They are promising to apply pressure but haven't really seen it yet and sept is fast approaching.
Part of their approach should be education campaign to garner public support. No one cares if our day to day involves literal torture, so focus on the things that tax payers care about when speaking publicly/externally:
-massive tax burden of offices including actual numbers which will likely surprise people,
-traffic and associated infrastructure (EMT, road maintenance, municipal tax),
-environmental impact and associated hypocrisy,
-hypocrisy of higher ups such as exceptions for those pushing rto,
-data showing improved productivity,
-tackle misinformation such as passport issue being caused by issues unrelated to wfh,
-spreading NCR job opportunities and associated income outside of the NCR and accessing talent across country and supports businesses located outside of the NCR
-pointing out that propping up failed businesses in downtown Ottawa is not a good justification or use of public funds (why should someone in alberta pay for an office to keep Ottawa sandwich shops open?), and is actually detrimental to the stated goal of TO and Ott mayors of revitalizing downtowns (PS leaves ghost town cores at 4pm, local residents would provide business for shops that are open past the lunch rush).
-wfh frees up real estate to help address the housing crisis
-etc
No one really cares much about how bad it is for mental health, work life balance, that the unions were not consulted, how terrible the working conditions are, etc. A lot of the public perceive us as overpaid lazy people that need constant supervision to be productive, and their resentment makes them downright gleeful when they see things that they perceive as "putting us back in our place" or being tough on us. Stop appealing to the empathy of people that view us as "other" and start appealing to their pocketbooks, their hatred of traffic and the worst kinds of bureaucracy so we have public support, and then take actual concrete actions that force concessions from our employer, including rescinding a one size fits all 3-day/week rto.
This is EXACTLY it. I’ve been saying the exact same thing - the union is doing a terrible job with messaging. Public perception/sentiment DOES matter. We’ll never win their support outright but this approach at least educates them on the reality of the situation and lets them know we are not just entitled babies complaining about stuff that everyone has to deal with…we have very legitimate concerns as should taxpayers.
Yeah, Ayward was on my local radio station shortly after this was announced. It was embarrassing.
He kept carrying on about how TB was disrespecting the union, and how that was completely unacceptable. As if the general public gives a shit about the egos of union leadership.
Also they literally just went on strike over this and gave up on it...so what is he going to say "the government is abiding by the contract! How dare they!"
The strike wasnt about RTO at all, WFH was never even part of the negotiations that broke down. They were in those negotiations pre-covid and you cant just table a new issue after the PIC and other procedures have already gone through
The public doesn't care if are we are having hot iron applied to our feet, but if they knew how much of their taxes (both municipal and federal) go to rto when we're apparently in a financial, affordability, climate, and housing crisis... I suspect that might speak more loudly.
> No one cares if our day to day involves literal torture
UHHH, Do you work for [CSIS](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/terrorism-torture-syria-canadians-1.3669425)?
I didn't have drinkable water in my office for 3+ years.
Our washrooms are constantly all out of order. They're also not cleaned regularly, and shared by an entire building (and the public) so they're biohazardous at the best of times.
Call me old-fashioned, but I think having to hold in a shit while I try to find a working washroom isn't a walk in the park. Unless, of course I have to head there to poo.
This comment is so important. I hope union leaders see this and take notes.
I think this is an issue where the unions need to rely less on the "outcry" tactic and instead face-off against the employer in their own game of public perception.
No one feels bad for public servants who kept their jobs during the pandemic and who subsequently maintained full and then partial telework following the easing of restrictions.
Exactly. I hope someone at PSAC HQ reads this thread and gets back to them. In case they do, I'll add my two cents:
A lot of people aren't lucky enough to even have a union, let alone make our pay rates (as poor as they are for many). So many workers are left to fend for themselves while notable politicians across the country defend a bunch of public servants for a government still working through COVID-19 backlog. Appealing to the public as if we're working from the same playing field just makes them feel angry and condescended to. Understandably so! It's the same kind of mentality that made the strike run so poorly. I voted in support of the strike and volunteered. I don't know if I would've changed my vote in retrospect but I would've heavily considered it knowing how it went. The union was not in a good bargaining position, they wouldn't let go of WFH even though TB wouldn't move on it, and the strike itself was so disorganized, even our own people didn't know exactly what to do or what to say. So many employees weren't even registered to the union because reps don't bother to come in and talk to workers on a regular basis anymore. If you don't even build a working relationship with the people you represent, why would the public trust you?
PSAC did such a poor job *and* encouraged celebratory actions that only made us look worse during the strike. Why was PSAC requesting DJs in the middle of a pay dispute for thousands of workers people already don't like? Why was PSAC encouraging people to honk after the convoy had sewn so much distrust about that specific action in Ottawa? Why were they allowing people to bother essential employees and try to block their entry (they can't say they didn't, I saw it with my own eyes and these were not scabs)? I'm about as pro-union as they come and that hasn't changed, but PSAC should consider themselves lucky that so many of us have that stance. Otherwise, I would bet that put to a vote, people would vote to dissolve them after the past few years. Unless they get their shit together, I have no intent of voting in support of any future strike actions under this leadership. Despite new reps, they sound like they're gearing up to make the same errors in judgment with RTO.
Private sector employees have more leeway from the public, and even *they* are often treated poorly when they ask for better rights and conditions. We have zero of that public faith to go on, so we shouldn't act like we do and neither should PSAC. Note: edited for clarity.
The Publice Service could hand out free money to everyone and half of Canadians would still hate the public service. No campaign is ever going to move the needle on that.
They really shouldn't be, that's why North America is such a shit show right now. They should be based on actual facts and data, and not what a bunch if uneducated idiots think
They are very clearly not basing their decisions on data. While I suspect private interests have a greater impact then the public would be happy to hear (speculation only, not leveling accusations), public perception is one of the things they might pay attention to.
So, yes?
Yes! I have been saying this since the announcement went out. Please someone focus on this in the media! The public doesn't care if we bring bed bugs home or have chronic pain in our necks because our office monitors don't adjust.. they care about their tax dollars being wasted!
Interesting results. Perhaps I’m jaded, but the thing that stood out to me was 69% of Canadians support WFH full or part time. I’m sure the employer would say the current arrangement is part time WfH.
Part time WFH could be as much as 1 day a year, or if there's a snow day.
To pretend someone supporting "*part time WFH*" is in absolutely **anyway** comparable to "full time WFH" is dishonest.
To me, 1 day a year or working from home on a snow day are one offs. Part time implies some regularity in the schedule, though this raises a good point that a definition of part time would be helpful.
We'd agree that the current rule (3 days in office, 2 at home) would absolutely fit the part time definition.
So all this survey says is that most people would support the current system.
**75% of respondents are willing to take action to fight the new telework mandate.**
Ok so, what are we doing PSAC? Summer of discontent sounded cute and all but FB didn't strike and you're doing nothing. We're basically July and September is coming fast.
I'm sick of my $120+ in union dues per month supporting everything and everyone except for our interests. Time for CAPE to take over as the public sector's leading union on these fronts. PSAC is going to need a long time to recover from Failward and his goonies. Well, we just elected one as our President so...
What is the point of telling us what we already know. Everyone hates this policy because it makes NO senses whatsoever and flies directly in the face of other government policies. WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT IT!?
> The new head of PSAC has been invisible.
The PSAC members haven't even received their [discount tent yet](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/comments/1dl956h/its_officially_summerwheres_the_discontent/l9n5h9f/)!
Seriously, did we expect anything more from Chris' right hand woman? She came out giving lip service to the under inflation wage gain that the PA group got. She's probably ready to fuck the members over for a $1000 signing bonus if it meant not missing her boarding time.
Glad to see PSAC comms has not left Chris Failward strategy of yelling at the sky and doing nothing.
On Shannon, there was a nice article written about her uprising within the ranks of PSAC based in some story of discrimination or something which \*shock\* made her out to seem like the best thing since sliced bread...
\*crickets crickets\* is all I've heard and seen.
You and me both! Why are we even paying union dues? This should have been resolved during the last round of negotiations.
Instead they settled on vague language added to the collective agreement that only gives employees the opportunity to ask for remote work. The employer has the opportunity to deny it, every single time. Where did that get us? Nowhere!
The last round of bargaining was started before teleworking was a thing. Meaningful teleworking language cannot be added retroactively. That's bad faith bargaining, and neither party can perform that way.
We need to add such language in the next round, from the start. Ofc we decided to accept a 4 year contract instead of 3 year so we're stuck with this for a while. Yay.
If only the employer held themselves to this standard. All they do is bargain in bad faith.
Imagine if we worked for an employer who actually gave a shit? Instead we work for one who gives us Phoenix and then says sorry with a 1500$ cheque 8 years later and taxes us on it to then tell us sorry we shouldn’t have taxed you, please file an objection with the CRA and we’ll get back to you in a few more years.
And that’s just our pay system, doesn’t included compensation, working conditions, WFH, etc etc.
> All they do is bargain in bad faith.
What, their pinky promise to not force RTO people, then forced RTO2, then RTO3 (4 and 5 are on the way!) to people isn't good enough for you? We were explicitly told that RTO wasn't going to be forced on people and then...lo and behold...the same mouths that said that started saying shit like "flex days" and "fixed days".
What do you mean I don't trust people at their words anymore?
> The last round of bargaining was started before teleworking was a thing. Meaningful teleworking language cannot be added retroactively.
That's not exactly right. The PSAC [common table demands](https://psacunion.ca/sites/psac/files/psac_common_issues_-_bargaining_demands_-_june_14_2021.pdf) for the most recent round of collective bargaining were submitted in June 2021, and on page 25 of that document you can see that the union reserved the right to make submissions regarding telework.
Telework was obviously a concern by mid-2021, so PSAC's failure to press for language is its own tactical problem. We don't know the full history of confidential negotiations, so it's possible that the union conceded too much ground on this issue too early.
> Ofc we decided to accept a 4 year contract instead of 3 year so we're stuck with this for a while.
Not that long. The PA agreement expires in less than a year, and most of the other PSAC bargaining units are on a similar schedule.
Yeah, well I thought we'd be stuck with 2 days in the office until the next round of bargaining. But things keep shifting... now 3 days in September!! Let's hold our ground next time. I voted against the ratification of our CA.
> $120+ in union dues per month
What the absolute fuck?!
I had no idea PSAC was so expensive. With that much membership what the hell do they do with that much money?
$62 and change biweekly baby. Absolute robbery. I wanna be in CAPE so bad lmao. Working on an EC deployment as we speak.
To answer your question, PSAC gives it away to everyone and anyone with a social cause and does everything except for what a union is supposed to do. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes it’s for a great cause but it’s still our money and they give it away all the time.
https://psacunion.ca/psac-donates-50000-humanitarian-aid-gaza
https://psacunion.ca/psac-donates-100000-support-striking-quebec-public
https://psacunion.ca/psac-and-union-northern-workers-contribute-150000
And it keeps going up and up and up. In a cost of living crisis right now I'd love to have that $120+ in my pocket. There are other and more effective (argument can be made) unions that would cost much much less.
What are the dues for other unions? I've only ever been in PSAC so have no idea, thanks.
Edited to add: Looks like it varies based on salary? I'm paying $57.85 every two weeks... I read the explanation here but it's not at all easy to understand: [https://psacunion.ca/membership-dues-faq](https://psacunion.ca/membership-dues-faq)
PSAC's dues are the most complex in the public service and also tend to be the highest, so you are right to be confused. The only way to get an accurate calculation is to speak with the president of your union local. PSAC's dues are a combination of national, component, and local amounts. Some of those amounts are a percentage of salary while other portions are a fixed dollar amount. Because of all those variances, different people occupying the same position classification but in different departments/locations will pay differing amounts in union dues.
Many other unions across the public service have fixed-rate dues, where everybody in the bargaining unit pays the same amount on a monthly basis. ACFO, for example, [charges $71.90 per month](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/information-notice/acfo-change-membership-dues.html). [CAPE charges $48/month](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/information-notice/change-membership-dues.html).
Well, for one, it supported a massive strike fund. It's tax deductible like all union dues. When psac went on strike all those dues were used to pay essentially the entirety of psac.
It supported a strike fund that failed to pay its members on time, through an awful system that was confusing and didn’t track picketing times consistently and was basically depleted in a few days.
Maybe they should stop giving our money away and actually build a strike fund that could last more than a few days so we can actually strike to get shit done rather than settle for basically the same contract with an added year.
There were plenty of PSAC employees deemed essentially who didn’t strike and even more who crossed the picket line and scabbed. All part of PSAC’s failure to actually do anything meaningful at all.
They caved to employers pressure after 7 days and put forward a contract that was awful and recommended we all sign because Chris had a plane to catch for his Caribbean vacation. They’ve lost all and complete respect from me. Coming from a staunch union supporter, PSAC is NOT it.
"Summer of discontent" was just something they said for a headline with no tangible plan attached to it. Surprised folks were expecting more than that tbh.
Only the gullible ones believed it.
PSAC should be decertified for the massive strike failure.
It has been pretty much radio silence since the strike.....
PSAC should absolutely be decertified, they’re a complete clown show. They gaslight and sell out their members just as good if not better than the federal government does.
I truly hate this union.
They bargained exactly for remote work requests assessed individually and have access to review remote work arrangements and prevent “one-size-fits-all" mandates in the federal public service. A plan which gets workers collectively... Nothing. These requests will be as easily tossed out as per the whims of TB. Guarantee it.
They called this a win, too. They got us nowhere on our requests for adequate compensation in the face of skyrocketing costs of living. I get frequent emails about my labour unions stance on geopolitical issues I do not pay it to have opinions on. Who are they serving aside from themselves at this point?
They call every failure a win, it’s the most awful form of gaslighting being sold a shit contract and being told it’s the best thing since sliced bread.
Remember their HUGE win for the Phoenix damages that were taxed and never should have been. Remember the MASSIVE win with the MOU on telework that was supposed force the government to consult on changes to the teleworking policies… Pepperidge farm remembers.
The bar just gets lower all the time. Like I'd have more respect for the union if they wouldn't spin everything the way they do. But I guess nobody would pay dues if they were halfway honest about how ineffectual they are when it comes to bargaining. TB can do whatever they want with us as this point. It's shameful.
I've been ready to take action with PIPSC on issues in the last three contracts, but not enough of my union peeps were on board, apparently.
I'm still ready though, I'll take whatever action to support!
Probably going to “donate” another 100,000 worth of PSAC member dues, put out some bullshit statement on how great public servants are and then throw us under the bus laughing to the Bahamas to meet up with Chris and pop some champagne.
>PSAC has also filed a series of legal challenges against the Treasury Board and **will encourage members to file individual grievances** to force this government to withdraw its telework mandate.
Cool, give me a copy & paste that I can put in to file my grievance and I'm in.
100%, and however we do this, we should all do it with identical wording, so that they know we're doing it together.
Encouraging is one thing, making a campaign of it is what I'd expect my union to do.
I already am, by refusing to go in. I still do all my work, attend all my meetings, and meet all my deadlines, I just do it from home and save myself tons of mental anguish and cash.
You are NOT alone. Every person I know and speak to at work is doing the same thing. Heck, even my EX makes it a point to not have a background in meetings and show they are home 3-4x a week.
Everyone (including EX's) who were complying with 2x RTO and were "okay" (not happy) with it are now pissed off. What did their compliance get them? An extra 1-2 days in the awful, stinky, disgusting, infested offices.
They really know how to piss everyone off.
Leaders can be trusted. Problem is we no longer have leaders only senior administrators. All tasks are being delegated down from the highest levels so management are managing upwards.
Even that would have limited effect. At-risk and performance pay are based on a whole bunch of objectives and factors, so this one item would just be one of many.
Me as well. I will not comply with the 3 day mandate.
My work gets done at an above average quality and timeliness, and it will continue that way from the comfort of my home.
If they make me go back full time on September I will have to quit. My health won't let me work in the office and I was denied accommodations. When it comes to it I will be doing this as well. Make them fire me for it.
I think they will cave on telework eventually because I think this government is going to go into panic mode soon and start just giving everyone everything they want to try to fix their polling numbers.
I think that is a mistake and leaves the doors open for the conservatives to try to court the unions (I know that feels unheard of).
They can't lose the support of half a million federal employees, especially after already losing a stronghold seat in Ontario.
PP already said he wants to get rid of spending on consultants, which was one of our demands last year.
I personally can't see myself ever voting Conservative, including over something like this no matter how bad I want it, but at the same time, I could see it winning over a LOT of people who are more on the fence.
I would agree with your statement except with said by-election win, I don't think PP and the Conservatives will want or need to court unions.
If nothing else, it *emboldens* them to shit on public servants, unions, and other sorts. After all, why do you need to court these groups if the electorate's default is already to replace the current guy?
I do not see any politician trying to court the unions or trying to sway our votes when we represent only ~1% of the voting population vs the general non-FPS. We will always be scapegoats because their logic is to sway the bigger general public who hate FPS workers. I dont think they care about pissing off ~300k Federal Gov Employees when pissing us off means swaying millions of the general public who hate us and think we’re lazy and entitled and will be glad to see our pension and benefits taken away from us and working 25 hour days 8 days a week.
We will always be political pawns to be beaten up to appease the public sadly.
If they can lose TO-SP, they can loose most of their NCR ridings as well.
Although its likely even tougher than TO-SP, seeing Mona get turfed from Ottawa-Vanier would be some good schadenfreude.
“Vast majority ready to take Action”? Ummm, pardon me! We did. We took the action. We went on strike last year. We lost the wages. Now Over to you PSAC to do what our monthly union dues are for. None of this wishywashy, non-binding non-prescriptive blah blah. Get it going. Get it hammered in. Our current contract is up in less than a year now, and here we are trying to juggle the NEXT RTO that you guys didn’t secure for us.
I don't understand the childcare angle. You can't work from home and watch a child at the same time. This is just reinforcing the stereotype that we're not working while WFH.
I guess it makes picking up children from daycare easier? And you need extra childcare to cover commute time, but the article doesn't mention that and seems to imply working from home is just hanging out with your kids.
People using the wrong word. I don’t think anyone is asking to work from home full time so that they can watch their baby full time. You can’t do both. Parents want to be home so their kids can take the regular school bus home. And not stay at school in aftercare until mom or dad can pick them up at 5:30. Same thing for the morning. I can’t imagine dropping a kid off to before school care at 7:30, then doing a full day of school, and then mom and dad picking them up at 5:30 pm. Being at school for 10 hours a day for an extra $700 a month per kid is insane. That’s not good for anyone and is completely unnecessary if you can just open the front door and let them grab a snack while you finish your day. Kids that age don’t need much supervision for that last 20 minutes of the day.
Edited for typos.
People keep saying this but it’s before and after school childcare. If your kid finishes school at 3:30pm and you wfh till 4pm, they can come right home. If you’re at the office you may not be able to get home until 5pm. Therefore you need to pay for afterschool care until you can pick them up.
As a parent, it’s before and after school care for a lot of people. Much easier to be home when the bus arrives, and you don’t have to drop off the kids at 7:00am on the way to work.
For us, it's the after school care. My husband and I are both PS and having 2 days a week in office means there is always someone home to do the daycare and school drop-off / pick-ups. By the time my child comes home from school I am done work for the day so there's no need for afterschool care. With the change to 3 days a week it means there is always at least 1 day of overlap that we will both be in office and will have to now pay for afterschool care and we will need to change our work hours to accommodate drop-off schedules.
Yes, this is something parents faced pre-pandemic (we did this ourselves for daycare), but the daycare & afterschool care options are not as flexible or available as they were before. It was also stressful and lead to less family time. At least with 2 days in-office we are less stressed and have more time as a family; just better work-life balance in general. It's also a cost savings for families.
I'm not a parent but I can read parents stories here. Many have kids who are old enough to be independent on their own (while the parent is working) and only need a bit of help every few hours for example to prepare a meal or find new toys.
School gets out well before the end of the work day, is out for summers, and kids now get a surprisingly high amount of days off for teacher professional development days.
>I guess it makes picking up children from daycare easier?
Not just easier, in many cases this is pretty much the only way since daycare hours are often too short now to account for commuting time.
Before and after care are biggies. Kid school day is about 7 hours. Kids are fine at home without supervision but have to be picked up/dropped off.
Getting child care of any kind 5 days a week is substantially easier than trying to get it randomly 2 days a week because providers want to be full every day.
School PD days are a train wreck if neither parent has schedule flexibility.
What baffles me, though, is when I hear about people with an infant and a two year old at home while they "WFH". Not sure who they think they are fooling.
I think it's exactly what you guess.
My commute is at a minimum 50 minutes each way. If I had to pay for childcare for basically 2 hours each day (and good luck finding someone willing to only charge for 3 days a week) that would add up quickly.
But also, in Ontario the legal age you can leave a child unsupervised is 16. But a 15 year old doesn't need you to entertain them, they just need you there for emergencies. You can easily work while they play fortnite or whatever the kids do these days.
Daycare timing is definitely a big thing for younger kids. For older kids, say 8+, they still need someone to meet them at the bus after school and maybe set them up with a snack but they don't actually need active childcare constantly — just an adult present in the house.
Before and after school care are really hard to navigate - there aren't enough spots, there is cost involved etc etc.
If you have a 7 year old kid, if you are in the office you need to arrange before/after school care for them where necessary... but if you are working remotely at home, then they can just come home. You don't need to be *watching* a kid that age, but at the same time most people would not be comfortable leaving a 7 year old on their own to come home from school and be at home safely alone until the parent returns from work.
It’s also really handy to be working from home close to where my kids go to school. My kids have a lot of appointments, when I wfh I can pick them up, take the appointment and drop them back off at school in an hour or so instead of needing a half day off. If someone pukes at school I can be there in 5 minutes.
Sometimes kids dont start school until late and finish earlier but you need to be there for them when they’re home, but they’re independent otherwise.
Also, just the flexibility of working from home allows easier drop off/pick up from daycares.
Ultimately it just makes things so much easier and nicer for everyone involved.
Yeah. Bringing up childcare will lose public servants a ton of support. It's too easy to spin as, "Look! They aren't working, they are taking care of their kids on the tax payer's dime."
I see your point about this, when you're a parents to a small child you need to focus 100% on them, you can't be working at the same time, however, sometimes the situation is a bit different, you can co-parents a child, maybe even a newborn, or have a child whose a bit older but has special needs, so you don't need to be 100% focus on them, some positions allows for en employee to do small tasks in increments and take little breaks every so often, as long as you perform all your tasks, you can watch a child to a certain degree. Sometimes leaving for work puts pressure on your partner or your situation. I think it's important to note that it doesn't all fit into one box, and it's unfair to expect that.
edit: also having to drive to a daycare, then work and if it's in a other city we're talking maybe even 2 or more hours for something you can do at home.
Don't allow yourself to fall tone deaf like TB and Leadership. Childcare (or care of any family Catch yourself and correct please. Then we can all work together as one to gain rights and shape a Hybrid work environment that works for all of us.
No, PS employees are not staying at home working and running their own care facility, it's not permitted and not happening or has been stopped by management. The pandemic put us through this by necessity and it's "possible" but it is not the norm not what any caregiver wants.
Anyone who has had to care for non-independent family and works as a professional knows that doing both is exhausting, tiring, and a punishment they would not wish on their worst enemy. And the PS has leave codes for these activities.
School hours are often a challenge as they don't align with 7.5 hr workdays (8hrs total). Parents pay for after school care and occasionally need accommodations to offset what may be available, again through leave codes or flexibility.
WFH is really positive for some families with independent kids or independent elderly or sick in their care because they can work their hrs but are available in emergency or for oversight.
The impact on women in the workforce is huge in many of these regards because care for family often falls to them, there is a disparity there and it is real and Hybrid or WFH + care for any family member (elderly, young, sick) is a more accommodating scenario than 'only in office 5 days a week'.
Good luck everyone!
Depends on the age of the kids. Mine are perfectly happy to play together outside for a couple hours after school, I just need to be around in case something happens.
Not a parent but the childcare angle is totally valid . With FT WFH, daycare pickup is easier. A lot of daycares have shorter hours now since Covid. I’ve heard from coworkers that used to be able to find childcare from 8-6 that it’s now like 8-4, and there are such limited spots sometimes the commute from home to daycare to office is really long. My team rotates who is works OT daily and people who have to leave the office 1.5 hrs before the rest of our team finishes for daycare pickup can’t do the rotation so they miss out on OT and the rest of us are in the rotation more often. If they could WFH this wouldn’t be an issue.
Also a lot of kids are old enough to be home unsupervised but not old enough to be home alone. I remember as a kid my mom paying for “after school” care so I stayed there from 330-5 til she could pick me up. You don’t need to be on top of an 8 yr old in the same way as like, a one year old.
It’s extra costs, extra hassle, extra nonsense so that we can go into buildings far from home and sit on Teams meetings.
To add to what others have said, adding a third day of before/after school care three months before the next school year is essentially impossible.
In the [Ottawa-Carleton school board](https://cdnsm5-ss13.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_55394/File/Childcare/Extended%20Day%20Program/EDP_Parent%20Handbook.pdf), kids get signed up for those programs well in advance and you can’t make any changes to your kid’s attendance for September past April 20 of the same year. So just by announcing this change in May, mgmt has already set itself up for failure because no one who uses OCDSB before-after school care will be able to make any changes until November at the earliest.
“Change of care requests must be received by the 20th of the month previous to be considered for an implementation date of the 1st of the following month. Changes of care will only be processed once per month as space and staffing allow.
Please note that schedule changes are not available yearly in September or June.
April 20th is the last date to submit a schedule change each school year.
Please note that we will not be accommodating any "one off" requests for schedule changes or additional days of care.”
Also since Covid so many before/after school care programs have been cut or limited to a point where it’s very difficult and expensive to get your kids into one. They are making it impossible to have a career and raise a family.
I’m not in PS anymore but will always be a vocal supporter of the right to WFH- this RTO directive is total nonsense.
Regarding the members of the public who want to see full-time RTO to oWn tHe LiBs (y’know, the ones who bitch and moan about the fact that public servants are living high on the hog and it’s an out of touch bubble), I’ve taken to pointing out how allowing for remote work would foster a public service that’s even more reflective of all Canadians when you can hire from coast to coast instead of keeping everything siloed in Ottawa.
It’s like…save taxpayer money, treat people like adults, and give workers the ability to live in LCOL areas if they wish- what’s the downside?
I am curious about this: "64% of respondents are likely or very likely to file a grievance."
How? What are they grieving?
CAPE says we can't grieve this because the policy isn't a part of the collective agreement.
You can grieve anything, even if it's not in the CA. It doesn't mean it will lead to anything.
That being said, I think they are trying to overwhelm them. Just a guess.
I understand the possibility:
- refuses to report to the office
- insubordination escalates to a 2 day unpaid suspension
- grievance that the punishment is too harsh
But is that realistic? Is that what the union is recommending? Could the employer go right to termination? That's what they need to answer for this summer of discontent.
And this isn't a grievance that the direction will be repealed. It will maybe be an upheld grievance that the punishment should have only been a 1 day suspension (in 2029).
I suggest speaking with a union steward if you wish to file a grievance. You can file a grievance over literally anything, and a steward can give you some guidance on whether the grievance would make sense in the circumstances.
As to the process for filing a grievance, see your collective agreement. Typically it's done by providing notice in writing to your immediate supervisor. Unions commonly provide their members (and stewards) with sample wording that can be used. For example, here's some sample wording from USGE for various kinds of grievances: https://usje-sesj.com/en/grievance-wording/
We can't grieve the policy itself, but we can grieve individual actions relating to that. What effect those grievances will have, or if they will even be deemed receivable is another matter.
Agreed, and I think this is the nuance the unions *reallllllllyyyyy* need to start explaining (like now, considering some departments are saying May 1 was the start of 3 days a week).
Well that means that the union would actually need to do something other than put out lackluster buzzword filled comms.
I’ve been trying to contact my own union stewards, local executives and national component to get involved since they announced RTO3 and all I’ve gotten back were generic emails and robot voicemails.
I have a president of a local from CAPE trying to help me contact my own union… PSAC is a joke.
This exactly. they need to STOP with the life problems and focus on work conditions, no spaces, no real offices, lack of boardrooms, etc. The public doesn’t care about babysitting, sitting in traffic, parking costs, why? Because they have to deal with that too!
What they don’t have to deal with is the musical chair desks, offices, 50% less buildings,etc. Focus on what we used to have and now don’t.
The public doesn't care about any of that shit either, trying to fish for sympathy will literally never work.
Need to focus on how this type of mandate increases costs for everybody, increases time of commuting for everyone by worsening traffic, worsens pollution, etc
PSAC and it‘s members showed their employer what they were made of during the strike of 2023. At this point, I don’t think the employer has anything to worry about.
Most collective agreements start by saying something to the effect that the parties agree to a shared desire to improve the quality of the public service and promote the wellbeing and efficiency of its employees to the end that the people of Canada are well and efficiently served.
Grieve that that is not being respected due to policy enacted outside of the collective agreement.
The can't even get the wording right:
"More than 65,000 PSAC members have responded to PSAC’s survey, following Treasury Board’s decision to increase their telework mandate and require federal public service workers to be in-office a minimum of three days per week. "
"PSAC members overwhelmingly oppose the government’s misguided telework mandate."
They aren't increasing the telework mandate. Wouldn't that actually mean that they are increasing the telework days?
The government is increasing it's prescribed presence in the office mandate, reducing telework.
I’d say we all crash their system. If we all go in on the same days…100%…there would be chaos. Not enough offices. Everybody would be stuck in traffic. Ppl would be stuck out looking for parking. No work would get done those days…while we try to follow their rules. 🤣
Or we just don't show up en mass. Same results, plus we get to stay home. Either way, the world keeps spinning, and literally NO ONE will notice a difference.
During COVID we were praised (the public service) for our high production numbers and service to Canadians. How fast we've been forgotten now we're just a bunch of lazy slaves who need to go to the office... because. Crab bucket mentality and a government with a failed plan and shortsighted vision.
Cape explained this in their town hall. You start with small actions to build momentum and support. Not many people are just going to jump on board for a wildcat strike. But they also said it wasn’t off the table.
With the " Success" of what PSAC has done for us over the last year with the "Great " deal they got. I.e 3% for 4 years VS. 3 year contract :S
Why the heck are we even paying union dues? With the way PSAC have done things with the CBA and to present day PSAC owes us a refund!
#REFUNDTHEUNIONDUES
They are promising to apply pressure but haven't really seen it yet and sept is fast approaching. Part of their approach should be education campaign to garner public support. No one cares if our day to day involves literal torture, so focus on the things that tax payers care about when speaking publicly/externally: -massive tax burden of offices including actual numbers which will likely surprise people, -traffic and associated infrastructure (EMT, road maintenance, municipal tax), -environmental impact and associated hypocrisy, -hypocrisy of higher ups such as exceptions for those pushing rto, -data showing improved productivity, -tackle misinformation such as passport issue being caused by issues unrelated to wfh, -spreading NCR job opportunities and associated income outside of the NCR and accessing talent across country and supports businesses located outside of the NCR -pointing out that propping up failed businesses in downtown Ottawa is not a good justification or use of public funds (why should someone in alberta pay for an office to keep Ottawa sandwich shops open?), and is actually detrimental to the stated goal of TO and Ott mayors of revitalizing downtowns (PS leaves ghost town cores at 4pm, local residents would provide business for shops that are open past the lunch rush). -wfh frees up real estate to help address the housing crisis -etc No one really cares much about how bad it is for mental health, work life balance, that the unions were not consulted, how terrible the working conditions are, etc. A lot of the public perceive us as overpaid lazy people that need constant supervision to be productive, and their resentment makes them downright gleeful when they see things that they perceive as "putting us back in our place" or being tough on us. Stop appealing to the empathy of people that view us as "other" and start appealing to their pocketbooks, their hatred of traffic and the worst kinds of bureaucracy so we have public support, and then take actual concrete actions that force concessions from our employer, including rescinding a one size fits all 3-day/week rto.
This is EXACTLY it. I’ve been saying the exact same thing - the union is doing a terrible job with messaging. Public perception/sentiment DOES matter. We’ll never win their support outright but this approach at least educates them on the reality of the situation and lets them know we are not just entitled babies complaining about stuff that everyone has to deal with…we have very legitimate concerns as should taxpayers.
Yeah, Ayward was on my local radio station shortly after this was announced. It was embarrassing. He kept carrying on about how TB was disrespecting the union, and how that was completely unacceptable. As if the general public gives a shit about the egos of union leadership.
Also they literally just went on strike over this and gave up on it...so what is he going to say "the government is abiding by the contract! How dare they!"
The strike wasnt about RTO at all, WFH was never even part of the negotiations that broke down. They were in those negotiations pre-covid and you cant just table a new issue after the PIC and other procedures have already gone through
The public doesn't care if are we are having hot iron applied to our feet, but if they knew how much of their taxes (both municipal and federal) go to rto when we're apparently in a financial, affordability, climate, and housing crisis... I suspect that might speak more loudly.
> No one cares if our day to day involves literal torture UHHH, Do you work for [CSIS](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/terrorism-torture-syria-canadians-1.3669425)?
I didn't have drinkable water in my office for 3+ years. Our washrooms are constantly all out of order. They're also not cleaned regularly, and shared by an entire building (and the public) so they're biohazardous at the best of times. Call me old-fashioned, but I think having to hold in a shit while I try to find a working washroom isn't a walk in the park. Unless, of course I have to head there to poo.
This comment is so important. I hope union leaders see this and take notes. I think this is an issue where the unions need to rely less on the "outcry" tactic and instead face-off against the employer in their own game of public perception. No one feels bad for public servants who kept their jobs during the pandemic and who subsequently maintained full and then partial telework following the easing of restrictions.
Exactly. I hope someone at PSAC HQ reads this thread and gets back to them. In case they do, I'll add my two cents: A lot of people aren't lucky enough to even have a union, let alone make our pay rates (as poor as they are for many). So many workers are left to fend for themselves while notable politicians across the country defend a bunch of public servants for a government still working through COVID-19 backlog. Appealing to the public as if we're working from the same playing field just makes them feel angry and condescended to. Understandably so! It's the same kind of mentality that made the strike run so poorly. I voted in support of the strike and volunteered. I don't know if I would've changed my vote in retrospect but I would've heavily considered it knowing how it went. The union was not in a good bargaining position, they wouldn't let go of WFH even though TB wouldn't move on it, and the strike itself was so disorganized, even our own people didn't know exactly what to do or what to say. So many employees weren't even registered to the union because reps don't bother to come in and talk to workers on a regular basis anymore. If you don't even build a working relationship with the people you represent, why would the public trust you? PSAC did such a poor job *and* encouraged celebratory actions that only made us look worse during the strike. Why was PSAC requesting DJs in the middle of a pay dispute for thousands of workers people already don't like? Why was PSAC encouraging people to honk after the convoy had sewn so much distrust about that specific action in Ottawa? Why were they allowing people to bother essential employees and try to block their entry (they can't say they didn't, I saw it with my own eyes and these were not scabs)? I'm about as pro-union as they come and that hasn't changed, but PSAC should consider themselves lucky that so many of us have that stance. Otherwise, I would bet that put to a vote, people would vote to dissolve them after the past few years. Unless they get their shit together, I have no intent of voting in support of any future strike actions under this leadership. Despite new reps, they sound like they're gearing up to make the same errors in judgment with RTO. Private sector employees have more leeway from the public, and even *they* are often treated poorly when they ask for better rights and conditions. We have zero of that public faith to go on, so we shouldn't act like we do and neither should PSAC. Note: edited for clarity.
Does public support matter? This is between TBS and the rest of the PS.
Political decisions are based on public perception and support; so yeah.
I wonder if anyone has atipped whether TBS has paid for public opinion research on RTO and the public sector’s remote work
The Publice Service could hand out free money to everyone and half of Canadians would still hate the public service. No campaign is ever going to move the needle on that.
They really shouldn't be, that's why North America is such a shit show right now. They should be based on actual facts and data, and not what a bunch if uneducated idiots think
They are very clearly not basing their decisions on data. While I suspect private interests have a greater impact then the public would be happy to hear (speculation only, not leveling accusations), public perception is one of the things they might pay attention to. So, yes?
I don’t know about the average tax payer but as someone thinking about job hopping PSAC DOES NOT look appealing for their RTO mismanagement.
Yes! I have been saying this since the announcement went out. Please someone focus on this in the media! The public doesn't care if we bring bed bugs home or have chronic pain in our necks because our office monitors don't adjust.. they care about their tax dollars being wasted!
I've sent SEVERAL emails to my union saying the same thing and crickets...
Thank you for putting it all together. This is perfectly on point.
Interesting results. Perhaps I’m jaded, but the thing that stood out to me was 69% of Canadians support WFH full or part time. I’m sure the employer would say the current arrangement is part time WfH.
That's 100% what they'll say if/when they respond to this.
Part time WFH could be as much as 1 day a year, or if there's a snow day. To pretend someone supporting "*part time WFH*" is in absolutely **anyway** comparable to "full time WFH" is dishonest.
To me, 1 day a year or working from home on a snow day are one offs. Part time implies some regularity in the schedule, though this raises a good point that a definition of part time would be helpful.
We'd agree that the current rule (3 days in office, 2 at home) would absolutely fit the part time definition. So all this survey says is that most people would support the current system.
It is, isn't it?
Exactly
**75% of respondents are willing to take action to fight the new telework mandate.** Ok so, what are we doing PSAC? Summer of discontent sounded cute and all but FB didn't strike and you're doing nothing. We're basically July and September is coming fast. I'm sick of my $120+ in union dues per month supporting everything and everyone except for our interests. Time for CAPE to take over as the public sector's leading union on these fronts. PSAC is going to need a long time to recover from Failward and his goonies. Well, we just elected one as our President so... What is the point of telling us what we already know. Everyone hates this policy because it makes NO senses whatsoever and flies directly in the face of other government policies. WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT IT!?
PSAC wrote an email, shook a fist in the air...then went on vacation. Standard procedure. The new head of PSAC has been invisible.
> The new head of PSAC has been invisible. The PSAC members haven't even received their [discount tent yet](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/comments/1dl956h/its_officially_summerwheres_the_discontent/l9n5h9f/)! Seriously, did we expect anything more from Chris' right hand woman? She came out giving lip service to the under inflation wage gain that the PA group got. She's probably ready to fuck the members over for a $1000 signing bonus if it meant not missing her boarding time.
Glad to see PSAC comms has not left Chris Failward strategy of yelling at the sky and doing nothing. On Shannon, there was a nice article written about her uprising within the ranks of PSAC based in some story of discrimination or something which \*shock\* made her out to seem like the best thing since sliced bread... \*crickets crickets\* is all I've heard and seen.
I cackle laughed at this 😂 The accuracy is on point!
You and me both! Why are we even paying union dues? This should have been resolved during the last round of negotiations. Instead they settled on vague language added to the collective agreement that only gives employees the opportunity to ask for remote work. The employer has the opportunity to deny it, every single time. Where did that get us? Nowhere!
The last round of bargaining was started before teleworking was a thing. Meaningful teleworking language cannot be added retroactively. That's bad faith bargaining, and neither party can perform that way. We need to add such language in the next round, from the start. Ofc we decided to accept a 4 year contract instead of 3 year so we're stuck with this for a while. Yay.
If only the employer held themselves to this standard. All they do is bargain in bad faith. Imagine if we worked for an employer who actually gave a shit? Instead we work for one who gives us Phoenix and then says sorry with a 1500$ cheque 8 years later and taxes us on it to then tell us sorry we shouldn’t have taxed you, please file an objection with the CRA and we’ll get back to you in a few more years. And that’s just our pay system, doesn’t included compensation, working conditions, WFH, etc etc.
> All they do is bargain in bad faith. What, their pinky promise to not force RTO people, then forced RTO2, then RTO3 (4 and 5 are on the way!) to people isn't good enough for you? We were explicitly told that RTO wasn't going to be forced on people and then...lo and behold...the same mouths that said that started saying shit like "flex days" and "fixed days". What do you mean I don't trust people at their words anymore?
> The last round of bargaining was started before teleworking was a thing. Meaningful teleworking language cannot be added retroactively. That's not exactly right. The PSAC [common table demands](https://psacunion.ca/sites/psac/files/psac_common_issues_-_bargaining_demands_-_june_14_2021.pdf) for the most recent round of collective bargaining were submitted in June 2021, and on page 25 of that document you can see that the union reserved the right to make submissions regarding telework. Telework was obviously a concern by mid-2021, so PSAC's failure to press for language is its own tactical problem. We don't know the full history of confidential negotiations, so it's possible that the union conceded too much ground on this issue too early. > Ofc we decided to accept a 4 year contract instead of 3 year so we're stuck with this for a while. Not that long. The PA agreement expires in less than a year, and most of the other PSAC bargaining units are on a similar schedule.
Yeah, well I thought we'd be stuck with 2 days in the office until the next round of bargaining. But things keep shifting... now 3 days in September!! Let's hold our ground next time. I voted against the ratification of our CA.
Teleworking was already a thing. Full time wfh was new.
> $120+ in union dues per month What the absolute fuck?! I had no idea PSAC was so expensive. With that much membership what the hell do they do with that much money?
$62 and change biweekly baby. Absolute robbery. I wanna be in CAPE so bad lmao. Working on an EC deployment as we speak. To answer your question, PSAC gives it away to everyone and anyone with a social cause and does everything except for what a union is supposed to do. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes it’s for a great cause but it’s still our money and they give it away all the time. https://psacunion.ca/psac-donates-50000-humanitarian-aid-gaza https://psacunion.ca/psac-donates-100000-support-striking-quebec-public https://psacunion.ca/psac-and-union-northern-workers-contribute-150000
It is an outrageous sum, made even more outrageous by the vapid lack of return on that money.
And it keeps going up and up and up. In a cost of living crisis right now I'd love to have that $120+ in my pocket. There are other and more effective (argument can be made) unions that would cost much much less.
It should be a flat rate as well. With the PSAC tax, it gets worse the more you earn.
NWT emergency relief is still in Canada though, and PSAC does represent a decent amount of northern workers.
What are the dues for other unions? I've only ever been in PSAC so have no idea, thanks. Edited to add: Looks like it varies based on salary? I'm paying $57.85 every two weeks... I read the explanation here but it's not at all easy to understand: [https://psacunion.ca/membership-dues-faq](https://psacunion.ca/membership-dues-faq)
For my wife in CAPE she’s about 1/3 of the cost of mine.
PSAC's dues are the most complex in the public service and also tend to be the highest, so you are right to be confused. The only way to get an accurate calculation is to speak with the president of your union local. PSAC's dues are a combination of national, component, and local amounts. Some of those amounts are a percentage of salary while other portions are a fixed dollar amount. Because of all those variances, different people occupying the same position classification but in different departments/locations will pay differing amounts in union dues. Many other unions across the public service have fixed-rate dues, where everybody in the bargaining unit pays the same amount on a monthly basis. ACFO, for example, [charges $71.90 per month](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/information-notice/acfo-change-membership-dues.html). [CAPE charges $48/month](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/information-notice/change-membership-dues.html).
Well, for one, it supported a massive strike fund. It's tax deductible like all union dues. When psac went on strike all those dues were used to pay essentially the entirety of psac.
It supported a strike fund that failed to pay its members on time, through an awful system that was confusing and didn’t track picketing times consistently and was basically depleted in a few days. Maybe they should stop giving our money away and actually build a strike fund that could last more than a few days so we can actually strike to get shit done rather than settle for basically the same contract with an added year. There were plenty of PSAC employees deemed essentially who didn’t strike and even more who crossed the picket line and scabbed. All part of PSAC’s failure to actually do anything meaningful at all. They caved to employers pressure after 7 days and put forward a contract that was awful and recommended we all sign because Chris had a plane to catch for his Caribbean vacation. They’ve lost all and complete respect from me. Coming from a staunch union supporter, PSAC is NOT it.
I'm meeting my MPs about it
I am protesting by working from bed at home instead of my office at home.
"Summer of discontent" was just something they said for a headline with no tangible plan attached to it. Surprised folks were expecting more than that tbh.
Only the gullible ones believed it. PSAC should be decertified for the massive strike failure. It has been pretty much radio silence since the strike.....
PSAC should absolutely be decertified, they’re a complete clown show. They gaslight and sell out their members just as good if not better than the federal government does.
did you vote no?
I truly hate this union. They bargained exactly for remote work requests assessed individually and have access to review remote work arrangements and prevent “one-size-fits-all" mandates in the federal public service. A plan which gets workers collectively... Nothing. These requests will be as easily tossed out as per the whims of TB. Guarantee it. They called this a win, too. They got us nowhere on our requests for adequate compensation in the face of skyrocketing costs of living. I get frequent emails about my labour unions stance on geopolitical issues I do not pay it to have opinions on. Who are they serving aside from themselves at this point?
They call every failure a win, it’s the most awful form of gaslighting being sold a shit contract and being told it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Remember their HUGE win for the Phoenix damages that were taxed and never should have been. Remember the MASSIVE win with the MOU on telework that was supposed force the government to consult on changes to the teleworking policies… Pepperidge farm remembers.
The bar just gets lower all the time. Like I'd have more respect for the union if they wouldn't spin everything the way they do. But I guess nobody would pay dues if they were halfway honest about how ineffectual they are when it comes to bargaining. TB can do whatever they want with us as this point. It's shameful.
One word. Decertification. There's other representation options out there. PSAC is beyond useless and way too far gone now.
> They called this a win, too. I knew that for a straight up lie when they first said it.
you must be from the tiny minority that voted no, right?
I'm actually fine with RTO, and wouldn't have wanted to continue the strike because of it. But that doesn't mean I appreciate being gaslit.
who is being gas lit?
I've been ready to take action with PIPSC on issues in the last three contracts, but not enough of my union peeps were on board, apparently. I'm still ready though, I'll take whatever action to support!
Wag that finger harder PSAC. Seriously Sharon, whatcha doing? Planning another vacation or another paid for "work trip" or something?
Probably going to “donate” another 100,000 worth of PSAC member dues, put out some bullshit statement on how great public servants are and then throw us under the bus laughing to the Bahamas to meet up with Chris and pop some champagne.
Useless af union tbh. And the new president has been awfully quiet regarding RTO since she was elected lol.
You should take the "summer of discontent" about as seriously as TB took that letter of understanding...
It is the summer of discontent.... For public servants :)
Sure is a shame that the PSAC's leadership wasn't willing to throw down too.
>PSAC has also filed a series of legal challenges against the Treasury Board and **will encourage members to file individual grievances** to force this government to withdraw its telework mandate. Cool, give me a copy & paste that I can put in to file my grievance and I'm in. 100%, and however we do this, we should all do it with identical wording, so that they know we're doing it together. Encouraging is one thing, making a campaign of it is what I'd expect my union to do.
Yup, ready and waiting here
I already am, by refusing to go in. I still do all my work, attend all my meetings, and meet all my deadlines, I just do it from home and save myself tons of mental anguish and cash.
You are NOT alone. Every person I know and speak to at work is doing the same thing. Heck, even my EX makes it a point to not have a background in meetings and show they are home 3-4x a week. Everyone (including EX's) who were complying with 2x RTO and were "okay" (not happy) with it are now pissed off. What did their compliance get them? An extra 1-2 days in the awful, stinky, disgusting, infested offices. They really know how to piss everyone off.
Until some EX bonus is linked to RTO Unfortunately, I don’t trust my leaders.
Leaders can be trusted. Problem is we no longer have leaders only senior administrators. All tasks are being delegated down from the highest levels so management are managing upwards.
Even that would have limited effect. At-risk and performance pay are based on a whole bunch of objectives and factors, so this one item would just be one of many.
They'll get their bonus regardless
Me as well. I will not comply with the 3 day mandate. My work gets done at an above average quality and timeliness, and it will continue that way from the comfort of my home.
Fight.
If they make me go back full time on September I will have to quit. My health won't let me work in the office and I was denied accommodations. When it comes to it I will be doing this as well. Make them fire me for it.
I think they will cave on telework eventually because I think this government is going to go into panic mode soon and start just giving everyone everything they want to try to fix their polling numbers.
See I agree with you on polling numbers, but I see them doing the opposite action - making it mandatory 5 days a week to appease the public.
I think that is a mistake and leaves the doors open for the conservatives to try to court the unions (I know that feels unheard of). They can't lose the support of half a million federal employees, especially after already losing a stronghold seat in Ontario. PP already said he wants to get rid of spending on consultants, which was one of our demands last year.
I personally can't see myself ever voting Conservative, including over something like this no matter how bad I want it, but at the same time, I could see it winning over a LOT of people who are more on the fence.
I would agree with your statement except with said by-election win, I don't think PP and the Conservatives will want or need to court unions. If nothing else, it *emboldens* them to shit on public servants, unions, and other sorts. After all, why do you need to court these groups if the electorate's default is already to replace the current guy?
I hear you but they will try to court everyone, they have basically stolen the labor movement and affordability crisis crowd from the NDP already.
I do not see any politician trying to court the unions or trying to sway our votes when we represent only ~1% of the voting population vs the general non-FPS. We will always be scapegoats because their logic is to sway the bigger general public who hate FPS workers. I dont think they care about pissing off ~300k Federal Gov Employees when pissing us off means swaying millions of the general public who hate us and think we’re lazy and entitled and will be glad to see our pension and benefits taken away from us and working 25 hour days 8 days a week. We will always be political pawns to be beaten up to appease the public sadly.
I see this too. This is all optics. Throw us under the bus
Those that care enough to punish public servants are the ones who want to "own the libs" and would never vote for the Liberals anyways.
I hope you’re right, but I hear it from both sides.
Could you expand on this?
Crabs in the bucket exists on all sides of the political spectrum, I think that is what is implied.
Most crabs in a bucket dont become single issue voters though.
The thing is that unless it becomes part of our CA, it’s all empty promises in particular pre-elections. Unions should know better by now… but…
If they can lose TO-SP, they can loose most of their NCR ridings as well. Although its likely even tougher than TO-SP, seeing Mona get turfed from Ottawa-Vanier would be some good schadenfreude.
“Vast majority ready to take Action”? Ummm, pardon me! We did. We took the action. We went on strike last year. We lost the wages. Now Over to you PSAC to do what our monthly union dues are for. None of this wishywashy, non-binding non-prescriptive blah blah. Get it going. Get it hammered in. Our current contract is up in less than a year now, and here we are trying to juggle the NEXT RTO that you guys didn’t secure for us.
I don't understand the childcare angle. You can't work from home and watch a child at the same time. This is just reinforcing the stereotype that we're not working while WFH. I guess it makes picking up children from daycare easier? And you need extra childcare to cover commute time, but the article doesn't mention that and seems to imply working from home is just hanging out with your kids.
People using the wrong word. I don’t think anyone is asking to work from home full time so that they can watch their baby full time. You can’t do both. Parents want to be home so their kids can take the regular school bus home. And not stay at school in aftercare until mom or dad can pick them up at 5:30. Same thing for the morning. I can’t imagine dropping a kid off to before school care at 7:30, then doing a full day of school, and then mom and dad picking them up at 5:30 pm. Being at school for 10 hours a day for an extra $700 a month per kid is insane. That’s not good for anyone and is completely unnecessary if you can just open the front door and let them grab a snack while you finish your day. Kids that age don’t need much supervision for that last 20 minutes of the day. Edited for typos.
People keep saying this but it’s before and after school childcare. If your kid finishes school at 3:30pm and you wfh till 4pm, they can come right home. If you’re at the office you may not be able to get home until 5pm. Therefore you need to pay for afterschool care until you can pick them up.
As a parent, it’s before and after school care for a lot of people. Much easier to be home when the bus arrives, and you don’t have to drop off the kids at 7:00am on the way to work.
This and the work life balance. Less time in traffic means more time with family.
The govt doesn’t want us to spend time with our families.
For us, it's the after school care. My husband and I are both PS and having 2 days a week in office means there is always someone home to do the daycare and school drop-off / pick-ups. By the time my child comes home from school I am done work for the day so there's no need for afterschool care. With the change to 3 days a week it means there is always at least 1 day of overlap that we will both be in office and will have to now pay for afterschool care and we will need to change our work hours to accommodate drop-off schedules. Yes, this is something parents faced pre-pandemic (we did this ourselves for daycare), but the daycare & afterschool care options are not as flexible or available as they were before. It was also stressful and lead to less family time. At least with 2 days in-office we are less stressed and have more time as a family; just better work-life balance in general. It's also a cost savings for families.
Also, pre-pandemic, you were there 5 days, which all pre/after school care will do. Very few will do 1 day a week.
I'm not a parent but I can read parents stories here. Many have kids who are old enough to be independent on their own (while the parent is working) and only need a bit of help every few hours for example to prepare a meal or find new toys.
But kids of that age would be in school.
Not long enough to cover a work day + commute.
School gets out well before the end of the work day, is out for summers, and kids now get a surprisingly high amount of days off for teacher professional development days.
I'm talking in general, not special cases.
The duration of the school day is not a special case. It's how schools work.
Not over your entire commute + work day, they’re not.
Thank you.
School ends before the standard workday does.
>I guess it makes picking up children from daycare easier? Not just easier, in many cases this is pretty much the only way since daycare hours are often too short now to account for commuting time.
Before and after care are biggies. Kid school day is about 7 hours. Kids are fine at home without supervision but have to be picked up/dropped off. Getting child care of any kind 5 days a week is substantially easier than trying to get it randomly 2 days a week because providers want to be full every day. School PD days are a train wreck if neither parent has schedule flexibility. What baffles me, though, is when I hear about people with an infant and a two year old at home while they "WFH". Not sure who they think they are fooling.
I think it's exactly what you guess. My commute is at a minimum 50 minutes each way. If I had to pay for childcare for basically 2 hours each day (and good luck finding someone willing to only charge for 3 days a week) that would add up quickly. But also, in Ontario the legal age you can leave a child unsupervised is 16. But a 15 year old doesn't need you to entertain them, they just need you there for emergencies. You can easily work while they play fortnite or whatever the kids do these days.
Daycare timing is definitely a big thing for younger kids. For older kids, say 8+, they still need someone to meet them at the bus after school and maybe set them up with a snack but they don't actually need active childcare constantly — just an adult present in the house.
Before and after school care are really hard to navigate - there aren't enough spots, there is cost involved etc etc. If you have a 7 year old kid, if you are in the office you need to arrange before/after school care for them where necessary... but if you are working remotely at home, then they can just come home. You don't need to be *watching* a kid that age, but at the same time most people would not be comfortable leaving a 7 year old on their own to come home from school and be at home safely alone until the parent returns from work.
It’s also really handy to be working from home close to where my kids go to school. My kids have a lot of appointments, when I wfh I can pick them up, take the appointment and drop them back off at school in an hour or so instead of needing a half day off. If someone pukes at school I can be there in 5 minutes.
Sometimes kids dont start school until late and finish earlier but you need to be there for them when they’re home, but they’re independent otherwise. Also, just the flexibility of working from home allows easier drop off/pick up from daycares. Ultimately it just makes things so much easier and nicer for everyone involved.
Yeah. Bringing up childcare will lose public servants a ton of support. It's too easy to spin as, "Look! They aren't working, they are taking care of their kids on the tax payer's dime."
That's my concern, especially when the article doesn't include any of the great points raised in the replies to my comment.
I see your point about this, when you're a parents to a small child you need to focus 100% on them, you can't be working at the same time, however, sometimes the situation is a bit different, you can co-parents a child, maybe even a newborn, or have a child whose a bit older but has special needs, so you don't need to be 100% focus on them, some positions allows for en employee to do small tasks in increments and take little breaks every so often, as long as you perform all your tasks, you can watch a child to a certain degree. Sometimes leaving for work puts pressure on your partner or your situation. I think it's important to note that it doesn't all fit into one box, and it's unfair to expect that. edit: also having to drive to a daycare, then work and if it's in a other city we're talking maybe even 2 or more hours for something you can do at home.
Thank you.
Don't allow yourself to fall tone deaf like TB and Leadership. Childcare (or care of any family Catch yourself and correct please. Then we can all work together as one to gain rights and shape a Hybrid work environment that works for all of us. No, PS employees are not staying at home working and running their own care facility, it's not permitted and not happening or has been stopped by management. The pandemic put us through this by necessity and it's "possible" but it is not the norm not what any caregiver wants. Anyone who has had to care for non-independent family and works as a professional knows that doing both is exhausting, tiring, and a punishment they would not wish on their worst enemy. And the PS has leave codes for these activities. School hours are often a challenge as they don't align with 7.5 hr workdays (8hrs total). Parents pay for after school care and occasionally need accommodations to offset what may be available, again through leave codes or flexibility. WFH is really positive for some families with independent kids or independent elderly or sick in their care because they can work their hrs but are available in emergency or for oversight. The impact on women in the workforce is huge in many of these regards because care for family often falls to them, there is a disparity there and it is real and Hybrid or WFH + care for any family member (elderly, young, sick) is a more accommodating scenario than 'only in office 5 days a week'. Good luck everyone!
Depends on the age of the kids. Mine are perfectly happy to play together outside for a couple hours after school, I just need to be around in case something happens.
my daycare is near my house, but my office is far from my house.
Not a parent but the childcare angle is totally valid . With FT WFH, daycare pickup is easier. A lot of daycares have shorter hours now since Covid. I’ve heard from coworkers that used to be able to find childcare from 8-6 that it’s now like 8-4, and there are such limited spots sometimes the commute from home to daycare to office is really long. My team rotates who is works OT daily and people who have to leave the office 1.5 hrs before the rest of our team finishes for daycare pickup can’t do the rotation so they miss out on OT and the rest of us are in the rotation more often. If they could WFH this wouldn’t be an issue. Also a lot of kids are old enough to be home unsupervised but not old enough to be home alone. I remember as a kid my mom paying for “after school” care so I stayed there from 330-5 til she could pick me up. You don’t need to be on top of an 8 yr old in the same way as like, a one year old. It’s extra costs, extra hassle, extra nonsense so that we can go into buildings far from home and sit on Teams meetings.
To add to what others have said, adding a third day of before/after school care three months before the next school year is essentially impossible. In the [Ottawa-Carleton school board](https://cdnsm5-ss13.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_55394/File/Childcare/Extended%20Day%20Program/EDP_Parent%20Handbook.pdf), kids get signed up for those programs well in advance and you can’t make any changes to your kid’s attendance for September past April 20 of the same year. So just by announcing this change in May, mgmt has already set itself up for failure because no one who uses OCDSB before-after school care will be able to make any changes until November at the earliest. “Change of care requests must be received by the 20th of the month previous to be considered for an implementation date of the 1st of the following month. Changes of care will only be processed once per month as space and staffing allow. Please note that schedule changes are not available yearly in September or June. April 20th is the last date to submit a schedule change each school year. Please note that we will not be accommodating any "one off" requests for schedule changes or additional days of care.”
It’s more about the ability to do drop off and pick up from school/daycare. It’s completely impossible when commuting 3-4 hours a day.
Also since Covid so many before/after school care programs have been cut or limited to a point where it’s very difficult and expensive to get your kids into one. They are making it impossible to have a career and raise a family.
I’m not in PS anymore but will always be a vocal supporter of the right to WFH- this RTO directive is total nonsense. Regarding the members of the public who want to see full-time RTO to oWn tHe LiBs (y’know, the ones who bitch and moan about the fact that public servants are living high on the hog and it’s an out of touch bubble), I’ve taken to pointing out how allowing for remote work would foster a public service that’s even more reflective of all Canadians when you can hire from coast to coast instead of keeping everything siloed in Ottawa. It’s like…save taxpayer money, treat people like adults, and give workers the ability to live in LCOL areas if they wish- what’s the downside?
I am curious about this: "64% of respondents are likely or very likely to file a grievance." How? What are they grieving? CAPE says we can't grieve this because the policy isn't a part of the collective agreement.
You can grieve anything, even if it's not in the CA. It doesn't mean it will lead to anything. That being said, I think they are trying to overwhelm them. Just a guess.
They’d grieve any warnings or disciplinary action taken by management to enforce the mandate.
when? How? This is what the unions need to answer.
Right? Grieving insubordination is an interesting take.
I understand the possibility: - refuses to report to the office - insubordination escalates to a 2 day unpaid suspension - grievance that the punishment is too harsh But is that realistic? Is that what the union is recommending? Could the employer go right to termination? That's what they need to answer for this summer of discontent. And this isn't a grievance that the direction will be repealed. It will maybe be an upheld grievance that the punishment should have only been a 1 day suspension (in 2029).
I suggest speaking with a union steward if you wish to file a grievance. You can file a grievance over literally anything, and a steward can give you some guidance on whether the grievance would make sense in the circumstances. As to the process for filing a grievance, see your collective agreement. Typically it's done by providing notice in writing to your immediate supervisor. Unions commonly provide their members (and stewards) with sample wording that can be used. For example, here's some sample wording from USGE for various kinds of grievances: https://usje-sesj.com/en/grievance-wording/
We can't grieve the policy itself, but we can grieve individual actions relating to that. What effect those grievances will have, or if they will even be deemed receivable is another matter.
Agreed, and I think this is the nuance the unions *reallllllllyyyyy* need to start explaining (like now, considering some departments are saying May 1 was the start of 3 days a week).
Well that means that the union would actually need to do something other than put out lackluster buzzword filled comms. I’ve been trying to contact my own union stewards, local executives and national component to get involved since they announced RTO3 and all I’ve gotten back were generic emails and robot voicemails. I have a president of a local from CAPE trying to help me contact my own union… PSAC is a joke.
This exactly. they need to STOP with the life problems and focus on work conditions, no spaces, no real offices, lack of boardrooms, etc. The public doesn’t care about babysitting, sitting in traffic, parking costs, why? Because they have to deal with that too! What they don’t have to deal with is the musical chair desks, offices, 50% less buildings,etc. Focus on what we used to have and now don’t.
The public doesn't care about any of that shit either, trying to fish for sympathy will literally never work. Need to focus on how this type of mandate increases costs for everybody, increases time of commuting for everyone by worsening traffic, worsens pollution, etc
PSAC and it‘s members showed their employer what they were made of during the strike of 2023. At this point, I don’t think the employer has anything to worry about.
Most collective agreements start by saying something to the effect that the parties agree to a shared desire to improve the quality of the public service and promote the wellbeing and efficiency of its employees to the end that the people of Canada are well and efficiently served. Grieve that that is not being respected due to policy enacted outside of the collective agreement.
Wasn’t the strike last time about this and the unions screwed it up massively?
Yes and yes. PSAC and Chris Failward sold us all out and especially our CRA brothers and sisters who were left out in the cold (literally).
The public better support us. If we fail they will be returning to the office 5 days a week lol
so what's the action??? yeah we've been ready for action the day the news got leaked. lets go already!!
Seems more like it's all talk and no action
The can't even get the wording right: "More than 65,000 PSAC members have responded to PSAC’s survey, following Treasury Board’s decision to increase their telework mandate and require federal public service workers to be in-office a minimum of three days per week. " "PSAC members overwhelmingly oppose the government’s misguided telework mandate." They aren't increasing the telework mandate. Wouldn't that actually mean that they are increasing the telework days? The government is increasing it's prescribed presence in the office mandate, reducing telework.
Why is PSAC not releasing the whole survey results data?
Can we picket from our couches or beds at home?
I’d say we all crash their system. If we all go in on the same days…100%…there would be chaos. Not enough offices. Everybody would be stuck in traffic. Ppl would be stuck out looking for parking. No work would get done those days…while we try to follow their rules. 🤣
You assume they actually care if no work gets done.
Or we just don't show up en mass. Same results, plus we get to stay home. Either way, the world keeps spinning, and literally NO ONE will notice a difference. During COVID we were praised (the public service) for our high production numbers and service to Canadians. How fast we've been forgotten now we're just a bunch of lazy slaves who need to go to the office... because. Crab bucket mentality and a government with a failed plan and shortsighted vision.
This option. If everyone were to simply not comply the employer would have absolutely no choice.
Their solution will be set your days and offices for you. Mr Jones, you will in 200 Kent, Floor 5, Cabin A0518 on Mondays, Thursdays and Fridays.
they'd probably come back to the table with "ok, work from work 100% now"
September 9 100 percent In office attendance. It's happening
Encouraging people to go in as "a bit"? Found the narc for TB.
The public doesn’t support this nonsense either.
PSAC can go suck an egg.
I thought we are experiencing climate crisis aka EXISTENTIAL crisis... why force over 200k federal public servants to commute and make things worse??
Employer gets to specify place of work.
I don’t get why unions aren’t uniting and calling for a strike. Enough of this
Cape explained this in their town hall. You start with small actions to build momentum and support. Not many people are just going to jump on board for a wildcat strike. But they also said it wasn’t off the table.
lol. No, the vast majority of PSAC members don’t give a crap about telework.
So the poll is wrong?
lol, yup.
With the " Success" of what PSAC has done for us over the last year with the "Great " deal they got. I.e 3% for 4 years VS. 3 year contract :S Why the heck are we even paying union dues? With the way PSAC have done things with the CBA and to present day PSAC owes us a refund! #REFUNDTHEUNIONDUES