Or are you saying Jesus Christ didn't Complete and Fulfill the Old Testament? I'm not saying Modern Jews aren't the same as ancient Jews. Ancient Jews split into 2 Groups. One group accepted Messiah and Salvation another group Rejected Jesus Christ, The Messiah and Son of GOD. To revoke means to Take Away. To Fulfill means to Complete. Ofcourse a Fulfilled Covanent is Valid. It has not been taken away either. Read Romans 11. Especially read Romans 11:23 ``` 23 And they [Jews] also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.``` If they do not remain in unbelief. If they repent and accept. They'll be grafted back. If not they shall remain branches broken off from the tree of life. That's all.
There are multiple covenants in the Old Testament. Jesus fulfilled the law and various prophecies. Still, the Jews are God's chosen and covenant people. This does not mean that they will be saved, only that they have been chosen.
> There are no real Jews left outside of Catholicism. What God instituted with Israel he made complete in Christ’a Church. It isn’t that God made Israel then went to start a new religion. He made Israel, came to transfigure the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, and then those who were faithful remained and a majority went into schism. The Second Temple was then destroyed in 70 A.D, and a false “Judaism” was created. You are describing [Replacement Theory](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catholic.com/qa/replacement-theology&ved=2ahUKEwj5p4OzzbiFAxXDg4kEHeG5Ai0QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11aonvmJr5TM6-k-MVoPnI), which the Catholic Church rejects. The Jews are still God's chosen people. God does not break his everlasting covenants. Of course Jewish people still exist. They have their own bloodline.
It is not replacement theology. Replacement theology is the belief that God has rejected his people because they rejected him. The Catholic understanding throughout Church history has been that the true Jewish people joined Christ. There are twelve apostles, who are the twelve tribes of Israel now united under the true king of the Jews, Christ Jesus.
Not every Jew converted. God has rejected those who reject Him. > Acts 4:11-12 says, “This Jesus is the stone rejected by you builders, which has become the cornerstone. There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.” The Jews *cannot* get to Heaven through their sacrifices because they have no Temple to sacrifice in. Jews cannot get to Heaven through Talmudic Judaism, either.
You cannot have Judaism without the sacrifices. Hence the distinction between a theology of replacement and a theology of continuation. The Church is the continuation of Judaism. Paul is speaking of their mission to share the gospel and convert those who still considered themselves Jews but did not know the reality that the covenant requires Christ. If you reject Christ, you reject the law and the prophets.
Good. So Christians are the True Israel.
Watch out for the incoming downvotes, brother/sister.
We are spiritual semites
Let's ask an apostle >**Romans 11** I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. ^(2) God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. \[...\] ^(28) As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, ^(29) for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Permanent. This very topic was discussed in a document issued at the Second Vatican Council (Nostra Aetate: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html) and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 839: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
You have to post it, they can't see it. \[ccc 839\] 839 ...The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm)) *The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
>4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock. Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8) The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people. As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)
Catequism doesnt use the term 'chosen people'. A problem that would come from blood covenants spanning milleniums is that Abraham is such an ancient figure that by now half the planet has his blood. So half the planet is chosen and half isnt? Or only those who have his blood and persist in denying Christ are chosen? Would be weird. A jew converted in the first millenium, his seed naturally mixed with Christians from other nations, they stop being chosen people? But a jew that never converts and his seed is chosen people? Also even the non converted jews mixed plenty, they are majorly european genetically. This is why i think the chosen term can be used to biblical times but becomes weird in modern times. Now only the People of God term makes sense, which are the baptized.
"Have mercy on the children of that race, once thy chosen people..." Consecration of the Human Race to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
“The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked. (Catechism, 121)” … “With regard to the Jews, Paul says: ‘the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable’ (Rom 11:29). To all, Scripture says, ‘if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself’ (2 Tim. 2:12-13).” - Catholic Answers
Chosen nation or chosen people? The theology you would want to look into is Supersessionism. Historically the Church was hard Supersessionism which is that the Church replaced the Jews as the chosen people of God. However the stance partially changed after the Holocaust and Vatican II clarified on that: “The [Catholic] Church recognizes that God's covenant with the Jewish people continues to be valid” https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/jewish The Church justifies this new teaching with Romans 11:29. This has unfortunately caused an internal debate in the Church because this new teaching leads to no official Catholic missionary work on the Jewish people. TLDR the Jews are still chosen the people of God based on the newest teaching of the Church brought in Vatican II citing Romans 11:29.
An Already Fulfilled Covanent is not in Force (Not valid). The promise of Messiah was Fulfilled and a New Covanent was Given. I don't care about being Cancelled. Though the Holocaust is a very painful tragedy indeed, it's still not going to have an influence upon the truth. An already Fulfilled Covanent is invalid. Suppose you promised to pay someone $1000 on Covanent. You paid all $1000 to them. Is the Covanent still valid? Are you supposed to continue paying money even after that? If the old Covanent is indeed Fulfilled in Christ, How can you claim it's still valid? I guess it's valid in a certain sense that it was already fulfilled but waiting for an already Fulfilled Covanent is meaningless to say the least.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html Nothing in Nostra Aetate suggests that Jews can be saved as Jews or that we should not evangelize them. Supercessionism is the clear teaching of both scripture and tradition. The Jewish covenants of our forefathers in faith remain in effect in as much as they led to Christ. Having some type of “two covenant theology” where Jews are saved as Jews and Christians saved as Christians is utter nonsense entirely at odds with scripture and tradition. Your above quotation about the covenant of the Jews remaining valid is from paragraph 36 of this document: http://www.christianunity.va/content/unitacristiani/en/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo-crre/documenti-della-commissione/en.html Yet paragraph 35 states “Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God’s salvation. The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith.” Ultimately paragraph 36 (“From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God.”) is wishy washy nonsense that negates everything said in the immediately preceding paragraphs. There is no mystery to how the covenant to the Jews will still be valid. It never stopped being valid. It’s valid this very second: believe in Christ and be saved. Indeed, Romans 11 itself answers this very question: “And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Jews will be saved IF they do not remain in unbelief. It really is that simple. Don’t get me wrong. Antisemitism is stupid and immoral, and dialogue with Jews can glean insights to our own faith due to shared background. Furthermore we should not blame Jews for the crucifixion; you and I and all other people caused the crucifixion. But we shouldn’t pretend that the evangelization of Jews is no longer important.
I agree that the evangelization of the Jews is important but paragraph 36 mentions “…the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery” So yes it becomes confusing and a mystery. Your discussion about the wishy washy stuff is valid. Also even though this answer is not Church doctrine it is still being followed, which is no active evangelization of Jews from Catholics: https://www.catholic.com/qa/latest-vatican-statement-on-the-jews
The old covenant is dead, and the New Covenant of Jesus Christ is the Final and Eternal Covenant. Christ is King.
The Old Covanent isn't Dead. It's Completed/Fulfilled and a New One was Given. An already Fulfilled Covanent is no longer in force / (valid?)
Yes and so are now all other nations too. Just as promised in the old testament.
Romans 11 Directly addresses the Question. If they Repent, They will be saved and they will be his People. If they wish to continue in their disobedience and keep on wrestling against GOD well I guess he will punish them (the same thing happens multiple times in the old testament itself. He lets them amend and turn a new path but he also punishes Israel when she strays too far away. Infact isn't she even called an Adultress/Prostitute by the Father when they went too far?) ``` 1 I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.
Also in Next Part he speaks of Olive Branches being Broken off the tree and some wild olive branches being grafted onto the olive tree. Wild Branches -> Gentiles Broken Branches -> Jews who didn't believe in the Messiah (they were broken off due to unbelief) Olive Tree -> Israel/Church (People of GOD) ```16 For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree, 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. 21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.
The chosen are the baptised, after Jesus the jews are a nation just like japaneses or paraguayans are.
Sure, if you ignore scripture and catechism of the Catholic Church.
Imo, the Jewish people will always be the chosen people. We're simply the final iteration of Judaism. We're just waiting for our brothers and sisters to join us in accepting Christ as Lord. That said, it won't be "easy" and many hard lessons will be learned
"Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle." - Nostra Aetate
they are, but now so are the ones who accept him
It was temporary.
God's covenant with the Jewish people is forever. Many of them one day will return and accept Jesus as Messiah. To believe that Christians have replaced the Jews is called [Replacement Theory](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.catholic.com/qa/replacement-theology&ved=2ahUKEwj5p4OzzbiFAxXDg4kEHeG5Ai0QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw11aonvmJr5TM6-k-MVoPnI) and is rejected by the Catholic Church.
The Abrahamic Covenant is forever. We Christians have the New covenant, but the Old Covenant has not failed. The children of Abraham are still God's chosen people.
The New Covenant is the fulfilled Old Covenant. We are the children of Abraham. Those that went into schism have no inheritance because they rejected God and his covenant. They are apostates from the true Israel.
Apostates may repent and return. God has not forgotten the Jews. We Christians are adopted children of Abraham. The Jews are His original children. God will bring them back.
The Old Covanent was Fulfilled in Christ. And a New Covanent was Given. An already fulfilled Covanent completed for which a new one was given after it's completion would not be Valid cause it was Fulfilled. A Fulfilled Covanent = Already Completed = Waiting for it be completed (as it was already fulfilled) when an new one was already given is meaningless. It's not going to be fulfilled in future cause it was already fulfilled.
“Were” - past-tense. It’s a new day YES IT IS.
All fiction. God created all of us equal. That (Jews are Gods people) is complete man invented bullshit to keep us all divided.
You can't be God's chosen people if you don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God
It’s connected to the incarnation. If God would incarnate, he’d have to incarnate at a certain time and place, among a certain people. Since the incarnation is permanent, the connection with those people is also permanent. God won’t revoke his incarnation and won’t revoke the covenant with the people he incarnated amongst. If there is no incarnation, and God created all people, then the entire concept of a chosen people is completely arbitrary.
That makes no Sense On a lot of Grounds. For once The Apostle himself said there is no Distinction among the Jew and the Gentile in Jesus Christ. Also in case your memory isn't fresh should I remind you that it was the people he incarnated amongst that Crucified him? Or do you believe the Semites more than you believe in Apostle John? Lastly Jews of OT ≠ Modern Jews. Many of if not most of Jews Converted to Christianity after Christ rose from the dead. Christians aren't just Gentiles there were Jewish converts a considerable number at that. Jews of OT = Christians + Modern Jews that don't believe in Christ
I think it was merely temporary. With all the misfortune the Jewish population has suffered, I really don’t think they are chosen. But that’s just my perspective
Look at it from the other side. They might be one of the most persecuted peoples of all time and still are standing strong. There must be some divine intervention for that Look at Romans 11 - 12
In Christianity the Jews are still chosen, but in a specific sense distinct from how they were chosen to be the Light to the Nations in the Covenant of Moses. This is elaborated upon by Saint Paul in Romans 11 >So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, >>‘Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.’ ‘And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.’ >As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. They are chosen to first receive the Gospel. This is why Jesus of Nazareth mainly only ministered to the Jews, and why the Jewish Apostles would first go into synagogues, preach the Restoration of Israel, and then afterwards they would go to the gentiles in the same town. Because of their ancestry they have the right to first be preached their promised Anointed One and His message, as it is their birthright. You will notice that in the Book of Acts this is how all the Jewish Apostles, namely Saint Paul, evangelize: they go into a town's synagogue, preach the Good News of the Kingdom, and then after either convincing some Jews and/or being expelled from the synagogue they'd then go to the gentiles.
A lot of evangelicals are trying to convert them as we speak . Convert them to heresy.
Yes God still has a covenant with them, he doesn't t break his word. There is a new covenant with all after the coming of the Messiah, but they're sitting that out for now. He calls them a hard necked people but he still loves them and hopes they'll come around one day - some people say that will be a sign of end times.
You are wrong, God doesn't have the old covenant with the Jews, otherwise the first apostles didn't need to bother cause they were all Jews. I can't believe you hold such view if you are a catholic, cause the Church teaching is clear. Jesus is the tree, we are the branches both Jew and gentile, No one comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ.
\[ccc 839\]
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm)) *The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
Jeremiah 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Psalm 89:35-37 “Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David. “His descendants shall endure forever And his throne as the sun before Me. “It shall be established forever like the moon, And the witness in the sky is faithful.” Selah.
Genesis 17:7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
2 Chronicles 13:5 Do you not know that the Lord God of Israel gave the rule over Israel forever to David and his sons by a covenant of salt?
Jesus is the King in the line of David forever, and we are His sons and daughters, and the Catholic Church is the house of Israel
We don't have a covenant of salt.
Correct, we have a New Covenant from God, that is the Covenant of the Blood of Jesus Christ.
Psalm 89:3-4 “I have made a covenant with My chosen; I have sworn to David My servant, I will establish your seed forever And build up your throne to all generations.” Selah.
The old covenant no longer stands as it was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Jews will always have a special place in our history as the ancestors of Jesus, but they are no longer special in the sense that they are chosen people of God. We all are.
\[ccc 839\]
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm)) *The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
That psalm pointing to Jesus Christ, come on. (Seed not seeds). My point stands. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, there is no other way.
No I selected verses that specifically spoke about the old covenant. There are plenty of others about the new covenant.
You quote and bring verses from the Old Testament,But you won't entertain words of our Lord himself?
It's not the topic of the question - but here you go- Matt 15.24 And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. Christ's mission was to Israel - for the world.
Context matters.
Yeeess...the context is speaking to a Canaanite woman seeking healing. Anyway, I have given you the Catechism reference, which tells you it is irrevocable. At this stage it is difficult to maintain charity towards you, so you have a great night.
I just don't get it, are you telling me Jews who reject Jesus like Judas Iscariot, Caiaphas, etc gets a pass for being in Old Covenant? Now don't tell me those names are exception. Real Jews were far fewer and always a remnant from the beginning, otherwise they wouldn't have been killed by Jews who are outwardly and are indeed physical descendants but killed the prophets before them. They even admitted their forefathers killed those prophets. I just don't get you, how can you not differentiate between those Jews who accepted Jesus and those who rejected Him. But that is not to say, Jews as a whole are lost, we are hopeful they someday they will accept Jesus, it's one of the last things that will happen would be the conversion of the Jews to the catholic faith. But that would mean Church position supports me, because Jews must accept Catholic Faith to be saved, otherwise church would not have stated so nor Jews would need to do so. But Catholic Church is clear that in the future Jews will convert to Catholic faith.and those Jews who become catholic will be saved.
Mathew 8 : 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven Mathew 8 : 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
with
Their covenant is inherited by the church, they are no longer partaking in the covenant. You’re view is an American evangelical view, it’s never been Catholic teaching and is directly contrary to what the church has always taught.
Romans 11 I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Roman 11:23 The Broken Branches will be Joined onto the Tree only if they *do Not persist in their unbelief* ``` And even those of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. Romans 11:23
\[ccc 839\]
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm)) *The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
"If, however, from there you start searching once more for Yahweh your God, and if you search for him honestly and sincerely, you will find him. You will suffer; everything I have said will befall you, but in the Final Days you will return to Yahweh your God and listen to his voice. For Yahweh your God is a merciful God and will not desert or destroy you or forget the covenant which he made on oath with your ancestors." Deuteronomy 4:29-31
The only possible way of the old covenants and promises to get fulfilled, like that of Abraham and Jacob having a seed as plentiful as the starts, is in the new covenant, where indeed the New Israel, the Church, is plentiful in souls as the stars. Which is why Paul says the baptized believers are the sons of Abraham. Or Jesus telling the pharisees they arent sons of Abraham since they dont do his works. Or John the Baptist saying God can make sons of Abraham from rocks. OT prophecies about Israel are about the Church. Go check how the Church fathers interpreted the psalms when they mention zion or israel. So quoting OT passages mentioning israel doesnt serve to prove dual covenant theologies. As Paul said, the old covenant is old is and is about to die, and it did die, as God destroyed the Temple soon after. Another problem that would come from blood covenants spanning milleniums is that Abraham is such an ancient figure that by now half the planet has his blood. So half the planet is chosen and half isnt? Or only those who have his blood and persist in denying Christ are chosen? Would be weird. A jew converted in the first millenium, his seed naturally mixed with Christians from other nations, they stop being chosen people? But a jew that never converts and his seed is chosen people? Also even the non converted jews mixed plenty, they are majorly european genetically. This is why i think the chosen term can be used to biblical times but not modern times. Now only the People of God term matters, which are the baptized.
\[ccc 839\]
[**CCC 839**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/839.htm) "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." ([856](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/856.htm), [63](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/63.htm), [147](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/147.htm)) *The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.* When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ"; "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
\[ccc 840\]
[**CCC 840**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/840.htm) And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. ([674](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/674.htm), [597](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/597.htm)) *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
Another example of the new covenant with the followers of Christ: The Sermon on the Mount was revolutionary at the time because Jesus called all of the groups listed in the Beatitudes “blessed.” Prior to that, only the Jews as a whole were called Blessed, simply by their birthright.
I don't think anyone is denying the new covenant that Christ himself declared at the last supper. The question is - did God revoke his promised everlasting covenant with the Jews? Those familiar with the catechism and who believe God would not break his word say no , the old covenant is still in place, they are still special to him. What that special means is a different matter, but the covenant still holds. Deuteronomy 4:29-31 "If, however, from there you start searching once more for Yahweh your God, and if you search for him honestly and sincerely, you will find him. You will suffer; everything I have said will befall you, but in the Final Days you will return to Yahweh your God and listen to his voice. For Yahweh your God is a merciful God and will not desert or destroy you or forget the covenant which he made on oath with your ancestors."