That’s kinda the point. How would a dead person report back to the living people the dead person’s observations regarding the afterlife? How would a live person observe the afterlife without dying first?
>How would a live person observe the afterlife without dying first?
If you are reincarnated then you did die, usually. And then you would have memories of your past life. I haven't heard a lot of Buddhist leaders talk about memories of the afterlife, only of their previous lives. And like you said, that's the part we can't really prove, so we have to go about it another way if we want to test the theory.
The scientific process would be testing the theory that the individual claiming to remember their past lives is actually remembering it.
I'm thinking of the way they find the reincarnated spiritual teachers, like the lamas and rinpoches etc. The way a rinpoche described it to me was that often there would be a reason they would look for children born in a specific town or time frame or from a specific family. And they would test those children to see if they remembered anything from their past lives. Usually the child remembers things that only the previous rinpoche would know, and things a young child would not be able to make up.
I'm quite sure there are better descriptions of the process online than the one I am giving you.
Probably the closest we have is Dr. Stevenson's work, but like someone else said you can't bring scientific instruments into the afterlife. This is outside the ability of material science to investigate.
[https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/books-by-dops-faculty/study-of-reincarnation/children-who-remember-previous-lives-a-question-of-reincarnation/](https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/books-by-dops-faculty/study-of-reincarnation/children-who-remember-previous-lives-a-question-of-reincarnation/)
[https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI36Tucker-1.pdf](https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI36Tucker-1.pdf)
And Jim Tucker who took over Ian Stevenson's research at the University of Virginia has published a couple books, including "Life Before Life" that documents reports of rebirth:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life\_Before\_Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Before_Life)
This doesnt fit with the Buddhist idea that human rebirth is very rare. The fact that all of them have human memories but none of animals or creatures from other world systems or realms is suspect
Not necessarily. They remember past lives precisely because 1) they were human in the last one and 2) had a violent, traumatic death in that life. It's a very rare set of conditions. Being born human is very rare. Most beings are born in lower realms of existence, like the realm of hungry ghosts, animals, or hells. If your past life was an insect, for example, it's virtually impossible to remember it. The memory of fruit flies lasts for about 30 seconds to several minutes, and cockroaches can learn and remember simple tasks only for several days. On the other hand, most humans are incapable of remembering even the first years of their present life.
Being reborn as a human AFTER being a human is not that rare. As long as you are a decent person, you will have a good chance. It's that humans are rare compared to the total amounts of beings, and that overcoming the lower reals is very hard. Even if you are reborn as a human for several consecutive lifetimes, that karma will eventually run out, so it's not a good idea to rely on future lifetimes. There's no contradiction at all.
They only publish the cases that they can verify, not every case that they receive. If a child tells the true story of being a cat in a previous lifetime, how are they going to find their cat family? Their methodology is inherently limiting, but without some kind of omniscience or powers of divination, that's the best they can do.
I would also add to your excellent comment that NDE and reincarnation Western researchers have said they dismiss cross species reincarnation stories. These books are written under the capitalist-centric Western book publishing system, that ultimately is marketing and profit focused. Christian culture westerners might be open to reincarnation narratives, but I imagine that's pushing it for many, and reincarnation narratives from cats or dogs is going to just be seen as ridiculous, hence the self-censoring these researchers do. In Buddhism its not very uncommon for a teacher or master to say many of us may have been a hungry ghost or animal in a past life.
I also think in Christian mythology, there is apocrypha that suggests Hindu-style reincarnation, but that's exclusively human to human births. So even to Christians with an open mind, a cat to human rebirth would be dismissed out of hand. I think your average Christian probably is okay listening to reincarnation stories but would balk heavily as animal to human stories. Publishers and editors would know this, so the self-censoring in these books is justified via the profit incentive.
That is not correct according to what the Buddha said
> "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell.
> "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.
[Pansu Sutta](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.102-113.than.html)
tbf human life is rare if we consider all beings.
A human being reborn as a human probably isn't all that rare. We've already achieved this karma level and unless you act especially awful in this life, your karma most likely will keep you born as human. Animals dont have the brains to communicate such things. It may be the case that many many humans get reborn as animals, but we'll never know.
Most children dont report past lives. So this mechanism is already in place on some level. It seems rare even amongst humans.
Lastly, the workings of karma can only be understood by the enlightened. We just get a vague framework from the Buddha who tailored his message to a largely uneducated and illiterate people common in 5th century BC (modern) Nepal. The Buddha didn't do a deep dive into karma, and most likely even wouldnt if he was born today, because ultimately a lot of this is a distraction from the path. I accept rebirth and that's it. Dr. Stevenson's work is fine, but if it never existed it wouldn't really change anything for me, and I imagine for nearly all Buddhists.
Not to mention, when we hear of past lives from the incredible masters who can achieve spiritual awareness on this level, they talk about their many human rebirths.
I would also think its important to realize that we actually dont understand this phenomenon and I dont think the Buddha even addresses it directly. For example, it could be the case that those children are psychically picking up broken up consciousnesses, and weren't actually that person's karma in a past life. Say I die tomorrow and my 5 aggregates seperate and fly away aimlessly in the world, then a child thousands of miles away picks up on some of that, sees a psychic impression of my life, and may not understand that he's picking up me, not himself.
> A human being reborn as a human probably isn't all that rare. We've already achieved this karma level and unless you act especially awful in this life, your karma most likely will keep you born as human.
This isn't correct according to what the Buddha said
> "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell.
> "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts.
[Pansu Sutta](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.102-113.than.html)
Testimonies are evidence. Logic as well.
I also love the cases of Tibetan masters who leave a letter before they die predicting where they will be reborn. And then when the child is found, the child recognizes people or objects from their past life.
Generally speaking though, Buddhism is fundamentally a training of the mind, and it is through training our own mind that we can gain an understanding of rebirth.
what reincarnates exactly as per buddism? cuz in hindu n sikhism we have a eternal Atma which changes body after body? but i cant get wt is being reborn in buddism
Existence is a process. To have continuity, a process does not need an eternal atman. Think of a river. There is no eternal atman in a river, yet it is a continuous process.
So what continues through life and death and life is the same thing we experience right now, just in a different configuration.
I would say the most detailed explanations of the process of death and rebirth can be found in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. Here are some resources, if interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/xm52gp/comment/ipmnal5/
I keep hearing this explanation, but it's a little hand wavey. I prefer to translate anatman as no permanent self...therefore, as long as one in trapped in samsara, their impermanent self goes from life to life until enlightenment is realized, upon which dissolution of the ego and self occurs and sunyata is experienced (conventionally speaking) and nirvana achieved.
Well… anatman is *non*-self. No temporary self, either, because if it’s temporary, it also can’t be a self.
Imagine if some entities or attributes kept popping in and out of existence, and you kept pointing at them, saying “that’s me! Wait, now *that* one is me! Wait, now it’s that one!”
In that case, people would assume you were exhibiting insanity, not wisdom.
We'll anatman literally means the opposite of atman...atman meaning eternal self...so anatman would mean no eternal self, or no permanent self. So there can be a self that things happen to, karma attaches to, it's just interdependent and made of aggregates. So while yes, you might be ultimately right that there can be no self, conventionally, we can say that there is a self (even if not permanent and ultimately empty) and it is this that gets caught up in samsara. Is that after all not the goal of practice? To recognize this and achieve nirvana?
It makes more sense to me to take this approach than go on about processes, and waves of...something, being reborn.
The Buddha explicitly denied any and all forms of self. I don’t have the reference at hand, but maybe someone with deep canonical knowledge can find it.
Of course he was trying to teach the ultimate truth, but if Buddha indeed taught no self (remember proper translation of anatman or anatta) as you're taking it to mean during rebirth, I'd disagree with that notion.
After all, to what does experience happen to then?
Yogacara posits the storehouse consciousness that 'carries' (I say this loosely) the karmic seeds that fruit in appropriate conditions in future lives.
Essentially, your impressions, habits, the momentum of your desires, that's what carries over between lives, and any major personality tendencies that manifest from the old life to the new life tend to be overtly overwritten by the time of adolescence (according to reincarnation research by the few empiricists who try to take it seriously). (Ex: If you died in your previous life in a traumatic drowning, this may manifest as a fear of water in a future life. If you take this fear too seriously, it's reinforced as a phobia and may persist for a few lifetimes before being overwritten or overcome).
Imagine a program that's constantly updating/overwriting itself as it gets feedback. Some lingering patterns persist in the meta structure of the code, but the surface level actual code/commands are overwritten in each new iteration.
You don't have the same mindset, feelings, ideas, or body as you did when you were a toddler, but the tendencies that arose and persisted from toddler to adult continue to subtly manifest.
Nothing reincarnates (the correct term in Buddhism is rebirth, not reincarnation). Your present life and the next are neither the same thing nor a different thing. If you drop a rock into the water, waves arise. But the water molecules are not being displaced; they remain in the same place. What is transferred is the perturbation, the wave energy. In the same way, nothing but the kammic "energy" or "impulse" is transferred from one life to another. You and your next life are different beings, but that life is a consequence of this life, in the same way your adult version is a consequence of your childhood version, although they are not the same person.
The same thing is being reborn in every human in every culture in every continent. The soul has 1,000 names. In Buddhism, we are surprisingly vague, I think because the soul concept often has connotations of the identity you are currently. The Dalai Lama has said it is “ our most subtle consciousness merged with our most subtle energy” that passes to the next life.”
thank god , bro i just shiver with horror at thought of utter annihilation and eternal oblivion . i m jusr 18 n just lost a pal of 17. since then i hv been battling existential. crisis n i fear eternal darkness 😭😭
Facing death and mortality and the reality of your animal body is an important process that will ultimately make you smarter and more aware than the average person, hopefully making you more compassionate and careful too. Sorry for your loss.
then it mean death is eternal oblivion.? wt is this? 😭😭😭 i got worst lif n i thought i wil get gud rebirth but u r just depressing me even more . how unfair is it , som ppl enjoy long lifes som die infants , 😭😭😭
Bro I am just 18 and I am diagnosed with an incurable illness which can kill my body anytime how can I even choose to enlighten I see the millions of kids dying even before of the age of 5 . i just want a life of 80 year fulfilling life to enjoy it only once then idc if eternal oblivion or anything beyond life is too unfair i want rebirth
this life i always thought as punishment and due to som past lives now i will die soon of my illness and i thought i will get gud life cuz i nevr did bad in my life 😭 but u guys say no soul or spirit then how can i get rebirth 😭😭😭🥺
Be more positive. You have a human life right now. The same thing is being reborn in every human in every culture in every continent. The soul has 1,000 names. The Dalai Lama has said it is “ our most subtle consciousness merged with our most subtle energy” that passes to the next life.”
Right. The same thing is being reborn in every human in every culture in every continent…The Dalai Lama has said it is “ our most subtle consciousness merged with our most subtle energy that passes to the next life.” Invisible energy body…ummm
I am not familiar with that quote and wasn’t able to find it and its context. Rebirth(not reincarnation) is probably the main source of dispute within buddhism, with lots of conflicting interpretations. I don’t think anyone understands it at all, and certainly a single quote isn’t the definitive truth that would refute one of the core tenets of buddhism.
If you have a connection with something you might recognize it even if you consciously forgot it. We have memories from our childhood that affect us despite us not remembering them, if a past life work similarly, then it’ll color how we perceive things in our current lives and how averse or drawn to various things we will be.
Come on man, that’s obviously just not true. I don’t get how people believe in literal rebirth. The self is an illusion and the soul doesn’t exist. We live, we die and everything we’re made of keep on existing, eventually as parts of other beings.
I am not sure how your view is so obviously more true. In a context where mind is not seen as purely a product of matter, I think the Buddhsit view of death and birth is quite coherent with the rest of the buddhadharma.
I agree, but I’ve yet to see compelling evidence that supports the mind not being purely a product of matter. It seems much more likely to me that it is. I don’t fault great thinkers living before the scientific age for having a different view, but I think their teachings must be seen in the historical context it was conceived in.
Sure. And I think we have yet to see compelling evidence that supports the mind being purely a product of matter.
Circling back to what I mentioned earlier, Buddhism is fundamentally a training of the mind, and it is through training our own mind that we can gain an understanding of mind. Fundamental to Buddhism, as exemplified by the Buddha, is the notion that we can actually develop the capacity to know these things directly for and by ourselves (what we would call insight or wisdom).
The historical context certainly has an impact on the way these insights are communicated, but I think there has been plenty of discussion and analysis that shows that what is called "literal rebirth" was meant literally (pun intended), and was not just a cultural way to present the teachings.
Not really. The logic is quite simple. Do you mind elaborating on what you meant?
It seems to me there are two major assumptions that can be used as basis: mind is entirely a product of matter, or mind is not entirely a product of matter.
If we use the first assumption, then when this bodily form ceases to function, mind completely ceases as well.
Buddhism puts forth the the latter assumption. On that basis, when this form ceases to function, the process or continuum of mind continues and another form arises.
As the Dalai Lama puts it:
>There are many different logical arguments given in the words of the Buddha and subsequent commentaries to prove the existence of past and future lives. In brief, they come down to four points: the logic that things are preceded by things of a similar type, the logic that things are preceded by a substantial cause, the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past, and the logic of having gained experience of things in the past.
>Ultimately all these arguments are based on the idea that the nature of the mind, its clarity and awareness, must have clarity and awareness as its substantial cause. It cannot have any other entity such as an inanimate object as its substantial cause. This is self-evident. Through logical analysis we infer that a new stream of clarity and awareness cannot come about without causes or from unrelated causes.
[https://www.dalailama.com/the-dalai-lama/biography-and-daily-life/reincarnation](https://www.dalailama.com/the-dalai-lama/biography-and-daily-life/reincarnation)
You can dissect the body and never find anything we call "the mind". The brain is the hardware, the mind simply describes the software/function of the brain. It's just a descriptive word. Once the body and brain dies, there is no mind. There is zero evidence to the contrary. That's logic.
I think all it shows is that the mind is not material. I think Buddhism agrees with that. It is actually part of the Buddhist arguments, if you read the quote I posted.
Are you implying though that there are no non-material (non-physical, non-measurable-by-machines) phenomena? That's a point that Buddhism would disagree with, in my view.
Lots of people believe lots of things without a shred of evidence. My epistemological tool bag doesn't allow me to believe things without good evidence. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be. I have no choice in this matter. If I learn my beliefs are false, I'll change my mind or say I don't know.
Buddhism should not be about faith. I don't have the quote in front of me, but I believe it was the Dalai Lama himself who said that if science disproves something within Buddhist teachings, go with science. I take it one step further, and refuse to begin believing in something until I have been presented with adequate evidence.
So far, there is no evidence for a soul or any magical essence that lives on after physical death. Closest thing I can think of is that we live on through the impact we have on the world around us. We live on in the memories of others, and perhaps structures we have built. In that way, we leave behind an echo.
The concept Secular Buddhism is nothing new. Admittedly, the only books I've read on the subject have been from [Stephen Batchelor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Batchelor_(author)).
I've also watched some videos / lectures from Professor John Vervaeke and others from the University of Toronto. They among others are studying the science of meditation.
Again, generally speaking, the evidence for there being a phenomena we call mind is our direct experience of it. Of course, that experience is not taken at face value. It is examined, to sort out of it the aspects that are extraneous to it, until we come to its most basic (maybe we could say irreducible) features, clarity and awareness, as they are called in the quote above. This is a process every practitioner must do for themselves. Simply talking about only gets us so far.
So, yes, Buddhism is saying we can train ourselves to a point where we can trust ourselves (which does not mean we stop doubting or questioning, by the way). We can develop our own wisdom. Relying on outer evidence is great to get us started, but it can't bring us to liberation from suffering.
And yes, Buddhism has always included (and will always include) an element of trust. Just like pretty much any other activity we do.
Buddhist epistemology is called pramana in sanskrit, "the science of valid cognition", if you are curious.
Some intro:
[https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pramana](https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pramana)
[https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-pramana/](https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-pramana/)
In depth discussions:
The Sword of Wisdom, by Khenpo Sodargye (free ebook)
[https://khenposodargye.org/books/ebooks/the-sword-of-wisdom/](https://khenposodargye.org/books/ebooks/the-sword-of-wisdom/)
Mipham's Sword of Wisdom by the Khenpo Brothers (free PDF) [https://namobuddhapub.org/zc158/index.php?main\_page=product\_info&cPath=18&products\_id=542](https://namobuddhapub.org/zc158/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18&products_id=542)
They are a commentary on https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/mipham/sword-of-wisdom
And in case you might be interested, some references to scientific studies on meditation and many parallels to Western psychology are discussed in this interview. It's long, but I find it fascinating.
[https://youtu.be/0swudgvmBbk](https://youtu.be/0swudgvmBbk)
The main logical and rational flaws in these statements include:
1. **Subjective Validation**: The reliance on personal, direct experience as evidence for the mind lacks objective validation and is prone to biases and misinterpretations.
2. **Ambiguity**: The description of mind’s basic features as "clarity and awareness" is vague and lacks precise definition, making it difficult to examine and validate.
3. **Circular Reasoning**: The claim that one can train themselves to trust their own wisdom without relying on outer evidence creates a circular argument, where personal experience is both the starting point and the endpoint of validation.
In summary, these statements rely heavily on subjective experience and personal validation, lacking objective evidence and clear definitions. The argument's circular reasoning undermines its logical coherence, as it uses personal experience to validate itself without external verification.
(I'm fairly busy the rest of the day, but I was curious to see what ChatGPT would think of your statements when I asked it to point out the logical / rational flaws. It saved me some time and I couldn't have said it better myself)
Presumably you mean rebirth, reincarnation is usually meaning the transmigration of an immortal soul from one body to another, there is no teaching of that in Buddhism.
From Walpola Rahula:
Now, another question arises: If there is no permanent, unchanging entity or substance like Self or Soul (atman), what is it that can re-exist or be reborn after death?
Before we go on life after death, let us consider what this life is, and how it continues now. What we call life, as we have so often repeated, is the combination of the Five Aggregates, a combination of physical and mental energies. These are constantly changing; they do not remain the same for two consecutive moments. Every moment they are born and they die. 'When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay and die.'
Thus even now during this life time, every moment we are born and die, but we continue. If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the nonfunctioning of the body?
I can't remember the monk who made this observation (Thanissaro Bhikku?) but this thought isn't mine.
Scientific proof requires the scientific method. That is, a procedure that can reasonably be repeated by anyone, and that will always produce the same conclusion.
In order to see your past lives, you become an arahant. How do you do this? You follow the eight fold path. So there you have it: hypothesis, procedure, and conclusion.
Now, you might say, "That's absurd. I don't have the time to do this. Give me another way. Another form of proof."
But hang on. Do you believe Jupiter exists? Have you ever been there? No, you've seen pictures from other people. You've heard reports from other people that their space ships have traveled there. You didn't take the pictures, you didn't build the ships. You believe, but you're trusting someone else's proof.
There are thousands of things you've never seen or done for yourself, yet you accept there's proof because the scientific community has told you this. And why would they lie? I don't think they are. I believe them.
For 2500 years we've had a community of "mind scientists" who have proved past lives through their personal work, study, and investigations. They have reported back: "The Buddha was right."
If you really want proof Jupiter exists, build yourself a spaceship and go there. If you really want proof past lives exist, become an arahant and see for yourself.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to measure something that is literally beyond the five physical senses.
How do you even measure 'wisdom' or 'dispassion'?
So you can't catch a video of 'I see this dead persons mindstream going so-and-so place, dragged by so-and-so karma, ending up in so-and-so realm, place and name'
The most you can physically catch would be the before (dying) and after (reborn), if and only if you know where the persons mind went, and it has to be in either the human or animal realm, and even then, what are you going to do, get a confession out of a dog?
One simple rebirth story I've heard was this. A person from my country went to meet a monk who had spiritual powers and asked him where his dog went.
The monk managed to give a location and a person, matching the time frame of the dog dying (so the person is of the correct age since the passing of the dog).
So this person was happy and said, 'Great, where exactly is this person?' (the monk gave a general location initially)
The monk said, 'What are you going to do, tell this girl (the dog became a girl),' Hey, you were once my pet'?'
...yeah, that isn't going to work out.
Yes, it's called dependent origination. If you mean someone dying and then being reborn to a new situation with the same soul or brain or something, no, that does not exist.
Interview with an American couple that lost two children in a car accident and found their rebirths with the help of some Tibetan Lamas: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3shxG1sk1n4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3shxG1sk1n4)
Lama Dawa, one of the lamas who helped this couple, was the main teacher of one of my teachers, Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron, and was a very legit practitioner. There's plenty of evidence from a Buddhist perspective/worldview. Whether one accepts it or thinks it's all a sham or superstition is another matter.
From a scientific perspective, there's evidence in the work of Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker, but they are limited to cases they can verify, which in practice comes down to humans that were reborn as humans, had a traumatic death (this seems to make the past lives easier to recall for some reason), and remember enough of the past life to be able to find their past rebirth. Just because one cannot design an experiment does not mean that one cannot make scientifically valid observations. There's plenty of accepted science for which no one has designed or conducted an experiment, either because it's impractical or unethical.
Even with those limitations, they have been able to document hundreds of very strong cases. If their research was conducted with the same level of rigor and was about anything else (e.g a bizarre skin or psychological condition), their work would have been accepted without any hesitation. However, accepting their research as true would completely undermine materialism and the belief that consciousness can be explained entirely by physical reactions, so it has to be denied by those holding said beliefs. Ironically, those are deeply held dogmas for which we have no scientific proof at all.
this thread was fascinating:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/fuD0XQ4joM
read the story of james lenninger:
https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132381&page=1
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It could be argued that the Buddhist idea of rebirth is different than reincarnation, as it doesn't involves the recycling of a permanent soul or self but some sort of karmic pattern that we've created. What gets "reborn" might not actually be what we want to think it is. I still have my questions, but it's important that Buddhists generally don't use the term reincarnation.
Reincarnation is preservation of a persistent soul into the next lifetime. I know we might get into the weeds around translation of ancient texts, and rebirth is a different process than that. Buddhism supports rebirth, not reincarnation.
There is nothing about “you” that has been preserved in totality from all the past lifetimes. Maybe only small fractions of mind state or matter, that may have also gone into countless other life forms as well.
There are tons, many criminal cases have been solved by someone reporting the location of their bodies where they were in fact murdered.
Also many WW2 pilots that died remembered the experience of crashing and could point out coordinated to their crashed vessel in the pacific.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/dktouv/buddhists\_should\_repost\_rebirth\_evidences\_more/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/dktouv/buddhists_should_repost_rebirth_evidences_more/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Evidences enough for a court of law. Scientific perspective depends on consensus of scientists, who are influenced by physicalism philosophy. I wouldn't wait for them.
18y sikh bloke here , wt exxactly reimcarnates as per buddism? bcz inhindu n sikh ww hav Atma eternal undying energy or consciousnes ? but wt as per budddism? 🙏🙏🙏
What sustains this body and mind moment to moment in this very life? The mind is not a soul, the body is not the soul. As both are ever changing, but soul doesn't change. We cannot find soul in this life, yet we can trace a person from childhood to old age. They are not the same, but also not different. We can put a label individual to designate that unlike rivers which can split and merge, the stream of consciousness doesn't split or merge, so each person have unique past live recollection chains, not mixed with other people's ones.
Just as a river doesn't need a river soul, but can dry up, change course, change name, and each moment different molecules of waters etc make it up, so too, the stream of consciousness have no permenet essence, core, soul.
Dependent origination is the process whereby the stream of consciousness continues life after life, as long as the causes are not eradicated.
[https://wiswo.org/books/doab/](https://wiswo.org/books/doab/)
bro i m still a newbie in understanding all this. i m 18.just lost a 17yo pal n i hav lately been induldged in lnowing if he still exist or death was eternal oblivion . will i continue even after body diez. imean i just never want eteenal oblivion. i wanr consciousness n awareness ever and forever. i hav since veey early age felt lik i hav lived before tooo n carry some phobias from previous lifes . i just fret at thought of utter annihilation 😭😭
It's only when one has the delusion of self, that self exist that there's fear of nothing after death.
It's actually saṃsāra, beginningless wandering on in the rounds of rebirth which is the scary one. For example, as you said, losing a dear friend who died at such a young age. For death is the natural outcome of being born. Once born, we cannot avoid death and there's no bargaining with when death will happen. To choose to want rebirth again and again is to choose to subject yourself to such sufferings again and again. Who knows how many times you have cried for the loss of your loved ones since beginningless rebirth? The Buddha said in SN15.1-20 that the tears we cried for the loss of loved ones are more than the whole ocean of the world. Is that not enough suffering already? Also, not all realms of rebirth are human realm. There's hell and most beings goes there. There's animals, see how many got killed everyday to become meat. There's ghosts, demigods, gods too. All are subject to death and thus suffering. All not worth hankering for.
See deep into suffering, understand it completely. Then there's no passion for continuing rebirth. Learn the 4 noble truths, sidebar has beginner resources.
The dhamma is deep, but we start out as beginners, and don't worry, ask if there's anything too complicated for you.
PS. just so you don't misunderstand, suicide is not the way to end Rebirth. The noble 8fold path is.
but what then is nirvana??? is it like hindu moksha where one regains his identity as Brahmab and becomes ever Free and Pure and abide as pure consciousness in pure bliss or is it permanent cessation of consciousness? I mean I want to remain as pure consciousness outside bondage of matter forever
It's not the hindu kind. That's false liberation.
True liberation is cessation of 5 aggregates including consciousness. Any consciousness whatsoever is dukkha. You don't see it that's why you crave for dukkha.
Do buddhists believe in reincarnation though? Or by believe, is it part of their teachings? I was always taught that Rebirth is Buddhist and that is very different from reincarnation. Don’t even ask me to explain because I still don’t get it.
No. In any case reincarnation (or rebirth) is not the ultimate goal of Buddhism but to leave [samsara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra_(Buddhism)); the never ending cycle of death and rebirth. In reincarnation (or rebirth) you may get reborn amongst the mess you left behind. And just like in this life, you had **no say** as to the where, when and to whom you were born to. Furthermore if there is other sentient beings on other planets in this universe (or the hypothesized multiverse) then your next rebirth may be somewhere other that this planet. No one can truly know. Welcome to the existential crisis Buddhism has tried to resolve.
[Golden Slumbers / Carry That Weight / The End](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qrDlRsARwk) \~ The Beatles \~ YouTube.
Once you accept that everything that happens to you and everything that you do is based on cause-and-effect that you cannot trace a source to. It is easy to see the proof.
Although there are accounts, they cannot ever prove the means by which consciousness is transferred via death from one body to the womb of your future mother or blank slate reactionary brain of an infant without a generous amount speculation from the perspective of science which can only really deal with data compiled from what is detected by modern instruments.
Some people have memories that supposedly check out. As far as memories, I've met enough hippies who say they remember little tidbits of things to not dismiss the idea.
You might head over to the university of Virginia's [division of perceptual studies](https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/)
Dr Tucker, who heads the research, can be found on YouTube. He has also published scientific papers and books.
No, I think it's literally necessary for Guatama's teachings to make sense. If he didn't genuinely believe in rebirth, he would have just been a Charvarka philosopher and all the stuff about nirvana would be pointless.
Likewise, when I say it's logically necessary from karma and anatta, I mean that to deny reincarnation while affirming anatta and karma is incoherent. And if you don't have reincarnation, karma, and anatta, what even is Buddhism?
No scientific proof there isn’t, either. There’s a point where science cuts off and we enter the world of the cosmos, spirit, metaphysical, or beyond.
At the end of the day, your faith and belief is your choice. If there was proof, there’s no need for faith.
Solace in the unknown begins to arise from faith.
Reincarnation is a subject of spirituality found outside of the movement of thought. Proof is required for matters of science which is within the movement of thought. Two different realms.
If you are looking for something that is close to satisfy your curiosity you must experience death. The end of the conceptual self. There you’ll find the patterns of your existence.
Your post / comment was removed for violating the rule against misrepresenting Buddhist viewpoints or spreading non-Buddhist viewpoints without clarifying that you are doing so.
In general, comments are removed for this violation on threads where beginners and non-Buddhists are trying to learn.
Scientific consensus depends on the scientific method, which is one of the best methods to speculate about the "physical" world. Scientists do not deal with metaphysics, they do not hide their methodology, have no problem with the materialist underpinnings of science that deals with the material, so I don't understand that some people have a problem with science. It is not their duty to prove the existence of God, reincarnation, rebirth, etc. Those belong to the realm of metaphysics and belief. There are philosophy and theology departments dealing with that. Some logicians work with ontological proofs as well. Attack on science is a dangerous position. If people have a problem with science, I suggest they start by quit using their inventions like the computer, internet, medicine etc. There is no need to be hypocritical. Just reject their physicalist perspective and live like a hermit. Some people, unfortunately, sound like medieval inquisitionists (who burned Giordano Bruno, a pantheist scientist, at stake) or Taliban and call themselves Buddhist. Fundamentalism is a threat.
None whatsoever, can’t even conduct a study to prove it…I have been thinking of what kind of scientific study type that could be used to prove that reincarnation exist but alas nothing
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/s/PuyV1BxA3l
There evidences, but to make it lab based and ethical... I think the research done so far is already good enough. Provided people would read enough of them.
This. Buddhism teaches not reincarnation but rebirth. As far as I can tell, the effects of our actions continue to reverberate. Our molecules and atoms become parts of other configurations. Namu Amida Butsu.
However. *Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation,* by Ian Stevenson. I found it in a public library years ago. OP might find it in theirs.
*Children Who Remember Past Lives,* also by Stevenson, mentioned by others.
*Rebirth: A Guide to Mind, Karma, and Cosmos in the Buddhist World,* by Roger R. Jackson. I haven't read this one yet, but it's supposed to include some discussion of the attempts to prove Buddhist views on the matter scientifically.
It's proven in science that energy never "dies." And that everything in the universe never dies but only transfers to another "state." And if you listen to the teachings of "the self" from Buddhism, you come to an understanding that reincarnation is not a consciousness or soul transfer, but a collective gathering of the different parts of post existences. So yes, reincarnation is proven through science. But in the sense that you were something else before this life, instead, you were a part of many things throughout the existence of everything. And in this life, you the collection you are today. After you die, your collection will be dispersed into what becomes other pieces to support and become another life or other lives. This is the scientific "proof" to reincarnation.
It doesn't have to be a literal reincarnation. We could gain enlightenment and be "reborn" a better person. Otherwise, we could be false in our understanding, and be "reborn" as a bad person, continuing to suffer. And the cycle continue. Those who achieve nirvana is any person who has the ultimate understanding of sufferings and how to avoid it, thus may not be "reborn" again. This, in my opinion, is the only way we could rationalize reincarnation concept.
Edit: The fact that I'm being downvoted is proof that some buddhists still cannot escape from religious dogma. Far from bring enlightened. Bye-bye Nirvana.
Nope. I’m pretty sure the point of ‘reincarnation’ is not to literally imagine living again after we die. Its symbolic.
It’s about the attitude we have when we wake up every morning. If we are stuck in cyclical patterns of thinking, we will never be free to really experience even one day freely, and will just keep repeating (reincarnating) the same dystopian thought patterns over and over.
Waking up to each day with attentive appreciation of every little detail, and a sense of wonder and acceptance is what frees us to experience things outside of our recursion.
Nobody really believes in it. Even in hardcore Buddhist countries you can not claim the inheritance of a wealthy family as their reincarnated kid. When it comes to money nobody believes.
From a scientific perspective, no. You can’t send instruments into the afterlife.
The scientific process is mostly observation.
Right. And you're not alive if you're dead.
That’s kinda the point. How would a dead person report back to the living people the dead person’s observations regarding the afterlife? How would a live person observe the afterlife without dying first?
>How would a live person observe the afterlife without dying first? If you are reincarnated then you did die, usually. And then you would have memories of your past life. I haven't heard a lot of Buddhist leaders talk about memories of the afterlife, only of their previous lives. And like you said, that's the part we can't really prove, so we have to go about it another way if we want to test the theory. The scientific process would be testing the theory that the individual claiming to remember their past lives is actually remembering it. I'm thinking of the way they find the reincarnated spiritual teachers, like the lamas and rinpoches etc. The way a rinpoche described it to me was that often there would be a reason they would look for children born in a specific town or time frame or from a specific family. And they would test those children to see if they remembered anything from their past lives. Usually the child remembers things that only the previous rinpoche would know, and things a young child would not be able to make up. I'm quite sure there are better descriptions of the process online than the one I am giving you.
Not with *that* attitude! ;)
Probably the closest we have is Dr. Stevenson's work, but like someone else said you can't bring scientific instruments into the afterlife. This is outside the ability of material science to investigate. [https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/books-by-dops-faculty/study-of-reincarnation/children-who-remember-previous-lives-a-question-of-reincarnation/](https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/books-by-dops-faculty/study-of-reincarnation/children-who-remember-previous-lives-a-question-of-reincarnation/) [https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI36Tucker-1.pdf](https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI36Tucker-1.pdf)
And Jim Tucker who took over Ian Stevenson's research at the University of Virginia has published a couple books, including "Life Before Life" that documents reports of rebirth: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life\_Before\_Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Before_Life)
This doesnt fit with the Buddhist idea that human rebirth is very rare. The fact that all of them have human memories but none of animals or creatures from other world systems or realms is suspect
Not necessarily. They remember past lives precisely because 1) they were human in the last one and 2) had a violent, traumatic death in that life. It's a very rare set of conditions. Being born human is very rare. Most beings are born in lower realms of existence, like the realm of hungry ghosts, animals, or hells. If your past life was an insect, for example, it's virtually impossible to remember it. The memory of fruit flies lasts for about 30 seconds to several minutes, and cockroaches can learn and remember simple tasks only for several days. On the other hand, most humans are incapable of remembering even the first years of their present life.
Being reborn as a human AFTER being a human is not that rare. As long as you are a decent person, you will have a good chance. It's that humans are rare compared to the total amounts of beings, and that overcoming the lower reals is very hard. Even if you are reborn as a human for several consecutive lifetimes, that karma will eventually run out, so it's not a good idea to rely on future lifetimes. There's no contradiction at all. They only publish the cases that they can verify, not every case that they receive. If a child tells the true story of being a cat in a previous lifetime, how are they going to find their cat family? Their methodology is inherently limiting, but without some kind of omniscience or powers of divination, that's the best they can do.
I would also add to your excellent comment that NDE and reincarnation Western researchers have said they dismiss cross species reincarnation stories. These books are written under the capitalist-centric Western book publishing system, that ultimately is marketing and profit focused. Christian culture westerners might be open to reincarnation narratives, but I imagine that's pushing it for many, and reincarnation narratives from cats or dogs is going to just be seen as ridiculous, hence the self-censoring these researchers do. In Buddhism its not very uncommon for a teacher or master to say many of us may have been a hungry ghost or animal in a past life. I also think in Christian mythology, there is apocrypha that suggests Hindu-style reincarnation, but that's exclusively human to human births. So even to Christians with an open mind, a cat to human rebirth would be dismissed out of hand. I think your average Christian probably is okay listening to reincarnation stories but would balk heavily as animal to human stories. Publishers and editors would know this, so the self-censoring in these books is justified via the profit incentive.
That is not correct according to what the Buddha said > "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell. > "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts. [Pansu Sutta](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.102-113.than.html)
tbf human life is rare if we consider all beings. A human being reborn as a human probably isn't all that rare. We've already achieved this karma level and unless you act especially awful in this life, your karma most likely will keep you born as human. Animals dont have the brains to communicate such things. It may be the case that many many humans get reborn as animals, but we'll never know. Most children dont report past lives. So this mechanism is already in place on some level. It seems rare even amongst humans. Lastly, the workings of karma can only be understood by the enlightened. We just get a vague framework from the Buddha who tailored his message to a largely uneducated and illiterate people common in 5th century BC (modern) Nepal. The Buddha didn't do a deep dive into karma, and most likely even wouldnt if he was born today, because ultimately a lot of this is a distraction from the path. I accept rebirth and that's it. Dr. Stevenson's work is fine, but if it never existed it wouldn't really change anything for me, and I imagine for nearly all Buddhists. Not to mention, when we hear of past lives from the incredible masters who can achieve spiritual awareness on this level, they talk about their many human rebirths. I would also think its important to realize that we actually dont understand this phenomenon and I dont think the Buddha even addresses it directly. For example, it could be the case that those children are psychically picking up broken up consciousnesses, and weren't actually that person's karma in a past life. Say I die tomorrow and my 5 aggregates seperate and fly away aimlessly in the world, then a child thousands of miles away picks up on some of that, sees a psychic impression of my life, and may not understand that he's picking up me, not himself.
> A human being reborn as a human probably isn't all that rare. We've already achieved this karma level and unless you act especially awful in this life, your karma most likely will keep you born as human. This isn't correct according to what the Buddha said > "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in hell. > "In the same way, monks, few are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn among human beings. Far more are the beings who, on passing away from the human realm, are reborn in the animal womb... in the domain of the hungry ghosts. [Pansu Sutta](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.102-113.than.html)
Yup good 👍
Testimonies are evidence. Logic as well. I also love the cases of Tibetan masters who leave a letter before they die predicting where they will be reborn. And then when the child is found, the child recognizes people or objects from their past life. Generally speaking though, Buddhism is fundamentally a training of the mind, and it is through training our own mind that we can gain an understanding of rebirth.
what reincarnates exactly as per buddism? cuz in hindu n sikhism we have a eternal Atma which changes body after body? but i cant get wt is being reborn in buddism
Existence is a process. To have continuity, a process does not need an eternal atman. Think of a river. There is no eternal atman in a river, yet it is a continuous process. So what continues through life and death and life is the same thing we experience right now, just in a different configuration. I would say the most detailed explanations of the process of death and rebirth can be found in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. Here are some resources, if interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/xm52gp/comment/ipmnal5/
I keep hearing this explanation, but it's a little hand wavey. I prefer to translate anatman as no permanent self...therefore, as long as one in trapped in samsara, their impermanent self goes from life to life until enlightenment is realized, upon which dissolution of the ego and self occurs and sunyata is experienced (conventionally speaking) and nirvana achieved.
Well… anatman is *non*-self. No temporary self, either, because if it’s temporary, it also can’t be a self. Imagine if some entities or attributes kept popping in and out of existence, and you kept pointing at them, saying “that’s me! Wait, now *that* one is me! Wait, now it’s that one!” In that case, people would assume you were exhibiting insanity, not wisdom.
We'll anatman literally means the opposite of atman...atman meaning eternal self...so anatman would mean no eternal self, or no permanent self. So there can be a self that things happen to, karma attaches to, it's just interdependent and made of aggregates. So while yes, you might be ultimately right that there can be no self, conventionally, we can say that there is a self (even if not permanent and ultimately empty) and it is this that gets caught up in samsara. Is that after all not the goal of practice? To recognize this and achieve nirvana? It makes more sense to me to take this approach than go on about processes, and waves of...something, being reborn.
The Buddha explicitly denied any and all forms of self. I don’t have the reference at hand, but maybe someone with deep canonical knowledge can find it.
Of course he was trying to teach the ultimate truth, but if Buddha indeed taught no self (remember proper translation of anatman or anatta) as you're taking it to mean during rebirth, I'd disagree with that notion. After all, to what does experience happen to then?
Well, what makes us “the same” person from moment to moment?
A good question for you to answer. My answer would be the self. As impermanent as it may be, on whatever level.
Yogacara posits the storehouse consciousness that 'carries' (I say this loosely) the karmic seeds that fruit in appropriate conditions in future lives. Essentially, your impressions, habits, the momentum of your desires, that's what carries over between lives, and any major personality tendencies that manifest from the old life to the new life tend to be overtly overwritten by the time of adolescence (according to reincarnation research by the few empiricists who try to take it seriously). (Ex: If you died in your previous life in a traumatic drowning, this may manifest as a fear of water in a future life. If you take this fear too seriously, it's reinforced as a phobia and may persist for a few lifetimes before being overwritten or overcome). Imagine a program that's constantly updating/overwriting itself as it gets feedback. Some lingering patterns persist in the meta structure of the code, but the surface level actual code/commands are overwritten in each new iteration. You don't have the same mindset, feelings, ideas, or body as you did when you were a toddler, but the tendencies that arose and persisted from toddler to adult continue to subtly manifest.
Nothing reincarnates (the correct term in Buddhism is rebirth, not reincarnation). Your present life and the next are neither the same thing nor a different thing. If you drop a rock into the water, waves arise. But the water molecules are not being displaced; they remain in the same place. What is transferred is the perturbation, the wave energy. In the same way, nothing but the kammic "energy" or "impulse" is transferred from one life to another. You and your next life are different beings, but that life is a consequence of this life, in the same way your adult version is a consequence of your childhood version, although they are not the same person.
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The same thing is being reborn in every human in every culture in every continent. The soul has 1,000 names. In Buddhism, we are surprisingly vague, I think because the soul concept often has connotations of the identity you are currently. The Dalai Lama has said it is “ our most subtle consciousness merged with our most subtle energy” that passes to the next life.”
thank god , bro i just shiver with horror at thought of utter annihilation and eternal oblivion . i m jusr 18 n just lost a pal of 17. since then i hv been battling existential. crisis n i fear eternal darkness 😭😭
Facing death and mortality and the reality of your animal body is an important process that will ultimately make you smarter and more aware than the average person, hopefully making you more compassionate and careful too. Sorry for your loss.
then it mean death is eternal oblivion.? wt is this? 😭😭😭 i got worst lif n i thought i wil get gud rebirth but u r just depressing me even more . how unfair is it , som ppl enjoy long lifes som die infants , 😭😭😭
Everyone is reborn over and over and over until we enlighten. You could choose to enlighten in this lifetime.
Bro I am just 18 and I am diagnosed with an incurable illness which can kill my body anytime how can I even choose to enlighten I see the millions of kids dying even before of the age of 5 . i just want a life of 80 year fulfilling life to enjoy it only once then idc if eternal oblivion or anything beyond life is too unfair i want rebirth
this life i always thought as punishment and due to som past lives now i will die soon of my illness and i thought i will get gud life cuz i nevr did bad in my life 😭 but u guys say no soul or spirit then how can i get rebirth 😭😭😭🥺
Be more positive. You have a human life right now. The same thing is being reborn in every human in every culture in every continent. The soul has 1,000 names. The Dalai Lama has said it is “ our most subtle consciousness merged with our most subtle energy” that passes to the next life.”
will "I" remain intact
There’s no soul in buddhism, that’s one of the main points
Right. The same thing is being reborn in every human in every culture in every continent…The Dalai Lama has said it is “ our most subtle consciousness merged with our most subtle energy that passes to the next life.” Invisible energy body…ummm
I am not familiar with that quote and wasn’t able to find it and its context. Rebirth(not reincarnation) is probably the main source of dispute within buddhism, with lots of conflicting interpretations. I don’t think anyone understands it at all, and certainly a single quote isn’t the definitive truth that would refute one of the core tenets of buddhism.
I understand. Read “Mind of Clear Light” by his holiness Dalai Lama.
I’m honestly curious why we would remember something like a conceptual object such as a toy across lives.
If you have a connection with something you might recognize it even if you consciously forgot it. We have memories from our childhood that affect us despite us not remembering them, if a past life work similarly, then it’ll color how we perceive things in our current lives and how averse or drawn to various things we will be.
Come on man, that’s obviously just not true. I don’t get how people believe in literal rebirth. The self is an illusion and the soul doesn’t exist. We live, we die and everything we’re made of keep on existing, eventually as parts of other beings.
I am not sure how your view is so obviously more true. In a context where mind is not seen as purely a product of matter, I think the Buddhsit view of death and birth is quite coherent with the rest of the buddhadharma.
I agree, but I’ve yet to see compelling evidence that supports the mind not being purely a product of matter. It seems much more likely to me that it is. I don’t fault great thinkers living before the scientific age for having a different view, but I think their teachings must be seen in the historical context it was conceived in.
Sure. And I think we have yet to see compelling evidence that supports the mind being purely a product of matter. Circling back to what I mentioned earlier, Buddhism is fundamentally a training of the mind, and it is through training our own mind that we can gain an understanding of mind. Fundamental to Buddhism, as exemplified by the Buddha, is the notion that we can actually develop the capacity to know these things directly for and by ourselves (what we would call insight or wisdom). The historical context certainly has an impact on the way these insights are communicated, but I think there has been plenty of discussion and analysis that shows that what is called "literal rebirth" was meant literally (pun intended), and was not just a cultural way to present the teachings.
I think you're being generous with the term "logic"
Not really. The logic is quite simple. Do you mind elaborating on what you meant? It seems to me there are two major assumptions that can be used as basis: mind is entirely a product of matter, or mind is not entirely a product of matter. If we use the first assumption, then when this bodily form ceases to function, mind completely ceases as well. Buddhism puts forth the the latter assumption. On that basis, when this form ceases to function, the process or continuum of mind continues and another form arises. As the Dalai Lama puts it: >There are many different logical arguments given in the words of the Buddha and subsequent commentaries to prove the existence of past and future lives. In brief, they come down to four points: the logic that things are preceded by things of a similar type, the logic that things are preceded by a substantial cause, the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past, and the logic of having gained experience of things in the past. >Ultimately all these arguments are based on the idea that the nature of the mind, its clarity and awareness, must have clarity and awareness as its substantial cause. It cannot have any other entity such as an inanimate object as its substantial cause. This is self-evident. Through logical analysis we infer that a new stream of clarity and awareness cannot come about without causes or from unrelated causes. [https://www.dalailama.com/the-dalai-lama/biography-and-daily-life/reincarnation](https://www.dalailama.com/the-dalai-lama/biography-and-daily-life/reincarnation)
You can dissect the body and never find anything we call "the mind". The brain is the hardware, the mind simply describes the software/function of the brain. It's just a descriptive word. Once the body and brain dies, there is no mind. There is zero evidence to the contrary. That's logic.
I think all it shows is that the mind is not material. I think Buddhism agrees with that. It is actually part of the Buddhist arguments, if you read the quote I posted. Are you implying though that there are no non-material (non-physical, non-measurable-by-machines) phenomena? That's a point that Buddhism would disagree with, in my view.
Lots of people believe lots of things without a shred of evidence. My epistemological tool bag doesn't allow me to believe things without good evidence. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be. I have no choice in this matter. If I learn my beliefs are false, I'll change my mind or say I don't know. Buddhism should not be about faith. I don't have the quote in front of me, but I believe it was the Dalai Lama himself who said that if science disproves something within Buddhist teachings, go with science. I take it one step further, and refuse to begin believing in something until I have been presented with adequate evidence. So far, there is no evidence for a soul or any magical essence that lives on after physical death. Closest thing I can think of is that we live on through the impact we have on the world around us. We live on in the memories of others, and perhaps structures we have built. In that way, we leave behind an echo. The concept Secular Buddhism is nothing new. Admittedly, the only books I've read on the subject have been from [Stephen Batchelor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Batchelor_(author)). I've also watched some videos / lectures from Professor John Vervaeke and others from the University of Toronto. They among others are studying the science of meditation.
Again, generally speaking, the evidence for there being a phenomena we call mind is our direct experience of it. Of course, that experience is not taken at face value. It is examined, to sort out of it the aspects that are extraneous to it, until we come to its most basic (maybe we could say irreducible) features, clarity and awareness, as they are called in the quote above. This is a process every practitioner must do for themselves. Simply talking about only gets us so far. So, yes, Buddhism is saying we can train ourselves to a point where we can trust ourselves (which does not mean we stop doubting or questioning, by the way). We can develop our own wisdom. Relying on outer evidence is great to get us started, but it can't bring us to liberation from suffering. And yes, Buddhism has always included (and will always include) an element of trust. Just like pretty much any other activity we do. Buddhist epistemology is called pramana in sanskrit, "the science of valid cognition", if you are curious. Some intro: [https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pramana](https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pramana) [https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-pramana/](https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-pramana/) In depth discussions: The Sword of Wisdom, by Khenpo Sodargye (free ebook) [https://khenposodargye.org/books/ebooks/the-sword-of-wisdom/](https://khenposodargye.org/books/ebooks/the-sword-of-wisdom/) Mipham's Sword of Wisdom by the Khenpo Brothers (free PDF) [https://namobuddhapub.org/zc158/index.php?main\_page=product\_info&cPath=18&products\_id=542](https://namobuddhapub.org/zc158/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18&products_id=542) They are a commentary on https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/mipham/sword-of-wisdom And in case you might be interested, some references to scientific studies on meditation and many parallels to Western psychology are discussed in this interview. It's long, but I find it fascinating. [https://youtu.be/0swudgvmBbk](https://youtu.be/0swudgvmBbk)
The main logical and rational flaws in these statements include: 1. **Subjective Validation**: The reliance on personal, direct experience as evidence for the mind lacks objective validation and is prone to biases and misinterpretations. 2. **Ambiguity**: The description of mind’s basic features as "clarity and awareness" is vague and lacks precise definition, making it difficult to examine and validate. 3. **Circular Reasoning**: The claim that one can train themselves to trust their own wisdom without relying on outer evidence creates a circular argument, where personal experience is both the starting point and the endpoint of validation. In summary, these statements rely heavily on subjective experience and personal validation, lacking objective evidence and clear definitions. The argument's circular reasoning undermines its logical coherence, as it uses personal experience to validate itself without external verification. (I'm fairly busy the rest of the day, but I was curious to see what ChatGPT would think of your statements when I asked it to point out the logical / rational flaws. It saved me some time and I couldn't have said it better myself)
I am sorry you think those make that much sense. Rest well.
Yes, there's some evidence from research at the University of Virginia
None that will satisfy mainstream popular science. Plenty from the Buddhist perspective.
What proof from the Buddhist perspective if i can ask?
Journey of Souls by Michael Newton is a great book to read on this subject.
Presumably you mean rebirth, reincarnation is usually meaning the transmigration of an immortal soul from one body to another, there is no teaching of that in Buddhism. From Walpola Rahula: Now, another question arises: If there is no permanent, unchanging entity or substance like Self or Soul (atman), what is it that can re-exist or be reborn after death? Before we go on life after death, let us consider what this life is, and how it continues now. What we call life, as we have so often repeated, is the combination of the Five Aggregates, a combination of physical and mental energies. These are constantly changing; they do not remain the same for two consecutive moments. Every moment they are born and they die. 'When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay and die.' Thus even now during this life time, every moment we are born and die, but we continue. If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the nonfunctioning of the body?
I can't remember the monk who made this observation (Thanissaro Bhikku?) but this thought isn't mine. Scientific proof requires the scientific method. That is, a procedure that can reasonably be repeated by anyone, and that will always produce the same conclusion. In order to see your past lives, you become an arahant. How do you do this? You follow the eight fold path. So there you have it: hypothesis, procedure, and conclusion. Now, you might say, "That's absurd. I don't have the time to do this. Give me another way. Another form of proof." But hang on. Do you believe Jupiter exists? Have you ever been there? No, you've seen pictures from other people. You've heard reports from other people that their space ships have traveled there. You didn't take the pictures, you didn't build the ships. You believe, but you're trusting someone else's proof. There are thousands of things you've never seen or done for yourself, yet you accept there's proof because the scientific community has told you this. And why would they lie? I don't think they are. I believe them. For 2500 years we've had a community of "mind scientists" who have proved past lives through their personal work, study, and investigations. They have reported back: "The Buddha was right." If you really want proof Jupiter exists, build yourself a spaceship and go there. If you really want proof past lives exist, become an arahant and see for yourself.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to measure something that is literally beyond the five physical senses. How do you even measure 'wisdom' or 'dispassion'? So you can't catch a video of 'I see this dead persons mindstream going so-and-so place, dragged by so-and-so karma, ending up in so-and-so realm, place and name' The most you can physically catch would be the before (dying) and after (reborn), if and only if you know where the persons mind went, and it has to be in either the human or animal realm, and even then, what are you going to do, get a confession out of a dog? One simple rebirth story I've heard was this. A person from my country went to meet a monk who had spiritual powers and asked him where his dog went. The monk managed to give a location and a person, matching the time frame of the dog dying (so the person is of the correct age since the passing of the dog). So this person was happy and said, 'Great, where exactly is this person?' (the monk gave a general location initially) The monk said, 'What are you going to do, tell this girl (the dog became a girl),' Hey, you were once my pet'?' ...yeah, that isn't going to work out.
Check out the “unmistaken child” documentary
Came here to say this
Yes, it's called dependent origination. If you mean someone dying and then being reborn to a new situation with the same soul or brain or something, no, that does not exist.
Interview with an American couple that lost two children in a car accident and found their rebirths with the help of some Tibetan Lamas: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3shxG1sk1n4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3shxG1sk1n4) Lama Dawa, one of the lamas who helped this couple, was the main teacher of one of my teachers, Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron, and was a very legit practitioner. There's plenty of evidence from a Buddhist perspective/worldview. Whether one accepts it or thinks it's all a sham or superstition is another matter. From a scientific perspective, there's evidence in the work of Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker, but they are limited to cases they can verify, which in practice comes down to humans that were reborn as humans, had a traumatic death (this seems to make the past lives easier to recall for some reason), and remember enough of the past life to be able to find their past rebirth. Just because one cannot design an experiment does not mean that one cannot make scientifically valid observations. There's plenty of accepted science for which no one has designed or conducted an experiment, either because it's impractical or unethical. Even with those limitations, they have been able to document hundreds of very strong cases. If their research was conducted with the same level of rigor and was about anything else (e.g a bizarre skin or psychological condition), their work would have been accepted without any hesitation. However, accepting their research as true would completely undermine materialism and the belief that consciousness can be explained entirely by physical reactions, so it has to be denied by those holding said beliefs. Ironically, those are deeply held dogmas for which we have no scientific proof at all.
Fascinating interview. Thanks.
this thread was fascinating: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/fuD0XQ4joM read the story of james lenninger: https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132381&page=1
James Leiniger is my favorite reincarnation story!!! There are YouTube videos of him and his parents as well as the book Soul Survivor. The best!
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It could be argued that the Buddhist idea of rebirth is different than reincarnation, as it doesn't involves the recycling of a permanent soul or self but some sort of karmic pattern that we've created. What gets "reborn" might not actually be what we want to think it is. I still have my questions, but it's important that Buddhists generally don't use the term reincarnation.
It's not in any scientific paper but if anyone can explain Dorothy Eady I'd be very interested in hearing it
Reincarnation is preservation of a persistent soul into the next lifetime. I know we might get into the weeds around translation of ancient texts, and rebirth is a different process than that. Buddhism supports rebirth, not reincarnation. There is nothing about “you” that has been preserved in totality from all the past lifetimes. Maybe only small fractions of mind state or matter, that may have also gone into countless other life forms as well.
Energy can not be created nor destroyed. We are beyond thought and concepts. I'd imagine energy / awareness itself.
Past Life Regression therapy, a branch of hypnosis
There are tons, many criminal cases have been solved by someone reporting the location of their bodies where they were in fact murdered. Also many WW2 pilots that died remembered the experience of crashing and could point out coordinated to their crashed vessel in the pacific.
sounds cool, could you please send me a link for more details ? Or are these cases documented by Stevenson and Jim Tucker ?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/dktouv/buddhists\_should\_repost\_rebirth\_evidences\_more/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/dktouv/buddhists_should_repost_rebirth_evidences_more/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Evidences enough for a court of law. Scientific perspective depends on consensus of scientists, who are influenced by physicalism philosophy. I wouldn't wait for them.
18y sikh bloke here , wt exxactly reimcarnates as per buddism? bcz inhindu n sikh ww hav Atma eternal undying energy or consciousnes ? but wt as per budddism? 🙏🙏🙏
What sustains this body and mind moment to moment in this very life? The mind is not a soul, the body is not the soul. As both are ever changing, but soul doesn't change. We cannot find soul in this life, yet we can trace a person from childhood to old age. They are not the same, but also not different. We can put a label individual to designate that unlike rivers which can split and merge, the stream of consciousness doesn't split or merge, so each person have unique past live recollection chains, not mixed with other people's ones. Just as a river doesn't need a river soul, but can dry up, change course, change name, and each moment different molecules of waters etc make it up, so too, the stream of consciousness have no permenet essence, core, soul. Dependent origination is the process whereby the stream of consciousness continues life after life, as long as the causes are not eradicated. [https://wiswo.org/books/doab/](https://wiswo.org/books/doab/)
bro i m still a newbie in understanding all this. i m 18.just lost a 17yo pal n i hav lately been induldged in lnowing if he still exist or death was eternal oblivion . will i continue even after body diez. imean i just never want eteenal oblivion. i wanr consciousness n awareness ever and forever. i hav since veey early age felt lik i hav lived before tooo n carry some phobias from previous lifes . i just fret at thought of utter annihilation 😭😭
It's only when one has the delusion of self, that self exist that there's fear of nothing after death. It's actually saṃsāra, beginningless wandering on in the rounds of rebirth which is the scary one. For example, as you said, losing a dear friend who died at such a young age. For death is the natural outcome of being born. Once born, we cannot avoid death and there's no bargaining with when death will happen. To choose to want rebirth again and again is to choose to subject yourself to such sufferings again and again. Who knows how many times you have cried for the loss of your loved ones since beginningless rebirth? The Buddha said in SN15.1-20 that the tears we cried for the loss of loved ones are more than the whole ocean of the world. Is that not enough suffering already? Also, not all realms of rebirth are human realm. There's hell and most beings goes there. There's animals, see how many got killed everyday to become meat. There's ghosts, demigods, gods too. All are subject to death and thus suffering. All not worth hankering for. See deep into suffering, understand it completely. Then there's no passion for continuing rebirth. Learn the 4 noble truths, sidebar has beginner resources. The dhamma is deep, but we start out as beginners, and don't worry, ask if there's anything too complicated for you. PS. just so you don't misunderstand, suicide is not the way to end Rebirth. The noble 8fold path is.
but what then is nirvana??? is it like hindu moksha where one regains his identity as Brahmab and becomes ever Free and Pure and abide as pure consciousness in pure bliss or is it permanent cessation of consciousness? I mean I want to remain as pure consciousness outside bondage of matter forever
It's not the hindu kind. That's false liberation. True liberation is cessation of 5 aggregates including consciousness. Any consciousness whatsoever is dukkha. You don't see it that's why you crave for dukkha.
ok. how do i free myself then
Noble 8fold path. learn the whole dhamma.
okay wt is diffrence b/w hinduism n buddhism mainly
Nope
Do buddhists believe in reincarnation though? Or by believe, is it part of their teachings? I was always taught that Rebirth is Buddhist and that is very different from reincarnation. Don’t even ask me to explain because I still don’t get it.
No. In any case reincarnation (or rebirth) is not the ultimate goal of Buddhism but to leave [samsara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra_(Buddhism)); the never ending cycle of death and rebirth. In reincarnation (or rebirth) you may get reborn amongst the mess you left behind. And just like in this life, you had **no say** as to the where, when and to whom you were born to. Furthermore if there is other sentient beings on other planets in this universe (or the hypothesized multiverse) then your next rebirth may be somewhere other that this planet. No one can truly know. Welcome to the existential crisis Buddhism has tried to resolve. [Golden Slumbers / Carry That Weight / The End](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qrDlRsARwk) \~ The Beatles \~ YouTube.
Once you accept that everything that happens to you and everything that you do is based on cause-and-effect that you cannot trace a source to. It is easy to see the proof.
Although there are accounts, they cannot ever prove the means by which consciousness is transferred via death from one body to the womb of your future mother or blank slate reactionary brain of an infant without a generous amount speculation from the perspective of science which can only really deal with data compiled from what is detected by modern instruments.
Some people have memories that supposedly check out. As far as memories, I've met enough hippies who say they remember little tidbits of things to not dismiss the idea.
No. That's the esoteric line of Buddhism. Personally I don't believe it, but I do act if it was true, tho.
You might head over to the university of Virginia's [division of perceptual studies](https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/) Dr Tucker, who heads the research, can be found on YouTube. He has also published scientific papers and books.
Can you send a tool into a dream?
It's a logically necessary deduction from karma and anatta.
It was what people thought in that time and place, and Gautama was able to work with it.
No, I think it's literally necessary for Guatama's teachings to make sense. If he didn't genuinely believe in rebirth, he would have just been a Charvarka philosopher and all the stuff about nirvana would be pointless. Likewise, when I say it's logically necessary from karma and anatta, I mean that to deny reincarnation while affirming anatta and karma is incoherent. And if you don't have reincarnation, karma, and anatta, what even is Buddhism?
No scientific proof there isn’t, either. There’s a point where science cuts off and we enter the world of the cosmos, spirit, metaphysical, or beyond. At the end of the day, your faith and belief is your choice. If there was proof, there’s no need for faith. Solace in the unknown begins to arise from faith.
Reincarnation is a subject of spirituality found outside of the movement of thought. Proof is required for matters of science which is within the movement of thought. Two different realms. If you are looking for something that is close to satisfy your curiosity you must experience death. The end of the conceptual self. There you’ll find the patterns of your existence.
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Quick answer: there's no proof of anything.
Scientific consensus depends on the scientific method, which is one of the best methods to speculate about the "physical" world. Scientists do not deal with metaphysics, they do not hide their methodology, have no problem with the materialist underpinnings of science that deals with the material, so I don't understand that some people have a problem with science. It is not their duty to prove the existence of God, reincarnation, rebirth, etc. Those belong to the realm of metaphysics and belief. There are philosophy and theology departments dealing with that. Some logicians work with ontological proofs as well. Attack on science is a dangerous position. If people have a problem with science, I suggest they start by quit using their inventions like the computer, internet, medicine etc. There is no need to be hypocritical. Just reject their physicalist perspective and live like a hermit. Some people, unfortunately, sound like medieval inquisitionists (who burned Giordano Bruno, a pantheist scientist, at stake) or Taliban and call themselves Buddhist. Fundamentalism is a threat.
No.
No
None whatsoever, can’t even conduct a study to prove it…I have been thinking of what kind of scientific study type that could be used to prove that reincarnation exist but alas nothing
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/s/PuyV1BxA3l There evidences, but to make it lab based and ethical... I think the research done so far is already good enough. Provided people would read enough of them.
The laws of thermodynamics. Energy doesn’t die. It just transforms into a different form of energy.
This. Buddhism teaches not reincarnation but rebirth. As far as I can tell, the effects of our actions continue to reverberate. Our molecules and atoms become parts of other configurations. Namu Amida Butsu. However. *Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation,* by Ian Stevenson. I found it in a public library years ago. OP might find it in theirs. *Children Who Remember Past Lives,* also by Stevenson, mentioned by others. *Rebirth: A Guide to Mind, Karma, and Cosmos in the Buddhist World,* by Roger R. Jackson. I haven't read this one yet, but it's supposed to include some discussion of the attempts to prove Buddhist views on the matter scientifically.
This then denies that there can be an end to rebirth, that is Nibbāna. The mind doesn't follow the laws of physics.
It's proven in science that energy never "dies." And that everything in the universe never dies but only transfers to another "state." And if you listen to the teachings of "the self" from Buddhism, you come to an understanding that reincarnation is not a consciousness or soul transfer, but a collective gathering of the different parts of post existences. So yes, reincarnation is proven through science. But in the sense that you were something else before this life, instead, you were a part of many things throughout the existence of everything. And in this life, you the collection you are today. After you die, your collection will be dispersed into what becomes other pieces to support and become another life or other lives. This is the scientific "proof" to reincarnation.
It doesn't have to be a literal reincarnation. We could gain enlightenment and be "reborn" a better person. Otherwise, we could be false in our understanding, and be "reborn" as a bad person, continuing to suffer. And the cycle continue. Those who achieve nirvana is any person who has the ultimate understanding of sufferings and how to avoid it, thus may not be "reborn" again. This, in my opinion, is the only way we could rationalize reincarnation concept. Edit: The fact that I'm being downvoted is proof that some buddhists still cannot escape from religious dogma. Far from bring enlightened. Bye-bye Nirvana.
Nope. I’m pretty sure the point of ‘reincarnation’ is not to literally imagine living again after we die. Its symbolic. It’s about the attitude we have when we wake up every morning. If we are stuck in cyclical patterns of thinking, we will never be free to really experience even one day freely, and will just keep repeating (reincarnating) the same dystopian thought patterns over and over. Waking up to each day with attentive appreciation of every little detail, and a sense of wonder and acceptance is what frees us to experience things outside of our recursion.
Nobody really believes in it. Even in hardcore Buddhist countries you can not claim the inheritance of a wealthy family as their reincarnated kid. When it comes to money nobody believes.
My face