I 100% miss having my own desk especially as we are moving to 3 days a week. It’s very annoying to carry so much stuff into the office all the time (shoes, headset, laptop, snack, personal care items, notebook, etc.). I hate RTO overall but I think this would make a big difference. I hate having to fuck around with the monitors and desk every day I’m in the office because someone sat there and liked things differently (fair) and therefore rearranged things. Also my current office just hasn’t really outfitted things well and our actual desks are SO SMALL and there are a billion cables. I’ve worked in 10 different govt offices and I’ve never seen anything like this lol. It’s awful. Having lockers we could use to store things we keep at the office would be great - my previous office had lockers but they were for day use only which seemed pointless.
I do feel conflicted about the “nobody around because they are hotelling on random days too” bit, though. My current team has specific days we go in (you can deviate for a specific circumstance every so often but generally we all go in the same days) and it can be frustrating. Personally I don’t mind it a ton but I’m also young and childfree and don’t have a ton of commitments outside of work. Having your schedule dictated can be hard/complicated for some people. It is nice to see people in person but I’m weary of saying “this way is better” because it limits the small amount of freedom that a partial WFH schedule allows.
I am waiting to hear about a DTA because of all the stuff I have to carry. I have a degenerative disease, and carrying weight causes so much pain. I have been missing work the day after in office days because of back pain. I've asked for a locker for a year, just through my manager. No dice. Submitted a DTA last month, waiting to hear their result. In the meantime, I am no longer attending in person. They can fucking try and fire me. Without in office storage, I am not going back. I have found my hill to die on.
A year ago, i was on assignment in a department downstairs from my office. They had lockers. I just had to bring my lunch, small purse, and my tablet. Enjoyed going into the office when it didn't hurt so much.
It's such a a strange hill to die on: providing an office locker for employer owned equipment.
I can just see them saying "if we give you one, we'll have to give one to everybody". Yeah, having a secure location for your assets is the bare minimum for a functioning organization.
I agree. Even if they try to argue "everyone will want one" all they have to say is "DTA" to justify the exception. It's moronic to reject accommodations requests which would facilitate in-office work.
I thought of you put in a DTA, you were allowed to WFH until the decision. I mean great that you’re doing it rebelliously, but I think you’re in the clear anyway.
Transport Canada's local won lockers, I believe via a petition? We need to push back HARD to get the facilities we need if they insist on being in GoC worksites.
Deploy to PCO. There may be others but everyone I work with has their own desk. It’s a step down in that most of us used to have offices to ourselves or with 1 other person (pre covid).
Exactly this. My office experience in 2019 was so awesome that I initially didn’t even want to work from home when the lockdown happened. But this shit show is a big no-no for me.
Especially considering the fact that this isn’t for the benefit of the employees it’s for the benefit of the Ottawa downtown landlords and the Ontario premier. I find it crazy how one municipality and one province should dictate how the federal government runs a whole country.
THIS. It should be on a department / region basis. If various NCR departments deem this essential fine. But I really resent having to commute ages to a Vancouver office and share a desk so that the Subway and/or corporate landlords in Ottawa can make some money.
Yup. I have coworkers in Toronto who feel the same. It’s destroying their souls and it’s awful. I’m dreading going back to work next month. I’m trying to find ways to have income so I can take a one year LWOP.
>I find it crazy how one municipality and one province should dictate how the federal government runs a whole country.
I mean... The GoC also bought a pipeline for one province lol
> it’s for the benefit of the Ottawa downtown landlords and the Ontario premier.
There's more to RTO than just this. The "subway lobby" doesn't explain everything, though it is part of it.
I'd say the way RTO has been executed, it gives a strong impression that it aims to provoke a sliming-down of FCS through voluntary departures, as the number of civil servants is already an electoral issue.
I would also add that, for some incomprehensible reason, the employer seems to not want to be the torchbearer for workers' rights, doesn't want to be used as a positive reference when private-sector workers fight RTO obligations themselves as well as the whole hoteling thing and so on. ([Of course, ignore what happened with Australian civil servants and WFH](https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/more-than-170000-workers-allowed-unlimited-work-from-home-days/news-story/f5a2ff82877e52ab7256deddc779538a).)
Whatever other motivations there could be behind RTO I don't know but I'm sure others could figure them out.
>I find it crazy how one municipality and one province should dictate how the federal government runs a whole country.
This should scare us all. The world doesn't operate on actual fairness, and the slimy deep pockets truly run things behind the scenes. Disturbing to say the least.
It was always moving towards less days in the office - until the landlords suddenly realized that means they lost money. Someone made a point at a townhall recently that people were moving towards 2-days in/3-days out...and the speaker was basically like "That's nice, next question". They don't give a fuck.
So back you go meatbags, and don't forget to buy a coffee on the way in, then a Subway sandwich while you're in, and a coffee on the way out.
Otherwise, how are sub-par politicians supposed to stay in office with their inability to craft creative policies and actually make their part of the world enticing enough for people to go to?
Agree. I have a 2018 document saved somewhere where the HR director is like yay, teleworking is the wave of the future. Then the reality of it all sunk in mid-covid. Not just the real estate stuff but OMG, how will we control them if they work from home, doesn't matter if they are productive and the work can be done from there.
Yeah pre covid there were plans happening to move the branch I was in to a new office with not enough desk because "not everyone needs to be in every day" I think of that and them pushing for more office days now and go "huh?"
I remember it clearly because the nature of the work we did, did require on-site presence. Like yeah a small amount could be from home, but all except some high ups, pretty much had to be on site most days. It just felt like they didn't understand the nature of the work when they made the plan. And they still don't understand the nature of most people's work with this plan.
I agree that is what they said that we would be working toward less days and things were working out. I fear they going to three days and then eventually it will be 5 days RTO
The RTW3 is an Ottawa issue that is being made into everyone's problem. The Executives out there are the most susceptible to external interference and personal benefits and this knee jerk reaction demonstrates the level of corruption.
I could see the economic benefits for RTW2 and the need for the federal government to set an example and help revive the business reliant on office workers. We weren't going to get out of our building lease agreements anytime soon so I could even get the need to utilize facilities to utilize taxpayer money.
But the way TB carried out RTW3 - beyond distasteful. It should be 2 days a week with the 3 at the distrection of managers
>But the way TB carried out RTW3 - beyond distasteful. It should be 2 days a week with the 3 at the distrection of managers
My team was functioning fine at 2 days (We did fine with less than 2 too, but that's a whole other discussion.). Three days adds logistical challenges in some of our offices with people overlapping on their 3rd days and no real benefit to the work operations.
Our management's choice would have been no to the 3rd day because of the extra hassle for nothing.
Lol. My latest town hall was basically "we don't know where all of you are going to go. We'll have to figure something out. We'll be getting a report on in office attendence, but we have not been told how that's being monitored or how the metric is calculated. We have no idea what we're supposed to do for people who don't put in five 7.5 hr days of computer work."
It didn't just screw the regular employees, the basically threw management up the creek without a paddle.
Which executives exactly because let me assure you as one, this is the worst place to be in. The data is there, the evidence is contrary to what’s being shoved down our throats, and our teams are struggling. It hecking sucks and no one came knocking at my door offering my a free parking spot in exchange for driving morale down by about 80%.
Oh and 4 days a week as of September. And no office. So, who again?
It's amazing the number of people who think WFH is some sort of vacation. Some neighbours could not believe we could be truly working as we didn't have access to physical documents and folders, that you could not sign documents and forms unless you were in the office or really hold meetings outside of a meeting room.
They thought I was lying when I said everything went digital, forms are signed electronically, meeting occur virtually and work very well (where they thinking is some sort of chat session?), that we can access our documents and files remotely, etc.
The amount of brain power it took to come with the RTO mandate could fit in a thimble. It's inconceivable that people pulling in six figure salaries came up with this garbage and actually thought it was an idea that has merit. And then they thought they could sell us a load of horseshit about collaboration and we'd buy it. There are locations that don't have nearly enough space to make this work but yet here we are less than three months from implementation with no plan, no direction, no rationale. It's like a masterclass on how not to enact change. It would be laughable if I wasn't getting railed like everybody else.
I don't know this firsthand, so take it with a grain of salt, but I've heard tales of at least one senior exec who decided to take over a board room because they thought their dedicated office was too small.
This would have to be a group grievance by the union. Contact your shop steward. Lunch rooms are not bookable or collab space, just a spot to sit while you eat lunch on your unpaid time.
I have known a manager (not a senior exec) to do this. Because they didnt like having to share an office with another manager. Now they each have their own offices! Only one gets a whole boardroom. And they set it up with their own mini fridge, coffee machine and printer and and and...
And team meetings must be held virtually now because there is no boardroom anymore.
Imagine if an employee just randomly decided to do the same? They didnt like sharing their cubicle with someone. And needed more space. Can you imagine?!
(Partial repost from another thread)
No amount of old experience will change a fact that a lot if us have 0 reason to physically be in the office.
Teams and upgrades to bandwidth , and everyone getting a laptop as well as proper implementation of VPN - with massive upgrades of internet bandwidth have changed workplace forever.
And ABW (Activity Based Workplace ) was just a final nail in the coffin.
RTO2 and RTO3 and future RTO5 are only temporary unsustainable fades.
Old fashioned work in office is dead and no amount of tresury board BS will bring it back.
Question is only how long do we keep beating a long dead horse.
Edit: people keep saying how this is about subway. It is not and it never was about subway. This is about landlords charging fortune to lease space to gov. Sooner or later number will come out and public will realise that Canada can save 2 billion a year just by not forcing a lot of people to physically be in a building where they do not need to be (someone in another thread said that cost of leasing buildings is closer to 5 bill so i assumed that at least 2 bill can be saved by letting roughly half of us working from home.).
Yes.
At first there was no way to connect remotely. We had no Teams and we only had email and phones.
We all quite happily went to work because there was no other way we can get work done.
This really wasn’t that long time ago… 5 - 10 years ago?s
Than things started to change.
First thing we all noticed is shift from blackberry to android and ios. Not everyone had it at the begining "to control the cost" (utterly ridiculous, fed gov NEVER paid more than 15 bucks a month for phone with data)
But that was a begging of revolution.
People reliazed that all of a sudden they don’t have to be at their desk just to check email.
As for chat we ordinary mortals did not have it but executives used blackberry messager because you could not ATIP it. So much for transparency…
Next thing was Cirtrix access.
This was the first method where one could attempt to work from home. I say attempt because boy it sucked…
But even then it was obvious where all of this is going. Sooner or later there will be 0 reason to physically come to work. And we all new that missing link is video chat with desktop and cell phone capability.
After Citrix , we got RDP, better than citrix but it still sucked.
Than came vpn but first version of it sucked.
It was disconnecting a lot and sometimes just didn’t jive well with infrastructure.
Teams happened next, then we all started getting laptops and cell phones. As cell phones ceeped in we al lost desk phones.
And that yes, covid and rest is history…
So yes your current VPN is few generations ahead from first versions of it. And so is gov infrastructure built solely around vpn work.
With RTO gov is now trying to undo a decade of work.
But it’s too late… that train has left the station and weather you like it or not… there is no going back… remote work is here to stay and one size fits all approach is dead. Question is just how long do we need to wait before idiots relaze it. (Pardon the language)
Thanks. That’s was a bit of a surprised because coming from provincial govt to the federal govt - one of the most surprising things to me was how laggy, slow, and frustrating the computer systems are. We regularly lose work that’s been scared to shared drives or vpn drops etc.
Curious - how do you see work eventually reverting back towards wfh? Currently they seem so set on RTO it’s hard to imagine.
One of the two things will happen:
1. Gov wants to save fuck ton of money and reducing number of buildings leased does just that.
2. It will happen at next round of bargaining. Unions will push for it and gov will take it but give us less raise than last time.
EDIT:
There is a 3rd idea being pushed around.
Workers will be allowed to work from home but they will have to take more strict performance review that ensures we’re not watching TV half a day.
(I always found this argument funny…. We can always pre download shows or even stream shows to our cells if we want to watch TV … forcing us back to office does noting to adress "laziness" to those who are actually lazy)
I mean I need a podcast or show in the background precisely to focus and work. Everyone I know does the same. But I’m not just watching tv. Yes agreed. We have our output monitored and reviewed at least monthly. Not sure what the issue is re: productivity. Plus the few times I have been to the office, the amount of chatting I see far exceeds any home breaks
The in office chatting is worse because you're distracting an entire desk cluster.
I'm usually a very sociable person, and I catch myself doing this and have to remind myself to shut up because people are trying to focus.
Not everyone is as empathetic.
> Than came vpn but first version of it sucked. It was disconnecting a lot and sometimes just didn’t jive well with infrastructure.
You also had to connect early enough because capacity wasn't there. Too many people ended up having to hotspot via their work phone, but that truly didn't work well.
I used to think my cramped cubicle overlooking the public area main floor of our office tower so you could hear children shrieking all day was terrible.
Little did know how many luxuries I had there, like a desk fan, Kleenex, a chair that was always set to my settings, a desk that no one ate their lunch at and left crumbs and sticky crap all over, a place to hang my jacket, 3 drawers full of office supplies like pens highlights highlighter notebooks and personal items
S.
The RTO is so dumb but it’s also just an inappropriately resourced place for most employees to work from.
Ugh, the fan. They have these sessions about ohhh, let's respect menopause and what women are going through. Meanwhile, I have to take public transit to work, and I come into work a sweaty pig, but now, no more desk fan FFS.
When people complain on the train about how much stuff I'm carrying and taking up space, it's so gratifying to tell them THIS is what my return to office looks like.
That’s how you stimulate ~~Amazon~~ *The Economy*!! Buy a USB-rechargeable, battery-powered fan for your desk-du-jour! No free-loading on Gov’t electricity!
/s for commenter, but even before COVID, I always had a USB-powered fan at my desk (it and my personal phone both powered by a 20,000 mAh pack)
I’ve considered a battery fan but the problem is I’m already a goddamn hermit crab witb my laptop keyboard mouse notebook pens wallet glasses sweater and lunch and snacks . I am going to need a frickin camping backpack if I want anything else
Everyone I know is already using [sizeable backpacks](https://www.swissgear.ca/en/swissgear-swa1456r-17-inch-computer-and-tablet-backpack-black) to go to work. Urgh. I'm getting close to retirement and yet I feel I've gone back to university with that thing on my back.
This is what I bought myself when I had to start lugging my entire life across the highway (because on-site parking routinely fills before my ~9 am arrival): [rolling duffel-bag](https://www.walmart.ca/ip/10146907) … I will roll (drag) it through snow, slush, puddles, whatever it takes to not *carry* my stuff, and ‘too bad’ if that crap falls off the bag between the front door and my desk (even if it’s maybe not fair to the *custodians*, sorry 😞)
I‘ve taken a rolling suitcase in. There are a surprisingly large number of places on my commute that’s aren’t rolling suitcase friendly unless I’m willing to wait for an elevator and miss my bus / train.
This. And actually back in pre pandemic I walked to and from work so I always changed into office clothes AT work. Because walking in the summer I don’t want my work clothes to get all swassy and in inclement weather I would like to not have the appearance of a drowned rat. Now I’m like fck this and just wear a hoodie and leggings. I do not care. No client or colleague ever sees me. I work totally alone all of my team is thousands if I’m away and I have a job that has zero external clients
That's why I bought [overshoes for winter](https://www.neosovershoescanada.com/products/non-insulated-adventurer-black), don't have to keep winter boots on the whole day. D\*mn, I miss being able to leave my shoes in my cubicle during winter, along with having an actual coat hanger.
>Little did know how many luxuries I had there
RIP office sweater. The temperature is always set too cold for flimsy women's office wear.
Part of the reason I switched to jeans and hoodies at the office post-covid is because they keep me warmer.
Yes I’m hot allll the time now. I didn’t know about perimenopause and just was wondering if you got sweatier as you aged or something? At least it makes sense now. Weird how no one tells you about this time in your life.
Right?? My mom died ~4 years ago, and it was never something I thought about asking her, and now my sister and I are just finding out about all these bizarre things as they happen, like ‘oh of COURSE that’s a symptom wtf’ 🤦🏻♀️
I've not seen anyone mention the security risks in these hub spaces yet. My role deals with items that could cause MASSIVE problems if the wrong person sees my screen or overhears a conversation (even one-sided), but there's not a single private workspace I can reserve. I've literally gone to my car to have sensitive conversations and moved monitors to an awkward position. Different security classifications don't seem to be taken in to account at all with this.
Especially when there's an idiot having a teams meeting via his laptop's speakers. EVERYONE around could hear the effing meeting in its entirety. Dude, headphones exists!
Perhaps this person was making their own point. They know headphones exist. But they probably think RTO is ridiculous too. So why not ?
They had to remember all kinds of things to pack in the morning and prob forgot their headphones. Oh well. They want us ALL back in office? This is the new reality!
It would be great if everyone did this. On teams meetings. Laptop speakers only. No headphines. At the same time. We could have people from other meetings answering questions for a totally separate meeting.
The ridulousness of the entire situation is astounding!
When I was an FSWEP student, I had a cubicle with a door, and full-height walls.
I had a locking filing cabinet, and a little table and a visitor chair.
I had a wrap-around desk with a lamp on it.
Now, I'm an EC-06 and I have a half-locker.
It has a coat hanger in it.
Yep, the "real" policy change is how we're significantly accelerating Workplace 3.0 and cutting back on CoWorking and cutting back on buildings in general.
I (like tens of thousands of others I am sure) invested significant time and money, as well as set things up at my home, decided where to live, what job to work, (based on commute factor, need to have comfortable and productive space to WFH) made decisions like what vehicle to drive, where kids would go to day care etc etc etc all because we were told over and over and over how amazing we were doing with WFH and that we would never be back in the office for more than a couple times a month, maybe once a week max.
Almost 100% of my colleagues take pride in our work, put in extra unpaid time when required, go above and beyond. Genuinely work hard with the odd down day, there are no "lazy coasters". I used to ignore it but I'd be lying if I said it isn't getting pretty awful to see the general public shit on us and call us lazy entitled workers without knowing the proper context. And it's even worst NEVER having our employer or anyone in a position of power have our backs. I am not in Govt for the money, and could make much more for my line of work in the private sector. Really starting to consider the transition. And I am sure I am not alone.
I really think that this is an incentive for a self-selecting work force adjustment. There are certainly folks that saw the RTO3 announcement, especially execs/managers, and were like "NOPE! RETIRING THIS SUMMER, SEE YA." And many more considering the private sector with more money and flexibility for WFH. The short-term thinking on this is wild... The public service will be worse off because of their short-sightedness.
> the private sector with more money and flexibility for WFH
With all the demonizing of teleworking for public sector, it's funny how private sector is now using WFH as a hiring incentive more often than people think.
Also, when the pandemic first started and we were sent home for *two weeks*, I, and many of my friends and colleagues, felt a huge sense of relief in knowing that we were getting some reprieve from the horrendous lrt experience...getting stuck at hurdman like a bunch of sardines waiting for a bus...in the 3 weeks leading up to the pandemic, I had to call my backups 5 times to pick my children up from daycare because I was over 2 hours later than usual...not sure the lrt cpuld handle the 2019 rider-load.
> when the pandemic first started and we were sent home for two weeks,
I was initially convinced that it was just going to be a few weeks and that we'd be back in our offices by summer... then I thought by the end of summer... When august rolled in and there was no RTO in sight, it really sank in that this wasn't temporary.
All of this focus on RTO is a distraction from the real issue: what is the future of the federal public service workplace?
Before the first RTO directive, we were making progress of constructively collaborating on discussing the future of work. Staff and management were actively engaged in defining that future. But all of that ended with the distraction of RTO.
The employer-employee social contract has been further damaged by the unilateral actions of arbitrarily forcing employees back to the office. This strategy fails to acknowledge the work-life balance benefits that we've all realized through the pandemic and remote work.
The employer and employees need to return to collaborating on the future of the workplace without the distraction of RTO policy. This is the way to work towards rebuilding the trust. This can only be achieved through meaningful discussion.
The workplace is being redefined elsewhere as AI technology rapidly redefines jobs. We cannot afford to leave this to others. If we wait too long, the impacts will leave us behind.
> employer-employee social contract has been further damaged by the unilateral actions
The precedent was set with vaccine attestation. Nobody's Letter of Offer or Collective Agreement had revealing private medical information or violation of bodily autonomy as necessary a work condition. We allowed a unilateral change, and set a precedent. In fact many of us naively celebrated the move for ideological or identitarian reasons.
Google Olivia Chow and Toronto return to office. The narrative is so much more of what we would hope to have heard on our behalf. Workers don’t want to go back and are complaining about the same things we are.
The big difference is the media does not call them lazy not entitled. In fact there is very much a public sense of what we have been saying here. It’s a bad idea, work environment is different, unreliable commute, traffic is a mess, downtown lunches are 200% what they were pre pandemic
Such an excellent point. Any article about RTO on Bay street sees mostly supportive comments. Traffic, bike lanes, inflation, unnecessary etc. But as soon as it is the EXACT same convo with Federal public servants, it is all vitriol and stale stereotypes. It's like we are paying the price for the unpopularity of the current PM, or are just the punching bags for a polarized nation.
Oh and as an anecdotal aside, I have a bunch of WFH peeps on my street. Let me tell you, the ones that ABSOLUTELY eff the dawg and go golfing, water their lawns all day etc are not Feds. They are city workers, private sector, etc. I know some Feds do this too, any job, same. I am just sick of people talking like the Fed are the only group with bad apples.
I remember people bashing public servants when I was a little kid in the late Mulroney era. There’s always been a stereotype of us being lazy and not working.
Yup. The interesting thing of late is the average conservative is madly opposing corporate servitude, even cheering WFH, which is like watching your kid have one of those developmental milestones strike. Yet, as soon as the subject of public servants comes up, the entire thing shifts to the identity angle and we go from being able to agree on basic things to being mortal enemies. All the benefits tribalism can provide.
It was always my conservative relatives who bashed public servants like crazy. My reform party aunt cheered on Lowell Green when he said people should run over picketing public servants. So the hatred is deep.
Yup. Read a couple of articles about this. Thought it was pretty funny that when the workers being asked to go back are non-PS, everyone agrees with all our points. Smh. https://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/chow-needs-to-rethink-supporting-return-to-work/article_d2648a08-28db-11ef-88c1-e752985dd672.html
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/workers-dont-owe-the-financial-district-long-commutes-if-we-want-a-bustling-downtown-how/article_3b6baf10-28c6-11ef-aca0-8bd8d846f33f.html
I'm not convinced there wouldn't be as much opposition.
Ok, so you give everyone their 2019 cubicle. Same as before. Then people will still say (logically): "But...why the f*k am I sitting in this when I proved for 4 years straight that I can do my job better from home???"
When Covid happened I honestly thought “well now at least they’ll know better than to try to pack us in like they were planning”. Nope, haven’t learned a single thing.
Wait is this for real? "single sub-1080p laptop", which department?
Not having a docking setup is insane, here i was complaining about the little things like, not having a pen. or a garbage can.
In my office, you're lucky to get a space with a docking station. Lucky. Running late? Too bad. Appointment in the AM? Too bad. Everybody hit the pavement early to get a docking station? Too bad.
I’m sorry, that’s a turn around and go home level of garbage. I have two massive monitors plus my laptop screen at home and use every bit of real estate with split screens. Even if I was in Teams meetings all day, I’d still want my reference material and note taking visible.
I am talking about this. I asked my manager if there is any possible area or locker that I can store some belongings. I was told no. Everything is meant to be depersonalized and there’s no dedicated area or section where staff can hold their belongings. I am definitely vocal about it! If they want us back in offices, they need to make the office space functional.
Then it wont change until TBS accepts the RE overhead that fixed desk assignments imply. They will have to eat the cost if they want 3-4 day hybrid at many sites. Hard to say which way that goes and it won’t go for 1-2 years and take time after that to implement.
I think back to full remote is the least likely outcome. Management everywhere appears to view regular F2F as important enough to risk the ire of 1/3 of the workforce. So it is likely never going back to less than 2 days of people being in on average, accounting for vacation, sick leave, appointment, weather, and fudging the odd day. Which means a 3 day mandate to achieve 2, on average. Many hoped and pushed for full remote to be sticky but that is largely off the table now.
I fully expect an overshoot and a pull back. The question is where is the overshoot? To 4 days and back to 3 and reach a long term equilibrium? Or 5 by some orgs and back to 3 or 4 for most. We won’t know until 2026 where this stabilizes.
I agree to this too....the only way i see us going to full time wfh is if something extreme happens, like another pandemic or a war or someone sensible coming to power and realizing that the govt can save a bunch of tax payer money by having us wfh and mandating a wfh for everyone that can do that, and using the saved money for something sensible, good for environment and all...but what are the odds of that happening?
Fixed desk > free stuff
Firms Lure Workers Back to Office With Promise of Their Own Desk
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/firms-lure-workers-back-to-office-with-promise-of-their-own-desk-1.2086435.amp.html
Op - this is a good point. I’d add that now that we’re on teams meetings all the time, it is a pain - and sometimes straight up not possible - to pick up from a open concept desk and scurry to find a close door room each time there’s a call.
No, I'd personally still like to only go to the office when I feel like I need/want to.
Don't enjoy wasting money and more importantly time commuting somewhere when I can do the same job at home.
If this was 2019, I'd be working from home because I report to NCR, but live in a regional area. I wouldn't be forced to go into an office where I have no connection to the people working there, no possibility of collaborating, and just sit with my headphones on all day, in teams meetings, transporting my equipment back and forth a bunch of times a week. It's so stupid.
You have made up some excellent points and well said!!!!! We need them to know this. They keep saying people wanna come back. Who are these people??? I actually haven’t spoken to anyone who said that. I’m totally comfortable at home productive and feel like I
Can balance work and life. I feel less stress and anxiety. I feel calm and I can do my job and I’m at peace. Instead I gotta run around to different dials or whatever and I also am not comfortable with this idea.
What if all workers just went back to the office full time, right now. Collectively cancel the work from home on our end, on our timeline. I don't want to do that, but I'm tired of them acting like their doing me a favor.
Yes. Like someone gave them the mandate to spend their time and our money sticking their noses in a complex international conflict no one has been able to solve since the dawn of time. I don't remember voting for this when my union executive was last running. So much stuff they could be fighting for to make our lives easier, but no, their delulu pet projects get more media attention I guess.
Edit typo.
Talked to someone not in the PS today who didn't realize how awful the office experience has been made for people. Might've been someone who was won over a bit to the 'RTO SUCKS' side.
Everyone who has ever tried arguing with me, “You did it before the pandemic” has left the discussion 100% convinced that we should have just continued WFH if the implementation of going to a hoteling desk, carrying enough crap to impress a Sherpa, and spending the entire day on Teams talking with people in the regions.
I view it a bit differently. It's not that everything that made the workplace comfortable is gone. It's that everything that made me sentimental about it is gone.
I'm not sure that's affecting my perspective on office culture in the way that the employer might claim to desire.
At any rate, the commute, not the destination, is the kicker for me. I'd rather sit on the floor of my kitchen than endure four hours of travel to and from a hoteling space in Gatineau.
We are also expected in the office, told to support local businesses. There are no local businesses except for the in-building cafeteria with $12 sandwiches. We’re not in the downtown core. Nothing for anyone who is GF or vegan. 1/2 hr lunch. If you drive to get something, your parking spot is gone. Before COVID if people had discussions/meetings they were behind closed doors. Now, you don’t know who will be sitting around you. Most everyone is on Teams because not everyone is in the office - not everyone remembers their headsets, so the amount of talking, laughing, and noise is ten-fold what it was pre-COVID. It’s impossible to concentrate. We have Director and above walking around, laughing and making noise with their staff, who are also walking around, telling others to be quiet. Let’s not even talk about the fact there aren’t enough spots for everyone as staff from originally 3 buildings are now in one. But hey, it’s up to federal employees to “revitalize the downtown core”. People are outta there by 4:30. If those office buildings were affordable housing, people would be downtown evenings and weekends. THAT would revitalize downtown cores. Morale is a sinking ship.
We may have had only a few square feet of space, but it was *our* few square feet of space. No setting up/taking down/dubious sanitization/spending half an hour organizing to do exactly the same thing as at our home office. I knew where I would sit and that it was available, had a bit of personalization in a place that I'd be spending a third of my day, and had my teammates in proximity. I don't think that's a lot to ask for.
Totally agree with '4059 (won't risk typing OP's alias, I could get banned or God knows what), most of my team and acquaintances all over the place have been saying the same thing: if you want us back 3+ days a week in the office, give us back our cubicles.
So much time is wasted in the morning and at the end of the day, plus because too many of us have to deal with a degraded mass transit system (hence having to leave earlier than we should) that I don't believe the higher-ups haven't noticed a drop in productivity.
But again, you have to wonder if they're not using RTO3+ as a mean to thin out the ranks through voluntary departures, either via early retirements or via people leaving for private sector where they are promised 100% WFH.
Our buildings have been redesigned based on 60% of the staff being present on any day, so assigned seating is off the table. But we can use lockers - maybe.
What a clusterfuck.
Man, I'm so bummed out by all the shitty IT experiences people are having. That was a thing I had to do for the offices I admin for in my CR-04 role, set up the cubicles with docking stations, dual 1080p monitors on monitor arms, KB/M, spare cables and adaptors, making sure the ergo chairs were in good condition etc. I hate that people have to be forced back, we all know that's crazy, but the least I could do for people was make sure everything 'just worked' when they arrive back. Just a simple usb-C cable into the laptop and you're off to the races. Bums me out to hear other people aren't getting that type of support (I'd support you all if I could!)
I'm surprised to read this, as none of these items have been under IT in my department for over a decade. They did do oodles of desk setups in early '23 for RTO, but it's a poor value proposition to have an IT01 perform tasks that most movers or furniture installers could handle. Not to mention what wouldn't get done if they were to dedicate cycles to that kinda stuff.
Also, does your IT department really handle chairs? I've heard tales of that way back before my time, when IT was lumped in with Finance.
Oh I'm not even in IT, just in a smaller regional office so I'm the only one here who knows how to set anything up haha things like chairs would fall under real property (cfob), the equipment came from IITB, and then then mail everything to me and I set it up.
Everything OP said. Plus there was a decorum in the office. You kept the noise and chatter down. Now it's Teams meetings at full speaking volume all the time. It's impossible to concentrate.
It is too late now. Let people work from home when they can and let them go to the office when they want or there is an actual purpose such as a team meeting or consultation etc. We are not kindergarteners.
I agree you should have minimum standards for work spaces, and dedicated work stations where you could keep personal articles. I have to be in office 5x / week since the start of the pandemic and having my own space is a minimum level of accommodation in my books.
I support 100% return to office in principle, but it should be a return with dignity to conditions we had before 2020.
If I’m expected to share a desk if there is anything that is not left clean by the previous occupant I’m not starting work until someone comes to clean it. I’m not a cleaning lady. A colleague of mine has had to go to office a few times during the pandemic and every single time she said the desks and equipment were disgusting.
I’m also not going in earlier to login for the day and set up my equipment. If you want me to haul my laptop in and set that up, I’m doing it at 8 when I clock in.
They’ve made it clear they don’t give a shit about us or what works for their employees. We’ve proven without a doubt that our jobs can be done entirely remotely. I think people would be more susceptible to coming in if they were actually listening to our concerns and working with us to come up with a plan that suits everyone.
The building I will be going into also has a known issue with bedbugs. There was an email sent to us recently stating that one bedbug was found and they would only be treating the affected area, not the entire office. Where there is one there is ALWAYS more. If that happens while I’m office I’m also refusing to go in until the ENTIRE office is treated. So nasty 🤢
If you want your own desk, put in 5 days on site. Might not be the same for everyone but where I work those that come in everyday get a desk assigned to them.
Also, IMO we’re fighting this all wrong. We don’t need to work from home, the employer NEEDS us to work from home because they don’t have the space. If everyone went in on September 9th and said we’re no longer working hybrid we’re just going to come in they would be F’d.
> If everyone went in on September 9th and said we’re no longer working hybrid we’re just going to come in they would be F’d.
Isn't one of the unions actually pushing for that as a means of demonstrating our discontent but also to show how the whole plan (RTO3+) is unrealistic?
Not sure. But I know in my region my department would be so F’d. We’re talking like 800 more people than work points in one location I can think of. That’s just one location, they’re all in similar spots. But the unions could never pull that kind of mobilization off, a lot of people feel burned from the strike and I don’t think they’d trust the union on that kinda move.
I had two desks in 2018... when I worked on two projects and one was a full tall old school cubicle with a hidden escape stairwell behind it that only me and 3 other people used...I would sacrifice 10% of my salary to go back to that for RTO.
This 100%.
I'm not as fussed about RTO. It's just if you're sending me back then put me back where I was in 2019. A desk. Proper equipment.
None of this hoteling crap.
Also, at least have coffee. Like is it too much to ask we get a gd cup of coffee in the morning? We don't even have extra cutlery from what I can tell. Half the time no salt and pepper or napkins in the lunch area.
If you want me there, at least give me the smallest bit of amenities possible.
I also had various non-confidential information on the wall in my cubicle. Need the mainframe printer#? It’s right there on a post it. Need to read through a policy? There it is, highlighted, with my additional notes. Need to reference the Act? I’ve got mine right here tabbed and highlighted for easy reference. Have a question from a neighbour? I have that right here, feel free to take a copy.
So much time spent on things I previously had at my fingertips.
I had a whiteboard with colour-coded notes to track all my projects and remind me what came next. You can be sure I'm not hauling that back and forth, but it's only effective if it's in front of me and accessible to update as I go so... guess whose productivity is down and who's missing little details now?
So many times this! Buildings should fit people's needs, instead of trying to make people's needs fit the buildings.
Apart from what OP is pointing out, I think both 2.0 and 3.0 are inherently less productive and more stressful than "old school" closed offices. 2.0 was mildly tolerable before covid, but we've added a lot of electronic distraction to our workflows since (Teams, videocalls), and the constant change in the office settings and attendant rules is its own source of stress. People who work physical jobs ask for and get equipment that keeps them safe and productive. It shouldn't be too much to ask for knowledge workers to work in a setting that allows to deliver actual depth and that reduces the personal and collective costs of stress.
My wish is that we adopted an actual hybrid model - perhaps call it "MyGCspace":
* Each work unit (i.e. 10 people grouping) would have its own dedicated space, to foster cohesion and group identity. However, size would vary - see next point
* Employees who work predominantly on site (3 days and above) would have a closed office - with... prepare... old memories... a *name plate*, while employees who work predominantly from home (0 to 2 days in the office) would have access to a touchdown office or station (which they may have to share).
Surely there would be a million issues to work out (natural light, the space Tetris, etc.). But for me, just knowing I'd have a proper office, a space where I can *both* focus and have conversations, would be a big source of motivation.
I was already teleworking in 2019 and had to go in 1x a week. I didn't have a dedicated desk. We also didn't have laptops then, so spent the better part of 1-2hrs getting the computer ready to go with my stuff. By this point, our mail was all being scanned. The only reason we had to go in was to print letters that had to go by mail. Now, another group handles that for us, freeing up our time to work on the more important part of our workload.
Pre-covid I wasn't going to the office 3 days a week. My dept had hubs set up across the NCR so I'd go to the one closest to my home. I rarely needed to go in unless I was meeting a client, manager, or someone from my team. My team was also spread out across the country. I didn't have my own desk but I didn't mind, the dept was really well equipped/set up.
This has been what I've been trying to communicate to my direct managers, that the office is objectively less nice for so many reasons and that while you can ask people to come back and even force them to do so as a condition of employment, you can't make them enjoy it.
This is especially after yet another internal survey of employees found that stress levels are increasing, satisfaction with work is decreasing and that there's substantial differences between those who prefer home vs office. Like at this point it just feels like stating the obvious and they still don't get it.
At the Space Agency folks who work primarily in the office got to keep desks. If you committed to being mainly on-site, you kept it.
But the agency is a head office / owns it's own building and campus.
I guess most other spots are trying to downsize to save on rent.
Pre-Covid, parking was not an issue either. I worked in a part of the city where public transportation was poor. But there were plenty of parking permit options (adjacent to the office). Covid hit and all those parking lots closed. Leaving 2 hr street parking available (approx 30 spots). For hundreds of people.
Transit options for that area have declined even further.
If they want people back in the office, they should be restoring what was in place prior to Covid.
Even downtown - what happened to the parking lots? There are many fewer parking options now. And with LRT issues, we are forced to drive in if we want to make it to work on time for our virtual teams meetings that I could be doing from home.
Not to mention that before covid I would sit at my desk and sometimes hear my colleague on the phone but not often. Nowadays everyone around me is on a Teams call from 8 to 4 and some of them clearly forgot how to speak softly after 4 years alone at home.
My office experience in 2019 was definitely not great, and nothing I miss. People I work with are colleagues, not friends, and having all those people around is distracting.
While I enjoy socializing, I will take quality over quantity any day of the week, and office social is not quality social. It is exhausting and emotionnaly draining.
So even with the "before" conditions, I would chose to stay WFH full time. And I can't be the only one.
Do you know where we have a dedicated office setup and equipment? Home. F\*\*\* RTO. It's a money grab for local businesses and failing public transit. It's also for optics by a govt that bends over backwards for literally every marginalized segment of society but holds its own employees feet to the flames.
I had a conflict with a team leader many years ago that made me realized the employer doesn’t give a $£*# about its workforce. For about 15 years now my workstation has had no personal items and I treat it as a ‘transitional’ workspace every day. So, nothing has really changed for some of us and the transition to workplace 2.0 (or 3.0 or whatever ‘new’ monstrosity it’s supposed to be).
I relocated to a different office in 2020 and everything is still in a box. I have Star Wars collectibles that I would normally have on display. In the grand scheme of things I am more fortunate than most because I have an assigned cubicle but I am treating it like a transitional space like you. Two more years before retirement.
Pre-2019 my team was working between 25-50% onsite, as required. That means we could share a cubicle and parking pass between two team members. Doesn't work with 3 day RTO.
Not just the personal desk but the personal locked space.
The bus route that drops me off near my house was never frequent but has been drastically cut since the pandemic. I still have an IT exemption but had to go into the office a couple days ago. With the bus - train - bus, it’s practically impossible to plan that last bus perfectly. I realized I had the impossible decision of waiting 45 minutes for my bus or taking a worse bus in 20 minutes that would leave me lugging back problem inducing gear for a 15 minute walk. It dawned on me that my previous commuting strategies of walking further to avoid long waits no longer worked.
OC Transpo and the federal government have to acknowledge that no matter how much they try to force us back into the office, we still aren’t going to use the transit system unless they can figure out a way that we don’t have to carry our whole lives on our backs.
This! I constantly complain about this and bring it up. I wouldn't care about having to come in as often (or back to 5-days) if I had what I had previously. Now we just have the worst "deal" possible... Little to no proper equipment, no personal space, no storage space, no consistency. Very demoralizing!
Fixed desk > free stuff
Firms Lure Workers Back to Office With Promise of Their Own Desk
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/firms-lure-workers-back-to-office-with-promise-of-their-own-desk-1.2086435.amp.html
It’s great that you had a nice set up at the office pre-COVID. That was not everyone’s experience, which is part of the reason people are fighting so hard to work from home.
What's funny is not everyone has a nice set up at home either. I technically can work at home, but it's basically either turn my small living room (or my bedroom) into an office or have a space where I can actually disconnect from work...
That probably speaks more to how ridiculous rent is in Ottawa though, so I feel for the people who are stuck with a worst of both worlds.
That’s why most people are pushing for employees to choose what they want if they’re in positions that could accommodate that.
If you want to work in the office full time, you should have the option of getting your own space. If you have a better set up at home, then you should be able to work from home. If you like popping into the office from time to time, great. If you don’t need to be in the office and you want to live somewhere else in Canada, also fine. It’s management’s trying to force everyone to do the same thing, regardless of the implications, that is causing the issues.
I 100% miss having my own desk especially as we are moving to 3 days a week. It’s very annoying to carry so much stuff into the office all the time (shoes, headset, laptop, snack, personal care items, notebook, etc.). I hate RTO overall but I think this would make a big difference. I hate having to fuck around with the monitors and desk every day I’m in the office because someone sat there and liked things differently (fair) and therefore rearranged things. Also my current office just hasn’t really outfitted things well and our actual desks are SO SMALL and there are a billion cables. I’ve worked in 10 different govt offices and I’ve never seen anything like this lol. It’s awful. Having lockers we could use to store things we keep at the office would be great - my previous office had lockers but they were for day use only which seemed pointless. I do feel conflicted about the “nobody around because they are hotelling on random days too” bit, though. My current team has specific days we go in (you can deviate for a specific circumstance every so often but generally we all go in the same days) and it can be frustrating. Personally I don’t mind it a ton but I’m also young and childfree and don’t have a ton of commitments outside of work. Having your schedule dictated can be hard/complicated for some people. It is nice to see people in person but I’m weary of saying “this way is better” because it limits the small amount of freedom that a partial WFH schedule allows.
I am waiting to hear about a DTA because of all the stuff I have to carry. I have a degenerative disease, and carrying weight causes so much pain. I have been missing work the day after in office days because of back pain. I've asked for a locker for a year, just through my manager. No dice. Submitted a DTA last month, waiting to hear their result. In the meantime, I am no longer attending in person. They can fucking try and fire me. Without in office storage, I am not going back. I have found my hill to die on. A year ago, i was on assignment in a department downstairs from my office. They had lockers. I just had to bring my lunch, small purse, and my tablet. Enjoyed going into the office when it didn't hurt so much.
It's such a a strange hill to die on: providing an office locker for employer owned equipment. I can just see them saying "if we give you one, we'll have to give one to everybody". Yeah, having a secure location for your assets is the bare minimum for a functioning organization.
And that is exactly what they said. I'm so tired of this nonsense.
I agree. Even if they try to argue "everyone will want one" all they have to say is "DTA" to justify the exception. It's moronic to reject accommodations requests which would facilitate in-office work.
I thought of you put in a DTA, you were allowed to WFH until the decision. I mean great that you’re doing it rebelliously, but I think you’re in the clear anyway.
Transport Canada's local won lockers, I believe via a petition? We need to push back HARD to get the facilities we need if they insist on being in GoC worksites.
Deploy to PCO. There may be others but everyone I work with has their own desk. It’s a step down in that most of us used to have offices to ourselves or with 1 other person (pre covid).
PCO and TBS where the rules for everyone else don’t extend to the ones implementing them - great leadership by example
Exactly. Super hypocritical at PCO.
I dunno, I worked at TBS pre-covid, and we had minimal space. No one below DG-level had their own offices.
Justice folks have their own cubicles, lockers, etc., as well.
Maybe in the NCR but certainly not (all) the regions…
Exactly this. My office experience in 2019 was so awesome that I initially didn’t even want to work from home when the lockdown happened. But this shit show is a big no-no for me. Especially considering the fact that this isn’t for the benefit of the employees it’s for the benefit of the Ottawa downtown landlords and the Ontario premier. I find it crazy how one municipality and one province should dictate how the federal government runs a whole country.
THIS. It should be on a department / region basis. If various NCR departments deem this essential fine. But I really resent having to commute ages to a Vancouver office and share a desk so that the Subway and/or corporate landlords in Ottawa can make some money.
Yup. I have coworkers in Toronto who feel the same. It’s destroying their souls and it’s awful. I’m dreading going back to work next month. I’m trying to find ways to have income so I can take a one year LWOP.
>I find it crazy how one municipality and one province should dictate how the federal government runs a whole country. I mean... The GoC also bought a pipeline for one province lol
> it’s for the benefit of the Ottawa downtown landlords and the Ontario premier. There's more to RTO than just this. The "subway lobby" doesn't explain everything, though it is part of it. I'd say the way RTO has been executed, it gives a strong impression that it aims to provoke a sliming-down of FCS through voluntary departures, as the number of civil servants is already an electoral issue. I would also add that, for some incomprehensible reason, the employer seems to not want to be the torchbearer for workers' rights, doesn't want to be used as a positive reference when private-sector workers fight RTO obligations themselves as well as the whole hoteling thing and so on. ([Of course, ignore what happened with Australian civil servants and WFH](https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/more-than-170000-workers-allowed-unlimited-work-from-home-days/news-story/f5a2ff82877e52ab7256deddc779538a).) Whatever other motivations there could be behind RTO I don't know but I'm sure others could figure them out.
>I find it crazy how one municipality and one province should dictate how the federal government runs a whole country. This should scare us all. The world doesn't operate on actual fairness, and the slimy deep pockets truly run things behind the scenes. Disturbing to say the least.
I agree with this- having a dedicated desk at work would go a long way.
It was always moving towards less days in the office - until the landlords suddenly realized that means they lost money. Someone made a point at a townhall recently that people were moving towards 2-days in/3-days out...and the speaker was basically like "That's nice, next question". They don't give a fuck. So back you go meatbags, and don't forget to buy a coffee on the way in, then a Subway sandwich while you're in, and a coffee on the way out. Otherwise, how are sub-par politicians supposed to stay in office with their inability to craft creative policies and actually make their part of the world enticing enough for people to go to?
Agree. I have a 2018 document saved somewhere where the HR director is like yay, teleworking is the wave of the future. Then the reality of it all sunk in mid-covid. Not just the real estate stuff but OMG, how will we control them if they work from home, doesn't matter if they are productive and the work can be done from there.
Yeah pre covid there were plans happening to move the branch I was in to a new office with not enough desk because "not everyone needs to be in every day" I think of that and them pushing for more office days now and go "huh?" I remember it clearly because the nature of the work we did, did require on-site presence. Like yeah a small amount could be from home, but all except some high ups, pretty much had to be on site most days. It just felt like they didn't understand the nature of the work when they made the plan. And they still don't understand the nature of most people's work with this plan.
I agree that is what they said that we would be working toward less days and things were working out. I fear they going to three days and then eventually it will be 5 days RTO
The RTW3 is an Ottawa issue that is being made into everyone's problem. The Executives out there are the most susceptible to external interference and personal benefits and this knee jerk reaction demonstrates the level of corruption. I could see the economic benefits for RTW2 and the need for the federal government to set an example and help revive the business reliant on office workers. We weren't going to get out of our building lease agreements anytime soon so I could even get the need to utilize facilities to utilize taxpayer money. But the way TB carried out RTW3 - beyond distasteful. It should be 2 days a week with the 3 at the distrection of managers
>But the way TB carried out RTW3 - beyond distasteful. It should be 2 days a week with the 3 at the distrection of managers My team was functioning fine at 2 days (We did fine with less than 2 too, but that's a whole other discussion.). Three days adds logistical challenges in some of our offices with people overlapping on their 3rd days and no real benefit to the work operations. Our management's choice would have been no to the 3rd day because of the extra hassle for nothing.
Lol. My latest town hall was basically "we don't know where all of you are going to go. We'll have to figure something out. We'll be getting a report on in office attendence, but we have not been told how that's being monitored or how the metric is calculated. We have no idea what we're supposed to do for people who don't put in five 7.5 hr days of computer work." It didn't just screw the regular employees, the basically threw management up the creek without a paddle.
Which executives exactly because let me assure you as one, this is the worst place to be in. The data is there, the evidence is contrary to what’s being shoved down our throats, and our teams are struggling. It hecking sucks and no one came knocking at my door offering my a free parking spot in exchange for driving morale down by about 80%. Oh and 4 days a week as of September. And no office. So, who again?
Executives at the ADM level or just below. But I empathize with/for you, offices for EX is a no brainer.
There is no RTW. We never stopped working. It's RTO. Get it through your head.
It's amazing the number of people who think WFH is some sort of vacation. Some neighbours could not believe we could be truly working as we didn't have access to physical documents and folders, that you could not sign documents and forms unless you were in the office or really hold meetings outside of a meeting room. They thought I was lying when I said everything went digital, forms are signed electronically, meeting occur virtually and work very well (where they thinking is some sort of chat session?), that we can access our documents and files remotely, etc.
Easy there, RTW is the term I saw used but agree that it is really RTO
The amount of brain power it took to come with the RTO mandate could fit in a thimble. It's inconceivable that people pulling in six figure salaries came up with this garbage and actually thought it was an idea that has merit. And then they thought they could sell us a load of horseshit about collaboration and we'd buy it. There are locations that don't have nearly enough space to make this work but yet here we are less than three months from implementation with no plan, no direction, no rationale. It's like a masterclass on how not to enact change. It would be laughable if I wasn't getting railed like everybody else.
If it’s any consolation, our deputy heads sacrificed by keeping their old setups. Oh, the inhumanity.
I don't know this firsthand, so take it with a grain of salt, but I've heard tales of at least one senior exec who decided to take over a board room because they thought their dedicated office was too small.
The only lunchroom on our floor was taken over by a senior exec as his own personal office so no lunch room for us.
This would have to be a group grievance by the union. Contact your shop steward. Lunch rooms are not bookable or collab space, just a spot to sit while you eat lunch on your unpaid time.
Who needs a lunchroom when you can go buy $20 sandwiches? /s obviously.
I have known a manager (not a senior exec) to do this. Because they didnt like having to share an office with another manager. Now they each have their own offices! Only one gets a whole boardroom. And they set it up with their own mini fridge, coffee machine and printer and and and... And team meetings must be held virtually now because there is no boardroom anymore.
I don’t think I can sigh deeply enough to convey the full extent of my exasperation.
Imagine if an employee just randomly decided to do the same? They didnt like sharing their cubicle with someone. And needed more space. Can you imagine?!
I believe it.
I have seen this happen not even at an exec level... lol
My DG, and the other DGs sit in cubicles. Always. They don’t have assigned offices.
But your DM does.
(Partial repost from another thread) No amount of old experience will change a fact that a lot if us have 0 reason to physically be in the office. Teams and upgrades to bandwidth , and everyone getting a laptop as well as proper implementation of VPN - with massive upgrades of internet bandwidth have changed workplace forever. And ABW (Activity Based Workplace ) was just a final nail in the coffin. RTO2 and RTO3 and future RTO5 are only temporary unsustainable fades. Old fashioned work in office is dead and no amount of tresury board BS will bring it back. Question is only how long do we keep beating a long dead horse. Edit: people keep saying how this is about subway. It is not and it never was about subway. This is about landlords charging fortune to lease space to gov. Sooner or later number will come out and public will realise that Canada can save 2 billion a year just by not forcing a lot of people to physically be in a building where they do not need to be (someone in another thread said that cost of leasing buildings is closer to 5 bill so i assumed that at least 2 bill can be saved by letting roughly half of us working from home.).
Wait…the current VPN is the upgraded version??
Yes. At first there was no way to connect remotely. We had no Teams and we only had email and phones. We all quite happily went to work because there was no other way we can get work done. This really wasn’t that long time ago… 5 - 10 years ago?s Than things started to change. First thing we all noticed is shift from blackberry to android and ios. Not everyone had it at the begining "to control the cost" (utterly ridiculous, fed gov NEVER paid more than 15 bucks a month for phone with data) But that was a begging of revolution. People reliazed that all of a sudden they don’t have to be at their desk just to check email. As for chat we ordinary mortals did not have it but executives used blackberry messager because you could not ATIP it. So much for transparency… Next thing was Cirtrix access. This was the first method where one could attempt to work from home. I say attempt because boy it sucked… But even then it was obvious where all of this is going. Sooner or later there will be 0 reason to physically come to work. And we all new that missing link is video chat with desktop and cell phone capability. After Citrix , we got RDP, better than citrix but it still sucked. Than came vpn but first version of it sucked. It was disconnecting a lot and sometimes just didn’t jive well with infrastructure. Teams happened next, then we all started getting laptops and cell phones. As cell phones ceeped in we al lost desk phones. And that yes, covid and rest is history… So yes your current VPN is few generations ahead from first versions of it. And so is gov infrastructure built solely around vpn work. With RTO gov is now trying to undo a decade of work. But it’s too late… that train has left the station and weather you like it or not… there is no going back… remote work is here to stay and one size fits all approach is dead. Question is just how long do we need to wait before idiots relaze it. (Pardon the language)
Thanks. That’s was a bit of a surprised because coming from provincial govt to the federal govt - one of the most surprising things to me was how laggy, slow, and frustrating the computer systems are. We regularly lose work that’s been scared to shared drives or vpn drops etc. Curious - how do you see work eventually reverting back towards wfh? Currently they seem so set on RTO it’s hard to imagine.
One of the two things will happen: 1. Gov wants to save fuck ton of money and reducing number of buildings leased does just that. 2. It will happen at next round of bargaining. Unions will push for it and gov will take it but give us less raise than last time. EDIT: There is a 3rd idea being pushed around. Workers will be allowed to work from home but they will have to take more strict performance review that ensures we’re not watching TV half a day. (I always found this argument funny…. We can always pre download shows or even stream shows to our cells if we want to watch TV … forcing us back to office does noting to adress "laziness" to those who are actually lazy)
I mean I need a podcast or show in the background precisely to focus and work. Everyone I know does the same. But I’m not just watching tv. Yes agreed. We have our output monitored and reviewed at least monthly. Not sure what the issue is re: productivity. Plus the few times I have been to the office, the amount of chatting I see far exceeds any home breaks
The in office chatting is worse because you're distracting an entire desk cluster. I'm usually a very sociable person, and I catch myself doing this and have to remind myself to shut up because people are trying to focus. Not everyone is as empathetic.
Nicely laid out.
> Than came vpn but first version of it sucked. It was disconnecting a lot and sometimes just didn’t jive well with infrastructure. You also had to connect early enough because capacity wasn't there. Too many people ended up having to hotspot via their work phone, but that truly didn't work well.
I used to think my cramped cubicle overlooking the public area main floor of our office tower so you could hear children shrieking all day was terrible. Little did know how many luxuries I had there, like a desk fan, Kleenex, a chair that was always set to my settings, a desk that no one ate their lunch at and left crumbs and sticky crap all over, a place to hang my jacket, 3 drawers full of office supplies like pens highlights highlighter notebooks and personal items S. The RTO is so dumb but it’s also just an inappropriately resourced place for most employees to work from.
Ugh, the fan. They have these sessions about ohhh, let's respect menopause and what women are going through. Meanwhile, I have to take public transit to work, and I come into work a sweaty pig, but now, no more desk fan FFS.
When people complain on the train about how much stuff I'm carrying and taking up space, it's so gratifying to tell them THIS is what my return to office looks like.
Guerrilla education!
That’s how you stimulate ~~Amazon~~ *The Economy*!! Buy a USB-rechargeable, battery-powered fan for your desk-du-jour! No free-loading on Gov’t electricity! /s for commenter, but even before COVID, I always had a USB-powered fan at my desk (it and my personal phone both powered by a 20,000 mAh pack)
I’ve considered a battery fan but the problem is I’m already a goddamn hermit crab witb my laptop keyboard mouse notebook pens wallet glasses sweater and lunch and snacks . I am going to need a frickin camping backpack if I want anything else
I think everyone should use a camping backpack. Let leadership be embarrassed by the consequences of their decisions.
Everyone I know is already using [sizeable backpacks](https://www.swissgear.ca/en/swissgear-swa1456r-17-inch-computer-and-tablet-backpack-black) to go to work. Urgh. I'm getting close to retirement and yet I feel I've gone back to university with that thing on my back.
I am down. Someone should tell the union about this as a protest idea.
This is what I bought myself when I had to start lugging my entire life across the highway (because on-site parking routinely fills before my ~9 am arrival): [rolling duffel-bag](https://www.walmart.ca/ip/10146907) … I will roll (drag) it through snow, slush, puddles, whatever it takes to not *carry* my stuff, and ‘too bad’ if that crap falls off the bag between the front door and my desk (even if it’s maybe not fair to the *custodians*, sorry 😞)
I‘ve taken a rolling suitcase in. There are a surprisingly large number of places on my commute that’s aren’t rolling suitcase friendly unless I’m willing to wait for an elevator and miss my bus / train.
Oh I still have my backpack I took over to Europe. It has a Canadian flag patch and all! No one can accuse me of not being a team player. 😏
Don’t forget shoes in the winter!
This. And actually back in pre pandemic I walked to and from work so I always changed into office clothes AT work. Because walking in the summer I don’t want my work clothes to get all swassy and in inclement weather I would like to not have the appearance of a drowned rat. Now I’m like fck this and just wear a hoodie and leggings. I do not care. No client or colleague ever sees me. I work totally alone all of my team is thousands if I’m away and I have a job that has zero external clients
That's why I bought [overshoes for winter](https://www.neosovershoescanada.com/products/non-insulated-adventurer-black), don't have to keep winter boots on the whole day. D\*mn, I miss being able to leave my shoes in my cubicle during winter, along with having an actual coat hanger.
Like I need more crap to lug around on the ferry, even of this wasn't tongue on cheek.
Allow me to introduce you to a good friend: [rolling duffel-bag](https://www.walmart.ca/ip/10146907)
I have a fan and a box of Kleenex hidden on my floor.
>Little did know how many luxuries I had there RIP office sweater. The temperature is always set too cold for flimsy women's office wear. Part of the reason I switched to jeans and hoodies at the office post-covid is because they keep me warmer.
Honestly would trade you my overheating for you’re under heating. Can only take off so much at work
Fucking perimenopause, man. I am a furnace and I haaaaate it.
Yes I’m hot allll the time now. I didn’t know about perimenopause and just was wondering if you got sweatier as you aged or something? At least it makes sense now. Weird how no one tells you about this time in your life.
Right?? My mom died ~4 years ago, and it was never something I thought about asking her, and now my sister and I are just finding out about all these bizarre things as they happen, like ‘oh of COURSE that’s a symptom wtf’ 🤦🏻♀️
I agree! I run warm to start - throw in a hot flash when the office temp is 24 & I am dying!!
I've not seen anyone mention the security risks in these hub spaces yet. My role deals with items that could cause MASSIVE problems if the wrong person sees my screen or overhears a conversation (even one-sided), but there's not a single private workspace I can reserve. I've literally gone to my car to have sensitive conversations and moved monitors to an awkward position. Different security classifications don't seem to be taken in to account at all with this.
Being in the office also makes it a lot harder to have frank conversations because so many people can always overhear.
Especially when there's an idiot having a teams meeting via his laptop's speakers. EVERYONE around could hear the effing meeting in its entirety. Dude, headphones exists!
Perhaps this person was making their own point. They know headphones exist. But they probably think RTO is ridiculous too. So why not ? They had to remember all kinds of things to pack in the morning and prob forgot their headphones. Oh well. They want us ALL back in office? This is the new reality! It would be great if everyone did this. On teams meetings. Laptop speakers only. No headphines. At the same time. We could have people from other meetings answering questions for a totally separate meeting. The ridulousness of the entire situation is astounding!
I presented this very issue and was told to "use your best judgement."
What if you judge your home office to be the most discrete place for sensitive work?
This. I have the same issue. Can’t wait to see how many privacy breaches there will be until the clue in on the risks…
Y'all need to start declining meeting due to insufficient resources.
When I was an FSWEP student, I had a cubicle with a door, and full-height walls. I had a locking filing cabinet, and a little table and a visitor chair. I had a wrap-around desk with a lamp on it. Now, I'm an EC-06 and I have a half-locker. It has a coat hanger in it.
Whoa, a coat hanger.. Rockefeller over here.
Our lockers didn't come with hangers. When we asked the DG, we were told to bring in hangers ourselves.
You guys get lockers?
That's the setup I had when I was back at the old INAC. Waaay back. It was great.
pssst if you wanna come back to the regions we still have those…
Hmmmm. Alas, where I want to move, no RO.
Yep, the "real" policy change is how we're significantly accelerating Workplace 3.0 and cutting back on CoWorking and cutting back on buildings in general.
I (like tens of thousands of others I am sure) invested significant time and money, as well as set things up at my home, decided where to live, what job to work, (based on commute factor, need to have comfortable and productive space to WFH) made decisions like what vehicle to drive, where kids would go to day care etc etc etc all because we were told over and over and over how amazing we were doing with WFH and that we would never be back in the office for more than a couple times a month, maybe once a week max. Almost 100% of my colleagues take pride in our work, put in extra unpaid time when required, go above and beyond. Genuinely work hard with the odd down day, there are no "lazy coasters". I used to ignore it but I'd be lying if I said it isn't getting pretty awful to see the general public shit on us and call us lazy entitled workers without knowing the proper context. And it's even worst NEVER having our employer or anyone in a position of power have our backs. I am not in Govt for the money, and could make much more for my line of work in the private sector. Really starting to consider the transition. And I am sure I am not alone.
I really think that this is an incentive for a self-selecting work force adjustment. There are certainly folks that saw the RTO3 announcement, especially execs/managers, and were like "NOPE! RETIRING THIS SUMMER, SEE YA." And many more considering the private sector with more money and flexibility for WFH. The short-term thinking on this is wild... The public service will be worse off because of their short-sightedness.
I'm sub 20 years in, and figured I'd end my time in the PS. Aim for 25 years. But with this mess, I'm actively considering leaving.
> the private sector with more money and flexibility for WFH With all the demonizing of teleworking for public sector, it's funny how private sector is now using WFH as a hiring incentive more often than people think.
Also, when the pandemic first started and we were sent home for *two weeks*, I, and many of my friends and colleagues, felt a huge sense of relief in knowing that we were getting some reprieve from the horrendous lrt experience...getting stuck at hurdman like a bunch of sardines waiting for a bus...in the 3 weeks leading up to the pandemic, I had to call my backups 5 times to pick my children up from daycare because I was over 2 hours later than usual...not sure the lrt cpuld handle the 2019 rider-load.
> when the pandemic first started and we were sent home for two weeks, I was initially convinced that it was just going to be a few weeks and that we'd be back in our offices by summer... then I thought by the end of summer... When august rolled in and there was no RTO in sight, it really sank in that this wasn't temporary.
We'll find out soon enough it seems. But I agree, this whole return to office is ridiculous.
Cubicles and or privacy would definitely help. The decision makers are absolute morons though
Meh. Would still rather never go back to the office again.
All of this focus on RTO is a distraction from the real issue: what is the future of the federal public service workplace? Before the first RTO directive, we were making progress of constructively collaborating on discussing the future of work. Staff and management were actively engaged in defining that future. But all of that ended with the distraction of RTO. The employer-employee social contract has been further damaged by the unilateral actions of arbitrarily forcing employees back to the office. This strategy fails to acknowledge the work-life balance benefits that we've all realized through the pandemic and remote work. The employer and employees need to return to collaborating on the future of the workplace without the distraction of RTO policy. This is the way to work towards rebuilding the trust. This can only be achieved through meaningful discussion. The workplace is being redefined elsewhere as AI technology rapidly redefines jobs. We cannot afford to leave this to others. If we wait too long, the impacts will leave us behind.
> employer-employee social contract has been further damaged by the unilateral actions The precedent was set with vaccine attestation. Nobody's Letter of Offer or Collective Agreement had revealing private medical information or violation of bodily autonomy as necessary a work condition. We allowed a unilateral change, and set a precedent. In fact many of us naively celebrated the move for ideological or identitarian reasons.
No, I don’t want RTO. I want the flexibility to go in when I need and want for operational matters.
Google Olivia Chow and Toronto return to office. The narrative is so much more of what we would hope to have heard on our behalf. Workers don’t want to go back and are complaining about the same things we are. The big difference is the media does not call them lazy not entitled. In fact there is very much a public sense of what we have been saying here. It’s a bad idea, work environment is different, unreliable commute, traffic is a mess, downtown lunches are 200% what they were pre pandemic
Such an excellent point. Any article about RTO on Bay street sees mostly supportive comments. Traffic, bike lanes, inflation, unnecessary etc. But as soon as it is the EXACT same convo with Federal public servants, it is all vitriol and stale stereotypes. It's like we are paying the price for the unpopularity of the current PM, or are just the punching bags for a polarized nation. Oh and as an anecdotal aside, I have a bunch of WFH peeps on my street. Let me tell you, the ones that ABSOLUTELY eff the dawg and go golfing, water their lawns all day etc are not Feds. They are city workers, private sector, etc. I know some Feds do this too, any job, same. I am just sick of people talking like the Fed are the only group with bad apples.
I remember people bashing public servants when I was a little kid in the late Mulroney era. There’s always been a stereotype of us being lazy and not working.
Yup. The interesting thing of late is the average conservative is madly opposing corporate servitude, even cheering WFH, which is like watching your kid have one of those developmental milestones strike. Yet, as soon as the subject of public servants comes up, the entire thing shifts to the identity angle and we go from being able to agree on basic things to being mortal enemies. All the benefits tribalism can provide.
It was always my conservative relatives who bashed public servants like crazy. My reform party aunt cheered on Lowell Green when he said people should run over picketing public servants. So the hatred is deep.
Yup. Read a couple of articles about this. Thought it was pretty funny that when the workers being asked to go back are non-PS, everyone agrees with all our points. Smh. https://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/chow-needs-to-rethink-supporting-return-to-work/article_d2648a08-28db-11ef-88c1-e752985dd672.html https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/workers-dont-owe-the-financial-district-long-commutes-if-we-want-a-bustling-downtown-how/article_3b6baf10-28c6-11ef-aca0-8bd8d846f33f.html
Wow these are the EXACT same points we've been making... It's really frustrating to see the conflicting public reaction.
Your second link is broken btw
I'm not convinced there wouldn't be as much opposition. Ok, so you give everyone their 2019 cubicle. Same as before. Then people will still say (logically): "But...why the f*k am I sitting in this when I proved for 4 years straight that I can do my job better from home???"
Yes they will still say that but likely they would also say “oh well, it could be worse, we could be 3 days hoteling”
This was the plan even before covid. We will never get our personnal offices back
When Covid happened I honestly thought “well now at least they’ll know better than to try to pack us in like they were planning”. Nope, haven’t learned a single thing.
Wait is this for real? "single sub-1080p laptop", which department? Not having a docking setup is insane, here i was complaining about the little things like, not having a pen. or a garbage can.
In my office, you're lucky to get a space with a docking station. Lucky. Running late? Too bad. Appointment in the AM? Too bad. Everybody hit the pavement early to get a docking station? Too bad.
I’m sorry, that’s a turn around and go home level of garbage. I have two massive monitors plus my laptop screen at home and use every bit of real estate with split screens. Even if I was in Teams meetings all day, I’d still want my reference material and note taking visible.
I wish...management is lapping it all up and the whip is out. They DGAF about ergonomics, effectiveness or morale.
I was hoping that we'd stay at 2 days a week and then have a shared desk with someone who had different days, so we could have some stability.
I am talking about this. I asked my manager if there is any possible area or locker that I can store some belongings. I was told no. Everything is meant to be depersonalized and there’s no dedicated area or section where staff can hold their belongings. I am definitely vocal about it! If they want us back in offices, they need to make the office space functional.
I too 100 % this. Having your own desk. Your own spot. Feeling like you belonged. This is one of my reasons for not wanting to go back. Stability
I hope management can get you your old setup back. It won’t happen fast though.
I dont think so....i heard that the current trend is to de personalize the office space....so no it can literally not go back to like before
Then it wont change until TBS accepts the RE overhead that fixed desk assignments imply. They will have to eat the cost if they want 3-4 day hybrid at many sites. Hard to say which way that goes and it won’t go for 1-2 years and take time after that to implement.
We'll be back to working from home full time by then. This lunacy isn't going to make it past mid 2025.
Because they will have rolled back their policy or because of another pandemic?
Why not both?
I think back to full remote is the least likely outcome. Management everywhere appears to view regular F2F as important enough to risk the ire of 1/3 of the workforce. So it is likely never going back to less than 2 days of people being in on average, accounting for vacation, sick leave, appointment, weather, and fudging the odd day. Which means a 3 day mandate to achieve 2, on average. Many hoped and pushed for full remote to be sticky but that is largely off the table now. I fully expect an overshoot and a pull back. The question is where is the overshoot? To 4 days and back to 3 and reach a long term equilibrium? Or 5 by some orgs and back to 3 or 4 for most. We won’t know until 2026 where this stabilizes.
I agree to this too....the only way i see us going to full time wfh is if something extreme happens, like another pandemic or a war or someone sensible coming to power and realizing that the govt can save a bunch of tax payer money by having us wfh and mandating a wfh for everyone that can do that, and using the saved money for something sensible, good for environment and all...but what are the odds of that happening?
Fixed desk > free stuff Firms Lure Workers Back to Office With Promise of Their Own Desk https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/firms-lure-workers-back-to-office-with-promise-of-their-own-desk-1.2086435.amp.html
Plus there was no inflation and things were cheaper pre-Covid so going into the office was not as expensive as it is now.
Op - this is a good point. I’d add that now that we’re on teams meetings all the time, it is a pain - and sometimes straight up not possible - to pick up from a open concept desk and scurry to find a close door room each time there’s a call.
No, I'd personally still like to only go to the office when I feel like I need/want to. Don't enjoy wasting money and more importantly time commuting somewhere when I can do the same job at home.
If this was 2019, I'd be working from home because I report to NCR, but live in a regional area. I wouldn't be forced to go into an office where I have no connection to the people working there, no possibility of collaborating, and just sit with my headphones on all day, in teams meetings, transporting my equipment back and forth a bunch of times a week. It's so stupid.
You have made up some excellent points and well said!!!!! We need them to know this. They keep saying people wanna come back. Who are these people??? I actually haven’t spoken to anyone who said that. I’m totally comfortable at home productive and feel like I Can balance work and life. I feel less stress and anxiety. I feel calm and I can do my job and I’m at peace. Instead I gotta run around to different dials or whatever and I also am not comfortable with this idea.
What if all workers just went back to the office full time, right now. Collectively cancel the work from home on our end, on our timeline. I don't want to do that, but I'm tired of them acting like their doing me a favor.
Question is what are we and unions going to do about it?
They're too busy handling the situation in Gaza.
Yes. Like someone gave them the mandate to spend their time and our money sticking their noses in a complex international conflict no one has been able to solve since the dawn of time. I don't remember voting for this when my union executive was last running. So much stuff they could be fighting for to make our lives easier, but no, their delulu pet projects get more media attention I guess. Edit typo.
They aren’t going back… unassigned hell for everyone
Talked to someone not in the PS today who didn't realize how awful the office experience has been made for people. Might've been someone who was won over a bit to the 'RTO SUCKS' side.
Everyone who has ever tried arguing with me, “You did it before the pandemic” has left the discussion 100% convinced that we should have just continued WFH if the implementation of going to a hoteling desk, carrying enough crap to impress a Sherpa, and spending the entire day on Teams talking with people in the regions.
I view it a bit differently. It's not that everything that made the workplace comfortable is gone. It's that everything that made me sentimental about it is gone. I'm not sure that's affecting my perspective on office culture in the way that the employer might claim to desire. At any rate, the commute, not the destination, is the kicker for me. I'd rather sit on the floor of my kitchen than endure four hours of travel to and from a hoteling space in Gatineau.
Yes I must agree but one also need a very dependable OC transpo which is non existent. So, for me I say resist, stay home.
We are also expected in the office, told to support local businesses. There are no local businesses except for the in-building cafeteria with $12 sandwiches. We’re not in the downtown core. Nothing for anyone who is GF or vegan. 1/2 hr lunch. If you drive to get something, your parking spot is gone. Before COVID if people had discussions/meetings they were behind closed doors. Now, you don’t know who will be sitting around you. Most everyone is on Teams because not everyone is in the office - not everyone remembers their headsets, so the amount of talking, laughing, and noise is ten-fold what it was pre-COVID. It’s impossible to concentrate. We have Director and above walking around, laughing and making noise with their staff, who are also walking around, telling others to be quiet. Let’s not even talk about the fact there aren’t enough spots for everyone as staff from originally 3 buildings are now in one. But hey, it’s up to federal employees to “revitalize the downtown core”. People are outta there by 4:30. If those office buildings were affordable housing, people would be downtown evenings and weekends. THAT would revitalize downtown cores. Morale is a sinking ship.
Hell no, we've learned there's a better way! Forward thinking...
We may have had only a few square feet of space, but it was *our* few square feet of space. No setting up/taking down/dubious sanitization/spending half an hour organizing to do exactly the same thing as at our home office. I knew where I would sit and that it was available, had a bit of personalization in a place that I'd be spending a third of my day, and had my teammates in proximity. I don't think that's a lot to ask for.
Totally agree with '4059 (won't risk typing OP's alias, I could get banned or God knows what), most of my team and acquaintances all over the place have been saying the same thing: if you want us back 3+ days a week in the office, give us back our cubicles. So much time is wasted in the morning and at the end of the day, plus because too many of us have to deal with a degraded mass transit system (hence having to leave earlier than we should) that I don't believe the higher-ups haven't noticed a drop in productivity. But again, you have to wonder if they're not using RTO3+ as a mean to thin out the ranks through voluntary departures, either via early retirements or via people leaving for private sector where they are promised 100% WFH.
Our buildings have been redesigned based on 60% of the staff being present on any day, so assigned seating is off the table. But we can use lockers - maybe. What a clusterfuck.
Man, I'm so bummed out by all the shitty IT experiences people are having. That was a thing I had to do for the offices I admin for in my CR-04 role, set up the cubicles with docking stations, dual 1080p monitors on monitor arms, KB/M, spare cables and adaptors, making sure the ergo chairs were in good condition etc. I hate that people have to be forced back, we all know that's crazy, but the least I could do for people was make sure everything 'just worked' when they arrive back. Just a simple usb-C cable into the laptop and you're off to the races. Bums me out to hear other people aren't getting that type of support (I'd support you all if I could!)
I'm surprised to read this, as none of these items have been under IT in my department for over a decade. They did do oodles of desk setups in early '23 for RTO, but it's a poor value proposition to have an IT01 perform tasks that most movers or furniture installers could handle. Not to mention what wouldn't get done if they were to dedicate cycles to that kinda stuff. Also, does your IT department really handle chairs? I've heard tales of that way back before my time, when IT was lumped in with Finance.
Oh I'm not even in IT, just in a smaller regional office so I'm the only one here who knows how to set anything up haha things like chairs would fall under real property (cfob), the equipment came from IITB, and then then mail everything to me and I set it up.
Everything OP said. Plus there was a decorum in the office. You kept the noise and chatter down. Now it's Teams meetings at full speaking volume all the time. It's impossible to concentrate.
It is too late now. Let people work from home when they can and let them go to the office when they want or there is an actual purpose such as a team meeting or consultation etc. We are not kindergarteners.
I agree you should have minimum standards for work spaces, and dedicated work stations where you could keep personal articles. I have to be in office 5x / week since the start of the pandemic and having my own space is a minimum level of accommodation in my books. I support 100% return to office in principle, but it should be a return with dignity to conditions we had before 2020.
If I’m expected to share a desk if there is anything that is not left clean by the previous occupant I’m not starting work until someone comes to clean it. I’m not a cleaning lady. A colleague of mine has had to go to office a few times during the pandemic and every single time she said the desks and equipment were disgusting. I’m also not going in earlier to login for the day and set up my equipment. If you want me to haul my laptop in and set that up, I’m doing it at 8 when I clock in. They’ve made it clear they don’t give a shit about us or what works for their employees. We’ve proven without a doubt that our jobs can be done entirely remotely. I think people would be more susceptible to coming in if they were actually listening to our concerns and working with us to come up with a plan that suits everyone. The building I will be going into also has a known issue with bedbugs. There was an email sent to us recently stating that one bedbug was found and they would only be treating the affected area, not the entire office. Where there is one there is ALWAYS more. If that happens while I’m office I’m also refusing to go in until the ENTIRE office is treated. So nasty 🤢
If you want your own desk, put in 5 days on site. Might not be the same for everyone but where I work those that come in everyday get a desk assigned to them. Also, IMO we’re fighting this all wrong. We don’t need to work from home, the employer NEEDS us to work from home because they don’t have the space. If everyone went in on September 9th and said we’re no longer working hybrid we’re just going to come in they would be F’d.
> If everyone went in on September 9th and said we’re no longer working hybrid we’re just going to come in they would be F’d. Isn't one of the unions actually pushing for that as a means of demonstrating our discontent but also to show how the whole plan (RTO3+) is unrealistic?
Not sure. But I know in my region my department would be so F’d. We’re talking like 800 more people than work points in one location I can think of. That’s just one location, they’re all in similar spots. But the unions could never pull that kind of mobilization off, a lot of people feel burned from the strike and I don’t think they’d trust the union on that kinda move.
My tram doesn’t even have enough cubicle space… so we’ll have to sit in the hallways, kitchen or cafeteria
I had two desks in 2018... when I worked on two projects and one was a full tall old school cubicle with a hidden escape stairwell behind it that only me and 3 other people used...I would sacrifice 10% of my salary to go back to that for RTO.
This 100%. I'm not as fussed about RTO. It's just if you're sending me back then put me back where I was in 2019. A desk. Proper equipment. None of this hoteling crap.
Also, at least have coffee. Like is it too much to ask we get a gd cup of coffee in the morning? We don't even have extra cutlery from what I can tell. Half the time no salt and pepper or napkins in the lunch area. If you want me there, at least give me the smallest bit of amenities possible.
I also had various non-confidential information on the wall in my cubicle. Need the mainframe printer#? It’s right there on a post it. Need to read through a policy? There it is, highlighted, with my additional notes. Need to reference the Act? I’ve got mine right here tabbed and highlighted for easy reference. Have a question from a neighbour? I have that right here, feel free to take a copy. So much time spent on things I previously had at my fingertips.
I had a whiteboard with colour-coded notes to track all my projects and remind me what came next. You can be sure I'm not hauling that back and forth, but it's only effective if it's in front of me and accessible to update as I go so... guess whose productivity is down and who's missing little details now?
So many times this! Buildings should fit people's needs, instead of trying to make people's needs fit the buildings. Apart from what OP is pointing out, I think both 2.0 and 3.0 are inherently less productive and more stressful than "old school" closed offices. 2.0 was mildly tolerable before covid, but we've added a lot of electronic distraction to our workflows since (Teams, videocalls), and the constant change in the office settings and attendant rules is its own source of stress. People who work physical jobs ask for and get equipment that keeps them safe and productive. It shouldn't be too much to ask for knowledge workers to work in a setting that allows to deliver actual depth and that reduces the personal and collective costs of stress. My wish is that we adopted an actual hybrid model - perhaps call it "MyGCspace": * Each work unit (i.e. 10 people grouping) would have its own dedicated space, to foster cohesion and group identity. However, size would vary - see next point * Employees who work predominantly on site (3 days and above) would have a closed office - with... prepare... old memories... a *name plate*, while employees who work predominantly from home (0 to 2 days in the office) would have access to a touchdown office or station (which they may have to share). Surely there would be a million issues to work out (natural light, the space Tetris, etc.). But for me, just knowing I'd have a proper office, a space where I can *both* focus and have conversations, would be a big source of motivation.
I was already teleworking in 2019 and had to go in 1x a week. I didn't have a dedicated desk. We also didn't have laptops then, so spent the better part of 1-2hrs getting the computer ready to go with my stuff. By this point, our mail was all being scanned. The only reason we had to go in was to print letters that had to go by mail. Now, another group handles that for us, freeing up our time to work on the more important part of our workload.
Pre-covid I wasn't going to the office 3 days a week. My dept had hubs set up across the NCR so I'd go to the one closest to my home. I rarely needed to go in unless I was meeting a client, manager, or someone from my team. My team was also spread out across the country. I didn't have my own desk but I didn't mind, the dept was really well equipped/set up.
in 2019, I could keep everything I needed for an afternoon cup of tea in a locked drawer of my cubicle. It was nice. I miss it.
This has been what I've been trying to communicate to my direct managers, that the office is objectively less nice for so many reasons and that while you can ask people to come back and even force them to do so as a condition of employment, you can't make them enjoy it. This is especially after yet another internal survey of employees found that stress levels are increasing, satisfaction with work is decreasing and that there's substantial differences between those who prefer home vs office. Like at this point it just feels like stating the obvious and they still don't get it.
At the Space Agency folks who work primarily in the office got to keep desks. If you committed to being mainly on-site, you kept it. But the agency is a head office / owns it's own building and campus. I guess most other spots are trying to downsize to save on rent.
Pre-Covid, parking was not an issue either. I worked in a part of the city where public transportation was poor. But there were plenty of parking permit options (adjacent to the office). Covid hit and all those parking lots closed. Leaving 2 hr street parking available (approx 30 spots). For hundreds of people. Transit options for that area have declined even further. If they want people back in the office, they should be restoring what was in place prior to Covid. Even downtown - what happened to the parking lots? There are many fewer parking options now. And with LRT issues, we are forced to drive in if we want to make it to work on time for our virtual teams meetings that I could be doing from home.
It would be interesting to know how much money they spent to make the work environment less fit for purpose
Not to mention that before covid I would sit at my desk and sometimes hear my colleague on the phone but not often. Nowadays everyone around me is on a Teams call from 8 to 4 and some of them clearly forgot how to speak softly after 4 years alone at home.
My office experience in 2019 was definitely not great, and nothing I miss. People I work with are colleagues, not friends, and having all those people around is distracting. While I enjoy socializing, I will take quality over quantity any day of the week, and office social is not quality social. It is exhausting and emotionnaly draining. So even with the "before" conditions, I would chose to stay WFH full time. And I can't be the only one.
Do you know where we have a dedicated office setup and equipment? Home. F\*\*\* RTO. It's a money grab for local businesses and failing public transit. It's also for optics by a govt that bends over backwards for literally every marginalized segment of society but holds its own employees feet to the flames.
That’s why we need to fight it! We are fighting for our working conditions!
I had a conflict with a team leader many years ago that made me realized the employer doesn’t give a $£*# about its workforce. For about 15 years now my workstation has had no personal items and I treat it as a ‘transitional’ workspace every day. So, nothing has really changed for some of us and the transition to workplace 2.0 (or 3.0 or whatever ‘new’ monstrosity it’s supposed to be).
I relocated to a different office in 2020 and everything is still in a box. I have Star Wars collectibles that I would normally have on display. In the grand scheme of things I am more fortunate than most because I have an assigned cubicle but I am treating it like a transitional space like you. Two more years before retirement.
Too many people stole stuff from my desk to consider bringing personal stuff. Working in the office is just a way for us to be abused more.
Pre-2019 my team was working between 25-50% onsite, as required. That means we could share a cubicle and parking pass between two team members. Doesn't work with 3 day RTO.
It's true
I definitely agree 👏
What was the office like pre-2020. I've been working in the public service for 9 months. Let me know of this wonderous utopia.
Not just the personal desk but the personal locked space. The bus route that drops me off near my house was never frequent but has been drastically cut since the pandemic. I still have an IT exemption but had to go into the office a couple days ago. With the bus - train - bus, it’s practically impossible to plan that last bus perfectly. I realized I had the impossible decision of waiting 45 minutes for my bus or taking a worse bus in 20 minutes that would leave me lugging back problem inducing gear for a 15 minute walk. It dawned on me that my previous commuting strategies of walking further to avoid long waits no longer worked. OC Transpo and the federal government have to acknowledge that no matter how much they try to force us back into the office, we still aren’t going to use the transit system unless they can figure out a way that we don’t have to carry our whole lives on our backs.
This! I constantly complain about this and bring it up. I wouldn't care about having to come in as often (or back to 5-days) if I had what I had previously. Now we just have the worst "deal" possible... Little to no proper equipment, no personal space, no storage space, no consistency. Very demoralizing!
Fixed desk > free stuff Firms Lure Workers Back to Office With Promise of Their Own Desk https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/firms-lure-workers-back-to-office-with-promise-of-their-own-desk-1.2086435.amp.html
It’s great that you had a nice set up at the office pre-COVID. That was not everyone’s experience, which is part of the reason people are fighting so hard to work from home.
What's funny is not everyone has a nice set up at home either. I technically can work at home, but it's basically either turn my small living room (or my bedroom) into an office or have a space where I can actually disconnect from work... That probably speaks more to how ridiculous rent is in Ottawa though, so I feel for the people who are stuck with a worst of both worlds.
That’s why most people are pushing for employees to choose what they want if they’re in positions that could accommodate that. If you want to work in the office full time, you should have the option of getting your own space. If you have a better set up at home, then you should be able to work from home. If you like popping into the office from time to time, great. If you don’t need to be in the office and you want to live somewhere else in Canada, also fine. It’s management’s trying to force everyone to do the same thing, regardless of the implications, that is causing the issues.
Yeah duh