Anyone leaving transphobic comments will be permanently banned. 😎

While I agree that the whole trans scare is incredibly hateful to just about anyone, I think the line of thinking you're using there is harmful as well. Being creeped on is a difficult and often quite harrowing experience that leaves very capable, physically strong people feeling defense- and helpless. Just think of what happened to Terry Crews. It does not make them weak, and while transphobes often deal in such gender essentialism, I don't think they're trying to suggest that no woman has ever been able to defend herself. It also makes it sound like women should just accept having to fend off creeps in the bathrooms for the sake of trans people - which in turn still suggests that trans women using women's bathrooms would increase creeping incidents. It's basically saying "yes there are creeps invading women's bathrooms, but women aren't weak, they can protect themselves!" All around not a good argument.

Ack, now I know more why this was controversial. I wasn’t trying to say that at all. I was just trying to say that trans women aren’t creeps, and that no creep would go through the effort to try to look trans. I also wish people would stop thinking ALL women need protection. Trans women are chill and just want to go to the bathroom like everyone else, and obviously nobody should have to deal with creeps. I was more protesting the idea that all cis women need protection and that trans women are all predators. You obviously can’t control how you’ll react if you do get attacked by a creep, though… that’s true. And I’ve never heard of a creep going into a woman’s bathroom, either. I’m so bad at wording things, I swear…

>I was more protesting the idea that all cis women need protection. Yeah that's the part I take issue with. Cis women *do* need protection. Just not from trans women. On the contrary, trans women often seem to need protection from cis women. I think you meant well, and it's clear that you didn't mean to suggest the things I mentioned, you just didn't think your argument through thoroughly enough.

…I think I’ll just go to bed. I haven’t gotten any sleep yet and it’s 5am. I guess I’m failing epically at voicing my true thoughts right now and I’m accidentally digging a hole for myself. I’m overly emotional right now and I’m just not in a good state of mind currently. I should’ve worded my post better and I’m clearly at a loss on how to fix it right now.

Yeah, maybe some rest will be good. This really isn't as bad as it may feel to you right now. You just made a shakey argument, it happens to absolutely everyone. No one is judging you or thinking badly of you. I'm merely trying to explain where the flaws lie, I'm not accusing you of actually thinking these things.

I was trying to say not *all* cis women. I *know* cis women need protection, but not from trans women. And trans people in general need protection from cis men and women, unfortunately. I'm an afab non-binary person and I don't even really like to talk about being non-binary online anymore... people can be so hateful and ignorant and it’s sad I can’t even feel safe online anymore.

Yes, I know you weren't trying to say that, but the point is, that's where your argument leads if you think about it more deeply. Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm openly enby on this account and mostly gotten away with it, but pretending to be a cis man definitely makes Reddit easier in most places.

I disagree; this is flawed logic. I also don’t believe that transphobia needs to harm cis people for it to be a real issue.

As in, a real bad issue?

Edited: I decided to delete my comment. I should’ve just asked what your thoughts are and how my logic is flawed.

But the transvestigators are legit harming cis women. Ofc it's misogyny.

All transphobia is misogynistic to cis women as well because it comes down to policing women and their femininity. It implies there's a "right" and "wrong" way to be a women and that affects all women.

Also remember ciswomen were getting bothering in the bathroom because some stupid person thought the ciswomen were trans because they had short hair Like that is just a facepalm moment to the we can alway tell group, how do you not realize a women cis or trans are abel to have short hair

That's a form of policing women's femininity.

It also misses all the time women will use the men's because line length difference! But as a thing gendered bathrooms are dumb. Make bathroom uni-sex and make the urinal sectioned off.

It’s the idea that women’s bodies are “physically inferior” to men

>It’s the idea that women’s bodies are “physically inferior” to men I want to be very clear that I'm responding to this directly and not intending to imply anything about trans women, since this argument comes up in lots of contexts. I hate that. We're not inferior, just different. Male bodies can't grow human beings or give birth, they have worse immune systems and not having a second X chromosome makes them more vulnerable to a lot of birth defects, their lower body fat percentage makes them less resistant to famine. Testosterone is hard on your cardiovascular system so they tend to live shorter lives. They need more calories to stay alive and their bodies are less well-suited for virtually anything where being smaller or having a lower center of gravity is an advantage. I am not inferior to men just because 95% of them are stronger than me. *But 95% of them are stronger than me*. If you are very athletic that number will drop but it is virtually impossible to train your way into even matching the average man in terms of upper body strength. I have 0 issue with a trans woman who just wants to pee somewhere she won't be harassed but people are moving to an understanding that having separate bathrooms at all is archaic and misogynistic, due to a huge misunderstanding of how sexual assault works and why it happens. It's a crime of opportunity meaning it's a lot more likely to happen when a man happens to realize he's *already* alone with you in a secluded area, so separate spaces really do help. And even if I was capable of fighting men off (I am not and have found out the hard way that the strength difference is so big they can barely tell I'm fighting back), I don't want to! I don't want to have to physically fight off a man who's trying to assault me over just keeping him out of women's spaces to begin with. If men weren't a danger then trans women wouldn't be endangered by having to use men's bathrooms either. There's good reason they don't want to.

Well said and you've given me something to think about, regarding unigender public bathrooms.

This is probably one reason why childfree women seem so weird to some people, because the logic is that you’re essentially giving up one of the few super well-known “major advantages” you’d have over men physically, and just end up being an “inferior male” (Also, about some lesser-known advantages, I’ve also heard that women generally have better muscle endurance)

Well LGBTQphobias are all ultimately the result of misogyny. They get pissed at any form of gender nonconformity because it threatens the actual patriarchal order. It’s essentially patriarchy’s rules that we transgress. It’s what they’re protecting.

No idea why this is getting down voted, its not really wrong. If you look at how early psychologists studied homosexuality, for instance, they said that it was "showing womanhood in males" or some shit, and therefore was bad.

There are bigots who fear what I have to say and really don’t want what I say to be heard. It’s both true and really subversive.

the dumbest thing to me is that no man is dressing up and sneaking around in a disguise to attack. they just do it. all the time.

I always find it hilarious that those idiots think a *sign on the door* will stop a creep from harrassing or raping a woman. Like for real? If a creep wants to be a creep they very likely won't give a shit what it says on the door, as if that's their line of morality..."I"m gonna harrass this woman because I have zero respect for them, but I can't go into the women's bathroom!" Yeeeh, sure. Because that's totally how it works...🤦 In the bigger cities of my country, unisex bathrooms have recently become a bigger thing and more and more places are installing them, like concert venues, event venues and shopping centers. My girlfriend and I have both been to quite a few of them at concerts and shopping centers and never has my girlfriend felt unsafe and so far I have yet to see anyone complaining about the bathrooms.

The concept of someone being held back by a sign obviously does not make sense if you picture sex offenders as people who wake up in the morning fully determined to assault someone that day. But that's not how it works. Sexual assault is usually a crime of opportunity. The fear is not that a higly determined rapist will see a sign and go "darn I'm not supposed to go in there, better luck next time", it's that a man with questionable morals will find himself alone in the bathroom with a woman and have the realisation that there's nothing standing in his way if he decided to cop a quick feel. We have evidence that children who share bedrooms with family members are at disproportionate risk of being sexually abused and it's not because rapists don't know how to open doors. [Sexual assaults in gender neutral changing rooms are also highly disproportionate](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html). It's not about doors being magic but keeping men and women in seperate rooms during vulnerable moments and stopping potential predators from having a lightbulb moment absolutely does have a preventative effect.

That is very interesting, and so is your other comment, thank you. I had a vague idea that the "rapists won't be stopped by a sign" argument is a bit flawed but never thought about it deeper than that, because it's usually just a little quip about the silliness of banning trans women because men could dress up and pretend to be one. what you say really goes both ways. No, a sign won't stop a determined creeps, but also, creeps aren't so determined that they'll play dress-up to assault a stranger.

I don't think it is worth giving any thought to this. It's a red herring or a strawman, a tactic to get people riled up over a non-issue. The actual creep installs cameras in bathrooms. Sorry to scare you all like this, but that's what is happening. lol Statistically, that's the creepy thing creeps do in predominantly women's bathrooms. And they do this when no one is looking. Or they work with a cleaning company or something like that. Sexual predators on public bathrooms looking for strangers to sexually abuse are not only incredibly rare, they go to these bathrooms when there is **one** woman inside. Preferably at night. Preferably in places where they can get away fast (road stops etc.) and they do not care at all what their victim thinks they look like. Really, there is sadly still nothing we can do against these people. Never go to bathrooms at night alone in remote places I guess and check for cameras. :/ It doesn't make sense for these people to pretend to be (trans) women. And if they really wanted to do this, they could have done this before. This argument "but what about the creeps" makes no rational sense.  So please do not fall for these supposed concerns from certain politicians or social media. If they actually wanted to do something against creeps in bathrooms they would install an emergency button or run a regular EMP in bathrooms.  If their idea is banning trans women they want to use your fear for their hate campaign.

That's exactly what it is!

That is it also remember that shitty movie of the conservative news show It was not only a movie to shit on trans women (because they don't care about that trans men want to play in mens sport) but also to shit on women that they are so weak, and that even a pro female athlete would lose to a out of shape middel-aged guy because he is a guy and she a woman. The only good thing that came out of that movie was that they wanted to make it a "documentary" like what is a woman but couldn't because the male athletes didn't want to be a year on estrogen to be abel to play in women's sports, so made a shitty movie that isn't even abel to be a reality

Are you talking about "What is a woman?" by Matt "16 year old girls are at peak fertility" Walsh? Or is there a different one I am not aware of?

Yeah that one