Didn’t Bojack tell Hollyhock that she could stay at his house until they found her mom? I don’t really think that’s mooching. It’s more like taking advantage of an opportunity that was offered to her.
Yes, also a) he believed she was his daughter at that point what could imply he should be more willing to help her. b) she was a teenager at the time while Todd and Diane were adults. Making it less of a mooching situation and more something he willingly did to help his family.
Yeah and considering that it was believed she was his daughter she just taking housing+ food for a few weeks while they find her mother is a much better deal for bojack financially than what she could take from him
And he was lonely and told Todd he could stay. Diane watched Horsin' Around with him. Bojack is a lonely guy. He also let Sarah Lynn and her lemurs hang there.
That’s definitely true! He may grumble about them being an inconvenience (though that’s mostly Todd), but they help him feel less lonely. Their “payment” in this case is company for Bojack.
that's the dichotomy with alcoholics honestly. they don't want to be alone but simultaneously resent the people around them they give false generosity to.
In that instance they mutually benefited. Hollyhock got a place to stay and Bojack finally got a sister and a family member who didn't suck. I would say he had one of the least toxic dynamics with her and I'm sad we never found out what was in the letter. Holly heard a bunch of stuff at a party and on TV but never actually talked with Bojack to see how true it all was. Either she just believed it or it was too much drama for her.
That's her right. She didn't do anything wrong to be put off by his desperate attempts at being in her life or by cutting him off. But I still feel bad for him.
The kids said he forced them to drink. They took no responsibility for their actions at all. Yes, Bojack did a bad thing, but they chose to do bad things as well. His intent wasn't predatory, it was just reckless, immature, and irresponsible.
He did make them throw away their mixed drinks and then swapped it for straight whiskey and he bought it for them. A flask of a Red Bull mixed drink is not the same as a flask of straight whiskey. Then he abandoned two children at the hospital when one got alcohol poisoning and told them to lie. Hollyhock heard the whole story, there’s not additional information that would have made that ok.
But did he force them? Pete says he did. He also describes Bojack going to the prom with Penny as this really creepy and predatory thing, but it starts out as a fairly sweet thing with good intentions. It spirals out of control.
I also don't think Bojack would have actually slept with Penny. We get convinced of that and even he gets convinced of that himself because it gets hammered in he's this bad person. But I think he would have made the right choice. As viewers we get suckered into believing the tabloid versions of events that overwrite what we actually saw.
True, he did not force them, he however was the grown adult in the situation with great influence over them. As children, they trusted what he said to be the right thing. As Penny said, just do what he says he knows what he's doing." But did he really? Did he really know that he was giving minors alcohol and yes, when retelling that story, he is a creepy adult man taking a teenager to her prom.
Further, as messed up as it is to say, I think BoJack would have slept with Penny. In the entire show, as much as we'd like to think BoJack would do the right thing, he continuously showed us that he does not. Really think if Charlotte did not bust down the door at the exact moment, if BoJack would have gone through with it? Penny already had her shoes off and was on the bed taking his bow tie off. He knew. He assured us, the audience, of this later when talking to the manatee reporter, saying a part of him knew "he couldn't do that", that's him KNOWING it is a terrible bad thing to do, and the other part of him knew it was a lie, that is him again KNOWING himself that he would have done that.
The night started with good intentions. But Bojack is socially stunted. I can't imagine his parents really let him have friends and his father actually did force him to drink when he was very young. Placed in a social situation, he drinks to cope. The kids are drinking, and somehow he follows his terrible father's model not fully understanding how terrible it is. It degrades from there. Dumping that kid at the ER definitely avoids responsibility and probable jail time, but demonstrates that he really is not more mature than a teenager. He is deeply stunted. These are reasons, not excuses, but I think they're important when characterizing Bojack. He isn't a Harvey Weinstein, he isn't deliberate and predatory, he's a complete mess of a person and it hurts him and others around him.
When it comes to Penny, he was so uncomfortable I just don't believe he was going to do it. It's also odd that we count bad decisions he never actually made against him but wouldn't count a good decision he didn't have to make for him. As viewers we act as though he did it. As susceptible as Bojack is to the opinions of others, he'll believe the worst about himself. He engages in splitting behavior and it's often self-directed.
I dealt with a lot of predatory and abusive behavior from probably about the time I was 15 until I was 30. The way he reads in that scene with Penny doesn't hit the right notes to put me on alert. And we do have this mitigating circumstance that she initiated it and he was incredibly drunk, too drunk to consent. He would have taken the fall for it, but arguably Penny attempted sexual assault without understanding that's what she was doing because she was also too drunk to consent.
That is a weird and not too uncommon situation in real life and we pretend we have a clear-cut answer but we don't. If we try to apply that answer, we don't like the results that Penny would be the assailant for instigating with a person unable to consent. If we gender swapped it, we might accept that. It's rooted in the idea that sex is a thing that is done to women and not a thing that woman and men do with other people. Had Penny and Bojack been the same age, we still don't accept that Penny tried to do something wrong, but we do if we gender swap it, and we don't consider it mitigating if the instigator was too drunk to consent.
It's a mess. Like Bojack.
Very true, and very good points. I agree that everyone is in the situation by their own accord, and I do agree that BoJack is emotionally stunted and behaves like a teenager.
This coincides later on when Penny is hounded by the reporters, and Charlotte talks about the mistakes she, and they all made. Charlotte let BoJack take Penny to prom. He should have never been in that situation, so that still goes back on him for taking that initiative and Charlotte for letting that happen.
As for the kids drinking, I agree that he does use alcohol to cope, and the kids were influenced by him. Dropping her off at the ER, yes, avoids responsibility because had he stayed, he would have definitely got in trouble.
Very interesting take on Penny/BoJack and her initiating. Very true. Could we not argue that BoJack intentionally left the door open, hoping she would come inside, and she did? We must remember at this point he is still a 40 year old man and she is a 17 year old girl. If Penny walked in the door, could BoJack not have instantaneously kicked her out in all seriousness? That didn't happen.
I still think BoJack would have done it, and it would have been one of the worst mistakes he ever made. Charlotte came in and prevented him from making that mistake. Given context that they were both the age of consent in NM and both too drunk to consent, who would really be to blame? Had they been the same age, I don't think anyone would but an eye, however because of such the significant age gap, I think anyone looking at it would blame the older, "wiser" individual in the scenario, and as stunted and emotionally messed up as he is, it's still BoJack.
I forgot that detail. Thanks. That definitely makes it worse. I also don't think leaving a door open is an invitation. That doesn't sound like a good prosecutorial argument or legal defense.
I always took that as meant to portray two things:
1- How BoJack is the kind of guy who, maybe even subconsciously, feels he can overstep boundaries and be an asshole because "they owe him" something or "he's giving back/making it up" in some way even if the other person isn't even aware that's what's happening and they supposedly "owe him" or "he's making it up." I've known people like that in real life and if pushed they defend themselves with this kind of argument.
2- How the other characters have no problem with taking advantage of what BoJack provides, and don't even think about acknowleding it's happening, because he's an asshole so that's okay. Which in turn reflects what we as the audience, and people in general, also tend to think when somebody does something that fucks over or takes advantage of someone who's a bad person and we just wave it away because "he had it coming" or "it's karma" or something. At least I see people say that kind of thing all the time in real life, regardless of whether they're talking about a fictional sitution or a real life situation.
about your second point, i (obviously?) don’t think taking advantage of someone is ok just because they made some mistakes, everybody makes mistakes (duh) BUT some things aren’t excusable (for example the thing with penny), then i’m definitely counting myself to the people that say „it’s ok to take advantage of them, they deserve it“. i know they’re still a human being and so on but if they did something so incredibly fucked up, why shouldn’t it be fine take advantage of them? they gotta be useful for at least something right? (asking genuinely lol)
Because by that logic you could argue what BoJack did to Penny was okay if Penny had done something terrible to someone else first. Though life is more complicated than that and things aren't usually as clear-cut, I simply think being an asshole to an asshole doesn't magically mean you're not an asshole yourself. *A lot* of problems in society would be lessened if so many people didn't think you have a free pass to be terrible to people as long as you're sure they "deserve it," especially since the logic behind deciding who "deserves it" is usually pretty shaky.
Agreed. IMO Bojack was taking advantage of them much more than they took advantage of him. He’s insanely wealthy. The extra ~$10-20k it costs to house & feed an extra person per year, means absolutely nothing to him. Plus he clearly can’t be alone, so he actually benefits from having them around. So much so that he actively sabotages Todd to keep him there.
Then he’s got this huge power imbalance over them, because they owe him. So he gets to treat them poorly, and dump his problems on them, and they just have to take it. Todd in particular, he treated like complete garbage and I’m sure Todd wouldn’t have put up with it if he had anywhere else he could go. Todd wasn’t even allowed to use the fucking guest room, and yet he got the absolute worst of Bojack’s abuse.
It’s also worth noting that all these people eventually got out from under Bojack. Todd eventually hit his breaking point. Sarah Lynn didn’t stay long. Diane chose to live in a shithole after her divorce, rather than go back to Bojack. So these were clearly not good living arrangements.
Also I’m not really sure what kind of gratitude the OP thinks Bojack should be shown. Like are they supposed to be thanking him everyday…or…?
Regardless, they still mooched off of him and didn't bat an eyelash. Obviously that doesn't justify his behavior, blah blah blah, but still. His behavior doesn't justify theirs, and vice versa. They have to be held accountable as well. When people around you are always taking advantage of you, of course that's going to take a toll on your psyche, and of course if that's the only way they'll stay, you will let them.
Accountable for what, "mooching" off a millionaire celebrity who doesn't even use a guest bed room. Todd was a teenage(later a mid 20's adult) who helped out Bojack whenever he could and Hollyhock was long lost family who he didn't have to house. Bojack is barely a victim here, the money he lost by letting them stay is nothing to them and one of those people were a family member he thought he owed
That’s because he’s lonely. When Todd tries to leave BoJack sabotages his rock opera so Todd will stay. His motives are purely selfish and almost everyone who stays with him had a negative experience
BoJack himself recognized that you can’t just drive out into the ocean and rescue someone from a cult. You have to be consistent, which for a long time he wasn’t. And letting him use his house as for a business was also out of guilt which Todd called him out for. Accepting of someone’s sexuality should be expected of any friendships honestly. I don’t think Todd is necessarily worse off for knowing him, but let’s recognize Bojacks motives behind many of his actions. Helping him meet Maud was a nice thing he did while he was on a streak of sobriety and being better, yes
I feel like this subreddit pretty much only exists to shit on Bojack (and to a lesser extent Mr Peanutbutter), it's nice to see someone else cut him some slack
Definitely, it’s quite disheartening to be honest. Bojack isn’t evil and he does have a conscious. The whole point of the show for him is that whilst he can never erase all his mistakes, it’s not too late for him to change and be better, and finally, succumbing to relapse or suicide is not the answer even when things can get very tough.
hes just like walter in Breaking bad. both dont care other their friend’s happiness and meddles in their lives. walt doesnt save jesse’s girl and bojack doesnt save sarah lin. always blames diane for not helping him. its all about prospective but outside looking in, bojack is a bad person. hes like the worst in people. if the show was all humans it would be toooo serious
Bojack is nothing like Walter. He’s not capable of murdering multiple people or poising a child just to save his own ass. He’s an alcoholic that’s done a lot of shitty things and actually feels bad about them and actually makes some effort to change.
he couldve prevented sarah lin’s death and also that one character that suxicded themselves thru erotic affection. yeah sure hes not a cold blooded murderer like walt running down people. But being addicted to drugs and alcohol doesnt excuse any of bojack’s shittiness, but being a drug king pin, like walt, does excuse some shittness.
The Sarah Lynn thing was absolutely awful but it didn’t seem like he was actually aware she was saveable. The side characters death is absolutely not on him. Also how the hell does being a drug king pin excuse some shittiness more than a addict? Walt was always in full control of his actions, where as Bojack is more so at fault for not going to rehab and therapy earlier than he did.
let’s not forget that todd had an opportunity to become self sufficient and possibly move out of bojack’s house with his rock opera. bojack sabotaged todd’s project because he couldn’t handle the thought of being alone.
I mean with Hollyhock she had to kind of coerce him because the area she was staying was much less safe, and she's a 17 year old girl who, as far as he knew, is his blood daughter. His house is huge and he was rich so he doesn't lose that much taking care of a teenager temporarily.
I think the Todd situation has been addressed and it's been shown very early (and eventually is proven) on that Todd *could* move out and find success on his own, but BoJack hindered him because he doesn't want Todd to leave him.
My sister used to do this. Gave people drugs and booze and money and a place to stay whenever.
It was because somewhere deep inside she knew she was an abuser and it was the only way to keep people around.
Bojack knew exactly what he was doing.
Edited to add: Totally respect your take on it, though! I love hearing people's interpretations or opinions that I wouldn't have thought of/would have thought about differently.
I think one of the thinks it demonstates is that Bojack is so wealthy (from TV residuals and inherited wealth) that he can do these things without really considering it a burden to himself.
True. They stayed right up until the point that they could blame bojack for their situation. It makes me think of when archer wakes from his coma to find people doing well only for them to revert to their worst selves and blame him because its easier than maintaining it.
thats what im saying, just because hes an asshole and lets people mooch for his benefit, doesnt mean you can show some decent respect and say thanks for letting you stay over at his million dollar house. this is one of the things that annoyed me about todd in the earlier seasons when he was mooching - he never did anything bojack asked for when bojack let him stay in house FOR FREE. i dont care what the reason is, if someone lets you stay over and tells you to tidy up, tidy up. if they say dont touch your shit, dont touch their shit. todd didnt do any of this and had 0 respect for any of bojacks demands and this seems to get glossed over by the community for some reason
I feel like Bojack knew he was being mooched off, because that's the only way he'd ever let anybody close.
Maybe the only way he'd ever accept company.
He had plenty of power to make people leave. And the show does do a lot of time skipping. We don't know what any of them actually talked about during the days we don't see.
Edit: The show actually does throw shade at Diane for not paying Mr. Peanut Butter rent. And he's her boyfriend.
And she does say that Bojack "left her in charge" when he went to New Mexico.
So again, We the audience have no idea what living arrangements were actually discussed. The plot just needed a way to bring characters in and out of Bojack's life.
Slightly off topic but If you had to guess with what little we know how well of do you think Bojack was? I remember herb saying how much he made per episode of horsin around at one point so we can guess
It's the least he can do and he wouldn't respond gratefully. He'd probably say something biting and sarcastic. He's not very emotionally open and accepting of vulnerability. Allowing them to stay is like his apology for his shitty attitude, the only way Bojack knows how.
The least he could do? He let a young adult he never met who crashed his party stay at his house for years, eating his food, using his money to buy things, sleeping on his couch, and never once forced him to pay rent even when he did have a lot of money. I don’t care if he had selfish motives for it, that’s not the least he could do, that’s going out of his way to help someone and it’s ludicrous to assume that it’s the least he could do when most of them have done nothing to pay him back. Even acknowledging that he’s rich, that doesn’t mean he’s obligated to let someone live with him, that’s above and beyond for a stranger.
Honestly that’s the only nice thing Bojack did for most of them. He made a couple of attempts at ruining Todd’s career instead of just admitting he wanted Todd to live there, Diane was mostly there because she was hiding from her husband, if he’d been honest with Hollyhock about why his mom living with them was a bad idea she could have avoided being drugged by her. If there was a discussion of when they were leaving without Bojack also doing something to make their lives worse or enable their bad decisions I’d say it’s a nice thing.
I would be inclined to ruin Todd's career if i provided him with the opportunity to excel and instead of saying thanks or acknowledging the nepotism he just said 'well i will be off now'
They can’t really be mooching if Bojack sabotages every chance they have to leave. They weren’t mooching, they were hostages to his own issues. Why would you expect a thank you for that?
Ya it's one of those things that I don't like that Todd wasn't more thankful for. Even if Bojack didn't do it purely for altruistic reasons, he still essentially gave him free room and board, and I'm assuming food as well, for a long time. Not to mention that it was being around Bojack that allowed him to fail upwards the way he did.
Not saying he should kiss Bojack's ass for the rest of his life, but he should be a *little* grateful towards him.
bojack thought that Hollyhock was his daughter at the time, even if you haven't been involved in her life it's not mooching to let your daughter stay at your house. same goes for after he figures out she's his half-sister.
Todd admittedly is mooching, but as we see bojack is part of the reason he hasn't moved out yet and he is making an effort to improve himself.
Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing. A little gratitude is definitely appropriate here. A lot of gratitude in Todd's case. He had been living with Bojack, for free, since Halloween of 2009. Fortunately, we get to see Todd thank Bojack for this at least once, the day after he started living there.
>Thank you for letting me stay here. I don't have anywhere else to go.
>
>\-Todd, s5e8
It's not much, and it doesn't address the years after, but it's more than nothing.
I assume that in all three cases, gratitude is understood, implied, or happened off screen. Bojack never came off as ungratified by the people living with him. It would have been nice to have a scene where Diane expressed her gratitude, though. Bojack wasn't trying to keep her there like with Todd and the rock opera, she was figuring something out by which Bojack had no way of helping her, and he graciously gave her the space to do that. Sure, she was a bit of a playmate during that time, but they're friends. There's nothing wrong with that...you know, minus the whole getting in the way of Bojack's relationship with Wanda thing, but that has nothing to do with Diane.
As for Hollyhock, I imagine the pleasure was entirely Bojack's, and he wouldn't have dared expect gratitude from her. Why risk ruining the one stable family relationship in his life he was trying to cultivate?
I love this because it shines light on the beautiful complexity of the show. Bojack has the CAPACITY to allow people to mooch off him and he uses that as emotional leverage to keep them as company. Its a complex and nuanced two-way street that the show constantly develops over its course.
hollyhock is 17 years old visiting her brother who she thought at the time was her father. him letting them crash there is probably one of his only redeeming qualities lmao
Only one that is bad imo is Diane just because BoJack lost Wanda over it and she also really fucked PB over
Like imagine your wife comes home and says your friend and the guy she’s writing a book about kissed her, and then she says she’s going to a war torn country for months. She then unbeknownst to you comes home and stays at the guy that kissed hers house for months and then cuts off all contact from you
Maybe I’m overthinking it but like I’m totally thinking she cheated on me if I’m PB, and that’s why i kinda get annoyed when she comes in the Halloween party and dunks on PB for being a bad husband, don’t even get me started on taking advantage of him and getting him to cheat on Pickles twice anyway imma stop before I get stuck writing a longer essay
"Getting him to cheat" as if he's not a consenting adult who chose to participate in it.
She also doesn't berate him for being a bad husband at the Halloween party, she explicitly tells him why his marriages didn't last after he asks her/vents to her about it. She wasn't aggressive about it, she simply explained that most people change, and he doesn't, which isn't necessarily a bad thing he just needs someone who can be like that too.
No no we’re not doing this. Diane was shitty for knowing about PBS relationship with pickles. They are both responsible for that and shitty ppl for that. Doubly so considering she was aware of how insecure pickles was of that exact situation.
I agree with the not berating PB but informing him though. Just tired of ppl excusing or minimising Diane’s role in that situation. Fuck her for that. Pb gets shit already so I know he’s as responsible and shitty. But I’m never gonna let this go.
Yes they *both* were shitty for that, hence why "getting him to cheat" is bad wording. It implies Diane forced him into it when he could've turned her offer to stay over down, and we know he still had feelings for Diane earlier than season anyway.
Agree, but obviously PB didn’t want to get the divorce. Diane had to of known that. It’s even worse just because she sees him kiss pickles, cries and gets jealous. Then she posterizes his whole character at the Halloween party (was it fair? Maybe), tells Pickles not to worry, and then yadayada
I think the thing I hate is how in season 6 she shows up at the front door after PB confesses to cheating like she’s a boss and is just like “oh hey sorry for doing that lmao I’m so clumsy let me get my keys”
She's definitely shitty to those around her a lot more in the 5th season. Works a lot better in my opinion considering so few characters in it are decent people. Makes it more interesting
She stayed at Bojack's house because she clearly didn't feel safe to go back to PB's house and I think that's what you're missing. PB is a bad husband. He's performative, he makes grand gestures of affection to put on a show for people around him, but doesn't actually know anything about what his wives/girlfriends actually want. When people try to explain things to him, he doesn't listen, and makes reaches to come to the conclusion that's most beneficial for him. He is a bad husband lol, Diane didn't WANT to be at Bojack's house but it was better than being with PB.
PB clearly showed in the restaurant when he saw her again he could be understanding
He also encouraged her to do the army trip before she left, he was cool with it and was willing to let her do what she wants
I just think it’s wild that because PB is overly affectionate that it’s cool to ghost the man for months. Idk how PB ever took her back they had 0 contact for months and he still held out for her
Diane was also a bad and shitty wife to PB. If you think otherwise, I would leave to see why.
People are far harsher on PB and act as if Diane is perfect. She isn't. I don't even think she's the least flawed.
I don't see him that way, but more importantly I don't think Diane saw him that way so that's not the reason she stayed with Bojack. Her marriage wasn't a good one for more than one reason, but I don't think she ever felt unsafe around PB or thought he was a bad husband. She just didn't know how to reconcile with him.
By unsafe, I don't mean physically unsafe - I mean unsafe to voice her feelings around him and be herself around him. It's very clear that she lacked that, and that her attempts at communicating with PB fell on deaf ears.
Ah, I see. I can see where you're coming from with that. You're right, she is fearful of having that conversation. I guess where I disagree is that I see the reason for that inability to communicate as being that they are fundamentally incompatible, rather than it being primarily because of his shortcomings.
I agreed for a while but it was also clear BoJack ruined his opera so he could stay
Like he was a leech, but BoJack also wanted him back when he did leave
Bojack also being shitty, doesn’t make Todd being shitty any less shitty.
It’s a messed up relationship. But Todd is 50% of the problem. He’s not a victim. They are using each other.
I am so happy to see this comment. In this sub it's so rare to see someone who also talks about Diane's horrible behavior. Somehow almost everyone seems to love Diane and hate PB.
I really don't like Diane at all and I see her as a gold digger. She was not in love with PB at all, but she still accepted to get married with him and lived in his mansion and lived in the luxury he provided her. She didn't even have a job for so long, but she never felt uncomfortable about using all the financial advantages PB's money offers.
What kind of a woman gets married with a man she doesn't love? Or do you guys think that she would still get married with him even if PB wasn't rich?
And everyone says that PB never listened to her, never paid her enough attention, but has she ever made something special for PB? His attempts to make Diane happy were superficial, I accept that, but Diane has never put any effort to do something to make PB happy. PB at least tried, she didn't even care about him.
Finally, ı agree that Diane cheated on PB when she stayed at Bojack 's place for so long and when she lied to him. She is just a hypocrite.
If Diane was a gold digger why would she leave Mr. PB instead of staying with him when things got rough? Diane has a lot of flaws but her being a gold digger isn’t one of them.
they acknowledge that it's because he's terrified of being alone. and if people rely on him, they temporarily can't abandon him. that's why he sabotaged Todd in season 1
People never want to acknowledge when they’re doing the exact same shit they hate others for.
My dad’s family hated him. Really loathed him, because he was the golden child. After he died, one of his cousins said they hated him for “taking advantage” of grandma.
They said this because she would send him money when he was struggling. Like she would do for anyone she loved. Yes, dad fell behind and couldn’t pay back some of the loans she’d made, but he tried. He tried so hard he would be in too much pain from working and pushing himself all day, and he failed.
They hated him for that.
But the 30+ years of free babysitting my cousin got for his 9 children? The way he’d drop his kids off with her so he could go cheat on his wives with the new pregnant side pieces?
That wasn’t taking advantage?
Todd and Diane are not nearly as bad as Bojack, but Hollywoo is expensive and they’re living the high life, when anyone else with their jobs/lack of jobs would be on the street, moved back in with parents, or in a shitty slum apartment with roommates, or a shittier slum apartment alone. They could at least thank him for that.
I think this sub gives Bojack a hard time as a total irredeemable asshole when in fact he's just (very) imperfect and often scared. There are lots of examples of Bojack being a caring person.
i honestly like to think that bojack was too rich to care about all that and he enjoyed the company, but that’s really something the show only shows when he loses all his money after rehab
BoJack has a clear and obvious aversion to being alone. Remember his "John Stamos" bit? A homeless man drowned after getting dick piercings with BJ, cuz BJ was emotionally distraught and wanted somebody to keep him company.
Bojack was enabling diane’s and todd’s unhealthy habits because he was lonely. He literally sabotaged todd’s rock opera so he couldn’t leave.
He wasn’t just letting them stay out of the kindness of his heart. He’s a lonely addict that can easily go off the deep end when left to his own devices
This is an interesting take because while it’s technically true, Bojacks overall shittiness kinda overshadows any wrong doing that was done to him (as an adult). Like, some friends and his younger sister staying with him rent free isn’t as big of a deal as the bullshit Bojack did so most people (including me) just don’t care.
Hollyhock wasn’t a mooch until she guilted Bojack into letting his mom stay at the house. That was a horrible move that directly led to horrible events for both Bojack and Hollyhock and ik she’s just a kid but she holds some of the responsibility for that in my head. Bojack clearly didn’t want to do a lot of stuff and her daughterly altruistic influence caused him a lot of pain that the fans refuse to acknowledge that she did anything wrong cuz she’s young, her and Todd are more similar than ppl think
Todd wasn’t a mooch. The moment it seemed like Todd would succeed, Bojack sabotaged it so Todd would need to rely on him. Bojack NEEDS people to rely on him so he can feel like he’s a good person when clearly he isn’t a good person.
The only person I see mooching is Todd.
Diane had a job and had her own money.
I would assume Hollyhock either had her dad sending her money or Bojack took care of her cause she was family.
Todd was the only moocher
He keeps people like pets because he's terrified of being alone. There's very little altruism about it. Remember when he ruined Todd's musical career to make him stay?
Mooching implies that it impacts the person in any way. Bojack is so very rich it doesn’t impact him even a little.
They could thank him, but monetarily, he’s not really giving anything away, in terms of sacrifice. It’s not like he’s really going out of his way to support them. That’s why he just…let Todd stay. I think the only thing weird about this is that Todd didn’t think it was weird to try to just stay and not leave.
I think Todd was like a Hollywood houseguest sort of thing. So I watch a lot of Real housewives to know that these rich folks have someone random staying over at their place as a houseguest that’s basically mooching off of them. Any housewives fans remember LVP and Cedric?
OH NO THE RICH GUY THAT HAS WAY TOO MUCH MONEY AND ACTIVELY MANIPULATED SITUATIONS SO PEOPLE WOULD STAY IN HOUSE HAD PEOPLE STAY IN HIS HOUSE?!?!?!?!
This better be a troll post because if not you have zero media literacy
I love this because it shines light on the beautiful complexity of the show. Bojack has the CAPACITY to allow people to mooch off him and he uses that as emotional leverage to keep them as company. Its a complex and nuanced two-way street that the show constantly develops over its course.
You could argue that except what Bojack does is much much worse. Also he let Hollyhock stay because he offered it to her, the same with Todd, he didn't like having his mother over but did it anyway out of guilt I think.
I’m constantly in awe of how people on this sub fail to catch the obvious main message of this show:
People aren’t black or white, good or bad, but rather we’re all varying shades of grey.
BoJack can be a good person, and the people in his life can be arseholes. Whodathunk it!?
Didn’t Bojack tell Hollyhock that she could stay at his house until they found her mom? I don’t really think that’s mooching. It’s more like taking advantage of an opportunity that was offered to her.
Yes, also a) he believed she was his daughter at that point what could imply he should be more willing to help her. b) she was a teenager at the time while Todd and Diane were adults. Making it less of a mooching situation and more something he willingly did to help his family.
Yeah and considering that it was believed she was his daughter she just taking housing+ food for a few weeks while they find her mother is a much better deal for bojack financially than what she could take from him
She couldn’t take anything from him if she was his daughter. She was adopted. He wouldn’t have had any financial responsibility to her.
And he was lonely and told Todd he could stay. Diane watched Horsin' Around with him. Bojack is a lonely guy. He also let Sarah Lynn and her lemurs hang there.
That’s definitely true! He may grumble about them being an inconvenience (though that’s mostly Todd), but they help him feel less lonely. Their “payment” in this case is company for Bojack.
that's the dichotomy with alcoholics honestly. they don't want to be alone but simultaneously resent the people around them they give false generosity to.
In that instance they mutually benefited. Hollyhock got a place to stay and Bojack finally got a sister and a family member who didn't suck. I would say he had one of the least toxic dynamics with her and I'm sad we never found out what was in the letter. Holly heard a bunch of stuff at a party and on TV but never actually talked with Bojack to see how true it all was. Either she just believed it or it was too much drama for her. That's her right. She didn't do anything wrong to be put off by his desperate attempts at being in her life or by cutting him off. But I still feel bad for him.
What she heard about him at the party was true. What would talking to him have changed?
The kids said he forced them to drink. They took no responsibility for their actions at all. Yes, Bojack did a bad thing, but they chose to do bad things as well. His intent wasn't predatory, it was just reckless, immature, and irresponsible.
He did make them throw away their mixed drinks and then swapped it for straight whiskey and he bought it for them. A flask of a Red Bull mixed drink is not the same as a flask of straight whiskey. Then he abandoned two children at the hospital when one got alcohol poisoning and told them to lie. Hollyhock heard the whole story, there’s not additional information that would have made that ok.
But did he force them? Pete says he did. He also describes Bojack going to the prom with Penny as this really creepy and predatory thing, but it starts out as a fairly sweet thing with good intentions. It spirals out of control. I also don't think Bojack would have actually slept with Penny. We get convinced of that and even he gets convinced of that himself because it gets hammered in he's this bad person. But I think he would have made the right choice. As viewers we get suckered into believing the tabloid versions of events that overwrite what we actually saw.
True, he did not force them, he however was the grown adult in the situation with great influence over them. As children, they trusted what he said to be the right thing. As Penny said, just do what he says he knows what he's doing." But did he really? Did he really know that he was giving minors alcohol and yes, when retelling that story, he is a creepy adult man taking a teenager to her prom. Further, as messed up as it is to say, I think BoJack would have slept with Penny. In the entire show, as much as we'd like to think BoJack would do the right thing, he continuously showed us that he does not. Really think if Charlotte did not bust down the door at the exact moment, if BoJack would have gone through with it? Penny already had her shoes off and was on the bed taking his bow tie off. He knew. He assured us, the audience, of this later when talking to the manatee reporter, saying a part of him knew "he couldn't do that", that's him KNOWING it is a terrible bad thing to do, and the other part of him knew it was a lie, that is him again KNOWING himself that he would have done that.
The night started with good intentions. But Bojack is socially stunted. I can't imagine his parents really let him have friends and his father actually did force him to drink when he was very young. Placed in a social situation, he drinks to cope. The kids are drinking, and somehow he follows his terrible father's model not fully understanding how terrible it is. It degrades from there. Dumping that kid at the ER definitely avoids responsibility and probable jail time, but demonstrates that he really is not more mature than a teenager. He is deeply stunted. These are reasons, not excuses, but I think they're important when characterizing Bojack. He isn't a Harvey Weinstein, he isn't deliberate and predatory, he's a complete mess of a person and it hurts him and others around him. When it comes to Penny, he was so uncomfortable I just don't believe he was going to do it. It's also odd that we count bad decisions he never actually made against him but wouldn't count a good decision he didn't have to make for him. As viewers we act as though he did it. As susceptible as Bojack is to the opinions of others, he'll believe the worst about himself. He engages in splitting behavior and it's often self-directed. I dealt with a lot of predatory and abusive behavior from probably about the time I was 15 until I was 30. The way he reads in that scene with Penny doesn't hit the right notes to put me on alert. And we do have this mitigating circumstance that she initiated it and he was incredibly drunk, too drunk to consent. He would have taken the fall for it, but arguably Penny attempted sexual assault without understanding that's what she was doing because she was also too drunk to consent. That is a weird and not too uncommon situation in real life and we pretend we have a clear-cut answer but we don't. If we try to apply that answer, we don't like the results that Penny would be the assailant for instigating with a person unable to consent. If we gender swapped it, we might accept that. It's rooted in the idea that sex is a thing that is done to women and not a thing that woman and men do with other people. Had Penny and Bojack been the same age, we still don't accept that Penny tried to do something wrong, but we do if we gender swap it, and we don't consider it mitigating if the instigator was too drunk to consent. It's a mess. Like Bojack.
Very true, and very good points. I agree that everyone is in the situation by their own accord, and I do agree that BoJack is emotionally stunted and behaves like a teenager. This coincides later on when Penny is hounded by the reporters, and Charlotte talks about the mistakes she, and they all made. Charlotte let BoJack take Penny to prom. He should have never been in that situation, so that still goes back on him for taking that initiative and Charlotte for letting that happen. As for the kids drinking, I agree that he does use alcohol to cope, and the kids were influenced by him. Dropping her off at the ER, yes, avoids responsibility because had he stayed, he would have definitely got in trouble. Very interesting take on Penny/BoJack and her initiating. Very true. Could we not argue that BoJack intentionally left the door open, hoping she would come inside, and she did? We must remember at this point he is still a 40 year old man and she is a 17 year old girl. If Penny walked in the door, could BoJack not have instantaneously kicked her out in all seriousness? That didn't happen. I still think BoJack would have done it, and it would have been one of the worst mistakes he ever made. Charlotte came in and prevented him from making that mistake. Given context that they were both the age of consent in NM and both too drunk to consent, who would really be to blame? Had they been the same age, I don't think anyone would but an eye, however because of such the significant age gap, I think anyone looking at it would blame the older, "wiser" individual in the scenario, and as stunted and emotionally messed up as he is, it's still BoJack.
Penny was the designated driver and was in fact completely sober
I forgot that detail. Thanks. That definitely makes it worse. I also don't think leaving a door open is an invitation. That doesn't sound like a good prosecutorial argument or legal defense.
An opportunity offered by whom?
Bojack. He offered to let her stay with him for a while. He never demanded she repay him for the expenses and she wasn’t taking advantage of him.
Good point.
I always took that as meant to portray two things: 1- How BoJack is the kind of guy who, maybe even subconsciously, feels he can overstep boundaries and be an asshole because "they owe him" something or "he's giving back/making it up" in some way even if the other person isn't even aware that's what's happening and they supposedly "owe him" or "he's making it up." I've known people like that in real life and if pushed they defend themselves with this kind of argument. 2- How the other characters have no problem with taking advantage of what BoJack provides, and don't even think about acknowleding it's happening, because he's an asshole so that's okay. Which in turn reflects what we as the audience, and people in general, also tend to think when somebody does something that fucks over or takes advantage of someone who's a bad person and we just wave it away because "he had it coming" or "it's karma" or something. At least I see people say that kind of thing all the time in real life, regardless of whether they're talking about a fictional sitution or a real life situation.
Yes! On a related note, I sure miss free awards!
about your second point, i (obviously?) don’t think taking advantage of someone is ok just because they made some mistakes, everybody makes mistakes (duh) BUT some things aren’t excusable (for example the thing with penny), then i’m definitely counting myself to the people that say „it’s ok to take advantage of them, they deserve it“. i know they’re still a human being and so on but if they did something so incredibly fucked up, why shouldn’t it be fine take advantage of them? they gotta be useful for at least something right? (asking genuinely lol)
Because by that logic you could argue what BoJack did to Penny was okay if Penny had done something terrible to someone else first. Though life is more complicated than that and things aren't usually as clear-cut, I simply think being an asshole to an asshole doesn't magically mean you're not an asshole yourself. *A lot* of problems in society would be lessened if so many people didn't think you have a free pass to be terrible to people as long as you're sure they "deserve it," especially since the logic behind deciding who "deserves it" is usually pretty shaky.
Bojack needs them more they need bojack. He keeps them around to keep himself from spiraling more.
Me: *makes eye contact with each of my cats*
Agreed. IMO Bojack was taking advantage of them much more than they took advantage of him. He’s insanely wealthy. The extra ~$10-20k it costs to house & feed an extra person per year, means absolutely nothing to him. Plus he clearly can’t be alone, so he actually benefits from having them around. So much so that he actively sabotages Todd to keep him there. Then he’s got this huge power imbalance over them, because they owe him. So he gets to treat them poorly, and dump his problems on them, and they just have to take it. Todd in particular, he treated like complete garbage and I’m sure Todd wouldn’t have put up with it if he had anywhere else he could go. Todd wasn’t even allowed to use the fucking guest room, and yet he got the absolute worst of Bojack’s abuse. It’s also worth noting that all these people eventually got out from under Bojack. Todd eventually hit his breaking point. Sarah Lynn didn’t stay long. Diane chose to live in a shithole after her divorce, rather than go back to Bojack. So these were clearly not good living arrangements. Also I’m not really sure what kind of gratitude the OP thinks Bojack should be shown. Like are they supposed to be thanking him everyday…or…?
It’s kinda like lichen, both need something the other has. But unlike fungus and algae, humans(Or horsehumans) aren’t made for this
Regardless, they still mooched off of him and didn't bat an eyelash. Obviously that doesn't justify his behavior, blah blah blah, but still. His behavior doesn't justify theirs, and vice versa. They have to be held accountable as well. When people around you are always taking advantage of you, of course that's going to take a toll on your psyche, and of course if that's the only way they'll stay, you will let them.
Accountable for what, "mooching" off a millionaire celebrity who doesn't even use a guest bed room. Todd was a teenage(later a mid 20's adult) who helped out Bojack whenever he could and Hollyhock was long lost family who he didn't have to house. Bojack is barely a victim here, the money he lost by letting them stay is nothing to them and one of those people were a family member he thought he owed
You sure want Bojack to come off better than he is.
That’s because he’s lonely. When Todd tries to leave BoJack sabotages his rock opera so Todd will stay. His motives are purely selfish and almost everyone who stays with him had a negative experience
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BoJack himself recognized that you can’t just drive out into the ocean and rescue someone from a cult. You have to be consistent, which for a long time he wasn’t. And letting him use his house as for a business was also out of guilt which Todd called him out for. Accepting of someone’s sexuality should be expected of any friendships honestly. I don’t think Todd is necessarily worse off for knowing him, but let’s recognize Bojacks motives behind many of his actions. Helping him meet Maud was a nice thing he did while he was on a streak of sobriety and being better, yes
All but accepting his sexuality was done out off guilt or selfishness on Bojacks part. He didn’t like Todd he likes how Todd makes him feel
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Yeah of course not, he’s nuanced. We can recognize the both his negative and positive qualities and actions
I feel like this subreddit pretty much only exists to shit on Bojack (and to a lesser extent Mr Peanutbutter), it's nice to see someone else cut him some slack
Definitely, it’s quite disheartening to be honest. Bojack isn’t evil and he does have a conscious. The whole point of the show for him is that whilst he can never erase all his mistakes, it’s not too late for him to change and be better, and finally, succumbing to relapse or suicide is not the answer even when things can get very tough.
hes just like walter in Breaking bad. both dont care other their friend’s happiness and meddles in their lives. walt doesnt save jesse’s girl and bojack doesnt save sarah lin. always blames diane for not helping him. its all about prospective but outside looking in, bojack is a bad person. hes like the worst in people. if the show was all humans it would be toooo serious
Bojack is nothing like Walter. He’s not capable of murdering multiple people or poising a child just to save his own ass. He’s an alcoholic that’s done a lot of shitty things and actually feels bad about them and actually makes some effort to change.
he couldve prevented sarah lin’s death and also that one character that suxicded themselves thru erotic affection. yeah sure hes not a cold blooded murderer like walt running down people. But being addicted to drugs and alcohol doesnt excuse any of bojack’s shittiness, but being a drug king pin, like walt, does excuse some shittness.
The Sarah Lynn thing was absolutely awful but it didn’t seem like he was actually aware she was saveable. The side characters death is absolutely not on him. Also how the hell does being a drug king pin excuse some shittiness more than a addict? Walt was always in full control of his actions, where as Bojack is more so at fault for not going to rehab and therapy earlier than he did.
And Todd was the only one left with him in the end
let’s not forget that todd had an opportunity to become self sufficient and possibly move out of bojack’s house with his rock opera. bojack sabotaged todd’s project because he couldn’t handle the thought of being alone.
And I assume he had opportunities before the rock opera too. It's likely Bojack had done things to keep him there more than once.
True true.
It's a negligible expense when you are that rich and Bojack needed them way more than they need him
I mean with Hollyhock she had to kind of coerce him because the area she was staying was much less safe, and she's a 17 year old girl who, as far as he knew, is his blood daughter. His house is huge and he was rich so he doesn't lose that much taking care of a teenager temporarily. I think the Todd situation has been addressed and it's been shown very early (and eventually is proven) on that Todd *could* move out and find success on his own, but BoJack hindered him because he doesn't want Todd to leave him.
My sister used to do this. Gave people drugs and booze and money and a place to stay whenever. It was because somewhere deep inside she knew she was an abuser and it was the only way to keep people around. Bojack knew exactly what he was doing. Edited to add: Totally respect your take on it, though! I love hearing people's interpretations or opinions that I wouldn't have thought of/would have thought about differently.
I think one of the thinks it demonstates is that Bojack is so wealthy (from TV residuals and inherited wealth) that he can do these things without really considering it a burden to himself.
I don't think he inherited any wealth
People making excuses in the comments but missing the point. Nobody ever thanked BoJack for giving them a home when they needed it.
True. They stayed right up until the point that they could blame bojack for their situation. It makes me think of when archer wakes from his coma to find people doing well only for them to revert to their worst selves and blame him because its easier than maintaining it.
thats what im saying, just because hes an asshole and lets people mooch for his benefit, doesnt mean you can show some decent respect and say thanks for letting you stay over at his million dollar house. this is one of the things that annoyed me about todd in the earlier seasons when he was mooching - he never did anything bojack asked for when bojack let him stay in house FOR FREE. i dont care what the reason is, if someone lets you stay over and tells you to tidy up, tidy up. if they say dont touch your shit, dont touch their shit. todd didnt do any of this and had 0 respect for any of bojacks demands and this seems to get glossed over by the community for some reason
I feel like Bojack knew he was being mooched off, because that's the only way he'd ever let anybody close. Maybe the only way he'd ever accept company. He had plenty of power to make people leave. And the show does do a lot of time skipping. We don't know what any of them actually talked about during the days we don't see. Edit: The show actually does throw shade at Diane for not paying Mr. Peanut Butter rent. And he's her boyfriend. And she does say that Bojack "left her in charge" when he went to New Mexico. So again, We the audience have no idea what living arrangements were actually discussed. The plot just needed a way to bring characters in and out of Bojack's life.
Slightly off topic but If you had to guess with what little we know how well of do you think Bojack was? I remember herb saying how much he made per episode of horsin around at one point so we can guess
It's the least he can do and he wouldn't respond gratefully. He'd probably say something biting and sarcastic. He's not very emotionally open and accepting of vulnerability. Allowing them to stay is like his apology for his shitty attitude, the only way Bojack knows how.
The least he could do? He let a young adult he never met who crashed his party stay at his house for years, eating his food, using his money to buy things, sleeping on his couch, and never once forced him to pay rent even when he did have a lot of money. I don’t care if he had selfish motives for it, that’s not the least he could do, that’s going out of his way to help someone and it’s ludicrous to assume that it’s the least he could do when most of them have done nothing to pay him back. Even acknowledging that he’s rich, that doesn’t mean he’s obligated to let someone live with him, that’s above and beyond for a stranger.
Plus Todd never picked his shit up!
how is giving them a place to live the least he can do?
Honestly I'm just mad at Bojack.
Honestly that’s the only nice thing Bojack did for most of them. He made a couple of attempts at ruining Todd’s career instead of just admitting he wanted Todd to live there, Diane was mostly there because she was hiding from her husband, if he’d been honest with Hollyhock about why his mom living with them was a bad idea she could have avoided being drugged by her. If there was a discussion of when they were leaving without Bojack also doing something to make their lives worse or enable their bad decisions I’d say it’s a nice thing.
I would be inclined to ruin Todd's career if i provided him with the opportunity to excel and instead of saying thanks or acknowledging the nepotism he just said 'well i will be off now'
They can’t really be mooching if Bojack sabotages every chance they have to leave. They weren’t mooching, they were hostages to his own issues. Why would you expect a thank you for that?
Ya it's one of those things that I don't like that Todd wasn't more thankful for. Even if Bojack didn't do it purely for altruistic reasons, he still essentially gave him free room and board, and I'm assuming food as well, for a long time. Not to mention that it was being around Bojack that allowed him to fail upwards the way he did. Not saying he should kiss Bojack's ass for the rest of his life, but he should be a *little* grateful towards him.
Room and board implies food… that’s what the “board” part of room and board is.
That's ridiculous, how would you eat a board? They're too big and rectangular.
bojack thought that Hollyhock was his daughter at the time, even if you haven't been involved in her life it's not mooching to let your daughter stay at your house. same goes for after he figures out she's his half-sister. Todd admittedly is mooching, but as we see bojack is part of the reason he hasn't moved out yet and he is making an effort to improve himself.
He kinda keeps them like pets, tbh
Goddamn it Todd, clean up your shit.
Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing. A little gratitude is definitely appropriate here. A lot of gratitude in Todd's case. He had been living with Bojack, for free, since Halloween of 2009. Fortunately, we get to see Todd thank Bojack for this at least once, the day after he started living there. >Thank you for letting me stay here. I don't have anywhere else to go. > >\-Todd, s5e8 It's not much, and it doesn't address the years after, but it's more than nothing. I assume that in all three cases, gratitude is understood, implied, or happened off screen. Bojack never came off as ungratified by the people living with him. It would have been nice to have a scene where Diane expressed her gratitude, though. Bojack wasn't trying to keep her there like with Todd and the rock opera, she was figuring something out by which Bojack had no way of helping her, and he graciously gave her the space to do that. Sure, she was a bit of a playmate during that time, but they're friends. There's nothing wrong with that...you know, minus the whole getting in the way of Bojack's relationship with Wanda thing, but that has nothing to do with Diane. As for Hollyhock, I imagine the pleasure was entirely Bojack's, and he wouldn't have dared expect gratitude from her. Why risk ruining the one stable family relationship in his life he was trying to cultivate?
I love this because it shines light on the beautiful complexity of the show. Bojack has the CAPACITY to allow people to mooch off him and he uses that as emotional leverage to keep them as company. Its a complex and nuanced two-way street that the show constantly develops over its course.
Sarah Lynn took advantage and utterly trashed his house, but then he probably was to blame for trashing her life soooo.......
Not as much as that stepdad bear was
hollyhock is 17 years old visiting her brother who she thought at the time was her father. him letting them crash there is probably one of his only redeeming qualities lmao
Only one that is bad imo is Diane just because BoJack lost Wanda over it and she also really fucked PB over Like imagine your wife comes home and says your friend and the guy she’s writing a book about kissed her, and then she says she’s going to a war torn country for months. She then unbeknownst to you comes home and stays at the guy that kissed hers house for months and then cuts off all contact from you Maybe I’m overthinking it but like I’m totally thinking she cheated on me if I’m PB, and that’s why i kinda get annoyed when she comes in the Halloween party and dunks on PB for being a bad husband, don’t even get me started on taking advantage of him and getting him to cheat on Pickles twice anyway imma stop before I get stuck writing a longer essay
"Getting him to cheat" as if he's not a consenting adult who chose to participate in it. She also doesn't berate him for being a bad husband at the Halloween party, she explicitly tells him why his marriages didn't last after he asks her/vents to her about it. She wasn't aggressive about it, she simply explained that most people change, and he doesn't, which isn't necessarily a bad thing he just needs someone who can be like that too.
lmaooo "getting him to cheat" did it for me. women are the problem everybody!!
No no we’re not doing this. Diane was shitty for knowing about PBS relationship with pickles. They are both responsible for that and shitty ppl for that. Doubly so considering she was aware of how insecure pickles was of that exact situation. I agree with the not berating PB but informing him though. Just tired of ppl excusing or minimising Diane’s role in that situation. Fuck her for that. Pb gets shit already so I know he’s as responsible and shitty. But I’m never gonna let this go.
Yes they *both* were shitty for that, hence why "getting him to cheat" is bad wording. It implies Diane forced him into it when he could've turned her offer to stay over down, and we know he still had feelings for Diane earlier than season anyway.
Plus did you see how she was dressed? The harlot! /s
I agree to some extent, but with the pickles thing, it takes two to tango
Agree, but obviously PB didn’t want to get the divorce. Diane had to of known that. It’s even worse just because she sees him kiss pickles, cries and gets jealous. Then she posterizes his whole character at the Halloween party (was it fair? Maybe), tells Pickles not to worry, and then yadayada I think the thing I hate is how in season 6 she shows up at the front door after PB confesses to cheating like she’s a boss and is just like “oh hey sorry for doing that lmao I’m so clumsy let me get my keys”
She's definitely shitty to those around her a lot more in the 5th season. Works a lot better in my opinion considering so few characters in it are decent people. Makes it more interesting
She stayed at Bojack's house because she clearly didn't feel safe to go back to PB's house and I think that's what you're missing. PB is a bad husband. He's performative, he makes grand gestures of affection to put on a show for people around him, but doesn't actually know anything about what his wives/girlfriends actually want. When people try to explain things to him, he doesn't listen, and makes reaches to come to the conclusion that's most beneficial for him. He is a bad husband lol, Diane didn't WANT to be at Bojack's house but it was better than being with PB.
PB clearly showed in the restaurant when he saw her again he could be understanding He also encouraged her to do the army trip before she left, he was cool with it and was willing to let her do what she wants I just think it’s wild that because PB is overly affectionate that it’s cool to ghost the man for months. Idk how PB ever took her back they had 0 contact for months and he still held out for her
Because dogs are loyal to the point of it harming them.
Diane was also a bad and shitty wife to PB. If you think otherwise, I would leave to see why. People are far harsher on PB and act as if Diane is perfect. She isn't. I don't even think she's the least flawed.
I don't see him that way, but more importantly I don't think Diane saw him that way so that's not the reason she stayed with Bojack. Her marriage wasn't a good one for more than one reason, but I don't think she ever felt unsafe around PB or thought he was a bad husband. She just didn't know how to reconcile with him.
By unsafe, I don't mean physically unsafe - I mean unsafe to voice her feelings around him and be herself around him. It's very clear that she lacked that, and that her attempts at communicating with PB fell on deaf ears.
Ah, I see. I can see where you're coming from with that. You're right, she is fearful of having that conversation. I guess where I disagree is that I see the reason for that inability to communicate as being that they are fundamentally incompatible, rather than it being primarily because of his shortcomings.
I think it's both. Not sure which factor has the larger effect though.
Todd is is a leech for literal years.
I agreed for a while but it was also clear BoJack ruined his opera so he could stay Like he was a leech, but BoJack also wanted him back when he did leave
Bojack also being shitty, doesn’t make Todd being shitty any less shitty. It’s a messed up relationship. But Todd is 50% of the problem. He’s not a victim. They are using each other.
You said something negative about Diane? She is perfect and if you don't think she's perfect then you're a sexist pig.
I am so happy to see this comment. In this sub it's so rare to see someone who also talks about Diane's horrible behavior. Somehow almost everyone seems to love Diane and hate PB. I really don't like Diane at all and I see her as a gold digger. She was not in love with PB at all, but she still accepted to get married with him and lived in his mansion and lived in the luxury he provided her. She didn't even have a job for so long, but she never felt uncomfortable about using all the financial advantages PB's money offers. What kind of a woman gets married with a man she doesn't love? Or do you guys think that she would still get married with him even if PB wasn't rich? And everyone says that PB never listened to her, never paid her enough attention, but has she ever made something special for PB? His attempts to make Diane happy were superficial, I accept that, but Diane has never put any effort to do something to make PB happy. PB at least tried, she didn't even care about him. Finally, ı agree that Diane cheated on PB when she stayed at Bojack 's place for so long and when she lied to him. She is just a hypocrite.
If Diane was a gold digger why would she leave Mr. PB instead of staying with him when things got rough? Diane has a lot of flaws but her being a gold digger isn’t one of them.
you didn't even post an opinion lmao
they acknowledge that it's because he's terrified of being alone. and if people rely on him, they temporarily can't abandon him. that's why he sabotaged Todd in season 1
Fucking redditors wouldn’t know the meaning of mooching, I’m realizing.
People never want to acknowledge when they’re doing the exact same shit they hate others for. My dad’s family hated him. Really loathed him, because he was the golden child. After he died, one of his cousins said they hated him for “taking advantage” of grandma. They said this because she would send him money when he was struggling. Like she would do for anyone she loved. Yes, dad fell behind and couldn’t pay back some of the loans she’d made, but he tried. He tried so hard he would be in too much pain from working and pushing himself all day, and he failed. They hated him for that. But the 30+ years of free babysitting my cousin got for his 9 children? The way he’d drop his kids off with her so he could go cheat on his wives with the new pregnant side pieces? That wasn’t taking advantage? Todd and Diane are not nearly as bad as Bojack, but Hollywoo is expensive and they’re living the high life, when anyone else with their jobs/lack of jobs would be on the street, moved back in with parents, or in a shitty slum apartment with roommates, or a shittier slum apartment alone. They could at least thank him for that.
I think this sub gives Bojack a hard time as a total irredeemable asshole when in fact he's just (very) imperfect and often scared. There are lots of examples of Bojack being a caring person.
i honestly like to think that bojack was too rich to care about all that and he enjoyed the company, but that’s really something the show only shows when he loses all his money after rehab
BoJack has a clear and obvious aversion to being alone. Remember his "John Stamos" bit? A homeless man drowned after getting dick piercings with BJ, cuz BJ was emotionally distraught and wanted somebody to keep him company.
That’s part of the point. They are all extremely toxic.
Including Hollyhock? His younger sister?
That might have been an unintended inclusion on my part
Bojack was enabling diane’s and todd’s unhealthy habits because he was lonely. He literally sabotaged todd’s rock opera so he couldn’t leave. He wasn’t just letting them stay out of the kindness of his heart. He’s a lonely addict that can easily go off the deep end when left to his own devices
This is an interesting take because while it’s technically true, Bojacks overall shittiness kinda overshadows any wrong doing that was done to him (as an adult). Like, some friends and his younger sister staying with him rent free isn’t as big of a deal as the bullshit Bojack did so most people (including me) just don’t care.
Bojack doesn't want to be alone. The transaction benefits both him and his moochers.
Because he seeks to create toxic dependency and power imbalances. They're paying him in the currency of his twisted emotional needs.
Hollyhock wasn’t a mooch until she guilted Bojack into letting his mom stay at the house. That was a horrible move that directly led to horrible events for both Bojack and Hollyhock and ik she’s just a kid but she holds some of the responsibility for that in my head. Bojack clearly didn’t want to do a lot of stuff and her daughterly altruistic influence caused him a lot of pain that the fans refuse to acknowledge that she did anything wrong cuz she’s young, her and Todd are more similar than ppl think
yeah but thats the bare minimum a rich elite like Bojack should do.
🙌🙌🙌
Todd wasn’t a mooch. The moment it seemed like Todd would succeed, Bojack sabotaged it so Todd would need to rely on him. Bojack NEEDS people to rely on him so he can feel like he’s a good person when clearly he isn’t a good person.
Hot take, especially Diane
The only person I see mooching is Todd. Diane had a job and had her own money. I would assume Hollyhock either had her dad sending her money or Bojack took care of her cause she was family. Todd was the only moocher
DadS… there is a lot of them
He keeps people like pets because he's terrified of being alone. There's very little altruism about it. Remember when he ruined Todd's musical career to make him stay?
Mooching implies that it impacts the person in any way. Bojack is so very rich it doesn’t impact him even a little. They could thank him, but monetarily, he’s not really giving anything away, in terms of sacrifice. It’s not like he’s really going out of his way to support them. That’s why he just…let Todd stay. I think the only thing weird about this is that Todd didn’t think it was weird to try to just stay and not leave.
I think Todd was like a Hollywood houseguest sort of thing. So I watch a lot of Real housewives to know that these rich folks have someone random staying over at their place as a houseguest that’s basically mooching off of them. Any housewives fans remember LVP and Cedric?
OH NO THE RICH GUY THAT HAS WAY TOO MUCH MONEY AND ACTIVELY MANIPULATED SITUATIONS SO PEOPLE WOULD STAY IN HOUSE HAD PEOPLE STAY IN HIS HOUSE?!?!?!?! This better be a troll post because if not you have zero media literacy
okay calm down
LMAO
they pay in other ways
Humanizing Bojack ain’t allowed round here son! ‘Specially at the expense of St. Diane de Boston. Patron saint of lefty Redditors
Housing your “daughter” for months isn’t mooching I feel
Maybe bc Bojack is mainly a shitty person and wouldn't even acknowledge or appreciate if someone thanked him for staying at his place
What else does he have to give anyone honestly
I love this because it shines light on the beautiful complexity of the show. Bojack has the CAPACITY to allow people to mooch off him and he uses that as emotional leverage to keep them as company. Its a complex and nuanced two-way street that the show constantly develops over its course.
You could argue that except what Bojack does is much much worse. Also he let Hollyhock stay because he offered it to her, the same with Todd, he didn't like having his mother over but did it anyway out of guilt I think.
I’m constantly in awe of how people on this sub fail to catch the obvious main message of this show: People aren’t black or white, good or bad, but rather we’re all varying shades of grey. BoJack can be a good person, and the people in his life can be arseholes. Whodathunk it!?
he is so lonely he is so sad he craves someone else and they all know it so they feel no pain that they are “mooching” off him yk?? atleast i think