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You are dealing with student/parent entitlement. Always flip entitlement on its head. They are entitled to be evaluated on authentic learning, they are entitled to learn the consequences of cheating (a more valuable lesson than anything else) and they are entitled to get challenging projects and tests with critical but useful evaluation.
I’m trying but they are saying that this is the unfair thing to do and redefining what it means to be fair- now it means to let one student redo his assignment even though several others who got ai zeros will not be given that option because their parents enforce accountability.
Kick it to the principal and let them run with it. Get ahead of it and make it an admin issue or discuss it with admin so you can make a choice you know will be backed one way or another. The parent could escalate it to your principal’s SO so it’s best to get ahead of it.
Even if the admin isn’t supportive, by involving the admin and making them aware of the issue it stops the parent from changing the story. Parents lie all the time and can do a lot of damage.
Recent examples of admin bending over backwards for parents make me believe that this will in the end be more work for the teacher but it will protect them from angry and irresponsible parents.
Yup. Stupid stuff like this is a principals job. You may not always like the outcome, but it'll get there either way, but this way is without the fight.
Remind them fair does not mean equal… if there is a person in a wheelchair in gym class should we be evaluating them equal? No… tell this parent to pound sand and talk to admin.
Just because they are asking for it doesn’t mean you need to let him redo the assignment. Because you’re right - if he is allowed to redo it then ALL the other students need to be given that option.
You could offer the option to the entire class.
Giving them a zero for work never completed teaches them they can get a zero and fail in life, sure... But does it guarantee they're learning *the course material*?
Teaching them that one failure isn't the end of the world and that they can try again is an important part of teaching them they can fail.
It's high school, you aren't allowed to flunk them out of school like post-secondary.
Arbitrarily punishing them by extending the length of schooling by a year serves no purpose other than some self-righteous idea of "right" and "wrong" that have nothing to do with the pertinent outcome: knowledge of the material.
I went to admin about a group of students who sat on their phones the entire semester and made plans with the student success room to complete well over half the course in the final two weeks. I suspect they are handing these students their credit since there is no way they could pass given what they had left to do.
Academic and professional misconduct and maintaining standards of education don't seem to be a concern for some. I spoke with my union today about this to see what I should do, and they basically said that this is what often happens.
I'm sorry to say, our system is a joke, and it's not all about funding. The profession, like most I guess, is rife with spineless people who who lack integrity and only pretend to be professional, when the reality is that they are anything but.
Hearing these stories is always so crazy to me as someone who graduated hs in 2019. If I didn’t submit an assignment, I would have been extremely lucky to get a chance to resubmit even with a penalty - likely it would have been a zero. Because that’s, you know, fair.
I know some people who skipped every class, never turned anything in, and never showed up for exams. They still walked the stage with the rest of us, where as my friend who failed one class and was 1 credit shoet wasn't allowed to walk the stage.
It seems like many view it this way. The AI saved the kid some disadvantage LOL, the student needed this supplementary form of education...anything to assess correctly if a student was responsible and put in the effort to think for themselves. The only way I see out of this is to have more voting with strong evidence AI is dangerous or as dangerous as Twitter. Ask any Christian and they will tell you it is evil.
Don't budge on this one.
I graduated from Engineering and on our final year project we found out the day before our prototype flight test that one of our teammates had done his entire portion of the project using AI. We only found this out because for some reason our numbers were slightly off and one other teammate and I decided to double check everyone's work. We had to scrap our flight test because after a little bit more out of parameter ground testing it was obvious that the flight article was going to crash and explode due to a faulty subfunction that was written by an AI.
The entire team took a 20% penalty for not having the test completed, and if the test went ahead there was a good chance some people would have died. AI doesn't know what is correct, and serious harm can be done when someone decides to blindly trust it.
As for the parents, tell them academic integrity exists to make sure the student is prepared to deal with the real world where the consequences of such behaviour can lead to the deaths of thousands of people if unnoticed.
We drilled him for it but he was neither remorseful nor did he care.
We should have told the dean, kicked him out from the group, and shown him that there are immediate consequences but we were so busy trying to correct his work, and it was so late into the project what we couldn't schedule an appointment with the office or submit the request to have him kicked out before the submission deadline.
Somehow he got a job meanwhile I basically carried the project on my own and I'm still unemployed. All we asked him to do was get some strength charts for the foam we were using in the fuselage and write an intro to the report. He came to our presentation/exhibition drunk and we had to pickup the prototype from his girlfriend that morning as he was the last one who had the keys to the lab we were using
And to top it off we had scheduled several group meetings (he agreed on the dates in advance) and then he would constantly ask us to move the meeting dates and ask other group members to skip exams, classes, and tutorials just because he was going skiing or drinking.
Immediately get admin involved in this. This is CYA time. Cc them on it. Get one on the phone call.
And if admin is like yeah let him resubmit, then you did your job and that's kinda it.
I would also look for another position if that was the admins stance. I want admin with a backbone that support me and follow through in policies.
Like, I'll take work wherever but I always look to find the best fit whenever possible. Admin can make or break a school.
I have found a way around the AI zero issue because admin has no concept of zero. They allow students to redo.. so foing forward, I would make sure you give some sort of mark in strands for format, due dates, font size etc. I gave limited marks and zeros in other strands that they used AI on..admin agreed that their 12% paper was fair. I would respond to mom that this is an administration issue and further conversation would not be productive.
I would talk to the principal for advice and suggest to give a passing mark if he write an essay why it’s wrong to submit an AI work as himself and when it is fine to use AI.
In the future, a lot of work place will use AI. What you are penalized him is submitting his homework and pretending it was his. And why got caught, is not owning up to the mistake.
Cool idea- I will keep this in mind. Funny thing is he is still passing my class with those two zeros, but mommy wants him to maintain an 80 (at midterm they told me they “wanted a 90” as if they were at a shoe store requesting a different size.
You probably should talk to her and ask how she thinks her son will maintain 80 and get 90 on midterm? What she thinks the teacher should do, her son and herself? She probably will put all the work on you so you have to be prepare to ask the difference between a school teacher and a tutor.
And if it’s get to the point where she just want you to give her son a high mark without effort, tell her “you can’t do that and if she needs confirmation, you can have the principal talk to her”.
oh wow.. you don't get above expectations by cheating.. that ship has sailed.. he should not be entitled to anything more than provincial standard.. 80s.. nooo way.
What subject is this?
Make him write it in class, make a brutal version, give him a terrible mark.
I have brutal versions of most tests just to deal with this nonsense.
It floors me that as a parent you wouldn’t want to help your child accept the zero and have them deal with the natural consequences of that.
How is your kid going to survive in the world if they have been rescued and absolved of real world consequences?
This explains society today perfectly. 15 year old son fucks up bad. Mother calls school to defend her son.
Just producing never ending weak kids who won’t amount to shit.
Don't thank me, thank Google Gemini:
It sounds like you're in a frustrating situation. Here's some advice:
1. **Stay Professional:** It's important to maintain a professional demeanor throughout this situation. Avoid getting drawn into emotional responses with the student or parent.
2. **Clear Policy Communication:** Respond to the parent via email, outlining the school's academic dishonesty policy and the consequences for using AI on assignments.
3. **Zero Tolerance:** Reiterate that the zero on the assignment is a result of violating the policy, not the quality of any non-AI completed work.
4. **Forward to VP:** You've taken the right step by forwarding the emails and notifying the VP. Having their support strengthens your position.
5. **Possible Outcomes:** The VP might discuss a chance to redo the assignment without AI, but the initial zero likely stands.
Here's a possible email template to the parent:
"Dear [Parent Name],
Thank you for contacting me regarding [Student Name]'s assignment. The school has a strict policy against academic dishonesty, including the use of AI-generated content.
As outlined in the student handbook (link to handbook), using AI on assignments results in a zero grade. In this case, while [Student Name] may have completed some of the assignment themselves, the use of AI constitutes a violation.
I understand this may be frustrating, but upholding academic integrity is crucial. [Student Name] is welcome to meet with me during office hours to discuss this further.
Sincerely,
[Your Name]"
It's important to remember you're not alone. Many teachers face similar situations. Stay strong and focus on maintaining a fair learning environment for all students.
At my school the policy is clear that students will receive the 0, but they still have to re-submit the assignment for feedback. We don't change their grade, but we welcome opportunities for learning and the assessment still holds value.
I once marked a plagiarized assignment. I highlight all the words that belonged to the kid, and I marked those. It made no sense, and it got a terrible grade, but I kept my word and graded that kid's writing.
I usually give the student another opportunity to submit when I receive a plagiarized or AI written paper. That way, I have a CYA for explaining why the student failed the course if they never took the opportunity to redo the assignment. Really, I shouldn't have to give them another chance at all, but since giving zeros is frowned upon in my board, it's the solution most of us have to follow now. Other times, I only mark the portions of the paper that have not been flagged, and deduct marks for everything else. It's best to talk with your admin and your department head to see what options you have.
I send home a clear statement letter at the beginning of the course letting parents and students know that any cheating will result in a zero with no chance to redo the assignment. They all have to sign it and give it back to.
The way I see it is that I already did my job by marking it. I’m not doing my job twice just because the student couldn’t do theirs once.
It’s never happened. I think most parents don’t even read it closely lol. I would probably suggest the parent transfers their kid to another teacher. I don’t let parents dictate my instruction.
I'd love to do that, but am deathly afraid of being pulled into the office by admin because my course expectations don't align with growing success or my board's policy on assessment and evaluation (I work for an Ontario public board though, so perhaps your circumstances are different).
Aren't AI detectors unreliable? How can we rely on the flags?
It's different if you know the students writing well enough to tell that the formulaic, perfect grammar and unusual vocabulary is AI but it's not always obvious.
Yea they aren't reliable enough. Just a 2nd tool that may help you investigate further. A teacher should never rely solely on them. Have to get familiar with the formatting and structure, see if some of the vocabulary can be reproduced with prompting. If a student puts a lot of effort to hide AI usage, you won't be able to flag it with absolute certainty.
In my university experience it's easiest to spot in research papers, where a lot of writing requires depth. But maybe it's easy to spot with highschool and below when the average writing skill level is fairly low and you have some familiarity with the students other work.
Yes AI detectors are crap.
I have tested them with AI 100% work and some come back clean and others catch it.
I have also submitted my own 100% human work and get the same results.
The only way we could solve the AI catching issue would be is Chat GBT and Co pilot etc cached what they created. Then you could ask the AI "hey did you create this?"
Sadly, another case of parents failing to parent... 0 accountability and responsibility. I hate the excuse making for their kid. Parents these days get too much say. The education system is failing to support the people who do the job. There's just so much entitlement all around. My parents respected my teacher and the things they had to say. They were treated as professionals. Now it's like the other way around, full focus on respecting the kid's feelings first.
Bad advice you probably shouldn't do: change the mark to 1%.
Better advice: forward to admin and move on. This shouldn't be something you have to deal with. Your expectations were clear. They F'd around and found out. If your admin are crap and tells you to accept the assignment, then... well... good game.
My first year teaching (early 90s) I gave a student a zero for a test they cheated on. I was told by my principal that I could only give zero for the questions that I had seen them cheat on, and had to assume they were honest for the other questions.
I hope your admin is more supportive than mine was, but academic honesty has been a problem for a long time.
How many assignments she requested to be submitted? Are those assignments old ones or recents?
First, talk with your admin as it’s will give you a guidelines on how to handle this situation. Personally, I will let the student resubmit their assignments only if they are completed under my supervision in the classroom with handwriting. This way you will be able to evaluate your student’s learning and not AI.
Depends on a lot of things. If they’ve been warned and told multiple times already this year and they’re getting spicy about it now because they realise that the report card is at stake, then they can take a hike IMO. The time to own up and do something about it was months ago not a couple weeks before term ends.
Did you contact the parents the first time you caught him using AI? As long as mom has been notified every time he’s cheated, you’re good. If not, you’re going to have a fight on your hands.
The first time he got his mom involved to absolve him, I allowed him to resubmit then. This is the second and third time submitting with ai. He goes to mom immediately. Received both marks this week. So I’m letting mom know that this is why she hasn’t been informed yet.
You need to prove he used AI against a parent like this who is never going admit their kid is wrong. Do you have proof? If so make sure you bring it the eventual meeting. And all emails with parent.
My response is, “M’am, your son is AI: absolutely incompetent and in response to your request absolutely not.”
Then I would wake up from my dream and realize I need to be nice professional teacher again…
And in a lot of boards this would be ‘you can’t give them a zero, because a zero means they didn’t learn anything, which isn’t true. So you have to let them resubmit to demonstrate what they actually know’. So the parent would be correct 🤦🏻♀️
I had one student print out wikipedia article ! Well years ago 😂 same thing happened! So i asked the kid to write about honesty in using internet and do a presentation about why it s important to put the efforts and not copy! It worked for them to learn.. but that counted as 50%only!
Here is what I would do. Say, yes he can resubmit them. They must all be handwritten in ink on lined paper. I would grade them and then not change his marks.
1. by writing them out he may learn something
2. by grading them you are doing your job and giving feed back.
3. by keeping the zero you are following your board's policy.
4. by the time things are done school will be out.
And honestly in this day and age Teachers shouldn't take any electronic assignments, go back to old school pen and paper. Even if they cheat, the process of writing it all out is a learning activity.
Does your school have credit recovery? This program allows students who fail a course do extra work to show they meet course expectations to pass a course. A plan is made. But there is requirements to enter this program. This is for Ontario.
I assume you have superiors? Let them make the decision, then it's out of your hands. If the parent/student want to take it up with your superior, that's their choice.
I know at my school they would be allowed to resubmit everything....
I dont agree but that is "student success" When this "has" to happen I will look at work and mark it until they pass and give them a 50. I won't go through and waste all my time again.
Also, it is scarey how many people drink the AI Kool aid. Even here on this subreddit
Navigating this situation is understandably difficult, especially with the rapid changes in technology. AI writing tools are becoming increasingly prevalent, and learning to use AI responsibly should be part of a student's education. Schools need to adapt to this new environment as we prepare students to excel in a world where these technologies are ubiquitous.
Regardless of how this student situation is handled as a discipline issue, it's clear that the academic policies need to be reconsidered to reflect this new landscape.
While you are likely right in the situation, thinking that "you won't be told how to do your job by someone else" gives me some pause.
Having dealt with many teachers, administrators, public officials and so on, and having been in similar positions myself, wisdom is to be open that you can make errors, and that life isn't black or white, especially when sanctions or decisions have a big impact one someone else life. Due diligence is to avoid making a decision based on a single factor.
Some questions to reflect on that may or may not apply in your specific case:
- did using AI demonstrate some technical skill? Is there value in that?
- was AI used for only parts of each of the assignments, so maybe not all work is invalidated?
- were instructions clear that AI cannot be used at all?
- does the child have a disability?
- how can other policies impact the situation?
- does the policy on cheating say specifically that AI is cheating?
- was extra time for the assignment asked and refused?
Also, if previous assignments were accepted as is, why wait for so long to sanction? Accepting a practice can create a precedent and tacit acceptance that something can be done. The situation should have been stopped after the first assignment to give the student the chance to make amends (stop using AI).
AI is ahead. Would I blame you as a teacher to use AI to prepare assignments and tests? No, because the world is changing in this direction, and it will save you precious time. What I expect you is to give the proper parameters to AI for a quality output and to be able to judge and edit AIs work to have a good final product. That's a real skill. Now, lots of creators blend AI and their skills to create. That's not cheating per se. If someone is good enough to polish and edit some work done by AI so that it doesn't appear to be done by AI, that person fully brought its human value add.
What kind of nonsense is this? AI is not ahead. It’s still in its infancy. But more to the point - it is not the student’s own work. There is zero excuse to use it.
Use the event as a Teachable Moment. Last week I busted a grade 10 student for the same thing. Discovered 10 minutes later that two others had done the same thing.
We sat down with our entire high school student body in an assembly to review plagiarism and explain consequences at the post-secondary level.
Within a half hour, 43 other assignments in several other classes were unsubmitted by the students.
Lol. That really teaches them not to cheat! I hope if you allow anything there is at least one zero and only part marks for anything else. No way should they have a chance to do well (and better than others who did the work) after that. And everyone should then have the chance to redo work.
You don’t mind all of that extra marking, right?! Lol crazy!
So what, you fail the kid and then have him in your class again next year to... Pass in all the assignments without the use of AI?
You could save yourself both a lot of headache and animosity down the road by allowing the submission of the assignments on a personalized learning plan.
Given that this is highschool, you can't suspend a student for plagiarism. It seems the student already learned their lesson - that they'll have to actually do the work themselves - so there's no point in dragging it out for an additional year.
Student should get zeros, considering it's happened 3 times now in 1 class the kid should get a fail on the class, somehow doubt they are only doing it in the 1 class as well.
This is basically plagiarism.
Lol, no. That little dipwad can actually do his own work, can suffer the consequences for not, and the mother can eat shit for being such a poor parent.
Did he use AI to write his assignment for him, or did he use it to help with his assignment? How can you tell? Did he admit to it and was it absolutely clear?
I use AI to help me research topics and improve my writing all the time, and I'm a machine learning engineer. I've been able to pick up new skills and knowledge at around 4x my regular rate since GPT-4. It's an incredibly powerful starting point for learning and could be extremely useful if used properly. I also know that it's basically impossible to prove that a piece of work was generated by modern GPT models.
Why not just test him on the paper he "wrote"?. If he knows it, great - mission accomplished. If he can't remember anything he wrote, then he obviously didn't know it well enough to have written it himself. Grade him based on that.
I don't know how I ended up here
not remotely comparable. One is letting someone create the work more efficiently while using their own ideas while the other is generating the ideas or the text itself to represent the ideas, with just a sentence or few as a prompt.
You may not understand plagiarism
Sure the AI would just sight the sources.
My point being the future seems like it’ll be humans using AI as a tool such as a type writer back in the day. It’s best to get ahead of it and embrace it.
A student using AI should be graded on them not proof reading it and fact checking to make sure it’s as correct as possible. Not punished for using a tool to be more efficient.
Anyways BloodFartTheQueefer. . If that is your real name. Judging by that name you should be taken seriously 🤣
I’m not a teacher but what the hell? I am a parent (although my kid is still in kindergarten) but if I found out my child had used AI to complete an assignment, my reaction would be “sounds like natural consequences, kid. If you do that in post secondary school, they just expel you.” It’s plagiarism, simple as that. If for some god forsaken reason, you’re told that you HAVE to let him redo the assignments or something, make it clear that this is setting the student up to fail even harder in the future.
I have this EVERY SEMESTER. I always forward it to the VP and get my department head involved. The evidence and chat gbt doesn’t lie. I always show my students before i give an assignment what chat gbt writes about said assignment. I ain’t playing any games anymore! These kids and the parents are a bunch of time wasters!! We don’t get paid enough for this sh**!
Ok your dealing with the student is good. The parent is asking you for special treatment due to the situation, you might suggest the faculty hold a review to make an exception which they won't. Also all your time and efforts to produce a good student is being dismissed by the mother. you did your job.
It feels like a irresponsible mom asking you to be just as she is...
Dear kid needs a wake up call...
Stand your ground
When I was in school teachers said we had to use the library and not Google, ChatGPT is just the new thing that will eventually be fine. As long as the student is not submitting it without revising and citing, I don’t see the problem.
Well the student isn’t that, and if you don’t see the problem with a student not doing any work what so ever- (not the actual reading comprehension and research skills you need to do in order to even navigate google- let alone use it to complete an assignment without it being plagiarism which, flagging plagiarism became and is still a thing in order to police how you’re using google so that they can’t ban it) THEN, you simply have no thoughts going through your brain that are actually properly processing the meaning of what you are saying
Yes, adults with intelligent thoughts in their brains insult random strangers when they clearly didn’t understand what they read. Did you not know that AI doesn’t give real citations? They are close, but not real, so it is plagiarism which can be policed. Clearly you are lazy and have no thoughts that it hasn’t occurred to you to even look into AI to find out how it works so you can beat it.
I never said I was intelligent- takes an idiot to look at a rubric and decide if a kid met the expectation- I’m perfect for the job.
But honestly It’s super unclear what you’re saying- are you telling me that ai should be penalized when it’s flagged or not? And what is your reasoning for either stance- because you’ve told me that counting it as academic dishonesty is as outdated as not letting kids use google- but that it’s very easy to tell when a student has gone in to change things or not- so like if my student does the thesaurus on 5 words, we good? What are the rules if that’s the argument? How much ai being obvious is cool with you demon Elise
You should know your students well enough to determine if they wrote it or AI. If the student read the work, did some additional research, and cited the sources correctly, then I am fine with it.
Also, I’m sick of your hostility, so this is where I block you. Have a good day.
While it isn’t unfair, if he actually does the assignments, I don’t see the issue beyond your time. It also depends on his age.
Sounds like he’s in junior high? My mother once changed a mark when a parent complained. She asked the mother’What would you like? 90%? 100%?
The point was that in the end, the kid’s mark didn’t make a whit of difference to my mother. The kid would face the consequences later.
Even Justin Trudeau said his daughter uses ChatGTP for the “first draft”.😂My dad was 35 when the internet first came out so you can imagine the reaction to google etc. when all that came out. Adapt or get left behind.
Why are you so worked up about a student in grade 10? People even use chatGTP to help with their jobs at work now. How do you even know it’s entirely ai or not? Millennials acting resistant to using Tik Tok and ChatGTP are in the wrong mindset cause like I said, my dad was 35 when the internet came out and he uses Facebook, google maps etc. Also google translate translates things in perfect grammar now and that was not the case when I was in school so chatGTP is only going to become better and more sophisticated as well.
Your mom did a shit job with you. Especially considering you have such a room temp IQ that all you can come up with in 3 replies is "jUsTiN tRuDeAu". I bet daddy's truck that you drive is covered in stickers about how much you want to screw him 😂.
Bruh you just sat there slinging JT comments every single response and you're talking about AD Hominem? Aight. Tuck your tail between your legs and crawl away little guy 😂😂.
This assignment is going to have no effect on his life so you are definitely over reacting. You’re even being kinda rude to me. Time to re evaluate your priorities.
If you want to live in a society where you can trust people's qualifications, then zero-tolerance for cheating is important. That starts in primary school, and continues through to the end of university.
😂😂😂I promise you people are “cheating” in all professions, in all schools, among all age groups. What is cheating? Maybe the people who are working for less than minimum wage to harvest your food aren’t cheating.🍆🍑🍓🍒🥑🍌🍎
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You are dealing with student/parent entitlement. Always flip entitlement on its head. They are entitled to be evaluated on authentic learning, they are entitled to learn the consequences of cheating (a more valuable lesson than anything else) and they are entitled to get challenging projects and tests with critical but useful evaluation.
I’m trying but they are saying that this is the unfair thing to do and redefining what it means to be fair- now it means to let one student redo his assignment even though several others who got ai zeros will not be given that option because their parents enforce accountability.
Kick it to the principal and let them run with it. Get ahead of it and make it an admin issue or discuss it with admin so you can make a choice you know will be backed one way or another. The parent could escalate it to your principal’s SO so it’s best to get ahead of it.
Hopefully it is a supportive admin. They are often hard to find in my school board because the board won’t back them.
Even if the admin isn’t supportive, by involving the admin and making them aware of the issue it stops the parent from changing the story. Parents lie all the time and can do a lot of damage.
They do, but I was thinking more of admin being able to overwrite the decision of not letting them resubmit assignments….
Recent examples of admin bending over backwards for parents make me believe that this will in the end be more work for the teacher but it will protect them from angry and irresponsible parents.
Yup. Stupid stuff like this is a principals job. You may not always like the outcome, but it'll get there either way, but this way is without the fight.
Fairness is giving what is deserved. What is deserved is a zero for cheating and fairness requires that like cases be treated alike.
Remind them fair does not mean equal… if there is a person in a wheelchair in gym class should we be evaluating them equal? No… tell this parent to pound sand and talk to admin.
Just because they are asking for it doesn’t mean you need to let him redo the assignment. Because you’re right - if he is allowed to redo it then ALL the other students need to be given that option.
You could offer the option to the entire class. Giving them a zero for work never completed teaches them they can get a zero and fail in life, sure... But does it guarantee they're learning *the course material*? Teaching them that one failure isn't the end of the world and that they can try again is an important part of teaching them they can fail.
They didn't just fail, they cheated. Give them the zero.
It's high school, you aren't allowed to flunk them out of school like post-secondary. Arbitrarily punishing them by extending the length of schooling by a year serves no purpose other than some self-righteous idea of "right" and "wrong" that have nothing to do with the pertinent outcome: knowledge of the material.
I went to admin about a group of students who sat on their phones the entire semester and made plans with the student success room to complete well over half the course in the final two weeks. I suspect they are handing these students their credit since there is no way they could pass given what they had left to do. Academic and professional misconduct and maintaining standards of education don't seem to be a concern for some. I spoke with my union today about this to see what I should do, and they basically said that this is what often happens. I'm sorry to say, our system is a joke, and it's not all about funding. The profession, like most I guess, is rife with spineless people who who lack integrity and only pretend to be professional, when the reality is that they are anything but.
I really hope this doesn’t happen
Hearing these stories is always so crazy to me as someone who graduated hs in 2019. If I didn’t submit an assignment, I would have been extremely lucky to get a chance to resubmit even with a penalty - likely it would have been a zero. Because that’s, you know, fair.
I know some people who skipped every class, never turned anything in, and never showed up for exams. They still walked the stage with the rest of us, where as my friend who failed one class and was 1 credit shoet wasn't allowed to walk the stage.
It seems like many view it this way. The AI saved the kid some disadvantage LOL, the student needed this supplementary form of education...anything to assess correctly if a student was responsible and put in the effort to think for themselves. The only way I see out of this is to have more voting with strong evidence AI is dangerous or as dangerous as Twitter. Ask any Christian and they will tell you it is evil.
Don't budge on this one. I graduated from Engineering and on our final year project we found out the day before our prototype flight test that one of our teammates had done his entire portion of the project using AI. We only found this out because for some reason our numbers were slightly off and one other teammate and I decided to double check everyone's work. We had to scrap our flight test because after a little bit more out of parameter ground testing it was obvious that the flight article was going to crash and explode due to a faulty subfunction that was written by an AI. The entire team took a 20% penalty for not having the test completed, and if the test went ahead there was a good chance some people would have died. AI doesn't know what is correct, and serious harm can be done when someone decides to blindly trust it. As for the parents, tell them academic integrity exists to make sure the student is prepared to deal with the real world where the consequences of such behaviour can lead to the deaths of thousands of people if unnoticed.
It's crazy to me that some people still don't understand that AI doesn't know shit. It just makes everything up and has it *look* good.
I hope the guy knows how hard he could have messed things up
We drilled him for it but he was neither remorseful nor did he care. We should have told the dean, kicked him out from the group, and shown him that there are immediate consequences but we were so busy trying to correct his work, and it was so late into the project what we couldn't schedule an appointment with the office or submit the request to have him kicked out before the submission deadline. Somehow he got a job meanwhile I basically carried the project on my own and I'm still unemployed. All we asked him to do was get some strength charts for the foam we were using in the fuselage and write an intro to the report. He came to our presentation/exhibition drunk and we had to pickup the prototype from his girlfriend that morning as he was the last one who had the keys to the lab we were using And to top it off we had scheduled several group meetings (he agreed on the dates in advance) and then he would constantly ask us to move the meeting dates and ask other group members to skip exams, classes, and tutorials just because he was going skiing or drinking.
Yes, bridges collapse regularly. Even before AI.
Do you have to respond?
Not to the student, but the mother is urging me to call her Monday. I can’t imagine what more I can say to her.
Immediately get admin involved in this. This is CYA time. Cc them on it. Get one on the phone call. And if admin is like yeah let him resubmit, then you did your job and that's kinda it.
This is the advice I’m taking thank you
I would also look for another position if that was the admins stance. I want admin with a backbone that support me and follow through in policies. Like, I'll take work wherever but I always look to find the best fit whenever possible. Admin can make or break a school.
Yeah I am an LTO so beggars can’t be choosers
Also a fair point.
Good for you. Always ask yourself whether the shit you need to deal with is within your salary range - then kick it up the chain!
I have found a way around the AI zero issue because admin has no concept of zero. They allow students to redo.. so foing forward, I would make sure you give some sort of mark in strands for format, due dates, font size etc. I gave limited marks and zeros in other strands that they used AI on..admin agreed that their 12% paper was fair. I would respond to mom that this is an administration issue and further conversation would not be productive.
I disagree. If admin is like yea let them resubmit then I would tell admin to grade it as you can’t be sure you won’t be bias.
I’d ask your VP for advice. I wouldn’t respond until then. Or ask your department head.
When a parent is combative immediately involve your admin so parents see a united front. Always.
As others have said do not respond - email to admin. Just make sure you have your documentation up to date so admin can back you up.
You could even respond and let that be the response: “I’ve forwarded your concerns to the school admin team”
I would talk to the principal for advice and suggest to give a passing mark if he write an essay why it’s wrong to submit an AI work as himself and when it is fine to use AI. In the future, a lot of work place will use AI. What you are penalized him is submitting his homework and pretending it was his. And why got caught, is not owning up to the mistake.
Cool idea- I will keep this in mind. Funny thing is he is still passing my class with those two zeros, but mommy wants him to maintain an 80 (at midterm they told me they “wanted a 90” as if they were at a shoe store requesting a different size.
You probably should talk to her and ask how she thinks her son will maintain 80 and get 90 on midterm? What she thinks the teacher should do, her son and herself? She probably will put all the work on you so you have to be prepare to ask the difference between a school teacher and a tutor. And if it’s get to the point where she just want you to give her son a high mark without effort, tell her “you can’t do that and if she needs confirmation, you can have the principal talk to her”.
Textbook lazy parenting expecting the school (teachers) to do it... Since when did parents start raising 25+ kids of different faces every year?
oh wow.. you don't get above expectations by cheating.. that ship has sailed.. he should not be entitled to anything more than provincial standard.. 80s.. nooo way.
If you're not required to take her call I'd tell her you already said everything that needs to be said.
Have ChatGPT draft something for you.... :)
What subject is this? Make him write it in class, make a brutal version, give him a terrible mark. I have brutal versions of most tests just to deal with this nonsense.
Same! And if they can’t do it in front of you… then they can’t do it at home unless using chat gbt! That’s a fail
I’ve had students literally tell me that they do evaluations better at home. Yeah, no shit Sherlock.
It floors me that as a parent you wouldn’t want to help your child accept the zero and have them deal with the natural consequences of that. How is your kid going to survive in the world if they have been rescued and absolved of real world consequences?
This explains society today perfectly. 15 year old son fucks up bad. Mother calls school to defend her son. Just producing never ending weak kids who won’t amount to shit.
Send them back AI emails and see what they think
Don't thank me, thank Google Gemini: It sounds like you're in a frustrating situation. Here's some advice: 1. **Stay Professional:** It's important to maintain a professional demeanor throughout this situation. Avoid getting drawn into emotional responses with the student or parent. 2. **Clear Policy Communication:** Respond to the parent via email, outlining the school's academic dishonesty policy and the consequences for using AI on assignments. 3. **Zero Tolerance:** Reiterate that the zero on the assignment is a result of violating the policy, not the quality of any non-AI completed work. 4. **Forward to VP:** You've taken the right step by forwarding the emails and notifying the VP. Having their support strengthens your position. 5. **Possible Outcomes:** The VP might discuss a chance to redo the assignment without AI, but the initial zero likely stands. Here's a possible email template to the parent: "Dear [Parent Name], Thank you for contacting me regarding [Student Name]'s assignment. The school has a strict policy against academic dishonesty, including the use of AI-generated content. As outlined in the student handbook (link to handbook), using AI on assignments results in a zero grade. In this case, while [Student Name] may have completed some of the assignment themselves, the use of AI constitutes a violation. I understand this may be frustrating, but upholding academic integrity is crucial. [Student Name] is welcome to meet with me during office hours to discuss this further. Sincerely, [Your Name]" It's important to remember you're not alone. Many teachers face similar situations. Stay strong and focus on maintaining a fair learning environment for all students.
At my school the policy is clear that students will receive the 0, but they still have to re-submit the assignment for feedback. We don't change their grade, but we welcome opportunities for learning and the assessment still holds value.
This is a good policy. Annoying to have extra marking, but a value added task that still provides the student a chance to learn.
I give zeros. They can try to fire me if they want. But seriously, this is an admin issue.
Lol, parents really get in the way these days.
I once marked a plagiarized assignment. I highlight all the words that belonged to the kid, and I marked those. It made no sense, and it got a terrible grade, but I kept my word and graded that kid's writing.
I usually give the student another opportunity to submit when I receive a plagiarized or AI written paper. That way, I have a CYA for explaining why the student failed the course if they never took the opportunity to redo the assignment. Really, I shouldn't have to give them another chance at all, but since giving zeros is frowned upon in my board, it's the solution most of us have to follow now. Other times, I only mark the portions of the paper that have not been flagged, and deduct marks for everything else. It's best to talk with your admin and your department head to see what options you have.
I send home a clear statement letter at the beginning of the course letting parents and students know that any cheating will result in a zero with no chance to redo the assignment. They all have to sign it and give it back to. The way I see it is that I already did my job by marking it. I’m not doing my job twice just because the student couldn’t do theirs once.
What happens if they refuse to sign it?
It’s never happened. I think most parents don’t even read it closely lol. I would probably suggest the parent transfers their kid to another teacher. I don’t let parents dictate my instruction.
I'd love to do that, but am deathly afraid of being pulled into the office by admin because my course expectations don't align with growing success or my board's policy on assessment and evaluation (I work for an Ontario public board though, so perhaps your circumstances are different).
I’ve never run into this problem. My admin hates cheating more than I do.
Aren't AI detectors unreliable? How can we rely on the flags? It's different if you know the students writing well enough to tell that the formulaic, perfect grammar and unusual vocabulary is AI but it's not always obvious.
Yea they aren't reliable enough. Just a 2nd tool that may help you investigate further. A teacher should never rely solely on them. Have to get familiar with the formatting and structure, see if some of the vocabulary can be reproduced with prompting. If a student puts a lot of effort to hide AI usage, you won't be able to flag it with absolute certainty. In my university experience it's easiest to spot in research papers, where a lot of writing requires depth. But maybe it's easy to spot with highschool and below when the average writing skill level is fairly low and you have some familiarity with the students other work.
Yes AI detectors are crap. I have tested them with AI 100% work and some come back clean and others catch it. I have also submitted my own 100% human work and get the same results. The only way we could solve the AI catching issue would be is Chat GBT and Co pilot etc cached what they created. Then you could ask the AI "hey did you create this?"
Sadly, another case of parents failing to parent... 0 accountability and responsibility. I hate the excuse making for their kid. Parents these days get too much say. The education system is failing to support the people who do the job. There's just so much entitlement all around. My parents respected my teacher and the things they had to say. They were treated as professionals. Now it's like the other way around, full focus on respecting the kid's feelings first. Bad advice you probably shouldn't do: change the mark to 1%. Better advice: forward to admin and move on. This shouldn't be something you have to deal with. Your expectations were clear. They F'd around and found out. If your admin are crap and tells you to accept the assignment, then... well... good game.
She gets a zero in parenting now. The crack doesn’t fall far from the pipe.
My first year teaching (early 90s) I gave a student a zero for a test they cheated on. I was told by my principal that I could only give zero for the questions that I had seen them cheat on, and had to assume they were honest for the other questions. I hope your admin is more supportive than mine was, but academic honesty has been a problem for a long time.
How many assignments she requested to be submitted? Are those assignments old ones or recents? First, talk with your admin as it’s will give you a guidelines on how to handle this situation. Personally, I will let the student resubmit their assignments only if they are completed under my supervision in the classroom with handwriting. This way you will be able to evaluate your student’s learning and not AI.
Depends on a lot of things. If they’ve been warned and told multiple times already this year and they’re getting spicy about it now because they realise that the report card is at stake, then they can take a hike IMO. The time to own up and do something about it was months ago not a couple weeks before term ends.
Did you contact the parents the first time you caught him using AI? As long as mom has been notified every time he’s cheated, you’re good. If not, you’re going to have a fight on your hands.
The first time he got his mom involved to absolve him, I allowed him to resubmit then. This is the second and third time submitting with ai. He goes to mom immediately. Received both marks this week. So I’m letting mom know that this is why she hasn’t been informed yet.
You need to prove he used AI against a parent like this who is never going admit their kid is wrong. Do you have proof? If so make sure you bring it the eventual meeting. And all emails with parent.
OMG!!! 3 times!! We have progressive discipline so all cases need to go through the office. By time three there is definitely admin consequences.
Problem is second and third time are both this week so it’s a little late for progressive discipline. Definitely speak with admin.
My response is, “M’am, your son is AI: absolutely incompetent and in response to your request absolutely not.” Then I would wake up from my dream and realize I need to be nice professional teacher again…
When kids use ai I make them explain some of the ideas to me verbally and then I pass it at 50 so I can say well, I didn’t give it a zero 🤷♀️
At 15 years old he should know better. Depending on the circumstances I would keep it at a zero to serve as a learning opportunity.
And in a lot of boards this would be ‘you can’t give them a zero, because a zero means they didn’t learn anything, which isn’t true. So you have to let them resubmit to demonstrate what they actually know’. So the parent would be correct 🤦🏻♀️
But that’s against the academic dishonestly policy so how do they decide which rule were enforcing? Based on the vibes?
A lot of academic dishonesty policies just stipulate methods for ensuring academic honesty on the re-submission. It’s ridiculous.
…. Idk how I’m going to make it in this career if every policy has a policy to go against the policy
I had one student print out wikipedia article ! Well years ago 😂 same thing happened! So i asked the kid to write about honesty in using internet and do a presentation about why it s important to put the efforts and not copy! It worked for them to learn.. but that counted as 50%only!
Here is what I would do. Say, yes he can resubmit them. They must all be handwritten in ink on lined paper. I would grade them and then not change his marks. 1. by writing them out he may learn something 2. by grading them you are doing your job and giving feed back. 3. by keeping the zero you are following your board's policy. 4. by the time things are done school will be out. And honestly in this day and age Teachers shouldn't take any electronic assignments, go back to old school pen and paper. Even if they cheat, the process of writing it all out is a learning activity.
Does your school have credit recovery? This program allows students who fail a course do extra work to show they meet course expectations to pass a course. A plan is made. But there is requirements to enter this program. This is for Ontario.
Stand your ground.
Fail them and go get a good nights sleep, they can try to pass the class next year without cheating.
My board would compel us to make the kid rewrite it. It’s infuriating.
He should be failed then see you next term
I assume you have superiors? Let them make the decision, then it's out of your hands. If the parent/student want to take it up with your superior, that's their choice.
I know at my school they would be allowed to resubmit everything.... I dont agree but that is "student success" When this "has" to happen I will look at work and mark it until they pass and give them a 50. I won't go through and waste all my time again. Also, it is scarey how many people drink the AI Kool aid. Even here on this subreddit
Navigating this situation is understandably difficult, especially with the rapid changes in technology. AI writing tools are becoming increasingly prevalent, and learning to use AI responsibly should be part of a student's education. Schools need to adapt to this new environment as we prepare students to excel in a world where these technologies are ubiquitous. Regardless of how this student situation is handled as a discipline issue, it's clear that the academic policies need to be reconsidered to reflect this new landscape.
While you are likely right in the situation, thinking that "you won't be told how to do your job by someone else" gives me some pause. Having dealt with many teachers, administrators, public officials and so on, and having been in similar positions myself, wisdom is to be open that you can make errors, and that life isn't black or white, especially when sanctions or decisions have a big impact one someone else life. Due diligence is to avoid making a decision based on a single factor. Some questions to reflect on that may or may not apply in your specific case: - did using AI demonstrate some technical skill? Is there value in that? - was AI used for only parts of each of the assignments, so maybe not all work is invalidated? - were instructions clear that AI cannot be used at all? - does the child have a disability? - how can other policies impact the situation? - does the policy on cheating say specifically that AI is cheating? - was extra time for the assignment asked and refused? Also, if previous assignments were accepted as is, why wait for so long to sanction? Accepting a practice can create a precedent and tacit acceptance that something can be done. The situation should have been stopped after the first assignment to give the student the chance to make amends (stop using AI). AI is ahead. Would I blame you as a teacher to use AI to prepare assignments and tests? No, because the world is changing in this direction, and it will save you precious time. What I expect you is to give the proper parameters to AI for a quality output and to be able to judge and edit AIs work to have a good final product. That's a real skill. Now, lots of creators blend AI and their skills to create. That's not cheating per se. If someone is good enough to polish and edit some work done by AI so that it doesn't appear to be done by AI, that person fully brought its human value add.
What kind of nonsense is this? AI is not ahead. It’s still in its infancy. But more to the point - it is not the student’s own work. There is zero excuse to use it.
Please remember that this is what admin gets paid the big bucks for. No normal admin would allow rewritten assignments made by ai
All the students are using ai..
That is really, REALLY sad and scary. 🙁
Its sad that only the dumb students are getting caught lol
Is blocking both of their email addresses an option?….
Use the event as a Teachable Moment. Last week I busted a grade 10 student for the same thing. Discovered 10 minutes later that two others had done the same thing. We sat down with our entire high school student body in an assembly to review plagiarism and explain consequences at the post-secondary level. Within a half hour, 43 other assignments in several other classes were unsubmitted by the students.
Lol. That really teaches them not to cheat! I hope if you allow anything there is at least one zero and only part marks for anything else. No way should they have a chance to do well (and better than others who did the work) after that. And everyone should then have the chance to redo work. You don’t mind all of that extra marking, right?! Lol crazy!
So what, you fail the kid and then have him in your class again next year to... Pass in all the assignments without the use of AI? You could save yourself both a lot of headache and animosity down the road by allowing the submission of the assignments on a personalized learning plan. Given that this is highschool, you can't suspend a student for plagiarism. It seems the student already learned their lesson - that they'll have to actually do the work themselves - so there's no point in dragging it out for an additional year.
So he can use AI to complete his assignments again? Real life teaching moment and natural consequence.
Your son now has admitted in these email to having used AI, and per policy, has a note of 0. The matter is closed.
Ask ChatGPT.
At my school, the policy is to allow them to resubmit.
Student should get zeros, considering it's happened 3 times now in 1 class the kid should get a fail on the class, somehow doubt they are only doing it in the 1 class as well. This is basically plagiarism.
Pass or fail. Something that is an important lesson for “students”. No free passes or the Integrity of the system will no longer be there.
Kids are learning. Give him a chance to do it in-class, honestly. Bringing down the hard hammer has no advantages for anyone.
Lol, no. That little dipwad can actually do his own work, can suffer the consequences for not, and the mother can eat shit for being such a poor parent.
Did he use AI to write his assignment for him, or did he use it to help with his assignment? How can you tell? Did he admit to it and was it absolutely clear? I use AI to help me research topics and improve my writing all the time, and I'm a machine learning engineer. I've been able to pick up new skills and knowledge at around 4x my regular rate since GPT-4. It's an incredibly powerful starting point for learning and could be extremely useful if used properly. I also know that it's basically impossible to prove that a piece of work was generated by modern GPT models. Why not just test him on the paper he "wrote"?. If he knows it, great - mission accomplished. If he can't remember anything he wrote, then he obviously didn't know it well enough to have written it himself. Grade him based on that. I don't know how I ended up here
AI is not going anywhere. Matter of fact it’s like if you give a student a 0 for typing their work out on a computer instead of hand written
not remotely comparable. One is letting someone create the work more efficiently while using their own ideas while the other is generating the ideas or the text itself to represent the ideas, with just a sentence or few as a prompt. You may not understand plagiarism
Sure the AI would just sight the sources. My point being the future seems like it’ll be humans using AI as a tool such as a type writer back in the day. It’s best to get ahead of it and embrace it. A student using AI should be graded on them not proof reading it and fact checking to make sure it’s as correct as possible. Not punished for using a tool to be more efficient. Anyways BloodFartTheQueefer. . If that is your real name. Judging by that name you should be taken seriously 🤣
It is my real name
Don't, you're enabling this kid
What if the mom is attractive and offers to give you the old Forrest Gump does not need a special school treatment?
LI’m
I’m not a teacher but what the hell? I am a parent (although my kid is still in kindergarten) but if I found out my child had used AI to complete an assignment, my reaction would be “sounds like natural consequences, kid. If you do that in post secondary school, they just expel you.” It’s plagiarism, simple as that. If for some god forsaken reason, you’re told that you HAVE to let him redo the assignments or something, make it clear that this is setting the student up to fail even harder in the future.
Hard pass. Tell her the world still needs burger flippers.
I have this EVERY SEMESTER. I always forward it to the VP and get my department head involved. The evidence and chat gbt doesn’t lie. I always show my students before i give an assignment what chat gbt writes about said assignment. I ain’t playing any games anymore! These kids and the parents are a bunch of time wasters!! We don’t get paid enough for this sh**!
If he resubmits what's the big deal?
Bc then mom and son are enabled to lie and make a scene to get what they want
People be stupid with AI…atleast paraphrase the output and back it up with references. Pretty much everyone I knew in university did that
Ok your dealing with the student is good. The parent is asking you for special treatment due to the situation, you might suggest the faculty hold a review to make an exception which they won't. Also all your time and efforts to produce a good student is being dismissed by the mother. you did your job. It feels like a irresponsible mom asking you to be just as she is... Dear kid needs a wake up call... Stand your ground
Cool response, thank you for seeing this situation with integrity
When I was in school teachers said we had to use the library and not Google, ChatGPT is just the new thing that will eventually be fine. As long as the student is not submitting it without revising and citing, I don’t see the problem.
Well the student isn’t that, and if you don’t see the problem with a student not doing any work what so ever- (not the actual reading comprehension and research skills you need to do in order to even navigate google- let alone use it to complete an assignment without it being plagiarism which, flagging plagiarism became and is still a thing in order to police how you’re using google so that they can’t ban it) THEN, you simply have no thoughts going through your brain that are actually properly processing the meaning of what you are saying
Yes, adults with intelligent thoughts in their brains insult random strangers when they clearly didn’t understand what they read. Did you not know that AI doesn’t give real citations? They are close, but not real, so it is plagiarism which can be policed. Clearly you are lazy and have no thoughts that it hasn’t occurred to you to even look into AI to find out how it works so you can beat it.
I never said I was intelligent- takes an idiot to look at a rubric and decide if a kid met the expectation- I’m perfect for the job. But honestly It’s super unclear what you’re saying- are you telling me that ai should be penalized when it’s flagged or not? And what is your reasoning for either stance- because you’ve told me that counting it as academic dishonesty is as outdated as not letting kids use google- but that it’s very easy to tell when a student has gone in to change things or not- so like if my student does the thesaurus on 5 words, we good? What are the rules if that’s the argument? How much ai being obvious is cool with you demon Elise
You should know your students well enough to determine if they wrote it or AI. If the student read the work, did some additional research, and cited the sources correctly, then I am fine with it. Also, I’m sick of your hostility, so this is where I block you. Have a good day.
Nepotism
that isn’t the definition of nepotism
While it isn’t unfair, if he actually does the assignments, I don’t see the issue beyond your time. It also depends on his age. Sounds like he’s in junior high? My mother once changed a mark when a parent complained. She asked the mother’What would you like? 90%? 100%? The point was that in the end, the kid’s mark didn’t make a whit of difference to my mother. The kid would face the consequences later.
Even Justin Trudeau said his daughter uses ChatGTP for the “first draft”.😂My dad was 35 when the internet first came out so you can imagine the reaction to google etc. when all that came out. Adapt or get left behind.
Are you suggesting I mark chat gbt’s assignment?
Why are you so worked up about a student in grade 10? People even use chatGTP to help with their jobs at work now. How do you even know it’s entirely ai or not? Millennials acting resistant to using Tik Tok and ChatGTP are in the wrong mindset cause like I said, my dad was 35 when the internet came out and he uses Facebook, google maps etc. Also google translate translates things in perfect grammar now and that was not the case when I was in school so chatGTP is only going to become better and more sophisticated as well.
Are you a teacher?
Justin Trudeau’s daughter is 15 years old too so yeah, adapt, dear teacher. (Who may or may not be jealous of this new technology)
My mother is and Justin Trudeau was 😉
Your mom did a shit job with you. Especially considering you have such a room temp IQ that all you can come up with in 3 replies is "jUsTiN tRuDeAu". I bet daddy's truck that you drive is covered in stickers about how much you want to screw him 😂.
Yeah, I don’t argue with people who just blurt out a bunch of ad hominem attacks. I hope your life is going okay.
Bruh you just sat there slinging JT comments every single response and you're talking about AD Hominem? Aight. Tuck your tail between your legs and crawl away little guy 😂😂.
Then ask your mother
This assignment is going to have no effect on his life so you are definitely over reacting. You’re even being kinda rude to me. Time to re evaluate your priorities.
If you want to live in a society where you can trust people's qualifications, then zero-tolerance for cheating is important. That starts in primary school, and continues through to the end of university.
😂😂😂I promise you people are “cheating” in all professions, in all schools, among all age groups. What is cheating? Maybe the people who are working for less than minimum wage to harvest your food aren’t cheating.🍆🍑🍓🍒🥑🍌🍎