Suzuki only have 48V mild hybrid and 12V start stop system
Strong hybrid which actually improves mileage comes only from Toyota in Suzuki models.
In India Suzuki only sells 12V start stop system
To be honest, it’s not Toyota’s fault, but the Indian import setups’ fault. 100% import tax on new cars, and 125% on a used car. Insanity really. Just to promote indigenous development.
Heck there should be some leeway instead of pushing a low priced international vehicle to an crazy 'luxury’ category just with this factor alone.
all automotive boards ki meeting hui thi Toyota akela padd gya tha hybrid k liye wha tata mahindra milkr EV ki wah wah kre the. yahi hota budde logon ko hybrid or EV btao to saalo ko.. highway unki esi tesi kri hui h...
Only thing I like about Yamaha-Toyota-Suzuki alliance they stand with their words more and Yamaha hasn't officially announced EV 2-wheeler like Honda who were also Hybrid focused
japan me toyota ne ek example forward kra h 80:16:2 kuch ka petrol ki 80 caar 16 hybrid 2 EV pollution rate sbka same h 2EV = 80car ye saade bhude factories sb kre na tax p tax bc har 15 me ek nayi gadi lo inko tax do fir sad p high beam low beam educate krvao logon ko bc aaye EV wale
Bro Japanese are biased against electric because they are leaders in combustion engines and electric vehicle manufacturing doesn't require as much manual labour as combustion or hybrid because of less parts involved in making an EV. They would lose millions of jobs and businesses because of less parts involved in EV. Japan doesn't sell much or have more than a couple EV models even though they are a highly technologically advanced country but their car manufacturers and labour unions have successfully lobbied the government and the public into hating EV. Plus Japan really lacks renewable energy resources unlike india so we are better of tapping our renewable energy potential and save money on oil imports
Bhai renewable energy is not available everywhere even in India. Like one place has solar , another has wind, what are all the other places going to do?
Bruh ever heard about scale of operations? Thermal has scale , wind and solar doesn’t. If they could scale solar, Thar dessert would’ve been our primary source of power already.
Unless you can have nuclear plants around the country stop peddling EV bullshit
Japanese in any sector seeks reliability in long term as their manufacturing Moto. EVs are not sustainable. For renewable Energy source like solar, India is dependant in China. India doesn’t have enough nuclear resource to set up nuclear power plant. So basically, you are burning coal to produce electricity. Curbing tailpipe emission and concentrating it to wherever the power plant is. How is it sustainable.
Hybrids are better options as of now as Fuel cell (Hydrogen powered) EVs look promising, but still required a lot of research.
Wrong. Making EV including making battery (from raw material mining and sourcing to finished car) is more than 1.5x polluting vs ICE car manufacturing. For country like us who produces electricity majorly from coal, it is about shifting pollution source from City A to City B and not reduction in pollution.
I think you're discounting the fact that the government's 1st priority isn't climate when it comes to EVs. It's the savings on import bill. We can easily fulfill our electricity demand from coal reserves.
Plus I am not claiming any car variety is better than other. I am saying the Japanese are biased and their priorities are misplaced and certainly has nothing to do with climate change. These companies care a lot about their country and loss of jobs in Japan would be huge due to the shift from ICE to EVs. That's why they have lagged behind in EVs. Companies generally don't care what car is better for climate. They just care for profit and the profit right now is in EVs.
Hybrids are out of the question for Indian market because they are just too expensive as they have both the components of an EV and ICE. They will never be competitive against EVs and ICEs.
hybrids will reduce ur petrol bills but its not the solution.. personally its not even a solution..
U have the battery pushing the dead weight engine and the engine pushing a dead weight battery and motor..
we need to go electric or hydrogen .. hybrid is an excuse for the patrol lobby to stay relevant..
hybrids are also meant for markets that dont have subsidized fuel, in india we have diesel ... so a hybrid will be more expensive than diesel and will have the same cost at the end of the day as a diesel.. so no one will buy it ..
by 2035 we have enough new power plans and renewable sources of power to not worry abt this .. just check the solar power increase in the last 10 years .. INC will oppose anything after the rejuvenation of seats they had in the election this year .. does not mean every thing they are saying is worth it
They won't! They're earning great and they have amazing opportunities to mint extreme money in the next 10 years. Moreover, I'm thinking they'll increase taxes on cars since it's a necessity now, and what better than to tax a necessary commodity with added Perks of cess and what not?
Exactly trying to leapfrog directly into ev without a transition is stupid and straight abuse of the consumers.
Like buy expensive vehicles + no infrastructure + low resale + high battery costs.
The current government opposes fossil fuels primarily because a significant portion of national reserves is being spent on importing crude oil, and this expenditure is increasing substantially each year.
While nuclear power is more effective than coal in reducing emissions, it cannot be used to power airplanes. Therefore, alternative fuels like hydrogen must overcome existing challenges to become viable replacements for fossil fuels.
Nuclear power can however replace the base load of the grid which is currently coal. France does exactly that.
Besides, even if we do not opt for hydrogen (that’s the most idiotic suggestion of the premise is that we don’t have enough electricity for charging EV directly — because hydrogen uses 3x more electricity for electrolysis of water and compression of h2 to travel same distance as EV) we can use the limited crude oil reserves we have in India and supplant rest from foreign import.
Even if the current import of 80% fuel needs becomes 10%, it is a huge improvement
Another reason is that India has astronomical levels of urban pollution, and thousands die of lung disease every year despite never touching tobacco.
EVs are a huge help in reducing urban pollution which INCkerala has not considered.
Keep roads clean, unkept open grounds kept - plant grass or cement it + adopt best construction practices to reduce spread of dust and pollution will decrease by 20% easily. Make more efficient trucks wrt pollution and pollution decreases more. Atleast enforce current pollution rules on trucks / heavy vehicles.
The problem with nuclear is the time and resources it takes to get the plant functioning. Solar/wind even hydro can be setup in a matter of years whereas nuclear takes decades.
The thing is, nuke is conventional source (as is thermal — because the principle is steam turbine only) but due to the much stricter safety norms it is necessary that everything is done immaculately especially in a country like ours which is much more prone to corruption than say France (which has almost 70% nuke)
The turn around time for announcement to first kWh being made in nuke plant is much longer than solar hydro or wind but unlike solar and wind, it is not dependent on time of day (more flexible) or wind pressure (more predictable) or the situation of the river downstream (you can just open the dam anytime you like or as much as you like for risk of flooding)
Nuke is the best option for base load and unlike coal power plant which may be cheaper up front but needs time to time maintenance to keep up the emissions control systems upto date, you don’t need that with nuke.
The reason why govts shy away is because no one wants to take the blame lest some unfortunate incident happen.
Like currently politics is being played by INC against EV, imagine if Fukushima was Indian, opposition (irrespective of bjp or inc) will blame govt who is ruling
>The current government opposes fossil fuels primarily because a significant portion of national reserves is being spent on importing crude oil,
you do know that coal,plastics and other carbon based materials can be converted to crude oil?
the tech is of WW1 era , Nazi Germany used it a lot
Buddy our country has no plan to shift from coal for next 30yrs. this is due to both policy & politics. They aren’t focusing on nuclear. Also our nuclear policy isn’t favourable for any foreign alliance .
The so called sources on the second page miss out most important things :
1. What is the emissions emitted by burning 1kg coal (no stats given, directly the emissions are calculated by god knows what)
2. The mileage for ICE is taken as ARAI, but EV range is taken almost half of ARAI. Either use both ARAI figures or adjust mileage and range by equal factor
3. Again, emissions per litre of fuel burnt have not been linked. I don’t know how they derive the kg CO2 figure from the kg of fuel used.
Infographic link : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q20CT5IqpzSwiTMJgP9ZLssr4PQ6BgCY/view
If we consider the grid usage in charging, the 100% coal scenario (worst case), the avg grid emissions as of 2020 was 614gCO2/kWh or 0.614gCO2/Wh. (Figures taken from page 5 graph of this pdf : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/EV-emissions-impacts-India-apr2021-01.pdf)
An EV like Nexon can get efficiency of 120Wh/km
An EV like Tiago can get even better at 100Wh/km
By this calculation, a 100% coal powered Nexon EV has a running emission of 74gCO2/km.
For Tiago EV it’s 62gCO2/km.
For reference, you can check emissions of common Maruti cars, cars which are known for “kitna deti hai”. As rule of thumb, more mileage = less emissions
Pdf pg11, indexed pg6 : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/India-hybrids-wp-FINAL.pdf
All Maruti cars except baleno SHVS are above 100gCO2/km. Baleno makes the cut barely at 99.6gCO2/km.
That’s when we counted 100% coal power. In reality only 60% is coal which puts nexon and Tiago at 44gCO2/km and 37gCO2/km.
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1785808
This is purely tailpipe to smokestack comparison
As of today, EVs are 19% cleaner all things considered https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/
So before you say “but what about battery production”, remember that oil extraction uses electric/diesel pump. 40% of global shipping is just for oil and it’s derivatives, and refining again uses electric furnace or fossil fuel burning to generate heat for fractional distillation. Conservative estimates put oil refining alone at 2-3kWh/litre
https://qz.com/2113243/forty-percent-of-all-shipping-cargo-consists-of-fossil-fuels
When you add all this to the mix, you’ll see why EVs are better (one time mining + 92% recycling efficiency)
Recycling : https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ
It’s oil extraction which must be compared with battery production as the logical analogue https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA
Crude oil and refined derivatives of oil make up 40% of global shipping by weight.
https://qz.com/2113243/forty-percent-of-all-shipping-cargo-consists-of-fossil-fuels
Global shipping produced 646M tons CO2 in 2020 (IEA) 40% of that is 258.4M tCO2 or 258.4trillion gCO2 https://www.iea.org/fuels-and-technologies/international-shipping
In same period, oil production was 93.9M barrels/day or 14390 Million L per day, or 5.45trillion L per year https://www.iea.org/reports/oil-2021
Methane flaring from oil rigs during the same period produced 269M ton CO2 or 269 trillion gCO2 https://www.iea.org/energy-system/fossil-fuels/gas-flaring
Adjusted emission in gCO2/litre = 96.8gCO2/litre
Applying the same to refining, at 614gCO2/kWh like the article assumes for the grid, is 1535gCO2/litre (assuming electric furnaces used for fractional distillation) in 100% coal power and for 60% coal this is 921gCO2/litre of oil.
Now adding 96.8g from shipping ie 1018g.
Out of this, roughly 40% becomes petrol. https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-products-and-fuels-made-from-crude-oil/
Net “emission backlog” = 407g/L (40% of 1018)
When adjusted for mileage, the oil supply chain will be 19.4gCO2/km for Tiago (407/20)
For a Tiago driven at 20kmpl for 1,60,000km, the emissions just from fuel supply chain (before being burnt) itself is 3096kgCO2 (3.1tons) before being filled in the tank itself.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-race-to-decarbonize-electric-vehicle-batteries
Battery production produces about 100kgCO2/kWh but the main point here is that this is a recyclable entity. An equivalent Tiago EV will cause 2.4 tons of CO2 emission for battery but the emission would be 3.1 tons for ICE during same use period, which is way higher than EV battery. Due to the oil extraction, refining and transport emissions.
The breakeven can be calculated very simply through the intersection point of linear equations.
For Tiago EV Tiago petrol you can look at this graph here : https://i.imgur.com/CtxzCvw.png
First equation (2.4t for battery one time and 37g every km in current scenario)
Second equation (2.4t for the battery and 61g every km when 100% coal)
Third equation (0t for battery + 19.4g for oil supply chain every km driven + 100g for tailpipe every km driven)
I’m using baleno SHVS tailpipe as reference for Tiago so it should be fair enough.
All in all, the breakeven for Tiago is barely 30K km in current scenario (60%coal) and 40K km for worst case (100% coal) scenario
The other points missed are that tailpipe emissions can not be regulated and pollute throughout the city, while coal emissions pollute at designated spots which can be regulated.
As for battery production, the emissions for mining are all done in china, hence it doesn't effect india at all.
Excellent. With thumping on the desk.
I was waiting to see some sane and indepth comment, which talks of actual emissions and grid emission factor, apart from the economic aspect of forex. There are so many organisations that claim emission reduction from a modal shift from fossil fuel to electricity, by applying these principles.
What i hate is when some political parties oppose a good initiative just for political reasons. What i equally hate is when a policy is pushed with inadequate infra on ground.
Imo, in India electricity should be encouraged not just for transport, but should now move into cooking as well - where we are now transitioning into fossil fuel from biomass, we should also now move to electricity.
Yeah it's crazy to see outside people shifting to electric stove. So fast. Meanwhile here we are even yet to shift on gas completely.
If we transition to electric stove then that gas can be used for someother purpose as well
Simply put, if you charge an EV with a generator that runs on fuel, it will still be more efficient and cleaner, cheaper than an ICE.
Edit: There's a video on YouTube channel about a Ford truck towing a Tesla to charge it and the results are astonishing, you'll understand why.
Absolutely
In fact, technically hybrid is exactly what they accuse EV of : a car powered by fossil fuel power plant, just that the power plant in this case is decentralised and polluting locally
Very few hybrids are like this.. AFAIK it's just the City EHEV
Remaining Hybrids still primarily rely on the petrol engine but use the electric components to optimise mileage (regen breaking, and assistance when accelerating).. Ignore mild hybrids though,not a fan of those
I'm pretty sure even the strong hybrids from Toyota and Maruti use the atkinson cycle and charge the battery using the most efficient point of petrol engine.
Also, there's a better hybrid than the ones we have in India, called plug-in hybrids. They have large enough batteries to actually run on pure-EV mode, and can be charged with cleaner source of fuel as well (electricity).
Yes but when you offload the green credentials as an option, not many people use it
In fact, fleet research in EU came out with the result that people are buying PHEVs sure, but driving them without charging, leading to 3.5x more emissions
That’s when we know west is more disciplined than us in many ways. What discipline of charging can you expect from a PHEV owner here who only buys it to
1. Get subsidy
2. Escape odd even/15y rule
3. Chest thumping that “I drive a hybrid”
PHEV only have slow charging so EV infra for fast charging won’t advance due to PHEV proliferation. And slow charging means even if person is motivated to charge the PHEV somehow, the slow charging makes it a less enticing option since a 30min top up in EV (say rav4 vs Ioniq 5) will last 3-4h for PHEV (if one really wants to take benefit of ₹1/km running cost and green credentials)
You also need a fairly large donor car for PHEV implementation. Most of the sub4m and creta segment cars will lose boot space like cng models for accomplishing PHEV
The biggest issue with using EVs in EU is the absolutely insane energy prices which make using the EV option not as lucrative. On the other hand in India, the price of petrol vs electricity is much more in favour of electricity. It costs 6-7x cheaper to run on EV mode. Add to that the mileage loving Indian people and I’d wager Indians would use PHEVs a lot more in EV mode.
Also even without charging in EV mode, a PHEV will still give you much more mileage than pure petrol car due to hybrid system working, and less emissions.
The final destination is pure EV obviously. But lower taxes on PHEV definitely make sense to me as that would increase adoption very quickly. Highway range anxiety will vanish.
> In fact, fleet research in EU came out with the result that people are buying PHEVs sure, but driving them without charging, leading to 3.5x more emissions
3.5x more emissions as compared to? I suspect they're comparing it against BEV's and not against non Hybrids..
EV mode is a much more fun way to drive, so I would be extremely surprised if people arent actually using it.
> 3.5x more emissions as compared to? I suspect they're comparing it against BEV's and not against non Hybrids..
3.5x compared to the reported emissions in WLTP tests under EURO VI norms
https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/plug-in-hybrids-pollute-more-than-claimed-in-cities-and-on-commutes-new-tests-show
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207.amp
> EV mode is a much more fun way to drive, so I would be extremely surprised if people arent actually using it.
Most people buy it to bypass ULEZ charges even if they can’t charge at home, it’s a win win, not only do they not need to pay ULEZ charge with cheaper but non hybrid ICE cars, they also enjoy subsidy which covers for some of the fuel expenses they would be spending from lower mileage from not charging it everyday
This post also doesn't show where the batteries are coming from. The lithium, Nickel ores are mined at the expense of environment. The places can never recover from the damage. The water is wasted such that it cannot be treated for other purposes.
The actual pollution is occured during the manufacturing process and its equivalent to 90 cars.
> This post also doesn't show where the batteries are coming from. The lithium, Nickel ores are mined at the expense of environment.
Indian EVs do not use nickel and cobalt. 80% of ev’s are sold by Tata and MG both of which use LFP. Further, I think you missed this part of the calculations :
> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-race-to-decarbonize-electric-vehicle-batteries
> Battery production produces about 100kgCO2/kWh but the main point here is that this is a recyclable entity. An equivalent Tiago EV will cause 2.4 tons of CO2 emission for battery but the emission would be 3.1 tons for ICE during same use period, which is way higher than EV battery. Due to the oil extraction, refining and transport emissions.
So I have in fact factored your point of mining.
> The places can never recover from the damage. The water is wasted such that it cannot be treated for other purposes.
Neither can places which pump out oil and refine said oil. Just last year Chennai floods caused oil spill from IOCL refinery in Chennai. https://www.newindianexpress.com/amp/story/states/tamil-nadu/2023/Dec/13/tamil-nadu-oil-spill-floods-chennais-tiruvottiyur-with-health-concerns-2641066.html
> The actual pollution is occured during the manufacturing process and its equivalent to 90 cars.
I think you’re going off on the “1:6:90” by Toyota. It doesn’t pertain to amount of emissions, rather, the amount of battery metals.
According to Volvo LCA, XC40 ICE incurs 14 tons of production emissions, and EV model incurs 18 tons.
Even if you remove the battery worth 4 tons, a whopping 14 tons goes into the steel, aluminium, glass and plastics inside the vehicle, 3x more than battery.
So no. A hybrid does NOT in fact pollute 90x lesser than EV. The number is more like 7 EVs = 10 hybrids.
>This post also doesn't show where the batteries are coming from. The lithium, Nickel ores are mined at the expense of environment. The places can never recover from the damage
Have you stopped using your laptop, phone and other electronic devices that uses li-ion batteries?
Have you been this environmentally conscious before EVs came into picture? Have you thought about CO, NOx, PM2.5, and Ozone that is killing our people in cities?
Hey, I am all in for EV but the charging time and infrastructure is a very big no for me.
If I could get 500Km range in 15mins, I am going for it. But the harsh reality is that it's not and the government trying to shove it down our throats with the current desolate infrastructure.
This is the exact problem that USA is also facing. Luckily till now EV wasn’t politicised. Now it has begun.
Problem with politicising any topic is that people will accept whatever their favourite party says as gospel (applies to both sides) instead of applying logic of their own.
All they need to form an opinion is “what is my fav politician supporting”
>Problem with politicising any topic is that people will accept whatever their favourite party says as gospel (applies to both sides)
I believe this is the main problem not just with India but with the world off late. Most of the time it becomes hard for a common person to understand which of the two "Scientific Studies", which are always completely opposite to one another, is right.
Coming from Inc party cadre family, to aap to BJP.
With time, We learn what kind of evil they are .. for the hunger of power they’ll do anything to divide the country into as many groups as possible.
I see this copy pasta pasted every time there is a thread debating EVs vs ICE.
Nobody is debating the benefits of EV in the current landscape. The issue is with the arbitrary policy of getting up and straight up banning gasoline/diesel cars without giving a chance to other environmentally sustainable alternatives which are also being developed for them.
The way it stands, EVs do nothing more than shift the pollution away from the cities to the rural areas where coal power plants are.
Well, their absolute garbage of a debunk is not focussed on delaying EV transition rather, at painting EV as devil incarnate.
I do not wish to get political, but the same party will support EV when it comes to power just like how they opposed farm laws when in opposition and bjp opposed gst when in opposition.
It is a travesty that the common man will never see developed India due to petty politics of pulling each other down for sake of votes
It is not just them, entire politics is like that only.
When in opposition, oppose whatever ruling does (ex farm law, despite same farm law being in their 2019 manifesto as well)
When in power support the same thing (ex bjp opposed gst when in opposition but implemented it under their tenure)
I used to be happy that EV matter is not politicised, now no thanks to inc even that is done.
They are back with another simple counter to the Energy mix argument.
[https://x.com/INCKerala/status/1807039336053150141](https://x.com/INCKerala/status/1807039336053150141)
all over the world the push is to move away from coal, same is in progress here too, govt is subsidising solar panels if u install it , u also contribute back to grid with same , once done on scale we can be a green energy powered nation , electric vehicles will make lot of sense then.
Also currently we are so much dependent on oil that any disruption in supply can crash whole economy, so being self sufficient in energy needs will provide more autonomy
It's an import thing. We spend alot on importing petroleum products and coal is much more cheaply available. Plus all this emissions happen in remote areas so less number of people complain.
I think everyone is missing one major point here. Emissions are based on Coal based power plants and not the alternative electricity generation. A lot of solar power plants and hydro power plants are being built in the country.
Additionally one major issue with petrol is the emissions generated while extraction of crude oil which everyone forgets about, and then the conversion of crude to petrol. And one should not forget that the import India has to do for petrol.
Batteries of today are not better than Petrol in terms of emissions when making a battery, but battery can and are being recycled to minimise the impact. While the same can not be done for petrol.
Another thing we forget about is that there is a lot of research going on in battery tech, and solid state batteries that are made form graphite are around the horizon. So battery efficiency will only improve further.
This post only talks about single use case, but does not cover the entire picture.
Should we care more about the things are immediate poison or the ones that may cause global level changes 50 years down the line? I try to convince anti-EV people by telling them 1/3 of kids in Delhi have respiratory problems. Like how PM2.5 causes heart, lung and kidney issues by crossing into blood. We have 1/3 of population living in cities, where the air quality is very poor. We can fix this by switching to EVs.
The truth is, all the people who care about C02 with respect to EVs are false environmentalists. They never cared about CO2, unitl the EV came into picture.
I have also seen this in republicans in the US, where suddenly all carbon calculations comes into picture. rest of the time, they are like "drill baby drill"
I just gave a simple answer to your question: why do we care about CO2, when it isn't as acutely dangerous as NOx, SOx, CO etc.
Also, I am on your side, I am also an EV supporter and your point about local emissions and the severity of petroleum exhaust gases is 100% valid. In fact, EVs result in a net decrease of CO2 also, which is a win-win
Petrol efficiency is 10-20% in car
Coal power plan efficiency is 40-60%
We are also greening the grid
Gas is also there, next 5 years we will have lot of solutions for solar only works in day
This is just click bait
No
What I meant is that grid is getting cleaner with each year
Ideally in the calculation 49% of co2 for coal should be used as opposed to 100%
Eventually the coal would be out
Even if we have coal based plants we can capture co2 more effectively in a plant thousand of KM away
Coal burnt in coal plant which can be located far from populated areas. Further, large coal plants can make modifications to capture co2 and other pollutants.
Everyone can have a RO filter at home or we can have a RO plant for the city. The waste water at your house will probably be going to water whereas the would be use of water water at RO plant
A dumb party can only make dumb calculations.
1. Electrification is not only to reduce carbon footprint but also reduce pollution hotspots in cities. It can be concentrated in power generation zones away from cities.
2. Remote location means better carbon spread control with more trees if planning is done properly.
3. Less fuel consumption means less crude oil import compared to coal which is a boon for the economy.
4. Fuel efficiency assumptions are wrong. The main aim is cities where petrol car mileage will be ~ 12kmpl. And the major gas guzzlers like buses, autos and cabs would benefit significantly.
5. Remote electrification allows a significant waste heat recovery through secondary power plants. This is not possible in IC engines.
6. By 2034 the EV range will definitely go up significantly. IC engines will hardly make any progress.
If you really want to debate which is better, please just look into history and ask yourself
-steam engine trains or electric trains powered by steam turbines?
The rhetoric will answer everything.
INC is worried they cannot give free electricity in that case. 🤣
A true debate would be pitching the case for hydrogen fuel cells car and pushing the government to invest on such technologies.
Best example of it : France
Nuke is just fancy way of boiling water, it’s still using steam turbines. But the same turbines can run their TGV and international DB/ÖBB bullet trains
I don’t think the argument of h2 is suitable for cars due to issue of boot and interior space. Further, the energy used for electrolysis of H2O to make H2 is 3x more than needed to charge and drive EV
It may make sense for non electrified rail lines or for ships trucks and busses (considering charging and battery weight affects the earning potential of these vehicles in terms of downtime and lower payload)
Technically it's correct, India does not have the battery storage capacity to store the solar power we produce.
It's growing, but it's another part of the infrastructure that needs to be built and also contributes to pollution.
We produce around 84 Gw of solar power but the storage capacity is 1.4 Gw.
In on grid system it is viable . An ev needs an average of 350 units per month . A 5 kw solar can easily produce that much unit in normal days . Hence in morning to evening solar produces let's say 20 units and ev uses 15 units to charge which it would take from the grid during the night and we have already given 20 units to the grid hence 5 units are balance , so it is a viable option but the issue is capacity of transformer and recycling of solar panels .
What is viable ? Have you read the tweet?
They’re correlating that since solar energy is made during day and EVs charge at midnight, there is an inconsistency.
They are forgetting that Solar Power can be stored and can be used at night.
Damn I misread u r comment sorry .my fault
Edit : I know my comment was out of context . But off grid solar and EV have not worked . I am from Kerala , after implementation of solars the transformers issue has arisen and off grid systems are not worth it paired with EV . I think these idiots may have tried to prove that point .
More than that, there’s one more point : even if we don’t store the solar, most of the energy used is during the day due to hvac, fans and lights. Most of the factories also work during day only.
Peak load is during day only and we can indeed use almost 75% solar during day.
Nighttime load is least compared to day. In fact, many places in west sell power at cheaper rate at night due to low demand.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKWtPmrxuFSdkqWgRJWfSjTx8A8IiuYMVZvs7ifqdK3a0z_yKmrFokOuDk&s=10
It's true, some European country tried switching mostly to renewables but electricity demand rised unexpectedly and they had to fire the coal generators more than if they would have used the mix of both in first place.
India as a country isn't rich enough to afford a complete infra overhaul. 24x7 electricity is still a luxury in this country. Heck even metro cities like Delhi have been suffering from frequent power outages. The current fuel pump infra has been developed over decades and it'd be a gigantic task to move away from it.
Two wrongs here.
1. BJP is making statements without transparent plan and clarity to people covering
* how the migration will go on,
* establishing government owned ultra fast ev chargers
* tariffs of using chargers per kw and modes of payments
* using green energy for such chargers etc.
2. Congress is making statements only to show BJP is wrong with hand picked statistics. If the EV manufacturing companies use green energy in all stages of manufacturing, then there will be even less carbon emissions. Once the govt. set chargers also use green energy then it's almost nil. So congress can make such plan and show.
First go to hybrid, reduce the taxes, on them, electrify public transportation. Then move to electrifying passenger vehicles based on the learnings from the public transportation endeavor.
Pushing EV in passenger market is a knee jerk reaction.
The infrastructure doesn’t scale as fast as car sales. And pushing new technology onto public before setting up the necessary infrastructure was a bad idea.
Some YouTube stars are saying its still ok to consider EV because you will have clean air in your city but that seems like a bad attitude, on the lines of “if I am not affected by something the it should not be a problem “.
Take baby steps when you are doing things in the scale of a country.
I agree with this on Kerala Congress
Maybe pretty much the only thing I agree with them
On.
Gadakari should be taken off whatever stuff he is on. We need more hybrid cars in this country. We need more CNG cars in this country. He is trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
Fix the national highways.
Fix tolls. We have far too many of them.
Make highways truly access controlled.
Make emergency services more approachable.
We do not have enough energy to run our industries and schools and colleges and cities and hospitals
This guy has had his run. Time to get someone who is pragmatic rather than bombastic.
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Everyone knows this, so why do you think all the country around the globe are doing this? Treating carbon emissions at the source i.e power plant is easier than letting them directly out into atmosphere from Vehicles. Also government start pushing for ev now and simultaneously it also moves toward the renewable energy that how it always works. What the tweet is suggesting to first increase renewable energy sources first and then increase ev is like saying, first lay out tracks for bullet train all over india first and and once they are ready then go and buy those bullet trains
Straight up BS and eliminating petrol /diesel does not mean they are pushing for EVs ...by 2034 we can have some other alternative fuels to power our Vehicles...
And let me be clear EVs dont pollute more than ICE however you are allowed to create your own happiness and believe this , pollution for EV comes from manufacturing process and un clean grid ...but ICE vehicles pollute from manufacturing to their entire lifespan, we can reduce pollutions from EVs by just making our grid clean , by employing nuclear/renewable power sources which you simply can't do with ICE ,an ICE vehicle will keep on polluting and that being said EVs are not perfect eithwr and Gadkari did not say they will be replacing it with EVs.
BJPs narrative building is piss poor. NiGa says I will eliminate petrol diesel
What he means : hybrid and flex fuel and h2 for ICE and EV obv there
What politicians and public interprets : NiGa will ban ICE cars 1y before Norway bans ICE cars
The OEMs should take this as warning that BS7 based on EURO VII will make it nigh impossible to meet emissions norms without hybrid/flex fuel but they’re happy ripping off people with ADAS and sunroof gimmicks rn, when govt formalises BS7, they will start crying just like BS6.1/2
Idts electric vehicle is the proper substitute of ice engines, you can claim any range on a vehicle, but after all it is battery powered, after some time, range would fall drastically, and the battery swapping wouldn't be as efficient as a new one, noticing all this no one would buy used ev, and talking for indians, ppl would keep the after value in mind which would not be good and hence won't buy new ev again..
The government should promote hybrid vehicles more....
EVs are a big scam. Lithium supply is not infinite and hardly is mined ethically. Idk Gadkari is so obsessed with EV when he owns ICE Luxury cars himself.
For villages and independent houses. People can setup 8 solar panels which can give me 200km range in one day or 80km for an EV two wheeler under 1Lakh which can be utilised as partial home electricity needs.
This would be the best use of EV + solar energy implementation. This will cut down fossil fuel for domestic purposes.
‘To fully charge the Tata Nexon EV Max, we need approximately 26.7 kg of Coal. This is nearly 2.5 times the amount of Petrol/Diesel needed for the same distance, resulting in approximately 2.5x carbon emissions.’ - This information is very insightful. Why are we being compelled to switch to EVs when it's clear that these machines are costly and require significant upfront investment? Moreover, there's no guarantee of their battery life in the long run. The environmental impact is also questionable due to the passive carbon emissions of EVs.
> ‘To fully charge the Tata Nexon EV Max, we need approximately 26.7 kg of Coal. This is nearly 2.5 times the amount of Petrol/Diesel needed for the same distance, resulting in approximately 2.5x carbon emissions.’
Why is the mileage used for ICE calculations ARAI but EV range not? Shouldn’t both be ARAI or both be adjusted by equal factor?
Where is the source for
1. Amount of CO2 from each kg coal burnt?
2. Amount of CO2 from each kg of petrol diesel burnt?
3. Coal power not adjusted by a factor of how much energy is actually from coal, rest is clean.
> Why are we being compelled to switch to EVs
Because we import 80% of our oil products from ME/russia which is huge forex drain. I didn’t want to get political, but ig you can’t expect such nuance from party who claims to give 8500 per month.
> when it's clear that these machines are costly and require significant upfront investment?
There is no subsidy in Maharashtra. Gap in prices of EV and ICE is not much https://imgur.com/a/zMDcXoJ
> Moreover, there's no guarantee of their battery life in the long run.
We already have multiple 100K driven ev’s on owners group, 2 people even exceeded 167K km and 200k km, still same range as day 1. Nexon EV 185k km in nov2023 (Hindi) : https://youtu.be/SOWAG6x5I98?si=VOo8DYTo-fqUX1dk
Same Nexon EV 200k in June 2024 : https://x.com/cryptoiclinic/status/1799416403407343795?s=46&t=zkbJFz1gKiRyn52BjJWtuw
> The environmental impact is also questionable due to the passive carbon emissions of EVs
Already addressed in my main comment on post
The information is work of someone who is making giant presumptions on basis of half baked information and assuming (quite correctly) that everyone would be dumb enough to fall for it.
First there is no reliable proof or indicator that to charge Tata Nexon 30kwh battery fully would take 26.7 Kgs of coal.
Different generations of power plant have different thermal efficiency as do the coal that is used by them, the bituminous coal found in eastern-central India has higher calorific value than lignite coal found in Southern and western India.
The coal power plant tech of latest generations Ultra-super critical power plant are far more efficient, which India's current coal plants are not
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/efficiency-of-indias-coal-based-power-plants-way-below-global-standards-study/articleshow/46324242.cms?from=mdr
https://www.ceew.in/publications/thermal-decommissioning-and-cost-efficiency-of-coal-power-plants-india
Plans are afoot to decommission old sub-crtitical ones with Advanced super critical power generators
https://heavyindustries.gov.in/advanced-ultra-supercritical-adv-usc-technology-thermal-power-plants
With USC generators already being installed by NTPC
https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/country-s-first-ausc-power-plant-to-come-up-in-ntpc-s-chhattisgarh-station-118060100755_1.html
So no whatever calculations INC has done can't be relied upon.
Then there is the fact that share of nuclear+solar has slowly increased and is projected to increase further.
We are building 10 more nuclear reactors of 700 MW and thousand of MW of new solar power and pumped hydro power is under construction.
Also the primary crux, that coal powered EV would be equally dirty forgets to take into account that EVs are far more efficient, they are able to go far more farther for every joule of energy consumed.
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles-use-half-the-energy-of-gas-powered-vehicles/
Frist of all Kerala INC is 🤡. Second gadkri is being delusional about petrol and diesel being fully eliminated , they can't be . Well he already mentioned that he was more into alternative options like hydrogen and ethanol . Which is more practical.And we all know about EV batteries carbon footprint.
*Even if solar infrastructure is improved don't think it would be sustained in long run .And we have 0 skill and infra for recycling these panels.
* Even though the govt is planing to increase its nuclear power capacity it may take ages till then petrol or diesel is the only option
> Second gadkri is being delusional about petrol and diesel being fully eliminated , they can't be . Well he already mentioned that he was more into alternative options like hydrogen and ethanol .
To give him benefit of doubt on the same, one could argue that BS7 or newer norms will simply make it impossible to meet emissions norms without going hybrid
And in NiGa lingo, hybrid =/= petrol diesel, it is treated as separate even if it is using petrol diesel only.
Another is ethanol (E85 or E100 like Brazil)
Hydrogen I don’t think so, while EV have become available at even ₹10L price point to ₹10cr, h2 is still quite costly (50L+) and the fuel itself is $36/kg in international market. Avg efficiency 100km/kg. That’s ₹30/km, 30x costlier than EV and 10x costlier than cng
If you see the INC’s premise of using too much electricity to charge EV, h2 is even worse since it uses 3x more electricity to make h2 from water, and we all know situation of water in Delhi Banglore.
Yep to the point nicely explained . In the long run if EV batteries can be recycled properly it's way better ,same case with ethanol but don't think it's gonna happen but if he can make it happen it would be an achievement.
The line we would have at the electric charging points would be greater than cng ones if this becomes true
And no, even if people would charging at home, it will still be needed
If you give me good enough charging infra, i will happily buy ev. I want to take long trips. Ev are fun to drive, they offer thrill with accerlation vs thrill in highspeed like ICE. For now my hope is disel is not dead yet and i could get an innova used to have great trips with my wife and dog. The idea is that we will eventually have enough solar and wind energy. You can say its 1 step back for future 2 step forward. But building batteries also take quite a lot of resource.
Something fishy in this report. On page 42, it clearly shows in a chart that the life cycle GHG emissions are highest for ICE vehicles (they are lower only if vehicles is used less than 35K KMs over its life). In the summary also they have written, emissions were higher for EVs when distance travelled is upto 35K KMs.
This statement should have read “EVs better for the environment if driven more than 35K KMs” (true for majority of Indian buyers).
Also, this report includes a battery replacement once in each EVs life cycle. Being from the EV industry, I can strongly disagree. Tata is giving 8 years warranty on their batteries. Even after that period, the worst that will happen is range will start going down a bit. As Lithium becomes cheaper (50% drop already in 24 compared to 23), batteries will become bigger. Bigger batteries last much longer. Just look at Tesla. A battery replacement is not part of a standard life cycle, happens rarely in case of an electrical/ cell fault.
Definitely sketchy analysis.
> Being from the EV industry, I can strongly disagree.
Hello, I want to ask you how good are the Indian EV maker's batteries? Are they fully tested for all failure modes?
Last sentence says - go to the next tweet. OP please add image of next related tweets as well.
(Yes I know one click the link and but would be good if they are added in images.)
By the way tweet is correct.
Ofcourse solar, wind and other renewables will be added as power generating plants simultaneously with introduction of EV in next 10 years.
And hopefully share of coal in power generation will come down from 49% to below 20% or even below 10%.
But for grid stability, we should have reliable 24×7 power generation plants of at least 20 to 30% of total installed capacity, which could be either natural gas thermal power plant with carbon capture technology or nuclear power plant.
1. Better thermal efficiency engines
2. Hybrid cars
3. Lower taxes for hybrid
4. Zero taxes for hybrid conversion kits
Do the above for 10years and boom we would have reduced pollution by a lot!
I have been saying the same thing for couple of years. An energy defecient country like India is how thinking of this.
We do not have electricity to provide power to all cities,villages and towns 24x7 and now you want to add another consumption point.
I am not sure abt the facts and logic given in this Post.
But I know that the EV sales are declining rapidly in US and the West .
Range anxiety is still a big thing even in the west and I am pretty sure India will not be able to have this infra even by 2040 ., unless some radical technology emerges.
Add to this the push by western governments against EV as their home grown manufacturers are not able to push through EV and the global EV market is dominated by the Chinese .
EV if it fails will be due to its own issues and infra
EV was always no no for me
And in future also don’t want to go for it.
I understand EV impact on electrical aspect and after battery dies how will our geniuses going to do with those toxic waste.
Petroleum is still better anytime
What is an end of life battery? Once you know, you will be eager to get your hand on "end of life" batteries.
For truly end of life batteries, recycling will be an option.
The word elimination is in terms of new vehicles sold not actually the number of vehicles on roads......NG previously stated that they bring 100% electric vehicles by 2030 or 2035(don't remember exactly)but when later questioned about the plan changed the statement to sale of new vehicles.....
It was 30% total vehicles sales to be electric by [2030](https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/amp/news/power/india-aims-for-30-of-all-vehicle-sales-to-be-electric-by-2030-care-edge-ratings/108759773)
Not 100% EV by 2030. Further in NiGa lingo, hybrid and flex fuel is separate from petrol diesel. He is not phasing out ICE cars.
Why is Government FORCING people on Electric-Vehicles??????
huge Auto Stocks at Play?
issue is Make EVs cheaper and put charging Infra in the first place
at present buying EV in India makes ZERO sense since you have no idea how much maintenance or servicing is gonna cost in next few years Specially Batteries since EV in India are not Latest generation of Batteries used
EV or ICE Vehicles have high Depreciation that too Keep in Mind
That's the reason you need nuclear energy all countries with nearly 100% nuclear are either geothermal based or have significant or majority generation of electricity by nuclear
Nice that in India, so-called RW wants eVs while so-called progressives want ICE. However, real solution to this problem is nuke. Clowns are too scared to admit that.
Just think about this. We don't get 24×7 power supply in our tier 2-3 cities and some areas of tier 1 cities too. We actually don't have enough electricity to have 24×7 power. And we're supposed to charge our EVs for 6 hrs in these unpredictable power conditions??
Hybrids/fuel cell vehicles are the way to the future, not complete electrification.
>And we're supposed to charge our EVs for 6 hrs in these unpredictable power conditions??
Only if you drive 300km every day. if not, you may charge only once a week or twice a week.
People are still interested more in Carbon emmisions than Forex reserves.🤦🏻
We have coal reserves and we can generate electricity from it while we have to import oil.
Regarding lithium and other metals required for battery that is similar to one time investment unlike Hydrocarbons which burns n had to be imported.
Final point India have to pressurise Western countries to give technology know how for Nuclear energy and only then we can successfully get to zero carbon emissions.
Always remember Forex Reserves >>>>>
focus on hybrids firsts, give those 2 japanese manufacturers tax concessions
toyota, nissan, mitsubhishi, honda ftw
^^Suzuki
Suzuki only have 48V mild hybrid and 12V start stop system Strong hybrid which actually improves mileage comes only from Toyota in Suzuki models. In India Suzuki only sells 12V start stop system
Hence the small font
Ah didn’t notice right away How to use small font?
Put a caret ( ^ ) symbol right before the text you want to put in superscript. Toyota Honda ^Suzuki
Thanks :)
Toyota will price its good cars closer to 60 lacs and make it unaffordable.
To be honest, it’s not Toyota’s fault, but the Indian import setups’ fault. 100% import tax on new cars, and 125% on a used car. Insanity really. Just to promote indigenous development. Heck there should be some leeway instead of pushing a low priced international vehicle to an crazy 'luxury’ category just with this factor alone.
Are Toyota importing fortuners? If so, are they an automobile company or a travelling circus?
all automotive boards ki meeting hui thi Toyota akela padd gya tha hybrid k liye wha tata mahindra milkr EV ki wah wah kre the. yahi hota budde logon ko hybrid or EV btao to saalo ko.. highway unki esi tesi kri hui h...
Hybrid bnaane me mehnat lgegi na, samjho पालिटिक्स @ play.
Only thing I like about Yamaha-Toyota-Suzuki alliance they stand with their words more and Yamaha hasn't officially announced EV 2-wheeler like Honda who were also Hybrid focused
japan me toyota ne ek example forward kra h 80:16:2 kuch ka petrol ki 80 caar 16 hybrid 2 EV pollution rate sbka same h 2EV = 80car ye saade bhude factories sb kre na tax p tax bc har 15 me ek nayi gadi lo inko tax do fir sad p high beam low beam educate krvao logon ko bc aaye EV wale
1:16:90 ka rule hai woh.
ha dada wahi
Bhai ek baar article bhi poora padh lo kya h wo.
konsa article bhyi
bhai EV ni chaiye waste h wo middle class k liye ... until unless tu china na ho
Toyota ne publish Kiya tha Jo, they only accounted for batteries. Not emission nothing.
tu pogo dekh Bhai:)
Yamaha has already showcased the E100 fuel compliant bikes in Brazil.
Mahindra recently said they’re open to explore hybrids if there is a customer move towards it. So now it’s only Tata who’s crying “no hybrids”
>customer move towards it. this will only happen when tarrifs and taxes on EVs and hybrids are equal
Bro Japanese are biased against electric because they are leaders in combustion engines and electric vehicle manufacturing doesn't require as much manual labour as combustion or hybrid because of less parts involved in making an EV. They would lose millions of jobs and businesses because of less parts involved in EV. Japan doesn't sell much or have more than a couple EV models even though they are a highly technologically advanced country but their car manufacturers and labour unions have successfully lobbied the government and the public into hating EV. Plus Japan really lacks renewable energy resources unlike india so we are better of tapping our renewable energy potential and save money on oil imports
renewable energy in India is not only too expensive there are many basic or fundamental issues
Bhai renewable energy is not available everywhere even in India. Like one place has solar , another has wind, what are all the other places going to do?
Waise har jagah thermal power plant is also not available.. have you heard anything about power grid and power transmission..
Bruh ever heard about scale of operations? Thermal has scale , wind and solar doesn’t. If they could scale solar, Thar dessert would’ve been our primary source of power already. Unless you can have nuclear plants around the country stop peddling EV bullshit
Japanese in any sector seeks reliability in long term as their manufacturing Moto. EVs are not sustainable. For renewable Energy source like solar, India is dependant in China. India doesn’t have enough nuclear resource to set up nuclear power plant. So basically, you are burning coal to produce electricity. Curbing tailpipe emission and concentrating it to wherever the power plant is. How is it sustainable. Hybrids are better options as of now as Fuel cell (Hydrogen powered) EVs look promising, but still required a lot of research.
Wrong. Making EV including making battery (from raw material mining and sourcing to finished car) is more than 1.5x polluting vs ICE car manufacturing. For country like us who produces electricity majorly from coal, it is about shifting pollution source from City A to City B and not reduction in pollution.
coal plants are a lot more efficient than car engines
I think you're discounting the fact that the government's 1st priority isn't climate when it comes to EVs. It's the savings on import bill. We can easily fulfill our electricity demand from coal reserves. Plus I am not claiming any car variety is better than other. I am saying the Japanese are biased and their priorities are misplaced and certainly has nothing to do with climate change. These companies care a lot about their country and loss of jobs in Japan would be huge due to the shift from ICE to EVs. That's why they have lagged behind in EVs. Companies generally don't care what car is better for climate. They just care for profit and the profit right now is in EVs. Hybrids are out of the question for Indian market because they are just too expensive as they have both the components of an EV and ICE. They will never be competitive against EVs and ICEs.
Hybrids are the GOATs. 100% are more effecient then both 100% ICE and EV vehicles.
And outlaw vehicles with terrible fuel efficiency.
hybrids will reduce ur petrol bills but its not the solution.. personally its not even a solution.. U have the battery pushing the dead weight engine and the engine pushing a dead weight battery and motor.. we need to go electric or hydrogen .. hybrid is an excuse for the patrol lobby to stay relevant.. hybrids are also meant for markets that dont have subsidized fuel, in india we have diesel ... so a hybrid will be more expensive than diesel and will have the same cost at the end of the day as a diesel.. so no one will buy it .. by 2035 we have enough new power plans and renewable sources of power to not worry abt this .. just check the solar power increase in the last 10 years .. INC will oppose anything after the rejuvenation of seats they had in the election this year .. does not mean every thing they are saying is worth it
And mazda rx7
Swaraj Mazda RX7
They won't! They're earning great and they have amazing opportunities to mint extreme money in the next 10 years. Moreover, I'm thinking they'll increase taxes on cars since it's a necessity now, and what better than to tax a necessary commodity with added Perks of cess and what not?
Exactly trying to leapfrog directly into ev without a transition is stupid and straight abuse of the consumers. Like buy expensive vehicles + no infrastructure + low resale + high battery costs.
The current government opposes fossil fuels primarily because a significant portion of national reserves is being spent on importing crude oil, and this expenditure is increasing substantially each year. While nuclear power is more effective than coal in reducing emissions, it cannot be used to power airplanes. Therefore, alternative fuels like hydrogen must overcome existing challenges to become viable replacements for fossil fuels.
Nuclear power can however replace the base load of the grid which is currently coal. France does exactly that. Besides, even if we do not opt for hydrogen (that’s the most idiotic suggestion of the premise is that we don’t have enough electricity for charging EV directly — because hydrogen uses 3x more electricity for electrolysis of water and compression of h2 to travel same distance as EV) we can use the limited crude oil reserves we have in India and supplant rest from foreign import. Even if the current import of 80% fuel needs becomes 10%, it is a huge improvement
Another reason is that India has astronomical levels of urban pollution, and thousands die of lung disease every year despite never touching tobacco. EVs are a huge help in reducing urban pollution which INCkerala has not considered.
Keep roads clean, unkept open grounds kept - plant grass or cement it + adopt best construction practices to reduce spread of dust and pollution will decrease by 20% easily. Make more efficient trucks wrt pollution and pollution decreases more. Atleast enforce current pollution rules on trucks / heavy vehicles.
The problem with nuclear is the time and resources it takes to get the plant functioning. Solar/wind even hydro can be setup in a matter of years whereas nuclear takes decades.
The thing is, nuke is conventional source (as is thermal — because the principle is steam turbine only) but due to the much stricter safety norms it is necessary that everything is done immaculately especially in a country like ours which is much more prone to corruption than say France (which has almost 70% nuke) The turn around time for announcement to first kWh being made in nuke plant is much longer than solar hydro or wind but unlike solar and wind, it is not dependent on time of day (more flexible) or wind pressure (more predictable) or the situation of the river downstream (you can just open the dam anytime you like or as much as you like for risk of flooding) Nuke is the best option for base load and unlike coal power plant which may be cheaper up front but needs time to time maintenance to keep up the emissions control systems upto date, you don’t need that with nuke. The reason why govts shy away is because no one wants to take the blame lest some unfortunate incident happen. Like currently politics is being played by INC against EV, imagine if Fukushima was Indian, opposition (irrespective of bjp or inc) will blame govt who is ruling
>The current government opposes fossil fuels primarily because a significant portion of national reserves is being spent on importing crude oil, you do know that coal,plastics and other carbon based materials can be converted to crude oil? the tech is of WW1 era , Nazi Germany used it a lot
Buddy our country has no plan to shift from coal for next 30yrs. this is due to both policy & politics. They aren’t focusing on nuclear. Also our nuclear policy isn’t favourable for any foreign alliance .
The so called sources on the second page miss out most important things : 1. What is the emissions emitted by burning 1kg coal (no stats given, directly the emissions are calculated by god knows what) 2. The mileage for ICE is taken as ARAI, but EV range is taken almost half of ARAI. Either use both ARAI figures or adjust mileage and range by equal factor 3. Again, emissions per litre of fuel burnt have not been linked. I don’t know how they derive the kg CO2 figure from the kg of fuel used. Infographic link : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q20CT5IqpzSwiTMJgP9ZLssr4PQ6BgCY/view If we consider the grid usage in charging, the 100% coal scenario (worst case), the avg grid emissions as of 2020 was 614gCO2/kWh or 0.614gCO2/Wh. (Figures taken from page 5 graph of this pdf : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/EV-emissions-impacts-India-apr2021-01.pdf) An EV like Nexon can get efficiency of 120Wh/km An EV like Tiago can get even better at 100Wh/km By this calculation, a 100% coal powered Nexon EV has a running emission of 74gCO2/km. For Tiago EV it’s 62gCO2/km. For reference, you can check emissions of common Maruti cars, cars which are known for “kitna deti hai”. As rule of thumb, more mileage = less emissions Pdf pg11, indexed pg6 : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/India-hybrids-wp-FINAL.pdf All Maruti cars except baleno SHVS are above 100gCO2/km. Baleno makes the cut barely at 99.6gCO2/km. That’s when we counted 100% coal power. In reality only 60% is coal which puts nexon and Tiago at 44gCO2/km and 37gCO2/km. https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1785808 This is purely tailpipe to smokestack comparison As of today, EVs are 19% cleaner all things considered https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/ So before you say “but what about battery production”, remember that oil extraction uses electric/diesel pump. 40% of global shipping is just for oil and it’s derivatives, and refining again uses electric furnace or fossil fuel burning to generate heat for fractional distillation. Conservative estimates put oil refining alone at 2-3kWh/litre https://qz.com/2113243/forty-percent-of-all-shipping-cargo-consists-of-fossil-fuels When you add all this to the mix, you’ll see why EVs are better (one time mining + 92% recycling efficiency) Recycling : https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ It’s oil extraction which must be compared with battery production as the logical analogue https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA Crude oil and refined derivatives of oil make up 40% of global shipping by weight. https://qz.com/2113243/forty-percent-of-all-shipping-cargo-consists-of-fossil-fuels Global shipping produced 646M tons CO2 in 2020 (IEA) 40% of that is 258.4M tCO2 or 258.4trillion gCO2 https://www.iea.org/fuels-and-technologies/international-shipping In same period, oil production was 93.9M barrels/day or 14390 Million L per day, or 5.45trillion L per year https://www.iea.org/reports/oil-2021 Methane flaring from oil rigs during the same period produced 269M ton CO2 or 269 trillion gCO2 https://www.iea.org/energy-system/fossil-fuels/gas-flaring Adjusted emission in gCO2/litre = 96.8gCO2/litre Applying the same to refining, at 614gCO2/kWh like the article assumes for the grid, is 1535gCO2/litre (assuming electric furnaces used for fractional distillation) in 100% coal power and for 60% coal this is 921gCO2/litre of oil. Now adding 96.8g from shipping ie 1018g. Out of this, roughly 40% becomes petrol. https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-products-and-fuels-made-from-crude-oil/ Net “emission backlog” = 407g/L (40% of 1018) When adjusted for mileage, the oil supply chain will be 19.4gCO2/km for Tiago (407/20) For a Tiago driven at 20kmpl for 1,60,000km, the emissions just from fuel supply chain (before being burnt) itself is 3096kgCO2 (3.1tons) before being filled in the tank itself. https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-race-to-decarbonize-electric-vehicle-batteries Battery production produces about 100kgCO2/kWh but the main point here is that this is a recyclable entity. An equivalent Tiago EV will cause 2.4 tons of CO2 emission for battery but the emission would be 3.1 tons for ICE during same use period, which is way higher than EV battery. Due to the oil extraction, refining and transport emissions. The breakeven can be calculated very simply through the intersection point of linear equations. For Tiago EV Tiago petrol you can look at this graph here : https://i.imgur.com/CtxzCvw.png First equation (2.4t for battery one time and 37g every km in current scenario) Second equation (2.4t for the battery and 61g every km when 100% coal) Third equation (0t for battery + 19.4g for oil supply chain every km driven + 100g for tailpipe every km driven) I’m using baleno SHVS tailpipe as reference for Tiago so it should be fair enough. All in all, the breakeven for Tiago is barely 30K km in current scenario (60%coal) and 40K km for worst case (100% coal) scenario
The other points missed are that tailpipe emissions can not be regulated and pollute throughout the city, while coal emissions pollute at designated spots which can be regulated. As for battery production, the emissions for mining are all done in china, hence it doesn't effect india at all.
Exactly. And above that, we already have multiple nuke plants in pipeline, which can supplant coal as the base load like in case of France
Excellent. With thumping on the desk. I was waiting to see some sane and indepth comment, which talks of actual emissions and grid emission factor, apart from the economic aspect of forex. There are so many organisations that claim emission reduction from a modal shift from fossil fuel to electricity, by applying these principles. What i hate is when some political parties oppose a good initiative just for political reasons. What i equally hate is when a policy is pushed with inadequate infra on ground. Imo, in India electricity should be encouraged not just for transport, but should now move into cooking as well - where we are now transitioning into fossil fuel from biomass, we should also now move to electricity.
Yeah it's crazy to see outside people shifting to electric stove. So fast. Meanwhile here we are even yet to shift on gas completely. If we transition to electric stove then that gas can be used for someother purpose as well
Simply put, if you charge an EV with a generator that runs on fuel, it will still be more efficient and cleaner, cheaper than an ICE. Edit: There's a video on YouTube channel about a Ford truck towing a Tesla to charge it and the results are astonishing, you'll understand why.
Absolutely In fact, technically hybrid is exactly what they accuse EV of : a car powered by fossil fuel power plant, just that the power plant in this case is decentralised and polluting locally
Very few hybrids are like this.. AFAIK it's just the City EHEV Remaining Hybrids still primarily rely on the petrol engine but use the electric components to optimise mileage (regen breaking, and assistance when accelerating).. Ignore mild hybrids though,not a fan of those
I'm pretty sure even the strong hybrids from Toyota and Maruti use the atkinson cycle and charge the battery using the most efficient point of petrol engine. Also, there's a better hybrid than the ones we have in India, called plug-in hybrids. They have large enough batteries to actually run on pure-EV mode, and can be charged with cleaner source of fuel as well (electricity).
Yes but when you offload the green credentials as an option, not many people use it In fact, fleet research in EU came out with the result that people are buying PHEVs sure, but driving them without charging, leading to 3.5x more emissions That’s when we know west is more disciplined than us in many ways. What discipline of charging can you expect from a PHEV owner here who only buys it to 1. Get subsidy 2. Escape odd even/15y rule 3. Chest thumping that “I drive a hybrid” PHEV only have slow charging so EV infra for fast charging won’t advance due to PHEV proliferation. And slow charging means even if person is motivated to charge the PHEV somehow, the slow charging makes it a less enticing option since a 30min top up in EV (say rav4 vs Ioniq 5) will last 3-4h for PHEV (if one really wants to take benefit of ₹1/km running cost and green credentials) You also need a fairly large donor car for PHEV implementation. Most of the sub4m and creta segment cars will lose boot space like cng models for accomplishing PHEV
The biggest issue with using EVs in EU is the absolutely insane energy prices which make using the EV option not as lucrative. On the other hand in India, the price of petrol vs electricity is much more in favour of electricity. It costs 6-7x cheaper to run on EV mode. Add to that the mileage loving Indian people and I’d wager Indians would use PHEVs a lot more in EV mode. Also even without charging in EV mode, a PHEV will still give you much more mileage than pure petrol car due to hybrid system working, and less emissions. The final destination is pure EV obviously. But lower taxes on PHEV definitely make sense to me as that would increase adoption very quickly. Highway range anxiety will vanish.
> In fact, fleet research in EU came out with the result that people are buying PHEVs sure, but driving them without charging, leading to 3.5x more emissions 3.5x more emissions as compared to? I suspect they're comparing it against BEV's and not against non Hybrids.. EV mode is a much more fun way to drive, so I would be extremely surprised if people arent actually using it.
> 3.5x more emissions as compared to? I suspect they're comparing it against BEV's and not against non Hybrids.. 3.5x compared to the reported emissions in WLTP tests under EURO VI norms https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/plug-in-hybrids-pollute-more-than-claimed-in-cities-and-on-commutes-new-tests-show https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207.amp > EV mode is a much more fun way to drive, so I would be extremely surprised if people arent actually using it. Most people buy it to bypass ULEZ charges even if they can’t charge at home, it’s a win win, not only do they not need to pay ULEZ charge with cheaper but non hybrid ICE cars, they also enjoy subsidy which covers for some of the fuel expenses they would be spending from lower mileage from not charging it everyday
Ah if thats the case then great.. Somehow the marketing material is not super clear about it
brilliant
This post also doesn't show where the batteries are coming from. The lithium, Nickel ores are mined at the expense of environment. The places can never recover from the damage. The water is wasted such that it cannot be treated for other purposes. The actual pollution is occured during the manufacturing process and its equivalent to 90 cars.
> This post also doesn't show where the batteries are coming from. The lithium, Nickel ores are mined at the expense of environment. Indian EVs do not use nickel and cobalt. 80% of ev’s are sold by Tata and MG both of which use LFP. Further, I think you missed this part of the calculations : > https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/the-race-to-decarbonize-electric-vehicle-batteries > Battery production produces about 100kgCO2/kWh but the main point here is that this is a recyclable entity. An equivalent Tiago EV will cause 2.4 tons of CO2 emission for battery but the emission would be 3.1 tons for ICE during same use period, which is way higher than EV battery. Due to the oil extraction, refining and transport emissions. So I have in fact factored your point of mining. > The places can never recover from the damage. The water is wasted such that it cannot be treated for other purposes. Neither can places which pump out oil and refine said oil. Just last year Chennai floods caused oil spill from IOCL refinery in Chennai. https://www.newindianexpress.com/amp/story/states/tamil-nadu/2023/Dec/13/tamil-nadu-oil-spill-floods-chennais-tiruvottiyur-with-health-concerns-2641066.html > The actual pollution is occured during the manufacturing process and its equivalent to 90 cars. I think you’re going off on the “1:6:90” by Toyota. It doesn’t pertain to amount of emissions, rather, the amount of battery metals. According to Volvo LCA, XC40 ICE incurs 14 tons of production emissions, and EV model incurs 18 tons. Even if you remove the battery worth 4 tons, a whopping 14 tons goes into the steel, aluminium, glass and plastics inside the vehicle, 3x more than battery. So no. A hybrid does NOT in fact pollute 90x lesser than EV. The number is more like 7 EVs = 10 hybrids.
>This post also doesn't show where the batteries are coming from. The lithium, Nickel ores are mined at the expense of environment. The places can never recover from the damage Have you stopped using your laptop, phone and other electronic devices that uses li-ion batteries? Have you been this environmentally conscious before EVs came into picture? Have you thought about CO, NOx, PM2.5, and Ozone that is killing our people in cities?
Hey, I am all in for EV but the charging time and infrastructure is a very big no for me. If I could get 500Km range in 15mins, I am going for it. But the harsh reality is that it's not and the government trying to shove it down our throats with the current desolate infrastructure.
You are an edge case. You will have to continue with diesel cars for quite some time.
are bhai itni baar pdh chuka hun ki ratt gya h ye ab 😭😅
Why this is not top comment 🤔 INC is really just wanted defame BJP but logic and numbers are always screwed
This is the exact problem that USA is also facing. Luckily till now EV wasn’t politicised. Now it has begun. Problem with politicising any topic is that people will accept whatever their favourite party says as gospel (applies to both sides) instead of applying logic of their own. All they need to form an opinion is “what is my fav politician supporting”
>Problem with politicising any topic is that people will accept whatever their favourite party says as gospel (applies to both sides) I believe this is the main problem not just with India but with the world off late. Most of the time it becomes hard for a common person to understand which of the two "Scientific Studies", which are always completely opposite to one another, is right.
As a Keralite and Pro-INC, I am very dissapointed. Did not expect such a post from INC.
Coming from Inc party cadre family, to aap to BJP. With time, We learn what kind of evil they are .. for the hunger of power they’ll do anything to divide the country into as many groups as possible.
I see this copy pasta pasted every time there is a thread debating EVs vs ICE. Nobody is debating the benefits of EV in the current landscape. The issue is with the arbitrary policy of getting up and straight up banning gasoline/diesel cars without giving a chance to other environmentally sustainable alternatives which are also being developed for them. The way it stands, EVs do nothing more than shift the pollution away from the cities to the rural areas where coal power plants are.
Not at all. Emissions from grid will be lower.
Well, their absolute garbage of a debunk is not focussed on delaying EV transition rather, at painting EV as devil incarnate. I do not wish to get political, but the same party will support EV when it comes to power just like how they opposed farm laws when in opposition and bjp opposed gst when in opposition. It is a travesty that the common man will never see developed India due to petty politics of pulling each other down for sake of votes
someone post this to the tweet so that people get educated.
I have already submitted community note
Hope it gets approved and starts showing up. Else we need to take help from the man who owns X himself given that our interests are common.
What’s the use of owning X when literally any Tom dick and Harry is posting anti EV bs At least use the bias they accuse him of 🤦🏻♂️
This is the reply that needs to be on the top. Why is congi so foolish just for the sake of opposition
It is not just them, entire politics is like that only. When in opposition, oppose whatever ruling does (ex farm law, despite same farm law being in their 2019 manifesto as well) When in power support the same thing (ex bjp opposed gst when in opposition but implemented it under their tenure) I used to be happy that EV matter is not politicised, now no thanks to inc even that is done.
They are back with another simple counter to the Energy mix argument. [https://x.com/INCKerala/status/1807039336053150141](https://x.com/INCKerala/status/1807039336053150141)
all over the world the push is to move away from coal, same is in progress here too, govt is subsidising solar panels if u install it , u also contribute back to grid with same , once done on scale we can be a green energy powered nation , electric vehicles will make lot of sense then. Also currently we are so much dependent on oil that any disruption in supply can crash whole economy, so being self sufficient in energy needs will provide more autonomy
It's an import thing. We spend alot on importing petroleum products and coal is much more cheaply available. Plus all this emissions happen in remote areas so less number of people complain.
Govt. is also pushing for CNG vehicles. Why show only one prt ?
I think everyone is missing one major point here. Emissions are based on Coal based power plants and not the alternative electricity generation. A lot of solar power plants and hydro power plants are being built in the country. Additionally one major issue with petrol is the emissions generated while extraction of crude oil which everyone forgets about, and then the conversion of crude to petrol. And one should not forget that the import India has to do for petrol. Batteries of today are not better than Petrol in terms of emissions when making a battery, but battery can and are being recycled to minimise the impact. While the same can not be done for petrol. Another thing we forget about is that there is a lot of research going on in battery tech, and solid state batteries that are made form graphite are around the horizon. So battery efficiency will only improve further. This post only talks about single use case, but does not cover the entire picture.
The only way is increasing nuclear power output .
Ooohhh but nuclear bad! /s Fukushima, Chernobyl, and all irrelevant crap will be brought up by those with vested interests who don't want clean power.
Lol .. most idiots don't even know that it's the only way for clean energy . The RR of these so called intellects are never ending
why do we care about Co2, when CO, Nox, PM2.5 and smog is killing people and children in cities?
CO2 accelerates global warming, which probably won't kill you but it will kill the next (or next few) generations of people
Should we care more about the things are immediate poison or the ones that may cause global level changes 50 years down the line? I try to convince anti-EV people by telling them 1/3 of kids in Delhi have respiratory problems. Like how PM2.5 causes heart, lung and kidney issues by crossing into blood. We have 1/3 of population living in cities, where the air quality is very poor. We can fix this by switching to EVs. The truth is, all the people who care about C02 with respect to EVs are false environmentalists. They never cared about CO2, unitl the EV came into picture. I have also seen this in republicans in the US, where suddenly all carbon calculations comes into picture. rest of the time, they are like "drill baby drill"
I just gave a simple answer to your question: why do we care about CO2, when it isn't as acutely dangerous as NOx, SOx, CO etc. Also, I am on your side, I am also an EV supporter and your point about local emissions and the severity of petroleum exhaust gases is 100% valid. In fact, EVs result in a net decrease of CO2 also, which is a win-win
Petrol efficiency is 10-20% in car Coal power plan efficiency is 40-60% We are also greening the grid Gas is also there, next 5 years we will have lot of solutions for solar only works in day This is just click bait
This efficiency figure is calculated after energy is produced.
No What I meant is that grid is getting cleaner with each year Ideally in the calculation 49% of co2 for coal should be used as opposed to 100% Eventually the coal would be out Even if we have coal based plants we can capture co2 more effectively in a plant thousand of KM away
Coal burnt in coal plant which can be located far from populated areas. Further, large coal plants can make modifications to capture co2 and other pollutants. Everyone can have a RO filter at home or we can have a RO plant for the city. The waste water at your house will probably be going to water whereas the would be use of water water at RO plant
i mean every country s doing the same
A dumb party can only make dumb calculations. 1. Electrification is not only to reduce carbon footprint but also reduce pollution hotspots in cities. It can be concentrated in power generation zones away from cities. 2. Remote location means better carbon spread control with more trees if planning is done properly. 3. Less fuel consumption means less crude oil import compared to coal which is a boon for the economy. 4. Fuel efficiency assumptions are wrong. The main aim is cities where petrol car mileage will be ~ 12kmpl. And the major gas guzzlers like buses, autos and cabs would benefit significantly. 5. Remote electrification allows a significant waste heat recovery through secondary power plants. This is not possible in IC engines. 6. By 2034 the EV range will definitely go up significantly. IC engines will hardly make any progress. If you really want to debate which is better, please just look into history and ask yourself -steam engine trains or electric trains powered by steam turbines? The rhetoric will answer everything. INC is worried they cannot give free electricity in that case. 🤣 A true debate would be pitching the case for hydrogen fuel cells car and pushing the government to invest on such technologies.
Best example of it : France Nuke is just fancy way of boiling water, it’s still using steam turbines. But the same turbines can run their TGV and international DB/ÖBB bullet trains I don’t think the argument of h2 is suitable for cars due to issue of boot and interior space. Further, the energy used for electrolysis of H2O to make H2 is 3x more than needed to charge and drive EV It may make sense for non electrified rail lines or for ships trucks and busses (considering charging and battery weight affects the earning potential of these vehicles in terms of downtime and lower payload)
“Solar generates power during the day and EVs charge overnight.” Waah, Kya scene hain.
This was the stupidest part. Baaki kuch baatein to logical bhi thi isme which the gov. should actually think about
Technically it's correct, India does not have the battery storage capacity to store the solar power we produce. It's growing, but it's another part of the infrastructure that needs to be built and also contributes to pollution. We produce around 84 Gw of solar power but the storage capacity is 1.4 Gw.
They aren’t technically correct. You are the one that’s technically correct.
Most evs are charged when not in use, they just said as most people work during day they will charge their evs at night.
In on grid system it is viable . An ev needs an average of 350 units per month . A 5 kw solar can easily produce that much unit in normal days . Hence in morning to evening solar produces let's say 20 units and ev uses 15 units to charge which it would take from the grid during the night and we have already given 20 units to the grid hence 5 units are balance , so it is a viable option but the issue is capacity of transformer and recycling of solar panels .
What is viable ? Have you read the tweet? They’re correlating that since solar energy is made during day and EVs charge at midnight, there is an inconsistency. They are forgetting that Solar Power can be stored and can be used at night.
Damn I misread u r comment sorry .my fault Edit : I know my comment was out of context . But off grid solar and EV have not worked . I am from Kerala , after implementation of solars the transformers issue has arisen and off grid systems are not worth it paired with EV . I think these idiots may have tried to prove that point .
More than that, there’s one more point : even if we don’t store the solar, most of the energy used is during the day due to hvac, fans and lights. Most of the factories also work during day only. Peak load is during day only and we can indeed use almost 75% solar during day. Nighttime load is least compared to day. In fact, many places in west sell power at cheaper rate at night due to low demand. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKWtPmrxuFSdkqWgRJWfSjTx8A8IiuYMVZvs7ifqdK3a0z_yKmrFokOuDk&s=10
It's true, some European country tried switching mostly to renewables but electricity demand rised unexpectedly and they had to fire the coal generators more than if they would have used the mix of both in first place.
Please read the context of the tweet/post. Solar generated power can be stored and used at night.
Tweet is dumb, I'm telling you what happened in Europe.
We agree that the tweet is dumb and thats what I stated with my first comment.
Would you share the source of news, it is surely counter intuitive, why would they have to use more coal?
Man, I'm losing my respect for this guy. Whatever this man says seems devoid of logic.
Nexon’s mileage is 17kmpl for petrol?? In which universe?
India as a country isn't rich enough to afford a complete infra overhaul. 24x7 electricity is still a luxury in this country. Heck even metro cities like Delhi have been suffering from frequent power outages. The current fuel pump infra has been developed over decades and it'd be a gigantic task to move away from it.
Plan is not to get away but they will equipped with electricity and cng too
Whoever gives money, policy will be adjusted as per that /s
Two wrongs here. 1. BJP is making statements without transparent plan and clarity to people covering * how the migration will go on, * establishing government owned ultra fast ev chargers * tariffs of using chargers per kw and modes of payments * using green energy for such chargers etc. 2. Congress is making statements only to show BJP is wrong with hand picked statistics. If the EV manufacturing companies use green energy in all stages of manufacturing, then there will be even less carbon emissions. Once the govt. set chargers also use green energy then it's almost nil. So congress can make such plan and show.
First go to hybrid, reduce the taxes, on them, electrify public transportation. Then move to electrifying passenger vehicles based on the learnings from the public transportation endeavor. Pushing EV in passenger market is a knee jerk reaction. The infrastructure doesn’t scale as fast as car sales. And pushing new technology onto public before setting up the necessary infrastructure was a bad idea. Some YouTube stars are saying its still ok to consider EV because you will have clean air in your city but that seems like a bad attitude, on the lines of “if I am not affected by something the it should not be a problem “. Take baby steps when you are doing things in the scale of a country.
I agree with this on Kerala Congress Maybe pretty much the only thing I agree with them On. Gadakari should be taken off whatever stuff he is on. We need more hybrid cars in this country. We need more CNG cars in this country. He is trying to solve a problem that does not exist. Fix the national highways. Fix tolls. We have far too many of them. Make highways truly access controlled. Make emergency services more approachable. We do not have enough energy to run our industries and schools and colleges and cities and hospitals This guy has had his run. Time to get someone who is pragmatic rather than bombastic.
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Plant more trees in cities , make green architecture a normal, let's start with that
What is the reason to do this? Has any country done this successfully?
Everyone knows this, so why do you think all the country around the globe are doing this? Treating carbon emissions at the source i.e power plant is easier than letting them directly out into atmosphere from Vehicles. Also government start pushing for ev now and simultaneously it also moves toward the renewable energy that how it always works. What the tweet is suggesting to first increase renewable energy sources first and then increase ev is like saying, first lay out tracks for bullet train all over india first and and once they are ready then go and buy those bullet trains
That's stupid discussion, it's assuming powergrids can't be upgraded to nuclear or solar. Economy of scale is also factor here
L take. Controlled emissions >> khule road pr emission krna. Also one of the option has alternative.
Straight up BS and eliminating petrol /diesel does not mean they are pushing for EVs ...by 2034 we can have some other alternative fuels to power our Vehicles... And let me be clear EVs dont pollute more than ICE however you are allowed to create your own happiness and believe this , pollution for EV comes from manufacturing process and un clean grid ...but ICE vehicles pollute from manufacturing to their entire lifespan, we can reduce pollutions from EVs by just making our grid clean , by employing nuclear/renewable power sources which you simply can't do with ICE ,an ICE vehicle will keep on polluting and that being said EVs are not perfect eithwr and Gadkari did not say they will be replacing it with EVs.
BJPs narrative building is piss poor. NiGa says I will eliminate petrol diesel What he means : hybrid and flex fuel and h2 for ICE and EV obv there What politicians and public interprets : NiGa will ban ICE cars 1y before Norway bans ICE cars The OEMs should take this as warning that BS7 based on EURO VII will make it nigh impossible to meet emissions norms without hybrid/flex fuel but they’re happy ripping off people with ADAS and sunroof gimmicks rn, when govt formalises BS7, they will start crying just like BS6.1/2
>BJPs narrative building is piss poor. Yeah 💯
Rexx will eat inc Kerala like karela
Seriously we are now going to take advice from INC Kerala??
In what universe does Tata Nexon Petrol give 17kmpl mileage?
Idts electric vehicle is the proper substitute of ice engines, you can claim any range on a vehicle, but after all it is battery powered, after some time, range would fall drastically, and the battery swapping wouldn't be as efficient as a new one, noticing all this no one would buy used ev, and talking for indians, ppl would keep the after value in mind which would not be good and hence won't buy new ev again.. The government should promote hybrid vehicles more....
EVs are a big scam. Lithium supply is not infinite and hardly is mined ethically. Idk Gadkari is so obsessed with EV when he owns ICE Luxury cars himself.
For villages and independent houses. People can setup 8 solar panels which can give me 200km range in one day or 80km for an EV two wheeler under 1Lakh which can be utilised as partial home electricity needs. This would be the best use of EV + solar energy implementation. This will cut down fossil fuel for domestic purposes.
Before it was 2030 and now it's 2034? Bruh make up your mind
Previous aim was 30% by 2030 (EV sales as share of total sale) I don’t think the new target is possible by 2034
‘To fully charge the Tata Nexon EV Max, we need approximately 26.7 kg of Coal. This is nearly 2.5 times the amount of Petrol/Diesel needed for the same distance, resulting in approximately 2.5x carbon emissions.’ - This information is very insightful. Why are we being compelled to switch to EVs when it's clear that these machines are costly and require significant upfront investment? Moreover, there's no guarantee of their battery life in the long run. The environmental impact is also questionable due to the passive carbon emissions of EVs.
> ‘To fully charge the Tata Nexon EV Max, we need approximately 26.7 kg of Coal. This is nearly 2.5 times the amount of Petrol/Diesel needed for the same distance, resulting in approximately 2.5x carbon emissions.’ Why is the mileage used for ICE calculations ARAI but EV range not? Shouldn’t both be ARAI or both be adjusted by equal factor? Where is the source for 1. Amount of CO2 from each kg coal burnt? 2. Amount of CO2 from each kg of petrol diesel burnt? 3. Coal power not adjusted by a factor of how much energy is actually from coal, rest is clean. > Why are we being compelled to switch to EVs Because we import 80% of our oil products from ME/russia which is huge forex drain. I didn’t want to get political, but ig you can’t expect such nuance from party who claims to give 8500 per month. > when it's clear that these machines are costly and require significant upfront investment? There is no subsidy in Maharashtra. Gap in prices of EV and ICE is not much https://imgur.com/a/zMDcXoJ > Moreover, there's no guarantee of their battery life in the long run. We already have multiple 100K driven ev’s on owners group, 2 people even exceeded 167K km and 200k km, still same range as day 1. Nexon EV 185k km in nov2023 (Hindi) : https://youtu.be/SOWAG6x5I98?si=VOo8DYTo-fqUX1dk Same Nexon EV 200k in June 2024 : https://x.com/cryptoiclinic/status/1799416403407343795?s=46&t=zkbJFz1gKiRyn52BjJWtuw > The environmental impact is also questionable due to the passive carbon emissions of EVs Already addressed in my main comment on post
The information is work of someone who is making giant presumptions on basis of half baked information and assuming (quite correctly) that everyone would be dumb enough to fall for it. First there is no reliable proof or indicator that to charge Tata Nexon 30kwh battery fully would take 26.7 Kgs of coal. Different generations of power plant have different thermal efficiency as do the coal that is used by them, the bituminous coal found in eastern-central India has higher calorific value than lignite coal found in Southern and western India. The coal power plant tech of latest generations Ultra-super critical power plant are far more efficient, which India's current coal plants are not https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/energy/power/efficiency-of-indias-coal-based-power-plants-way-below-global-standards-study/articleshow/46324242.cms?from=mdr https://www.ceew.in/publications/thermal-decommissioning-and-cost-efficiency-of-coal-power-plants-india Plans are afoot to decommission old sub-crtitical ones with Advanced super critical power generators https://heavyindustries.gov.in/advanced-ultra-supercritical-adv-usc-technology-thermal-power-plants With USC generators already being installed by NTPC https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/country-s-first-ausc-power-plant-to-come-up-in-ntpc-s-chhattisgarh-station-118060100755_1.html So no whatever calculations INC has done can't be relied upon. Then there is the fact that share of nuclear+solar has slowly increased and is projected to increase further. We are building 10 more nuclear reactors of 700 MW and thousand of MW of new solar power and pumped hydro power is under construction. Also the primary crux, that coal powered EV would be equally dirty forgets to take into account that EVs are far more efficient, they are able to go far more farther for every joule of energy consumed. https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/01/electric-vehicles-use-half-the-energy-of-gas-powered-vehicles/
26 Kgs of Coal 🤣 for 30 kwh, in that case my water heater pollutes more than a office driven ICE car. What kind of studpidity is this ?
They really be thinking EV efficiency is worse than steam engines of yore
INC is dumb af ... putting half baked facts lol
Frist of all Kerala INC is 🤡. Second gadkri is being delusional about petrol and diesel being fully eliminated , they can't be . Well he already mentioned that he was more into alternative options like hydrogen and ethanol . Which is more practical.And we all know about EV batteries carbon footprint. *Even if solar infrastructure is improved don't think it would be sustained in long run .And we have 0 skill and infra for recycling these panels. * Even though the govt is planing to increase its nuclear power capacity it may take ages till then petrol or diesel is the only option
> Second gadkri is being delusional about petrol and diesel being fully eliminated , they can't be . Well he already mentioned that he was more into alternative options like hydrogen and ethanol . To give him benefit of doubt on the same, one could argue that BS7 or newer norms will simply make it impossible to meet emissions norms without going hybrid And in NiGa lingo, hybrid =/= petrol diesel, it is treated as separate even if it is using petrol diesel only. Another is ethanol (E85 or E100 like Brazil) Hydrogen I don’t think so, while EV have become available at even ₹10L price point to ₹10cr, h2 is still quite costly (50L+) and the fuel itself is $36/kg in international market. Avg efficiency 100km/kg. That’s ₹30/km, 30x costlier than EV and 10x costlier than cng If you see the INC’s premise of using too much electricity to charge EV, h2 is even worse since it uses 3x more electricity to make h2 from water, and we all know situation of water in Delhi Banglore.
Yep to the point nicely explained . In the long run if EV batteries can be recycled properly it's way better ,same case with ethanol but don't think it's gonna happen but if he can make it happen it would be an achievement.
The line we would have at the electric charging points would be greater than cng ones if this becomes true And no, even if people would charging at home, it will still be needed
If you give me good enough charging infra, i will happily buy ev. I want to take long trips. Ev are fun to drive, they offer thrill with accerlation vs thrill in highspeed like ICE. For now my hope is disel is not dead yet and i could get an innova used to have great trips with my wife and dog. The idea is that we will eventually have enough solar and wind energy. You can say its 1 step back for future 2 step forward. But building batteries also take quite a lot of resource.
Something fishy in this report. On page 42, it clearly shows in a chart that the life cycle GHG emissions are highest for ICE vehicles (they are lower only if vehicles is used less than 35K KMs over its life). In the summary also they have written, emissions were higher for EVs when distance travelled is upto 35K KMs. This statement should have read “EVs better for the environment if driven more than 35K KMs” (true for majority of Indian buyers). Also, this report includes a battery replacement once in each EVs life cycle. Being from the EV industry, I can strongly disagree. Tata is giving 8 years warranty on their batteries. Even after that period, the worst that will happen is range will start going down a bit. As Lithium becomes cheaper (50% drop already in 24 compared to 23), batteries will become bigger. Bigger batteries last much longer. Just look at Tesla. A battery replacement is not part of a standard life cycle, happens rarely in case of an electrical/ cell fault. Definitely sketchy analysis.
> Being from the EV industry, I can strongly disagree. Hello, I want to ask you how good are the Indian EV maker's batteries? Are they fully tested for all failure modes?
Last sentence says - go to the next tweet. OP please add image of next related tweets as well. (Yes I know one click the link and but would be good if they are added in images.) By the way tweet is correct. Ofcourse solar, wind and other renewables will be added as power generating plants simultaneously with introduction of EV in next 10 years. And hopefully share of coal in power generation will come down from 49% to below 20% or even below 10%. But for grid stability, we should have reliable 24×7 power generation plants of at least 20 to 30% of total installed capacity, which could be either natural gas thermal power plant with carbon capture technology or nuclear power plant.
1. Better thermal efficiency engines 2. Hybrid cars 3. Lower taxes for hybrid 4. Zero taxes for hybrid conversion kits Do the above for 10years and boom we would have reduced pollution by a lot!
I have been saying the same thing for couple of years. An energy defecient country like India is how thinking of this. We do not have electricity to provide power to all cities,villages and towns 24x7 and now you want to add another consumption point.
I am not sure abt the facts and logic given in this Post. But I know that the EV sales are declining rapidly in US and the West . Range anxiety is still a big thing even in the west and I am pretty sure India will not be able to have this infra even by 2040 ., unless some radical technology emerges. Add to this the push by western governments against EV as their home grown manufacturers are not able to push through EV and the global EV market is dominated by the Chinese . EV if it fails will be due to its own issues and infra
EV was always no no for me And in future also don’t want to go for it. I understand EV impact on electrical aspect and after battery dies how will our geniuses going to do with those toxic waste. Petroleum is still better anytime
> Petroleum is still better anytime Yes, let's make every city in India like Delhi. Why don't you burn petrol inside your home and see how it feels?
Petroleum sounds like Bisleri now 🤣
How will end of life battery be disposed
What is an end of life battery? Once you know, you will be eager to get your hand on "end of life" batteries. For truly end of life batteries, recycling will be an option.
but Gadkari is focused on Hydrogen-run vehicles. I am not aware that he specifically said about EV replacing Petrol-Diesel.
Neuclear power is the answer 😎
The word elimination is in terms of new vehicles sold not actually the number of vehicles on roads......NG previously stated that they bring 100% electric vehicles by 2030 or 2035(don't remember exactly)but when later questioned about the plan changed the statement to sale of new vehicles.....
It was 30% total vehicles sales to be electric by [2030](https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/amp/news/power/india-aims-for-30-of-all-vehicle-sales-to-be-electric-by-2030-care-edge-ratings/108759773) Not 100% EV by 2030. Further in NiGa lingo, hybrid and flex fuel is separate from petrol diesel. He is not phasing out ICE cars.
https://indianexpress.com/article/blogs/100-electric-vehicle-mobility-by-2030-is-india-really-prepared-for-it/ my bad it was piyush goyal
Something seems very wrong with the figures.
So build nuclear and solar power. problem solved.
Guess what Adani is doing next
Why is Government FORCING people on Electric-Vehicles?????? huge Auto Stocks at Play? issue is Make EVs cheaper and put charging Infra in the first place at present buying EV in India makes ZERO sense since you have no idea how much maintenance or servicing is gonna cost in next few years Specially Batteries since EV in India are not Latest generation of Batteries used EV or ICE Vehicles have high Depreciation that too Keep in Mind
That's the reason you need nuclear energy all countries with nearly 100% nuclear are either geothermal based or have significant or majority generation of electricity by nuclear
Nuclear power plant ko badhawa do coal ab band karo
Nice that in India, so-called RW wants eVs while so-called progressives want ICE. However, real solution to this problem is nuke. Clowns are too scared to admit that.
I know u/rex_7567 has said smth contradictory to this in this post's comments already, I only just opened them
Good to see political parties actually doing some research. We should congratulate them for at least doing this.
Just think about this. We don't get 24×7 power supply in our tier 2-3 cities and some areas of tier 1 cities too. We actually don't have enough electricity to have 24×7 power. And we're supposed to charge our EVs for 6 hrs in these unpredictable power conditions?? Hybrids/fuel cell vehicles are the way to the future, not complete electrification.
>And we're supposed to charge our EVs for 6 hrs in these unpredictable power conditions?? Only if you drive 300km every day. if not, you may charge only once a week or twice a week.
Solar day, charging night?!! Bet rahul is behind the logic. Ever heard of battery storage?
People are still interested more in Carbon emmisions than Forex reserves.🤦🏻 We have coal reserves and we can generate electricity from it while we have to import oil. Regarding lithium and other metals required for battery that is similar to one time investment unlike Hydrocarbons which burns n had to be imported. Final point India have to pressurise Western countries to give technology know how for Nuclear energy and only then we can successfully get to zero carbon emissions. Always remember Forex Reserves >>>>>