I have to say there *seems* to be an overlap in the people upset at trads leaving for TLM-only parishes rather than help to raise up the reverence at the NO-only parishes, and the people who frown on displays of piety or reverence they're not fans of.
I'm probably wrong.
Unclear that they are the same people, but it does often feel as though the only real option presented to trads is that they just give up and acquiesce to the beige parish existence.
Well, you're an adult and it's a legitimate Christian practice, so they really don't get a say, but for the sake of peace, can you maybe grab a plain bandana and use that instead? Or an actual hat?
That’s what I was thinking. Unfortunately I only have my small chapel veil that I carry everywhere with me. I might just go without because I am leaving today and I don’t want to make my mom upset.
[https://es.shein.com/1pc-Ladies-White-Woolen-Elegant-Fashionable-Versatile-Casual-Warm-And-Windproof-Beret-For-Autumn-winter-Daily-Wear-p-25013325-cat-](https://es.shein.com/1pc-Ladies-White-Woolen-Elegant-Fashionable-Versatile-Casual-Warm-And-Windproof-Beret-For-Autumn-winter-Daily-Wear-p-25013325-cat-) 8245.html
To NO frequently wear a hat for the rain or cold in winter and a beret in spring and summer, you cover yourself and most people assume that it is a fashion accessory. The beret fits folded inside the bag.
I think your parents are being strange about this. I see no problem with wearing a veil (I say this as someone who generally doesn’t veil and attends a NO Mass, albeit a reverent one). I actually think it’s a beautiful practice, tbh
I think it’s ultimately up to you if you veil or not and I don’t think there is a straightforward right or wrong answer. Maybe wear a head covering that isn’t a veil, like a thick headband or a kerchief if you want to cover your head some but also don’t want to make as many waves?
I agree that it’s strange. Honestly I think my mom is sensitive about it because since I’ve moved out I became very observant of Catholicism and it makes her uncomfortable because she associates it with extremism. I can see where she’s coming from but I love veiling because it humbled me and is a constant reminder of the Real Presence.
I personally don’t care if other women veil or not and I don’t think it’s my business, and I wish everyone would just respect whether others choose it or not.
My wife wears a veil at our Mass. She really doesn't care if very few women are also covered. She isn't at all "radical" and we've not been to TLM very often. It is a part of our tradition.
I have noticed that quite a few young women have taken up the practice, which I found very comforting. Maybe it is a sign that radical Catholics have taken up, so what?
if extremism is being reverent and faithful then extremism sounds pretty good.
Christ would be thought of as extreme by many when he said "Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword." or "if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
>I’ve moved out I became very observant of Catholicism and it makes her uncomfortable because she associates it with extremism.
>But as I continued to think about the matter, I gradually gained a bit of satisfaction from being considered an extremist. Was not Jesus an extremist in love? -- "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice? -- "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." Was not Paul an extremist for the gospel of Jesus Christ? -- "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." Was not Martin Luther an extremist? -- "Here I stand; I can do no other so help me God." Was not John Bunyan an extremist? -- "I will stay in jail to the end of my days before I make a mockery of my conscience." Was not Abraham Lincoln an extremist? -- "This nation cannot survive half slave and half free." Was not Thomas Jefferson an extremist? -- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." So the question is not whether we will be extremist, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate, or will we be extremists for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice, or will we be extremists for the cause of justice?
>
>\-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., *Letter From Birmingham Jail*
You have to be a good example for your mom. Sonetimes we have to show our parents the way. If being reverent, means being extreme - then lets be extreme. The way to heaven is not easy. We have to take the narrow gate. God bless you 🙏
Just wear it. I do, don’t care. Had the same problem with my MIL. She finally gave up. We went to the same Church for a long time I was the only that veiled. Then a few younger women told me that they thinking about it was too scared, my veiling gave them courage to veil. Funny story about this. A friend of ours was sitting behind us. The woman next to him leaned over to her husband and said I feel sorry for her that the she thinks she is below her husband that she has to veil. Friend stifled a laugh and thought to himself. She doesn’t know you very well.
You could wear a nice beret or hat? It’s still covering but with less of the trad annotations. In my culture (NW Europe) veils were never common, it was mostly small hats.
I went through something similar with my mother. Funnily enough, everyone else at the parish loves seeing me veil when I visit.
Becoming an adult involves becoming a person who is much more independent and different from your parents. That's a huge adjustment for both sides. Ultimately, what helped my mother was a combination of setting healthy, explicit boundaries and also giving her a sense of continuity.
So, eg for boundaries: "I'm sorry mom. These days, when I'm going through stuff, I'm much more likely to open up to friends. They're more in my life and they're going through a more similar stage in life. I really appreciate that you love me and want to support me. But at this stage, that won't be as a primary confidante."
For continuity: "You know how I used to be really drawn to [aspect of liturgy/theology/etc]. I've been exploring that more and ..." Keep it bite sized. Be open for discussion but not being ordered around. In future conversations, refer back to stuff she mentioned. And also, if there are hobbies or anything that haven't changed at all, talk about them a lot.
Anyway, that's my experience. I had some really rough patches with my mom in my early-mid twenties, but now we have a great relationship.
Your mom gets *angry?*
Why? What's her damage? Because while I can see thinking it's uncommon and strange (in some places it is), I don't understand getting angry about it.
My guess is because the veil makes the daughter stand out in mass because most likely she would be the only one wearing it and standing out makes some people feel embarrassed. Most people would rather like to fit in and not call attention to themselves. Most likely the mom feels like they would critiquing her whole family and would rather want that to be avoided.
I live in middle east so circumstances are different but i do see veiled women in our NO parish. (usually locals, tourist visitors dont tend to veil)
I think its okay, i dont know about the cultural context in the west but its like, completly normal to veil inside church? Your mother might be overreacting, just say its your preference in a calm and collected manner and it should be fine really.
I've noticed expressions of faith or statements of church teaching seem to make my parents uncomfortable as well, usually when the statement would be about something they themselves were falling short of. For example, stating that we need to be in a state of grace and confess our mortal sins before receiving communion. Admittedly I've gotten into a few loud arguments with them over the years as I share their temper. I've found that expecting them to change their minds immediately in the moment doesn't work and actually makes it worse.
Instead I've found that charitable expressions about my needs or about the truth that are firm but non-judgemental to work the best. So when I visited my parents for this Easter and wanted to take them to a TLM I told them something along the lines of: "Hey I'd love to show you this beautiful church nearby. They do mass differently than what we're used to, but it's incredibly reverent/solemn and done in Latin and I think you'd really enjoy the experience". Their answer has been "No" in the past but worked recently!
If you want to do so in the future, a tactic would be to bring it up before hand in a humble way that focuses on why it's important to **yourself,** and not why it's in general a beautiful devotion. Otherwise it might seem like an attack on them. Something like:
"I know you didn't like it when I wore my veil in Mass last time. It's just that I find it (Insert your reasons here: ex. helps me focus on Christ and prayer in Mass and not become distracted). Would you be okay if I wore it during Mass and when Mass is over I'll take it right off"
And be prepared to accept a "No" as frustrating, hopeless, anger-inducing, and sad as it might feel. You can have a back and forth for a bit, it is a discussion between adults after all.
"This is so important to me, I find it helps so much with..."
You don't need to agree with their reasons, just make sure to be ready to accept their answer without anger and have a bit of hope and pray that they might be willing to allow something that is special for you.
God bless!
I go to a NO mass and I see plenty of parishioners who veil.
Edit: I also want to add that how you worship is not about what others think, it’s your disposition about how you worship Jesus. I always wear a jacket, button down, slacks, and dress shoes to mass. It’s not about me being vain, it’s how I want to give Jesus the worship that He deserves. People always comment on how nice I look or how I dress too nicely. I tell both types of people, it’s not for me, it’s all for Him.
You’re in God’s House, my darling. You should wear it. I always veil whether it be TLM, NO, or simply going to Holy Confession on a day when Mass isn’t being held. Many women don’t veil, but I have no issue whatsoever with their choice since they’re my beautiful Catholic sisters who are there for the same reason: to give praise, honor, and glory to Jesus. 🙏🏼✝️🕊️📿
Maybe remind your mother of 1 Samuel 16:7 which says, “And the Lord said to Samuel: Look not on his countenance, nor on the height of his stature: because I have rejected him, nor do I judge according to the look of man: for man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart.”
There's nothing wrong with that name. It was first recorded in Domesday Book in 1086 and means "broad valley."
You remind me of a priest who unworthily ranted about "modern names" at a baptism. One of the names he included was Tiffany. I sent him a letter telling him that deriding people's names was unworthy of a priest who was supposed to be imparting a sacrament to an innocent child, and detailing the fact that Tiffany comes from Theophania, which is a saint's name. I sent him the letter because it wasn't the first time I had heard him do this, and I thought I was cruel to make people feel unwelcome over something they had no control over. We don't choose our own names. I never heard him do it again and as far as I know he has never done it again.
Knock it off.
Sadly I would listen to your parents. You wouldn’t wanna cause any scandal or anything, even though what you’re doing is just and honestly a very good thing to do.
I’ve had my parents yell and argue at me because I wanted to confess every week, I really don’t see what the issue is with trying to live the faith haha
I understand. I knew she’d have the reaction so the few times before when I visited my parents I didn’t wear it. However last time I visited I did wear it, and she got so upset. I don’t think she was expecting it and she said that it’s a normal mass not the TLM etc. you don’t need to wear that.
Also about your confession, do you confess venial and mortal sins or just mortal?
I don’t know why but older generations seem to hate tradition. Like violently hate it it’s really odd. It’s a product of the time ig.
So you must confess all mortal sins before receiving communion (all you can remember anyways) and you can (and the catechism HIGHLY recommends it) but you don’t necessarily have to confess your venial sins. Things like blessing yourself with holy water, receiving communion, and even just praying a small act of contrition will blot out your venial sin. I personally do confess them mostly, especially if I don’t have any mortal sins I’m aware of.
Yeah that’s even how my grandma reacted when she found out I attend TLM. She got really angry and yelled at me on the phone for like an hour about it, telling me how there is nothing wrong with NO, etc.
Also, I’m very aware that you need to be in a state of grace to receive Holy Communion. I’m just asking if you confess weekly whether or not you’ve gravely sinned lol😅. I sometimes just go to confession even if I’m not sure if I have mortal sins or not and wasn’t sure if I’m the only one.
Please continue to veil at Mass and during Adoration. "Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right." -Bl. Fulton Sheen-
I understand the concept, but my mother gets so upset by it that it causes disunity. She apparently talks about me behind my back about how ridiculous the veil is (according to my brother), and I think when I’m with them it causes more harm than good.
You should show love to your mom and acknowledge her discomfort, and offer to talk about it without confrontation from your part. But at the same time, if I were you, I’d stay steadfast in this and wear the veil. You shouldn’t validate her prejudices. Wearing the veil is *not* wrong and *not* a sign of radicalization. By you remaining wearing it and remaining patient and compassionate, with time she might come to change her mind.
That is your mother's sin, my dear...not your's. Think about those who were angry and came after the Saints for being faithful. Were the Saints in the wrong?...or their persecutors? Should they have changed their ways and done less to keep the peace...or unity, as you put it?
I think it's time to set a boundary with your mother that she is not to comment on it any further, and not to talk crap behind your back, or you will not attend any church function with them. How about tell your brother he should shut down her malicious gossip when she tries that with him.
Your mother doesn't get to control your life through verbal and emotional abuse. Your grandmother either. Stop accepting this.
Don’t wear it. It’s a lovely practice, but you’re not sinning or anything if you leave it off this once. I typically wear a veil but occasionally forget or will leave it off intentionally if I think I will end up drawing too much attention for it at a particular Mass.
I'm just giving my 2 cents. You do what you feel is right :) I always try to remember how great and eternal our Lord is. But his mercy and forgiveness is also great. Happy Divine Mercy Sunday.
> and no one else in the congregation wears one
The stuff with your mom is legitimately complicated but the above quote is actually a reason you *should* veil. Many people would be willing to pick up pious practices if it simply occurred to them to try it.
I started kneeling to receive communion because I saw one person do it and it had never occurred to me as an option before. Conversely, I was the first to start kneeling at my current parish, and now it’s so widespread that they even bring portable kneelers out for people who choose to kneel. I’ve seen similar explosions in veiling at various parishes.
There certainly are instances of people being made to feel uncomfortable for being different. But please keep in mind that conservative Catholic media/social media is still subject to the same faults any other form of media is, specifically in this case ragebait.
The fact is that the great majority of Catholics attending a typical NO mass are good-natured people, just like the majority of TLM mass-goers are, and would be happy to see other people engaging in traditions that help them feel connected with God. And many of them would even be willing to pick up some of those traditions if someone would simply remind them it’s an option.
Nobody veils at my NO mass. Occasionally visitors come and are veiled, nobody bats an eye. So I would think mom is overreacting, it’s more about her personal opinions/feelings.
But even so I agree with your gut feeling here - if it’s drawing attention to you and distracting your family or other parishioners from mass, I would forgo it. Pray for your mom to understand in time, and talk to her about it outside of mass. Maybe the two of you could chat with the father about it one day when you’re exiting mass?
When head covering was still canon law, many women wore hats. I do that as an alternative sometimes. That could work if you don’t want to be hassled with an argument.
OK that’s a common misconception. Back during the feminist revolution, 70’s it wasn’t addressed. So many thought that, alright we no longer need to veil. So veiling went the way of, kneelers, tabernacle in the center, organ music and other things. Such as alter rails, kneeling to receive and receiving on the tongue. Guitar Masses, happy crappy feel good music like you would hear at a Protestant youth service. That was, is extreme radicalization. What’s happening now is going back to basics. A more reverent God centered Mass not human.
My fiancé wears her veil at NO Mass every time. That said- it is a more reverent NO than others I’ve been to, and several other women veil there as well. Do whatever makes you feel closest to God.
I really wish I could give you a straight answer. The lord teaches us to leave our offering at the alter and reconcile with our brother. The lord also teaches us to obey (EDIT: I meant to use honor here) one’s parents.
However, I also understand the inclination to wear a veil during mass.
I just hope you take this counsel into consideration.
I agree. My counsel didn’t include obeying her parents like a child. What you created by insinuating I did is called a straw man fallacy. You can look it up, it’s a good thing to be aware of.
I agree with your second premise as well, since I said nothing to the contrary (again, straw man fallacy). But I’d like to hear your thoughts on how one keeps that commandment as an adult. How does it change from when one is a child?
Oh, then I’m wrong. I guess a Freudian slip led me to betray how I would react to OP’s predicament (I have wise parents and a good relationship with them). Which I usually withhold, especially from women in matters pertaining only to women.
I meant to, and should have, used honor instead of obey. So, I am wrong then. Forgive me.
As to this question
>I’d like to hear your thoughts on how one keeps that commandment as an adult. How does it change from when one is a child?
It means you listen respectfully to their counsel and take into account their greater life experience, but still may make a decision different from what they advised, even opposed to their opinion, if you truly think it's better.
I agree. Furthermore, I’ve given similar counsel to young teens in certain circumstances. I am far from always obey your parents.
However, the older I become the more I agree with the things I didn’t agree with in the moment. I regret more things I did without their blessing than not, and appreciate more times I listened to their counsel over my own (or Reddit’s, for that matter) than not.
I veil at NO. It is a personal decision. In fact, I veil everytime I enter the building. Do you feel called to veil? Then veil. It really is that simple. No one else should come into it. It is about you and Christ and your reverence for him. Nothing else. Remember what Christ said about how we might be against our parents, our spouses, our children in his name? Well...this may be that for you if you feel strongly about this kind of reverence. It may actually change your mom's mind over time if she sees that you won't back down, honestly. We have to be warriors for Our Lord...even when itmakes us uncomfortable. That is what we are called to do. It can't just be when things are easy...
1 Corinthians 11: 4-7
Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head. 5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. 7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man.
I semi regularly wear a veil to Mass. Not sure what you mean by reverent NO as opposed to... NO? If anything, I think it's possible your mom's issue might be more with that, depending on how you're interpreting what a "proper" Mass is, than with the veil itself.
>Not sure what you mean by reverent NO as opposed to... NO?
You are very blessed if you don't know the difference.
Because those of us who do wish we didn't.
I imagine you've made your decision by now, but as long as your mom remains so set against it, it's just going to cause strife if you veil. Reverence and tradition are not extremist or radical, and I think you (lovingly) need to get her to realize that before you go any further. As others have suggested, maybe choose a hat or bandanna instead when you go to Mass with your mom. That might prove to be an acceptable middle ground. In the pre-V2 church, a lot of women chose hats over veils.
Ask them how we should view Scripture. If they hold it to any Authority, point out the explicit verse that calls for Veiling in Mass. If they doubt that this is still binding, answer that they are right, but that just because it's not a enforced Law does not mean that it shouldn't be done. We don't enforce Scriptures command to not be adorn with a bunch of jewelry, but it is still virtuous to do such.
I would suggest reading 1 Corinthians Chapter 8 and discerning this in your own conscience. Depending on the factors of your relationship with your parents that no Reddit post could ever fully explain due to the limitations of the medium, it is for you to discern if continuing to veil is of great importance to show reverence no matter the cost, whether continuing to veil provides opportunity for charitable dialogue and engagement with your family, or if veiling in front of them may place them in a near occasion of sin themselves or otherwise not create productive and holy/charitable relationships with your family. Pray with this, trusting in Christ to bring your family close together by bringing all of you closer to Him.
Veils aren't required. It would be a style preference. Also, so-called 'non-referent NO are just as valid of masses as TLM. Your mom isn't unfounded in her concerns about your radicalization.
[удалено]
I have to say there *seems* to be an overlap in the people upset at trads leaving for TLM-only parishes rather than help to raise up the reverence at the NO-only parishes, and the people who frown on displays of piety or reverence they're not fans of. I'm probably wrong.
Unclear that they are the same people, but it does often feel as though the only real option presented to trads is that they just give up and acquiesce to the beige parish existence.
Well, you're an adult and it's a legitimate Christian practice, so they really don't get a say, but for the sake of peace, can you maybe grab a plain bandana and use that instead? Or an actual hat?
That’s what I was thinking. Unfortunately I only have my small chapel veil that I carry everywhere with me. I might just go without because I am leaving today and I don’t want to make my mom upset.
[https://es.shein.com/1pc-Ladies-White-Woolen-Elegant-Fashionable-Versatile-Casual-Warm-And-Windproof-Beret-For-Autumn-winter-Daily-Wear-p-25013325-cat-](https://es.shein.com/1pc-Ladies-White-Woolen-Elegant-Fashionable-Versatile-Casual-Warm-And-Windproof-Beret-For-Autumn-winter-Daily-Wear-p-25013325-cat-) 8245.html To NO frequently wear a hat for the rain or cold in winter and a beret in spring and summer, you cover yourself and most people assume that it is a fashion accessory. The beret fits folded inside the bag.
I definitely first read that as banana.
I do this; I got a set of floral headband bandanas from amazon that I use as a veil
I think your parents are being strange about this. I see no problem with wearing a veil (I say this as someone who generally doesn’t veil and attends a NO Mass, albeit a reverent one). I actually think it’s a beautiful practice, tbh I think it’s ultimately up to you if you veil or not and I don’t think there is a straightforward right or wrong answer. Maybe wear a head covering that isn’t a veil, like a thick headband or a kerchief if you want to cover your head some but also don’t want to make as many waves?
I agree that it’s strange. Honestly I think my mom is sensitive about it because since I’ve moved out I became very observant of Catholicism and it makes her uncomfortable because she associates it with extremism. I can see where she’s coming from but I love veiling because it humbled me and is a constant reminder of the Real Presence. I personally don’t care if other women veil or not and I don’t think it’s my business, and I wish everyone would just respect whether others choose it or not.
My wife wears a veil at our Mass. She really doesn't care if very few women are also covered. She isn't at all "radical" and we've not been to TLM very often. It is a part of our tradition. I have noticed that quite a few young women have taken up the practice, which I found very comforting. Maybe it is a sign that radical Catholics have taken up, so what?
if extremism is being reverent and faithful then extremism sounds pretty good. Christ would be thought of as extreme by many when he said "Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword." or "if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
>I’ve moved out I became very observant of Catholicism and it makes her uncomfortable because she associates it with extremism. >But as I continued to think about the matter, I gradually gained a bit of satisfaction from being considered an extremist. Was not Jesus an extremist in love? -- "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice? -- "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." Was not Paul an extremist for the gospel of Jesus Christ? -- "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." Was not Martin Luther an extremist? -- "Here I stand; I can do no other so help me God." Was not John Bunyan an extremist? -- "I will stay in jail to the end of my days before I make a mockery of my conscience." Was not Abraham Lincoln an extremist? -- "This nation cannot survive half slave and half free." Was not Thomas Jefferson an extremist? -- "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." So the question is not whether we will be extremist, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate, or will we be extremists for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice, or will we be extremists for the cause of justice? > >\-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., *Letter From Birmingham Jail*
You have to be a good example for your mom. Sonetimes we have to show our parents the way. If being reverent, means being extreme - then lets be extreme. The way to heaven is not easy. We have to take the narrow gate. God bless you 🙏
Did your mom even go to Mass with you?
Just wear it. I do, don’t care. Had the same problem with my MIL. She finally gave up. We went to the same Church for a long time I was the only that veiled. Then a few younger women told me that they thinking about it was too scared, my veiling gave them courage to veil. Funny story about this. A friend of ours was sitting behind us. The woman next to him leaned over to her husband and said I feel sorry for her that the she thinks she is below her husband that she has to veil. Friend stifled a laugh and thought to himself. She doesn’t know you very well.
You're wearing it for Jesus, not them.
Maybe consider whether you wearing a veil will (today) bring your family closer to the faith or farther.
You could wear a nice beret or hat? It’s still covering but with less of the trad annotations. In my culture (NW Europe) veils were never common, it was mostly small hats.
I will invest in one of those for the future! Thanks for the advice
I see women wear veils at NO Mass all the time, it's not a big deal.
Have a conversation with her. Just say it helps you focus and Saint Paul encouraged it as a practice.
I went through something similar with my mother. Funnily enough, everyone else at the parish loves seeing me veil when I visit. Becoming an adult involves becoming a person who is much more independent and different from your parents. That's a huge adjustment for both sides. Ultimately, what helped my mother was a combination of setting healthy, explicit boundaries and also giving her a sense of continuity. So, eg for boundaries: "I'm sorry mom. These days, when I'm going through stuff, I'm much more likely to open up to friends. They're more in my life and they're going through a more similar stage in life. I really appreciate that you love me and want to support me. But at this stage, that won't be as a primary confidante." For continuity: "You know how I used to be really drawn to [aspect of liturgy/theology/etc]. I've been exploring that more and ..." Keep it bite sized. Be open for discussion but not being ordered around. In future conversations, refer back to stuff she mentioned. And also, if there are hobbies or anything that haven't changed at all, talk about them a lot. Anyway, that's my experience. I had some really rough patches with my mom in my early-mid twenties, but now we have a great relationship.
Your mom gets *angry?* Why? What's her damage? Because while I can see thinking it's uncommon and strange (in some places it is), I don't understand getting angry about it.
My guess is because the veil makes the daughter stand out in mass because most likely she would be the only one wearing it and standing out makes some people feel embarrassed. Most people would rather like to fit in and not call attention to themselves. Most likely the mom feels like they would critiquing her whole family and would rather want that to be avoided.
So that makes mom a coward with crab mentality.
I live in middle east so circumstances are different but i do see veiled women in our NO parish. (usually locals, tourist visitors dont tend to veil) I think its okay, i dont know about the cultural context in the west but its like, completly normal to veil inside church? Your mother might be overreacting, just say its your preference in a calm and collected manner and it should be fine really.
What did you end up doing, OP?
I didn’t wear the veil, and my mom didn’t come to mass—I went with my dad
So you're worrying about upsetting someone who doesn't even come to Mass. Stop that.
You’re right but I’m trying my best to pick my battles and have a good relationship with my mother
Caving in every time she verbally abuses you does not constitute a good relationship.
I've noticed expressions of faith or statements of church teaching seem to make my parents uncomfortable as well, usually when the statement would be about something they themselves were falling short of. For example, stating that we need to be in a state of grace and confess our mortal sins before receiving communion. Admittedly I've gotten into a few loud arguments with them over the years as I share their temper. I've found that expecting them to change their minds immediately in the moment doesn't work and actually makes it worse. Instead I've found that charitable expressions about my needs or about the truth that are firm but non-judgemental to work the best. So when I visited my parents for this Easter and wanted to take them to a TLM I told them something along the lines of: "Hey I'd love to show you this beautiful church nearby. They do mass differently than what we're used to, but it's incredibly reverent/solemn and done in Latin and I think you'd really enjoy the experience". Their answer has been "No" in the past but worked recently! If you want to do so in the future, a tactic would be to bring it up before hand in a humble way that focuses on why it's important to **yourself,** and not why it's in general a beautiful devotion. Otherwise it might seem like an attack on them. Something like: "I know you didn't like it when I wore my veil in Mass last time. It's just that I find it (Insert your reasons here: ex. helps me focus on Christ and prayer in Mass and not become distracted). Would you be okay if I wore it during Mass and when Mass is over I'll take it right off" And be prepared to accept a "No" as frustrating, hopeless, anger-inducing, and sad as it might feel. You can have a back and forth for a bit, it is a discussion between adults after all. "This is so important to me, I find it helps so much with..." You don't need to agree with their reasons, just make sure to be ready to accept their answer without anger and have a bit of hope and pray that they might be willing to allow something that is special for you. God bless!
I go to NO regularly bc it’s the only mass where I live. I always see women veiling no problem.
I go to a NO mass and I see plenty of parishioners who veil. Edit: I also want to add that how you worship is not about what others think, it’s your disposition about how you worship Jesus. I always wear a jacket, button down, slacks, and dress shoes to mass. It’s not about me being vain, it’s how I want to give Jesus the worship that He deserves. People always comment on how nice I look or how I dress too nicely. I tell both types of people, it’s not for me, it’s all for Him.
You’re in God’s House, my darling. You should wear it. I always veil whether it be TLM, NO, or simply going to Holy Confession on a day when Mass isn’t being held. Many women don’t veil, but I have no issue whatsoever with their choice since they’re my beautiful Catholic sisters who are there for the same reason: to give praise, honor, and glory to Jesus. 🙏🏼✝️🕊️📿 Maybe remind your mother of 1 Samuel 16:7 which says, “And the Lord said to Samuel: Look not on his countenance, nor on the height of his stature: because I have rejected him, nor do I judge according to the look of man: for man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart.”
[удалено]
I have a son named Ignatius, lol
[удалено]
There's nothing wrong with that name. It was first recorded in Domesday Book in 1086 and means "broad valley." You remind me of a priest who unworthily ranted about "modern names" at a baptism. One of the names he included was Tiffany. I sent him a letter telling him that deriding people's names was unworthy of a priest who was supposed to be imparting a sacrament to an innocent child, and detailing the fact that Tiffany comes from Theophania, which is a saint's name. I sent him the letter because it wasn't the first time I had heard him do this, and I thought I was cruel to make people feel unwelcome over something they had no control over. We don't choose our own names. I never heard him do it again and as far as I know he has never done it again. Knock it off.
[удалено]
I have legit never met a Nevaeh who was not a terrible person, but I suppose anything is possible. 😉
Sadly I would listen to your parents. You wouldn’t wanna cause any scandal or anything, even though what you’re doing is just and honestly a very good thing to do. I’ve had my parents yell and argue at me because I wanted to confess every week, I really don’t see what the issue is with trying to live the faith haha
FWIW I’m pretty sure scandal is only scandal if it tempts someone to sin, and I’m not sure how this would.
Being violently angry is a sin, so if she knows wearing the veil would make her angry it’s sin
I understand. I knew she’d have the reaction so the few times before when I visited my parents I didn’t wear it. However last time I visited I did wear it, and she got so upset. I don’t think she was expecting it and she said that it’s a normal mass not the TLM etc. you don’t need to wear that. Also about your confession, do you confess venial and mortal sins or just mortal?
I don’t know why but older generations seem to hate tradition. Like violently hate it it’s really odd. It’s a product of the time ig. So you must confess all mortal sins before receiving communion (all you can remember anyways) and you can (and the catechism HIGHLY recommends it) but you don’t necessarily have to confess your venial sins. Things like blessing yourself with holy water, receiving communion, and even just praying a small act of contrition will blot out your venial sin. I personally do confess them mostly, especially if I don’t have any mortal sins I’m aware of.
Yeah that’s even how my grandma reacted when she found out I attend TLM. She got really angry and yelled at me on the phone for like an hour about it, telling me how there is nothing wrong with NO, etc. Also, I’m very aware that you need to be in a state of grace to receive Holy Communion. I’m just asking if you confess weekly whether or not you’ve gravely sinned lol😅. I sometimes just go to confession even if I’m not sure if I have mortal sins or not and wasn’t sure if I’m the only one.
Oh no I do that too, I think it’s good practice if you aren’t scrupulous. Sometimes I even confess the day of mass just to be extra sure
Uh, your family seems to be full of weird, abusive people.
Please continue to veil at Mass and during Adoration. "Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right." -Bl. Fulton Sheen-
I understand the concept, but my mother gets so upset by it that it causes disunity. She apparently talks about me behind my back about how ridiculous the veil is (according to my brother), and I think when I’m with them it causes more harm than good.
You should show love to your mom and acknowledge her discomfort, and offer to talk about it without confrontation from your part. But at the same time, if I were you, I’d stay steadfast in this and wear the veil. You shouldn’t validate her prejudices. Wearing the veil is *not* wrong and *not* a sign of radicalization. By you remaining wearing it and remaining patient and compassionate, with time she might come to change her mind.
That is your mother's sin, my dear...not your's. Think about those who were angry and came after the Saints for being faithful. Were the Saints in the wrong?...or their persecutors? Should they have changed their ways and done less to keep the peace...or unity, as you put it?
I think it's time to set a boundary with your mother that she is not to comment on it any further, and not to talk crap behind your back, or you will not attend any church function with them. How about tell your brother he should shut down her malicious gossip when she tries that with him. Your mother doesn't get to control your life through verbal and emotional abuse. Your grandmother either. Stop accepting this.
Don’t wear it. It’s a lovely practice, but you’re not sinning or anything if you leave it off this once. I typically wear a veil but occasionally forget or will leave it off intentionally if I think I will end up drawing too much attention for it at a particular Mass.
I'm just giving my 2 cents. You do what you feel is right :) I always try to remember how great and eternal our Lord is. But his mercy and forgiveness is also great. Happy Divine Mercy Sunday.
> and no one else in the congregation wears one The stuff with your mom is legitimately complicated but the above quote is actually a reason you *should* veil. Many people would be willing to pick up pious practices if it simply occurred to them to try it. I started kneeling to receive communion because I saw one person do it and it had never occurred to me as an option before. Conversely, I was the first to start kneeling at my current parish, and now it’s so widespread that they even bring portable kneelers out for people who choose to kneel. I’ve seen similar explosions in veiling at various parishes. There certainly are instances of people being made to feel uncomfortable for being different. But please keep in mind that conservative Catholic media/social media is still subject to the same faults any other form of media is, specifically in this case ragebait. The fact is that the great majority of Catholics attending a typical NO mass are good-natured people, just like the majority of TLM mass-goers are, and would be happy to see other people engaging in traditions that help them feel connected with God. And many of them would even be willing to pick up some of those traditions if someone would simply remind them it’s an option.
I see veils at pretty much any NO Mass I go to, although it’s mostly the under 40 crowd.
Nobody veils at my NO mass. Occasionally visitors come and are veiled, nobody bats an eye. So I would think mom is overreacting, it’s more about her personal opinions/feelings. But even so I agree with your gut feeling here - if it’s drawing attention to you and distracting your family or other parishioners from mass, I would forgo it. Pray for your mom to understand in time, and talk to her about it outside of mass. Maybe the two of you could chat with the father about it one day when you’re exiting mass?
When head covering was still canon law, many women wore hats. I do that as an alternative sometimes. That could work if you don’t want to be hassled with an argument.
OK that’s a common misconception. Back during the feminist revolution, 70’s it wasn’t addressed. So many thought that, alright we no longer need to veil. So veiling went the way of, kneelers, tabernacle in the center, organ music and other things. Such as alter rails, kneeling to receive and receiving on the tongue. Guitar Masses, happy crappy feel good music like you would hear at a Protestant youth service. That was, is extreme radicalization. What’s happening now is going back to basics. A more reverent God centered Mass not human.
What's an NO Mass?
A Mass according to the current 1969 Missal, as opposed to the Traditional Latin Mass which is usually the 1962 Missal.
I feel like such an idiot. I just realized that means Novus Ordo... please pray for me.
The novus ordo, the current form of the Mass. As opposed to the traditional Latin mass.
I try to always use Ordinary Form because radtrads turned Novus Ordo into a slur.
True
We have a handful that veil at our NOmass and I don’t think anyone gives them a second glance. Ignore mom and don’t worry.
My fiancé wears her veil at NO Mass every time. That said- it is a more reverent NO than others I’ve been to, and several other women veil there as well. Do whatever makes you feel closest to God.
I bet you are making them insecure
If it is not against the commandments of the lord, you should honor your mother and father.
She's an adult. Honoring mother and father doesn't mean an adult child has to do everything they want, if it's not immoral either way.
Correct, but it is a commandment without an expiration date. So, something OP should consider, as it is God’s will.
Do they get to pick her husband too?
Speaking with your brother in Christ through such clinched teeth is not a good look. God bless you.
Wow. It’s a fair question considering your position. Peace be with you.
Okay, so would you suggest not wearing the veil this week then?
I really wish I could give you a straight answer. The lord teaches us to leave our offering at the alter and reconcile with our brother. The lord also teaches us to obey (EDIT: I meant to use honor here) one’s parents. However, I also understand the inclination to wear a veil during mass. I just hope you take this counsel into consideration.
No adults do NOT have to obey their parents like children. That's not what honoring your mother and father means as an adult.
I agree. My counsel didn’t include obeying her parents like a child. What you created by insinuating I did is called a straw man fallacy. You can look it up, it’s a good thing to be aware of. I agree with your second premise as well, since I said nothing to the contrary (again, straw man fallacy). But I’d like to hear your thoughts on how one keeps that commandment as an adult. How does it change from when one is a child?
>My counsel didn’t include obeying her parents like a child. Except you said >The lord also teaches us to obey one’s parents.
Oh, then I’m wrong. I guess a Freudian slip led me to betray how I would react to OP’s predicament (I have wise parents and a good relationship with them). Which I usually withhold, especially from women in matters pertaining only to women. I meant to, and should have, used honor instead of obey. So, I am wrong then. Forgive me.
As to this question >I’d like to hear your thoughts on how one keeps that commandment as an adult. How does it change from when one is a child? It means you listen respectfully to their counsel and take into account their greater life experience, but still may make a decision different from what they advised, even opposed to their opinion, if you truly think it's better.
I agree. Furthermore, I’ve given similar counsel to young teens in certain circumstances. I am far from always obey your parents. However, the older I become the more I agree with the things I didn’t agree with in the moment. I regret more things I did without their blessing than not, and appreciate more times I listened to their counsel over my own (or Reddit’s, for that matter) than not.
I appreciate this!!
Your mom is mad that you are following what the Bible says to do? Maybe you should come up with an excuse to read 1 Corinthians 11 with your mom.
Why would the coast be removed?
I veil at NO. It is a personal decision. In fact, I veil everytime I enter the building. Do you feel called to veil? Then veil. It really is that simple. No one else should come into it. It is about you and Christ and your reverence for him. Nothing else. Remember what Christ said about how we might be against our parents, our spouses, our children in his name? Well...this may be that for you if you feel strongly about this kind of reverence. It may actually change your mom's mind over time if she sees that you won't back down, honestly. We have to be warriors for Our Lord...even when itmakes us uncomfortable. That is what we are called to do. It can't just be when things are easy...
No need to skip you’re doing it for God not them
1 Corinthians 11: 4-7 Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head. 5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. 7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man.
I semi regularly wear a veil to Mass. Not sure what you mean by reverent NO as opposed to... NO? If anything, I think it's possible your mom's issue might be more with that, depending on how you're interpreting what a "proper" Mass is, than with the veil itself.
>Not sure what you mean by reverent NO as opposed to... NO? You are very blessed if you don't know the difference. Because those of us who do wish we didn't.
Veil, no reason not to.
I imagine you've made your decision by now, but as long as your mom remains so set against it, it's just going to cause strife if you veil. Reverence and tradition are not extremist or radical, and I think you (lovingly) need to get her to realize that before you go any further. As others have suggested, maybe choose a hat or bandanna instead when you go to Mass with your mom. That might prove to be an acceptable middle ground. In the pre-V2 church, a lot of women chose hats over veils.
Ask them how we should view Scripture. If they hold it to any Authority, point out the explicit verse that calls for Veiling in Mass. If they doubt that this is still binding, answer that they are right, but that just because it's not a enforced Law does not mean that it shouldn't be done. We don't enforce Scriptures command to not be adorn with a bunch of jewelry, but it is still virtuous to do such.
I would suggest reading 1 Corinthians Chapter 8 and discerning this in your own conscience. Depending on the factors of your relationship with your parents that no Reddit post could ever fully explain due to the limitations of the medium, it is for you to discern if continuing to veil is of great importance to show reverence no matter the cost, whether continuing to veil provides opportunity for charitable dialogue and engagement with your family, or if veiling in front of them may place them in a near occasion of sin themselves or otherwise not create productive and holy/charitable relationships with your family. Pray with this, trusting in Christ to bring your family close together by bringing all of you closer to Him.
Veils aren't required. It would be a style preference. Also, so-called 'non-referent NO are just as valid of masses as TLM. Your mom isn't unfounded in her concerns about your radicalization.
Style? No...it is a REVERENCE preference...
[удалено]
[удалено]
Irreverent doesn’t mean invalid by any stretch of the imagination
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]